Do I really need my rear brake?

[Steam]

Okay okay, this sounds like a Renegade Master question, but really, do I?
I mean, I hardly ever use it anyway.
I'd like to go off to the KB gathering in Turangi tomorrow but my rear brake is stuck on slightly due to an old piston seal not retracting properly.
The pads rub against the disc, and it gets too hot to touch. So I'd just detach it and drain the fluid till I can get it fixed next week.
This is a really bad idea, eh?

Thanks to Renegade Master for paving the way for this question.

[kevfromcoro]

sounds like it wouldnt be to hard to fix the rear caliper.....pull it off and clean it up..as far as riding without a back brake.........dont think its a very good idea at all.......

[tri boy]

Check that your pedal linkage has some freeplay at the master cylinder pin.
The link needs 2-3mm to ensure that the cylinder rod returns completely.
This can cause dragging brakes.
Don't travel on it if you don't have full confidence in your brakes.
Hitchhike there instead.:yes: :shit:

[Drum]

....This is a really bad idea, eh?.....

Yeah, I reckon it is Steam. Bikes gotta be fully functioning eh.

[ZeroIndex]

Go on... I dare 'ya... go ahead, see what happens

[moT]

nah u will be sweet u dont need it

[James Deuce]

Looks like Tom has got his June Muppet nomination in early.

[xgnr]

No don't do it!!! Get the damn thing fixed. You need both brakes:shit:

[ZeroIndex]

Go on... I dare 'ya... go ahead, see what happens


nah u will be sweet u dont need it



Looks like Tom has got his June Muppet nomination in early.


I've watched a couple of "Learn how to wheelie" videos, and in them, they talk about the rear brake, like it's some mysterious object that has never even been touched... They go on to say "Many of you have probably never even used your rear brake before, but when pulling a wheelie, you need to use it if the front goes up to high" or something of that extent

[Drew]

Both brakes are required, but I know I'd just disconnect them and ride without for a day or two, so cant tell you not to.

[Colapop]

James ya dick! Didn't you just do RRRS? And they didn't teach you nothing? Do you know why there's a wof system? Not bagging you bro, but use the pimple on your shoulders....


(yeah yeah I know Hitch.. bad grammar)

[Steam]

Heh, thanks Cola, nah, I won't do it, didn't really seriously consider it. (but this thread wasn't a troll, I swear!)

I did just do RRRS, and interestingly they said "In an emergency braking situation, don't worry about the back brake, just concentrate 100% on the front brake."
They had good reasons which I can't be bothered to repeat here, but it was interesting.

I shall use my pimple in future, if it doesn't pop first.


James ya dick! Didn't you just do RRRS? And they didn't teach you nothing?

[xwhatsit]

First of all -- don't you have two bikes? Or three? The GN sold, didn't it?

Personally I use my rear brake a lot -- it's wonderful in stop-start 5kph traffic. I use it when cornering at a (for me) brisk pace. Perfect for pulling up to the lights with my recalcitrant engine; whack into first gear, pull the clutch, blip the throttle with all my hand (otherwise it'll stall -- you have to be veeeeewry smooth, which means all your fingers) and slow the last few kph to a stop. Of course I cover my front brake nearly all the time, and use it for stopping/slowing for >8kph, but I'd be lost without my rear.

It's a drum brake, too, so it has wonderful feel and bite compared to the softcock miniature single front disc. I love drum brakes, I want a TLS front end. Plus you don't have to arse about with flaming piston seals like you've discovered.

[Steam]

First of all -- don't you have two bikes? Or three? The GN sold, didn't it?


Yes, I have only two now, but I'm not keen to ride the SR250 up to Turangi, it's a bit uncomfortable for long rides now I've made it all nasty.


[when braking I... blip the throttle with all my hand (otherwise it'll stall -- you have to be veeeeewry smooth, which means all your fingers) and slow the last few kph to a stop.

My bike does the same, stalls at the lights as I brake. Something to do with braking altering the fuel mix in the carbs? What is it that does that? It's annoying. I have to blip the throttle ever so slightly, just as you describe.

[Terminated]

..............

[Mully]

Looks like Tom has got his June Muppet nomination in early.


Heh, nice.

Brakes are for sooks. Just use your feet to slow down.

[Kickaha]

So I'd just detach it and drain the fluid till I can get it fixed next week.
This is a really bad idea, eh?

.

Take the caliper apart and clean it, 20 minute job and probably a 95% chance of fixing the problem(so long as you are mechanically competent to do it)

[riffer]

Heh, nice.

Brakes are for sooks. Just use your feet to slow down.


You've been taking riding lessons from my youngest son, haven't you?

[DougB]

Some years ago I entertained a member of the Ullyses
club and his wife. (I lived in the Bay of Islands then and
so had many interesting visitors)

THIS MOTORCYCLIST HAD ONLY ONE LEG

His wife rode her own bike.

He claimed that he had no fears about just having a front brake. I admired his pluck. Can you imagine the concentration needed to make sure you did not tip over on the legless side when stopping.

Last year I met his wife in Hamilton, I did not have time to ask how he was faring.

For town riding I have a Suzuki Epicuro scooter. The rear
brake on it is nearly non existent. A bad design fault,
when I get on my bike I find I nearly ignore the rear brake on it as a consequence.

I always remember my Moto Guzzi with affection and
found the intergrated braking system it had a very good stopper.

[quallman1234]

Isnt the road Gravel or something in places to the place you guys are staying?.

If so you should only use your rear brake on gravel hence you need your rear brake, you can always "blip" the front brake so it doesnt lock on gravel.

What brakes were you using last sunday on the gravel stuff when you went to the buckets?

Correct me if im wrong.

[Steam]

What brakes were you using last sunday on the gravel stuff when you went to the buckets?

I was on my other bike at the buckets, and I used the front brake... going around a corner... on the gravel... and fell off. Still got a nice bruise on my leg. Damn mountainbiker nearby laughed her head off.

Live and learn eh! (At low speeds it's not too painful a process!)

[Bonez]

Steam the bike hasn't had new rear pads put in recently? Could be that the after market pad material is thicker than standard, therefore pushing the caliper piston in further than usual and binding on crud/rust on the outer part of the piston.

[Steam]

Steam the bike hasn't had new rear pads put in recently? Could be that the after market pad material is thicker than standard, therefore pushing the caliper piston in further than usual and binding on crud/rust on the outer part of the piston.

No, I'm pretty sure it's the old seals. Thanks for the suggestions though.

[jade]

bah, you dont need rear brake except for gravel, even then you can get by without it,
I rode my nsr with no front brakes for a week!

[avgas]

No................................................ .......its just like mirrors, indicators, front brakes, gears.
You can ride fine without them all.
I've done so previously

[Bonez]

No, I'm pretty sure it's the old seals. Thanks for the suggestions though.Now the techs will poo poo this idea. Squirt a little, and I mean a little with the little tube attached, wd40 around the seal(under the dust cover if it has one) and piston bore. Let sit for a bit then push the piston/pistons in a few mill (a g-clap does the job just nicely using a bit of wood to prevent damage to the piston/pistons or caliper casting), then apply the brake (after g-clamp has been removed obviously). Do this a couple of times making sure you see the piston going in and out. Clean the area around the piston/pistons with a rag and something that will poke it in around the pistons. Then push the piston/pistons move all the way in and make sure its moving freely in and out. Also sure there's something stopping the piston/s from popping out of the caliper like a piece of wood. It'd be a good idea to change the brake fluid while your at it also.

I hope that makes sence. I've done this on a few bikes, including two bikes I currently own/ride, with positive results.

Disclaimer- Obviously perform this task at your own risk yadda yada yada.

[jonbuoy]

Don't you find it handy on hill starts?

[xwhatsit]

Don't you find it handy on hill starts?

