Bain is being retried.

[Bloody Mad Woman (BMW)]

Waste of taxpayer's money either way.

[vifferman]

Waste of taxpayer's money either way.
Not for him, if he gets his name cleared.
If he is innocent, it gives him a chance to wipe things and maybe get compo for 12 years in prison.

[janno]

You're joking?!

Though perhaps a not guilty verdict will enable him to get squillions in compo like Arthur Allen Thomas? As opposed to nothing?

And perhaps it may be a good thing if the copper's incompetence and dishonesty gets shown up in public (though normally I think they are the good guys).

[Nasty]

Seems right as it is following the ruling from the Privy Council - question is how are they going to find an untiainted jury????

[Steam]

.. question is how are they going to find an untiainted jury????
And it's being held in Dunedin!! Everyone has an opinion there.

[Swoop]

Excellent!!!

A chance to prove the case with all the evidence laid out.

Just a shame it is not being tried in Auckland. I am on High Court jury duty (again)...

[oldrider]

I think he should be retried, after all there are five dead people, reason for death still not accounted for!

Did he do it? I don't know!

I now feel really sure that he is a person capable of doing it and staying the course to this stage of proceedings whereas before I thought he was a bit of a weakling.

He is one focused fellow in my opinion and bloody tough mentally. :yes: John.

PS: I don't think the Police looked far enough afield for the possibility of another perpetrator.
Maybe neither David or his father were the guilty party! (weird mob, those Bains)

[Steam]

...reason for death still not accounted for!


Bullets to the brain?:clap: :shutup:

[janno]

Did he do it? I don't know!

I now feel really sure that he is a person capable of doing it and staying the course to this stage of proceedings whereas before I thought he was a bit of a weakling.

He is one focused fellow in my opinion and bloody tough mentally. :yes: John.

Ditto that, stronger than I'd be I suspect.

[Jeremy]

Wouldn't it be much easier to find an untainted jury now?

I know people who are of jury service age, who simply cannot remember him. June 1994, I was 7 and I can only barely remember it being on tv for ages. And there's certainly people younger than me who end up on jury service.

Just move the trial to Auckland and it'd be very easy to find enough people. There's people only a year younger than me who can't remember Georgie Pie, and I'd say that was way more famous in New Zealand.

[Swoop]

Ditto that, stronger than I'd be I suspect.
Remember that your opinion is from what you have seen recently.
When he was before the courts all those years ago, he was a different person altogether.

[Scouse]

I still think he is Guilty I Have a problem beliveing that his father was willing to kill all the family exept for David without leaving a note to clear his son, if he belived that David was the only one that deserved to live why leave him exposed to a life senence without some form of letter that spelt out his reason for killing everyone except David?

[janno]

I was at Otago Uni when it all happened, and had seen him around. I lived in Dud for seven years, and plenty of people knew him, though not me.

My comment was based on the fact he has come out of prison looking reasonably normal, as opposed to bitter and twisted or a basket case. I think it would have taken strength to come through like that.

Though like you say, it's based on what you see on the telly, which is hardly realistic.

I feel for the poor bugger, anyway.

When he came out, my thoughts were mainly that he had grown from a gawky, geeky looking kid into an adult man.

[Steam]

I still think he is Guilty I Have a problem beliveing that his father was willing to kill all the family exept for David without leaving a note to clear his son, if he belived that David was the only one that deserved to live why leave him exposed to a life senence without some form of letter that spelt out his reason for killing everyone except David?

I fear you forget. He DID leave a note. It said "David, you were the only one who deserved to live."
Also, Robin was crazy at the time.

[peasea]

It's a waste of money if nothing else. Sure, he might like to clear his name but if he gets set up (don't put it past them, ask A. A. Thomas) he's up for another life sentence.

It's a nightmare for all concerned, make no mistake.

[peasea]

I fear you forget. He DID leave a note. It said "David, you were the only one who deserved to live."
Also, Robin was crazy at the time.

Yup, crazy 'bout his daughter!

