The Coro loop ride yesterday 3rd June

[smoky]

Terminal was two up – over taking everyone, and teaching us all how to ride.
I have to admit I couldn’t ride that well 2 up, I can't keep up when he’s 1 up.
He gets my respect.

But some riders thought he was insane, so I thought I’d wind him up a bit with a quick vote. Is he insane, or gets your respect.

[Colapop]

Wasn't there. Don't know him. Therefore can't vote...

I suppose, if he was being a dick...

[Toaster]

Need we recall the Peak Rd 2-up double-fatal of a couple years back? Hard riding is all great fun until it all goes horribly wrong.

[dangerous]

Ive seen guys riding with their missus on the back like complete fuck wits... they need a hiding for such behaviour... how ever if it was a mate that knew of the dangers, then so be it... either way doesn't surprise me on the loop, why not kill two on one bike instead of wasting 2 bikes.

Won't vote however as I dont know the bloody clown, his pillion and riding.

ps: for all I know having ridden with some Aucklanders the main bunch may have been riding at there slooooow speed and Term cruising at a average south Is pace ;)

[TKDSKIP]

I followed terminal through parts of the loop on a Spada 250 and sat on his tail even though I've only been riding for a month. On the straights I got smoked (no kidding) but giving it a squirt (even with your wife on the back) isn't insane, its why we ride. Through the the twistes he was smooth and so controlled (did not here his passanger complain once). Very good rider and I learnt heaps just by following his lines. Cheers for a sweet ride.

[ZeroIndex]

Wasn't there. Don't know him. Therefore can't vote...

I suppose, if he was being a dick...

He's an up-and-coming version of Warr if that helps?

[Waylander]

TA knows what he's doing guys and more than likely wasn't riding as hard as he could.

[smoky]

I only said - Terminal was two up – over taking everyone, and teaching us all how to ride, I never talked about "Hard riding" or about "riding with their missus on the back like complete fuck wits"

I knew this thread would bring out all the knockers, bashers and hypocrites

[dangerous]

I only said - Terminal was two up – over taking everyone, and teaching us all how to ride, I never talked about "Hard riding" or about "riding with their missus on the back like complete fuck wits"

I knew this thread would bring out all the knockers, bashers and hypocrites

and I am generalising you guys get up set so easy... see my last couple of lines in the post I think you are refering to :mellow:

[Toaster]

and I am generalising you guys get up set so easy... see my last couple of lines in the post I think you are refering to :mellow:

Same here. Just a general comment too.

[Toaster]

Just don't complain when someone does get hurt and we hear 'what a tragedy'.

[Warr]

Yes just what we need another wind-up thread.

Wasnt there sadly. But since we are all about safe road riding, a thread about what your own response could be to someone using blocking techniques on the open road may be more enlightning :)
And in this case I'm NOT refering to TA

[Maha]

I have to admit I couldn’t ride that well 2 up, I can't keep up when he’s 1 up.
He gets my respect.



I get that all the time, but i would not start a poll about it to expose the exceptional riders to criticism/praise for how they ride...TDHSKIP says it best in his post, and is what i would get/take from riding with the likes of TA

[Devil]

I knew this thread would bring out all the knockers, bashers and hypocrites

Then why did you post it, clot.

People complain about the crap that goes on here, it's because of threads like this.

[avgas]

Women like it slow aparently, i only go fast when im on me own ;)

[ZeroIndex]

Women like it slow aparently, i only go fast when im on me own ;)

:killingme

"You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later."

[TerminalAddict]

But since we are all about safe road riding, a thread about what your own response could be to someone using blocking techniques on the open road may be more enlightning :)


the one *DODGY* (although .. still in control) move I made all day was to get past some one who was using blocking techniques

and not only on me.

That was the only time I got punched from the pillion too ;)

If I post my real thoughts about blocking techniques I'll get red repped .. I'll just say .. if someone is faster than you, let them by, don't let your ego get the better of you.
Interestingly enough, the one dodgy move I did was entriely the fault of my ego.

[ZeroIndex]

the one *DODGY* (although .. still in control) move I made all day was to get past some one who was using blocking techniques

and not only on me.

That was the only time I got punched from the pillion too ;)

If I post my real thoughts about blocking techniques I'll get red repped .. I'll just say .. if someone is faster than you, let them by, don't let your ego get the better of you.
Interestingly enough, the one dodgy move I did was entriely the fault of my ego.