Yes, bloody useful then -- except most of the time I wish I had the brake on the other side, so I could put my foot down without feeling like I'm going to fall off. British bikes, for drive-on-the-left roads, left-hand brake. It makes sense.

[moT]

leave it off it will stop you trying to drift your bike

[The Pastor]

Okay okay, this sounds like a Renegade Master question, but really, do I?
I mean, I hardly ever use it anyway.
I'd like to go off to the KB gathering in Turangi tomorrow but my rear brake is stuck on slightly due to an old piston seal not retracting properly.
The pads rub against the disc, and it gets too hot to touch. So I'd just detach it and drain the fluid till I can get it fixed next week.
This is a really bad idea, eh?

Thanks to Renegade Master for paving the way for this question.

You're more than welcome steam.


As usal the kb muppets who don't know ANYTHING say don't do it.


Ive ridden with out a rear brake for months. It is perfectly acceptable and fine to do so, 80% of your braking effort comes from your front brakes.

The rear brake is really only used in situations like hillstarts and when you want to do a skid or somthing.


ITS LIKE ANYTHING IF YOU KNOW YOUR BIKE DOESNT HAVE A REAR BRAKE RIDE --->ACCORDINGLY<---- you are in controll of the bike, you are the one who can make the bike work for you.

[The Pastor]

leave it off it will stop you trying to drift your bike

bikes larger than 400cc use power to drift.

[quallman1234]

I missed type that, the fronts always going to be stronger than the rear.

Sorry about that, i just noticed my mistake :P:rockon:

[Pathos]

I heavily favor the rear brake, puts less movement on the front forks so the bike reacts faster and no understeer.

[McJim]

How do you perform a hill start without a rear brake?

[Kickaha]

How do you perform a hill start without a rear brake?

you use your front one, it's not that hard to do

[Colapop]

Having locked up the rear brake - twice, signifigantly I reccomend leaving it alone for the most part. But in wet weatherI do use it a little. it takes the prssure off the front a bit

[moT]

really rear brake is not essential you can get 100% stopping power from the front the rear can be handy in some situations like in a whellie but thats more dangerous than haveing no brake at all if you have the skill you really dont need the rear but you need it if you want a warrent so get it fixed before your next warrent

[moko]

really rear brake is not essential you can get 100% stopping power from the front
So you've got front and back brakes Tom yet reckon you can get 100% stopping power from the front...bollocks,that's that one sorted.
If you're a competent rider you'll find plenty of use for your back brakes,a proper emergency stop will involve both and you'll find your bike a lot easier to control on slippery or loose surfaces when you might well find today's front brakes massively over-powerful in that kind of situation,a rear wheel slide or lock-up is much easier to get out of than a front.Just back off and release the brake and as long as you don't panic or do something silly she'll just straighten up,your front wheel starts to go and usually you're going down.
Bike companies spend a lot of money designing their bikes,especially these days.There's a reason why they fit brakes front and rear,a reason why one is more powerful than the other,why different grade pads are used e.t.c.If they were just ornaments they wouldn't bother would they?
You guys who don't use your rear brake,try it,practice a bit,might just save you from an accident one day,one good tip is to adjust the switch so you can bring on your brake light earlier as a warning to following numpties to back off without actually braking.
As for the original question,if it's getting hot mate somethings binding,if somethings binding you might well find your rear brake locking on at any time...and that's dangerous.One thing I've done before that sometimes works,get a hide mallet,or even a bit of a wood to protect your calipers and a hammer,and give the caliper a sharp tap,might or might not free it up.If your not 100% sure of your brakes don't ride,if you cant fix it yourself sounds like something a competent mech can fix in 30 minutes,and preoperly at that.

[DEATH_INC.]

I'll make it simple, don't be a retard, get it fixed if you can't do it yourself. Like Moko said, there's two for a reason.

[speights_bud]

bikes larger than 400cc use power to drift.

And bikes under... although the rear brake may assist i regularly use clutch/engine braking to slide into corners when i'm just having a play and not overly concerned about total corner speed.

However, both your front and rear brakes do assist each other in different situations, as above with gravel etc and front end washing out. personally i use front brake for 90% of cornering and cover the rear just to keep the back end under control. each rider and bike to his own i presume.

[moT]

So you've got front and back brakes Tom yet reckon you can get 100% stopping power from the front...bollocks,that's that one sorted.
If you're a competent rider you'll find plenty of use for your back brakes,a proper emergency stop will involve both and you'll find your bike a lot easier to control on slippery or loose surfaces when you might well find today's front brakes massively over-powerful in that kind of situation,a rear wheel slide or lock-up is much easier to get out of than a front.Just back off and release the brake and as long as you don't panic or do something silly she'll just straighten up,your front wheel starts to go and usually you're going down.
Bike companies spend a lot of money designing their bikes,especially these days.There's a reason why they fit brakes front and rear,a reason why one is more powerful than the other,why different grade pads are used e.t.c.If they were just ornaments they wouldn't bother would they?
You guys who don't use your rear brake,try it,practice a bit,might just save you from an accident one day,one good tip is to adjust the switch so you can bring on your brake light earlier as a warning to following numpties to back off without actually braking.
As for the original question,if it's getting hot mate somethings binding,if somethings binding you might well find your rear brake locking on at any time...and that's dangerous.One thing I've done before that sometimes works,get a hide mallet,or even a bit of a wood to protect your calipers and a hammer,and give the caliper a sharp tap,might or might not free it up.If your not 100% sure of your brakes don't ride,if you cant fix it yourself sounds like something a competent mech can fix in 30 minutes,and preoperly at that.

if the front brake can stop 100% of your bike weight how can bikes stoppie? yes there are uses for the rear brake and im not saying they shouldnt be on the bike but its not vitalfor emergency stops, if your skilled enough u can stop just as fast wth only the front than both.. under heavy breaking you may want to touch your rear brake as the suspention shifts its way back after breaking.. yes do use the rear for gravel rideing as its hard to tell when the front is gonna tuck under...

[moT]

And bikes under... although the rear brake may assist i regularly use clutch/engine braking to slide into corners when i'm just having a play and not overly concerned about total corner speed.

However, both your front and rear brakes do assist each other in different situations, as above with gravel etc and front end washing out. personally i use front brake for 90% of cornering and cover the rear just to keep the back end under control. each rider and bike to his own i presume.

yes true you can still drift the bike without rear brake.. by useing front to lighten rear then compression lock rear or over power rear although a lot harder... dont try that at home or on road for anymatter

[James Deuce]

if the front brake can stop 100% of your bike weight how can bikes stoppie? yes there are uses for the rear brake and im not saying they shouldnt be on the bike but its not vitalfor emergency stops, if your skilled enough u can stop just as fast wth only the front than both.. under heavy breaking you may want to touch your rear brake as the suspention shifts its way back after breaking.. yes do use the rear for gravel rideing as its hard to tell when the front is gonna tuck under...

I think you need someone competent to show you the difference in stopping distance between rear alone, front alone, and front and rear used together on your bike. I think you would be very surprised at just how far you go into the door of the car that just pulled out on you if you use front alone.

You've a lot to learn mate, but I know I'm just pissing into the wind trying to tell a 19 year old anything.

[moT]

I think you need someone competent to show you the difference in stopping distance between rear alone, front alone, and front and rear used together on your bike. I think you would be very surprised at just how far you go into the door of the car that just pulled out on you if you use front alone.

You've a lot to learn mate, but I know I'm just pissing into the wind trying to tell a 19 year old anything.

Im gonna have to test this.

[James Deuce]

As I said get someone competent to do it and then explain to you how it works. It isn't simple and requires practice. But you will stop quicker with both if you know how to use them correctly. If you don't practice and then try it in an emergency you'll run out of mental processing power and make the problem worse.

A lot of training schools advocate concentrating on using the front brake only but running from cruiser to sportsbike this will give you 60%-90% of your maximum braking potential.