[Deviant Esq]

I didn't expect they'd retry him personally, but there you go. I don't know whether he's guilty or not, but either way I don't think there's enough there to convict him. There's enough doubt and cloudiness either way that I doubt he'll be judged guilty. Which will of course give him grounds for compensation, which would be deserved. If not guilty this time and should have been the first time... 13 of potentially the best years of his life behind bars.

[Skyryder]

I think he should be retried, after all there are five dead people, reason for death still not accounted for!

Did he do it? I don't know!

I now feel really sure that he is a person capable of doing it and staying the course to this stage of proceedings whereas before I thought he was a bit of a weakling.

He is one focused fellow in my opinion and bloody tough mentally. :yes: John.

PS: I don't think the Police looked far enough afield for the possibility of another perpetrator.
Maybe neither David or his father were the guilty party! (weird mob, those Bains)


'Bout where I'm coming from with this OR I'd give Bain a 60/40 chance of being found innocent. Mind you Karam's conclusions will come under 'proper' scrutiny as only a trial is able of doing. The evidence that is the most 'telling' on this is just how reliable is the incest accusation.

I'm going to stick my neckout on this and predict a hung jury.


Skyryder

[peasea]

'Bout where I'm coming from with this OR I'd give Bain a 60/40 chance of being found innocent. Mind you Karam's conclusions will come under 'proper' scrutiny as only a trial is able of doing. The evidence that is the most 'telling' on this is just how reliable is the incest accusation.

I'm going to stick my neckout on this and predict a hung jury.


Skyryder

Better than a hung innocent man I suppose.

[Littleman]

If we are to believe anything the Herald/media say the Police would welcome the trial to be televised...

Wouldn't it be ironic if the media actually played a part in educating the public of the full facts rather than contributing to conspiracy theories of his innocence.

Bizarre concept I know.

Maybe then people may actually have a qualilfied opinion on this matter.

[Motig]

Guilty as Hell !! Amazing how having someone constantly drip feeding a biased view to the media can sway so many sheep.Only reason not to send him back to jail after hes found guilty again (although finding a jury that dont know anything about the Bain case in NZ would be an impossibility or are there 12 blind,deaf and dumb around?) would be he's basically done his time.

[janno]

I'm definitely open to the suggestion that if I was on the jury and heard all the evidence, I'd find him guilty as charged.

At the moment I'm in the not guilty camp, with both feet. Though as you say, it's a decision based on what the media has reported.

I'm a journalist, so I know exactly the mentality behind the scenes in reporting a case like this. Which is why I got out of working in hard news (ie newspapers) and took the soft cock option of writing features about stuff I like.

I was very uncomfortable about how much power a journalist has to sway the public opinion, and how often it gets abused in pushing one particular person's view. I've done it myself, though I thought I was being unbiased at the time. When I realised what I was really lusting after - the front page lead, I didn't give a flying eff about the family involved - I quit writing breaking news. It's horrible to realise what you are capable of sometimes, when you'd always thought you wouldn't stoop so low . . .

And this was a relatively minor matter in a smallish town. Imagine the buzz the journo's get in a nationally breaking story. You can't tell me there's no egos involved. . .

[Bloody Mad Woman (BMW)]

I didn't expect they'd retry him personally, but there you go. I don't know whether he's guilty or not, but either way I don't think there's enough there to convict him. There's enough doubt and cloudiness either way that I doubt he'll be judged guilty. Which will of course give him grounds for compensation, which would be deserved. If not guilty this time and should have been the first time... 13 of potentially the best years of his life behind bars.

Agree - jury has to be "beyond reasonable doubt".

[Winston001]

I was a bit surprised at the announcement but mainly because expecting witnesses to remember events 12 - 14 years ago is a hard ask.

Nevertheless there are 5 dead people. Do we just give up? Sorry about your murder but its all too hard.......

I know very little about the case but I find it very hard to believe that Robin Bain would commit murder......with a full bladder. Hell, I don't even go to the dentist without having a leak first. :yes:

Allegedy the ambu officer examined David in the house and found normal pulse, blood pressure etc, while David was doing his freakout. Odd.

