Is intentional practice necessary?

[Sanx]

Some background first

My dad taught me to ride on an 1979 Honda CX500 when I was about 15 or 16 (below legal driving age in the UK) on a private road. He made me do figure of eights, starts, stops, hill starts and so on. When you're a skinny teenager (yes, I was skinny once :shit:), doing low speed figure of eights on a bike that weighed well over 200kg was something that required a fair amount of concentration and balance. Other than riding one of his later bikes (an FJ1200) round a car-park once a couple of years later, I didn't jump on a bike again until I was 29.

However, in the intervening years, I did spend a fair amount of time with four wheels. I've owned a number of reasonable sports cars and done a reasonable amount of kart and saloon car racing. In 15 years of motoring, up until my diesel-soaked roundabout-induced off a couple of weeks ago, I'd never had an accident that didn't involve someone running into the back of me.

When I decided to buy a bike three years ago, I went and booked the basic handling test. That was my first moment on a bike since I was a teenager. I took a couple of minutes (literally) to reacquaint myself with the controls and took the test; and passed. I bought my XR250ES a couple of days later. Picked it up from the dealership, then rode it home. In strong winds. And rain. Over the harbour bridge. At rush hour.

When I got my bike, I just rode it. I didn't practice anything; I just got on it and rode to wherever I needed to go. I did this in all weathers and all conditions and simply didn't think about it. I suppose I've always been blessed with fairly good control of two wheeled objects (competive downhill mountain-biking when I was younger) and a general affinity for motorised transport. However, learning to ride is not just learning how to control a bike - it's two-wheeled road-sense as well. You can't really practice that. You have to develop it and pick it up and the only way is through real-world experience.

All of this gets me onto my point: is it really necessary to intentionally go out and practice certain things on the road? Or is it just better to jump on the bike and ride the damn thing; go out and ride to where you need to go.

[Karma]

That's a good question... and one to which there is no definitive answer.

I know that when I learnt to ride the training course was all practical... no fucking around in car parks, just get out there and go. Of course we started in quiet areas with very little traffic, but steadily moved out and about until we were on some fairly busy UK A-Roads.

My 2c... the more confident amongst us will just ride out and deal with shit as it happens, the more timid may need to practice things a few times to make sure they know what to do when it happens. Either way I spose, horses for courses.

[ambler]

I got my license in Japan where they require you do all kinds of stupid things which have little to no bearing on real-life riding, with the exception of one - stopping quickly. So far I have avoided two accidents due to all the drilling I did for the test.
So in my opinion if there is one thing you should practise, it is getting to know the limit of how hard you can brake without locking up, for that time when you need to do it for real. Practise it in the wet too.

[Steam]

I recently did a RRRS course, they do them a Whenuapai airbase in Auckland. Even a very experienced GSXR rider who does 200+kph weekend blasts on the back roads learned something.
Emergency braking and emergency countersteering were the main points for me.
At only $50 for a full day of training, it's unbeatable value. And it's fun, you get to bullshit with other bikers and ogle machines and mess around on a vast runway.

[yungatart]

Perhaps if you learn to ride when you are young, full of testosterone, no fear and a lack of brain cells to boot, you may not need to "practice". Things come more easily to young people.
For me, a confirmed an old fartess and nana to boot, I need to practice. Riding does not come naturally to all of us, certainly not to me.
FWIW< I agree with Steam - A RRRS course is invaluable.

[Paul in NZ]

OK - I'm not a fan of mentoring or expressing my opinions too much on riding because everyones experience is different, I leave that to the pro's!

BUT!!!!!!

In ALL aspects of you life, our brain and body can only handle a certain amount of conscious thought. Tennis players at the top level, Tiger Woods etc all have little rituals they go through between points / holes to reset the 'programme' so everything will run on auto pilot and the behaviour will become largely automatic.

You cannot actively monitor every activity on a ride all the time. You will become fatigued in no time.

Some essential activities must become rituals - mine include things like tapping the brakes to check function and teach my body the location of levers / pedals well before I need them, completing an 'emergency' stop on every ride, walking around my bike looking for leaks or faults before i ride and during a ride, checking lamp function.

More riding oriented ones are deliberately thinking my way through the first corner and then switching that part off - hopefully it becomes automatic after that, over breaking the rear on a wet day to test tyre adhesion.

