Letter about traffic light sensors, to the Wellington City Council

[Steam]

I'm going to send this letter to the council tomorrow. On paper, to make it more official-like.

FROM:
From Jamie McEwan
125 ***** Road
Wellington

TO:
Soon Teck Kong
Traffic Operations
Wellington City Council
PO Box 2199
Wellington

28/05/2007

Dear Sir,
I am a motorcyclist and I commute every morning from Crofton Downs to work in the city centre. I start at 6am, so there is little traffic at this time of the morning. My motorcycle (indeed 99% of motorcycles on the road today) is built primarily of aluminium and alloy, both of which have low inductance and do not tend to trigger traffic light sensor grids.
When I pull up at red traffic lights they often do not change for me, even though I stop right over the under-road sensor grid.
I must wait for a car to come up behind me to trigger the sensor, and then I have to ride forward a few meters over the lines indicating where you are supposed to stop, so the car behind me can drive over the sensor grid and trigger the traffic lights. This means I have to stop some way into the actual intersection, a fairly dangerous thing to do.
Another alternative is to run the red light, which I usually end up doing. There are frequently no cars at 5.30am to trigger the sensors for me so I would be waiting there for perhaps ten minutes. I am fully aware running a red is illegal.
The final alternative is to put the side-stand or centre-stand of the motorcycle down while still moving. The stands are made of steel, and therefore trigger the sensor when they move over the grid. However this is dangerous to my feet, creates showers of sparks, and also scores deep lines in the white painted arrows, which I assume are fairly expensive to repaint.
Taking another route to work will not change the problem, as there are traffic lights along all possible routes to the centre of the city.

I talked to a technician who works in Palmerston North and he said he always sets the sensor grid so it will detect his own motorcycle. He said unequivocally that all traffic light sensors are sensitive enough to pick up even light motorcycles and scooters, and if a traffic light is not doing so it is ill-adjusted. He also added that if a sensor cannot detect a motorcycle when set at high sensitivity, it is faulty.

Are the traffic light technicians in Wellington instructed to set the sensitivity of the grid so they will pick up motorcycles? If not, why not?
I stopped and talked personally to one of the technicians working on lights at an intersection on Tinakori Road, and he said it was a job that took less than a minute, and that he would be happy to increase the sensitivity for me. I have not had problems at that intersection since, it detects my bike immediately.

Could you please clarify the council's position on this issue?
I would also appreciate an indication of how the council intends to fix this problem.

This is not an isolated problem experienced by just one biker at just a few intersections, it is a constant issue affecting hundreds of commuters every day and throughout the city. According to LTNZ statistics motorcycle and scooter registrations are soaring in Wellington, which makes this a problem that will only get worse in future.

I have posted a copy of this letter on a website that I and many Wellington motorcyclists visit often, so please be aware that your response will be read by several hundred people.

Yours sincerely and with great hope!

Jamie McEwan

[Kflasher]

sweet keep us posted on you reply

[James Deuce]

Yo!

Don't get arsey, just ring.

Tell them the specific intersection, and street and they'll fix the sensitivity. It really is that simple and you don't need to go all letter-hippy on them.

The stands don't trigger the sensors, as it is entirely electro magnetic. Putting the stand down helps by extending the EM field of the bike closer to the sensor.

They already know about the sensitivity setting and it really is just a matter of asking politely for the sensor to be adjusted at the intersection of so and so roads.

[magicfairy]

I once asked a traffic cop what I was supposed to do in this situation. He told me I was to either
a) push my bike backwards until I found another street to go down
b) wait for a car - I said "even if I had to wait 12 hours for a car to come along"
he said yes , if you go thru the red light it is an offence.

So unless you can push your bike backwards for possibly hundreds of meters, you are legally supposed to sit there.
I'd love to be at the head of a queue, holding up lots and lots of cars (and thus unable to push my bike backwards...) for hours. And tell the cops "I am obeying the law"

[Devil]

I once asked a traffic cop what I was supposed to do in this situation. He told me I was to either
a) push my bike backwards until I found another street to go down
b) wait for a car - I said "even if I had to wait 12 hours for a car to come along"
he said yes , if you go thru the red light it is an offence.

