Underground History - American Education

[Ghost Lemur]

We seem to have some very intelligent and articulate members here on the forums which makes non-bike related topics a cheer joy.

I thought some of you might have a view point on Education. To lead off the topic, I've choosen a book I'm only part way through. Underground History - American Education by John Taylor Gatto (http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm). The whole book is included in the link (well as far as I can tell - only up to chapter 3).

Although Mr Gatto is solely focusing on the US educational system (having been a part of it for 30 years as a twice suspended, once secretly fired, four time award winning teacher), I think it also could provide insite into the NZ educational system (even western in general).

He talks, about amongst other things, the role inderviduals such as Rockerfeller, Carnegie, Ford, have played in turning the educational system into a tool for dumbing down future workers. He also discusses the well meaning albeit nieve Utopians who misguidingly played a role. I like the fact that he doesn't fall into a path leading to conspiracy theories...

"With conspiracy so close to the surface of the American imagination and American reality, I can only approach with trepidation the task of discouraging you in advance from thinking my book the chronicle of some vast diabolical conspiracy to seize all our children for the personal ends of a small, elite minority.

Don't get me wrong, American schooling has been replete with chicanery from its very beginnings: indeed, it isn't difficult to find various conspirators boasting in public about what they pulled off. But if you take that tack you'll miss the real horror of what I'm trying to describe, that what has happened to our schools was inherent in the original design for a planned economy and a planned society laid down so proudly at the end of the nineteenth century. I think what happened would have happened anyway-without the legions of venal, half-mad men and women who schemed so hard to make it as it is. If I'm correct, we're in a much worse position than we would be if we were merely victims of an evil genius or two."

I know at least one of you are in the "Education Industry", and others here have (or are) home schooling their children. So I hope we can get a lively conversation going on this topic.

On a personal level, this topic is even more important to me at the moment. Having dropped out of high school because I wasn't being allowed to learn (can explain further my reasons for saying that if asked), and with two young children who will be entering the education system in the next couple of years, I'm sorely looking for answers and options to ensure my sons have the best possible education. Which to me means they learn how to learn, they are nurtured and directed to explore the world around them. To be analytical, and not to just do things a certain way because that's what they were told.

One negative I have with the book so far, and I'm sure some of you more analytical (sceptical?) readers out there will dislike too, is he is less than vigilant when it comes to citing his sources.

[James Deuce]

Rockefeller, Carnegie, and Ford are what can be described as "Civic Capitalists". Bear in mind that without them a tremendous amount of research, university funding, and library funding just wouldn't have happened. Carnegie in particualr is indirectly responsible for much of the "modern" advances we take for granted.

I'd like to extend this theory a bit and suggest that the three gentlemen above only built on the work of the "great" British Industrialists and mill owners who created the modern nuclear family as way to provide generations of workers to work at t' mill. In removing family ties by creating separate towns with schools churchs and shops immediately adjacent to the breadwinner's place of work, much of family support network was removed, and the Mum, Dad, and two kids model was created. The Nuclear family was cemented by the tide of 19th century emigration, that often meant that only Mum, Dad, and 2 surviving children from 17 were left to start afresh in what ever "new country" they had chosen.

Check out Richard Florida's works for an idea of how this created an environment for the growth and development of creative and knowledge economies. Check out E.E. Schumacher for a philosophers perspective on how a seemingly meaningless Industrial or Post-Industrial existence can have meaning beyond getting up and going to work.

[Posh Tourer :P]

I would be inclined to agree with what you have pointed out in your post so far (having not read the link).

My take on the educatoin industry is thus: What we have today is a fairly efficient way of educating large numbers of people, and it is quite egalitarian. Institutionalised, non-personalised education is not good for anyone, but on average is most efficient. Kind of lowest common denominator.

So far the picture looks pretty horrible huh. A McDonalds education (for those of you who saw The Yes Men at the film festival that will have further implications....) that doesnt really suit anyone well.

So what is the alternative? A personalised, individualised education system. The obvious implication there is that it would require a large number of teachers. Where do these teachers come from? They are the parents. However, could every parent homeschool their children, and what would happen if they did? A return to the class system, of an educated, wealthy few with entrenched generational wealth and knowledge, and a relatively uneducated minority with entrenched generational ignorance.

The current education system acts to prevent that to some extent. Perhaps a better sompromise would be to teach with trained professionals, as we do currently, but halve or even "third" the class sizes. This happens in new-entrants classes commonly - why? Perhaps because the students prefer it that way. Slowly we increase the class size to a standard 30-35 over the next few years. The problem with this system is that it would require a doubling to tripling of the education budget, with 2-3x as many classrooms etc etc.

I know that is hugely summarised but there you go.

So. Do I advocate the latter recommendation? Not really... I dont think it is efficient enough. Do I advocate the second option? Not that either, for obvious reasons given above.

That leaves the current system. So it has some gaping failures. However, what it does is allow most people to grasp or memorise some of the concepts that it has taken civilisations centuries to develop. The majority of people are taught some basics about the world, which hopefully contributes to a more peaceful society (knowledge leads to understanding leads to peace - yes simplified I know, throw einstein's war weapons back at me, go on, I dare ya :P). Those that are interested and have inquiring, analytical minds, on the whole, can continue into further study after that which may allow them to exercise their minds. For these students, they are told about every significant discovery in the field of knowledge, and this avoids the chore of having to experience the entire gamut of human discovery before you can progress in novel discoveries. It speeds up the process.

The system could do with some fine tuning. There ought to be more analytical thinking taught earlier. The school system is loaded with people who are good at remembering. They get good marks. It is the analytical ones who will provide the novel discoveries. However, the system is not fundamentally flawed.

At present, post gradutate study is where the analytical thinking is taught.

To apply all that in a relevant setting, I think that the analytical thinking, while being taught more from age 5 onwards, ought to be strongly emphasised at University. First year of Uni, and even second year (BSc) was a relative waste of time and money. The current climate says produce more degrees=more educated. What has happened instead is dumbing down and mass produced degrees (of which I almost have one). Why have a need for higher education? Why not upgrade secondary and primary school a little and then let undergraduate University be a place for analytical thinking and personal development, rather than an extension of the school system. Why, for example, did my first year paper have 700 students in one lecture, and three streams? Crazy... concentrate on teaching the best at that point, and allow the university staff to lead by example and actually do some research like they were trained to do, rather than being school teachers.
I think that school is for general education, and University is for the best. I want my BSc to be worth something. Instead, I've wasted $13000 to get myself a piece of paper that will allow me to get something that is useful and intellectually stimulating (post graduate degree). I suspect I will be doing a PhD, but I would prefer to be stretched doing a MSc, and tested doing a BSc.