But of course the above might be exaggerated or just plain untrue. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Swoop]

... because of a depressed dairy that was found.
Can you get lotto tickets at this dairy, or just milk and squishees?
Thank you, come again!

[Winston001]

......a not guilty verdict will enable him to get squillions in compo like Arthur Allen Thomas?

Sorry Jano but you've rung an irritating bell with me.

Arthur Allan Thomas was convicted of murdering the Crewes - he has never been found "Not Guilty". He was pardoned after the 1980 Royal Commission found there were some real questions about the evidence. A pardon (a very rare beast) was the most simple solution for the government.

So Arthur got away with it. And $1 million as well.

The theory developed by Pat Booth - and his tenacity is to be admired - was that a police detective dropped .22 shell casings outside the house window.

That story has gained currency within NZ to the point that 99% of people believe it. However the truth is - it was a theory. It has never been proved that any such seeding of evidence actually occurred. The police officer concerned could never clear his name and eventually died.

The significance of all of this is the emergence of a belief by members of the public that the police fabricate evidence. That suspicion arose and expanded directly from Pat Booth's theory. And the furore over David Bain, Scott Watson etc etc persists today.

[ali]

I thought it interesting, that though the privy council suggested that convicting Bain on the evidence originally provided was dangerous, they still suggested he remain in jail till a decision was made as to a retrial.

Does this mean they think he is guilty ?

He looks and sounds like a very nice man, which perhaps now affects our judgement ( but then Mark Lundy looked like a loving father too)

[janno]

Sorry Jano but you've rung an irritating bell with me.



No worries Winston, I like discussing all sorts of things with all sorts of people. I'm a firm believer of not necessarily agreeing with someone, but always agreeing with their right to have that opinion.

If someone disagrees with me, I don't take it as a personal insult. It's just a difference of opinion. The world won't end.
:yes:

[janno]

(but then Mark Lundy looked like a loving father too)

EEEwwwww! No he didn't!!

I had friends working in the sex industry in Palmy who'd "had" him as a client. All the girls really hated him but couldn't quite say why.

They used to draw straws as to who would go through with him!!

That's pretty bad if even the money wasn't enough.

[oldrider]

EEEwwwww! No he didn't!!

I had friends working in the sex industry in Palmy who'd "had" him as a client. All the girls really hated him but couldn't quite say why.

They used to draw straws as to who would go through with him!!

That's pretty bad if even the money wasn't enough.

All my instincts and the evidence tell me Lundy was guilty as sin.

Too much shoddy police work involved with Bain case.

That association with drama has always bothered me but I thought Bain was weak and would crack over time, one way or the other!

I see in him now just the strength of character to carry it off, he looks like a cat with cream all round his mouth!

A new trial is an absolute must but did the police use too small a net? :shutup: John.

[ynot slow]

my mind is unsure,he's come out of prison mentally strong,so if guilty of crimes is a good player,i.e unemotive.my thoughts are his dad did kill all them then david came home and shot his dad in a fit of rage,way outer left field but stranger things have happened.as said if you got a younger jury say maybe 20-28 you may get unbiased but then it's been in news,like to see the cops evidence now and cross examined.

[Mom]

Seems right as it is following the ruling from the Privy Council - question is how are they going to find an untiainted jury????

I agree there are so many unanswered questions, at least there is an outside chance that all eidence will be made available to a jury this time, as to the jury???????


Excellent!!!

A chance to prove the case with all the evidence laid out.

Just a shame it is not being tried in Auckland. I am on High Court jury duty (again)...


Yepper, to find an unbiased jury of his peers will be the difficult thing, mind you as someone has said here tonight, there are people that really have no preconceived ideas regarding this...maybe this time he can put this matter to bed.

[Hitcher]

Like?

Start by buying a copy of Joe Karam's book on the case. Or start here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bain. Wikipedia is your friend.