What a n00b... you're not even supposed to block in professional sports like MotoGP... you're allowed one line change on a straight, but no blocking.

[R6_kid]

This has already been discussed at length by many people in many different places.

There are a few things you need to take into consideration.

Andrew Stroud taking a pillion around a track faster than you can ride, it's not insane, the person knows what they are in for, and Andrew is a highly skilled rider.

Taking a pillion on the track, and riding faster than most of the people on the track isnt hard, shit, on some rides i've done on the road it wasn't hard.

How fast are the people going that he is passing? I think you will find that you haven't ridden with a rider that is actually 'fast' in the scale of all things considered.

At the end of the day, if you are taking a pillion at high speed you are taking someone elses life into your hands... there is a limit to your skill, after that you are riding recklessly, and if you are doing it to impress then you are being a dork. I have seen pics of a guy, riding knee down, with his pillion (wife) touching her hand on the ground... they have been riding together for ages, riding the same road every weekend, and know it really well. She knew the dangers and got on the back, and was obviously comfortable with the speed he was doing. That's insane, and he gets my respect.

To be honest i don't care... and as people have said 'i wasnt there' so can't really say if he was insane or not. No offence, but im guessing the ride wasnt that fast, and he took off at a pace he could ride at comfortably...

[PaddyFZ1]

To be honest i don't care... and as people have said 'i wasnt there' so can't really say if he was insane or not. No offence, but im guessing the ride wasnt that fast, and he took off at a pace he could ride at comfortably...

Totally agree with you there.

Ive ridden with TA on nunerous occasions, and know that he wouldnt do anything that was beyond his own abilites.

Ive done plenty of kms two up, about 15k on the FZ1, and only one complaint from the pillion.

This may have been above your skill level, but must have been inside TAs

[Gremlin]

Anyone faster than you is an insane idiot, anyone slower is a slow nana... funny how this always seems to be true? :no:


the one *DODGY* (although .. still in control) move I made all day was to get past some one who was using blocking techniques
This should be the topic of the poll... I hope that person got a slap upside the head... That is about the single most dangerous and stupid thing to be doing...

[The Pastor]

The way I judge insane riding on the road is like this "can you/they change lines/aviod somthing in ur way" if the answer is no, then you should take a hard look at why you are riding so dangerously (note doesnt alway mean fast).

Does it make me a nana? Yes. Im not ashamed of that fact. I enjoy the ride, not the ambulance/herse ride.

although if I can see around the corner then its knee down baby!

[ducatijim]

Who bloody cares anyway? Rideing is all about ME (or you), not wot the others think.

[smoky]

Then why did you post it, clot.
People complain about the crap that goes on here, it's because of threads like this.

To be honest I started it as a piss take, a wind for TA – We went on a good ride, with bikes and riders of different abilities, no one was out to break any speed records, one of the slower rides I've been on lately. But one young guy was out to try and impress us all.
He didn’t like it when someone tried to over take him and he blocked me a couple of times, so fine I pulled back.
I think TA upset him by slipping past on a corner (2up). Apparently he got a bit put out, threw a few insults and foul words around and then buggered off home. A real troglodyte.
I know he’s on KB, so the post was also to rub it in a bit.

I know some people find this kinda post annoying, but honestly it was just a piss take – don’t read it if it upsets ya.
Chuck it in the sin bin if ya want – I’ve had my laugh.
:rofl:

[MidnightMike]

Can you guys post up a map with the coro loop maked out, thanks.

[ZeroIndex]

To be honest I started it as a piss take, a wind for TA – We went on a good ride, with bikes and riders of different abilities, no one was out to break any speed records, one of the slower rides I've been on lately. But one young guy was out to try and impress us all.
He didn’t like it when someone tried to over take him and he blocked me a couple of times, so fine I pulled back.
I think TA upset him by slipping past on a corner (2up). Apparently he got a bit put out, threw a few insults and foul words around and then buggered off home. A real troglodyte.
I know he’s on KB, so the post was also to rub it in a bit.

I know some people find this kinda post annoying, but honestly it was just a piss take – don’t read it if it upsets ya.
Chuck it in the sin bin if ya want – I’ve had my laugh.
:rofl:
Name the person in the wrong... if he's gonna act like that, people need to know who to be cautious around...