Practise? Yes, make it a ritual, update your rituals to keep it interesting after all - if you can't perform an action without stress (practise) you have no hope in an emergency...

[MSTRS]

Everyone has things they are good and not so good at. When it comes to motorcycling, the thing(s) you are not so good at may lead to an early demise. Identify what is substandard and consciously work on that every time you ride, until you feel you are doing it right (for you, anyway). The other parts of your riding should improve automatically.

[Keystone19]

Both.

Although I have only been riding a short while, I have had some great teachers. Both friends and courses (CBTA and RRRS) have taught me many skills. And I have gone and practiced those skills.

Now on the track, the same thing applies. I have some great teachers and will listen to everyone. I then go and try out what I have been told and practice those things that work for me.

Practicing taught skills allows you to understand what you have been told and to translate it into what works for you.

[timorang]

In support of an earlier comment, I have ridden bikes on and off road for years and have the scars to show for it. Like many I have returned to bikes after an absence of some years and felt comfortable almost immediately, but recently I too completed a RRRS course. It was well worth while and the main points that I took with me were also emergency braking and counter steering. Worth it for that alone.

The other area where I think all bikers should develop knowldege is about their bike - basic bike setup and maintenance. Regular checking of electrics, brakes, tyres (condition, type and pressures), steering and suspension.

[Terminated]

Earlier this year I attended an Advance Rider course. The majority of riders there were those who recently returned to riding after numerous years of not riding.

Being alert to the whole subject matter of 'practice' and raising it in the forum for discussion is a step in the right direction.

What fork in the road you take regarding practice is an individual choice. Enjoying the ride, arriving at the destination, and returning home safely...I do not take for granted.

Heads Up and Enjoy

[Biff]

If we're all honest with ourselves, most, if not all of us have some areas of our riding which is stronger than others, and where we may have fallen into a bad habit.

I'm all for practice and gaining more experience/confidence in areas of my ride I believe need improving. Especially when it comes to avoiding getting into lazy/bad habits. I talk my way through my ride. Especially on the fastbendybits.

Oh.....and everyone should practice their himergency stops...often.:yes:

[moko]

As a rider with over 30 years up when I change my bike I always take it to a deserted car park and do all the stuff your Dad made you do. All bikes are different and I'd rather learn how much I can hit the brakes before they'll lock up,get a feel for the clutch,balance of the bike e.t.c. before going very far on busy roads.I'm not a perfectionist,not anal(my bike gets washed when it rains),just don't believe in taking any chances when it comes to riding,rather find out how my brakes react with plenty of space and no traffic about than when some clod hangs a right in front of me.A big part of riding safely is being comfortable and confident in your bike's abilities,if you havn't taken a few minutes to find out what they are it might cost you later on.I'm not talking about spending a whole day riding around in circles,if you're an experienced rider 10 minutes will do it but it's 10 minutes well spent.
As for training,I'm hoping to do a days training with the local Police in July,even with so many miles in I'm fully expecting,hoping in fact,to learn something from the experts,probably picked up as many bad habits as good over the years.

[Morcs]

Ive found the more conscious practice I do, the worse my riding gets.

If you are an instinctive rider then you dont need the practice, all practicing will do is make you think, so when you end up with an 'Oh fuck' moment, you'll be thinking instead of acting upon instinct.

Mainly the reason I had an off this week, too much time thinking of what I should be doing rather than just doing what I should be doing...

[James Deuce]

Acting on instinct will get you killed. Instinct is designed for a different set of parameters than modern life. The human brain can only stay in the here and now up to 30 km/hr. Anything over that and you are now in planning, guessing, estimating, and speculating mode. Understanding the limitations of your CPU can help you tremendously.

Practice is essential. Objective observation of your current skill level is vital. Bad habits and guesses kill more people than speed and alcohol combined. An accident in which speed is a factor is often the end result of poor instinctive reaction. Flight and fright are inappropriate responses in a regulated environment.

Morcs - pick ONE thing to work on if you feel you need to. Trying to do too many things at once will result in the confusion you feel. One thing.

[Morcs]

Acting on instinct will get you killed. Instinct is designed for a different set of parameters than modern life. The human brain can only stay in the here and now up to 30 km/hr. Anything over that and you are now in planning, guessing, estimating, and speculating mode. Understanding the limitations of your CPU can help you tremendously.

