Riding style

[Patryn999]

Hi, I've been riding for about 3 years or so now on the ol' 250's (Yeah I know its a long time to still be learners but whenever the uni holidays roll around i'm way to broke to pay)

Just started experimenting with different riding styles, all my time I've sat on my little baby (TZR250 1kt) with the tank right between the ol' legs and using my knees to throw it around the corner, like riding a horse. only not quite as gay.

Anyway I started experimenting and i've noticed that if i move my butt back so my weights further backwards (and at same time more hunched over so maybe its over front wheel more?) and throwing my weight around, with more counter steering, I seem to be able to get lower more confidently. i.e i can get foot peg scraping without really feeling like it.

Just wondering if anyone else has experimented and come up with the same results. or different results too :D

Cheers
Carl

Just remembered. Riding a ZXR 750 I would've been in the same position, mainly cause i'm only about 5'8" and if you've sat on one you are already stretching out to grasp the handle's. Curious.

[xwhatsit]

Hey, I can confirm that. While having my bike, I've taken off the high-ish MX-style bars and replaced them with much lower clipons. I've also experimented with the clipons in different positions, and there is a marked difference with how much you are leaning forward. Like you, I find that if I slide my arse right back, and hunch over more (like a racing crouch), all of a sudden I'm going 10kph faster through corners without feeling it. Definite confidence boost -- being cranked over still doesn't feel the most natural place in the world just yet.

Once I save up enough biscuits, I'm going to put a single seat on (and maybe even a long tank), so I'll be sitting further back normally. There seems a big difference.

[Patryn999]

hmmm. Now thats just bugging me, could you explain your sig? I know what a palindrome is, "Anal sex at noon taxes Lana". Is there a hidden joke somewhere or have I just been staring at it for the last 5 mins blankly for no reason at all? :D

[R6_kid]

If you have your weight more biased to the rear suspension it will compress more than if your weight was further forward therefore your bike is sitting somewhat lower in the rear.

It may also enable you to hang your knee out more, and also because you've moved your ass back you are now leaning forward more, you feel lower than if you were sitting up.

[xwhatsit]

hmmm. Now thats just bugging me, could you explain your sig? I know what a palindrome is, "Anal sex at noon taxes Lana". Is there a hidden joke somewhere or have I just been staring at it for the last 5 mins blankly for no reason at all? :D

That's the point :first:


It may also enable you to hang your knee out more, and also because you've moved your ass back you are now leaning forward more, you feel lower than if you were sitting up.

See I don't know -- because you don't feel any faster, in fact you feel even more relaxed -- until you look at the speedo and see you've got a good deal more speed through that corner than you usually do, and things like peg scraping happens so much easier.

[Tim 39]

Since I started racing, I have now adopted a skightly different road riding style, I end up (without even noticing Im doing it) hanging my arse of the seat. Ive tried riding like every other road rider but I feel weird doing it. If you realy get adventurous you could try that (will also stop your peg scraping as much)

[avgas]

I change my riding style all the time.
Its better now with the high bars as i quite like kicking the back out in corners rather than leaning them all out.
Mabey its the the drifter in me.

[Chrislost]

Since I started racing, I have now adopted a skightly different road riding style, I end up (without even noticing Im doing it) hanging my arse of the seat. Ive tried riding like every other road rider but I feel weird doing it. If you realy get adventurous you could try that (will also stop your peg scraping as much)

i usually hang my ass half off the seat and counter steer the rest.
havnt had a peg or knee on the ground though.

[90s]

hmmm. Now thats just bugging me, could you explain your sig? I know what a palindrome is, "Anal sex at noon taxes Lana". Is there a hidden joke somewhere or have I just been staring at it for the last 5 mins blankly for no reason at all? :D

I took it as a statement of fact, like PILs "this is not a love song" or:

This is not a spoonerism.

Back to the topic, I change riding styles too depending on how tired, bored, focussed etc. that I am.
Hanging off the bike (loads of threads on this, knee-down etc etc) is different - bike can stay more upright = less scraping, "flash look", potentially safer cornering in the wet (upright again), but more skittish behviour as it repsonds more to your inputs if you panic, needs experience to understand changed dynamics etc.
Shifting your weight back on a bike has all sorts of consequences,as R6_kid said. Also try things such as riding with locked arms vs. leaning a little forward and keeping the arms very bent at the elbows. Sitting up vs. crouching.
One thing I took away from the RRRS course was to practice something different at least once a day every day. Some days I try corners with weight off the bike; sometimes upright. Sometimes I try clamping the tank with my knees; sometimes putting a knee out. There are many ways to ride your bike and it will feel different, handle differently and you will feel different (more tired, less fatiqued) and ride differently (faster, safer, with less control ... )

Give it all a try.

[craigs288]

When I was younger and less experienced I never really gave much thought to applying any type of riding technique other than point it where I wanted to go and give it a squirt and deal with whatever happens without consciously deciding whether I was going to corner by shifting my weight, feet on pegs or countersteering or combination of everything.
Most of the bikes I rode were 2 and 4 stroke 250's and the combination of light weight and limited power meant I could do anything, sometimes quite poorly and still end up where I wanted to go.
My first experience on a bigger bike (my brother's GS1000) made it very clear I had to apply myself much more carefully. Given the weight and size of the bike and the fact that in 1988 I was 16, a mere 5 foot 4 inches, 64kg, I soon discovered if I didn't get things quite right the bike would end up doing its own thing with me perched on it's back trying to discover some magical technique to regain some sort of control. Through sheer luck, and quite a bit more luck on top of that, I am alive today to reminisce(?) on the scary moments.
The only effective way I could throw something that size around was by countersteering and that is the only way I have ever tried to ride since. After 19 years of countersteering everything I have swung a leg over (including a few girlfriends) I have no intention of trying anything else until this method no longer works for me.
If there are people reading this who have never tried to countersteer I would recommend you go for a casual ride one day at a sedate pace through some winding hills and give it a try. It only takes a few minutes to get a feel for what is going on and you will be amazed at the results.

