Number of competitors for club meet?

[GSVR]

I haven't been racing that long so maybe some old hats could put there views across on this.

Rnd1 of the Vics had around 160 entered and this time Rnd2 I read its around 185. This means some people may not qualify and if there isn't another group/class for them to go into the wont get to race.

Also big numbers mean alot more time is required all round. These days if theres something other than a minor crash chances are the race is red flagged. In the old days riders used to wait injured for the end of the race (or so I heard).

So my question is should club race entry be limited to say 35 per class and once this is filled no more. This would create incentive for people to enter early and avoid a big last minute rush for organisers. My fear is if competitors go to meetings and don't get value for money they will loose interest and numbers will drop off and general interest in racing will decrease.

I'm espeacilly interested in hearing about the 80's when racing was huge compared to now.

[boostin]

To give a really crap reply, I dont think limiting the class to the first 35 entrants is the way to go.

Just recently there was a thread on getting more people into the sport, I think that limiting to first in first served will not help.

Having said that I dont know what the answer is...Starting earlier, finishing later, more 2 day events, droping motards :dodge: (pt on the motards bit) ?

[bistard]

With Clubmans A & B,if you have entered the Formula classes & dont qualify,you will some where to race!!
There has to be maximum feilds,for saftey reasons & if they are exceeded,then the only fair way to do it is by lap times,then the incentive is to go faster & qualify next time

[ArcherWC]

so what happens when the clubmans fields are too big???

[bistard]

so what happens when the clubmans fields are too big???

Between the two Clubmans classes,there is facility for 70 riders & two lots of lap times,If they are both full then I would say the sport is in bloody good shape
Dont panic guys,you will get to race!!

[boostin]

Good point, don't think they have had to exclude anyone from racing yet.

At round one some people got bumped into clubmans, but still had somewhere to race.

[FROSTY]

If its any help
back in the awd days --OMG now I sound old
anyhoo we used to have such big feilds in 250 proddy we would run a and b grade -might work for F3--but it adds yet abnother class to get through.
also I think given the number of entrys possibly the club may need to use the one bike one class rule.
hmm 180 entrys divided by 3 formula classes-2 clubbie classes tards and post classics--so 180 divided by 7 equalls 26 roughly per class soit shouldnt be a problem

[GSVR]

You logic works Tony if no one cross enters.

Streetstock guys are no longer allowed to cross enter into F3 has this made streetstock more appealing now you can only enter one class?

Of course everyone could get to race even if 500 entered but the quality and quantity would be so low I'd be saying hey why not race my mates at trackdays or testdays.

With big entries you get delays gridding up, more offs and races being shortened or declared after not even running half distance.

Why are more than 35 bikes allowed to qualify? This is where your meant to be pressing for the one quick lap and riding 110% so theres even more chance of a mishap if your on your one good lap and someone is in the wrong place at the wrong time?

[flame]

Between the two Clubmans classes,there is facility for 70 riders & two lots of lap times,If they are both full then I would say the sport is in bloody good shape
Dont panic guys,you will get to race!!

yerrrr....naa, sounds right, but it's not, because clubmans A and B run together, so I don't think it would be a good idea to have 70 bikes on the track at the same time. So A & B would probably also be limited to 35 bikes total too.

[steveyb]

If you don't qualify, you don't qualify!!! You need to go away to test days and trackdays and learn to ride faster.
The likelihood of a rider not qualifying for clubmans class is almost NILL!!
Riders that are worried about that will be only in Superbike or Supersport.
I was in that situation at Taupo. I was entered in SBK and SSP, but was selling a set of tyrewarmers (see, www.tyrewarmers.co.nz go the extra mile) so forwent my qualifying session for SSP. I thought, it will be OK there won't be too many riders. OOPs! There were too many, so I was excluded.
Such is life. So I went out and was in the top 15 for SBK on the twofiddy, so would have been sweet for SSP.
The moral is, if you don't qualify, it is an incentive for you to go and train and practice and try harder next time.
For VMCC to have 170-180 entries means the sport is in good health I would say!!