Perhaps I'm smarter than I give myself credit for and if I could only make it to Masters, then PhD would be almost impossible. That would certainly invalidate the above point. :spudwhat: (in deference to the smiley generation).

So that is a rough rambling summary of my position.... Please take it to bits... :D

[Quasievil]

:sleep: :sleep: :sleep: sorry wake me when youre finished

[Posh Tourer :P]

Short attention span typical of the education systems processes!!!!

[Quasievil]

Short attention span typical of the education systems processes!!!!

:shake: :shake: :shake:

[Posh Tourer :P]

Part of the smiley generation!!!!!!

[mangell6]

Are we talking about training or education, there is a difference. The current system is designed to train the students and a few teachers educate their students.

The current system is designed "To coach in or accustom to a mode of behavior or performance" and/or "To make proficient with specialized instruction and practice" two definitions of "train". The definitions for "educate" all have the words "to Develop" at the beginning of each.

[Motu]

''Dumbing down the workers'' Yeah,ok - My high school in the late 60s was situated in what was then the largest industrial centre in New Zealand,it might be easy for some of you to guess what school I went to.We were fodder for the industry around us,we lived in the area because our fathers worked there,we went to the school and most of us went to work there - us technical boys for the factory floor,the commercial girls too,but they were also set up for being mothers of working families,the kids in academic classes were destined for the offices of the industries.

As a technical boy,I was just taught the basics,enough to get us through exams,and ultimatly in the 5th form,to get a certain number through School Cert.It was a difficult task and some of the less bright were given the option of dropping maths as a subject,I did that,good choice - maths was fun then,sit around and do nothing,maybe a bit of homework,but I never did that anyway.

By some fluke in the grading system that year I managed to pass SC,I didn't find a job,so went back to school,so did some of my mates.Oh dear,we were in 6Tech,the school had never had a 6Tech before,we had about half a doz in our class.6th Form came as a shock to me - I went to the English class,they had a nice looking lady teacher....and she taught English! I obviously hadn't been taught English,they had spent years learning stuff I didn't know about,I didn't have a clue what was going on - I walked out and made it a free period.I went to Geography,and found they were learning geography,something I had spent 3 years ignoring - I was pissed off because it was a subject I was interested in,the teacher never caught my interest - in anger I walked out and made it a free period.I went to the engineering shop,and they locked the door on me - for real! Engineering was not a 6th form subject.I would stand at the door to the engineering shop and look inside,I wanted to go in and practice my job in life,but the teacher told me to piss off.Pretty soon I had nothing to do at school,they didn't know what to do with me - I spent my time with the caretaker,emptying the bins and burning the rubbish,I got a pedestrian roller and spent my summer days rolling the cricket pitch and going around the running track with it.Um....I kinda stopped going at some stage....

I'm one of those who Home School their kids - my kids are 8,11,19 on saturday and 23,even if they learn nothing they will know more than me,and believe it or not I was in an ''A'' class and did better than some of my school mates.My wife comes from the other end of the system altogether,a high acheiver,if she got less than 95% in a subject she would be depressed...a cultured rose and a wildflower left to go to seed - but our minds work on a similar level,or sumfin.

My wife does the teaching,even my 8 yr old knows more about maths than me,I'm not really the sort of person who could homeschool by themselves,nothing to teach but my own stupidity - but I support her the whole way in this endevour,it's what I want for my kids - to learn because they want to learn,to learn what they need .

[Posh Tourer :P]

This column in the herald (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/businessstorydisplay.cfm?storyID=3590143&thesection=business&thesubsection=dialogue&thesecondsubsection=&thetickercode=) this morning sums up my position fairly well.... Some highlights?

Now a bachelor's degree or at least a diploma seems to be the minimum for the sort of job the middle classes want for themselves or their children. Tertiary institutions are stuffed with teenagers who don't really want to be there.

Wolf goes further: "There is no evidence that more education would lift productivity growth."

Part of her point is that the rush to educate throughout the Western World during the past 15 to 20 years has overqualified large numbers for the jobs they do. A degree or a diploma has for considerable numbers become a measure of minimum intelligence on which employers rely in recruiting rather than a stock of useful knowledge that automatically lifts the enterprise's productivity.

That is, a degree or diploma is a sort of modern school certificate or university entrance. (And, incidentally, while they are getting these scraps of paper, the young people are not economically productive.)

undergraduates are EFTS-fodder and the able are sorted out from the plodders at honours or master's level yep thats me people.... 3 years and $13000 spent to be EFTS fodder because there are few other options to get through to the real work.... Fuck!!! :brick:

However,

At a basic level, the "tertiary" system is picking up adult dropouts and getting them on the bottom rung of the educational ladder.

BUT

The bad news is that putting adults on the ladder is an expensive way of doing what schools have failed to do

There is similar perverse news in universities teaching some courses more expensively than polytechnics teach the same courses and polytechnics likewise teaching courses more expensively than schools teach them. There is also much duplication.

That relates exactly to my points....





Oh and Motu, thanks for your story. It sounds like you are one of those people who dont fit the school system. Or didnt when you were there. What do you think of the school system now? Would you have the same experience? I know it depends on the school. I count myself lucky having gone to Mt Roskill Grammar. I know I saw many people in your situation in that school too. My solution is to make SC worth something, and then you get a less qualified popultion, but lower expectations. By the time you are three years into high school, lots of people just want to finish their education. So provide technical institutes or suitable tertiary training to let these people get the skills they want to get. Why stay another two years at school just to get Bursary? Go on apprenticeship or something...I want to be able to (have time to) go on apprenticeship in any number of trades. Its just that I want more to do the thing I'm most interested in.

I know a number of highly intelligent people who arent at Uni because they dont want more damned education. If apprenticeships were a common and valid option, they'd be laughing.

