Illegal occupation rewarded

[RantyDave]

Oh, I'm going straight to hell for this one. But, look, I didn't write it OK. It was a proper journalist, who gets paid for journaling, and they should know better.

"Maori involved in the illegal occupation of two schools, including alleged vandalism and apparent theft of thousands of litres of water, are set to be rewarded with free land leases."

http://stuff.co.nz/4039169a10.html

Whohoo! You can't say that! It's ... it's ... it's .... true. See you all in Pointless Drivel!

Dave

[Grahameeboy]

Geeze..............if some KBers think it is okay to hang those 2 Anzac Day protesters then guess the same applys to these 'squatters'.....regardless of their claims they did not respect innocent neighbours by stealing from them......answer should be "No" and you will be attending Court for !@#$% offences..........

[Donor]

''They came to where we were occupying and they offered us the buildings with nil rent.

''We're sort of deciding whether to do that because it's not really what we want. We want the land back at no cost.''

What the fruck is the difference??

Bound to be a perpetual lease - christ on a stick, are they bloody stupid or what?

[paturoa]

2 wrongs don;t make a right

"The occupation was no more illegal than the Crown's unlawful confiscation in 1863, she said."

If it was illegal then use the process, otherwise feck off.

[BAD DAD]

I'm almost afraid of what will come out if I don't get off line right now..

[Grahameeboy]

2 wrongs don;t make a right

"The occupation was no more illegal than the Crown's unlawful confiscation in 1863, she said."

If it was illegal then use the process, otherwise feck off.

Too right......let them have their life back as it was in 1863...ban them from McDees,....and let them eat each other and then ask whether they are worse off...gggrrrrrrrrrrr..........

[kro]

I'm almost afraid of what will come out if I don't get off line right now..

right there with ya matey.

[Mr Merde]

Too right......let them have their life back as it was in 1863...ban them from McDees,....and let them eat each other and then ask whether they are worse off...gggrrrrrrrrrrr..........

Give them back the land. take away the buildings, the water system, the power and anything else later than 1863.

Make it so they cant sell the land to speculators.

Take awat the rights to visit the local pub, their drivers licence and cars, let them fucking walk

Basically return then to the fucking stoneage where they were before the European arrived in this country.

No modern schools, health service, KFC, TAB, DPB, or ay other three letter benifit.

And while they are at it get them to take those scum sucking polititians with them


:shit:

[Grahameeboy]

Give them back the land. take away the buildings, the water system, the power and anything else later than 1863.

Make it so they cant sell the land to speculators.

Take awat the rights to visit the local pub, their drivers licence and cars, let them fucking walk

Basically return then to the fucking stoneage where they were before the European arrived in this country.

No modern schools, health service, KFC, TAB, DPB, or ay other three letter benifit.

And while they are at it get them to take those scum sucking polititians with them


:shit:

I think the Maori Culture in isolation is wonderful but just think this land rights has gone on to far..............I mean look at Europe....the borders have changed many times over the centuries......do you see land rights being an issue now....."No".

Finders Keepers..losers weepers...

They want their cake and the icing and marzipan.

This is a wonderful country and this crap is spoiling it and compared to the Abo's and American Indians the Maori have nothing to complain about......plus some of those lost tribes that are being edged out....

[mstriumph]

- erm - i'm a Celt from Salisbury Plain ...... d'ya think there's any chance of me getting back the land the romans stole from us when they invaded? :dodge:

[Grahameeboy]

- erm - i'm a Celt from Salisbury Plain ...... d'ya think there's any chance of me getting back the land the romans stole from us when they invaded? :dodge:

He he.........only thing is the Romans no longer exist..............just like...nah not gonna say it....

[Mr Merde]

- erm - i'm a Celt from Salisbury Plain ...... d'ya think there's any chance of me getting back the land the romans stole from us when they invaded? :dodge:

I am a Celt also but I think we are on a lose there. Probably becauce the Celts stole it from the people who were there first.

:shit:

[Grahameeboy]

I am a Celt also but I think we are on a lose there. Probably becauce the Celts stole it from the people who were there first.

:shit:

Surely the Celts were the indegenous people...............I mean where is the evidence of a previous occupier.............

[mstriumph]

I am a Celt also but I think we are on a lose there. Probably becauce the Celts stole it from the people who were there first.

:shit:


not my lot bro, swapped it for a handful of beads and prolly their 2nd cousin's recipe for mead .... hey, times were hard!!



nahhh - on second thoughts we prolly married their daughters and inherited........

[Phurrball]

2 wrongs don;t make a right

"The occupation was no more illegal than the Crown's unlawful confiscation in 1863, she said."

If it was illegal then use the process, otherwise feck off.

What, like the crown used due process when picking the choicest Maori land as raupatu for the Maori being 'uppity natives'??

There is a difference between a lease in perpetuity and ownership in fee simple...if the land is Maori land, then its status is important WRT Te Ture Whenua Act 1993 and the Land Transfer Act.

As for the theft of utilities - that doesn't sound like flash PR if it's true. If the occupiers indeed did this, they should be investigated and prosecuted if a case is found.

If one looks into the history of land sale (often highly dubious dealings by the crown and pakeha settlers), confiscation, and annexation as 'waste land', it is hardly surprising that Maori in general, and specifically Taranaki Maori are a wee bit pissed...