Steve

[flame]

Between the two Clubmans classes,there is facility for 70 riders & two lots of lap times,If they are both full then I would say the sport is in bloody good shape
Dont panic guys,you will get to race!!

yerrrr....naa, sounds right, but it's not, because clubmans A and B run together, so I don't think they would have 70 bikes on the track at the same time. So A & B would probably also be limited to 35 bikes total too.

[steveyb]

If you don't qualify, you don't qualify!!! You need to go away to test days and trackdays and learn to ride faster.
The likelihood of a rider not qualifying for clubmans class is almost NILL!!
Riders that are worried about that will be only in Superbike or Supersport.
I was in that situation at Taupo. I was entered in SBK and SSP, but was selling a set of tyrewarmers (see, www.tyrewarmers.co.nz go the extra mile) so forwent my qualifying session for SSP. I thought, it will be OK there won't be too many riders. OOPs! There were too many, so I was excluded.
Such is life. So I went out and was in the top 15 for SBK on the twofiddy, so would have been sweet for SSP.
The moral is, if you don't qualify, it is an incentive for you to go and train and practice and try harder next time.
For VMCC to have 170-180 entries means the sport is in good health I would say!!

BTW, I raced in the 250 Proddy 30 min race as support for the WSBK meeting at Minefield in 1992(??). We had 50 bikes on the grid!!! It was manic!! But Davy Cole cut through us like a hot knife through butter anyway on his NSR250. GO HONDA, ICHI-BAN!!

Steve

[steveyb]

yerrrr....naa, sounds right, but it's not, because clubmans A and B run together, so I don't think they would have 70 bikes on the track at the same time. So A & B would probably also be limited to 35 bikes total too.

If this ends up being the case then the customer will dictate what happens and two classes will need to be run separately.

The customer is always right, aren't they????

Steve ;-)

[scracha]

If they are both full then I would say the sport is in bloody good shape


So it's got nothing to do with the fact there's very few tracks and very few races?

[cowpoos]

I reckon if theres more that 35 entry's per class...the cross entered racer's get booted first rather than the slowest...if you on a f3 bike and out qualify some supersport riders...neat...but they turn up to race in their class...same with F1...or any other class that can be cross entered!

[White trash]

Scared of a stock 600 are ya? :dodge:

[cowpoos]

Scared of a stock 600 are ya? :dodge:
yeah...lmfao!!!....mines stock too...

[kickingzebra]

These damn stock bikes of ours trashy, just about as fast as those stock R6s out there..

[roadracingoldfart]

If you look at how many 400s are now doing F3 as well as Post Classic Junior or F3 and Supersport. If all those bikes were limited to one class which would it be ??? . P/C Junior because the old 400s cant run with the 650s in F3 unless your a demon rider or have a very fast bike like Jarrod on his ZXR .
The fairest way to limit a class no matter what is to adapt a qualifying cut off.
If that is another way to enforce limits to the size of the field then thats also good because the fairness is equal and as Steve B said, "if ya dont qualify then ya dont qualify". Seems fair to me.
There are 400 based meetings in the UK and Aussie that have several catagories of stock , modified , etc 400s and they have shit loads of entries to fill a days race program but we have a limit on venues and organisations able to hold events like that.
Shame really.
Maybe we have to ask clubs for a summer series to accomodate such a thing or try to get a class in the national series.

[Keystone19]

Scared of a stock 600 are ya? :dodge:

Nah, I think he's scared of a stock sv650...:innocent:

[FROSTY]

Folks its a loose loose situation innit??
I don't envy the poor buggers that iorganise the event
No matter what they do people are gonna be pissed off
Mind you qualifying is the only fair way to do things i guess.

[Nicksta]

i'm with Mr Poos....
if the class is full, then the cross entered bikes should be stood down first.....