My other complaint about education in NZ is that there are a large number of people who are going through uni getting a "bullshit" degree because it will earn them money. Why are people discouraged from following their dreams and encouraged into doing something boring and money earning so that they can earn enough to have fun with the time they dont have? Do a job you love and worry about the money later.
Is this a symptom of discouraging independent, inquiring minds?
I dont know but I suspect it might be....

[Hitcher]

Another issue is the current obsession with "qualifications", especially "degrees du jour" and, to a lesser extent user-pays education.

New Zealanders appear to have worked themselves up into a lather over qualifications: qualifications = good/desirable; no qualifications = bad/undesirable. Multiple qualifications = excellent. What a crock! Most of the stuff that adds value to individuals can't be measured by a qualification: diligence, honesty, ability to work as part of a team or as an individual when required, integrity, work ethic, ability to speak coherently and present a reasoned point of view, etc.

"Degrees du jour" (by my definition) are things like "qualifications" in fashion, film and fotography, fisiotherapy, tourism, and a variety of things where previously a good old trade certificate or diploma was all that was needed. I am talking about so-called "university" degrees with no accompanying intellectual rigour or research base. All such "degrees" do is dumb down and devalue "proper" degrees.

"User-pays education" -- now here's a thorny mulberry bush! I believe that students should pay for some of the cost of their education/training as to an extent they may derive some material benefit from this. However society is the richer from educated and learned folk, whether they are brain surgeons or philosophers. A balance has to be struck in terms of what is a reasonable investment by individuals and taxpayers -- I don't believe the "balance" is currently in the right place.

An outcome of all of the above is a skills shortage. An increasing number of folk with meaningless "qualifications" yet no: builders, plumbers, mechanics, dairy herd managers, shearers, fencers, cable jointers, etc. I suspect the country will have to grind to a halt before some action is taken. Meanwhile the roman-sandal-wearing, handknitted-hemp-underwear, GM-free, organic, professional victim brigade will be encouraging their children to get degrees in basket weaving.

[Steaming hobby horse returned to gargre]

[Posh Tourer :P]

"User-pays education" -- now here's a thorny mulberry bush! I believe that students should pay for some of the cost of their education/training as to an extent they may derive some material benefit from this. However society is the richer from educated and learned folk, whether they are brain surgeons or philosophers. A balance has to be struck in terms of what is a reasonable investment by individuals and taxpayers -- I don't believe the "balance" is currently in the right place.


Read the article below - it has something to say on that topic

[Pwalo]

Oh, and don't forget the perceived need for tertiary education provides an awful lot of people with a means of earning a living.

I really enjoyed my time at Varsity back in the ........... but I'm not convinced that it made me better qualified for working. Don't accountants, lawyers effectively have to do an internship (apprenticeship??) after they have completed their degrees. I've dealt some bloody stupid people who've managed to get degrees.

Both of my sons are in the NCEA system and I really can't see any benefits that this has over the old SC/UE system (now I know I'm old as I can't believe that I just wrote that).

Sorry now I'll climb down off my hobby horse. Need another coffee.....

[Mongoose]

Oh, and don't forget the perceived need for tertiary education provides an awful lot of people with a means of earning a living.
Both of my sons are in the NCEA system and I really can't see any benefits that this has over the old SC/UE system (now I know I'm old as I can't believe that I just wrote that).

Sorry now I'll climb down off my hobby horse. Need another coffee.....

The NCEA system is one that I A) Dont fully understand and B) the little I do understand I dont like it.
It seems all part of the anti-compeitive idealology to me. Why if some one fails can they not be told, "You failed"? Conversley there is not enough praise for the well doing kids. Becuase of how the system wortks these days, at High School anyway, there seems to be no room for a truely inquisitive mind. If its not strictly on topic it does not get covered.
It is now apparent that it has caused compition with in schools "We got more "A" passes than you" To try and get "rich" people to send their kids to that school, Rich kids = rich parents - more to be fleeced for the school.

[James Deuce]

The NCEA system is one that I A) Dont fully understand and B) the little I do understand I dont like it.
It seems all part of the anti-compeitive idealology to me. Why if some one fails can they not be told, "You failed"? Conversley there is not enough praise for the well doing kids. Becuase of how the system wortks these days, at High School anyway, there seems to be no room for a truely inquisitive mind. If its not strictly on topic it does not get covered.
It is now apparent that it has caused compition with in schools "We got more "A" passes than you" To try and get "rich" people to send their kids to that school, Rich kids = rich parents - more to be fleeced for the school.
You've utterly nailed it on the head. I have a 4 year old at Kindergarten and to avoid CYF intervention I've had to provide a food diary (He has too much energy we've been told. He eats way better and now chooses to eat way better than I do thanks to his Mum's insistence on only feeding our kids fresh food) of what he eats and send him to speech therapy, because he is ebullient, outgoing, and won't do every thing he's told to - especially if it makes no sense. We've just managed to catch the teachers physically restraining him, so we're about to use some of the PC crap in our favour. Whatever you do, don't have kids who behave or perform outside the norm.

[Mongoose]

You've utterly nailed it on the head. I have a 4 year old at Kindergarten and to avoid CYF intervention I've had to provide a food diary (He has too much energy we've been told. He eats way better and now chooses to eat way better than I do thanks to his Mum's insistence on only feeding our kids fresh food) of what he eats and send him to speech therapy, because he is ebullient, outgoing, and won't do every thing he's told to - especially if it makes no sense. We've just managed to catch the teachers physically restraining him, so we're about to use some of the PC crap in our favour. Whatever you do, don't have kids who behave or perform outside the norm.

That is a tricky one alright, seems to be the modern way, if your kid behaves outside the "norms" then it is either bad diet or get them on drugs NOW.
I have always brought my kids up to question that what they dont understand and not to be afraid if a teacher is wrong to also ask for clarification. Teachers are human too and do make mistakes.

[Pwalo]

[QUOTE=Mongoose]That is a tricky one alright, seems to be the modern way, if your kid behaves outside the "norms" then it is either bad diet or get them on drugs NOW.

Have to agree with you and Jim about this one. Both of my boys were told off for being too noisy at playtime !!!!!!! (This was in a primary school with an all women staff). My younger son wasn't allowed to go up a class because the teacher said he was too disruptive. She agreed that it was in fact because he found the work(?) too easy and was always finished before anyone else. So you can only be a good student if you sit nice and quietly and don't talk to your friends. Bugger me.