Practice is essential. Objective observation of your current skill level is vital. Bad habits and guesses kill more people than speed and alcohol combined. An accident in which speed is a factor is often the end result of poor instinctive reaction. Flight and fright are inappropriate responses in a regulated environment.

Morcs - pick ONE thing to work on if you feel you need to. Trying to do too many things at once will result in the confusion you feel. One thing.


I get your points, but what I mean by instinct is subconsious thinking, your brain evaluating and processing all the time without consciously thinking it.

[pritch]

If you are an instinctive rider then you dont need the practice,

Sorry can't agree with that. In motorcycling most things that are "instinctive" will cause you pain. Imagine you are a newbie startled by a powerslide and instinctively bang the throttle shut.

Mr Newbie I see you've met Mr Highside...

In an "Oh Shit!" moment you generally have only a very small fraction of a second to react. Better that you have a solution handy than that you have to go searching through the cobwebs at the back of your mind... Best thing is to keep the solutions near the front, and the best way to do that is to practice.

[Morcs]

Sorry can't agree with that. In motorcycling most things that are "instinctive" will cause you pain. Imagine you are a newbie startled by a powerslide and instinctively bang the throttle shut.

Mr Newbie I see you've met Mr Highside...

In an "Oh Shit!" moment you generally have only a very small fraction of a second to react. Better that you have a solution handy than that you have to go searching through the cobwebs at the back of your mind... Best thing is to keep the solutions near the front, and the best way to do that is to practice.

Ah yes, but the more experience you get, the more likely is that your instinct is correct because after that amount of time you learn the things you described. That is the point im making. Getting out there and riding is far more valuable, and as much as I hate crashing, I learn from them everytime. Rather know what works by having it happen, than reading a solution in a textbook.

Practice over theory anyday.

[MSTRS]

.....Rather know what works by having it happen, than reading a solution in a textbook.



Assuming you are left in a condition that is still able to ride etc....
Learn the theory, then practice and fine tune as you improve.

[McJim]

Everyone's brains work differently.

what's right for some ain't right for others.

Find the learning style that suits you - in short learn how to learn - it will be the best skill you ever acquired.

20 years business experience has shown me that probably about 2% of people know how to learn - the rest just remember - big difference.

[HDTboy]

Ive found the more conscious practice I do, the worse my riding gets.

Practice over theory anyday.
Which is it?

I get your points, but what I mean by instinct is subconscious thinking, your brain evaluating and processing all the time without consciously thinking it.

There's a big difference between being able to do something without consciously thinking about it, and going on instinct. As stated by Jim2. Instincts get you hurt.

Assuming you are left in a condition that is still able to ride etc....
Learn the theory, then practice and fine tune as you improve.
Got it in one. You can't practise something if you don't know what it is you're trying to practise.
Keen for a short ride tomorrow Morcs?

[Morcs]

Keen for a short ride tomorrow Morcs?

Of course. Got to be early early though... work at 10am...

:D

[Trudes]

We often go down to a large deserted car park and practice emergency stops, and for me U-turn practice as I suck at them. I think it's good to have some fore knowledge of what your bike and you are going to do in an emergency situation, and stopping quickly is pretty important. Like most things, if you practice something enough eventually it will become second nature, so hopefully when someone pulls out in front of me etc, it'll be second nature to break properly and not just grab a large handful of front break.
My other half has recently got a new bike, so we should really head on down to the practice pit again soon, and I noticed when I first rode it that it breaks differently to my bike and that I couldn't U-turn for shit on it, so I need to practice on his bike too before I ride it again.
Good luck with your practice!!:Punk:

[BarBender]

All of this gets me onto my point: is it really necessary to intentionally go out and practice certain things on the road? Or is it just better to jump on the bike and ride the damn thing; go out and ride to where you need to go.

A bit of both Sanxie and a little bit more.

I think it takes more than skills and practice. Theres a fair amount of cognitive knowledge and behaviour required in the mix as well.

Agree with where McJim is heading. Learning is dependent on being self autonomous. Getting on the bike and practicing or riding will get you part of the way but there has to be at the very start a degree of self awareness, an inquiring mind, the desire and discipline to practice and the ability to take what you've learnt and use it when you need to.

What I am also realising recently is the importance of physical conditioning required to enjoy the types of riding I do. (drags, the odd track day, travelling to and from work everyday and a ride every weekend)

[Terminated]

I get your points, but what I mean by instinct is subconsious thinking, your brain evaluating and processing all the time without consciously thinking it.

This is in left field:
Compare the whole process of learning to type: I did many many moons ago. So now touch typing is second nature, the correct finger goes to the correct key rapidly followed by the next and the next etc etc without consciously thinking about the keys where they are and whether it is on the left side or rights side, top row, middle row, bottom row, index finger, thumb to space bar, middle finger or whatever.

Instinct and ingrained training can be blurred at times particularly if the ingrained training is not reviewed. Hitting the wrong keyboard key when typing or grabbing a handful of brake, or not electing to emergency counter steer.....out there on the road the scenarios are numerous. How we best prepare for them we hear and read time and again: practise, practise, practise.

Bringing this back to the whole matter of practice, "your brain evaluating and processing all the time without consciously thinking it," ultimately we strive for a successful result. How we improve the skill set is an individual discipline. A professional instructor to review our riding technique....like going to the family doctor for a health check up, you may not think you need it, but like insurance it will be a wise move.


Heads Up and Enjoy

[Black Bandit]

I regard every time I climb on the bike as an opportunity to learn, practice and hone the skill set required to pilot motorcycles. When I go for rides around my local routes I constantly try to evaluate my riding style, the lines through corners, the lean angle, the amount of speed that I can comfortably carry through bends, the approach to intersections etc.

Can I afford a little more lean angle?
Did I give myself sufficient time to see that cage and stop safely?

The greatest advantage I see with structured training is the opportunity to learn from experts, and unlearn bad habits that often evolve from self-taught sessions on the road. Personally I find very little about biking that is "natural" or "instinctive", and as said previously it's the instinctive reactions that get you in trouble.

My motto is evolving too. From "I wonder if I can" to:

Just because I can, doesn't mean that I should

[moko]

Instinct has saved me a couple of times but without practice I'd usually have come off anyway.I've done 25,000(50,000k approx) miles on my bike in a bit under 4 years and I know exactly how it'll react.So while last year instinct saved my neck when some guy cut across me on a roundabout if I didn't know exactly what my bike would do any part of braking hard,changeing line quickly then accelerating hard while leaned over could have,and probably would have seen me bouncing down the road.Neither of these are ideal on the road,instinct had me react,practice,and knowing my bike kept me calm and focussed on machine control.Big thing with riding is never take it for granted,always concentrate 100%,that's one reason I enjoy it so much,I leave everything else behind and find it very relaxing,a bit like meditation in a way.If you think you know it all,think you're the world's best rider you're heading for a fall sooner or later.I find I'm much more observant generally than most people I know,maybe as a result of riding a bike,you dont just look ahead,you need to know everything that's going on all around you and anticipate what's going on ahead.

[Terminated]

I have copied a link to this thread for the wannabe and newbie weekly 'Where Did You Ride and What Did You Practise?'
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1091223#post1091223

Heads Up and Enjoy

[swbarnett]

Early on in my riding career (though not a newbie any more) I had a situation where I lost confidence in a corner. Basically, my conscious brain said "I can't take this corner at this speed". I tried to brake without thinking about how much, straighten up first etc. If I had I would've been in deep dodo. However, my foot and hand would not move. I remember this eerie feeling of being completely detached from my limbs - they simply wouldn't do what I was commanding them to do. My subconscious brain actually overrode my conscious brain because, with all the practice I had done, it new better.

My point here is that, if you want to be able to react as fast as possible and react correctly you have to train your subconscious. The only way that I know of to do this is PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!

One side effect of practice is that if you meet a situation you haven't practiced your subconscious can take bits of what you have practiced and string them together to perform a completely new maneuver.

I had this happen to me when a car pulled out of a stationary line of traffic as I was passing at about 30-40k with me half-way along the car. I instictively pulled a tight lean-out to the right and, as I passed the front right corner of the car with the bumper scraping my foot peg, flipped over to a tight lean-out to the left, pulled upright and managed to carry on without coming off. Had I not practiced till the cows came home I would not have had the muscle memory and subconscious knowledge to pull this off. Not in a million years would I've thought to practice this particular maneuver.

Get out there and practice until it becomes second nature! And then practice some more.

[Disco Dan]

Ive found the more conscious practice I do, the worse my riding gets.

If you are an instinctive rider then you dont need the practice, all practicing will do is make you think, so when you end up with an 'Oh fuck' moment, you'll be thinking instead of acting upon instinct.

Mainly the reason I had an off this week, too much time thinking of what I should be doing rather than just doing what I should be doing...

I have to disagree Morcs :yes:

When a new rider encounters a "minty moment" their instinctual reactions will most likely be wrong. Riding a motorcycle requires you to almost 're-program' your instinctual reactions - something that takes practice, training and experience.

In a car, if something happens in front of you most peoples reaction is to slam on the brakes. If you do that on a bike - the result will most likely be a locked up front wheel and a ride in an ambulance. Changing your instinctual reactions to progressivly brake, loading up the shocks then increasing the braking force etc etc takes practice, training, experience and knowledge.

Head space is an important aspect to think about - especially those people that ride bikes as their primary or only form of transport... everyone has 'off' days. Being able to judge your own head space (mental health) and say to yourself - "im tired today, I only got 4 hours sleep last night and today the rain is horizontal I will take the bus" could save lives.

Bikes are my only form of transport (outside of work) and I have had days where I just could not focus and I would have been better off taking the bus/car/taxi etc etc...

Instincts are great... but they need to be right.

[Macktheknife]

Mainly the reason I had an off this week, too much time thinking of what I should be doing rather than just doing what I should be doing...

While I think I understand where you are coming from Morcs, what you have said here is quite misleading.
The fact you had an off is quite possibly related to your head space in relation to recent events. The fact that the kind of practice you like to do is not based on road skills but on track skills probably doesn't help either.
All riders IMHO should engage in reviewing the basic skills of handling a bike well, at regular intervals and especially when changing bikes. This allows for any bad habits to be addressed and corrected and also for training of 'instinctive' or unconscious response to situations.
Anyone who has trained for example in martial arts will know that it takes many hours of training to get movements to become unconscious and fluent, the same principle holds true for most skills including riding.

[Morcs]

I have to disagree Morcs :yes:

When a new rider encounters a "minty moment" their instinctual reactions will most likely be wrong. Riding a motorcycle requires you to almost 're-program' your instinctual reactions - something that takes practice, training and experience.

In a car, if something happens in front of you most peoples reaction is to slam on the brakes. If you do that on a bike - the result will most likely be a locked up front wheel and a ride in an ambulance. Changing your instinctual reactions to progressivly brake, loading up the shocks then increasing the braking force etc etc takes practice, training, experience and knowledge.

Head space is an important aspect to think about - especially those people that ride bikes as their primary or only form of transport... everyone has 'off' days. Being able to judge your own head space (mental health) and say to yourself - "im tired today, I only got 4 hours sleep last night and today the rain is horizontal I will take the bus" could save lives.

Bikes are my only form of transport (outside of work) and I have had days where I just could not focus and I would have been better off taking the bus/car/taxi etc etc...

Instincts are great... but they need to be right.


While I think I understand where you are coming from Morcs, what you have said here is quite misleading.
The fact you had an off is quite possibly related to your head space in relation to recent events. The fact that the kind of practice you like to do is not based on road skills but on track skills probably doesn't help either.
All riders IMHO should engage in reviewing the basic skills of handling a bike well, at regular intervals and especially when changing bikes. This allows for any bad habits to be addressed and corrected and also for training of 'instinctive' or unconscious response to situations.
Anyone who has trained for example in martial arts will know that it takes many hours of training to get movements to become unconscious and fluent, the same principle holds true for most skills including riding.

Yes, I think I phraised it slightly wrong.

Both Yourself and Disco hit the nail on the head of what I actually meant.

[jade]

I have to disagree Morcs :yes:

When a new rider encounters a "minty moment" their instinctual reactions will most likely be wrong. Riding a motorcycle requires you to almost 're-program' your instinctual reactions - something that takes practice, training and experience.

In a car, if something happens in front of you most peoples reaction is to slam on the brakes. If you do that on a bike - the result will most likely be a locked up front wheel and a ride in an ambulance. Changing your instinctual reactions to progressivly brake, loading up the shocks then increasing the braking force etc etc takes practice, training, experience and knowledge.

Head space is an important aspect to think about - especially those people that ride bikes as their primary or only form of transport... everyone has 'off' days. Being able to judge your own head space (mental health) and say to yourself - "im tired today, I only got 4 hours sleep last night and today the rain is horizontal I will take the bus" could save lives.