I know this wee debate will get firey, but keep it seemly and we might stay out of PD!!

I'll be relying on my 'Tree hugging, stinking hippie, PC bullshit, commie' law student education. Leftie lawyers...sounds like a tui ad to me...

[Mr Merde]

Surely the Celts were the indegenous people...............I mean where is the evidence of a previous occupier.............

The Celts were a migratory race. Earliest remains found are from Switzerland at about 5000 BCE. Estimates are that they originated on the steppes of what is now Russia.

The first people in the UK, we bred them out, we killed them, we probably ate them.

Mmmmmmm

Any similarities with NZ history here??


Mr :shit:

[RantyDave]

- erm - i'm a Celt from Salisbury Plain ...... d'ya think there's any chance of me getting back the land the romans stole from us when they invaded?
Exactly. Where's the class action against the French for the Norman invasion? Or against the Norwegians for the Viking invasion?

More worrying still is the message it sends to history - or, rather, forward into the future. When arriving at a foreign land you have two choices: attempt to live in peace with the existing occupants; or round 'em up, put 'em in a field and bomb the bastards. We now know that the former course leads to lots of long term grief whereas the latter, well, let's just say that nobody appears on the telly saying "my people".

Dave

[RantyDave]

I'm almost afraid of what will come out if I don't get off line right now..
It's speed fours, man. They bring it out of you. Something about riding a bike that looks like a battering ram from the front.

Dave

[Grahameeboy]

The Celts were a migratory race. Earliest remains found are from Switzerland at about 5000 BCE. Estimates are that they originated on the steppes of what is now Russia.

The first people in the UK, we bred them out, we killed them, we probably ate them.

Mmmmmmm

Any similarities with NZ history here??

Mr :shit:


Ssssccccchhhhhh...don't tell the Maori cause they think it has only happened to them

[mstriumph]

Originally Posted by Grahameeboy
Surely the Celts were the indegenous people...............I mean where is the evidence of a previous occupier.............The Celts were a migratory race. Earliest remains found are from Switzerland at about 5000 BCE. Estimates are that they originated on the steppes of what is now Russia.
hey EVERYONE's forebears hadta come from SOMEWHERE :confused: ...
[
The first people in the UK, we bred them out, we killed them, we probably ate them.

Mmmmmmm perZACTly!!! so - as Grahameeboy says, WHERE is your evidence of a previous occupier :sick: :laugh: :woohoo: WE ARE THE INDIGIONOUS PEOPLE!!!!!!! - the aboriginal ukers!!


Any similarities with NZ history here?? :sunny:

[Mr Merde]

Every ones ancestors came from somewhere else.

Look at the remains they have been finding in Africa. 3 1/2 million year old ancestors of modern man.

Can I claim the continent of Africa.?

Homo Erectus drove out Nethandral Man from Europe, (except for in France where they still thrive in Paris)

Normandy belongs to England. Alsace-Lorraine to France and Germany, Basque territoy to Spain and France, South Africa races that moved down from Zim, the greeks owned the whole northern part of India at one stage and Italy. The Chinese werent native to the lands they now inhabit (Howick) :dodge:

Even the first settlers have been traced back genetically to the island of Taiwan.

As I said earlier.

The Stone Age becons, let them live there.


Mr :shit:

[Ixion]

..

Normandy belongs to England. ..

That part is completely factually correct. HM the Queen is , in quite different title, Duke of Normandy. It is just that the greater part of her Duchy has been subject , for some hundreds of years, to an illegal occupation by the followers of the Count of Paris.

[Phurrball]

Give them back the land. take away the buildings, the water system, the power and anything else later than 1863.

Make it so they cant sell the land to speculators.

Take awat the rights to visit the local pub, their drivers licence and cars, let them fucking walk

Basically return then to the fucking stoneage where they were before the European arrived in this country.

No modern schools, health service, KFC, TAB, DPB, or ay other three letter benifit.

And while they are at it get them to take those scum sucking polititians with them


:shit:

Ahh, that ol' intellectually weak argument.

Is that really the best you can do? Never mind that the crown made a legally binding treaty and flagrantly disregarded it...Hell, teh crown even made legislation and disregarded it

That'd be the difference between Maori and Celts, Australian Aboriginals etc

If you really think any culture would stay in stasis in some sort of neo-stone age, you're kidding yourself.

In your deal, how about pakeha give back all the produce they grew on maori land, all the resources they extracted etc, etc...that'd be a raw deal for both sides.

And for all those wishing to run down the labour govt and their Maori loving, PC social engineering - how about remembering that the National government have put through far more in the way of treaty settlements than labour EVER has - have a look at Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993 (passed when there was a red-headed pakeha minister of Maori affairs - Doug Kidd), for a piece of PC Maori-loving law. Ngai Tahu settlement anyone? National as well...

Go and read some history y'all - <a href="http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/category/tid/133">here's a good place to start.</a>

Learn cheery facts like Ngai Tahu getting less than a penny an acre for their south island land, nice, fair, honest dealings by the crown and pakeha there!

Also learn that the treaty is the legal basis for pakeha government, and the basis for our pakeha ancestor's being here. It's our treaty too. I'm pretty pleased that my ancestors were tangata tiriti, as am I and all the rest of us non-maori NZers.