Even better my elder son was told off for climbing a tree (obviously far too dangerous), and for fighting back when a bully tried to beat him up. In fact he was punished and the other kid wasn't even talked to (in fact the other child was sent to a special school for behavioural problems in the next term).

I think that was probably exacerbated by not having any younger or male teachers (although younger male teachers seem a bit 'wimpy'). Certainly not the case at the local secondary school where the don't seem to mind a bit of boistrousness but don't tolerate any bullying.

Look I think that schools are for learning how to acquire knowledge, and to socialise. How to read, write, do maths, etc, and get along with your peers.

University is for research. Job training belongs in a polytech. School is not the place for job training but to get a good basic education.

Now where's that valium. :calm:

[Motu]

So,I guess you are all wondering how a home schooled kid turns out...they have no qualifications,don't know how to interact with others,all that crap - I hear it all the time.

My 2 elder girls are out in the work force now,lets see how they are doing.My oldest daughter is 23,very intelligent (of course),but is fragile emotionaly and seems to lack motivation.For some reason she became and urgent courier and has been doing it for over 4 yrs now,driving non stop over 10 hrs a day,not even stopping for food sometimes.She has her bad days,totaly shattered,not even able to lift her arms to eat,falls asleep standing in the doorway.But it seems to be what she wants to do,a bit disapointing for us,not using her good brain for any useful purpose.But that's what she likes about it I think - she's her own boss,out there by herself,making decisions,involved in the real world....but it only takes a small part of her brain,the rest she can let wander at will,she's doing other things in her head,always has,just like her father.Another home schooled friend of hers went to university and got his BA - he has just landed a job...training to be a waiter - yeah,I know...''would you like fries with that sir?''

Daughter number 2 was not so academicaly inclined,didn't even read till she was 7,not slow,just doing it different.But got motivated,wanted to get out in the work force - she set her eyes on the retail trade,wanted to work in a clothing shop.So at 15 she went off canvasing all the malls for work - of course they don't employ 15 yr olds,told her to come back when she was 18.So we sent her on a retail training course,made for all the deadbeat nohopers of society,but she loved it,got to have transvestites and gang members as mates,was the teachers star pupil.While still on the course she was picked out of over 200 applicants for a job in an international retail chain,the 16 yr old picked over more mature women,they obviously saw something.At 19 in a couple of days she is 2IC of a store,but can't be assistant manager or even manager at her age,which annoys her,she wants to keep moving up.Her downfall will be her teenager life - out every night,clubbing,pubs,parties - I hear she has a nipple pierced,but hasn't told me - she needs to get this out of her system before she can move forward.

Ok,I had hoped for child prodigies that would marry rich movie stars - but in reality I'm happy they are alive in good health and are happy on alternate days.

My boys are rocket scientists - and if you ever see me as an arcade champion,that's them at work.

[mangell6]

Motu, how could you have created such free thinking individualistic individuals. Why did you educate your children about free thinking, having a purpose, getting what you want out of life because its what you want not what society says. Oh for more parents like you who encourage their children to THINK and beleive that it is OK to challenge the 'norm'.
You do realise that they will never be average or mediocre . . . .
Well done.
Mike

[Milky]

My take on the education system as it stood over the past 3-4 years may be a bit biased due to the impending introduction of NCEA. Bullet pointed, because I cant be bothered making it more coherent:

***start brain dump here***

1. There was little or no provision for students who wanted to look at a career in the trades. Emphasis was put on paperwork, useless wordy analysis which didnt fit with many of the people who took the workshop classes... They wanted to learn how to weld/read the grain in a piece of wood, not write about the possible inventions for the future

2. There was not much publicised apart from tertiary training as a next step from school. No matter where it was - waiting/hairdressing/mechanic - all the options were either polytech or uni style courses. Noone was publicising the modern apprentiship scheme touted by the government as being so wonderful

3. There was little or no provision for someone such as myself, who was too bright for the apprentice scheme, but wanted to get into the trades at a more practical level than someone coming out of University. I know someone who I went to school with - he got about 220-250 in bursary (correct me if I am wrong TS) - who is doing an electrical training programme through ETITO?? He isnt overly bright, but obviously better than most there, as he finds things go soooooooo slooooowwww... The scary thing is, others need it to be that slow :mellow:

4. I know this isnt easy to solve, but choices I made in the beginning of form 4 - year 10 - affected what courses I could take in form 7, and hence the university course I could get into. So at an age of 14 I had to have a reasonably clear idea of not only whether I wanted to go to university, but also the type of course that I wanted to take if I chose to go there.

5. NCEA - new problems - As someone pointed out before, we are FAR too PC in the education system, and cant tell people they have failed, because it destroys their self esteem!!! did we see hordes of mal adjusted kids coming out of schools in the 18/1900's because they were disciplined/told they had failed/werent achieving? Not as far as I can see.. Although.. some of you are a bit strange now I think about it :p
What I see as a dumbing down of the education system discourages able students from aiming high as they have nothing to measure themselves against. Lumping everyone in nice tidy boxes is great from a beuraucratic point of view, but other than that, it is an abject failure.
Admittedly the last system wasnt perfect, but this is a great deal worse overall. Why would so many schools look towards alternative examinations if they didnt have reservations about NCEA?

6. Many of my friends went to uni because 'It's just what you do' after you leave school. No plans, no direction, just a flowing with the tide. This, combined with the 'knowledge economy' mantra has lead to a great reduction in the value of a degree. I dont know exactly, but I get the feeling that many university graduates on the 'production line' degrees - BSc, BA to a lesser extent BCom - end up with a few letters after their name which are NO USE at all in the careers they embark on. As Hitcher said - too many people with irrelevant degrees.

***end brain dump - coffee wearing off***

I might post more coherent thoughts once I review this with a fresh head

[jrandom]

So,I guess you are all wondering how a home schooled kid turns out...they have no qualifications,don't know how to interact with others,all that crap - I hear it all the time.

I think I've mentioned it here before; I was home schooled. Those of you who have met me will testify to the slight insanity, but I'm not sure that I can pin it on the home schooling.

I haven't decided on what to do with my two kids, yet.

You certainly didn't screw up, Motu. Your kids sound just fine and dandy. Nipple piercings and all.