[moT]

i find on the race track that i can brake on the front as hard if not harder than other people using both. It also means that the rear end of the bike isnt fishtailing into a corner i think its better if you can do most of the breaking on the front with the rear on the limit rather than the rear stepping out..

[James Deuce]

Definitely on a race track the front brake is primary. I have however used my rear brake to tighten a line.

You don't use the brakes on a race track to stop though. It is a device for managing negative acceleration to set your corner entry speed.

On the road you use it to stop. There is a vast gap between race track brake usage and road usage.

I use two fingers to adjust my speed, but four to stop. I get better feel, modulation, and power from all four fingers.

[Boob Johnson]

Yes, I have only two now, but I'm not keen to ride the SR250 up to Turangi, it's a bit uncomfortable for long rides now I've made it all nasty.



My bike does the same, stalls at the lights as I brake. Something to do with braking altering the fuel mix in the carbs? What is it that does that? It's annoying. I have to blip the throttle ever so slightly, just as you describe.My SR is exactly the same, use the back brake in traffic while I threw the gears "blipping" the throttle as you say. That and my front shocks are a lil on the soft side. A mate of mine calls it "the magic carpet ride" lol




i find on the race track that i can brake on the front as hard if not harder than other people using both. It also means that the rear end of the bike isnt fishtailing into a corner i think its better if you can do most of the breaking on the front with the rear on the limit rather than the rear stepping out..Nail on the head :yes:

[James Deuce]

Boob, I think you should probably think about some rider training too, and I mean that in a nice way. Tom has described race track usage which is NOT, emphatically NOT, anything like using a bike on the road.

[Boob Johnson]

Boob, I think you should probably think about some rider training too, and I mean that in a nice way. Tom has described race track usage which is NOT, emphatically NOT, anything like using a bike on the road.

I do realise this Jim :niceone:


Just because I agree doesnt mean I dont know anything. In saying that I certainly would benefit from some training as im sure most would, even 20+ year veterans would gain from some training :msn-wink:

[NordieBoy]

If so you should only use your rear brake on gravel hence you need your rear brake, you can always "blip" the front brake so it doesnt lock on gravel.

You use only your rear brake on gravel?
I use my front 95% of the time and I've never "blipped" it.

But then I am a gravel riding god.

Later I won't be but after todays ride, in the immortal words of James Brown, "I feel good!"

[James Deuce]

I do realise this Jim :niceone:


Just because I agree doesnt mean I dont know anything. In saying that I certainly would benefit from some training as im sure most would, even 20+ year veterans would gain from some training :msn-wink:

I'm suggesting that agreeing so emphatically with Tom's statement means that you should probably actively seek differing opinions and practice them under supervision to find what works for you best. There isn't a right answer in this case and I'm trying to suggest finding your right answer instead of someone else's.

I do some sort of course every 2 years.

[moT]

I'm suggesting that agreeing so emphatically with Tom's statement means that you should probably actively seek differing opinions and practice them under supervision to find what works for you best. There isn't a right answer in this case and I'm trying to suggest finding your right answer instead of someone else's.

I do some sort of course every 2 years.

i understand that you perobably have had more experience rideing on the road being older and all... but what makes you such an expert on brakeing? race track rideing is not soo much different from road rideing its still a hard fairly flat surface which have the same attributes as the road. rideing courses always tell you to use the rear brake thats mainly because most people cant use there front brake to its full potential and to use the rear as a safe measure as fliping over the front of the bike is pretty sore.. im not saying i can use the front to its full but i believe with some practice that people can emergeny stop just as fast and more under control with the front rather than using both brakes and haveing the rear locking up

[James Deuce]

I reckon racing an RG50, KH100, VFR400 and an RC30 give me a bit of insight Tom.

Plus I can read. There's a LOT of literature about braking on the race track compared to the road.

[moT]

I reckon racing an RG50, KH100, VFR400 and an RC30 give me a bit of insight Tom.

Plus I can read. There's a LOT of literature about braking on the race track compared to the road.



then you should know that 95-100% of breaking is done with the front on the track this brakeing can be used to adust speed into a corner but the front brake is not only designed to regulate speed but to also stop you. so if you do it on the race trach at much higher speeds what says you cant do the same thing on the road or its unsafe to do this on the road? again it is still a flat object. but back to the main question you can do it and i would say it would be safe but if you get pulled up you will probably get fined so i would get it fixed as soon as possible

[N4CR]

no you dont if you use front brakes properly the rear becomes pretty much useless in straight line stopping you can back it in with rear or use it to control wheelies that's about all i can think of/use it for it's great fun locking into corners going sliding around wiggly waggly woo it makes great sucess but thta's about it. can still get waggly when brakng real real ****in hard cus it lifts rear slightly/skips it that's real good fun just make sure the corner isn't real close or you're going for a tumble hahahahaha
give me my caps/swearing back spank

[xwhatsit]

if the front brake can stop 100% of your bike weight how can bikes stoppie?

Well yeah, if you go by that definition then the front brake can stop 100% of your bike's weight. But by that definition then the back brake can stop 100% of your bike's weight too. You're getting a bit mixed up with your physics there.

It's easy to explain. Does a 4WD car have a higher tolerance to wheelspin than a 2WD car, all things being equal? Of course. You're spreading out the accelerating force over a larger grip area. Likewise, if you spread out your braking force over a larger area (two wheels instead of one), you can stop quicker before grip limits are reached. The rear wheel carries less braking force, however, just like the 4WD can't put as much power through the front wheels. This is because of weight transfer. Nevertheless, the improvement is there.

You're also missing Jim2's point. He's not talking about the track -- he agrees with you that front brakes are mostly all you need to worry about on the track -- however he's saying that riding on the track and riding on the road are vastly different, and you will need both brakes riding on the road.

Reading comprehension is a skill sorely lacking from this website, and not just in those who like to get their knee down more than most ^_^

[sAsLEX]

No don't do it!!! Get the damn thing fixed. You need both brakes:shit:

I must ask why you would NEED it if you never use it....... ok I skipped most of this thread......... but its dangerous to all of a sudden start using the back brake in an emergency if you never use it normally, I know I hardly touch mine except for hill starts and sitting up at red lights?!

[iwilde]

I must ask why you would NEED it if you never use it....... ok I skipped most of this thread......... but its dangerous to all of a sudden start using the back brake in an emergency if you never use it normally, I know I hardly touch mine except for hill starts and sitting up at red lights?!

Thats pretty much all I use mine for as well. The first and last time I used the back brake I locked the rear up and went over a drop off! Bloody hurt to!

[shcabbeh]

I was always taught to use the rear brake in tandem with the front when braking. Basically the rear steadies the bike. Stops it from trying to overtake the front if you apply it too hard.

75% front and 25% back is how I've ridden. I wouldn't suggest removing the back at all.

[James Deuce]

then you should know that 95-100% of breaking is done with the front on the track this brakeing can be used to adust speed into a corner but the front brake is not only designed to regulate speed but to also stop you. so if you do it on the race trach at much higher speeds what says you cant do the same thing on the road or its unsafe to do this on the road? again it is still a flat object. but back to the main question you can do it and i would say it would be safe but if you get pulled up you will probably get fined so i would get it fixed as soon as possible

Go back and read my post and then have a think about how pointless that post was.

Thank heavens for people like Mr Xerxesdaphat. Otherwise I might have to detonate all those bombs I made with the recipes I downloaded from the Internet.

[sAsLEX]

Go back and read my post and then have a think about how pointless that post was.

Thank heavens for people like Mr Xerxesdaphat. Otherwise I might have to detonate all those bombs I made with the recipes I downloaded from the Internet.

I think you will find its terrorists like myself and K14 and Shaun from New Plymouth that make the bombs..........

[NordieBoy]

then you should know that 95-100% of breaking is done with the front on the track

I think you'll find that 95-100% of breaking is done with a high-side on the track.

Braking however...