But as 90s has stated, there are many different ways which all work, by themselves and in combinations depending on the situation. Until you try them all you can't make a definite decision as to which you prefer.

[Phils Motorcycles]

By pushing your butt back on the seat your arms will drop down lower than if you sit forward. This makes you take your weight through your legs rather than through your arms (sit forward and you have more weight on your arms) and has the effect of making counter steering easier, making you use your pegs more and your body weight doesn't dampen out what the bars want to do. You're also lowering the centre of gravity slightly.

[Patryn999]

(Sorry 'bout the delay guys us eng bum.... students are busy at the mo)

Anyway so Phil the lower centre of gravity is an advantage but the weight over the pegs and not damping the steering leaves you more susceptible to tank-slappers etc?

Heh. might start posting on here more often... been looking for a new forum to whore... i mean post in.

[Reckless]

If there are people reading this who have never tried to countersteer I would recommend you go for a casual ride one day at a sedate pace through some winding hills and give it a try. It only takes a few minutes to get a feel for what is going on and you will be amazed at the results.
Maybe you should explain for the newbies here exactly what you do/mean by countersteering.

Also another thing to try is to lean in a little more with your shoulder (without your arse off the seat). I think this looks a bit silly if your not on the track. I'll explain: Try a normal line/lean then move your shoulder over into the corner a couple of inches and lean into it a bit. Works great for sweepers.

[swbarnett]

Maybe you should explain for the newbies here exactly what you do/mean by countersteering.

Check out this thread http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=39752

[craigs288]

While I realise there are threads on this website and others that explain countersteering and how to apply it, I chose not to give my description of what I think it is. Mostly to keep the thread shorter.
After reading the previous link and a few others as to a description of countersteering and then after having a think about how I use it I am willing to offer the following.

Basically, countersteering is applying force to the bars in a direction opposite to the direction you would like the bike to lean. Gently push the bars to turn the wheel to the right and the bike will "fall" to the left, and vice versa.
However, countersteering is only useful with regard to changing the lean angle. Once you are at an appropriate lean angle for a given speed in any given corner, you need to maintain the lean angle, not increase it with continued countersteering. ( end result = lying on the road )
In practice I find that while I may apply countersteering to tip the bike in, as I approach what I believe is the correct lean angle for any given corner, I find that I am reducing the amount of countersteering (push) on the bars until I am applying very little (or none) to maintain the lean angle through the corner.
At this point I like to think I am doing a good job of allowing the lean angle to dictate where the front wheel is pointing, and I am just using my arms as steering dampers to prevent the changing road surface from moving the front wheel around. If I need to change direction for whatever reason mid-corner, I very gently apply countersteering, generally with whichever arm is to the inside of the corner.
I tend to do it this way because anytime that I move my body to the side of the bike I find my 'outside' arm is against the tank which helps me to use it as the 'steering damper' to counter any front wheel movement from the road, and as resistance to any changes I try to make with my 'inside' arm.
This probably helps to explain why I feel I have better steering and throttle control in left hand corners.
In a left hand corner my right forearm is braced against the right hand side of the tank and is less prone to changes in the throttle postion due to hitting bumps in the road.
Whereas in a right hand corner, my left forearm is braced against the tank (damper) and my right arm is flapping around in the breeze while trying to apply gentle countersteering as necessary, while also trying to control the throttle position. I find it more difficult to maintain control of these things when I hit bumps in a corner when my right forearm is not braced against something. (the tank)
Hope that is helpful, without too much rambling.

[Reckless]

I'd like to pretty much agree with that Graig:rockon:

[Phils Motorcycles]

Anyway so Phil the lower centre of gravity is an advantage but the weight over the pegs and not damping the steering leaves you more susceptible to tank-slappers etc?


It's Shane @ Phils Motorcycles.
Lower centre of gravity is a good thing, as is weighting the pegs.
Ideally you'd use your legs and body to steer your bike, with the handle bars only being used to fine tune the bikes line.
Weight on the handlebars is bad. Not only does it damp out the bad things like tank slappers, it also damps out the good things like the bikes natural tendency to counter steer itself when you use your legs/body to steer the bike. Tank slappers are rare, steering the bike happens every corner!!

[Phils Motorcycles]

craigs288, try resting your index finger on top of the brake lever (not around it, on top of it). You can use that to steady your throttle.

[FROSTY]

Reading this all with interest-always interested to see others opinons.
One comment I'll make is don't change your riding style because someones style "looks cool" so must be fast
Ive seen this way too often with newer riders. They see moto GP stars hanging off the bike like a monkey so assume that that is the key to going fast.
Not the case.

[Patryn999]

Too right. I've ruined a perfectally good pair of jeans doing that :P

Thanks for the advice Shane i've never considered that aspect. Heh and I think you might find tankslappers on a 250 stroker are almost impossible. Even when my mate came down with the wheel almost at full lock it still sorted itself out :D needless to say I was almost crying.... my baby.

[Reckless]

There's also quite a good discussion on braking towards the end of this thread http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=51067&page=8 you guys might be interested in?