[spudchucka]

Though perhaps a not guilty verdict will enable him to get squillions in compo like Arthur Allen Thomas? As opposed to nothing?

No chance, even if found not guilty at the re-trial.

Thomas received a pardon, not a not guilty verdict, that's the difference.

[spudchucka]

Start by buying a copy of Joe Karam's book on the case. Or start here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bain. Wikipedia is your friend.

Read the McNeish book too.

http://www.crime.co.nz/c-files.asp?ID=112
http://www.crime.co.nz/c-files.asp?ID=114

[oldrider]

Like?

I wrote a reply and then decided to delete it.

The new trial will bring an outcome that right or wrong, the country will just have to live with it.

I am absolutely in favour of the new trial.

I have got some questions about the new trial and today's law and penalties.

Bearing in mind that the Privy Counsel said it was a miscarriage of justice and quashed the conviction but did not judge him as not guilty as charged.

(IE:wipe the slate and start again, if it is in the best interests of New Zealand)

Will the "new" trial be committed under the law at the time of the crime or under the law and penalties of today?

For five murders, Bain may have been better to stay where he was, that is if he is guilty and he is the only one who knows the answer to that, if he is!

If he is not guilty, I do not believe the evidence points to Bain's father, in which case there must be some one else out there, (enjoying life) that the police did not even look at because they were too focused on nailing Bain!

Personally I have no idea if Bain is guilty or not but if it were me, I would still be a bit more concerned about the loss of my entire family than he appears to be, unless of course I "was" the perpetrator all along and obviously knew that answer! :shit: John.

[MSTRS]

Personally I have no idea if Bain is guilty or not but if it were me, I would still be a bit more concerned about the loss of my entire family than he appears to be, unless of course I "was" the perpetrator all along and obviously knew that answer! :shit: John.

He has had 14 years to come to terms with the murders. Whether he did them or not, he is hardly likely to be wearing his emotions on his sleeve after all that time.

[Maha]

He has had 14 years to come to terms with the murders. Whether he did them or not, he is hardly likely to be wearing his emotions on his sleeve after all that time.


Common belief in this house that D Bain did not kill his whole family...just his ole' man....:yes:
Its the wierdest feeling being on a Jury and listening to a case unfold...reasonable doubt huh?....:yes:

[MSTRS]

Common belief in this house that D Bain did not kill his whole family...just his ole' man....:yes:
Its the wierdest feeling being on a Jury and listening to a case unfold...reasonable doubt huh?....:yes:

It's a (good) theory.
Know what you mean...only did one time on jury duty. No doubt in that case - the guy had GUILTY tattooed across his forehead (not literally). 4 f'ken days - what a waste of everybody's time that was.
These days I'm self-employed with no staff - easy out from every call up.

[Hitcher]

David Bain's father is not on trial. All the prosecution has to do is to prove beyond reasonable doubt that David Bain committed the crimes of which he is accused. Many of us will be watching with intense interest next year to see if a jury is capable of making a decision.

[Patrick]

Start by buying a copy of Joe Karam's book on the case. Or start here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bain. Wikipedia is your friend.

Wouldn't waste my money on his "Theories"

[Hitcher]

Wouldn't waste my money on his "Theories"

You don't have to agree with them. They represent one interpretation of what may have happened in this case. If you're not interested in forming a balanced view, that's quite OK. Hopefully you won't be selected for the jury next year.

[Patrick]

He has had 14 years to come to terms with the murders. Whether he did them or not, he is hardly likely to be wearing his emotions on his sleeve after all that time.

Other than the scene when he was being carried to the Ambulance, what emotion has he shown since??? Other than the smile on his release recently....

[MSTRS]

Other than the scene when he was being carried to the Ambulance, what emotion has he shown since??? Other than the smile on his release recently....

That's not exactly fair, is it? His face was hardly shown after the arrest...and guilty or not, I'll guarantee that you would smile too if it was you being released....

[Swoop]

Hopefully you won't be selected for the jury next year.
Police do not "qualify", due to their profession, for jury service.