[90s]

You do not need the rear brake ... until you need it.

So the question is, do you feel lucky punk?

Well, do ya?

[moko]

I was always taught to use the rear brake in tandem with the front when braking. Basically the rear steadies the bike. Stops it from trying to overtake the front if you apply it too hard.

75% front and 25% back is how I've ridden. I wouldn't suggest removing the back at all.

The important word here being "taught" mate,some of the stuff posted here is plain scary,being bloody clueless isn't a crime but on a bike it's dangerous.The way you were taught is the way the Bike Manufacturers design their bikes to be used.In Britain no 2 wheeled vehicle user get on the road without basic training and satisying the tester that they have a good grasp of the basics of bike control,part of that training being braking using both brakes.
Tom worries me,he's had this stuff explained to him in detail in 2 threads now and he's still not listening,I had a mate like him who didn't listen,ironically about the back brake on his Suzi GT250 which he was riding with no rear brake cable.Car turned right in front of him,maybe he could have stopped with both brakes,maybe he couldn't but it would have at least given him a better chance,as it was he couldn't stop and was killed outright.I wouldn't wish that on anyone but for God's sake you young guys,us old hands have often learned the hard way,made all the mistakes,felt the pain and too often lost mates as well so forget being smartarses,bloody listen and you might just save yourself from yourself.A big part of riding safely,quickly and safely even,is experience and kiwibiker seems to be full of guys wet behind the ears arguing with those of us who have seen it,done it and lived it....and usually it's total bollocks that would be funny if wasn't distinctly worrying.

[shcabbeh]

The important word here being "taught" mate,some of the stuff posted here is plain scary,being bloody clueless isn't a crime but on a bike it's dangerous.The way you were taught is the way the Bike Manufacturers design their bikes to be used.In Britain no 2 wheeled vehicle user get on the road without basic training and satisying the tester that they have a good grasp of the basics of bike control,part of that training being braking using both brakes.
Tom worries me,he's had this stuff explained to him in detail in 2 threads now and he's still not listening,I had a mate like him who didn't listen,ironically about the back brake on his Suzi GT250 which he was riding with no rear brake cable.Car turned right in front of him,maybe he could have stopped with both brakes,maybe he couldn't but it would have at least given him a better chance,as it was he couldn't stop and was killed outright.I wouldn't wish that on anyone but for God's sake you young guys,us old hands have often learned the hard way,made all the mistakes,felt the pain and too often lost mates as well so forget being smartarses,bloody listen and you might just save yourself from yourself.A big part of riding safely,quickly and safely even,is experience and kiwibiker seems to be full of guys wet behind the ears arguing with those of us who have seen it,done it and lived it....and usually it's total bollocks that would be funny if wasn't distinctly worrying.

I would not call myself an experienced rider, I've only been riding for a year. In saying that though, I know my basics fairly well. To be honest when I read this title I thought it was a joke, or alluding to something else.

I'd prefer to trust the knowledge of the experienced so that I might live long enough to have my own! Thanks for the response.

[FROSTY]

plain N simple--Fix the brake--

[kneescraper]

Hey there, quick question.

My rear brake caliper was feeling alittle strange when used, kind felt like the pistons werent pushing the pads with all their might. So I cleaned it with CRC 5.56 penertating fluid and bleed the lines with new DOT 4 fluid as directed on the brake system. Since this, the brake pads are binding on the disc and Ive checked for air in the lines etc. The foot pedal has next to no play at all....could my piston seals have been buggered by the CRC?

Sorry for the hijacking of this thread, peace out!

[tri boy]

Hi sraper,
Try to find some freeplay at the pedal first.(this will guarantee master cylinder stroke is seated).
If this doesn't solve the fault, think about getting them serviced by a bike shop.
You need 100% trust in them. Spend a bit to save alot.:yes:

[NordieBoy]

The foot pedal has next to no play at all....could my piston seals have been buggered by the CRC?

Unlikely.
Are you able to move the calipers/pistons by hand?

[kneescraper]

I can push the pistons in with the help of a screw driver to use as a lever. Sorry Tri Boy, I'm not sure what you mean, would you beable to discribe what you mean more indepth?

Cheers.

[The Stranger]

The important word here being "taught" mate,some of the stuff posted here is plain scary,being bloody clueless isn't a crime but on a bike it's dangerous.The way you were taught is the way the Bike Manufacturers design their bikes to be used.In Britain no 2 wheeled vehicle user get on the road without basic training and satisying the tester that they have a good grasp of the basics of bike control,part of that training being braking using both brakes.
Tom worries me,he's had this stuff explained to him in detail in 2 threads now and he's still not listening,I had a mate like him who didn't listen,ironically about the back brake on his Suzi GT250 which he was riding with no rear brake cable.Car turned right in front of him,maybe he could have stopped with both brakes,maybe he couldn't but it would have at least given him a better chance,as it was he couldn't stop and was killed outright.I wouldn't wish that on anyone but for God's sake you young guys,us old hands have often learned the hard way,made all the mistakes,felt the pain and too often lost mates as well so forget being smartarses,bloody listen and you might just save yourself from yourself.A big part of riding safely,quickly and safely even,is experience and kiwibiker seems to be full of guys wet behind the ears arguing with those of us who have seen it,done it and lived it....and usually it's total bollocks that would be funny if wasn't distinctly worrying.

Certainly different bikes will be different. a modern sport bike will I believe get 100% brake force on the front. This will vary to say 70% on a cruiser.

I never use the rear brake when riding on my own (GSXR 1000).

When braking hard out (on the front only) I get chain chatter from the rear of the bike as the rear wheel skips.
At this stage, will I get any use from the rear brake?

After watching 100s of emergency braking sessions there is one issue which is very common. If both brakes are applied at the same time, or the rear first, when the weight transfers to the front the rear unloads and starts skidding. Common wisdom holds that a skidding wheel has less traction than a rolling wheel, we see this with a burn out also. So at this point is the rear brake contributing to the stopping power of the bike?

When the rear does lock, you loose a gyroscope. If you then lock the front you have 0 gyroscopes, it's all over rover. I haven't yet seen front wheel lock up (in one of these sessions) cause a bin. They just release and reapply the brake.

There is a study around which attempted to sort this issue once and for all.
They concluded that rear applied first then front and all the while with the clutch in provided the best stopping.
However, some interesting points to note about the study.
1) they used experienced riders (no definition was given however of experienced)
2) of the 600 tests 400 were rejected as non compliant. If experienced riders can't get it right two thirds of the time, how is a noob going to get on. In an emergency brake situation even an experienced rider can't actually go back and ask for the chance again.
3) the bikes were fitted with outriggers, so binning was impossible. Not exaclty real world.
4) the bikes were fitted with a full size mac computer, protective case and data logging equipment rear of the rear axle. The weight of this was not given, though even 20kg rear of the rear axle would bias the rear brake.

2 schools of thought on the clutch.
A modern IL4 sport bike can over brake the engine, so clutch in means you are not trying to brake the engine as well as the bike and this can contribute to a shorter stopping distance.
With the clutch out the bike is more stable, pull in the clutch when rolling down a hill and see which you feel is the more stable. Also if you are using the rear brake, clutch out helps stop the rear wheel from locking.

In short, my belief is.
A modern sport bike or naked bike, you get somewhere between FA and no braking from the rear when the front is working properly, with a bias toward the latter.
An older bike and/or cruiser, you are going to get at least some braking from the rear and possibly even a very large amount of stopping power will come from the rear.

[beyond]

Certainly different bikes will be different. a modern sport bike will I believe get 100% brake force on the front. This will vary to say 70% on a cruiser.

I never use the rear brake when riding on my own (GSXR 1000).

When braking hard out (on the front only) I get chain chatter from the rear of the bike as the rear wheel skips.
At this stage, will I get any use from the rear brake?