[jrandom]

end brain dump

Oh arr. We have a saying.

"Isn't it cute when BAs think they're smart?"

Unfortunately you're entirely correct about the production-line degrees. A BSc ain't worth jack these days, unless you happen to have an A+ average and be otherwise brilliant.

[Motu]

So how old are you jrandom,or atleast what years were you home schooled,see where you fitted in with what groups were around at that time.When we started with my first daughter there were only a handful of people in Auckland doing it,before it got rather trendy.We stay away from the scene now,just use whats available,we don't have to do all the support work anymore.Glad to see you haven't turned out an obnoxcious sod who haunts internet forums telling stories that never happened and having an opinion on every post.

[jrandom]

So how old are you jrandom

I'm 23. Did it by the book up to 12 years old, then home-schooled my way through high school. I sort of compressed the schoolwork a bit. Chewed through it as fast as I could and went to do a worthless production-line degree when I was 16, bin out and working for almost five years now. An honorary middle-aged fart, is me. And not a 'true' home schooler, perhaps.

You can work out the timelines from that, I'm sure. Off top of t'head, I can't remember the years myself.


rather trendy

I'm not sure if it was trendy when me mum and dad did it. I remember the initial feeling of annoyance at being denied the chance to spend five years at the local rugby-playing skinny-white-boy-bashing establishment (Mt Albert Grammar, it would have been).

Turned out OK in the end, though.


obnoxcious sod who haunts internet forums telling stories that never happened and having an opinion on every post.

I ain't never told no stories wot never happened!

[Motu]

Same age as my eldest daughter,she was high school aged when we came back to Auckland.You may have heard of Meg Wilson,my wife and her have worked together on home schooling for years.Zander is the waiter...

[vifferman]

Well - this is an interesting thread for something with such a boring-looking title! Sorry I missed it up until now.

Glad to see you haven't turned out an obnoxcious sod who haunts internet forums telling stories that never happened and having an opinion on every post.Is that a dig at me, Motu?:wacko:
Hitcher - do you have just one steaming, stamping hobbyhorse in your gargre, or a veritable herd of them?
Anyways, here goes.
I have three boys: nearly 15, 17.5, and 20.7ish. The oldest two are very bright, and had 'interesting' educations. They are basically autodidactic (that basically means "self educating"), but did spend various amounts of time at school. They are both also somewhat autistic. The oldest went to school when he was 5, but 'tuned out', because he was bored, and already way ahead of his classmates. He would grab a book and read, and ignore the teacher. Because he wasn't being stimulated or challenged but was being bullied (on account of being a bit different), we weighed the options and sent him to a private school at age 7, at great expense. We reasoned that he would receive a better education and not be subject to bullying. Instead, he underwent "moulding" to fit the school's way of doing things, and was subject to intense bullying by classmates whose parents had plenty of money but apparently no time to spend raising their kids to be humans. His teacher basically didn't like him, and said he was the worst pupil she'd had in 26 years of teaching, and that his problem was that he was messy and disorganised. He was an emotional wreck after 6 months of this place...
So, my wife homeschooled him.

Second son - we sent him to school, and he played up, annoyed other kids, learnt and applied bad habits and language. After 6 weeks, we were tired of reporting to the deputy principal every day, so he was homeschooled too. We thought he's misbehaved because he was clever and thought that because his older brother was at home, he could be too, if he worked hard enough at it. The two boys learned more in a few hours a day than they would have at school, and were much happier away from an environment which was patently unsuitable for them.

When we moved to Christchurch a couple of years after this, my wife had had enough of homeschooling now 3 boisterous boys, and put them in the local school, where they did OK. The middle son spent a lot of his time as the de facto computer technician at every school he went to, as he had a natural affinity for and understanding of technology. (He started programming at 7, and taking apart electronic devices at about 3). Things were fine until we moved to Tauranga, and middle son had 12 teachers in less than a year, and all hell broke lose. Eventually, he was diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome, and we went "Ahhhhh... so that's why he's like he is."

Long and boring story cut short: school was useless for middle son, and eventually we let him drop out last year. He is still teaching himself, and knows more about electronics and computer harware/software and telecomms than anyone else I know (and I've worked at several computer companies). Oldest son is different - despite the fact he probably also is slightly autistic, he is quite gregarious, and loves knowledge so much that he is now in his third year of a Pharmacy degree. He reads all the time (even when walking to work!), and studies all kinds of stuff - history, warfare, science, art, etc. He absolutely thrives on the university lifestyle, and is getting good marks despite not working terribly hard (bad genes from me, I'm afraid...)
Youngest son hasn't 'found himself' yet, oweing largely to being overshadowed by his siblings, and missing out on a lot of attention due to his autistic brother requiring so much.

NCEA: I attended a meeting about this when our oldest son was in the 3rd form. The principle is OK (basically it was to acknowledge that kids had passed some parts of the curriculum, so if they didn't pass maths as a subject, at least they could show they knew how to do certain parts that might be relevant for a particular job. Unfortuantely, the bureaucrats got in and stuffed it up, and turned it into a giant administrative nightmare.

My education? A waste of time. School doesn't teach you how to learn, or how to think (critically analyse). Like has been mentioned elsewhere on this thread, I drifted from school (where I under-achieved) and into university (where I underachieved). Because my father was a scientist, and I was wishy-washy and didn't know what to do with myself, he steered me into doing a science degree. I started on chemistry, and drifted into Earth Sciences because it was novel and easier to get good marks by knowing a few 'facts' and knowing how to write well (how to bullshit). The only course that made me think, and that I voluntarily did extra research for was Philosophy of Science (which helped me to lose the little faith I had in science as a career). I realised along the way my course was no good for me, and tried 3 times to leave, eventually succeeding in my 6th year. I still haven't realised my vocation, and I'm not too happy about it. This helps in making sure that my kids know they can do whatever they want in life, as long as it's something they feel passionate enough about to provide the drive required.

[jrandom]

Eventually, he was diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome, and we went "Ahhhhh... so that's why he's like he is."

I recently read The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time. Loved it.

As I've commented to you before, I suspect that your son has some top-notch abilities in certain fields that could garner him a satisfying occupation and plenty of cash.


This helps in making sure that my kids know they can do whatever they want in life, as long as it's something they feel passionate enough about to provide the drive required.

Absolutely.