[Mr Merde]

That part is completely factually correct. HM the Queen is , in quite different title, Duke of Normandy. It is just that the greater part of her Duchy has been subject , for some hundreds of years, to an illegal occupation by the followers of the Count of Paris.

To England I said. The Queen has no title to it. She is a kraut. Decendant from William of Orange.

Prior to WW1 the family name was Von Battenburg. They changed it to Windsor to make themselves more in tune with the English during the first war.


Mr :shit:

[The_Dover]

who let the fuckin hippy out of it's cage?

[Finn]

who let the fuckin hippy out of it's cage?

His Maori mother?

[Phurrball]

who let the fuckin hippy out of it's cage?

Oh, I'm safely in my cage...

Stay away from the UoA Law library and you'll be safe from infection with the socially-liberal, PC, tree hugging viruses that beset the halls of academia...

[Phurrball]

His Maori mother?

'Pure' Irish, Scottish and English derived Pakeha Tangata Tiriti here...no Maori mother in sight...

[The_Dover]

Oh, I'm safely in my cage...

Stay away from the UoA Law library and you'll be safe from infection with the socially-liberal, PC, tree hugging viruses that beset the halls of academia...

is that within range of grafton? say, using a decent 7.62 target rifle?

[James Deuce]

I say give it all back. If Maori run the country as well as they have Maori TV to date, we'll all be a lot better off.

[Mom]

2 wrongs don;t make a right

If it was illegal then use the process, otherwise feck off.

Yep, throw the book at them if it is true, I have no time for people that use history as an excuse to take something they have no right to!


Too right......let them have their life back as it was in 1863...ban them from McDees,....and let them eat each other and then ask whether they are worse off...gggrrrrrrrrrrr..........

Grahameeboy, I like you, yep there is a but, please educate yourself around the issues that the Maori have faced in this country, this counties past contains some incredibly shameful things in regards to the treatment of Maori. To attempt to simplify things to the "take them back to where they were" comment shows a real ignorance of what indeed happened. It can not be denied that serious wrong doings happened, land was taken, the people were treated appalingly for a long time, it happend, we have to own that! And we have, by way of the Waitangi Tribunal. There have been claims settled fairly, claims settled unfairly, claims that are still to be sorted, arguments heard and some still ongoing. It is about this time that I begin to get really pissed off with the protestors that think they can "bully" things along.


What, like the crown used due process when picking the choicest Maori land as raupatu for the Maori being 'uppity natives'??

There is a difference between a lease in perpetuity and ownership in fee simple...if the land is Maori land, then its status is important WRT Te Ture Whenua Act 1993 and the Land Transfer Act.

As for the theft of utilities - that doesn't sound like flash PR if it's true. If the occupiers indeed did this, they should be investigated and prosecuted if a case is found.

If one looks into the history of land sale (often highly dubious dealings by the crown and pakeha settlers), confiscation, and annexation as 'waste land', it is hardly surprising that Maori in general, and specifically Taranaki Maori are a wee bit pissed...

I know this wee debate will get firey, but keep it seemly and we might stay out of PD!!

I'll be relying on my 'Tree hugging, stinking hippie, PC bullshit, commie' law student education. Leftie lawyers...sounds like a tui ad to me...

This had better stay out of PD because I think it is a good disscussion to be had....:yes:

[Finn]

'Pure' Irish, Scottish and English derived Pakeha Tangata Tiriti here...no Maori mother in sight...

Have you checked the casino?

[Steam]

...and you'll be safe from infection with the socially-liberal, PC, tree hugging viruses that beset the halls of academia...

Sorry dude, you're not safe on KB either, I'm exactly that; A BA graduate in Philosophy and Politics, living in Wellington, voting Green, vegetarian, buddhist, heh, well at least I ride motorcycles.
Anybody who has three bikes can't be all bad eh?
(and before anyone asks, NO, I did not do the Anzac day thing, although I have met them at a party once.)

[Phurrball]

Have you checked the casino?

No, but I'm onto a winner with an Irish passport :)

[Phurrball]

Sorry dude, you're not safe on KB either, I'm exactly that; A BA graduate in Philosophy and Politics, living in Wellington, voting Green, vegetarian, buddhist, heh, well at least I ride motorcycles.
Anybody who has three bikes can't be all bad eh?
(and before anyone asks, NO, I did not do the Anzac day thing, although I have met them at a party once.)

Ah no, but it is fun - and even right-wing death-beasts can be good people worth knowing. A BSc and LLB is hardly liberlal arts...but snap on the vegetarianism and rabid love of motorcycles...

[doc]

Too right......let them have their life back as it was in 1863...ban them from McDees,....and let them eat each other and then ask whether they are worse off...gggrrrrrrrrrrr.......... Hang on I think all you racists are being a bit hasty here.
So you want us all to suffer, Hangi's taste like shit to me, give me the choices in an Asian food court any day.

[Finn]

A BA graduate in Philosophy and Politics, living in Wellington, voting Green, vegetarian, buddhist

How could someone manage to fuck up their life this much?

[The_Dover]

what's up, doc?

[The_Dover]

How could someone manage to fuck up their life this much?

