Bain gets a retrial

[riffer]

Perhaps the whole story will be told this time...

[Fub@r]

Just saw this on the TV. Privy Council actually said there "had" been a miscarriage of justice in this case

[Colapop]

By the shooter on the grassy knoll? Is everything a conspiracy?

[98tls]

Does it really matter wether he killed em before or after he delivered the paper.....................

[Hitcher]

Or if he killed them at all? The Privy Council clearly thinks there is doubt. Don't believe everything you read in the newspapers.

[Cajun]

Does retrail means all new evidence is allowed?

[Finn]

Does it really matter wether he killed em before or after he delivered the paper.....................

Yes. Given the state of the New Zealand employment laws, he could probably get compensation for work related stress that led him to kill his family. He'll be out in no time.

[Steam]

Hey that's great! Being a Dunedinite means I heard a lot of interesting things the media weren't allowed to or didn't publish, and it seems to me he may well be innocent.
Interesting, very interesting. I wonder what Scumdog thinks? Prolly not allowed to say.

[Hitcher]

Does retrail means all new evidence is allowed?

Yes it does.

[oldrider]

I always wondered why the house was allowed to be burned down so quickly after the event!

Makes me feel someone has something to be afraid of! Funny bloody outfit if you ask me!

This is just going to go on and on and probably never to a clear conclusion.

I feel pleased for him if he is innocent though. :mellow: John.

[Dooly]

They said on Hauraki this morn that if he's acquitted he will be re-arrested for DIC.
Dickhead in cardigan.

Forever known as the geek in the orange cardy.

I think he's innocent, always have.
The old man seems the culprit.

[Blackbird]

It's not really about whether he's guilty or innocent, it's more to do whether due process was followed. I guess a straw poll on KB would come out about 50:50 guilty/innocent like the rest of the country. (Unless the cop bashers influence it:innocent: )

[Grahameeboy]

No idea who this guy is, sorry.

[spudchucka]

While I'm not convinced that he's innocent I've always felt that there was sufficient doubt over the investigation to have warranted a re-trial.

[Lias]

I'm not a diehard bain fan, but i think that the odds of him being innocent are greater than those of him being guilty.

[eliot-ness]

What are the odds that the guy in charge of the investigation is due for retirement in the very near future?

[Skyryder]

I've never been too sure about Bain one way or the other. Seems to me the strongest doubt is that Bain had no motive whereas the father did. However no evidence of Bain's father mental condition was ever bought in front of the jury. Like I said I'm not convinced of his innocence only that sufficent doubt exists of his guilt.

Skyryder

[Squeak the Rat]

While I'm not convinced that he's innocent I've always felt that there was sufficient doubt over the investigation to have warranted a re-trial.

Fucking cops always sticking up for your own......

Oh, wait. I agree....... :killingme

It's a very interesting result. The media is suggesting that the government might not order a retrial and just release him. But I believe if compensation comes into the equation then a retrial is necessary.....

[MyGSXF]

I'm with Lias & Skyryder.. I was never convinced he did it.. what motive was there!!?? Where as the father was heading for major shit street with the daughters alligations of incest! :sick:

Personally, I feel that no one will ever REALLY & TRUELY KNOW 100% if he did it or not.. except HIM! :mellow:

[terbang]

Where as the father was heading for major shit street with the daughters alligations of incest! :sick:


Ahh yes I remember that. A wierd bunch I reckon but I tend to go along with ya there, noone will ever know 100% but at least Bain gets a second chance to defend himself. He sure has lost a heck of a lot hasn't he...

[Lias]

the daughters alligations of incest! :sick:


I'm pretty sure she was hot so who can blame him *grin*

[Dooly]

I wonder if he's still got that red cardy.

[MSTRS]

If Gil Grissom had been on the case back then, there would have been no fudged evidence, and we wouldn't be having this conversation now.

Apart from GrahameeBoy, there wouldn't be a person in the country that doesn't have a (strong) opinion on the case. David needs a new trial to clear his name once and for all. Good luck finding a jury that has no preconceived ideas, though.

[Phurrball]

(snip) Like I said I'm not convinced of his innocence only that sufficent doubt exists of his guilt.
Skyryder

That would seem to be what the decision is saying - an unsafe conviction for procedural reasons...


(snip)Good luck finding a jury that has no preconceived ideas, though.

Therein lies the rub. I have my own thoughts, and on balance I believe that he is the most likely culprit - but that is not the criminal burden of proof, and it is possible that he didn't do it. In legal terms that adds up to an acquital...

A legally fascinating result - but none of takes away the feelings I'll forever have associated with that frosty morning - the walk to school past Every St, the news being broken in German class, the subsequent special assembly. It wasn't a nice morning to live in the greater Anderson's bay area, or be a pupil at Bayfield High School...everything about the case gives me the heebie-jeebies, but it's still legally and factually interesting.

Anyone get their mitts on the PC decision yet??

[oldrider]

Beyond all reasonable doubt? Not in my opinion.

Did they (the Police) look deep enough into the wider (weird) family for someone else with a motive?

They (the wider family) sure got rid of that house pretty quickly. (evidence?)

I just can't help wondering why! :shit: John.

[Pixie]

He's gotta be guilty
He called the Policeman a liar
He's gotta be guilty
And there's no smoke without fire....

[Phurrball]

Here it is...the decision of the Judicial Committe of the Privy Council in <a href="http://www.privy-council.org.uk/output/page535.asp">David Cullen Bain v. The Queen</a>

Just to save you all hunting for it.

20 odd pages and twenty-odd thousand words.

[ManDownUnder]

No idea who this guy is, sorry.

GB it's all here (http://www.crime.co.nz/c-files.asp?ID=88) chap.

In short - a family was murdered, shot dead and there was a question over who did it - was it the father who finally and fatally turned the gun on himself, leaving only David (who claims to have been out doing a paper round at the time)... or was it David before the paper round.

The trial was a big one, a real shocker in NZ to the point of it's ongoing notariety. A few key people picked up the cause and started to look at it closely - and the more they looked they more they found to question.

Push push push saw appeals rejected left and right, so in a last ditch effort - it was taken to the Privy Council, who last night (NZT) overturned the conviction and ordered the retrial.

There is a hell of a lot of "he said/she said" going around about it and it's going to be an emotive issue.

[lb99]

I'm pretty sure she was hot so who can blame him *grin*


I went to intermediate with Laniet, she wasn't so bad :)

my parents were heavily involved with theatre and stuff, as was David, so I met him a few times, worked onstage with him too, he was a quiet fella, unusual but talanted, seemed harmless enough

My younger sister was quite freindly with the youngest, apparently

so we all sorta moved in the same circles and crossed paths occasionally

[Paul in NZ]

well good on the system and Joe Karam. It works (kinda) and lets hope if one of us ever gets into trouble a good bastard like Joe rides over the horizon..

Cheers

[SPman]

About fucking time this happened. Another sordid annal in the police prosecution saga. Another example of the police - "pin it on somebody at any cost," mentality!
Now, when is Peter Ellis going to get a fair hearing?

[Swoop]

I went to intermediate with Laniet, she wasn't so bad :)

my parents were heavily involved with theatre and stuff, as was David, so I met him a few times, worked onstage with him too, he was a quiet fella, unusual but talanted, seemed harmless enough

My younger sister was quite freindly with the youngest, apparently

so we all sorta moved in the same circles and crossed paths occasionally

I was very interested in the comments made on the rock this morning (6.35am) when they had one of the chaps who works there, making a couple of comments.
This person actually was good friends with David Bain, and said he was an ordinary kid and who was not the reclusive, quiet personality that the media portrayed him as being.
The person was saying that a day or so before it all happened, David and a few other kids were around at his house recording some music or something, and they are all on a tape laughing and having a great time, as kids do.

Something slightly different from the persona that we saw courtesy of the media, when he was being led around in handcuffs.