I wonder if the qualifying rule is imposed.... clubmans is full, then someone on a F1 bike didnt meet the 35 cutoff in F1, so gets bumped to Clubmans, qualified faster than a clubman's entrant... who gets the place in clubmans? when i counted, clubmans was 32 at Rd1 of VMCC.... that would allow for a total of 3 non qualifiers from other classes??

Frosty said it, its a sticky situation. Maybe limit entires to 40 per class, allows for the odd few that dont make it for raceday or crash on the day...qualifying then to find the top 35, the non qualifier either goes clubmans and then gets a spot in the original class if one drops out durning the day...

but at the end of the day, this could be pondered till the cows come home....
maybe the next few VMCC club meetings things like this can be discussed...
i think they already run the smoothest series i've seen... and its a tough job.

[svs]

the regs state (and did last year too) that there is a limit of 35 bikes per class for safety reasons. I think qualifying is the way to go, but here's another thought (probably not too popular tho) - is it too cheap? is it too easy to get into racing? after all $120 for a race license then $65 entry fee is cheaper than a lot of track days.

Should licenses be graded as in the UK? i.e. a novice cannot just turn up and enter a a superbike race - they have to prove themselves in novice events first? this involves results not just finishing.

As for price - I'm in the UK at the moment, talked to a friend who races enduro and their 3 man team paid £975 entry fee for a six hour race! even new era mcc entry fee is £115 (~$330) for 2 races, with cross entries an extra £25 per race. Should the vic club stop cross entries now that the rider numbers are so high? Should market forces dictate that race entries should be higher? the club is deliberately keeping entry fees as low as possible (it's a non-profit organisation remember) but is this causing the problems?

As for the number of races - well you can race all year round in NZ and the circuits are running meetings most weekend. This again is better than the UK where circuits are limited to a handful of noisy weekends per year.

Whatever the reason the entry numbers are high. This is good for the sport, but whatever way you start limiting the numbers on the grid you are going to piss someone off. But if anyone has any workable ideas, then let the committee members know. The current regs were put in place with a lot of thought and 'what if' senarios put in place, but if it doesn't work this year then something will have to be revisited.

(NB i'm not the secretary anymore so these are just my views now :) )

[GSVR]

Good that different ideas are coming out. On the pricing when the club gets huge entries it must do ok and cover its costs easily. Maybe this profit could be put into possibly giving price cuts to the Streetstock + 125 GP riders as these are generallly young guys/girls starting out with not alot of funds. This would be very good for nurturing the sport for years to come.

One bike per race class with no entering the same bike with a different rider in another class makes sense to me when numbers are huge.

Limiting entries per class before the meeting even starts seems to make the most sense as commited riders will enter for the season and there will still be places left for the that don't patronise the club quite so well. This way the those racing should get reasonable value (its not just the entry but the travelling. accomodation,etc) for their money.

Last year almost every meeting ran out of time and racing was cut short. This year even before the meeting was abandoned at Taupo it was looking that way.

At car meets I've seen drivers sign on the day before and get their transponders then (would this help).


Also if someone crashes maybe their bike could be cleared of the track and all crashed bikes picked up every second race or after the first round of racing has been completed. Won't be popular but will be more incentive for people not to crash and delay racing for everyone.

Just getting ideas out there...

[Sketchy_Racer]

some nice ideas there Garry.

I like the one of that the bikes wont get picked up fro every second race (unless the rider has to be picked up, or the bikes in a too dangerous place to pick it up with the race still running)

as you said, sucks a bit for those who fell off, so don't fall off.. (bit rich coming from me)

As for entry numbers.

Yes stop cross entering (even tho i like a extra class for only another $10....)
That way, there should be enough room in classes to shuffle bikes around to get everyone out there.

If there were say 210 entrys (not including cross entering) then at 35 bikes a group, you could have only 6 classes.

Only thing i would assume, is bikes that are moved into classes, but there bikes are not legit (because they didnt qualify, meaning they're probably not too worried about points etc) Dont let them run transponders. It means that the data for the people racing in that class are still getting timing etc.. but the people just out there having fun, are out there having fun.

Im sure it will be dealt with in the best possible way.

Oh anothe way to spread classes out, how about a bunch of people give up tractor racing, and come GP racing.. last time i looked there was 15 free places in the 125GP class.. they need filling people ;)

Again, just ideas.. Take em as you like.

-Sketchy Glen

[GIXser]

i think vmcc is taking the piss actually, they make firken moonbeams out of this, and sure a profit should be made i agree, but they need to cut the numbers, to a sustainable level.
furthermore, i heard , and i hope im incorrect by saying this, there are only three races in f1, ( 6 laps only)now to my calculation thats 3 x 6 min= 18 minutes ( im clever huh..!!)
+ sure ya get a practice and a scrub in...
hmmm hardly worth travelling to mandfield for from auckland, and i wont unless there is a trackday invloved at the same time..
6 laps aint enough to make a huge difference (10 maybe) but 6 no way..
i reckon they are taking the piss, and are being very greedy..

anyways thats my story and im sticking to it...

[FROSTY]

Not wanting to push any barrow here but a simple ammendment to the rules may be in order. maximum number per class 35 --clearcut rule decided by the club already.
qualifying for those 35 places to be on the day -already bein done.
One bike one class so no cross entrys -This was done at the taupo RR spectacular -I think entrys were about 150 and grids were all full so clearly it wasn't an issue there.There was clearly in the club provision to run clubmans class as 2 races for those that diddn't qualify for their race
And for the clubbie racers--Keep in mind that a rider that goes too fast in clubbie is disqualified so gets no points -so fast people in a class you are going for points in wont affect you
Use the Raised hand rule if you crash--Ie iffn ya ok and can push the bike to safety then do so -thatll reduce the down time caused by crashes
Anyhoo thats how I see it

[FROSTY]

i think vmcc is taking the piss actually, they make firken moonbeams out of this, and sure a profit should be made i agree, but they need to cut the numbers, to a sustainable level.
furthermore, i heard , and i hope im incorrect by saying this, there are only three races in f1, ( 6 laps only)now to my calculation thats 3 x 6 min= 18 minutes ( im clever huh..!!)
+ sure ya get a practice and a scrub in...
hmmm hardly worth travelling to mandfield for from auckland, and i wont unless there is a trackday invloved at the same time..
6 laps aint enough to make a huge difference (10 maybe) but 6 no way..
i reckon they are taking the piss, and are being very greedy..

anyways thats my story and im sticking to it...
Dude EVERYBODY is in the same boat--the 150SS guys pay exactly the same as you do as does every other class
Its no different to racing at Taupo or puke
They aint being greedy entry -fees are bloody low compared to AMCC
--they are trying to get people racing --simple really

ALTHOUGH THAT SAID--Is it big enough NOW to run as a 2 day meeting ??
Saturday practice /qualifying for ALL classes then sunday racing might be good.

[Toast]

Soem quite good ideas thrown around in here.

I especially like the bulk bike pick up round that Garry mentioned. Crashing causes most of the delays in the day, in my mind, which leads to people sitting on dummy grids forever, which leads to people waiting as long as possible to get to the dummy grid, which leads to organisers calling the dummy grid artificially early, which leads to people waiting even longer to get to the dummy grid, which leads to a fucked up state of affairs. Giving people the incentive to crash less and leave the balls out stuff for the Nationals would certainly make for a more smoothly run day.

On the subject of cross-entry: I probably wouldn't turn up if it wasn't allowed (unless I can get in a track day or two to make the 10 or 18 hour round trip worth it). I don't think that it is unfair on me if I can't cross-enter, but it just would just make it far more worth it for me to get 2-3 hours of track time at a Kiwitrackday than 20 minutes at a race day, even though I find the races a fair bit more fun.

I also wouldn't mind paying a bit more. $100 including transponder for a member is a pretty decent deal. If it were $150 I would still be quite happy with it (assuming cross-entry still allowed).

[GIXser]

Dude EVERYBODY is in the same boat--the 150SS guys pay exactly the same as you do as does every other class
Its no different to racing at Taupo or puke
They aint being greedy entry -fees are bloody low compared to AMCC
--they are trying to get people racing --simple really

ALTHOUGH THAT SAID--Is it big enough NOW to run as a 2 day meeting ??
Saturday practice /qualifying for ALL classes then sunday racing might be good.

Hey frosty, i dont have a problem with racing, only problem with "time on the track" your suggestion of 2 days could be an option


hope ya healing...:yes:

[Nicksta]

I think VMCC pricing is fair, especially as most of the costs involved arent to do with the race, but travelling, accommodation, food and sometimes time off work to get there and do it. I understand motorsport is expensive, but raising the entry will put it out of reach of the likes of myself who scrape by by teaming up with like minded people to work together to save costs and the help of sponsorship.
Bear in mind, VMCC actually subsidise the costs a bit in realtion to transponder hire and for the entry fee, it is one of the cheapest and most technically up to date and well run series' - I remember my first PMCC round just gone, more expensive, no timing, no grid instructions etc...

[ajturbo]

i think vmcc is taking the piss actually, they make firken moonbeams out of this, and sure a profit should be made i agree, but they need to cut the numbers, to a sustainable level.
furthermore, i heard , and i hope im incorrect by saying this, there are only three races in f1, ( 6 laps only)now to my calculation thats 3 x 6 min= 18 minutes ( im clever huh..!!)
+ sure ya get a practice and a scrub in...
hmmm hardly worth travelling to mandfield for from auckland, and i wont unless there is a trackday invloved at the same time..
6 laps aint enough to make a huge difference (10 maybe) but 6 no way..
i reckon they are taking the piss, and are being very greedy..

anyways thats my story and im sticking to it...
if you have ANY questions on how the Vic club runs the meets, why don't you email the president directly... that way you will have ALL the FACTS... then you can bitch....

on that note,
did you know that the club has 2 SS150's for new riders to the sport,
they are putting their money up to get these bikes to the track and ready to race, ... that is where some of the money goes... BACK INTO THE SPORT!....
to me that is possitive.....
your talk is negitive....

[ajturbo]

Oh anothe way to spread classes out, how about a bunch of people give up tractor racing, and come GP racing..

hey i don't race my bike!!!:sunny:

[Goblin]

If numbers are so high and grids are full, whats another 5 bikes per grid for a one day event? Increase grids to 40 bikes per class. How can that be any less safe that 35 bikes? If there's more interest and entries next year, increase the price and make it a two day event?

I like Garry's idea of crashed bikes being picked up after every second race too. If ambo is required then race should be red flagged but if someone just lowsides and are ok they can push their bike to saftey and wait. That has to be more incentive to not crash!

[GSVR]

If numbers are so high and grids are full, whats another 5 bikes per grid for a one day event? Increase grids to 40 bikes per class. How can that be any less safe that 35 bikes? If there's more interest and entries next year, increase the price and make it a two day event?


The 35 bike limit was set after a fatal accident the year before last when there was a huge F3 grid and several incidents. I for one would not like to see grids increased for that reason alone.

As for making it a two day event? Why not make it a 3 day event, run it at all the racetracks around NZ in the summer and call it the Vic Club National Points Series, and call the winners New Zealand National Champions. That way your almost sure to get low entries. PT.

[Goblin]

The 35 bike limit was set after a fatal accident the year before last when there was a huge F3 grid and several incidents. I for one would not like to see grids increased for that reason alone.
Ok. I havnt been around that long so wasn't aware of that. Fair enough.

[Flyno]

the cross enters have there own class to ride in!
my opinion is its ok for them to cross enter, but only if there is space!