After watching 100s of emergency braking sessions there is one issue which is very common. If both brakes are applied at the same time, or the rear first, when the weight transfers to the front the rear unloads and starts skidding. Common wisdom holds that a skidding wheel has less traction than a rolling wheel, we see this with a burn out also. So at this point is the rear brake contributing to the stopping power of the bike?

When the rear does lock, you loose a gyroscope. If you then lock the front you have 0 gyroscopes, it's all over rover. I haven't yet seen front wheel lock up (in one of these sessions) cause a bin. They just release and reapply the brake.

There is a study around which attempted to sort this issue once and for all.
They concluded that rear applied first then front and all the while with the clutch in provided the best stopping.
However, some interesting points to note about the study.
1) they used experienced riders (no definition was given however of experienced)
2) of the 600 tests 400 were rejected as non compliant. If experienced riders can't get it right two thirds of the time, how is a noob going to get on. In an emergency brake situation even an experienced rider can't actually go back and ask for the chance again.
3) the bikes were fitted with outriggers, so binning was impossible. Not exaclty real world.
4) the bikes were fitted with a full size mac computer, protective case and data logging equipment rear of the rear axle. The weight of this was not given, though even 20kg rear of the rear axle would bias the rear brake.

2 schools of thought on the clutch.
A modern IL4 sport bike can over brake the engine, so clutch in means you are not trying to brake the engine as well as the bike and this can contribute to a shorter stopping distance.
With the clutch out the bike is more stable, pull in the clutch when rolling down a hill and see which you feel is the more stable. Also if you are using the rear brake, clutch out helps stop the rear wheel from locking.

In short, my belief is.
A modern sport bike or naked bike, you get somewhere between FA and no braking from the rear when the front is working properly, with a bias toward the latter.
An older bike and/or cruiser, you are going to get at least some braking from the rear and possibly even a very large amount of stopping power will come from the rear.

Yep, spot on. I agree.
My GSX1400 under heavy braking transfer just about all the braking force to the front.
When I first got it I would use the rear brake. Problem was that to try and synchronize the rear so it wouldn't lock and slide, you were concentrating on getting that recipe exactly right that your braking distances increased. With experience this got better of course but now I never use the rear brak except in three circumstances.
1. Hill starts two up.
2. When on an incline and at the lights or stopped so the front brake pads don't over heat and warp the front disk. This happens easily especially after a hard run and is the main reason for warped disks on modern bikes.
3. Very rarely to drop her in a little more when going into a corner a tad hot.

Other than that, front brake always, right foot perched on the peg on the balls of my feet for more ground clearance and no problems.

I can stop a hell of a lot quicker using just the front brake without worrying about the rear doing it's little dance all over the show. After 40,000kms on the GSX1400's I still use the same recipe. using the rear brake under heavy braking, even lightly, just locks up the rear so it's pretty useless under quicker riding conditions.

[beyond]

Whoops double up :(

[doc]

Okay okay, this sounds like a Renegade Master question, but really, do I?
I mean, I hardly ever use it anyway.
I'd like to go off to the KB gathering in Turangi tomorrow but my rear brake is stuck on slightly due to an old piston seal not retracting properly.
The pads rub against the disc, and it gets too hot to touch. So I'd just detach it and drain the fluid till I can get it fixed next week.
This is a really bad idea, eh?

Thanks to Renegade Master for paving the way for this question.

Don't listen to all the negative advice, you go ahead and do what you like. If you really want to get to "The Gathering" I'm sure that your right as an individual is more important, especially if using a back brake is dangerous as some think. You shouldn't even have to wear a helmet it's a long way and your neck could get sore. I personally would prefer that you get one of those HiVis vests so that I can avoid you.

[tri boy]

I can push the pistons in with the help of a screw driver to use as a lever. Sorry Tri Boy, I'm not sure what you mean, would you beable to discribe what you mean more indepth?

Cheers.
There is an adjustment thread on the mastercylinder rod that allows you to take/give freeplay to the footlever. You need about 2-3mm of freeplay.
If you can slightly depress your foot lever, and the mastercylinder rod doesnt move, then you have free play.
If your not 100% sure how to do this, get a bike mechanic to check it. Its an important adjustment, and wrongly adjusted, it can cause trouble.

[Pancakes]

Im gonna have to test this.

Most would have tested full power braking by now, do test and practice it so you don't die. Also, can I ride your bike before you write it off.

Your right, 100% of the power comes from your front brake/wheel ONCE THE REAR HAS LEFT THE GROUND. This also missaligns the centre of gravity and point of contact (front wheel) even further and means you can't stop as quickly. I'd pay money to see you do a wet weather stoppie with random greasy patches thrown in cos you'd normally find these around too.

I have had to emergency brake numerous times in my lane-splitting career and have locked the back up a bit. Better that than the front a? heheheh. Then you get the most stopping from the back (pulse braking not a big skid) and no front wash-out which is not really an option.

Best to have the rear if you can but you can still ride without one. Obviously fix it asap, who knows whats around the corner?

[Pancakes]

I think you'll find that 95-100% of breaking is done with a high-side on the track.

Braking however...

Rep for you, funny is the cleverest form of humour

[Pancakes]

Also pays to use hand and foot everytime your braking. You don't have to use the rear once your foot's there but it is there a few mm away if you need it v.s foot on the lever and start braking if you need it (front fails etc.....). Just my opinion but I use both all the time, have ridden bicycles for thousands and thousands of k's including 2 and a half years cycle couriering in AK and more recently 3 years commuting from Whenuapai to the CBD daily, way more than motorbikes and you might think that it's not comparable but I disagree. Especially when it comes to mid-corner braking, seems like everyone is picturing a dry, faultless raod and that we can all calculate our braking perfectly. GP riders vary in their ability to do this so how good are you? Sometimes it's too slippery to stoppie/100% brake w/ the front alone and the rear also does help "snug the bike in" mid-corner. I'd say if you haven't tried it have a play with gentle braking when you find yourself in suitable practice situations.

[90s]

Also pays to use hand and foot everytime your braking. You don't have to use the rear once your foot's there but it is there a few mm away if you need it v.s foot on the lever and start braking if you need it (front fails etc.....). Just my opinion but I use both all the time, have ridden bicycles for thousands and thousands of k's including 2 and a half years cycle couriering in AK and more recently 3 years commuting from Whenuapai to the CBD daily, way more than motorbikes and you might think that it's not comparable but I disagree. Especially when it comes to mid-corner braking, seems like everyone is picturing a dry, faultless raod and that we can all calculate our braking perfectly. GP riders vary in their ability to do this so how good are you? Sometimes it's too slippery to stoppie/100% brake w/ the front alone and the rear also does help "snug the bike in" mid-corner. I'd say if you haven't tried it have a play with gentle braking when you find yourself in suitable practice situations.


You used the footbrake on your bikecycle? :innocent:

I have to agree with you about the fact that you can learn a lot about riding on bicycles - esp. as like you I have spent 5 yrs. commuting and couriering through London and 4 years daily from scenic drive into the CBD here.
But I have to disagree on the brakes. On my bicycle in all those years on road never once (well, almost) did I use the rear brake, and in general it would have been bad form to use it on the road. (front brake hope xc4 disc).
Any fear about going over the front is the result of bad riding. 100% of braking from the front wheel once the rear has left the ground, and in emergency braking it should. The rear will lock easily, just like a motorbike as the weight comes up. Contrary to what people seem to be implying on this thread, there is absoltely no problem on a bicycle or motorbike in locking and sliding the front wheel on a straight as long as you look up and forward (yes I have tried it extensively in 'life' and at the RRRS course). But you will go down if you panic, or are steering sharply, esp. if the wheel hits oil on the turn.
Aside from bicyles I have years commuting etc in both London and 1 yr in Auckland on motorbike daily. Lanesplitting daily I would also not use the rear brake usually. But in relation to this thread and your point about being prepred I would not ride without it in perfect working order either.
Now off-road riding and racing xc on both dirtbikes (in my younger days) and mountain bikes I would use the rear brake a lot - but that's another story, and one more related to steering, gravel and mud and hooning.