Bloody glad the privy council heard this case. The "NZ Supreme Court" that replaces the PC will be a farce since the gubbinment will still influence their decisions.

[Steam]

David should be tried in court for crimes against fashion, remember those hideous woolly jerseys he wore at the first trial? Guilty!

[cowpoos]

Apart from GrahameeBoy, there wouldn't be a person in the country that doesn't have a (strong) opinion on the case. David needs a new trial to clear his name once and for all. Good luck finding a jury that has no preconceived ideas, though.

here is the big problem....how will it be tried....and will it have to be tried in NZ?

[SPman]

Bloody glad the privy council heard this case. The "NZ Supreme Court" that replaces the PC will be a farce since the gubbinment will still influence their decisions.
If the police hierachy let it get there in the first place!

[MSTRS]

here is the big problem....how will it be tried....and will it have to be tried in NZ?

Pitcairn??
Trouble is, no matter what the verdict is, one of the two camps will be outraged.

[Swoop]

If the police hierachy let it get there in the first place!
About as much chance as them placing ALL the evidence in front of a jury...

[cowpoos]

About as much chance as them placing ALL the evidence in front of a jury...
yes....and because of there concern of public image....and public confedence I do doubt it will be totally honest from that angle...



But really can't see how he's going to get a fair trail in NZ!!! seriously...as MSTRS said...just about everyone in NZ will have a strong opinion of this case as its been so strongly covered in the media...from both angles...I dunno what my opinion of how it could be dealt with is?? but it will almost have to be trailed somewhere else?? england??

[TS99]

another 5 gazillion taxpayer's dollars down the toilet! :angry:

Who wins? The lawyers... :laugh: all the way to the bank

[Swoop]

yes....and because of there concern of public image....and public confedence I do doubt it will be totally honest from that angle...

But really can't see how he's going to get a fair trail in NZ!!! seriously...as MSTRS said...just about everyone in NZ will have a strong opinion of this case as its been so strongly covered in the media...from both angles...I dunno what my opinion of how it could be dealt with is?? but it will almost have to be trailed somewhere else?? england??
Where will we trail it to?

After the amount of time David Bain has spent behind bars, I doubt that there will be a retrial.
A serious compensation claim should be forthcoming however, for taking away years of his life (through dubious policework) that he will not get back.
This should really come out of the police budget though.

[Maha]

another 5 gazillion taxpayer's dollars down the toilet! :angry:

Who wins? The lawyers... :laugh: all the way to the bank

Be fucken funny if they find him guilty for the 2nd time

[cowpoos]

Where will we trail it to?

After the amount of time David Bain has spent behind bars, I doubt that there will be a retrial.
A serious compensation claim should be forthcoming however, for taking away years of his life (through dubious policework) that he will not get back.
This should really come out of the police budget though.
yeah....but we still don't know if he's inocent or guilty???

you can't just aquit someone based on the privy council saying there needs to be a retrial??? can you? they said there was a miscarriage of justice??
will adding more evidence make him innocent? the privy council did NOT say he was innocent...and I don't really think its there place in my opinion...

as you may have guess I'm not on either side of the innocent or guilty debate...I have always sat on the fence about this issuse and would love alot more full discloser of the case and hearings once its all done and dusted...

[Maha]

Where will we trail it to?

After the amount of time David Bain has spent behind bars, I doubt that there will be a retrial.
A serious compensation claim should be forthcoming however, for taking away years of his life (through dubious policework) that he will not get back.
This should really come out of the police budget though.

There will be a retrial, thats set in concrete..his lawyers have asked for bail which was to be expected. Having said that, this does not mean he is free to go just yet. Arther Allen Thomas was tried twice and found guilty twice...as it iturned out, for something he did not do. So Mr Bain cannot rest easy just yet, but one foot is certainly out the door

[Hitcher]

Prediction: The Crown will decide not to take a second trial against David Bain (he has already spent 13 years in jail), and he will be released next week with his conviction quashed.

[cowpoos]

Prediction: The Crown will decide not to take a second trial against David Bain (he has already spent 13 years in jail), and he will be released next week with his conviction quashed.
so the crown will be judge and jury?



{and if that does happen...I bet its very very conditional!!!!}

[cowpoos]

Prediction: The Crown will decide not to take a second trial against David Bain (he has already spent 13 years in jail), and he will be released next week with his conviction quashed.
BTW!! hope you sinbin the crown if the do that too!!!! or at least infract them!!

[MSTRS]

If the conviction is Quashed, the doubt over his guilt or innocence remains. I agree, a new trial may simply be too expensive to justify on the grounds that David has served over 80% of the original sentence.
I also hear the bells of compensation ringing loudly to the tune of millions.
David could then go anywhere in the world where he is unknown and enjoy a far better rest of his life.

[inlinefour]

Perhaps the whole story will be told this time...

Ain't it supposed to be innocent until proved guilty???? Maybe another instance of justice gone fucked up yet once again in Aoteroa... :angry:

[Squeak the Rat]

Prediction: The Crown will decide not to take a second trial against David Bain (he has already spent 13 years in jail), and he will be released next week with his conviction quashed.

Wow, amazing.


The media is suggesting that the government might not order a retrial and just release him. But I believe if compensation comes into the equation then a retrial is necessary.....

[cowpoos]

If the conviction is Quashed, the doubt over his guilt or innocence remains. I agree, a new trial may simply be too expensive to justify on the grounds that David has served over 80% of the original sentence.
I also hear the bells of compensation ringing loudly to the tune of millions.
David could then go anywhere in the world where he is unknown and enjoy a far better rest of his life.
getting a visa might be a bit of a bitch though!!

[MSTRS]

getting a visa might be a bit of a bitch though!!

Why? If the conviction quashed and there is no retrial, then it is as if he were never tried in the first place.

[cowpoos]

Why? If the conviction quashed and there is no retrial, then it is as if he were never tried in the first place.
I doubt it will be quashed...

[Hitcher]

It has been quashed. That's what the Privy Council determined yesterday.

[Maha]

Wow, amazing.


Not so....you can see the one they call ' Gypsy Hitcher ' at any sideshow/fair/gathering in the Wellington area most weekends, hes very good but looks but looks fucken' silly in that jersey....:gob:

Bit like the one Mr Bain wears....:yes:

[cowpoos]

It has been quashed. That's what the Privy Council determined yesterday.
wasn't the quashed refering to the crowns position on a retrail??? correct me if I'm wrong please?? but thats what I gathered...

[MSTRS]

The privy council determined the conviction was unsafe and declared it 'quashed'. A new trial would not be desirable from anyone's pov after all this time.

[Maha]

wasn't the quashed refering to the crowns position on a retrail??? correct me if I'm wrong please?? but thats what I gathered...

You are right....there is no payout due to the convictions being quashed, (cos thats what would happen right $$$?) there will be a retrial.

[MSTRS]

You are right....there is no payout due to the convictions being quashed, (cos thats what would happen right $$$?) there will be a retrial.

If a conviction is quashed, then for the 'defendant' it is as if s/he was never prosecuted in the first place (legally speaking). In David's case he has spent 13yrs illegally detained. Either - he will be retried, found guilty and spend a further 3yrs inside - or he will be found not guilty and be in a position to claim compo - or the crown will decide to not retry and he will be in line for compo.
Any which way, we're all shafted again (in the pocket) because of dubious police work/ethics.

[Maha]

If a conviction is quashed, then for the 'defendant' it is as if s/he was never prosecuted in the first place (legally speaking). In David's case he has spent 13yrs illegally detained. Either - he will be retried, found guilty and spend a further 3yrs inside - or he will be found not guilty and be in a position to claim compo - or the crown will decide to not retry and he will be in line for compo.
Any which way, we're all shafted again (in the pocket) because of dubious police work/ethics.

Knew i should have stayed on a bit longer at Law School!!....:yes:

[cowpoos]

Knew i should have stayed on a bit longer at Law School!!....:yes:
did u acctually go to school?