So unless you can push your bike backwards for possibly hundreds of meters, you are legally supposed to sit there.
I'd love to be at the head of a queue, holding up lots and lots of cars (and thus unable to push my bike backwards...) for hours. And tell the cops "I am obeying the law"

He just wanted to you to go backwards so he could slap you with dangerous driving for reversing down a carriageway... :yes:

[sunhuntin]

there was somethin on campbell live, following a local tosser and his wife [? i guess] their shared scooter. i recall them being told they could legally run reds. the wife said she often gets off, pushing the pedestrian button and walks across with it. the interviewer said there was nothing stopping the council/their contractors from fixing the lights... nothin but pure laziness.

there is one intersection, which is totally crap. one side, i can sit for hours. [i often run it as i also start when there is no traffic to help] the opposite side, it "feels" me several meters back from the actual grid, and changes before ive even dropped down to first.

if i rung up, id be making them work on every single set of lights, cos they are all not working for bikes of any size [50cc upwards]

[James Deuce]

if i rung up, id be making them work on every single set of lights, cos they are all not working for bikes of any size [50cc upwards]

So do it.

As far as Wellington goes nudemetalz has said on KB before the WCC will respond to polite requests to adjust the sensor sensitivity and he works in the traffic dept.

[Hitcher]

there was somethin on campbell live, following a local tosser and his wife [? i guess] their shared scooter.

That was Wanganui. People get shot there when the local gangs can't pronounce their names.

[Pwalo]

Cripes, I just realised that I don't have to go through a single set of lights on my commute. Well one on my way home, but there's always a few cars lined up under the m'way heading up the Gorge.

Yep, just put a polite request in to the Council. They usually seem quite reasonable to talk to.

[LardEmbargo]

Traffic lights not detecting your bike's EM field, you say?

How about a Giant Bike-Mounted Tesla Coil Of Doom!!? More EM fields than you can shake a shaking implement of your choice at.

That'll learn em.

[Nasty]

The thing is in Wellington there are at least half a dozen sets that do not trigger with a bike .. and I can't remember them cos I just get pissed each time I get stuck!

[YLWDUC]

Traffic lights not detecting your bike's EM field, you say?
How about a Giant Bike-Mounted Tesla Coil Of Doom!!? More EM fields than you can shake a shaking implement of your choice at.
That'll learn em.

Just make sure you build a TEMPEST proof box to keep your swimmers happy

[LardEmbargo]

Just make sure you build a TEMPEST proof box to keep your swimmers happy

well duh :) who'd venture outside without their lead-lined underpants on these days anyway?

[Glass_rain]

if this happens, I just flick the lights off and on and rev the engine,
seems to work for me

[Steam]

So do it.

As far as Wellington goes nudemetalz has said on KB before the WCC will respond to polite requests to adjust the sensor sensitivity and he works in the traffic dept.

Yep, but I want to have them pay attention to every set of lights as a matter of general maintenance, whenever they open the box to fiddle. I ride over the entire damn city, I'll be damned if I'm going to write down every single set of lights and call them in one by one.

[James Deuce]

That's not particularly helpful mate. The only set of lights in the Wellington region I can't trigger is in the Hutt and it's the Korokoro/SH2 intersection. They have to dig up the intersection to fix it though, because apparently Fulton Hogan have buried the sensors 6 inches deeper than they should have, so I have to wait until they start altering those intersections. No big deal.

One thing you can do to help yourself, is line the bike up directly over the sensor wires. You can see them quite easily at most intersections. There is a grid like a closed off capital "H". Come to a halt over one of the uprights at the intersection. Works 99% of the time for me.

I do think you're being unreasonable and being part of the problem instead of part of the solution though.

[Babelfish]

For fuck sakes dont ring them or send a single thing, otherwise I'll have no excuse to run more reds :drool:

[McJim]

Apparently turning your engine off and then back on again works - dunno why - I was just told it.

Never had a prob - always had a bike with a steel frame (saw too many Aluminium frames fail on MTBs).

[Delphinus]

Good on ya Steam. Its something they should be made aware of so as to ensure they check it in the future when doing work... and so FH are not allowed to make that mistake in the future.

[saltydog]

Geeze Wayne, do you think you should live in a provincial town with no traffic lights.......?
Certainly wouldnt have to worry about chatting EM sensitivity with some geezer so you can get to work on time. In fact stuff the work, wake up post-rush hour and go for a nice long ride. My heart bleeds :yes:

[Slingshot]

So much for the hard biker image!!

Oh deary me...my wee bikey won't make the light turn green...I think I'll write a letter of complaint!!

I must be in the 1% of motorcyclists that the sensors work fine for, never had a problem on the R6.

[Drum]

I've only had issues at that Korokoro/ SH2 intersection myself.

[Hitcher]

The right-turn off Old Hutt Road up the Ngaio Gorge can be a bit problematic after hours.

[Shadows]

Coming off the Haywards is a bastard. I run it all the time.

[Burger]

Are you guys talking about the one on SH2 that goes up to Kelson ?

That one is fucked if you come down Major Drive and want to go into Wellington. I won't moan too much because I can't be arsed ringing anybody about it.

[James Deuce]

Are you guys talking about the one on SH2 that goes up to Kelson ?

That one is fucked if you come down Major Drive and want to go into Wellington. I won't moan too much because I can't be arsed ringing anybody about it.


No, but the one coming off London Rd onto SH2 at Korokoro does the same thing in the same direction.

[Renegade]

yeah lights round wellington suck, good on steam for being pissy enough to moan about it.

STICK IT TO THE MAN!

[James Deuce]

The point I'm trying to make and you lot seem to be too thick to understand, is that the "man" has actually offered to help.

Tell them which ones don't work so they can fix them. Don't just go, "Waaah, Wellington lights suck, and you Council people are dicks and hate bikes", because you're just screwing it up for the rest of us.

What a pack of babies.

[Hawkeye]

The point I'm trying to make and you lot seem to be too thick to understand, is that the "man" has actually offered to help.

Tell them which ones don't work so they can fix them. Don't just go, "Waaah, Wellington lights suck, and you Council people are dicks and hate bikes", because you're just screwing it up for the rest of us.

What a pack of babies.


Jim,
There is not only one technician maintaining lights. So asking one guy to check one set of lights because he is currently working on them is not the answer.
I know of at least 6 sets that don't work. I'm sure that the 6 I know of are different to the list that others would come up with.
Maybe it would be easier to come up with a list of ones that do work eh! It would probably be shorter.

Steam is not just moaning about the lights, he is pointing out a flaw to someone that is in a position to do something about it. A letter like this may be enough for the manager to arrange that the sensitivity of all sensors are checked as a standard practice rather than waiting for a list to come in.

You seem to be throwing your toys out of the cot on a regular basis now.
Maybe you should look a bit closer to home before accusing others of being 'babies'.

[Steam]

You've missed the point Jim2, but Hawkeye has it extremely right, exactly. We can't complain about every set of lights that don't recognise us, that would be an ongoing and thankless task.
Instead the techs could just check the sensitivity every time they open the box to inspect or fiddle or whatever. Just add an extra 30-second task to their job.
I'll re-hash MY letter to emphasise this.

Jim please feel free to send another letter saying you are a hard-man and have an inductive arse, and that my letter is sent by a hemp-wearing hippie who rides a bike made of sticks and recycled mud.



Steam is not just moaning about the lights, he is pointing out a flaw to someone that is in a position to do something about it. ... arrange that the sensitivity of all sensors are checked as a standard practice rather than waiting for a list to come in.





Tell them which ones don't work so they can fix them. Don't just go, "Waaah, Wellington lights suck, and you Council people are dicks and hate bikes", because you're just screwing it up for the rest of us.

[nudemetalz]

I've just seen this thread.
I work with Soon Teck and he is a great guy.
Us WCC people don't just tell people to pee off if they have some complaints.