[ZeroIndex]

Smoky: I was interested in your word 'troglodyte', which I searched up the meaning, and hope to use it in my vocabulary at some stage. Thank you for this beautiful and meaningful word :)

Troglodyte: a caveman, or a person characterized by reclusive habits or outmoded or reactionary attitudes

[TerminalAddict]

Can you guys post up a map with the coro loop maked out, thanks.

originally provided by kornholio
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=44390&d=1161470573

[MidnightMike]

originally provided by kornholio
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=44390&d=1161470573

Sweet, thanks. Looks like i nearly got it right

Note to self: coroglen road is not for sportbikes.

[smoky]

Can you guys post up a map with the coro loop maked out, thanks.

Basically we find it convenient to start at the Kopu service station, head up thru Thames and along the coast on state 25, it’s bit slow – being a narrow road full of traffic. Head all the way up to Coromandel township. Just before the town you turn right up to the summit and down to the other side of the peninsular. Head south to Whitianga, then over to Tairua. Basically following 25.
Ater that you head south, if you don’t turn off it becomes state high way 25a and you end up back at Kopu – and that’s the Coro loop.
However if you turn off and follow 25, you head down to Whangamata and thru to Waihi then thru the Karangahake Gorge to Pearoa – that’s the extended Coro loop.
However if you turn south at Waihi you can head on down to Katikati then Tauranga, over the Kaimai’s to Matamata – that’s the extra extended Coro loop
However if you head to Pyes Pa from Tauranga to Rotorua then back over the Mamaku’s – that’s the full extra extended Coro loop we did yesterday.

[MidnightMike]

Sweet, thanks for that, i had my first attempt at the coromandel today, got about 370 km's done, was awesome.

Just one more Q, is the road between Te Rerenga and the Coromandel towship sealed or not?, because my map shows that its not.

[TerminalAddict]

yes it is....

[Highlander]

Sweet, thanks for that, i had my first attempt at the coromandel today, got about 370 km's done, was awesome.

Just one more Q, is the road between Te Rerenga and the Coromandel towship sealed or not?, because my map shows that its not.

Yup.
There is a road that heads inland from about Tapu to Coroglen that I believe is gravel, otherwise the loop mentioned here is sealed.

[Switch]

He gets my respect. Hes my uncle so course he gets in automatically, but hell he can ride. Not only that, but he takes people out for lessons on riding better. Before any of you get all upset about dangerous riding, Ha-Ha-Harden the fuck up and go for a ride with him.
If you practice something for long enough, you get better and better at it, thats what he has done here...OCD (Obsessive compulsive disorder)
I dont have much else to say...Was a nice ride, had a good time, apart from going sideways into on coming traffic once. Clocked up just over 550k's on a 250, which wasnt hard at all...Bnonn Ha-Ha-Harden the fuck up :nya: i was going half the speed you were :nya:

All in all it was an awesome ride, cheers for coming out everyone, was nice to go on a long ride and have a good chat. See you next weekend when we go to Napier :nya:

[TerminalAddict]

oh yeah .. on the subject of bnonn .. I've got some tips that might make life with a parter on the back a whole lot easier .. but generally you rode very well ... she needs to learn to trust you and the bike a bit more.

James was riding really well down from the summit, but seem to have lost the plot when I was behind him towards whangamata .. maybe fatigue?

[smoky]

what's goin on here - i thought you'd all be voting the other way?

He'll have to go and buy yet another helmet to fit his increasing head size now.

Bastards
:shutup: :scratch:

[Whynot]

I knew this thread would bring out all the knockers

I don't know whats going on here, i have searched through the entire thread and found no sign of the "knockers" i was promised ..... :(

[kevfromcoro]

Yup.
There is a road that heads inland from about Tapu to Coroglen that I believe is gravel, otherwise the loop mentioned here is sealed.

jesus..dont go on that road unless u are riding an eventure bike..its one of the worst roads in NZ.....all gravel ,and tight corners....hasnt changed in 100 yrs.

[ZeroIndex]

jesus..dont go on that road unless u are riding an eventure bike..its one of the worst roads in NZ.....all gravel ,and tight corners....hasnt changed in 100 yrs.

how "gravel" is it? Is it thick stuff or the fine looseish dusty stuff?

[TerminalAddict]

what's goin on here - i thought you'd all be voting the other way?

He'll have to go and buy yet another helmet to fit his increasing head size now.