F'rinstance, Sarah was talking yesterday to me about a 19-month-old boy she met at her gym creche. This kid could form enormous numbers of nouns and adjectives (endlessly, non-stop, describing whatever came into his field of vision) after having been force-fed some wonder-child series of tapes and videos by his parents.

I'm a bit dubious about all that. I just try to give my kids a pleasant, intelligent and emotionally stable environment, and let them flower as they will. If they underachieve as a result, I suspect they'll still be happy.

Meh.

Who knows?

[Motu]

Sorry guys - bit touchy eh? the obnoxious sod was a dig at myself - we are all busy bodies at heart.

Autodidactic huh,so that's what it's called - all I know is that if you leave a kid alone you can't stop them learning! My kids have just had to know everything about everything.That's the advantage of home schooling - keep on a subject for days,weeks,how ever long they need to satisfy their thirst.

[moko]

One thing which struck me after moving here was the sheer bloody-awfulness of the schools,in particular the number of adults that cant read and write.I know that`s not un-common but locally it was at epidemic proportions.Thing is the Dockyard here at the time employed some 18,000 people(yep,it`s that big),though government cut-backs have slashed that number.The majority of these were low-skilled jobs and that`s a massive requirement for a city of this size,I`d often thought along the lines that maybe the schools were deliberately crap so as to churn out people with limited aspirations,in fact the "Dockyard Exam" was a feature of local schools until a few years back,school/dockyard/retirement used to be the local norm.There were a couple of very good schools and places that appeared to be somewhere for people to pass away their school years before going into the yard.Different now and the government are busting a gut to get as many kids to take on higher education as possible.
Also we have the same problem Jackrat mentioned,I watched a news item only last week saying that a chemical company may have to pull out of Britain because there aren`t enough graduates to go round with the right qualifications and many Unis are dropping courses like Chemistry completely because of lack of demand.Meanwhile thousands of young people are doing degrees in Psychology,our building trade is full of French and Eastern Europen workers and we`re shamefully trawling medical staff from places like the Phillipines,Dentists from Poland and turning a blind eye to exploitation of illegal immigrants by criminal gangs because it boosts profits for British farmers and cowboy employers.

[Hitcher]

This kid could form enormous numbers of nouns and adjectives (endlessly, non-stop, describing whatever came into his field of vision) after having been force-fed some wonder-child series of tapes and videos by his parents.
Never ever confuse precociousness with intelligence.

[MikeL]

Discovered this thread late - perhaps just as well, considering I've spent a lifetime in education and am an opinionated old bastard to boot. Won't bore you with all the observations I could make. Just a few things at random:

Dumbing down: is real. My professional opinion is that in the last 25 years the devaluation equates to about 2 years' schooling. That is, a Year 13 (Form 7) student today works at about the level of a fifth-former back then. Stage 3 university papers are roughly equivalent to first-year courses 25 years ago.

NCEA: an abomination. Even though the principle might be laudable, some of us warned years ago that it wouldn't work. It hasn't. It doesn't. It has advanced the careers and lined the pockets of large numbers of ambitious bureaucrats on fixed-term contracts who didn't and don't give a damn about the long-term consequences.

Teachers: a threatened species. At least the good ones. The training colleges were hijacked by the PC warm-fuzzy touch-feely brigade years ago. Then it became a competitive, bums-on-seats free-for-all in which depth and breadth of subject knowledge was far less important than ability and willingness to shell out several thousand dollars in fees. All the competent secondary teachers are now nearing retirement. They spend all their time trying to patch up the deficiences caused by their primary colleagues (who have had a very cosy pay parity deal with secondary teachers despite the fact that manifestly they are not doing an equivalent job). When the last of the old ones retire (and an awful lot of them have already taken early retirement directly because of NCEA), who will be teaching our children? Trendy, shallow twenty-something-year-olds with a B.Ed degree they might just as well have cut off the back of a Weetbix box, and whose enthusiasm and empathy will rapidly disappear after a couple of years at the chalkface, whereupon they will bugger off to greener and more lucrative pastures.

Whom to blame? David Lange. Much and all as I admire the man for his wit and humanity, he allowed himself to be persuaded to bring in Tomorrow's Schools (whether he was deluded or just didn't do his homework I can't say) which behind the beguiling promise of freedom of choice and an end to the dead hand of central bureaucracy turned education into a business, us into "clients" and our children into guinea-pigs.

Moral of the story: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. It wasn't broken then (a bit of fine-tuning would have sufficed), but it is now.

End of rant.

[Mongoose]

Well said Mike. I was one of the experiments in the maths of the day, "New Maths". What a load of bollocks that was, give me normal maths and no problem but that other crap that they past off as maths Pffffft

[Holy Roller]

And not a 'true' home schooler, perhaps.

Most homeschooled kids are sent to school for their highschool years as the parents don't think that they can educate their children at the higher level. Starting homeschooling at highschool level perhaps makes you more of a true homeschooler.
My wife and I have homeschooled our 5 children right through so far. The oldest is 17 and youngest is 10. Personally I think that the higschool years are easier as the students are mainly self taught and require little intervention from us. My youngest son is by no means academic and would rather spend the day on his skate board or shooting hoops. In the class room he would have been labled as so many are these days, but lately there has been some very encouraging advances in his study. Some kids just take a bit longer than others unfortunatley the system does not allow for this kind of deviation in learning.
NCEA: don't get me going, even our kids can see the stupidity of the system. Learning in bite size chunks from many different sources to gain the required credits nolonger gives the continuity of learning that promotes longterm education. Anyway education has no reference in the MOE propaganda it is being taught without the reference of having to had learnt anything. Could this be part of the socialist agenda to dumb down our future leaders. A worrying trend amoung our so called top schools is the underacheiving at the Cambridge International Exams, so schools are opting not to enrole students in these exams. Homeschoolers who enrole tend to do well at these exams.
All kids are not going to be rocket scientists but with homeschooling the education gained through matching the subjects to the skill base and interests of the kids is more than just being taught. This not to cause disrespect to teachers in the system as many of them do an exceptional job given the conditions they have to face.
Homeschooling is not for everyone, but those who opt for this lifestyle find it very rewarding. :niceone:

[Posh Tourer :P]

Could this be part of the socialist agenda to dumb down our future leaders.