Bikes are my only form of transport (outside of work) and I have had days where I just could not focus and I would have been better off taking the bus/car/taxi etc etc...

Instincts are great... but they need to be right.

I agree with this entire post.

heres my post from yesterday.

I had an off day today. first caught a group of bikers in albany that I could tell were going for a blat, k7 thou - black with pillion was leading
speed triple zx12r and something else plus me
I wasnt in my zone and found myself rushing trying to keep up, as we got a bit more rural the pace upped and eventually I pulled over and decided I wasnt in the right state of mind, hungover and no boots plus a runny nose after a decent ride so i turned around and went back to my original destination, upon overtaking a car I got the most violent tankslapper ive had before and It slowed me back down.
couple hours later on a busy northshore road where motorcycle dealers are located I wound out 2nd gear when a car crossed my path, I was on the brakes hard, sliding sideways but I kept my cool and powered out
very fucked.
its 1:55, beautiful day - Ive got nothing to do but im not going back out today

The near miss I had yesterday with the car was not a nice experience, It was virtually Identical to 2 years ago when I had the same thing, locked up and hit a car breaking my femeur in 5 places.
Braking as hard as possible on the front from 100km in a 50 zone when a car pulled across my lane 20-25m ahead of me, rear was locked and starting to overtake the front, so I ditched the brakes picked an escape and went for it. thank fuck I pulled it off.
It is well and truly amazing how many thoughts your mind can process in a single moment,
Personally I think practice is important, I ride like an idiot sometimes and I like the feeling of pushing my machine to the limits of braking, grip and lean as well as getting to know what my tyres are truly capable of, even if it is at low speeds <70 . I am learning to do stoppies atm and I do them at virtually every traffic light or giveway, ive locked the front 4-5 times usually due to cold tyres, Ive always managed to recover - the point is I think you not only need to train yourself by practicing emergency stops and such, you need to also attempt to find the limits of these manouveres so in that instant of a second when the shit hits the fan you are prepared for the worst cAse scenario
and as per disco dans post realise that sometimes you arent in the right mindstate and you do need to call it a day - sometimes man and machine just dont gel

[MSTRS]

The near miss I had yesterday with the car was not a nice experience, It was virtually Identical to 2 years ago when I had the same thing, locked up and hit a car breaking my femeur in 5 places.
Braking as hard as possible on the front from 100km in a 50 zone when a car pulled across my lane 20-25m ahead of me, rear was locked and starting to overtake the front, ....
Personally I think practice is important, I ride like an idiot sometimes and I like the feeling of pushing my machine to the limits of braking, grip and lean as well as getting to know what my tyres are truly capable of...

Part of learning to handle your bike includes learning what is appropriate in any given situation. This is a lesson that you seem to have not taken on board....
100kph in a 50 zone, same as 2 years ago, etc???
Take it to the track. At least you won't take out a kid there....:mad:

[moko]

I am learning to do stoppies atm and I do them at virtually every traffic light or giveway, ive locked the front 4-5 times usually due to cold tyres, Ive always managed to recover - the point is I think you not only need to train yourself by practicing emergency stops and such, you need to also attempt to find the limits of these manouveres

You do indeed mate but cutting that kind of shit on the road is going to get you dead or banned.It's also the kind of stuff other people see and think all bikers are dangerous idiots and should all be banned.
Do it on a track,do it off-road where yeah,maybe it is a good demonstration of machine control.Do it on the road and you'll either end up getting canned one way or the other or 2 years down the line bleating about the restrictions the Govt have pushed through to save people like you from themselves and everyone else from your stupidity.Said it before and I'll say it again ,some of the "knowledge" imparted by some of the younger/newbie riders on this site is plain scary,no wonder there are so many "I've binned my bike" threads here.Riding's a skill and bike's are not toys,forget that and you could well end up maimed,scarred,brain-damaged or 6 feet under.......I've got/had biker mates in all 3 categories.Got a bit of my bottom lip missing myself which is luckily not too noticeable but for years was a major mental thing for me.Dangerous enough out there without pushing your luck and like MSTRS says you could hit a kid or some other innocent and if you think you're gonna just put that one to the back of your mind if it happens you've got a lot of growing up to do.

[90s]

It was virtually Identical to 2 years ago when I had the same thing, locked up and hit a car breaking my femeur in 5 places.
Braking as hard as possible on the front from 100km in a 50 zone when a car pulled across my lane 20-25m ahead of me ... I ride like an idiot sometimes and I like the feeling of pushing my machine to the limits of braking, grip and lean as well as getting to know what my tyres are truly capable of

With this attitude you are not going to last long on the k6 750 you want. If you get there. Even more worrying is maybe that you'll take me out tyring to "pushing [your] machine to the limits" in a 50kph zone.

This thread is all about learning and reflection. If I was you I would read my own posts very carefully and reflect on what I am learning or not.

Before you are able to find out "what my tyres are truly capable of" you need to be aware of what you are capable of learning yourself. And you should really be aware that modern tyres on large bikes really don't have zone where you can feel them "going" before they go. Push - push - push - bin. And that's how you find out. So best do it on the tack.

[90s]

Back to the main thread ... ever wondered why so many cage drivers are so bad? Its because they ingrain years of bad habbits, get away with poor driving (without even being aware of it), and surrounded by safety cells and crumple zones do not pay the full price for their mistakes.
Most of the worst will tell you "oh I have years experience yadda yadda." Most are totally unprepared for emergency or unlikely situations. And most will feel that their experience they have "picked up" is enough.

And we know its not.

The discussion on this thread has been excellent. There's no skill or area you cannot improve on with reflective learning. The one issues is sometimes paralysis by analysis (which is why even sports pros taking extra coaching sometimes "loose their game" over-thinking). But this too is a transitional state when the conscious mind is trying to re-programme the learned behviours. It requires "a big man" (laddies too) to say "I can improve on this" and to question why we do things.

There is a real limit to what useful information we pick up just by life, or by daily driving. And it is shockingly low.

[FROSTY]

Not doin the "my balls r biger n yours 'thing here BUT.
Ive been riding the best part of 30 years now and still I haven't stopped learning.
To me its a matter of moving as much of my riding into the subconcious as possible. This frees up more of the concious mind to deal with the OHH shit stuff.

[MVnut]

The concious mind is not really fast enough to deal with the unexpected. The subconcious is far quicker and far more powerful. Try to get into 'auto-pilot' and you'll be smoother, quicker etc etc and more able to overcome the 'panic' situations. It is also easier to control the information in the subconcious as it can be taught to believe/react to anything instantly. And back on the thread, I try to practise every time I get on a bike, sometimes physical things, sometimes more mind control.:rockon:

[Sanx]

This talk of conscious / subconscious is quite interesting, and his got me thinking a little. I'm rather fortunate that, other than a few emergency braking manouvers thanks to fuckwit cagers, I've never had a real 'oh shit' moment on a bike.

However, there is a parallel that I can think of. My other half's little MX5 has rather 'entertaining' road-holding, especially in the wet. I've never driven a car where it's so easy to get the back to step out. I do it fairly often, just for a giggle. Today, however, it did it without me trying. My reaction was purely instinctive / subconscious; do not let off the gas suddenly, steer into the skid, hold it for a fraction of a second then bring it back into line gently. I reacted to it faster than I could consciously think, certainly.

Now, I've never gone out and practiced that particular skill, but I have done a reasonable amount of saloon and kart racing. I know the theory behind skid-control and power-sliding (again, thanks to my father) but it's not something I've tried to develop. So ... how have I learned it? With no practice, how has it become second nature?

[rwh]

Now, I've never gone out and practiced that particular skill, but I have done a reasonable amount of saloon and kart racing. I know the theory behind skid-control and power-sliding (again, thanks to my father) but it's not something I've tried to develop. So ... how have I learned it? With no practice, how has it become second nature?

Have you imagined yourself doing it? There's a fairly well known test with a bunch of basketballers where those who imagined themselves practising shooting baskets did nearly as well as those who really did it, and both much better than those who did no practice.

I think that's also the reason I did what I think was the right thing when I hit a patch of slippery mud only a few months into my riding - I accelerated through it, with both wheels slipping. I'd never done that before, but I had pictured myself in similar situations. The only downside was splattering limbimtimwim's bike with mud :)

Richard

[swbarnett]

I do it fairly often, just for a giggle.

This may be the answer. You've practiced the first stages and the brain has an uncanny way of extrapolating. It's either this or as rwh says, you may have imagined doing it. If you have a good understanding of the theory of a particular action imagining it is just as good as actually practicing it.