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View Full Version : R1 underseat exhaust, whats the advantage?



gav
9th September 2004, 13:51
Why does the Yamaha R1 have an under seat exhaust? What are the supposed advantages?




















So why dont the M1's use it?

svs
9th September 2004, 13:54
Looks. I reckon most bikes with the undertail exhaust look pretty smart.

Don't get scratched when you drop it.

Neither of which is relevant to the M1

StoneChucker
9th September 2004, 13:59
I guess for added clearance for cornering (when leaned all the way over)? Not that I'd ever need that haha, but I suppose experienced riders, on a RACETRACK, could use it to their advantage?

And looks yeah :msn-wink: The stock pipes, imho, look better than any aftermarket pipes (For the R1). Only thing aftermarket ones give you is a nicer sound, which for me, would only be for a safety issue (louder - cars more aware)

White trash
9th September 2004, 14:01
I think the only bike that looks good with an undertail exhaust is a 916.

I told Suzuki this and to keep the Trash Man happy, they agreed.

Firefight
9th September 2004, 14:05
Well I don,t like them, and if the 05 R6 has one, I won,t buy it,

F/F :(

White trash
9th September 2004, 14:30
Well I don,t like them, and if the 05 R6 has one, I won,t buy it,

F/F :(

That Suzuki's looking better every day, F/F!

Blakamin
9th September 2004, 14:35
I think the only bike that looks good with an undertail exhaust is a 916.

I told Suzuki this and to keep the Trash Man happy, they agreed.

Shoulda told them you would test their new fairing materials while you were at it ;)

vifferman
9th September 2004, 14:36
There are no advantages apart from giving a bit of protection in a crash or fall, but there are some disadvantages. It's awkward to route the pipes etc. to fit them under the seat, probably more expensive, and definitely hotter (esp. for the pillion). Plus on many bikes you lose some underseat space.

Paul in NZ
9th September 2004, 14:42
Main advantage is that you get to sell more full priced bikes to people that have to have the latest and greatest... After all, at 100 paces who could tell the difference from last years 'must have' driveway jewellery. Goodness me... Wodney fwom hup the road mhight think we didn't hupgrade this yeah dahlink!

Most of em are sad 916 copies (the 916 is a seminal design classic).

Cheers

Eddieb
9th September 2004, 14:49
It's the current fashion so manufacturers think it will help sell more bikes.

Why else?

Firefight
9th September 2004, 14:57
That Suzuki's looking better every day, F/F!



yep its looking that way Jimmy,. got 23k on this one as of this am the only other option would be another 04 R6 the price on them will drop a bit when the 05 is released, however your pencil seemed sharpe last time we spoke, looks like it will only be a two horse race. anything will be good as longs its not that calf shit yellow paint job.(sorry Banana man)

F/F :wacko:

vifferman
9th September 2004, 15:08
Most of em are sad 916 copies (the 916 is a seminal design classic).Indeed.
However (but!), Ducati did copy the single-sided swingarm and the underseat zorsts from Honda's NR, which was also instituted in the VFR.
But (however!) the VFR's SSS was ugly compared to the Ducati's, or Triumph's. And the NR's underseat zorsts weren't as pretty as Ducati's either, nor were the Vtec VFR's.
Thing is though (which I didn't realise until I was watching "Top Gear"), the Japanese aren't good at integrated design, as they concentrate on the details. So when evaluating summat, they look each detail separately, admiring each one on its own, before moving to the next detail and admiring that. So you often end up with a bunch of details which are OK on their own (apart from Honda's SSS and underseat zorsts), but look odd together. Mix enough of these, and voila! (or "viola!" if you prefer) - you get some ugly bastidge like the FireStorm. :crazy:

MOTOXXX
9th September 2004, 15:20
wouldnt it be more aerodynamic to have the pipes under the seat instead of out to the side.
i dont know, maybe im just crazy.

Zed
9th September 2004, 15:26
Why does the Yamaha R1 have an under seat exhaust? What are the supposed advantages?
I suppose they get rid of some wind resistance. The chances of someone burning themselves on the pipe is reduced, eg pillion legs (did I say pillion?) and pedestrian browsers with children!

Personally I like the new look, and it's not only on new Yamaha's, but the new CBR's look good too - especially if an aftermarket pipe is fitted to replace the gawky looking stock ones. Always admired the 916 look...