[imdying]

Phear my foot brakes!

[Reckless]

Re: braking- Funny? but just watched the last moto GP and Rossi was using the rear brake to steady the bike and keep the back in line, leaving the odd faint black line on the track. I wonder if it would be a good idea to copy him. even on the road.

Secondly if you don't know what your doing, don't shag with the brakes. They are pretty simple but leaking cylinder putting brake fluid over the rear wheel etc will fuck your day completly. And if your asking these type of questions not bleeding them properly will still stuff your day. And leaving them binding will stuff your brake disc (up to $300), and cook your seals and pads.

Get a mate or mechanic who can fix them for you. Even a car mechanic can redo bike brakes for very little money. Watch and learn what is done for next time. Good luck with it.

[90s]

Phear my foot brakes!

Wow! Reminds me of my first raliegh grifter (except sram parts which work ... ).

Living out in titirangi I'll stay with my sram PG980 and 27 speeds thanks, plus hope discs. (bit hilly out here and I'm a wuss)

erm, actually I throw in the towel totally and I'll take the 80bhp from my 6-speed ...

[90s]

Re: braking- Funny? but just watched the last moto GP and Rossi was using the rear brake to steady the bike and keep the back in line, leaving the odd faint black line on the track. I wonder if it would be a good idea to copy him. even on the road.

I remember watching nigel mansell spin on a straight in the wet in the mid '80s, before pulling a 360 deg spin over a curb and carrying on. Fantastic driving.

Maybe I should copy that in my cage on the road.

As many people with a lot of track riding experience (I am not one) have said on this site, track riding is not road riding. But steadying the back with the rear is a good skill - but not a necessary one for "everyday speeds". Its important for racing ... so if racing on public roads is what you want then you are correct.

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

I never use my back brake on the track but I might start using it to "back it in" on turn in.

how do you like to ride? controlled? then use front brake only. loose? then use heaps of back brake

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

Re: braking- Funny? but just watched the last moto GP and Rossi was using the rear brake to steady the bike and keep the back in line, leaving the odd faint black line on the track. I wonder if it would be a good idea to copy him. even on the road.

maybe useful advice if you ride a 220+ hp motogp bike and have a problem keeping the front down and wheel spin problems, otherwise terrible advice.

[Ocean1]

I always cover the back brake, think it's a good habit to learn. If I didn't do it every time then when I wanted it for any reason I wouldn't get onto it fast enough. My brain's busy working on other things right then, if my right foot's already there I don't have to think about it, just squeze. My reactions are all dirt learned, and bikes and tyres have changes a lot since I figured out how to ride them. Even so I find the number of times I do tap the rear going into a corner is quite high, even on a good road surface. It's usually more to do with stability or attitude than scrubbing speed but in some situations / surfaces it can add stopping power. What does it cost to cover the back brake? Nothing, and it sometimes comes in bloody handy. Not using it when you don't need to is basically ignoring a potentially usefull skill. Lazy'll get you hurt one day.

[Reckless]

Isn't a std 1000 sports bike puting out 180+ HP off the shop floor and a 1400 200hp not to far off. So the technique must be similar??
But I will admit I have never track raced a bike so I defer to your greater experience. I looked quite closely at the tape and he is definatly shifting his foot to the brake and using it.
So are you and some of the other posts saying on the track you never touch the rear brake even lightly to steady the bike or maybe a bit harder to bring the backround a bit?? If you use the right pressure it shouldn't chatter or skip. When I'm going for a blast even if its 98% front 2% rear I always use a touch of rear. Keeps the tail in behind doesn't it. Maybe I should post this to the race thread as its dragging this one off topic.

[90s]

Isn't a std 1000 sports bike puting out 180+ HP off the shop floor and a 1400 200hp not to far off. So the technique must be similar?? ... So are you and some of the other posts saying on the track you never touch the rear brake even lightly to steady the bike or maybe a bit harder to bring the backround a bit??

The point is one about riding style. You can keep the back in line as you suggest, and on the track it is an important skill.

But it is a racing technique (it is a useful technique like all skills, but this is where it becomes important.) If you have large sports bike you need skills to tame these bikes.

Riding 'normally' on roads however this is not a major aspect to braking.

[Reckless]

Just testing the water! Cause even at 200k+ I still trail the rear brake a fraction. Never liked the thought of the front stepping out without a fraction of rear on. Just that some of the posts here seemed to say they use none at all?? And that didn't make sense. Each to his own I suppose!

[90s]

Just testing the water! Cause even at 200k+ I still trail the rear brake a fraction. Never liked the thought of the front stepping out without a fraction of rear on. Just that some of the posts here seemed to say they use none at all?? And that didn't make sense. Each to his own I suppose!

I would think most of the advice in this thread is not based on 200kph+ riding. I would say this is track speeds, therefore you need to be good at track skills (and remembering that the road is not the track ... )

Back to the main thread, you'd be nuts to ride at "fast" speeds without knowing your bike and both brakes were in top nick and your riding skills were up to it. And you accept the responsibility of massive stack.

(jesus I must be old. I am sounding like such an old frickin' woman these days ...)

[Monsterbishi]

To throw my few cents into the deal, barring instances of keeping my bikes in one place whilst sitting on a incline, I've never used the back brakes on any bike I've owned.

In fishtail moments, all I've done in the past is just let off the throttle slightly, does the same thing with more predictable results than risking a tail end lockup at speed.

[sAsLEX]

Re: braking- Funny? but just watched the last moto GP and Rossi was using the rear brake to steady the bike and keep the back in line, leaving the odd faint black line on the track. I wonder if it would be a good idea to copy him. even on the road.

.

So come in to a left hand corner well off the inside of the bike, rear hovering hardly on the deck left leg well out to try balance the bucking and kicking beast as the rear swaps from left to right a few times.......



Sure sounds like a good idea.

[Pancakes]

But I have to disagree on the brakes. On my bicycle in all those years on road never once (well, almost) did I use the rear brake, and in general it would have been bad form to use it on the road. (front brake hope xc4 disc).
Any fear about going over the front is the result of bad riding. 100% of braking from the front wheel once the rear has left the ground, and in emergency braking it should. The rear will lock easily, just like a motorbike as the weight comes up. Contrary to what people seem to be implying on this thread, there is absoltely no problem on a bicycle or motorbike in locking and sliding the front wheel on a straight as long as you look up and forward (yes I have tried it extensively in 'life' and at the RRRS course). But you will go down if you panic, or are steering sharply, esp. if the wheel hits oil on the turn.


My point was that many times the front will wash out before the back comes up, in an emergency most people are at the mercy of whatever good or bad habits they have drilled while riding everyday. You point about oil on the road? How do you make sure there isn't an oil patch on the road? Plan your emergencies ahead? Normal road riding isn't racing I agree with that but racing and raod emergencies are both maximum effort braking and in both car and bike aren't normally complete stops, more like scubbing as much speed as possible in the shortest distance possible so you can turn sharply to avoid the hazard. I'm not arguing the fact that a very low stopppie will pull you up damn quick, I could stay on the front only for ages on my courier bike, I just wonder where grabbing that much front brake will leave you on a typical NZ road or in a lanesplitting situation, I have locked the front too between cars but once your there the time it takes to go down is faster than most peoples reacion time, assuming the reacion you choose is the right one, comes back to what you practice every time in that situation.

[90s]

My point was that many times the front will wash out before the back comes up, in an emergency most people are at the mercy of whatever good or bad habits they have drilled while riding everyday. You point about oil on the road? How do you make sure there isn't an oil patch on the road? Plan your emergencies ahead?