Que? ?? ??

[Holy Roller]

Que? ?? ??
Past socialist political movements had a tendancy to suppress the dreamers and thinkers who may have been a challenge to the future leadership.

[Posh Tourer :P]

Fairy nuff then..... I dont think that equates to dumbing down though - rather a tenuous link.

[Ricamortise]

Things were fine until we moved to Tauranga, and middle son had 12 teachers in less than a year, and all hell broke lose. Eventually, he was diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome, and we went "Ahhhhh... so that's why he's like he is."


Did this occur at?

My 'Flatmates' son has had , er is having problems directly related to
his schooling, he has not been able to attend college since a devastating
incident that occurred around Easter of this year. We think this is largely
related to course content and politically correct teachings.

In his specific case there are several other factors relevant which I won't discuss here, apart from the reluctance of the medical profession to
apply a label to his particular malaise.

[Mongoose]

MikeL

Interesting arcticle in the Saturdays Otago Daily Times by an Ass. Prof Howard Lee, saying a very simular thing to you. He says students are being used as guineapigs in "a bold and riskey experiment"
"With the fragmented way NCEA broke subjects into little bits, it was no wonder that pupils were doing intenational qualifications such as the Cambridge International Examinations.
And so it goes on.
Cheers

[moko]

I`ve seen mates struggle helping their kids do maths homework here.The problem isn`t the maths it`s the fact that the kids have to use some weirdarse methods that apparently are new and very trendy.More than once these kids have had help from their parents,like them they find the "old" ways easier,only to get bollocked because it`s "done the wrong way".surely in an equation or whatever the correct result is the required thing however it`s done.These parents aren`t cutting corners merely showing the kids how they were taught before some clown decided that it was no longer good enough.Reading is the same,smart new idea proved disasterous so after putting kids all over the coutry way behind the standards they should be attaining finally "the old way" was seen to have nothing wrong with it.History is a joke,current curriculum picks out topics with a PC message and ignores the rest so you get kids getting good qualifications on the basis of their knowledge of the evils of the slave trade,gay rights e.t.c. while they cant give you for example a quick run-through of the history of Britain since Roman times which tells how we got to where we are today.Worse yet the EU in their infinate wisdom(big joke) are pushing really hard for memeber countries to start calling WW2 "the European Civil War",would be funny if re-writing history didn`t have such ominous overtones.
Our A-levels were once a good qualification but are now so degraded by constant political tampering so the government can claim ever-increasing educational standards that no-one gives them any credibiblty anymore.The worse bit about that is that thousands of young people bust a gut to achieve something and basically they`ve wasted their time,a kick in the teeth isn`t the ideal introduction to the big,bad world is it?
Bullying?It works like this.The government cracked down hard on bullying so hard that ironically schools find it easier to ignore it than report it and have Govt.Inspectors giving them a hard time.Sadly most people dont realise that they have clout if only they knew where to go and my local secondary lets little thugs run riot while parents of the affected pupils take their kids elsewhere.As long as they keep walking away that wont change but to be fair if your kid`s getting battered every day then you`re not going to wait around for the school to finally do something after constantly delaying the official process are you?

[SPman]

Worse yet the EU in their infinate wisdom(big joke) are pushing really hard for member countries to start calling WW2 "the European Civil War",would be funny if re-writing history didn`t have such ominous overtones Would this just happen to be , "the European Civil War", that involved nearly all countries, in all areas of the world, including Europe! (except Spain and Switzerland - maybe its them!)
Twats! :bash:

Anyone read "Degree's for Everyone", by Bob Jones. A satirical novel but with an underlying closeness to what appears to be happening in the New Age, learning institutions, going forward!.
quote - “A university degree once held mana; today it is but a badge of attendance. Scholarship has been pushed aside to accommodate the meanest intelligence with nonsense degrees in nonsense subjects and universities are today driven by commercial considerations"

Probably the best degree to get, is a BA in Philosophy and History.- on the face of it totally meaningless and useless, but,(unless these subjects have been minimalised as well), it should produce a graduate who can think, reason and analyse, and apply these traits to all areas of life and work - because, lets face it, even once you"ve got your degree, diploma, etc, you've still got to go out into the workforce and learn how to do your job.

[Lou Girardin]

So true, Mike L. Ask any under 30's to spell, do mental arithmetic or damn near anything we took to be normal schooling all those years ago.
A recent study also showed NZ students to be lagging compared to other OECD countries in academic subjects; though they do well in arty farty things, such as expressing themselves. Which is fine, as long as the recipient can read text.
Still, I think it's great. It makes our generation look like geniuses.

[jrandom]

Ask any under 30's to spell...

AHEM!

<_<

A little more respect for us young 'uns would be in order, you crusty old bugger. :kick:

[Ghost Lemur]

AHEM!

<_<

A little more respect for us young 'uns would be in order, you crusty old bugger. :kick:


'ere 'ere

*Thanks his lucky stars he's still an under 30 for a couple of years* :D

[MikeL]

AHEM!

<_<

A little more respect for us young 'uns would be in order, you crusty old bugger. :kick:

Quite right. Rather than a sweeping generalization, Lou should have quoted a plausible pseudo-statistic:

"According to some recent research 98.7% of under 30 year olds can't spell 'facetious'..."

But to be honest, JR, you are exceptional. I presume you went to a private school...?

[vifferman]

Sorry guys - bit touchy eh? the obnoxious sod was a dig at myself - we are all busy bodies at heart.:laugh: No, Motu - not at all. It was merely a case of "If the cap fits, wear it."
I seem to pop up all over the place, commenting on all sorts of things, sometimes from a point of ignorance. I just like to be involved, but sometimes wonder if I come across as a smartass, jackass, or any other sort of ass.

[Hitcher]

AHEM!

A little more respect for us young 'uns would be in order, you crusty old bugger.
About average, plus or minus two standard deviations...

[vifferman]

But to be honest, JR, you are exceptional. I presume you went to a private school...?Ah... I was actually surprised when I met JR, as I'd thought (from the mature way he wrote) that he was much older than 23...:Oops:

[Pwalo]

Would this just happen to be , "the European Civil War", that involved nearly all countries, in all areas of the world, including Europe! (except Spain and Switzerland - maybe its them!)
Twats! :bash:


Probably the best degree to get, is a BA in Philosophy and History.- on the face of it totally meaningless and useless, but,(unless these subjects have been minimalised as well), it should produce a graduate who can think, reason and analyse, and apply these traits to all areas of life and work - because, lets face it, even once you"ve got your degree, diploma, etc, you've still got to go out into the workforce and learn how to do your job.