Pwalo
9th September 2004, 15:28
I think it's because it's fashionable and cleans up the back of the bike. I've always wondered if it cooks the rear shock as well as your pillion's botty.

Guess it's not a problem on a race bike, but I really can't see the advantage on a road bike. I much prefer the can beside the swing arm where it belongs. I'd love an '04 Gixxer 750.

vifferman
9th September 2004, 15:45
I've always wondered if it cooks the rear shock as well as your pillion's botty.Well, the early ones didn't have sufficient heat shielding, so a heated seat was a certainty.:wacko:

Paul in NZ
9th September 2004, 15:45
Indeed.
However (but!), Ducati did copy the single-sided swingarm and the underseat zorsts from Honda's NR, which was also instituted in the VFR.
But (however!) the VFR's SSS was ugly compared to the Ducati's, or Triumph's. And the NR's underseat zorsts weren't as pretty as Ducati's either, nor were the Vtec VFR's.
Thing is though (which I didn't realise until I was watching "Top Gear"), the Japanese aren't good at integrated design, as they concentrate on the details. So when evaluating summat, they look each detail separately, admiring each one on its own, before moving to the next detail and admiring that. So you often end up with a bunch of details which are OK on their own (apart from Honda's SSS and underseat zorsts), but look odd together. Mix enough of these, and voila! (or "viola!" if you prefer) - you get some ugly bastidge like the FireStorm. :crazy:

Yup! It's quite true.

Japanese buildings / city scapes / comics all look pretty odd to occidental eyes. At work we do a lot of digital signage stuff (we develop etc) and you want to try watching 9 simultaneous videos. Japanese make pefect sense of it because the look at one at a time. Europeans tend to look at the whole thing then look at the detail.

The fact that Ducati didn't do tech things first has nil bearing on the quality of the 916 design. From a technical point of view it is a flawed unit.

However, as an integrated and appealing design is un surpassed. It is instantly recogniseable and long lasting. It's as iconic as (say) a VW beetle, a coke bottle or a 60's Triumph twin. Just looking at it evokes everything the bike is about and it is something the 999 simply does NOT do.

Integration of design was the hallmark of the great designers, not always the engineers.

Well thats what I reckon...

Paul N

F5 Dave
9th September 2004, 16:32
wouldnt it be more aerodynamic to have the pipes under the seat instead of out to the side.
i dont know, maybe im just crazy.

Not such a silly suggestion, although for another reason than you probably suspect. Mind you I do believe mostly it is done for style. But having an appendage sticking out in the breeze is a disadvantage.

BUT, what is more of a disadvantage is if the air flowing around the bike is disrupted. If you were to run a bike in a wind tunnel you would see aerodynamic designs where the wind clings to the back of the bike as long as possible.

These same designs can be stuffed up if you then start the bike & rev it like crazy sending a plume of gas, (stand behind a big bore bike to see the effect of how much gas is moved, presumably 1000cc every revolution give or take) worse case pointing upward & beside the bike. This will push the airflow away from the bike causing turbulence.

Putting an endcap on the side mounted muffler to direct the plume to the middle of the rear of the bike should vastly minimise the effect, but in the tailpiece pointing straight back will work nicely too.

gav
9th September 2004, 16:48
http://www.motonline.com/img_repository/OKYam4_96200425711PM_709_or.jpg
http://www.motonline.com/img_repository/OK_Yam7_96200425708PM_302_o.jpg
Hmmm, other option looks to be run no muffler at all !!! :shit:

James Deuce
9th September 2004, 16:50
As a fashion statement it's a disaster for people who might want to strap some bags on and go places, rather than ride for an hour to the top of a hill and swap BS, then go home to a lovel glass of Chardonnay.

The new FZ6, supposedly an "everybike" would melt synthetic saddlebags.

Stupid if you ask me, but then no did. No one ever does.

The SSS on my RC30 was a work of art, far nicer than that blob of alloy on the 916.

vifferman
9th September 2004, 16:54
The fact that Ducati didn't do tech things first has nil bearing on the quality of the 916 design. From a technical point of view it is a flawed unit. True. The single-sided swingarm was developed by Elf-Honda for endurance racing, but has no real use on a street bike apart from looks, as it increases unsprung mass, and flexes more. However, it looks so kewl! Especially when you have a pretty rear wheel and don't hide it with the zorst.