Bastards
:shutup: :scratch:

Vote TerminalAddict :killingme

[Phils Motorcycles]

I've ridden with TA a few times when he's had a pillion and I can't remember seeing him ride stupidly or dangerously. He gets along bloody quick considering the extra weight a pillion adds, but not scary fast. I'm happy to ride with him any time and also think he's a good person to help teach newbies.

Mental Trousers @ work

[slinky]

Perhaps the ppl who said he was being stupid don't realise how hard a bike can be pushed??

[Bnonn]

Clocked up just over 550k's on a 250, which wasnt hard at all...Bnonn Ha-Ha-Harden the fuck up
Hah, you had a comfy cruiser and no pillion, and were going half the speed I was. When you're carrying a pillion and going fast, you get tired a lot quicker. And, although the FZ6 has good ergos compared to sportbikes, I don't imagine it will compare to a cruiser on the long hauls.

But okay, I'll try to ha-ha-harden the fuck up. Cheeky whippersnapper :D


oh yeah .. on the subject of bnonn .. I've got some tips that might make life with a parter on the back a whole lot easier .. but generally you rode very well ... she needs to learn to trust you and the bike a bit more.
Thanks; I was feeling a lot more comfortable than I have in the past. I just tried to relax and trust the bike, and it worked well. I think I'm also smoother with a pillion on board. I'm keen to hear your tips, though—feel free to post them here, since other people who carry passengers will probably find them helpful too.

Oh, also I voted for both options. Insane from my point of view, but not squidly, so gets my respect (;

PS. Who was the squid you passed in the corner? Was that the R6 guy who said he'd accompany us back to Hamilton and was popping wheelies in front of Jamie?

[TerminalAddict]

1. I'd suggest getting a pack rack, that way the pillion feels like they are sitting in the bike, rather than perched on the back ... it gives a little bit of reassurance to the rider as well.

2. try getting pillion to sit with her hands resting on her legs, rather than holding on (this will be much easier with a pack rack fitted)

3. Its all down to your riding ... easy on the throttle, even easier on the brakes .. steady and smooth. soon enough the pillion will be relaxed enough to fall asleep if they want .. .you'll be surprised how fast you can get when they are relaxed

[Bnonn]

Thanks Paul.

1. I've considered a pack rack, but unfortunately getting one attached to the FZ6 is the mission of all missions. Its subframe doesn't lend itself well to the project, apparently. It has been done, and there are HOWTOs available, but I don't relish the prospect. But I agree that it would definitely make things more comfortable, and it would be very handy for us too since we don't have a car and sometimes have to carry a bit of luggage. I'll look into it further when I have some spare cash to throw at the idea.

2. I'll suggest this to her. I haven't ridden pillion myself so I'm not sure how easy this would be. The idea of sitting on a bike without holding onto something, but just resting on the footpegs, is pretty scary to my mind. At a heavy incline there doesn't seem to be much to keep you stable, but I guess centrifugal force would probably do the job.

3. I'm still working at this. Smokering has said I am much smoother than when I first started riding with her, and I have found that carrying a pillion often is actually a very valuable exercise as far as brake and throttle control goes, since the smoothness carries over to 1-up riding as well. But although I'm usually pretty smooth now, I agree that I still have some way to go. In particular, I tend to be real smooth applying the brakes, but then let off them rather suddenly. My mind hasn't learned that braking is a two-way process. I think probably on the Coro ride Smokering was a little less relaxed than usual because we have never done that many twisties, nor at such a sustained high pace. She got a little alarmed at some points (as did I!), especially when we first started to drag the feelers, coz she didn't know what it was and whether it was bad. She is not very mechanically inclined, and so sometimes she gets a bit tense when she doesn't know what's going on. I think training will really help with that, although she's already much better than she used to be. Usually I forget she's even there. But I'd like to get her a 250 to play around on—something docile for her to learn how a bike works, and why I do the things I do, etc. Apart from that I think it's just experience. I imagine that the next ride we do with twisties she will be more relaxed, since it won't be unfamiliar any more.

On the upside, I had the good sense to marry someone who really enjoys being along for the ride as I push through the curves. In fact, I suspect that part of the reason she wasn't as relaxed as she could have been was simply that she was alert and watching what was going on because she was having fun—but that sort of fun also induces a fair bit of tension (;

[ZeroIndex]

1. I'd suggest getting a pack rack, that way the pillion feels like they are sitting in the bike, rather than perched on the back ... it gives a little bit of reassurance to the rider as well.