Interesting! Must admit that I studied for a BA in History (with Philosophy and Education papers), and I agree that it's an under rated qualification (and yes I went to a private school for some of my education). It's not geared towards any career but it does show you how to critically analyse information, understand how stats and information can be used and abused, and hopefully leave you with a reasonable amount of cynicism.

It always amazes me how many people just accept whatever is presented to them in the papers or on the TV. PC is the result of lazy thinking.

Just remember though that sometimes there isn't a conspiracy, things just happen.

Hope that you are all maintaining a suitable level of sanity.


Paul

[jrandom]

Ah... I was actually surprised when I met JR, as I'd thought (from the mature way he wrote) that he was much older than 23...:Oops:

I don't look the part, eh? Aha.

That'd be why you stood at the bar looking at me, the only geared and helmeted-up person in the room, all funny-like out the corner of your eye for five minutes before sidling up and slipping me the Secret KB Handshake as I picked up a newspaper.

:drinknsin

I think I might have to grow a beard.

[Posh Tourer :P]

I reckon I've surprised a few KBers....

And I have a small goatee too...

[jrandom]

But to be honest, JR, you are exceptional.

Aw shucks.

I'll just ignore the potential ambiguity in that remark :shifty:


I presume you went to a private school...?

Tut tut, Mike, you didn't read the thread, eh? I'm a proper lower-middle-class Kiwi. Mt Albert Primary for the first six years, giving lip to, and getting beaten up in turn by, most of the rest of the school on a regular basis. Balmoral Intermediate for next two years, where I played a lot of AD&D. Then I home-schooled my way through high school instead of fulfilling my destiny and attending Mt Albert Grammar.

No silver spoons there, I'm afraid.

[jrandom]

I reckon I've surprised a few KBers....

And I have a small goatee too...

We can be the Stealth Toffs. We could have our own comic book series! 'Jaffa Splendour', perhaps?

Our superpower can be hiding in the corner of a bar looking scruffy, emerging only when tipsy, garrulous evildoers need to be defeated by convoluted argument and the cold, harsh light of well-educated opinion.

[Hitcher]

And I have a small goatee too...
There was a young lad from Dundee
Who molested an ape up a tree
The result was most horrid
All bum and no forehead
Three balls and a purple goatee

[Posh Tourer :P]

We can be the Stealth Toffs. We could have our own comic book series! 'Jaffa Splendour', perhaps?

Our superpower can be hiding in the corner of a bar looking scruffy, emerging only when tipsy, garrulous evildoers need to be defeated by convoluted argument and the cold, harsh light of well-educated opinion.

Great idea! Need to work on the comic book name though, it sounds like a new variety of cammellia!

[Posh Tourer :P]

There was a young lad from Dundee
Who molested an ape up a tree
The result was most horrid
All bum and no forehead
Three balls and a purple goatee

Ummm......

Thanks.....


I think...... :eek5:

[MikeL]

Tut tut, Mike, you didn't read the thread, eh?

Well, actually, I did read the thread, but that was quite some time ago, and it's a bit much to expect old buggers like me to remember something that they might have done a couple of weeks ago. Now, if this Alzheimers wasn't such a useful excuse in other areas, I might be tempted to do something about it...

But at least I was right in assuming that you are not a standardized, homogenized, correctly-labelled but underfilled product of our educational factories.

[Hitcher]

We can be the Stealth Toffs. We could have our own comic book series! 'Jaffa Splendour', perhaps?

Our superpower can be hiding in the corner of a bar looking scruffy, emerging only when tipsy, garrulous evildoers need to be defeated by convoluted argument and the cold, harsh light of well-educated opinion.
Hmmm, Cheiroptera-man and his loyal companion Erithacus sp.?

And their battle cry: Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!

[jrandom]

Hmmm, Cheiroptera-man and his loyal companion Erithacus sp.?

And their battle cry: Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!

I had to Google those, you sod. Well done.

I do so like that battle cry, too. Rather appropriate to the Scottish Thread, don't you think?

[jrandom]

Need to work on the comic book name though, it sounds like a new variety of cammellia!

I was thinking of Harvey Pekar.

[jrandom]

But at least I was right in assuming that you are not a standardized, homogenized...

I'm not low-fat, either.

[Hitcher]

I do so like that battle cry, too. Rather appropriate to the Scottish Thread, don't you think?
Oh yes indeed...

[vifferman]

I don't look the part, eh? Aha.

That'd be why you stood at the bar looking at me, the only geared and helmeted-up person in the room, all funny-like out the corner of your eye for five minutes before sidling up and slipping me the Secret KB Handshake as I picked up a newspaper.It was an awkward moment, indeed, exacerbated by my anxiety that my wife's car might be towed away if I tarried to exchange pleasantries (or indeed peasantries, pastries, tapestries or otherwise indulge in time-wasting activities).
I'm seldom good at meeting new people, or remembering their names. Just call me an oaf.
"Hey you! Oaf!":beer:

[vifferman]

I had to Google those, you sod. Well done.Thank {the interweb demigods} for Google!

I do so like that battle cry, too. Rather appropriate to the Scottish Thread, don't you think?I rather liked:
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

Not quite as appropriate for the Scottish thread, but good for an oaf.

[MikeL]

Thank {the interweb demigods} for Google!
I rather liked:
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.


Harumphhh...
What's the point of having had a good classical education if any peasant can now use Latin quotations to give the wholly misleading impression that he is erudite, urbane and witty?

Thank you, Mr Google!

[vifferman]

Harumphhh...
What's the point of having had a good classical education if any peasant can now use Latin quotations to give the wholly misleading impression that he is erudite, urbane and witty?Yes.
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[jrandom]

Yes.
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I never thought of doing that.

You *must* be bored.

[Hitcher]

I rather liked:
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

Not quite as appropriate for the Scottish thread, but good for an oaf.
Particularly an oaf with a fascination for catapults. The trebuchet is a personal favourite (as advertised on television too at one stage)

[Hitcher]

Yes.
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Very classy!