Case in point is Helston Road. I've been campaigning to the higher ups about the condition of that road, in particular being a deathtrap in the wet for us bikers. 50% has been done and I am still working on the rest.

With the traffic light sensors, feel free to let me know I can do get on to the right people straight away and eliminate any red-tape etc.

Remember, I'm not riding at present so I don't know which ones are bad for us.

NDMz

[Waylander]

Go the heavy bikes.

I'vegot this one light that alwys gave me trouble on my ride to work. Comming off of Route P here in Tauranga and up a hill to Waihi Rd to turn right.

Used to sit for quite a while waiting for the light to turn red and it doesn't always change for cars either though.
One day I noticed that the signs of the sensor grid are actually farther back down the hill and fairly narrow aswell so cars don't always hit it. I tried revving my engine as I passed over that spot one day and the light changed before I came to a complete stop. Same thing the next day. Problem solved for me.


Anyway the answere you'll probably get back from them is to get a car.

[Steam]

Go the heavy bikes.

I'm sure you've read all those threads where it's explained the sensors are inductive sensors, they sense the electrical current generated by metal (ferrous) objects passing through their magnetic field. Not weight.

[Waylander]

I'm sure you've read all those threads where it's explained the sensors are inductive sensors, they sense the electrical current generated by metal (ferrous) objects passing through their magnetic field. Not weight.
More metal in my bike than most others mate. Better chance of it being picked up by the sensors.

[James Deuce]

You've missed the point Jim2, but Hawkeye has it extremely right, exactly. We can't complain about every set of lights that don't recognise us, that would be an ongoing and thankless task.
Instead the techs could just check the sensitivity every time they open the box to inspect or fiddle or whatever. Just add an extra 30-second task to their job.
I'll re-hash MY letter to emphasise this.

Jim please feel free to send another letter saying you are a hard-man and have an inductive arse, and that my letter is sent by a hemp-wearing hippie who rides a bike made of sticks and recycled mud.

I've tried to tell you guys that I have spoken to this guy before over the phone and had two sensors fixed, one in Murphy St and one in Featherston St. You've sent off a ranty letter that just goes to show what a bunch of loud mouthed wankers motorcyclists are, demanding special rights and attention. Believe me, providing exact information means that the next time the sensor box is visited IT WILL BE FIXED.

You seem to think this guy is stupid and completely unable to plan for future work.

If you can't provide specific instances it can't be added to a future plan of work can it? They're not just going to go out and adjust them all because someone moaned. I would suggest that that would be a somewhat more thankless task than knowing which few don't work

If you can't be part of the solution what is the point of contacting an agency for help?

Just like most "politically aware" NZers you're perfectly happy to point out what you think is wrong with a system, but you won't get off your bum and help.

I can't get over just how helpful WCC traffic people are. I politely emailed and asked if it would be possible to look at having a bike park nearer to work and 6 weeks later there was one right outside my building. They are NOT the enemy.

[Steam]

I
If you can't provide specific instances it can't be added to a future plan of work can it?

Sigh. You just don't get it do you Jim?
Even after it's been explained to you several times.

[James Deuce]

No YOU don't get it.

When I've contacted them in the past they have asked me to provide any other instances of sensors that create problems.

You're just having a whinge for the sake of it.

Your letter was destructive and faintly insulting, to a bunch of people who've repeatedly shown to me that they are willing to help with any reasonable request. You made unreasonable demands in your letter and whined about "safety".

It is actually an EXTREMELY rare sensor that doesn't pick up a bike, and as I've said YOU need to review your procedure for tripping lights.

[Delphinus]

From what I've gathered a number of people are having trouble at a number of lights... that indicates to me that its not rare.

The letter in my opinion looked non-destructive and quite formal. Which is good. Steam raised a point that is valid and asked politely whether in the future this issue (sensor sensitivity) could be taken into account with regular work.
If they dont get feedback, they cant improve can they? Goes for anything and anyone.


You're just having a whinge for the sake of it.
Who are we talking about again sorry ;)

Just remember Jim2, other people are allowed valid opinions other than yours...

[James Deuce]

I'm not voicing an opinion. They've asked for specific feedback about specific intersections before, and providing the information got them fixed.

Given my own experiences in the same town on anything from 250s to 1900cc bikes I don't see where Steam or Hawkeye are coming from, and as I've said , correct positioning at an intersection will trigger the lights 99% of the time. I personally only have an issue with one set of lights in the Wellington region and they are in the Hutt.

Any letter requesting assistance from an "authority" that has no factual corroborated evidence, more than one paragraph, and wants global change for the whole Wellington region falls into talk back radio listener territory.

Steam doesn't attempt even faintly to provide any assistance to the people he is demanding action from.

[Bass]

I'm with Jim2 on this one for 2 reasons: -
1. If the people we're trying to reach have shown themselves to be helpful, then let's help them in return.
2. With inductive sensors, I believe that calibrating the sensitivity actually requires the presence of the object being calibrated for - in this case a bike. I think it's unreasonable to ask the techos to take a bike everywhere they go when working on the light controls, but they just might be able to manage something if given specific instances.

[Winter]

What happens if they are 'over sensitive'? Will the trigger when a seagull / helicopter flys above?

So surely WCC can read that letter, say;

"Oh, looks like this problem is more widespread than Jim2's commute to work, how about we make it standard proceedure for anyone opening a traffic light box to wind the senstivity up full bore.
That way we will ensure, albeit eventually, that every intersection in WC is bike friendly."

[Bass]

What happens if they are 'over sensitive'? Will the trigger when a seagull / helicopter flys above?


Sorry but I cannot comment on traffic light sensors specifically. However, for the inductive sensors that I have played around with, if the sensitivity is too high they can saturate and refuse to turn off.
I suspect that traffic light sensors behave much like a commercial metal detector and so will detect any conductive material but some better than others - ferrous metals will work best. They may also need the metal to be moving to be detected, which would explain why revving the motor sometimes works.
This would also mean that each sensor has to be individually tuned - no 2 would be exactly alike and so standard settings are not feasible.

[mdooher]

I can see both sides here but in my humble opinion "Do it right the first time" The sensor needs to be adjusted properly from the start and periodically after that. If they don't have a motor bike what’s wrong with a calibrated trolley or even a calibrated rubbish bin lid. It isn't rocket science.

Oh yeah, faulty lights has been used as a defense before but you need to be very sure the way is clear etc

[Toaster]

So much for the hard biker image!!

Oh deary me...my wee bikey won't make the light turn green...I think I'll write a letter of complaint!!

I must be in the 1% of motorcyclists that the sensors work fine for, never had a problem on the R6.

Well, can't say I ever had trouble either, even on my previous bikes.... but then my current toy is carrying a fair bit of metal. Does this make us "1%ers" ??!!!

[Bass]

If they don't have a motor bike what’s wrong with a calibrated trolley or even a calibrated rubbish bin lid.

Yep, something like that would do the trick.
However, they would have to stop traffic to use it which puts a few limitations on it.

[Delphinus]

So surely WCC can read that letter, say;

"Oh, looks like this problem is more widespread than Jim2's commute to work, how about we make it standard proceedure for anyone opening a traffic light box to wind the senstivity up full bore.
That way we will ensure, albeit eventually, that every intersection in WC is bike friendly."

Thats pretty much what most of us were referring to. Let them know there is an issue, so they plan to fix it properly, instead of just a quick fix for a few routes.


Yep, something like that would do the trick.
However, they would have to stop traffic to use it which puts a few limitations on it.

Not always, especially if its a multiple lane intersection, just a couple of cones etc and only block off 1 lane at a time.

[James Deuce]

What happens if they are 'over sensitive'? Will the trigger when a seagull / helicopter flys above?

So surely WCC can read that letter, say;

"Oh, looks like this problem is more widespread than Jim2's commute to work, how about we make it standard proceedure for anyone opening a traffic light box to wind the senstivity up full bore.
That way we will ensure, albeit eventually, that every intersection in WC is bike friendly."

I only have a problem with one set of lights in the Wellington Region. I'm talking Wellington, The Hutt, and Kapiti. I'm not just talking about my commute.

This particular letter is addressed to only one part of that region which involves some of my commute true, but I don't JUST ride to and from work thanks.

This thread should get an award for the flimsiest use of reason, and for some fairly incredible Giant Leaps to a Faulty Conclusion.

[Winter]

I only have a problem with one set of lights in the Wellington Region. I'm talking Wellington, The Hutt, and Kapiti. I'm not just talking about my commute.


Oh, I didn't catch that. I guess it means that nobody else, anywhere in the world, or, the Wellington region has a problem with them.

Don't worry guys. Jim2 hasn't noticed the problem anywhere else, so it must not be a problem.



This particular letter is addressed to only one part of that region which involves some of my commute true, but I don't JUST ride to and from work thanks.

This region does not involve any of my commute, or other riding area.. This is not my argument, so I'll move right along.

[James Deuce]

That's not what I'm saying at all, and as I've said repeatedly there is a technique to getting the lights to trigger reliably.

But I've run into the normal attitude that "someone else should fix it, it's not my responsibility", haven't I?

You guys have got to start being part of the solution. The old style motorcyclist solution of shouting and bullying people to get what they want is hugely counter productive.

Help these guys come up with a solution. Let YOUR local body authority know if you are having trouble. Don't log on to KB and get churlish with me because that won't fix it.

[Delphinus]

Help these guys come up with a solution. Let YOUR local body authority know if you are having trouble.

Isn't that what the letter is all about? Trying to let people know there is a problem that they might not be aware of?

[mdb]

The Kelson lights are the same. The real pain is that many cars seem scared of bikes so hang back 5 metres!

[Steam]

I've not sent it yet, I'll take Jim's helpful and constructive criticism on board and make it a much more casual letter just saying what I think and what I think the solution could be.

[zooter]

Hey Steam, I'm with you but you should turn the tone of your letter around from "attempting to bully the guy into doing the right thing because he must surely be one of them useless council pricks" to simply outlining the problem,
"widespread lack of detection" and solution, recalibrate town with sidestand sized chunk of steel wafted over? And ask for a reply.

[Reckless]

Steam

I thought your letter was well written, to the point and polite. Ringing up 3 times a week about each specific set of lights would make you a pain. You'd get "oh its that guy again". But getting the sensitivity increased as part of their daily routine seems like a good approach.

But if it doesn't work or you get a negitive response, go to Jim2's approach and ring about every specific light you want fixed and keep at it, till you can trigger the lights. From the other comments here about WCC it won't need to get to that.:yes:

I'd maybe modify the "if not,why not" and remove the posting to web site line on the first contact as they are a little threatening rather than being constructive, as you are attemping.

Otherwise send it as is. And send a copy to Manukau CC, Auckland CC, Waitakeri CC. I'm like the others and shoot reds fairly often.
If ya get desperate you could, sit on the untriggered sensor, with a line of fustrated cars behind, and get out the mobile phone, call the guy, and let him listen to the tooting and swearing behind ya.:scooter:

[90s]

What happens if they are 'over sensitive'? Will the trigger when a seagull ... flies overhead

erm, generally seagulls don't have much metal content or much of an EM field.

Or maybe they do in your scary-ass cyborg bird-town? Ark!

[90s]

Steam / Jim2, move to Auckland. The problem of not having a car in front of you at every lights at any time of day to trigger them won't be a problem anymore ...

Seriously though I can see where both of you are coming from. Jim2 you have a local solution that works through direct contact; Steam is onto a global solution through a change in the methods of maintainance employed at the systems level.
There's no reason these two approaches can't be implemented - Jim2's on a case-as-you-find it approach and Steam's on making the 'higher ups' have a record of a problem.

From my work I often find people at the lower levels doing the work (ie techs) routinely fixing problems and making things happen that the higher ups are simply unaware of. The problem is that things may or may not happen in this scenario. Making the higher-ups aware is the start of a process and gets something onto their radar. Action from this is likely to take a long time but might may eventually make the tech guys lives easier if the jobs they are doing are recognised and it becomes routine for all techs.

OK, now I'm prepared to be flamed by you both ...