2. try getting pillion to sit with her hands resting on her legs, rather than holding on (this will be much easier with a pack rack fitted)

3. Its all down to your riding ... easy on the throttle, even easier on the brakes .. steady and smooth. soon enough the pillion will be relaxed enough to fall asleep if they want .. .you'll be surprised how fast you can get when they are relaxed

One bit to add to number 2: If you have a grab rail at the back of the bike, get the pillion to use that... They can push forward on acceleration, and pull back under braking... they even get to lean a bit more on the corners, and they become an important factor in the enjoyment of the trip, not just a dead weight...

[TerminalAddict]

bnonn: (and zeroindex) .. take warr out for a pillion ride ;)

You'll soon learn that a dead weight, that isn't leaning is far more preferable to a pillion that likes to lean for you

he even start fidlling with my controls on the bars :shit:

[ZeroIndex]

bnonn: (and zeroindex) .. take warr out for a pillion ride ;)

You'll soon learn that a dead weight, that isn't leaning is far more preferable to a pillion that likes to lean for you

he even start fidlling with my controls on the bars :shit:

Sounds like what i did with Jonno... When being a pillion with Jonno, you end up hanging right off the bike, but on his DR650, we were riding through town and I got bored, so I started playing with his kill-switch... that bike does some mean backfires :)

Ps. I can't take Pillions... I only have one seat :(

[Bnonn]

TA, I had always thought (and been told by numerous riders of reasonable experience) that a pillion should keep her head inside the rider's. Ie, she should look where the rider is looking, keeping her head to the inside of his as they are in the curve. This causes her naturally to lean with the bike. You seem to be saying that a dead weight pillion is preferable? That seems to go against everything I've heard and experienced.

Sorry if I've misunderstood you. Perhaps you meant a rider who is neutral and follows your own lean, rather than one who tries to "help out" by leaning unexpectedly, or more than desired. Because I have experienced that also, and I agree that a non-neutral pillion is rather disturbing.

[TerminalAddict]

If I am carry a dead weight (lets say a 50kg bag of spuds) I can predict exactly what that weight is going to do, because it only moves when I tell it to

if I'm going fast and have a pillion, then she gets a tap on the back, which means move in close to me ... some times she even sits in the same seat as me (kind of drops her bum in to the riders seat a little bit)
that way I can move her with my shoulders etc
but generally speaking (and this includes *all* of the saturday ride) I don't move, and neither does she ... that was all counter steering, no leaning at all .. I spent the entire day sitting perpendicular to the bike

if the pillion is seated back, and leaning thier own angle then who is in control of the bike?

Should the pillion be steering the bike? or the rider?

[ZeroIndex]

TA, I had always thought (and been told by numerous riders of reasonable experience) that a pillion should keep her head inside the rider's. Ie, she should look where the rider is looking, keeping her head to the inside of his as they are in the curve. This causes her naturally to lean with the bike. You seem to be saying that a dead weight pillion is preferable? That seems to go against everything I've heard and experienced.

Sorry if I've misunderstood you. Perhaps you meant a rider who is neutral and follows your own lean, rather than one who tries to "help out" by leaning unexpectedly, or more than desired. Because I have experienced that also, and I agree that a non-neutral pillion is rather disturbing.


If I am carry a dead weight (lets say a 50kg bag of spuds) I can predict exactly what that weight is going to do, because it only moves when I tell it to

if I'm going fast and have a pillion, then she gets a tap on the back, which means move in close to me ... some times she even sits in the same seat as me (kind of drops her bum in to the riders seat a little bit)
that way I can move her with my shoulders etc
but generally speaking (and this includes *all* of the saturday ride) I don't move, and neither does she ... that was all counter steering, no leaning at all .. I spent the entire day sitting perpendicular to the bike

if the pillion is seated back, and leaning thier own angle then who is in control of the bike?

Should the pillion be steering the bike? or the rider?

Haha, with Carver, unless you don't want to make it through the corners on his GS (when he had it), you did a LOT of leaning... if you didn't hang off the bike sufficiently, you weren't making it through the corner... but I guess it's also rider training for the pillion... If they know how to ride it's very good cause they get to get better at their leaning... how Carver manages with the amount I was leaning, I don't know, cause I know exactly what you mean TA... but for some reason, the pillion leaning heavily off the bike is exactly how Carver likes taking pillions on his crazy fast riding...