[Scouse]

Well sorry to dissapoint ya's all but I think he is guilty Ill have to make a Fry David Bain banner

[ManDownUnder]

Prediction: The Crown will decide not to take a second trial against David Bain (he has already spent 13 years in jail), and he will be released next week with his conviction quashed.

Naaa - they'll have to go through due process... Ministerial Enquiry... whatever which (co-incidentally) sees David released with full fan fare and generous compensation just before the next election.

Of interest - which Govt was in power when he was locked up, under which law, and has Labour changed that law in the meantime?

Coz if they haven't - they will! Under urgency too of course.

[Maha]

did u acctually go to school?


No!!..straight to Law School....didnt mess about with that progressive schooling bullshit....

[MSTRS]

Naaa - they'll have to go through due process... Ministerial Enquiry... whatever which (co-incidentally) sees David released with full fan fare and generous compensation just before the next election.

Of interest - which Govt was in power when he was locked up, under which law, and has Labour changed that law in the meantime?

Coz if they haven't - they will! Under urgency too of course.

Only thing we can be sure of is it WILL cost the taxpayer....

[cowpoos]

Coz if they haven't - they will! Under urgency too of course.

with the usual labour total lack of though of consequences!! of course!!

[ManDownUnder]

Only thing we can be sure of is it WILL cost the taxpayer....

Oh hell yes - don't forget that... although Bain has paid a fair old price himself...


with the usual labour total lack of though of consequences!! of course!!

No no no - there will be the natural consequences of Labour being able to pour tons of money into Bain's pockets (rightly so assuming he's innocent), but they get all the good press for it.

They've capped election spending - so this will be a God send for them. They can spend whatever they determine fit, get brilliant press out of it, and no-one else will really be able to bitch and moan for fear of looking like the bad guys.

Watch this space - I'll put a beer on it poos. Take me up on it after the next erection

[Grahameeboy]

If Gil Grissom had been on the case back then, there would have been no fudged evidence, and we wouldn't be having this conversation now.

Apart from GrahameeBoy, there wouldn't be a person in the country that doesn't have a (strong) opinion on the case. David needs a new trial to clear his name once and for all. Good luck finding a jury that has no preconceived ideas, though.

Actuawawaly.....I read the Herald stuff about it this am and it does appear that the guy was shafted and that the old man did it......the 'key' thingy seems to be one of the obvious pieces of evidence.

So I did take the trouble to find our MSTRS..............anyway, do I know you?

[cowpoos]

Oh hell yes - don't forget that... although Bain has paid a fair old price himself...



No no no - there will be the natural consequences of Labour being able to pour tons of money into Bain's pockets (rightly so assuming he's innocent), but they get all the good press for it.

They've capped election spending - so this will be a God send for them. They can spend whatever they determine fit, get brilliant press out of it, and no-one else will really be able to bitch and moan for fear of looking like the bad guys.

Watch this space - I'll put a beer on it poos. Take me up on it after the next erection
if labour is still in power after the next election....I'm starting my own political party!!!


and I am not buying you a beer after your next erection...get some viagra!!

[Grahameeboy]

if labour is still in power after the next election....I'm starting my own political party!!!


and I am not buying you a beer after your next erection...get some viagra!!

You can't even make it as a MOD, what chance have you got of going into Politics CP's

[ManDownUnder]

You can't even make it as a MOD, what chance have you got of going into Politics CP's

Not much - he just lost the Gay vote...


if labour is still in power after the next election....I'm starting my own political party!!!


and I am not buying you a beer after your next erection...get some viagra!!

[Skyryder]

Prediction: The Crown will decide not to take a second trial against David Bain (he has already spent 13 years in jail), and he will be released next week with his conviction quashed.

That's about what will happen.

Skyryder

[MSTRS]

Actuawawaly.....I read the Herald stuff about it this am and it does appear that the guy was shafted and that the old man did it......the 'key' thingy seems to be one of the obvious pieces of evidence.

So I did take the trouble to find our MSTRS..............anyway, do I know you?

Your earlier post made it seem like you had never heard of the case.
Good on you for finding out more about it.
Yes, we met on the 250 ride in Aucks around New year and also at the Busa Petes' party.....I was the one without the plaster casts!

[Dooly]

I wonder if he gets a payout if he'll give some to Joe Karam, who reckons he's spent over 2 million on the case and is broke.

[Swoop]

Well sorry to dissapoint ya's all but I think he is guilty Ill have to make a Fry David Bain banner
The same logic as that which came from one policeman. "I know he's guilty because you cannot shoot yourself in the chest with a rifle".
No wonder some police have a bad reputation with statements like that.:nono:

[Scouse]

The same logic as that which came from one policeman. "I know he's guilty because you cannot shoot yourself in the chest with a rifle".
No wonder some police have a bad reputation with statements like that.:nono:Look Swoop he's guiltyer than a guilty thing on guilty steroids

[Swoop]

Look Swoop he's guiltyer than a guilty thing on guilty steroids
I will agree with that statement. The fashion police were on his tail all the way from the wool shop!

[peasea]

[QUOTE=Hitcher;1050223]Or if he killed them at all? QUOTE]

Don't know if he killed 'em all but I reckon he had justification for killing his mother. Seen those jumpers she knitted him????

[Patrick]

Some of the comments here are right out there...

"The house was burned down/to get rid of evidence..." The ESR and Police had taken all they needed and were no longer guarding it as a scene. The public wanted the house gone to rid themselves of the memory of what occurred. It was burnt by the fire brigade in a controlled burnoff instead of some dipshit causing uncontrolled arson instead.

"Innocent until proven guilty." Inline??? - Ummm.... he was proven guilty...:innocent:

"ALL the facts to come out?" Hopefully... there was evidence the Police were not allowed to use as well.....:shutup:

"Conviction quashed? Retrial ordered," but interestingly enough, the Privy Council also stated that he should be held in custody still, until the decision about a retrial is reached... not the usual for an "innocent?" The council obviously feels there is something seriously amiss with this lad and his "innocence," not to release him. A technicality they may have found, perhaps, but it does not mean he did not do it...

My guess?

A retrial, costing many $$$, the lawyers laughing all the way to the bank... the conviction entered a 2nd time and the appeals process going all the way to the supreme court... this time...:bye:

"He has been hard done by" is my all time fav.... not as hard done by as the killed family, me thinks.....

[Mom]

I am pleased for David Bain that he has the opportunity to re-assert his innocence. Whether or not the crown decide to retry the case he has made his point. Personally I have no strong opinion on whether he did it or not (unlike Authur Allen-Thomas or Peter Ellis) I guess finding an unbiased jury to try him again will be almost impossible in NZ, but the way it has been left there is someone "out there" that did it, the crown think David is the prime suspect, his lawyers have asked for bail, let him out and have another crack at convicting him...........*shakes head* we live in a weird society, whichever way it is going to cost us money..........:yes:

[MSTRS]

Stop it Patrick - you're ruining a perfectly good weenie roast....
Yes, the privy council did say to hold him in the interim...interesting - case of possession is 9/10ths etc??

[Indiana_Jones]

Let him out, he'll fly to Brazil lol

-Indy

[Patrick]

Stop it Patrick - you're ruining a perfectly good weenie roast....
Yes, the privy council did say to hold him in the interim...interesting - case of possession is 9/10ths etc??

Had to chuck some balance into the unbalanced bits...

[MSTRS]

Had to chuck some balance into the unbalanced bits...

Then get your thumb off the scales of justice. We can all make up our minds that David is innocent without (further) input from the filth...:innocent: :devil2: :killingme

[Grahameeboy]

Your earlier post made it seem like you had never heard of the case.
Good on you for finding out more about it.
Yes, we met on the 250 ride in Aucks around New year and also at the Busa Petes' party.....I was the one without the plaster casts!

I hadn't heard of it when I posted...read work paper later.

So which one had the beard then?