However, as an integrated and appealing design is un surpassed. It is instantly recogniseable and long lasting. It's as iconic as (say) a VW beetle, a coke bottle or a 60's Triumph twin. Just looking at it evokes everything the bike is about and it is something the 999 simply does NOT do.Quite true. Although Honda had a great-looking bike in the NR (as you'd expect for something costing close to $NZ200k), it still isn't as good looking as the 916/996/998. A lot of the features on the NR found their place on road-going bikes: the SSS on the VFRs, the underseat zorsts from 2002 onwards on the VFR and CBR, the indicators in the mirrors on the Blackbird, etc etc., the Ducati has to be one of the prettiest bikes ever made.
Kinda shagged Ducati in that it was a very hard act to follow. The 999 is technically better, but as you say, it's a design that's not as integrated and appealing. One thing you haven't mentioned - the aural appeal of those Termignoni cans and bevel gear whine!

F5 Dave
9th September 2004, 16:57
Poos beat me to it. Single sided swingarm was a fashion statement too. The teams campaigned to get rid of it of the RVF750s & it took years to do it as Honda pride as they had bought the idea from some French concern (Elf) & wanted to get their $ worth. The twin SW was lighter, stronger & flexed more predictably. You will note they never tried it on their real racebike the NSR500.

Another RC30 & Ducati similarity is they both broke crankcases like crazy when raced. :msn-wink:

James Deuce
9th September 2004, 17:01
Poos beat me to it. Single sided swingarm was a fashion statement too. The teams campaigned to get rid of it of the RVF750s & it took years to do it as Honda pride as they had bought the idea from some French concern (Elf) & wanted to get their $ worth. The twin SW was lighter, stronger & flexed more predictably. You will note they never tried it on their real racebike the NSR500.

Another RC30 & Ducati similarity is they both broke crankcases like crazy when raced. :msn-wink:
OOooooo The nancy boy with the purple bike wants a fight does he? eh? eh?

I'll have you fella! Fekking rancid bucket racing Hutt trash!! Arrrrr.

F5 Dave
9th September 2004, 17:05
RIGHT THEN!

Purple bike? Are you calling me a poofta? Oh that's right I do have one of those, I keep forgetting (note it's not in my list of bikes).

I'll just slink away then. . . :baby:

k14
9th September 2004, 17:13
IMO underseat exhausts make alot more sense to have than a normal one.

First point is that if you have a slow 30 or 40kph off you don't damage your $700 yoshi pipe at all, its well protected. This is something that would benefit everyone, including racers. The end can would just about never get damaged.

Secondly the aerodynamics of the bike are alot more ballanced as the bike is more symmetrical.

Thirdly, looks. All bikes with an undertail look so sexy, ala 996, CBR600RR etc. They all look better than the ones with standard exhausts. My opinion though, some other people might think differently.

Think the biggest factor is the first one, just about everyone will be helped by that fact.

White trash
9th September 2004, 17:20
RIGHT THEN!

Purple bike? Are you calling me a poofta? Oh that's right I do have one of those, I keep forgetting (note it's not in my list of bikes).

I'll just slink away then. . . :baby:

It's allright mate. Us Lower Hutt "trash" types got to stick together.

Glad I'm not riding a Ducrapi *replica*.......

James Deuce
9th September 2004, 17:30
IMO underseat exhausts make alot more sense to have than a normal one.

First point is that if you have a slow 30 or 40kph off you don't damage your $700 yoshi pipe at all, its well protected. This is something that would benefit everyone, including racers. The end can would just about never get damaged.

Secondly the aerodynamics of the bike are alot more ballanced as the bike is more symmetrical.

Thirdly, looks. All bikes with an undertail look so sexy, ala 996, CBR600RR etc. They all look better than the ones with standard exhausts. My opinion though, some other people might think differently.

Think the biggest factor is the first one, just about everyone will be helped by that fact.

The new CBR600RR looks like a baboon's rectum from behind.