[Bnonn]

K, gotcha TA. We don't disagree in that case; what you are describing is the same as my understanding of a neutral pillion. Except, with a neutral pillion, they will (as you say) move with the rider, if he chooses to move. Moving her with your shoulders, or having her keeping her head inside yours, achieves the same thing. Note that when I say the pillion's head is inside the rider's, I don't mean the pillion is leaning more. Viewed head on they are in line with each other. But, viewed from the apex of the corner, the pillion and the rider are both looking right at you.

[TerminalAddict]

Bnonn: PERFECT!!!!!!

and bling awarded ;)

[ZeroIndex]

K, gotcha TA. We don't disagree in that case; what you are describing is the same as my understanding of a neutral pillion. Except, with a neutral pillion, they will (as you say) move with the rider, if he chooses to move. Moving her with your shoulders, or having her keeping her head inside yours, achieves the same thing. Note that when I say the pillion's head is inside the rider's, I don't mean the pillion is leaning more. Viewed head on they are in line with each other. But, viewed from the apex of the corner, the pillion and the rider are both looking right at you.

but then the pillion can't see through the corner

[Sidewinder]

he only looked good because i wernt there. lol

[Waylander]

but then the pillion can't see through the corner
read it again.

[Richard Mc F]

Harden up pussies........a rider pillion combo who have riden a lot of kms together will move out quick, my co pilot does not like the flick from side to side stuff of the coro loop pleasant.....gets motion sickness......dragging the stand and frontheader pipe on "the duck" at 120km plus is just fine though....we have practiced...have good tyres and suspension......and 25 plus years practice

[MidnightMike]

jesus..dont go on that road unless u are riding an eventure bike..its one of the worst roads in NZ.....all gravel ,and tight corners....hasnt changed in 100 yrs.

:rofl: Thats where I went yesterday. And I'd have to agree with what your saying there. It took me half an hour to get all the dirt off my bike once i got back home, not to mention all my gear...

Though I must say, it was strangely fun. :doobey:



how "gravel" is it? Is it thick stuff or the fine looseish dusty stuff?

When I went through i was raining so pretty much clay road = slippery as fuck.

And the corners are gravel, the thick stuff, and the odd fallen tree :shit: so its just a bitch of a road to get through without having atleast 10 'oh shit' moments.

[ZeroIndex]

Harden up pussies........a rider pillion combo who have riden a lot of kms together will move out quick, my co pilot does not like the flick from side to side stuff of the coro loop pleasant.....gets motion sickness......dragging the stand and frontheader pipe on "the duck" at 120km plus is just fine though....we have practiced...have good tyres and suspension......and 25 plus years practice

That's the stuff I'm talking about... a rider/pillion combo, not a rider + dead weight... it's a team effort

[Antipigs]

he gets my respect.. i followed him on the road between whitianga and tairua.. i will admit he was riding rather rapidly however.. WHO DOESENT!.. and further to say that in this time i didnt see his bike look out of control or unstable at all.. and from what i gather his pillion rider was enjoying the ride too.. So why not i say. If your an experienced rider like he is then get out there.. open the throttle and just have fun!

[Sidewinder]

bnonn: (and zeroindex) .. take warr out for a pillion ride ;)

You'll soon learn that a dead weight, that isn't leaning is far more preferable to a pillion that likes to lean for you

he even start fidlling with my controls on the bars :shit:

totaly agree buddy

[Lauza]

Thought u guys might like the pillions point of view. I wasnt his pillion on that day but i've been his pillion a few times before. The first time i went with him i was shit scared, as i was so worried i was gonna do something wrong in a corner and affect what the bike was doing. This worried me cauz im used to being the rider not the pillion and used to leaning rather than just going with the bike. I spent most of the first ride closing my eyes coming up to corners and opening them once we were leant over, cauz then i knew my body would go where it naturally should (and yes, i got mocked a lot for closing my eyes), but still it meant i learnt how it should feel to be riding on the back so the next time, it wasnt at all scary and i throughly enjoy it now. In regards to his riding, he's fast but not stupid, he knows his limits and rides well within them with a pillion on. He's also done that loop a few times so its not like he was in unknown territory. And yup i completely agree he's an awesome teacher and his obsessive compulsiveness means he's watched the likes of Warr and worked out exactly how and why he does things, which is good for me, cauz then he explains it all to us newbies :P .. and yeah this post is like way late but im extremely bored and thought i'd read through this exciting thread i'd heard so much about :P