Agree with you - even about planning emergencies ahead. With what I coming to realise is total nana thinking you can try to ensure that you do not encounter unexpected problems like oil in a way that would cause you problems - such as riding unknown and known difficult corners with the expectation that there WILL be oil or a parked car on the apex; riding corners slow in fast out (so would hit oil etc. upright) etc etc.
Most of the problems with the front washing out etc are caused by rider being committed to something too rashly.
But what if you are caught out anyway, as still happens? I agree that the low stoppie is the most effective braking. Drilling fast stops like this until you have them cold may mean you don't stack rather than you do when you need them.

Covering the brake brake is good as you indicate though. But on light bikes and on super-sports (basically everything I have ever ridden) the rear will come up quick.

What I am interested in is whether big cruisers feel very different under braking, having never ridden on.
In theory a Blade would get emergency braking power front:rear 100:0
and something like a valkyrie 70:30
Planty of people have argued over the figures, but what does it feel like emergency braking on a big cruiser?

[Ocean1]

Covering the brake brake is good as you indicate though. But on light bikes and on super-sports (basically everything I have ever ridden) the rear will come up quick.

What I am interested in is whether big cruisers feel very different under braking, having never ridden on.
In theory a Blade would get emergency braking power front:rear 100:0
and something like a valkyrie 70:30
Planty of people have argued over the figures, but what does it feel like emergency braking on a big cruiser?

Interesting.
Do you only ever brake hard in a straight line?
I don't ride sports bikes, I genuinely don't know.
If you ever have occasion to brake as hard as possible and initiate a turn at the same time (sure you can think of plenty of emengency situations) then full front brake will see you planting your face. The tyre's only got so much grip, if some of that is being used laterally then there's less to use for braking. In that situation your rear wheel has weight on it and if it's got weight then it's got braking potential. In such a situation the fastest way to scrub speed WILL involve both brakes.

[Reckless]

Interesting.
Do you only ever brake hard in a straight line?
I don't ride sports bikes, I genuinely don't know.
If you ever have occasion to brake as hard as possible and initiate a turn at the same time (sure you can think of plenty of emengency situations) then full front brake will see you planting your face. The tyre's only got so much grip, if some of that is being used laterally then there's less to use for braking. In that situation your rear wheel has weight on it and if it's got weight then it's got braking potential. In such a situation the fastest way to scrub speed WILL involve both brakes.

You get 10 outa 10 for that one.

Some of the drift of conversation would lead me to believe that alot of the time under heavy braking (not emergency braking) your rears are off the ground or washing out. Or some guys aren't using the rear brake at all.
I don't quite understand this, as if your fighting to control the rear, on approach, instead of using a fraction less front and letting the rear brake settle or even slide the bike into the approach. Won't you be able to attack the apex and then the exit with more stability and therefore more throttle. I may be doing it wrong but even on the VTR, going really quick, I either cover the rear or use the rear as discribed. Maybe its all my Karting experience where we often used the rear, under brakes, and power, to start the turn often well before the apex.
I'm gonna keep doing it my way as it feels safer to me than all front and no rear. And from what I observe on the moto gp and Paeroa there are not to many rears in the air. But it is interesting to investigate different techneques.

[Kflasher]

Have issues using rear brake due to lack of mobility in ankle.
So I very rarely use it, sold one of my bikes with 40,000 odd k’s with the original rear pads.
Thumb mounted control work brilliant on last bike, so must fit it to current stead.
Rear brake is very useful as stated above, fix it before you need it... my 2 cents

[Ocean1]

I may be doing it wrong but even on the VTR, going really quick, I either cover the rear or use the rear as discribed. Maybe its all my Karting experience where we often used the rear, under brakes, and power, to start the turn often well before the apex.

That sounds very like a dirtbike trick.
Especially on modern dirt bikes you normally use the back brake to control the bike's attitude going into a turn. You're looking to get the back starting to go wide so that at the apex you've got the right "oversteer" to use the power to steer the bike out of the turn. If you tried the same lean-only technique used on the road you'd either lose it or run way wide. If it sounds like I do it perfectly like that every time I assure you nothing could be further from the truth but I do know that's the best/fastest way around a corner in most flavours of dirt...

[90s]

Interesting.
Do you only ever brake hard in a straight line?

Yes is the short answer.
Late apexing style of cornering, general slow-in fast-out.
Ride to avoid braking in a corner, but confortable with the front brake on in a corner as well as the rear to toe-in. (there is a graph somewhere on the relationship to lean/braking power/grip along that supports what you say).
If I can in a corner I lean/cs rather than brake.

I think some of the comments in the thread are confusing whether we are talking about:
1) general riding
2) emergency braking
3) racing

[Reckless]

Don't get me wrong Ocean it is very subtle its not like sliding in at 20 degrees as I think you may be picturing. Its still with your shoulder into the corner and possibly the arse off the inside. Although you do see the moto gp boys sliding in at some awesome degrees under induced countersteer with the rear well stepped out. Shit I wish I could do that!
I ride dirt 2-3 times a month and the techneque is much different. Possibly because at 160k on a sweeper you have gravity/inertia pushing you and the bike into the road which gives you grip and enables you to hang off the inside-center of gravity-yada yada.
On a dirt bike, there is little grip (or your not going fast enough) your always ready with your foot out. One training vid I watched said to sit on the top edge of the seat on a sweeping corner. And it works. We are mostly standing on the trails and even when cornering most of the weight is on the pegs not your arse. you'd stuff your back if you didn't. Thats why its the most strenuious sport there is. (jeepers I need spell check).

[Reckless]

Yes is the short answer.
Late apexing style of cornering, general slow-in fast-out.
Ride to avoid braking in a corner, but confortable with the front brake on in a corner as well as the rear to toe-in. (there is a graph somewhere on the relationship to lean/braking power/grip along that supports what you say).
If I can in a corner I lean/cs rather than brake.

I think some of the comments in the thread are confusing whether we are talking about:
1) general riding
2) emergency braking
3) racing

I agree 90's but like to add a qualifier on a modern 600/1000cc sport bike. General riding/sport riding/racing are becoming quite similar. The bikes themselves dictate this. Go and ride a CBR1000 or ZX10 they are just awesome.

And can't you still be on the brakes at/after the c/s point. Nothing is set in stone you've only got to watch the different racing styles.

[Pancakes]

Interesting.
Do you only ever brake hard in a straight line?
I don't ride sports bikes, I genuinely don't know.
If you ever have occasion to brake as hard as possible and initiate a turn at the same time (sure you can think of plenty of emengency situations) then full front brake will see you planting your face. The tyre's only got so much grip, if some of that is being used laterally then there's less to use for braking. In that situation your rear wheel has weight on it and if it's got weight then it's got braking potential. In such a situation the fastest way to scrub speed WILL involve both brakes.

EXACTLY!! Seems like most posting think they are the badass riders and if you are, I'm sorry. I see tons of bikes out everyday and when splitting etc have to do and get to see others get into situations that I would descibe as emergency braking. I have yet to see someone stoppie in those situations. Some of those people can stoppie great I'm sure but I never see it when it counts. Also, basing your high power braking situations on dry, smooth, no oil/dirt/gravel/paint lines/cat's eyes surface and only when you are able to carry on in your direction of travel (argue all you like, if you say your braking dead straight up and down with the back end still behind you your going to be going the way you were when you started, give or take a couple of degrees at the most) your not really living in the real world. Have you weighed up the skill needed to stay upright on the front wheel, not hitting the curved side of one of those dome cats eyes if your splitting (remembering we are now way off topic with this "do I need a back brake" thread) v.s trailing the rear just a bit enough to do the work for you of keeping the back in line without any input from you and enabling you to start cornering faster when your braking room runs out.

The majority of the time an emergency stop is BRAKE BRAKE BRAKE, nearly at the thing that is in your way, Phew, now going slow enough to turn out of the way. Haven't seen or been in many situations where I/the rider has come to a full stop, If your stopped on a bike on the road your a sitting duck.