[Stroker Girl]

[QUOTE=Hitcher;1050223]Or if he killed them at all? QUOTE]

Don't know if he killed 'em all but I reckon he had justification for killing his mother. Seen those jumpers she knitted him????

LOL, those jumpers were scary even for the mid 90's! However we can probably place the blame of those hideous jumpers at the foot of the police. I remember reading somewhere that the police actually confiscated all his clothes when they arrested him and instead gave him some clothes from the Salvation Army! Apparently the same thing happened to Peter Ellis. It must be the notion, that guilty people wear bad woolen items (Arthur Allan Thomas as an example!).

[jonbuoy]

God I hope he was guilty - I doubt he's had an easy life inside.

[Swoop]

I am feeling more concerned for those who have been harmed the most from all of this trial.
The jury members.

Given bullshit, lies and half-truths from the police and the prosecution, then left to come to a decision.

They must feel like shit once the judge lets the hammer fall and then the other parts of the evidence get known.

NZ HAS to keep the Privy Council. NZ justice system is a fucking joke.


"Innocent until proven guilty." Inline??? - Ummm.... he was proven guilty...:innocent:
Incorrect. He is now an UNCONVICTED person.

"ALL the facts to come out?" Hopefully... there was evidence the Police were not allowed to use as well.....:shutup:
OK Sherlock. If the nz police farce had evidence that PROVED he killed the family beyond ANY doubt, why did the plod NOT present this evidence at some stage of the judicial process(even during the appeals)?
Or would they have to go away and fabricate some?:whistle:

[Timber020]

I was told by someone who was on the scene in the first hours of the investigation who also interviewed Bain later that the crime scene management was simply non existant. there was no control of who went in and what they did once inside.

Bain has been very careful not to dispute his case to strongly while in prison, by being labeled a spree killer he has a certain cred with the other inmates. If he protested his innocence to all while inside he would be easy meat.

[candor]

Once I was visiting an inmate. When he asked how someone (who was depressed) was my reply was "well you just have to take a look at the house - honestly the state of it, it's like, well almost as bad as the Bain house... so messy like when were dishes last done, a house of despair is what I call it".

The inmate began gesturing indicating something behind me but I ignored it and continued. Then he whispered "its him, just there".

Oops, Bain was sitting just a few metres from us. Did I feel embarrassed....
though he made no response I could see.

[Patrick]

Incorrect. He is now an UNCONVICTED person.

He is now...he was convicted... and upheld, and upheld again... then went to Privvy Council...

OK Sherlock. If the nz police farce had evidence that PROVED he killed the family beyond ANY doubt, why did the plod NOT present this evidence at some stage of the judicial process(even during the appeals)?
Or would they have to go away and fabricate some?:whistle:

You have no idea how it all works do you???? Ever heard of Trials within a trial?

[Indiana_Jones]

All they have done is removed the conviction, doesn't mean he is innocent or guilty.

-Indy

[Patrick]

All they have done is removed the conviction, doesn't mean he is innocent or guilty.

-Indy

Quite right, but on here, he is completely innocent...

[Pixie]

The person was saying that a day or so before it all happened, David and a few other kids were around at his house recording some music or something, and they are all on a tape laughing and having a great time, as kids do.

Something slightly different from the persona that we saw courtesy of the media, when he was being led around in handcuffs.




Nowadays the media can CGI horns on his head and goat legs

[Swoop]

He is now...he was convicted... and upheld, and upheld again... then went to Privvy Council...
Who have returned the finding that we are back to square one. A fresh case needs to be submitted that DB committed multiple charges of murder and then the courts will hear the evidence and a case will proceed. Not that we are going to see a retrial though.

[Patrick]

Who have returned the finding that we are back to square one. A fresh case needs to be submitted that DB committed multiple charges of murder and then the courts will hear the evidence and a case will proceed. Not that we are going to see a retrial though.

Yep, back to square one, with a prime suspect still... which is why he hasn't been released....

Retrial could be intersting... back then, killing 5 people and getting 16 years non parole was considered better than average...

In this "new age" climate, he could be sentenced to much, much more... look at BURTON and co of late, minimum 25 plus years non parole for them, killing one or two. What will BAIN get now, if he is convicted again, for killing 5?????

[Hitcher]

I now suspect that the Government will drag this out for as long as it takes for David Bain to complete his 15 year sentence (two years). That way they can parole him with no subsequent liability for compensation and so on. Which I thinks sucks hugely if they have no intention of retrying this case, which I suspect they have no intention of doing for a whole host of reasons.

[cowpoos]

I now suspect that the Government will drag this out for as long as it takes for David Bain to complete his 15 year sentence (two years). That way they can parole him with no subsequent liability for compensation and so on. Which I thinks sucks hugely if they have no intention of retrying this case, which I suspect they have no intention of doing for a whole host of reasons.
I think I might have to agree with that too hitchie...be interesting if theres a opposition party campain against his release or not though?

[MSTRS]

... 16 years non parole ....
In this "new age" climate, he could be sentenced to much, much more...

HULL O....if he is retried AND found guilty, the sentence imposed will be based on the norms at the time of the crime.
I suspect that Hitcher is right....justice and police have dragged it out so long, that another year or two will be a doddle for them.
The whole sorry saga sucks. It is interesting to compare responses here with the publics 'trust' of the police. A gesture of good faith from the police without a shitfight in court over bail would be a good thing about now. Can't see it tho.

[Skyryder]

HULL O....if he is retried AND found guilty, the sentence imposed will be based on the norms at the time of the crime.
I suspect that Hitcher is right....justice and police have dragged it out so long, that another year or two will be a doddle for them.
The whole sorry saga sucks. It is interesting to compare responses here with the publics 'trust' of the police. A gesture of good faith from the police without a shitfight in court over bail would be a good thing about now. Can't see it tho.

It will be the Crown Law Office pulling the strings. Just depends how bad or good Cullens budget is going to be. Plenty of plaudits and Bain can kiss his freedom good bye for some time.................if the buget gets a canning he'll be out in no time. :gob:

Skyyrder

[Patrick]

HULL O....if he is retried AND found guilty, the sentence imposed will be based on the norms at the time of the crime.


Murder = Life Imprisonment...
5 x murders = 16 years...??????

HUH???????????????? I think the original sentencing judge forgot to put the 0 after 16...

[kro]

The interview I heard said he was going straight to KFC once released, he loves the stuff and said " I could murder a family pack"

[Hitcher]

Or even an urban legend pack...

[kro]

Dude, I was just plagiarising a poor taste joke I heard off Hauraki this morning.

[SPman]

Murder = Life Imprisonment...
5 x murders = 16 years...??????

HUH???????????????? I think the original sentencing judge forgot to put the 0 after 16...
But, as you should know, if sentenced to life imprisonment, the 16 yrs, in this case, is the minimum non-parole period. When released, it is on lifetime parole with the possibility of being hauled back to prison at any time....like most murder sentences.

[Forest]

I'd expect that killing five people these days would get you preventive detention.

[spudchucka]

YWhat will BAIN get now, if he is convicted again, for killing 5?????

Would he get time served or be up for another 17 - 25 minimum?

As I recall the father was shot behind the ear with a .22 rifle fitted with a silencer. How long were Robin's arms?

[spudchucka]

A gesture of good faith from the police without a shitfight in court over bail would be a good thing about now. Can't see it tho.

How many murder accused are granted bail? Why should this one be any different?

[Clockwork]

Would he get time served or be up for another 17 - 25 minimum?

As I recall the father was shot behind the ear with a .22 rifle fitted with a silencer. How long were Robin's arms?

Actually, it seems to me that if I were trying to shoot myself with a gun as long as my arm, behind the ear would be the easiest way to do it.

[MSTRS]

Murder = Life Imprisonment...
5 x murders = 16 years...??????

HUH???????????????? I think the original sentencing judge forgot to put the 0 after 16...

That much is true....but when was the last time sentences were imposed cumulatively? And theory is...life = out in 10 (with good behaviour) unless a minimum term is added.