I blame the GN..

[James Deuce]

Anybody who has three bikes can't be all bad eh?
(and before anyone asks, NO, I did not do the Anzac day thing, although I have met them at a party once.)

*Notes Steam down as having links to Peace Action Wellington*

But seriously; nothing, twist, knickers, your, a, getting, about, in

The more you feed into the radical end of the spectrum (and tbh these people sound like they had a drunken brain fart, not a plan per se) by reacting in an extreme fashion, the more extreme the demands get. There are a bunch of corporate and political organisations in NZ, built on Tikanga Maori principles that just get on with it, making no demands from anyone, just carving out there space in our world. There's more of them than there are people demanding a schoolhouse back.

Breathe deep.

The sky isn't falling.

[Mr Merde]

....

This had better stay out of PD because I think it is a good disscussion to be had....:yes:


I am in total agreement with you here.

I've noticd over the years too many people have pussy footed around this topic. I'm sorry if I'm vocal and come accross as a redneck but it really pisses me off having something that happened over 120 years before my birth, being trhown in my face as "my fault"

If there are any full blooded "first settlers" left then let them come forward to claim their heritage and rights.

Look at that wanker O'Regan. 1/32 Maori blood makes him a repressed minority. Bollocks it makes him a loud mouthed, self engrandising pratt who makes a very good living at being just that.

Too many people in this country are just looking for the easy way out. Lets steal anything we want and claim it as our right.

As far as I am concerned they are nothing but thieves and freeloaders looking to make a buck at the expense of those who have decided to put an effort into creating something for themselves.

Land belongs to no one.

We have a temporary lease on it but it will by far more than outlast us.

[paturoa]

Naki Daily News "They say the land the school is on was formerly part of the middle Taranaki confiscation district. " and "Hapu spokesman Tarawara Weston said that when the New Zealand Land Settlement Act (1863) was passed, all lands of tribes that the Government said was in rebellion was taken."

hmmm

and "Spokesman Vince Cholewa said that while the school had been put on the open market last year, new information had since been received and the school's future had been put back in the hands of the Office of Treaty Settlements (OTS)."

seems like they have a good cause - however ever heard of a court injunction??????

[Mom]

The Chinese werent native to the lands they now inhabit (Howick) :dodge:
Mr :shit:
I grew up in Howick, do you think I have a claim......lol



Oh, I'm safely in my cage...

Stay away from the UoA Law library and you'll be safe from infection with the socially-liberal, PC, tree hugging viruses that beset the halls of academia...

Take a bit of Mom advice, dont let them wind you up too much.

'Pure' Irish, Scottish and English derived Pakeha Tangata Tiriti here...no Maori mother in sight...


You and me both mate, though mine is Scots/Canadian Irish, I was not even born here...I have made NZ my home, reared my children here, and plan to spend the rest of my naturals here, but man I get pissed off when I see people attempting to use the "Maori - we were hard done by in the past card" to justify their illegal actions!:done:

[Phurrball]

Land belongs to no one.

Sorry to disappoint, but that abstract entity known as the Crown has underlying radical title to all NZ land.



We have a temporary lease on it but it will by far more than outlast us.

Sounds dangerously close to a tikanga Maori approach to me...ahh, good ol' Papatuanuku, our whenua.

I can't be arsed with the rest of your offensive generalisations and intellectually weak oversimplifications. I'll let them speak for themselves...

[James Deuce]

Hey Phurball - don't forget to differentiate between "The Crown" as a legal entity (statutes) and a political entity (Geo-Political entity - the British Empire fell over in 1947). One of them doesn't essentially exist any more.

One needs to get a good grip on that concept.

[Grahameeboy]

I have read and spoken to Maori about the land rights issue and my "take them back to..." was just making a wee point to put things in perspective.

Throught out history land has been fought over, won and lost and won back again so much so that the way land has changed on a map makes a mosaic loo like grid lines on 'Excel'.

As has been said before, there are plenty of other land cases in the world which could be argued and people were also treated badly.

I do know that during the war, the Govt did take land off Maori in the name of "the war effort" and has never given it back and I agree that this land should be returned and /or compensation given.

As for 1863....well most 'invaders' did not even look at a treaty and just took the land and in many cases would have killed those before them.......the American Indians being one example...........

Now some Maori chiefs signed the Treaty and some did not. The Maori's from what I have been told did get rifles which they used to kill their enemy so I guess it is what they expected to get out of the treaty, not necessarily what they decided later was actually a bad move because the original benefits became useless.

I just feel that things get taken out of proportion. There is evidence that the Maori were not the first people here. If they did kill those who were before them then they cannot really complain about their lot.........its the way of the world.

I guess being an immigrant it seems to be more about money than spiritual compensation in many cases and this is where for me they lose their credability.

This is a wonderful country, small population so a lot of good has evolved. None of us were present in 1863 so we should just look to the future and not allow the past, which is the past, to dictate the future.....it is part of NZ 's history yes and what we do now will become history and shape things to come.............

I love you too Mom

[Mr Merde]

Sorry to disappoint, but that abstract entity known as the Crown has underlying radical title to all NZ land.




Sounds dangerously close to a tikanga Maori approach to me...

I can't be arsed with the rest of your offensive generalisations and intellectually weak oversimplifications. I'll let them speak for themselves...

Till the Crown ceases to be. Italy belonged to the Roman Empire til it colapsed.


As to the second part I think you will find that a lot of old races believe the same thing. My ancestry, the Celts were a roaming people similar to the gypsy's of today. The North American Indian, the Viking, the Greek, the Mesopotainians all had a belief in the land.

It isnt a just a Maori belief though todays wasters would have us belive it so.

Most of these shit stirrers are living proof of the saying that

"the best part of them ran down the crack in their mothers arse and finished up as a stain on the sheet"

Mr :shit:

[The_Dover]

I can't be arsed with the rest of your offensive generalisations and intellectually weak oversimplifications. I'll let them speak for themselves...

have you run out of weed hippy? you sound a little confrontational tonight.

[terbang]

I'm still trying to get a chunk of Aberdeen...

[Phurrball]

Hey Phurball - don't forget to differentiate between "The Crown" as a legal entity (statutes) and a political entity (Geo-Political entity - the British Empire fell over in 1947). One of them doesn't essentially exist any more.

One needs to get a good grip on that concept.


Yep, talking of the former legal fiction - but you make an interesting point re semantics and the potential non-existence-in-fact of one of the parties to the Treaty.

(A bit like the difference between Government and government that I should remember from public law but don't)

[Disco Dan]

What a load of bollox.

How dare they vandalise schools and intimidate people! Who do they think they are! Maori? I thought they died out years ago. Only thing left of them now is half casts and the odd inbred.

Take them to the cleaners I say. Bloody freeloaders. Always out to better themselves by stealing and bitching.

[Phurrball]

(snip) There is evidence that the Maori were not the first people here. If they did kill those who were before them then they cannot really complain about their lot.........its the way of the world.

really? Please enlighten me on that one?


None of us were present in 1863 so we should just look to the future and not allow the past, which is the past, to dictate the future.....it is part of NZ 's history yes and what we do now will become history and shape things to come.............


Fair point, and I see where you're coming from, but -

the crown signed the treaty, the crown breached the treaty, and the crown is still extant today as a legal fiction allowing government of NZ - the crown breached the treaty with a number of acts of bad faith, so the crown needs to make ammends.

If we don't learn from the mistakes of history, we're doomed to repeat them. If you say you're making a legally binding treaty with a sovereign people as the ToW was made between Maori and the British crown, you can't change that fact as it suits you and breach the agreement wantonly.

(Do I get $1 for each use of 'crown'??)

[Maha]

Heard a story a easter....Maori family were talking at the gathering in which i was at...seems a great Aunty from the east cape has left them some land. How to divy it up was in question but the funniest part about i was, years ago (30 odd) great uncle sold some of his land for a Car!...dumbfuck? yes...fair deal?...No, but the deal was done, both parties were happy. The said family agree that he was ripped off....they feel it is worth at least 5 Cars now...no joke, they are serious.

[Phurrball]

As to the second part I think you will find that a lot of old races believe the same thing. My ancestry, the Celts were a roaming people similar to the gypsy's of today. The North American Indian, the Viking, the Greek, the Mesopotainians all had a belief in the land.

Yep, true that.


It isnt a just a Maori belief though todays wasters would have us belive it so.
Mr :shit:

I enver said it was so.

As for the rest - play nice. If you can't say something nice, don't say anything, or you'll be sent to the naughty step!!!

That's me, off home now, back tomorrow. Play nice without me. The Hippy's going back to the westie greenery...

[Grahameeboy]

really? Please enlighten me on that one?

The Moreori's.....

Fair point, and I see where you're coming from, but -

the crown signed the treaty, the crown breached the treaty, and the crown is still extant today as a legal fiction allowing government of NZ - the crown breached the treaty with a number of acts of bad faith, so the crown needs to make ammends.

If we don't learn from the mistakes of history, we're doomed to repeat them. If you say you're making a legally binding treaty with a sovereign people as the ToW was made between Maori and the British crown, you can't change that fact as it suits you and breach the agreement wantonly.

Was it really a mistake. We are talking about 1863 when the world was different so this mistake is unlikely to repeat itself.

I think what happened was that the CROWN did sign in good faith, however, every other tom dick and harry got on the NZ band wagon and it got a bit out of hand...plus some land rights are being honoured.

(Do I get $1 for each use of 'crown'??)

Sorry cannot count that high

............................

[Grahameeboy]

Heard a story a easter....Maori family were talking at the gathering in which i was at...seems a great Aunty from the east cape has left them some land. How to divy it up was in question but the funniest part about i was, years ago (30 odd) great uncle sold some of his land for a Car!...dumbfuck? yes...fair deal?...No, but the deal was done, both parties were happy. The said family agree that he was ripped off....they feel it is worth at least 5 Cars now...no joke, they are serious.

Holdens or Toyota's??

But seriously, your last comment highlights my simple take on the Treaty..

[Maha]

Holdens or Toyota's??

But seriously, your last comment highlights my simple take on the Treaty..


Oh sure, Mum and Dad sold a house in the early 80's...its worth a shit load more now...maybe they should go back and collect the difference...:yes:

[Colapop]

I am a racist. I have an opinion on this issue that relates to Maori, therefore I must be a racist. How on earth can I, as a non Maori, ever presume to know what the Maori have gone through?

That said, I shall offer up my standard view on these sorts of matters...

I am a New Zealander. I was born here. My forefathers emigrated here from foreign lands. I am not an indeginous person ergo I have no special rights. I cannot vote on a special electoral role. I cannot play for a special ethnically based NZ team.

If I were a Maori I could play for that team and vote on that role and be eligible for special privileges because of my racial heritage. Even though my forefathers emigrated here - from Hawaiki... have the great canoes been forgotten?

To have this view I must be racist so I won't say those sorts of inflammatory things...


One country - One people - ALL cultures respected.

[BAD DAD]

It's speed fours, man. They bring it out of you. Something about riding a bike that looks like a battering ram from the front.

Dave

When you open a can of worms ( like this thread ) you can't be too suprised if a few of them manage to crawl out eh?

[Ixion]

To England I said. The Queen has no title to it. She is a kraut. Decendant from William of Orange.

Prior to WW1 the family name was Von Battenburg. They changed it to Windsor to make themselves more in tune with the English during the first war.


Mr :shit:

Which William of Orange? She can't be a descendant of that WoO who became de facto King William III of England Scotland France and Ireland. Because he and Queen Mary II had no children

Rightfully speaking, Elizabeth Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg (her rightful name) is not queen (or Duke) of anything. She is a usurper, as have been all her family. The right and lawful King of England Scotland France and Ireland, Duke of Normandy, is Francis II , whom God preserve. I just like to get these things right.And of course, I am a Jacobite.

The name Windsor was adopted by King George V, whose family name was Wettin, not Battenburg. They (the Battenburgs, or Mountbattens, same thing) came later.

[Ixion]

Sorry to disappoint, but that abstract entity known as the Crown has underlying radical title to all NZ land.



True. But that is not quite the same thing as saying that the Crown "owns" all NZ land. Title to land never actually confers "ownership",merely a right to occupy, usually in fee-simple. And some other rights. That is why the law makes such a distinction between "real" estate (land) and "personal" estate (pretty much everything else - simplifiedly speaking). You know this, I realise, but others will not .

[Mr Merde]

Which William of Orange? She can't be a descendant of that WoO who became de facto King William III of England Scotland France and Ireland. Because he and Queen Mary II had no children

Rightfully speaking, Elizabeth Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg (her rightful name) is not queen (or Duke) of anything. She is a usurper, as have been all her family. The right and lawful King of England Scotland France and Ireland, Duke of Normandy, is Francis II , whom God preserve. I just like to get these things right.

The name Windsor was adopted by King George V, whose family name was Wettin, not Battenburg. They (the Battenburgs, or Mountbattens, same thing) came later.

Ixon,

once again a mine of information.

From this I deduce you are not a fan of the German usurper.

The Duke of Wesminster and Lord Beaulie have more caim to the throne than those germans.

WW1 was just a family arguement beween the germans that got a little out of hand.

Mr :shit:

[James Deuce]

Lord Beaulieu

But good try :)

Met him actually. Nice bloke for a Norman, and his Automotive Museum is an absolute gem!

[Mr Merde]

Lord Beaulieu

But good try :)

Met him actually. Nice bloke for a Norman, and his Automotive Museum is an absolute gem!


Wasnt quite sure of the spelling.

Been to the museum and got lost in the archives researching a bike my brother had here in NZ.

Brilliant place.

[scumdog]

- erm - i'm a Celt from Salisbury Plain ...... d'ya think there's any chance of me getting back the land the romans stole from us when they invaded? :dodge:

Me too...and I want to know when I'm going to be recompensed for cows,houses and virgins taken back then....

But I'd have a better chance as a Maori in NZ eh??


The Romans won't give me Jack-shit, will they??????

[The_Dover]

The Romans won't give me Jack-shit, will they??????

maybe syphillis

[Colapop]

I'm a Viking - gimme back Northland!

[Mr Merde]

Me too...and I want to know when I'm going to be recompensed for cows,houses and virgins taken back then....

But I'd have a better chance as a Maori in NZ eh??


The Romans won't give me Jack-shit, will they??????

Sorry mate they closed their claims office about 1500 years ago.

No retrospective claims allowed.

Better go with you 2nd choice.


Mr :shit:

[cowpoos]

I'm a Viking - gimme back Northland!
have dannevirke and shut-up!!

[gijoe1313]

Me being asian, will keep inscrutable about this aiyaah! All your cat and dog are belong to us - flied flish and chrips with creamofsumyunguy anyone?

All I know is there are plenty of chinee pleople with maori blood and vice versa when they have hanky-panky with locals!

My blother, ex-gurlfrend, all chinee, she have small maori blood in her - claim special schoraship to Law at Auckrand University! Damn smart that gurl!

Tangata iwi Ngati Mori ora backdoor pass aiyaah! Who say integlating not work? :lol:

[Colapop]

Unlike the Maori's, my people didn't just occupy the land.... we came, we saw, had your women, came again, took the few valuables you might have had, including any good looking chicks, came again, then left...

[Mr Merde]

maybe syphillis

As popular fiction has it this came from the natives of the "New World" then the Spanish.

What I cant understand is why it became to be called the "french disease"


Mr :shit:

[Delerium]

sounds like it was put into the too hard basket and just gave em what they wanted. Not the ideal way to resolve it.

[The_Dover]

sounds like it was put into the too hard basket and just gave em what they wanted. Not the ideal way to resolve it.

yeah, should've shot the fuckers

[Colapop]

Out of a cannon? Back to where they came from?

[Mr Merde]

Way off topic.

Can anyone tell me why there is just one monopolies commission?

or just one government?

Or one dept to sort out these treaty claims?


Mr

[Mr Merde]

Who repped me and mentioned coffe and rum.

I am blind for another 30 days.


Mr :shit:

[Shadows]

So... who's keen to occupy The Beehive then?

[James Deuce]

It's not a very attractive building and the rooms are all a weird shape.

I think us Pakeha will probably get to keep that one.

[MisterD]

Ahh, that ol' intellectually weak argument.

Is that really the best you can do? Never mind that the crown made a legally binding treaty and flagrantly disregarded it...Hell, teh crown even made legislation and disregarded it

That'd be the difference between Maori and Celts, Australian Aboriginals etc

If you really think any culture would stay in stasis in some sort of neo-stone age, you're kidding yourself.

In your deal, how about pakeha give back all the produce they grew on maori land, all the resources they extracted etc, etc...that'd be a raw deal for both sides.

And for all those wishing to run down the labour govt and their Maori loving, PC social engineering - how about remembering that the National government have put through far more in the way of treaty settlements than labour EVER has - have a look at Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993 (passed when there was a red-headed pakeha minister of Maori affairs - Doug Kidd), for a piece of PC Maori-loving law. Ngai Tahu settlement anyone? National as well...

Go and read some history y'all - <a href="http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/category/tid/133">here's a good place to start.</a>

Learn cheery facts like Ngai Tahu getting less than a penny an acre for their south island land, nice, fair, honest dealings by the crown and pakeha there!

Also learn that the treaty is the legal basis for pakeha government, and the basis for our pakeha ancestor's being here. It's our treaty too. I'm pretty pleased that my ancestors were tangata tiriti, as am I and all the rest of us non-maori NZers.


The point of that argument is to highlight the fact that this country would not be the place it is without everything that European migrants brought with them, as well as everything the Maori had when they arrived.

Personally I think the whole thing should be publicly on the balance sheet.Compensation for land lost, sure. Licencing fees for technology provided in the other column.

[Swoop]

Oh sure, Mum and Dad sold a house in the early 80's...its worth a shit load more now...maybe they should go back and collect the difference...:yes:
I wonder about this proposed law for "artists" that allows a percentage of all future sales of their "art" to go their way.
Surely, they painted a picture and sold that item for a set price. The second owner is taking the risk that the value will increase in that piece?

Mad.

[Phurrball]

GB said stuff here

Moriori are generally accepted as a Maori iwi or hapu. them being a seperate people is a nice myth to ease pakeha guilt and legitimise serious wrongs - 'But They did it too!!'

There was no mistake WRT signing the treaty or the acts afterwards. Mostly deliberate and calculated attempts to wrest land off Maori by bhook or by crook. Not mistakes - but immoral and often illegal by the Crown's own laws. Every tom, dick and harry getting in on the act were deemed to be crown agents in many cases.

There has been some progress on claims, but not nearly enough. The insulting and patronising institutions and attitudes that previously existed in officialdom towards Maori land have been rolled back at last with the expanded jurisdiction of the Maori land court and Te Ture Whenua Maori act.

[Phurrball]

True. But that is not quite the same thing as saying that the Crown "owns" all NZ land. Title to land never actually confers "ownership",merely a right to occupy, usually in fee-simple. And some other rights. That is why the law makes such a distinction between "real" estate (land) and "personal" estate (pretty much everything else - simplifiedly speaking). You know this, I realise, but others will not .

Aye, thank you for the clarification. Does 'Ixion' mean font of all wisdom in some obscure language of which I am unaware.


maybe syphillis

Europeans were helped in their colonisation worldwide by all the germs thay brought with them. You accidentally make a cogent point Dover! Go and sit in the corner and flagilate yourself for making a useful contribution!


The point of that argument is to highlight the fact that this country would not be the place it is without everything that European migrants brought with them, as well as everything the Maori had when they arrived.

Personally I think the whole thing should be publicly on the balance sheet.Compensation for land lost, sure. Licencing fees for technology provided in the other column.

Good point, but I think you'd have a VERY uphill battle trying to find a basis for Licensing fees on pakeha technology. IP law would not be much help, as it wasn't well developed then, and a lot of technological transfer took place prior to English laws being adopted here. Maori on the other hand have a massive and rich audit trail or rights and wrongs and a legal instrument with which to back up their claims.

Nice to come back today and see that this thread has stayed out of PD!

[doc]

When will you white fella's ever get the point. We won the war we got a treaty. If we didn't, because we could never come to an agreement with the other tribe, we ate them, partly because we had raped and pillaged our natural resources. Our conservation, was when we cleaned out the shellfish we moved to the next area and fought the fuckers for it who ever won got more protein in more ways than just shellfish . Thank f..k the long pigs arrived, they were extra tasty and so easy to get.
Quote from the "Musket Wars" .."The tribe feasted on the remains of human flesh until the smells of putrification moved them on"

[Grahameeboy]

Moriori are generally accepted as a Maori iwi or hapu. them being a seperate people is a nice myth to ease pakeha guilt and legitimise serious wrongs - 'But They did it too!!'

Okay. So they were not here first and then eaten or whatever.

There was no mistake WRT signing the treaty or the acts afterwards. Mostly deliberate and calculated attempts to wrest land off Maori by bhook or by crook. Not mistakes - but immoral and often illegal by the Crown's own laws. Every tom, dick and harry getting in on the act were deemed to be crown agents in many cases.

Fair enough, however, this is not new in history. Not saying it is right.

There has been some progress on claims, but not nearly enough. The insulting and patronising institutions and attitudes that previously existed in officialdom towards Maori land have been rolled back at last with the expanded jurisdiction of the Maori land court and Te Ture Whenua Maori act.

Maori are not the only guys who suffer insults and patronising.
Just a shame that we can not just all enjoy this land when none of us were around in the 1840's and the Country is suffering for what happened 150 years ago and from I glean from talking to Moari, most are not bothered.

.................................................

[Phurrball]

Maori are not the only guys who suffer insults and patronising.

Unfortunately, Maori were systematically divested of their land by numerous unfair government institutions and laws - they were discriminated against by the crown in a particularly disturbing way.[the Chinese possibly being another example] Other indigenous peoples have suffered possibly worse in other countries, that doesn't make what happened here any less egregious. The fact that the crown made specific promises in the treaty and in legislation, and broke them, gives Maori some comeback.

Maori [not all of them mind] didn't get into their dire socioeconomic status by themselves...that took the 'white man's' help...

Good thoughts.


Just a shame that we can not just all enjoy this land when none of us were around in the 1840's and the Country is suffering for what happened 150 years ago and from I glean from talking to Moari, most are not bothered.


I reckon most of us do enjoy this wonderful land - we're all tangata whenua in our own ways, and feel a strong connection to our beautiful, skinny, hilly, shaky isles.

Deep-seated issues don't go away by themselves sadly, and Maori issues have only really been addressed meaningfully since the 1985 extension to the Waitangi Tribunal's jurisdiction. 150 odd-years is a long time to suffer broken promises and their attendant ills without redress.

Good discussion here folks. Token stinking hippie signing off...

[Grahameeboy]

Unfortunately, Maori were systematically divested of their land by numerous unfair government institutions and laws - they were discriminated against by the crown in a particularly disturbing way.[the Chinese possibly being another example] Other indigenous peoples have suffered possibly worse in other countries, that doesn't make what happened here any less egregious. The fact that the crown made specific promises in the treaty and in legislation, and broke them, gives Maori some comeback.

Maori [not all of them mind] didn't get into their dire socioeconomic status by themselves...that took the 'white man's' help...

Good thoughts.



I reckon most of us do enjoy this wonderful land - we're all tangata whenua in our own ways, and feel a strong connection to our beautiful, skinny, hilly, shaky isles.

Deep-seated issues don't go away by themselves sadly, and Maori issues have only really been addressed meaningfully since the 1985 extension to the Waitangi Tribunal's jurisdiction. 150 odd-years is a long time to suffer broken promises and their attendant ills without redress.

Good discussion here folks. Token stinking hippie signing off...

Nau te rourou, naku te rourou ka ora te manuwhiri.............

I was really talking about now re insults etc.

I agree the fact that Maori are not the only guys who have been hit does not diminish what has happened, however, this has been the way of the world for centuries and sometimes they make out it is just them......and as for suffering only those here now can comment cause a lot of good has happened too.

[ynot slow]

my view is if the maori don't want european influence that would mean that all the educated maori with doctorates will want to be called mr or mrs eh dr.o'regan etc.mind you if abel tasman had landed we would all be speaking dutch as they took no prisoners so to speak.i drove passed the school last week and it's getting rundown quick.also the local comunity was hoping to purchase the school to use it as an adventure type base with all facilities to sleep and eat and view the local area for tourism maybe,but the govt stuffed it up.interestingly though about 20yrs ago when the debate over mt.egmont naming was about,i and many others bought t shirts with the slogan cross out the name which stinks,either taranaki or egmont and naki was crossed out.this printed by a business man who lived most of his life in hawera and was an architect,more so a maori and our present deputy mayor,he'd never get away with it today in our pc world,most weares of t shirts were 60/40 nz over maori too.my grandparents had land in town edge and had an old stable on property,with land subdivision etc they sold some land to the local council.down came the stables/barn for sections,silly thing apparently was the stables were the old armed constabulary from late 1800's,progress eh.mind you 30yrs ago we did that to old buildings.had a discussion with a new breed of maori (middle aged born again)about the names etc of the provence and land settlements etc,he couldn't give me any proof of sale just the tried bullshit,i asked him if you've spent most of your life in hawera you will know where the armed constabulary was as it's part of history,i.e land grab at turn of century,you guys all know the land was taken or bought for pittance.we all recognise historicall venues pa sites,battle sites etc,but he couldn't tell me and he knew all about the deprived people of the land.i gave up but did say we gave you fellas some mounts like eden and victoria.