I agree Reckless, the rear firms up with a sustained brush of the rear, I recon there is more braking available in a corner than our scaredey brains tell us. Just like instead of running wide, staying calm, smooth and going lower than you have before could well see you smiling out the end of a corner you hit too hot. Now, just have to find the balls to practice. In that on the limits pracice is where you really do need to beware of the skid demon!!

[90s]

EXACTLY!! Seems like most posting think they are the badass riders ... if you say your braking dead straight ... your not really living in the real world.

Final comment on this. I'm certainly not a badass rider, but a very conservative one. I have no track experience (except on karts). But all my riding is 'real world'. I commute 200ks per week through heavy traffic, and I've commuted similar distances on different machines (inc. cycles) for the last 20 years, always in big cities.

There's a lot of good advice in this thread for different riding styles. I would like to work on my high-speed riding more and will take more tips out from this thread. I'm sure if I get onto one of those 1000s mentioned I would really have to learn a lot more.

Good luck practicing more braking options. It all helps. The one thing we all agree on is that there is no advantage in not having a rear brake working even if you may never use it.

[moko]

I agree Reckless, the rear firms up with a sustained brush of the rear, I recon there is more braking available in a corner than our scaredey brains tell us. Just like instead of running wide, staying calm, smooth and going lower than you have before could well see you smiling out the end of a corner you hit too hot. Now, just have to find the balls to practice. In that on the limits pracice is where you really do need to beware of the skid demon!!

It was always common knowledge that if you braked in a corner you'd fall off,end of.That was years ago and bikes,and more relevently tyres and brakes,are massively better these days,brakes were often on or off,just like anyone who tried using them while cornering.I`ve ridden my bike for 4 years and 50,000 kms and it holds no suprises for me in any department,got no qualms at all braking in corners.
As pancakes says the one time I had to hit the brakes a lot harder than I was happy with was when some clod cut me up as I was leaned right over going around a tight roundabout,bike barely twitched then nor when I gave it a handful to go around him rather than into him and it was as much instinct and experience as much as skill. Two big things,as I said I know my bike very well,on a borrowed bike or one I'd not done so many miles on I may well have stuffed up,or,and this brings in the second point,panicked not knowing if I'd get away with it,do that and your stuffed as well,which as it's human nature requires 100% confidence in yourself and your machine.
Only time I ever did a stoppie was on the same bike(old model 600 Fazer has R1 brakes fitted as standard) and was in an emergency situation,guy in a van came hammering past me,don't know what he was thinking about but he hadn't seen the concrete bollard in the middle of the road,he was going so fast he either cut across me or ploughed into it,I was overtaking a guy in the next lane(like I said god knows what van man was thinking) and came close to getting sandwiched,BOTH brakes full on as in shit or bust and the back came up.Most amazing thing about that is the van driver pulled in just up the road,waved me down and apologised profusely,seemed genuine but of course might well have thought I was one of the local desperadoes,whatever more usual reaction is disappear quickly from the scene.
Getting to know your bike properly is a biggie.
Oh yeah,point of the thread,both incidents could well have had me plastered across the road if I hadn't used my rear brake as well,obviously in the stoppie scenario it wasn't actually doing anything when the back wheel was off the ground but every inch of scrubbed speed was crucial.

[Steam]

This thread started out tounge-in-cheek, but it is quite interesting now, with lots of food for thought about braking.
Thanks KB'ers!!

[Drew]

I agree Reckless, the rear firms up with a sustained brush of the rear, I recon there is more braking available in a corner than our scaredey brains tell us. Just like instead of running wide, staying calm, smooth and going lower than you have before could well see you smiling out the end of a corner you hit too hot. Now, just have to find the balls to practice. In that on the limits pracice is where you really do need to beware of the skid demon!!
You're spot on with this last point, bling to be sent! The biggest part of riding out of a corner you've gotten wrong, is to simply not panic and ride round it. When I got my little mind to accept this, I dropped two seconds a lap at manfield, and pulled a win out my bum at the hill climb.

Commitment people, tip over, and have faith.

[Reckless]

You're spot on with this last point, bling to be sent! The biggest part of riding out of a corner you've gotten wrong, is to simply not panic and ride round it. When I got my little mind to accept this, I dropped two seconds a lap at manfield, and pulled a win out my bum at the hill climb.

Commitment people, tip over, and have faith.

Good to hear from a racer and for a few more posts in support of my riding style. I was really starting to think I was riding like a gumboot using a bit of rear brake but looks like its ok.
Drew is quite correct on a modern sport bike, with the tyre & bike design you can just about stick the peg into the tarmac (in the right conditions) before you go past the tread and handling capabilities. Its about confidence and skill though not just courage. This applies mainly to post 2000 sport bikes of coarse I wouldn't try it on my 78' Z1R.
Tell you another thing I do when goin really quick is when I've gone in a bit hot and the bike feels a bit loose I leave a very slight touch of rear on right through the corner until just after I start to power on through the apex. I find it settles the bike till the power delivery takes over and does the same. But I'm not arse off the seat, knee down or anything, probably couldn't do it on the track. Now I might be goin to far, I would be interested to hear Drews or another good racers comment on this.

Back on thread then. To sum up you need that rear brake at all times, in all situations by the look of it.

[GaZBur]

Quite right! If you only use the front brake you are restricting yourself to mostly braking while going straight. The rear gives you control and balance especially in corners. If you find yourself going a bit wide on a corner follow Reckless's advice, power on and rear brake at the same time and feel the rear get extra bite in the corner. Good tongue in cheek thread - but there is a reason they put big rear brakes on GP bikes!

[Drew]

Quite right! If you only use the front brake you are restricting yourself to mostly braking while going straight. The rear gives you control and balance especially in corners. If you find yourself going a bit wide on a corner follow Reckless's advice, power on and rear brake at the same time and feel the rear get extra bite in the corner. Good tongue in cheek thread - but there is a reason they put big rear brakes on GP bikes!

Not quite true, I use my front brake right into a corner, come up to it with as much brake as I can muster, and EASE it off as I tip the bike over, so I am effectively keeping the front loaded, and tyre at the same point of adhesion all the way to my apex, I only release it completely when it's time to get back on the gas, or a long constant radius corner, that requires time spent at a nuetral throttle.

Using the front brake while cornering, does not equal crashing at all, not having a decent control of the front brake does.

[Reckless]

I do as well Drew. I just didn't mention that the front is always the primary using it as you discribe. Sometimes just keep a bit of rear after easing off the front but only to steady the bike. Sometimes I dunno what the fuck I'm doing as well. But he thread debate was about weather some use the back at all. So was discribing the way I was applying the rear which I use 99% of the time. Again good to have input from a guy that races, Not just a stupid hooon like me.

[Drew]

Not just a stupid hooon like me.

I'm just a stupid hoon too, and untill next month, my track racing career is pretty minimal, only got the hill climb to my name at this point.










(You aint seen squat yet F3!!!)

[Kickaha]

Not quite true, I use my front brake right into a corner, come up to it with as much brake as I can muster, and EASE it off as I tip the bike over, so I am effectively keeping the front loaded, and tyre at the same point of adhesion all the way to my apex, I only release it completely when it's time to get back on the gas, or a long constant radius corner, that requires time spent at a nuetral throttle.

Using the front brake while cornering, does not equal crashing at all, not having a decent control of the front brake does.

Thats the same way that I do, I've been told forever that it's going to cause me to crash, but so far it's been 5 years using that technique and I haven't even had a near miss, I usually trail the rear brake through the first part of the corner as well

[Drew]

Thats the same way that I do, I've been told forever that it's going to cause me to crash, but so far it's been 5 years using that technique and I haven't even had a near miss, I usually trail the rear brake through the first part of the corner as well


Watched motoGP last night, and they do it in the wet. We must be doin something right if the best in the world do it too:yes: