The perils of training.

[howdamnhard]

Well tonight I was practicing emergency braking and managed to bin the bike.Luckily bike and myself escaped fairly unscathed,I'll know for sure tomorrow morning.Was locking up the rear wheel,tyre compound not the best but should have compensated, so it was suggested I only concentrate on front.Too aggressive,going to fast,too much front brake( same if not more than when using both brakes) and the next I know WAM I'm done and sliding foot stuck under bike with the sound of grating metal in my ears.:shit: :dodge: What I have learnt from this and the other occasion I've lost the front and dropped is this:1 PROGRESSIVE BRAKING IS GOOD.
2 DON'T USE FRONT BRAKE WHILST TURNING.
I 'm to inexperienced/ or slowed up to Detect the front washing out,the sudden change in horizon seems to be my first Que,therefore from now on I shall observe my two above rules with utmost care.

[xwhatsit]

Yeah... using your front brake while turning -- especially at carpark speeds -- can be tricky. I'm pretty n00by with the low speed stuff, so I'm super careful with the front brake and if I'm turning I use the rear brake more than anything else. Just don't lock it. Tricky to emergency brake in a corner anyway.

If you've washed out the front a few times, how's your front tyre? I mean it's perfectly possible (esp. at low speeds) to do that by being hamfisted (hell I have), but still...

[discotex]

Ouch! Sounds like you and the bike survived ok though.

Anyone keen to make copy of Keith Code's panic braking bike? I don't have the welding skills but I'd contribute to the cost of a cheap bike and bits if I get to ride it.

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/braking-bike.php

I'd be willing to bet that after an hour on that bike I could stop a whole heap quicker and safer - particularly in the wet.

I guess in the meantime I should get my butt to an RRRS course.

[Str8 Jacket]

Well sounds like you did learn something at least! Glad to hear that your OK mate! Keep at it, thngs will suddenly come together and get easier eventually....

[BigRed2007]

Practising is good but dont over do it as well, just understand what you need to go.

If you put yourself into a dangerous position purposely thats even worse man.

One thing i am learning and have been told to do is apply the back brake fractionally faster than the front to ensure you dont fly forward and that the bike doesnt slide. But yeah reduce ur speed before you come into the corner... its better to be slow than sliding...

if your out in west auckland bro send me a pm

[ambler]

Hmm. Practise emergency braking in a straight line only, and work up to the higher speeds gradually. Up to about 15km/h you can probably just jam on both brakes as hard as you like without locking, but not so at 30km/h. It's important to get a feel for when the wheel is about to lock because once it does, suddenly its like the front is on ice - by this I mean it is no longer restricted to travelling forwards, and it is really surprising how quickly it will go sideways on you. One of my scariest moments was when lane-splitting and this old man came walking out from between cars, as soon as the front wheel locked it immediately slid out from under me sideways as if someone was pulling it to the left.
It's possible to front brake heavily while turning, just don't expect to KEEP turning, you will need to give up on the corner and go straight, which is hopefully the lesser of two evils.
Although the weight of the bike shifts forward significantly, don't forget about the back brake! It might not have as much stopping power as the front, but when that time comes you will be glad of any little bit extra, especially if the front does lock for a moment and you need to back off, its good to have the back covering for that brief moment. You don't need to be quite so sensitive with the back brake either, its not quite such a problem if it locks - as long as going reasonably straight, I'd rather have a locked back brake than not use it.
FWIW the hardest part of the bike license test in Japan is the emergency braking, and like everything else they are extremely strict on it. You need to ride at 40km/h or more, and stop within 8 metres (14 when wet) without locking either wheel, on a 750cc bike that you have only ever ridden for a few minutes. This is such a tight requirement that you are allowed to forget everthing else, ie. stalling is ok, and putting your right foot on the ground is also ok (I think). It would probably be good to have something like this as part of the test in NZ too.

[Paul in NZ]

Stress less.... The only people who know where the edge really is are the ones that have gone over it occasionally...

[Crisis management]

Good on you for practicing! There's not many that do, and you certainly learn when you push it......

I'm always a fan of the best tyres I can get, they are the only thing stopping you hugging the ground and well worth the money.
I expect my tyres to slide gradually (under power or brakes) and to be capable enough to hook up again without any violent manouvers, you need feedback to be able to control.
Assuming your not a complete neanderthal and understand the concept of "feeling" the braking effect, you can modulate the braking at the point of lock-up and easily get the most braking effect possible.

Get some decent tyres and get back to practicing, don't worry about bike damage, it adds to street cred!

[Black Bandit]

Yeah... using your front brake while turning


Hmm. Practise emergency braking in a straight line only

Just to clarify, he was referring to separate incidents - hence the two lessons learned. Practicing emergency braking on the lean would be insane.

ambler - that Japanese license test sounds pretty tough.


I guess in the meantime I should get my butt to an RRRS course.
Yes, yes you should - I highly recommend this course, it will enlighten you plus it's hella fun hooning around a runway strip! :yes:

[ambler]

yes the JP test is way too hard, it's quite a medal of honor to have the 'big bike' endorsement on your license. Put it this way: even after 4 whole years of riding a 400, approx. 2 hours every day (my 1 hour commute) through rush hour Tokyo traffic, I still failed the test 6 times!! Only about 1 in 40 people manage to pass it the first time...

I forgot to add one of the good points of gradually working up to faster speeds when pracitising, is that you get the hang of braking harder as the speed reduces, so that when you get down to around 15km/h like I mentioned before, you can just clamp right down (depending on what bike of course). If you only practise from higher speeds, you tend to get in the habit of using a fairly similar strength of brake right to the end, when in fact for maximum effect you should be squeezing harder and harder as you slow down.

[90s]

Some general good riding ideas for braking:

1) in corners - countersteer instead of braking. Your bike can probably make the corner. If you believe it. Look through the corner and that's where you'll go. Look down you'll go down.
2) avoid the need to brake in corners - golden rule: slow in fast out*.
3) maybe don't practice braking in corners until you have really got corners and braking in every other condition totally sussed.

* beginners brake in a straight line only and don't nail it on the apex.
Experiened riders do the same.

You could also try the RRRS course for safe emergency braking practice.

[surfchick]

Hmm. Practise emergency braking in a straight line only, and work up to the higher speeds gradually. Up to about 15km/h you can probably just jam on both brakes as hard as you like without locking, but not so at 30km/h. It's important to get a feel for when the wheel is about to lock because once it does, suddenly its like the front is on ice - by this I mean it is no longer restricted to travelling forwards, and it is really surprising how quickly it will go sideways on you. One of my scariest moments was when lane-splitting and this old man came walking out from between cars, as soon as the front wheel locked it immediately slid out from under me sideways as if someone was pulling it to the left.
It's possible to front brake heavily while turning, just don't expect to KEEP turning, you will need to give up on the corner and go straight, which is hopefully the lesser of two evils....


oh yes - locking the front wheel is a sobre experience. Did it on the kawakawa bay run a few weeks back breaking into a perfectly fun corner that i knew well, what I didn't factor in was this light dusting of damp moss / leichin that hadn't dried on the road surface and up locked the front wheel breaking before the corner..started to slide so i let the break go and straightend out in the corner cause by now i was upright :( just eeked round without binning it over the bank. i can tell you i give oozing watery fern encrusted banks a careful stare-down now to see whether the road surface has been affected by water running out of the dirt and across the road surface... happens heaps on winter...:mellow:

[Black Bandit]

oh yes - locking the front wheel is a sobre experience. Did it on the kawakawa bay run a few weeks back breaking into a perfectly fun corner that i knew well, what I didn't factor in was this light dusting of damp moss / leichin that hadn't dried on the road surface and up locked the front wheel breaking before the corner..started to slide so i let the break go and straightend out in the corner cause by now i was upright :( just eeked round without binning it over the bank. i can tell you i give oozing watery fern encrusted banks a careful stare-down now to see whether the road surface has been affected by water running out of the dirt and across the road surface... happens heaps on winter...:mellow:

Been up Scenic Dr recently? It's a shocker for moss at the moment! Thought I'd go for a quick blat last weekend ... turned out not to be so quick as I woosed out at the sight of green roads.:innocent:

[Little Miss Trouble]

yup sounds like we both got off pretty lightly there. Mine happened when I ran wide taking a corner while learning counter-steering, saw the concrete island coming up fast, grabbed too much brake and it was all over!
On the plus side I think I've gotten alot better at countersteering since wednesday night, its easier to understand once you put it in a 'real' situation.

[Pwalo]

Just put it down to experience. The only way you'll get better is by riding (oh and thinking about riding, and then riding again).

Like everything when you start off it's all too easy to get sensory overload, so work up to things gradually. It's all too easy to cock things up if you're trying too hard (eg your counter steering). Just concentrate on one thing at a time and build up your skill level.

You can use your front brake in a turn, but it's only something you can do if you're very familar with your bike and the road you're on.

And finally don't practice your emergency braking on the road for the first few times. An empty parking area is a lot easier.

[klingon]

Ha! You're all wannabes! :second: I came off while practising my braking on one of the first Wednesday Night Mentor rides ages ago. In my case I made two newbie errors which combined to make a SPLAT!

1) Braked too hard on the back brake, making the back step out
2) Panicked and put my foot down instead of riding through it

Damage to bike: broken clutch lever
Damage to rider: bruised ankle
Damage to ego: priceless

[howdamnhard]

Thanks for the advise guys.Blackbird sent me a very good article on emergency braking.PM him if you would like to see it.I've learnt a few things,just don't want to go learning everything the hard way.:scooter:

[howdamnhard]

Ha! You're all wannabes! :second: I came off while practising my braking on one of the first Wednesday Night Mentor rides ages ago. In my case I made two newbie errors which combined to make a SPLAT!

1) Braked too hard on the back brake, making the back step out
2) Panicked and put my foot down instead of riding through it

Damage to bike: broken clutch lever
Damage to rider: bruised ankle
Damage to ego: priceless
Ye my prang was also at a Wednesday night mentor ride.Just to clarify I was practicing emergency braking in a safe enviroment in a straight line.My fault was not making allowance for the lack of weight transfer when not using back brakes.The supposed best order for emergency braking is:1 close throttle ,2 apply back brake , 3 clutch in and progressive front brake.If back brake locks up so what easy to control although preferable to not lock up anything.If front lock up goodbye unless you applying brake progressively in which you have time to release pressure.:yes:

[ambler]

clutch in?? apart from the fact that this will speed you up slightly - its an emergency aint it? stalling the bike is the least of your problems. if you really need to put these millisecond-fast actions in order, how about this:
1. release throttle
2. progressive brake front and rear

[swbarnett]

Tricky to emergency brake in a corner anyway.

The short answer to this is you can't. if you apply full front brake while leaning you'll lose it. Make sure you're following distance in traffic is greater around corners than it otherwise needs to be. That way you've got room to button off and let the engine slow you down if necessary - then you can straighten up and emergency brake in a straight line if you still have to.

Braking in a corner is possible (I do it all the time) but you need to know how much brake pressure your tyres can handle before losing grip. Not something to try until a ways down the road. just concentrate on straight-line braking for quite a while yet.

[ruphus]

Keep up the good work. It is far better to practice now at low speed, with factors that are in your control then having to give it a go in a real world situation, at speed where the out of control factors combine into an "oh shit" moment.

[Disco Dan]

Well tonight I was practicing emergency braking and managed to bin the bike.Luckily bike and myself escaped fairly unscathed,I'll know for sure tomorrow morning.Was locking up the rear wheel,tyre compound not the best but should have compensated, so it was suggested I only concentrate on front.Too aggressive,going to fast,too much front brake( same if not more than when using both brakes) and the next I know WAM I'm done and sliding foot stuck under bike with the sound of grating metal in my ears.:shit: :dodge: What I have learnt from this and the other occasion I've lost the front and dropped is this:1 PROGRESSIVE BRAKING IS GOOD.
2 DON'T USE FRONT BRAKE WHILST TURNING.
I 'm to inexperienced/ or slowed up to Detect the front washing out,the sudden change in horizon seems to be my first Que,therefore from now on I shall observe my two above rules with utmost care.


Ye my prang was also at a Wednesday night mentor ride.Just to clarify I was practicing emergency braking in a safe enviroment in a straight line.My fault was not making allowance for the lack of weight transfer when not using back brakes.The supposed best order for emergency braking is:1 close throttle ,2 apply back brake , 3 clutch in and progressive front brake.If back brake locks up so what easy to control although preferable to not lock up anything.If front lock up goodbye unless you applying brake progressively in which you have time to release pressure.:yes:


yup sounds like we both got off pretty lightly there. Mine happened when I ran wide taking a corner while learning counter-steering, saw the concrete island coming up fast, grabbed too much brake and it was all over!
On the plus side I think I've gotten alot better at countersteering since wednesday night, its easier to understand once you put it in a 'real' situation.