Aerodymanics (it's deliberate!) is all moot on the road anyway, as even on cars it doesn't really pay a part until 120km/hr or so. It can help with fuel efficiency by reducing the amount of power required to maintain 100km/hr, but I loathe those nasty little hybrid cars with a passion, largely because they look like (and are usually painted a relevant colour) a wedge of goat cheese. Bikes are hideously inefficient aerodynamically anyway, largely because the FIM legislated against exploiting aerodynamic development to keep costs and speeds down. The dustbin fairings in the 50s were a bit dodgey in crosswinds, so they got banned. Amazing top speeds from 500cc twins and singles though. In the late 80's, early 90s the 250GP bikes in particular started to lengthen and raise the rear seat unit fairing to reduce the size of the wall of air they were towing, but this got stomped on pretty quickly by the FIM.

Therefore sportbikes continue to follow an aerodynamically inefficient pattern so that all us sport bike fashion victims can buy something what looks like race bike, dunnit? eh?eh? Cruisers are similarly inefficient, sometimes made much worse by the dietary habits of the "Bubba" riding the cruiser, and the upright cruciform riding position.

James Deuce
9th September 2004, 17:33
It's allright mate. Us Lower Hutt "trash" types got to stick together.

Glad I'm not riding a Ducrapi *replica*.......Glad I'm not riding a heap of rotting 80s crap.

k14
9th September 2004, 17:45
The new CBR600RR looks like a baboon's rectum from behind.

Aerodymanics (it's deliberate!) is all moot on the road anyway, as even on cars it doesn't really pay a part until 120km/hr or so.

The 600 and 1000 sportsbikes these days are primarily made so that they will be competitive on the race track (supersport and superbikes). At speeds of over 200 i reckon the aerodynamics would be a factor.

Motu
9th September 2004, 17:55
An underseat exhaust is like and ear ring in the right ear lobe - a secret sign that you are a homosexual,motorcycle manufactorers have finaly recognised this and built a motorcycle for the homosexual segment of the market.I kinda like being able to spot a queer a mile away...

Zed
9th September 2004, 18:41
An underseat exhaust is like and ear ring in the right ear lobe - a secret sign that you are a homosexual,motorcycle manufactorers have finaly recognised this and built a motorcycle for the homosexual segment of the market.I kinda like being able to spot a queer a mile away...
Lol Motu, you may be right there!! All of a sudden I've gone off them. :wacko:

merv
9th September 2004, 19:31
The CBRs I think look OK until people put aftermarket jobs on them that are so basic just sticking out the back they look stupid in my view.

What will they try next? Have a smoke stack sticking up like a truck or something as they do always have to find the next fashion statement as has already been mentioned.

Stonechucker won't like me saying this, but again its only a personal opinion, no matter how well it goes I don't like the style of the new R1, looks way too plain for my liking. But then I'm a rider from way back.

Blakamin
9th September 2004, 19:45
What will they try next? Have a smoke stack sticking up like a truck or something as they do always have to find the next fashion statement as has already been mentioned.

Like those stupid dutch streetfighters???

marty
9th September 2004, 20:00
IMO underseat exhausts make alot more sense to have than a normal one.

First point is that if you have a slow 30 or 40kph off you don't damage your $700 yoshi pipe at all, its well protected. This is something that would benefit everyone, including racers. The end can would just about never get damaged.

Secondly the aerodynamics of the bike are alot more ballanced as the bike is more symmetrical.

Thirdly, looks. All bikes with an undertail look so sexy, ala 996, CBR600RR etc. They all look better than the ones with standard exhausts. My opinion though, some other people might think differently.

Think the biggest factor is the first one, just about everyone will be helped by that fact.

but everyone should be able to see those shiny /carbonyoshis - what's the point of having them?

the TL is balanced - 1 FO big pipe on each side

IMHO the ONLY undertail with REAL sex appeal is the MV F4.....

Mongoose
9th September 2004, 20:28
Straight pipes finishing just behind the running board on the Cali works to stop any damage to the pipes in a slow speed bin. Also keeps the pipes well clear of the back rim for ease of removal.
Airodynamics be buggered, its a big hunk pushing wads of air infront of it.
The SP1000 had one of those great big fishing boat dodgers on it and by Jiminy Cricketts they work, could have a fag(smoke variety before you devients take the wrong tack) while riding along no worries.The worste experience of that dodger was having the beard blow upwards and cover my eyes while riding, scarey for a mo(pun intended) but a scarf soon got that under control

F5 Dave
10th September 2004, 09:12
An underseat exhaust is like and ear ring in the right ear lobe - a secret sign that you are a homosexual,motorcycle manufactorers have finaly recognised this and built a motorcycle for the homosexual segment of the market.I kinda like being able to spot a queer a mile away...

Why? :shit: But that's your business how you guys meet, & consenting adults, privacy of your own home & all that. . . :pinch:

vifferman
10th September 2004, 09:18
The new CBR600RR looks like a baboon's rectum from behind.
Can't say I've examined either, so I'll just have to take your word for it.:blank:

James Deuce
10th September 2004, 09:35
Can't say I've examined either, so I'll just have to take your word for it.:blank:
Been to the zoo. The Baboons like to press it up against the glass on the viewing windows. :no:

merv
10th September 2004, 09:54
Been to the zoo. The Baboons like to press it up against the glass on the viewing windows. :no:

Must be friends of, or have been trained by, Dun Mihaka.

Paul in NZ
10th September 2004, 10:34
Must be friends of, or have been trained by, Dun Mihaka.

Nah! I think there is some sort of special link with jim2 or summat :buggerd:

They don't do that when I go to the zoo... In fact they stay well away from the glass.

:killingme

Paul in NZ
10th September 2004, 10:35
Glad I'm not riding a heap of rotting 80s crap.

:Oi:


I resemble that remark!

pete376403
10th September 2004, 10:51
What will they try next? Have a smoke stack sticking up like a truck or something .

been done - check out some of the old '70s choppers, with the pipes going up alongside the sissy bar (which was invariably topped with a chrome maltese cross)

Bob
11th September 2004, 00:41
Why does the Yamaha R1 have an under seat exhaust? What are the supposed advantages?

So why dont the M1's use it?

I think it is mainly cosmetic - of course, in an accident on the road, if the exhausts are tucked in, then there is less chance of them being damaged.

On a race bike, all they're worried about is getting the exhausts in the most efficient place. They don't have to worry about noise levels - and also, they'll all be lockwired onto the frame somewhere, so if they do go down (and the bike is able to continue), the exhausts will hopefully hold together until the end of the race.

If a GP bike goes down at 320kmph, there probably won't be enough left to carry on of course...

Someone else here mentioned the Japanese tending to look at one thing at a time, rather than the overall look? The Japanese (this is not an insult) are not great innovators - rather, they can see a thing, then adapt/improve it. So they will look at something, see that it is good, then work out how to make it better/smaller/lighter.

Italians on the other hand? Style is King and they are used to creating, rather than modifying. So what if it has dodgy electrics, the sidestand is an expensive joke (to the rider when it lifts up just as he puts the weight of the bike where it was a moment ago) and it rusts if it as much as sees a weather forecast on the TV? It looks beautiful, so the rest doesn't really matter.

Best of both worlds would be that the Italians made something, then the Japanese made it work properly!

DEATH_INC.
11th September 2004, 07:46
An underseat exhaust is like and ear ring in the right ear lobe - a secret sign that you are a homosexual,motorcycle manufactorers have finaly recognised this and built a motorcycle for the homosexual segment of the market.I kinda like being able to spot a queer a mile away...
:killingme Just as I suspected :killingme
If it's such an aerodynamic advantage,why did the Busa an ZX12 not bother?Once the airflow runs off the fairing and riders legs there's no smooth flow left,just turbulence......

SPman
11th September 2004, 18:15
I quite like the underseat pipes on the 88-89 TZR250 - but then, thats a real bike!

SPman
11th September 2004, 18:26
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3498.................. ...

James Deuce
11th September 2004, 19:42
Classic! :killingme

Firefight
12th September 2004, 07:33
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3498.................. ...


Nice one, pretty much sums it up for me !!!!

F/F :wacko:

aff-man
12th September 2004, 11:07
Yip i think the i-talians have it right. Duc's and Mv's have great looking underseat exhausts (cepf the 999 and 749)that flow with the bike. It also helps that the single sided swingarm accents the exhaust system and vice versa. The thing with the ja[ bikes is that you have these agressive lines on the bike and then this big hunk of metal stuck up under the seat. But each to his own i suppose. I love the underseat system but if i was to customize a bike it would be modeled on a 748 or 916 type not the cbr/r1 equivalent.