[spudchucka]

Actually, it seems to me that if I were trying to shoot myself with a gun as long as my arm, behind the ear would be the easiest way to do it.

Put a silencer on a normal length rifle and see how easy it is to position it in that area, why wouldn't he just put it in his mouth like any other suicide victim? At least that would have made it relatively clear that it was suicide.

Also, pathology showed he (Robin) had a very full bladder, it doesn't make any sense to me that you would go around murdering your family while you were busting for a piss. Wouldn't you take the time to have a leak first? Even a cold blooded killer would suffer from high levels of anxiety while they were murdering five people and having a violent struggle with at least one of the victims, which would make it highly likely that they would loose bladder control if they were busting.

[Patrick]

But, as you should know, if sentenced to life imprisonment, the 16 yrs, in this case, is the minimum non-parole period. When released, it is on lifetime parole with the possibility of being hauled back to prison at any time....like most murder sentences.

Yeah, I know... but still out after 16 years for killing 5 people doesn't add up. Life should be that. You get out in a box.

[Patrick]

Would he get time served or be up for another 17 - 25 minimum?

As I recall the father was shot behind the ear with a .22 rifle fitted with a silencer. How long were Robin's arms?

9 foot long, apparently.

[Patrick]

Put a silencer on a normal length rifle and see how easy it is to position it in that area, why wouldn't he just put it in his mouth like any other suicide victim? At least that would have made it relatively clear that it was suicide.

Also, pathology showed he (Robin) had a very full bladder, it doesn't make any sense to me that you would go around murdering your family while you were busting for a piss. Wouldn't you take the time to have a leak first? Even a cold blooded killer would suffer from high levels of anxiety while they were murdering five people and having a violent struggle with at least one of the victims, which would make it highly likely that they would loose bladder control if they were busting.

Two good points so quickly forgotten by those who say he is innocnet...

[Skyryder]

Put a silencer on a normal length rifle and see how easy it is to position it in that area, why wouldn't he just put it in his mouth like any other suicide victim? At least that would have made it relatively clear that it was suicide.

Also, pathology showed he (Robin) had a very full bladder, it doesn't make any sense to me that you would go around murdering your family while you were busting for a piss. Wouldn't you take the time to have a leak first? Even a cold blooded killer would suffer from high levels of anxiety while they were murdering five people and having a violent struggle with at least one of the victims, which would make it highly likely that they would loose bladder control if they were busting.

If I recall I believe that it has been demonstrated how the father cold have done this. More to the point is why, when he could have just placed the barrel under the chin and acheived the same result.

I've given some thought to the bladder thing. We tend to look at this trough our own 'normal' eyes. The first thing I do in the morning is to go and have piss. But then I do not have 'murder on my mind as indeed I would suggest do any of us. But and it is a big 'but,' who knows how important it is to have a leak when you are about to top off your family.

I am not prepared to promote Bain's innocence like I am with Watson. Bain may or may not have commited the murders but and this is a smaller 'but' there e is some doubt as to whether he killed or not. Personaly I think he is guilty. I think Bain is more clever than most give him credit for. I hold Ellis in the same regard, there's doubt and that investigation was nothing but a witch-hunt. But Ellis innocent? I think he's another clever deceiver.

Skyryder

[Clockwork]

I thought cadavers had no bladder control... for that matter why didn't he go for a slash before going to say is prayers? Why didn't he notice the bloody footprint or any other signs of the struggles? Doesn't gunfire smell? Four shots in a house would leave some sort of smell surely.

[spudchucka]

If I recall I believe that it has been demonstrated how the father cold have done this. More to the point is why, when he could have just placed the barrel under the chin and acheived the same result.

Its a pretty big why.

The point I was making is that there will still be a lot of rather compelling evidence against Bain despite the new evidence produced by Karam etc.

[Patrick]

Everything else aside, the bladder thing is THE biggest thing in my book... geez, I have a nervy piss when I go out on the bike go for a run, whatever... If you were to top your entire family, you'd definitely be having a nervous pee...

[Skyryder]

Its a pretty big why.

The point I was making is that there will still be a lot of rather compelling evidence against Bain despite the new evidence produced by Karam etc.


Yes it is a big why. Along with the bladder is 'why' he did not go and have a pee. To me it's the most compelling evidence of Bain's guilt. But these two issues are not in themselves compelling enough to produce a guilty verdict on their own.
On other issues including the rifle, Karaem's counter claim's have produced doubt.

I have not read the Judgment of the Privy Council but from what I understand they ruled on the trial and 'not' from Karem's book. That's an important issue, that, to date the guilty lobby have not countered.

One aspect of this whole issue is what I call the motive supposition. We have only the word of one indavidual that Bains's sister Lanait was going to claim incest. He was a friend of hers and was never called to testify at the trial. If I recall the defence were unaware of this indaviduals testimoney which again brings ethical issues into the mix. But I diverse. How much credeance to Laneit's claim of incest can be taken from her as being accurate? Remember she was part of the Bain's dysfunctional family and could have made this story up for reasons that we will now never know. Her reliability has to my knowledge never been investigated. And yet on this hearsay evidence the old man has been painted as evil and having motive. Just not good enough in my view.

There will always be those who will proclaim innocence or guilt but I think the vast majority and I am of the opinion that those of the above camp will acknowledge that there is reasonable doubt. On that basis it would appear that justice at this point in time has prevailed.

Skyryder

[spudchucka]

There is doubt, in that I agree, in particular around the crime scene management by the police and as I've said before I've always felt that this was enough to have warranted a retrial.

Doesn't mean I think he's innocent though. If the retrial eventuates and he is acquitted then that decision will have to be accepted on its merits in the same way that the original trial decision was.

[Skyryder]

Just a breif summary from Wikipedia.

Evidence

The emergence of much new evidence after the trial led to the later appeals and the eventual overturn of Bain's convictions. Nine of the most important items were reviewed in the Privy Council findings:

1. Robin Bain's mental state

The jury did not know that he was "quite seriously disturbed", had reportedly hit a student at the school where he was principal, and had published brutal and sadistic children's stories in the school's newsletter, one of which involved the serial murder of members of a family.[5]

2. Motive

Laniet had apparently told a friend just before the killings that she was planning to confront her parents that weekend about an incestuous relationship between her and her father Robin, but the trial judge had ruled the friend's evidence inadmissable because he saw it as unreliable. The jury therefore never heard about this possible motive for Robin.[6] (The exclusion of this evidence was the principal question in the first appeal.)[7] Since then, two other people had come forward stating that Laniet had told them about the incest, and another two had given supporting statements.[8]

3. Size of bloody sock prints

Prints from a right sock impregnated with blood were detected using luminol in Margaret's room, going in and out of Laniet's room, and in the hallway outside Margaret's room. They all seemed to be from the same foot, measured at 280 mm in length. These were in places where Robin would not have gone under the Crown's theory of events. It was accepted during the trial that the prints were David's, and the prosecutor summed up saying they were too big to be Robin's. The jury were not told Robin's feet were measured to be 270 mm in length. Later measurements showed David's feet to be 300 mm in length. According to the Privy Council report, the new evidence "throws real doubt" on the assumption during the trial that the prints could not have been Robin's.[9]

4. Time the computer was switched on

The jury was told and later reminded by the judge that the computer was turned on at precisely 6:44 am, just after David had returned home. However the exact time was not precisely recorded. A computer advisor employed by Otago University determined the time that the computer was switched by identifying how long it had been going, and what the current time of day was. However he was not wearing a watch himself and relied on the watch of an accompanying constable, DC Anderson. The constable's watch had no seconds hand and only five minute interval divisions, and later upon examination appeared to be two minutes fast. During the Privy Council appeal both sides agreed that the computer could have been turned on as early as 6:39:49 am.[10]

5. Time David returned home

Someone was seen by a passing motorist entering the gate at 65 Every St at 6:45 am. The reliability of this time was left more doubtful than necessary in the minds of the jury, because they were not told that the police had checked the car's clock. Nor were they (or the defence) told of a second statement made by the motorist, in which she mentioned that she saw the yellow paper bag over his left shoulder. After retiring, the jury asked to read the motorist's statement, regarding when David arrived home; the judge then re-read her (first) statement.[11]

6. Ownership of glasses

The jury heard a statement from an optometrist that glasses found in David's room were David's, conflicting with David's testimony that they were his mother's. David was then cross-examined about this in a way that raised doubt over his credibility. The optometrist had in fact changed his mind shortly before testifying, and believed his statement had been changed to say they were the mother's, but this had not happened. The jury asked a question about this issue after retiring, and were reminded of the conflicting testimony by the judge. The Privy Council concluded that while the ownership of the glasses was not a vital matter in itself, the conflicting evidence may have detracted from David's credibility in the eyes of the jury.[12]

7. Left-hand lens

The left-hand lens of these glasses was found in Stephen's room. During the trial, Detective Weir testified that it was found there in the open. This was more consistent with the Crown's case that it become dislodged during the struggle there than what is now accepted, that it was found under a skate boot under a jacket, and was covered in dust. This may have misled the jury.[13]

8. David's bloody fingerprints on rifle

David's fingerprints were found on the rifle, impressed there by bloody fingers. During the trial it was assumed that this was human blood. (Other blood on the rifle was definitely human.) A test of the fingerprint blood afterwards did not test positive for human DNA, and the prints may have resulted from possum or rabbit shooting months beforehand.[14]

9. Laniet's gurgling noise

The jury was told that only the murderer could have heard Laniet gurgling. The second Court of Appeal heard some contradictory evidence and concluded it was not so clear-cut. The third Court of Appeal decided that it was, but was criticised by the Privy Council for having stepped outside its reviewing role here.[15]

The Privy Council ruled that the third Court of Appeal had exceeded its role as a reviewing body in deciding the implications of all this new evidence. The Council also addressed three points which the third Court of Appeal had relied on in confirming David's guilt:

1. Knowledge of spare key to rifle[16]
2. Bloody rifle clearer around David's fingerprints[17]
3. Spare magazine standing upright[18]

They found that the implications of the first point were contentious, while the other two should have been decided by a jury instead of an appellate court. They felt they did not need to consider in detail several other contentious points that the third appeal court saw as pointing towards David's guilt, including blood on David’s opera gloves, Stephen’s blood being found on David’s black shorts, the timing of the washing machine cycle, David’s head injuries, and Robin’s full bladder.[19]

[edit]

I never did think that removing the right of appeal to the Privy Council was a good idea. This judgment confirms it.

Skyryder


Skyryder

[Hitcher]

I never did think that removing the right of appeal to the Privy Council was a good idea. This judgment confirms it.

Our new Supreme Court is as yet an unknown quantity. While I understand the above sentiment, I am reserving judgement on our new-fangled Court.

[James Deuce]

Contrary to popular opinion, we didn't dump the Privy Council, they dumped us.

[Skyryder]

Contrary to popular opinion, we didn't dump the Privy Council, they dumped us.

I for one would be interested in more on this.

Skyryder

[MisterD]

Our new Supreme Court is as yet an unknown quantity. While I understand the above sentiment, I am reserving judgement on our new-fangled Court.

It's a bloody good job in this case, as I understand that some of the appeal court judges whose actions were criticised by the Privy Council are now on the Supreme Court....

[Patrick]

Just a breif summary from Wikipedia.

Evidence


Skyryder

You missed another one...

After finding his family slaughtered, why did David put the clothes he was wearing through the washing machine.... before calling the Police...???

[Swoop]

Probably the first time in months that the washing machine was able to accept a technicolour jumper, without having to wait for several hours...

[Patrick]

Probably the first time in months that the washing machine was able to accept a technicolour jumper, without having to wait for several hours...

Nah, it would have "killed" it too...

[spudchucka]

You missed another one...

After finding his family slaughtered, why did David put the clothes he was wearing through the washing machine.... before calling the Police...???

Not to mention of course that Stephen, (who had fought with the killer while bleeding profusely from a gun shot wound to his head) had fibres from David's jersey, (the one found in the washing machine) under his fingernails

Or....

That David had told police that he had put the washing on that moring and a bloody palm print of his was found on the washing machine.

Or...

That Robin Bane had nobody's blood on him but his own and that he was found in his own clothes, the same clothes that he had been wearing the night before, (confirmed by David in his own statement)

Or....

That the killer had walked in blood and Robin's footwear showed no sign of doing so.

Or...

That the killer wore David's white gloves even though Robin had a pair of his own.

Or...

That David has never been able to offer an explanation for any of the incriminating evidence.

Or...

That the media and Karam have made a celebrity out of a mass murderer.

[Patrick]

Now some of those I had forgotten about... cheers!

Innocent????

TUI...

[Indiana_Jones]

Helen Clark did it

-Indy

[Finn]

Helen Clark did it

-Indy

You're thinking of the Crying Game, not David Bain.

[Scouse]

Fry David Bain

[Scouse]

Fry David BainUnless of course his father realy did do it

[Skyryder]

I'm nowhere as convinced of Bains innocence as I am of Watson's.

I can remember when the bodies were found the radio news played Bains's phone call to the police. Would not happen today, but there was a lot of panting etc. I was in the car with the wife at the time and can distinctly remember telling her that I thought the phone call was false. It just did not sound panicky: too controlled and false. This was before Bain was charged. I'm not that familier with Karams issues on Bains innocence but Karam has or did have the rights to Bains story. I know some people who were involved with Bains trial and a lot of evidence never got to court. David insisted that the family stay in the home on the night before the deaths. He was so I am told very instant on this. He was also involved in amatuer dramtics (actor) which I did not know. But on reflection his phone call may have been an act.

To me the biggest hurdle of Bains innocence is the full bladder of the father. Most men I know the first thing they do when they wake up is to have a slash. Might be different if ya gona top ya family and shoot ya self but the full bladder is a problem. Another hurdle that I have is motive. Much has been said on this in that the father was having sex with Lanaet and thh old man topped everybody to prevent this from coming out. Problem is that Lanaet is dead so this can only be confirmed by her friend that she told. Don't recall his name. While this was hearsay I think it should have been heard. I don't hold much truth in this matter as Lanae appeared a bit of a wacko like all the family.

Bottomline I don't know. I can't find any motive why David would top his entire family but who knows do wacko's need a motive.

And the other thing I would have thought there would be some bitterness if not for the fasle verdict at least for his entire family to cease to exist. But there is none. Or don't appear to be.

Skyryder

[slofox]

I met the dude last year - didn't come across as a psycho killer...

Personally I have had doubts over many NZ murder convictions - ever since AA Thomas was set up. Crooked coppers destroyed their own credibility with that one. That credibility has yet to be rebuilt...

[Mully]

Oh well, I guess we'll find out one way or the other in a few months.

Nightline has just announced the cost is expected to be $10 million. Plus any compo if he is aquitted.

I thought the extended family (Aunties, and the like) had the house burnt down by the fire department and sold the land. I understand there are apartments or a big house there now.

I believe they inherited as next of kin, cos David was in jail. And I heard they have nothing to do with him now.

Anyway, if Bain is found Not Guilty at this trial, does he have a claim on the estate on his parents?? Potentially, could he end up asking the government for compo for that too?? Or can he sue the family to recover the cash??

Any actual lawyers here??

[Skyryder]

Oh well, I guess we'll find out one way or the other in a few months.

Nightline has just announced the cost is expected to be $10 million. Plus any compo if he is aquitted.

I thought the extended family (Aunties, and the like) had the house burnt down by the fire department and sold the land. I understand there are apartments or a big house there now.

I believe they inherited as next of kin, cos David was in jail. And I heard they have nothing to do with him now.

Anyway, if Bain is found Not Guilty at this trial, does he have a claim on the estate on his parents?? Potentially, could he end up asking the government for compo for that too?? Or can he sue the family to recover the cash??

Any actual lawyers here??

He'll make a bundle one way or the other. Karam's lost his entire fortune over this. It's cost Karem heaps.

Skyyrder

[Mully]

He'll make a bundle one way or the other. Karam's lost his entire fortune over this. It's cost Karem heaps.

Skyyrder

Yeah, I know. I just think it would be funny if he got a big settlement from the government, sorted Karam out and went his rellies for his share of the estate.

Oh how I would giggle. And chuckle.

[oldrider]

Y'know the longer this goes on the more he impresses me as he is capable of doing it.

Cool, cold and calculating, his theatrics in the beginning are starting to make sense now just like that guy Lundy! ( they were both in the theatrical fraternity)

I am beginning to feel sorry for Joe Karam, I think he has been sucked in!

Evidence? Not a scrap, just a hunch, you know the old gut feeling!

I think he is going to pull it off too. :shifty:

Bugger being tried by jury in this country though! :confused: Been there seen that! :oi-grr: John.

[ynot slow]

Y'know the longer this goes on the more he impresses me as he is capable of doing it.

Cool, cold and calculating, his theatrics in the beginning are starting to make sense now just like that guy Lundy! ( they were both in the theatrical fraternity)

I am beginning to feel sorry for Joe Karam, I think he has been sucked in!

Evidence? Not a scrap, just a hunch, you know the old gut feeling!

I think he is going to pull it off too. :shifty:

Bugger being tried by jury in this country though! :confused: Been there seen that! :oi-grr: John.

I'm certainley not convinced either way,on this basis would be hard to find an impartial jury is my thoughts or else get a young jury.The big thing is why would he do it if it was his dad,surely kill him for what he was accused of and plead his case with her testomony in court,don't wipe out his best alibi by killing her.My thoughts lean to him doing it and Karam was taken for a voice to give credibility,much like Bull Allen has been used by the Tamatis' church/revenue gathering machine.

[Murray]

He'll make a bundle one way or the other. Karam's lost his entire fortune over this. It's cost Karem heaps.

Skyyrder

Karem's made heaps out of this already through book sales etc. Being the mercenary he is (first rugby/league convert) he dosn't do anything unless theres a buck in it for him.

[Skyryder]

I wonder if he's still got that red cardy.

He'd make a bomb on Trademe. Either way.


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

Y'know the longer this goes on the more he impresses me as he is capable of doing it.

Cool, cold and calculating, his theatrics in the beginning are starting to make sense now just like that guy Lundy! ( they were both in the theatrical fraternity)

I am beginning to feel sorry for Joe Karam, I think he has been sucked in!

Evidence? Not a scrap, just a hunch, you know the old gut feeling!

I think he is going to pull it off too. :shifty:

Bugger being tried by jury in this country though! :confused: Been there seen that! :oi-grr: John.

Yea my gut instinct says the same. But if there is doubt he should be off.
At he end of the day there comes the last one...........then the bullshitting stops.


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10560357


Don't know how to post up the videos of this but open up the link and click on the video icons.

The Reece Gardiner clip is particulay interesting


Skyryder

[Indiana_Jones]

The new KFC promotion,

The David Bain: I could murder a family pack :D

-Indy

[Swoop]

This is becoming an extremely interesting trial.
Very interesting indeed...

[Winston001]

Lots and lots of detail coming out but you really have to wonder at the Crown's chances of getting a conviction after 12 years have passed.

I see the blood-stained hand print on the washing machine has been mentioned. This was revealed by luminol and Bain's supporters say that laundry-powder will also show up under luminol. It will be interesting to see the attack on scientific evidence.

[jim.cox]

Lots and lots of detail coming out but you really have to wonder at the Crown's chances of getting a conviction after 12 years have passed.

Pretty good I should say.

David's story is so full of holes and inconsistencies you could sail the Queen Mary through them.

I don't envy the jury though...

[HenryDorsetCase]

Pretty good I should say.

David's story is so full of holes and inconsistencies you could sail the Queen Mary through them.

I don't envy the jury though...

well you could if the Queen Mary was a sailboat, and not tied up in dock in Santa Monica

[HenryDorsetCase]

My prediction is he will walk, th QC's will raise (barely) credible "reasonable doubt" and he will waltz.

then to reappear in Dancing with the Stars next year.

[Scouse]

My prediction is he will walk, th QC's will raise (barely) credible "reasonable doubt" and he will waltz.

then to reappear in Dancing with the Stars next year.And get hitched to his dance partner

[Indiana_Jones]

And get hitched to his dance partner

Then his father will kill her too

-Indy

[Patrick]

Not to mention of course that Stephen, (who had fought with the killer while bleeding profusely from a gun shot wound to his head) had fibres from David's jersey, (the one found in the washing machine) under his fingernails

Or....

That David had told police that he had put the washing on that moring and a bloody palm print of his was found on the washing machine.

Or...

That Robin Bane had nobody's blood on him but his own and that he was found in his own clothes, the same clothes that he had been wearing the night before, (confirmed by David in his own statement)

Or....

That the killer had walked in blood and Robin's footwear showed no sign of doing so.

Or...

That the killer wore David's white gloves even though Robin had a pair of his own.

Or...

That David has never been able to offer an explanation for any of the incriminating evidence.

Or...

That the media and Karam have made a celebrity out of a mass murderer.

Waiting, waiting, waiting......... These points above....:rockon:

[jim.cox]

Waiting, waiting, waiting......... These points above....:rockon:

And we could add..

How did David's glasses get broken?

How did Dad get the key to the trigger lock of the rifle?

Why the 25 minute delay before calling 111?

And the fact that Ambo staff seem pretty convinced he was faking his "fit"

[Patrick]

And we could add..

How did David's glasses get broken?

How did Dad get the key to the trigger lock of the rifle?

Why the 25 minute delay before calling 111?

And the fact that Ambo staff seem pretty convinced he was faking his "fit"

:2thumbsup Waiting.... waiting.... waiting....

[Maha]

That, since the retrial began, the 6 pm news coverage (albeit minimal) has changed its priorites in that, when the Crown had it say, the retial news item was either first or second on the list. Now that its the defence turn, the latest from the courtroom is shown after the second add break, just before the Money Market segment. Maybe a little earlier at times but, certainly later than the Crowns case was.

[Skyryder]

That, since the retrial began, the 6 pm news coverage (albeit minimal) has changed its priorites in that, when the Crown had it say, the retial news item was either first or second on the list. Now that its the defence turn, the latest from the courtroom is shown after the second add break, just before the Money Market segment. Maybe a little earlier at times but, certainly later than the Crowns case was.


You may be right but I think it's the subject matter (incest) that has taken the news slot to an earlier time.


Skyryder

[riffer]

Yes, well the news is considered adult viewing in my house, and with good reason.

[Winston001]

Yes, well the news is considered adult viewing in my house, and with good reason.

Bang on. Going OT for a moment, I've always watched the news but realised one day that this presented difficulties in regard to my children, when they were smaller.

I remember my 8yr daughter asking me what the step-father of Coral-Anne Burrows had done as he was shown on the news, and why had he hurt the little girl..... It was an awful moment. Then there were paedophiles, rapists etc etc on at other times.....

I wanted my children to grow up aware of the world by watching the news but the content - at 6:00pm - isn't suitable.

[Maha]

You may be right but I think it's the subject matter (incest) that has taken the news slot to an earlier time.


Skyryder


Yes, well the news is considered adult viewing in my house, and with good reason.

Good points, didnt think of that, all our children have left home.

I guess the Matt Johns/group sex thing is less intrusive?

[FJRider]

You may be right but I think it's the subject matter (incest) that has taken the news slot to an earlier time.


Skyryder

A bit of sex does wonders for ratings ... sorta sounds like a storyline in Shortland Street.

[Hitcher]

One is taking with several grains of salt the stories of incest and other sexual misadventures alleged from the former Bain household. If Laniet has, as alleged, had three different children out of wedlock, one allegedly sired by a black Papua New Guinean while she was on VSA work and one by her father, where are these children (now adults)?

They (the Bains) are clearly all nuts. David appears to be the most sane of the lot of them. God knows what happened in that Dunedin house on the morning in question. I am now long past caring. I am convinced that David Bain poses no risk to society or to those around him. Conviction nowithstanding, let the poor bugger go. He has done his time and I am certain that us taxpayers should have more pressing needs for our hard-earned contributions.

[SixPackBack]

The old man killed the family, David came home and killed him.
That's my prediction, kinda fits with some of the evidence and gives David enough moral fortitude/limited guilt, abject horror to behave the way he does.

[Robbo]

The old man killed the family, David came home and killed him.
That's my prediction, kinda fits with some of the evidence and gives David enough moral fortitude/limited guilt, abject horror to behave the way he does.

Mmmm. Now that's an interesting angle on it and one that i had'nt consiered. You could be onto something there SPB but also as Hitcher has said, the entire family appears to have been totally disfunctional and probably would have self destructed eventually.

[Mully]

The old man killed the family, David came home and killed him.
That's my prediction, kinda fits with some of the evidence and gives David enough moral fortitude/limited guilt, abject horror to behave the way he does.

I read some evidence that supported this too. They did charge him with 5 murders, so in theory he could be found guilty of the one murder.

I think his lawyers have done a pretty good job of introducing reasonable doubt though. I suspect he'll walk.

[SixPackBack]

I read some evidence that supported this too. They did charge him with 5 murders, so in theory he could be found guilty of the one murder.

I think his lawyers have done a pretty good job of introducing reasonable doubt though. I suspect he'll walk.

'Corse he will walk.
Given public opinion, if he did kill the 'ol boy he would be hailed as a hero and doing the community a favour.

[Skyryder]

One is taking with several grains of salt the stories of incest and other sexual misadventures alleged from the former Bain household. If Laniet has, as alleged, had three different children out of wedlock, one allegedly sired by a black Papua New Guinean while she was on VSA work and one by her father, where are these children (now adults)?

They (the Bains) are clearly all nuts. David appears to be the most sane of the lot of them. God knows what happened in that Dunedin house on the morning in question. I am now long past caring. I am convinced that David Bain poses no risk to society or to those around him. Conviction nowithstanding, let the poor bugger go. He has done his time and I am certain that us taxpayers should have more pressing needs for our hard-earned contributions.


I tend to agree with the exception of David Bain being the most sane. He's the only one still alive so comparisons are difficult to make. He may be the smartest but that too is in doubt for the same reasons.

Given that so many make the excuse of sexual molestation for 'going off the rails' for want a better phase I can not help but pause to consider that this was Laneit's excuse for working as a prostitute. Of course the money and the 'laid back' life style had nothing to do with her decision??

I too am a bit suspiciouse of what she has 'alledgedly' said in respect of 'her' baby that any utterences that she has made to her friends has to be suspect.

So far I have not come to the conclusion that the defence has cast reasonable doubt on Bains guilt.


Skyryder

[awayatc]

Bain there....
done that.....
:chase:

[Skyryder]

Bain there....
done that.....
:chase:

and got away with it.



Skyryder

[Hitcher]

and got away with it.

David Bain hasn't "got away with it." In case anybody has forgotten he has spent a considerable number of years at Her Majesty's Pleasure. His conviction was quashed on appeal. I suspect that the only reason he's being retried is so that the Crown doesn't have to pay compensation for wrongful conviction.

[Mom]

David Bain hasn't "got away with it." In case anybody has forgotten he has spent a considerable number of years at Her Majesty's Pleasure. His conviction was quashed on appeal. I suspect that the only reason he's being retried is so that the Crown doesn't have to pay compensation for wrongful conviction.

I love your cynicism, I also agree :yes:

[Winston001]

I suspect that the only reason he's being retried is so that the Crown doesn't have to pay compensation for wrongful conviction.

Not really. Five people were coldly murdered. The police, the Crown, the ordinary public can't just shrug their shoulders and say "too hard". The evidence against Bain is very strong. To let him walk away would not be just or right.

As for compensation - he'd need to be exonerated, like David Doherty, to have a good chance. But.......yes he could very well get something if acquitted on the basis of being wrongly imprisoned in the first place. Neverthless "Not Guilty" is a long long way from being innocent.

There is another guy, Rex Haig who was released on appeal but has been refused compensation. Same sort of case.

[Headbanger]

I can not help but pause to consider that this was Laneit's excuse for working as a prostitute. Of course the money and the 'laid back' life style had nothing to do with her decision??
Skyryder

Dunno about that, The small number of street whores I have known over the years have had the shitest life style, mental state and money situation I have ever encountered.

[short-circuit]

Bain killed the father....Explains the difficulty with the rifle, other inconsistencies and his weird (fake) behaviour - fitting and tone during emergency call.....

After he discovers the father had killed the rest of them

Whaddaya reckon?

[Beemer]

Sounds like his sister could have done with a can of this...

[testastretta]

David Bain will be found not guilty if just one of the jury members share the views of some of the posters on the last few pages of this thread.
Reality,the evidence against David is overwhelming(Stephens blood on him,scratches on his face,his bloody palm print on the washing machine,hearing gurgling from his sister while Robin is dead on the floor yet she died instantly from a final gunshot to the head,etc etc).While the evidence against Robin is very weak(No blood on him other than his own,a full bladder,accusations of incest from a daughter who was probably the most disturbed member of the family(next to David)and by many accounts was known to tell different versions of stories that may not even be true.
Clearly the defense case is all about reasonable doubt because all scientific evidence goes against David.

[Swoop]

Clearly the defense case is all about reasonable doubt because all scientific evidence goes against David.
Interesting statement.
How many court cases have you been on?

[Skyryder]

David Bain hasn't "got away with it." In case anybody has forgotten he has spent a considerable number of years at Her Majesty's Pleasure. His conviction was quashed on appeal. I suspect that the only reason he's being retried is so that the Crown doesn't have to pay compensation for wrongful conviction.


It was a 'flippant' quip that seemed appropiate at the time. As for not getting any compensation...................I would not hold my breath on that.


Actually I think he will be found guilty.


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

David Bain will be found not guilty if just one of the jury members share the views of some of the posters on the last few pages of this thread.
Reality,the evidence against David is overwhelming(Stephens blood on him,scratches on his face,his bloody palm print on the washing machine,hearing gurgling from his sister while Robin is dead on the floor yet she died instantly from a final gunshot to the head,etc etc).While the evidence against Robin is very weak(No blood on him other than his own,a full bladder,accusations of incest from a daughter who was probably the most disturbed member of the family(next to David)and by many accounts was known to tell different versions of stories that may not even be true.
Clearly the defense case is all about reasonable doubt because all scientific evidence goes against David.


Yes and that is the very reason I think he will be found guilty. As I have said in another post of mine the defence has not produced any credible evidence of 'reasonable doubt.' It's all based on what Laneit has said about her father and the additional evidence of her having a baby has got to be supect so this makes anything she is supposed to have said unreliable.

David Bain has never given an explanation for his injuries..........oh but he's had blackouts etc. Funny how that only started after the deaths of the family. There is no history of him having blackout..............or for that matter forgetting his lines.


Skyryder

[madbikeboy]

It's interesting how this case divides people into two camps (well, of course). Most of the law enforcement people and ESR people I know are in the guilty as hell camp, reasons outlined earlier. Enough physical evidence to hang him.

Then you get the other side, Joe Karam is smart, he believes, plus the goofy jumpers and big ears...

The case was possibly badly handled, but the view I've heard expressed a few times is that it gave the police and ESR the determination to get much better at collecting evidence, protecting crime scenes etc.

I think the guy is as guilty as sin. Too much evidence... Will he get off. More than likely.