Im pleased you have learnt from your experience! It is suprising how hard you can actually brake if done correctly! As others have/will say... better to have it happen in a carpark than a car to pull out and you learn that in the middle of a busy intersection! :Punk:


Ha! You're all wannabes! :second: I came off while practising my braking on one of the first Wednesday Night Mentor rides ages ago. In my case I made two newbie errors which combined to make a SPLAT!

1) Braked too hard on the back brake, making the back step out
2) Panicked and put my foot down instead of riding through it

Damage to bike: broken clutch lever
Damage to rider: bruised ankle
Damage to ego: priceless

When you coming back? ;) :shutup:

[klingon]

When you coming back? ;) :shutup:

When I get my restricted licence and I'm allowed to ride on the motorway! ie Any minute now!

[FROSTY]

SAY howdamhard--Just a point I havent seen mentioned by anyone.
You "shouldn't" be able to overpower the front tyre on a ginny.
Forgetting what YOU did for a moment --Those late model ginnys are notorious for having shitty quality front tyres.
Ya might wantto get an experienced rider to try an emergency stop on your bike May IN THIS CASE be a problem with the bike

[howdamnhard]

I 'm used to using clutch and front brake together,and like to keep my options,i.e. not be left dead in the water with a stalled bike.If you practice it becomes reflex and thus no milliseconds are lost trying to think it through.:crazy:


clutch in?? apart from the fact that this will speed you up slightly - its an emergency aint it? stalling the bike is the least of your problems. if you really need to put these millisecond-fast actions in order, how about this:
1. release throttle
2. progressive brake front and rear

[awayatc]

Well tonight I was practicing emergency braking and managed to bin the bike.Luckily bike and myself escaped fairly unscathed,I'll know for sure tomorrow morning.Was locking up the rear wheel,tyre compound not the best but should have compensated, so it was suggested I only concentrate on front.Too aggressive,going to fast,too much front brake( same if not more than when using both brakes) and the next I know WAM I'm done and sliding foot stuck under bike with the sound of grating metal in my ears.:shit: :dodge: What I have learnt from this and the other occasion I've lost the front and dropped is this:1 PROGRESSIVE BRAKING IS GOOD.
2 DON'T USE FRONT BRAKE WHILST TURNING.
I 'm to inexperienced/ or slowed up to Detect the front washing out,the sudden change in horizon seems to be my first Que,therefore from now on I shall observe my two above rules with utmost care.

All well that ends well....:niceone: No substitute for experience, my 2 cts worth: For pure bike handling skills you can't beat trail/dirt riding....use any old bike a bit off roadish and all situations that will occur "in real life" happen in the sand and mud much more exaggarated, thus you get a much better feel for the bike in a softer environment without cars....( my son got his first little banger when he was 8, and has had a variety of dirtbikes since. He is 18 now but has amazing bike handling skills....on and off road)

Have a good new year, and be safe:mellow:

[howdamnhard]

I agree Awayatc,learning on the dirt is best.Unfortuneately one bike is all I can afford right now and finding a place to ride without pissing other people off would also probably be a problem.
Have a good year and be safe too.:niceone:



All well that ends well....:niceone: No substitute for experience, my 2 cts worth: For pure bike handling skills you can't beat trail/dirt riding....use any old bike a bit off roadish and all situations that will occur "in real life" happen in the sand and mud much more exaggarated, thus you get a much better feel for the bike in a softer environment without cars....( my son got his first little banger when he was 8, and has had a variety of dirtbikes since. He is 18 now but has amazing bike handling skills....on and off road)

Have a good new year, and be safe:mellow:

[TOTO]

Glad you are ok and learnt your lesson. Be safe.

[ital916]

Ouch hope you get better, I'm still learning to look through corners and to get line and speed right before i go for leans. It will be a long time before i can get some serious lean on but i'm not fussed. I find if i get my ass off the seat then you don't even need to lean much in the tight city corners :bleh:. Only time i've ever panic steered was when a corner with no posted speed limit tightened up instantly just had to tip it and go for gold, farking scary when the bike first leans over lots, feels like it's gonna fall over haha I think ill practise more, mmm practicing is fun though. Oh and had to pull an emergency break yesterday at sixty, a light pulled a quick change to a red when i thought it would be green since it just changed, had o jam on bother brakes but remembered the whole squeeze not grab, the front was allright the rear was squealing a little lol I stop, just, almost shat my pants. Lesson, when coming up to a stale light slow down!