[Patrick]

Read the McNeish book too.

http://www.crime.co.nz/c-files.asp?ID=112
http://www.crime.co.nz/c-files.asp?ID=114

There was another fine piece of journalism in the Listener from some time ago, (can't recall her name, has the same name as Peter JACKSONS Mrs... and not Mrs JACKSON either!!!) where she slams KARAMS interviewing methods... if Police used the "methods" he was using, the "evidence" obtained was clearly tainted, forced and unworthy.

[Patrick]

That's not exactly fair, is it? His face was hardly shown after the arrest...and guilty or not, I'll guarantee that you would smile too if it was you being released....

Yep, coz 60% of those surveyed think a mass murderer is innocent....

[MSTRS]

'Funny' how it is 'fine journalism' when an article purports to find Bain guilty....

[MSTRS]

Yep, coz 60% of those surveyed think a mass murderer is innocent....

What's that got to do with Bain showing, or not, emotion?

[Patrick]

You don't have to agree with them. They represent one interpretation of what may have happened in this case. If you're not interested in forming a balanced view, that's quite OK. Hopefully you won't be selected for the jury next year.

I deal with "facts," not theories......

Have seen the "theories" and have a very balanced view, which is clear enough now, thanks....

Can't be on a jury, ever... Yay!!!

[Patrick]

'Funny' how it is 'fine journalism' when an article purports to find Bain guilty....

No, but it is worth a read.... where theories are raised and then challenged by the facts... huge difference.

[Patrick]

What's that got to do with Bain showing, or not, emotion?

Coz he and Karam have pulled the wool over the sheeps eyes...

[Winston001]

I am absolutely in favour of the new trial.

I have got some questions about the new trial and today's law and penalties.

Will the "new" trial be committed under the law at the time of the crime or under the law and penalties of today?

If he is not guilty, I do not believe the evidence points to Bain's father, in which case there must be some one else out there, (enjoying life) that the police did not even look at because they were too focused on nailing Bain!


He'll be tried under the law as it was at the time of the murders - and face the related penalties. Essentially the charges still lie against him, he is just out on bail.

I don't know enough about it but the police concluded at an early point that only David or Robin committed the murders. They will have forensic reasons for that. Must admit I've always wondered why a stranger was dismissed as a suspect. Maybe we'll hear why.

[Hitcher]

Yep, coz 60% of those surveyed think a mass murderer is innocent....

An alleged mass murderer. The Privy Council quashed his conviction. Remember that?

[MSTRS]

Coz he and Karam have pulled the wool over the sheeps eyes...

You are calling the (nominally) highest court in the world 'sheep'? Wouldn't want to be in your shoes if they find out who you are...

[Hitcher]

He'll be tried under the law as it was at the time of the murders.

Presumable this means a unanimous jury decision, rather than a majority one?

[Swoop]

Must admit I've always wondered why a stranger was dismissed as a suspect. Maybe we'll hear why.
Perhaps a "grassy knoll"?

The Bain household did appear to be a book repository...

[Winston001]

I agree there are so many unanswered questions, at least there is an outside chance that all evidence will be made available to a jury this time???????


Good point Mom. Here we have the disconnect between talkback radio, conspiracy theorists, smoko-room gossip and actual evidence. The rules regarding what evidence is actually heard in Court are strict. This is to protect the accused - he only has to face direct facts, not suggestions, possibilities or gossip.

So for example if you think someone will get in the witness box and say Laniet was being abused by Robin...........think again. That would be hearsay - unless there is something dramatic we don't know about. If David's defence tries this, he lays himself open to attack on his personal character.

And what if David doesn't give evidence? He cannot be compelled to. Where does that leave Joe Karram and the rest of us?

[Patrick]

An alleged mass murderer. The Privy Council quashed his conviction. Remember that?

and they also said he should remain in prison until the decision is made for a retrial... remember that one????


You are calling the (nominally) highest court in the world 'sheep'? Wouldn't want to be in your shoes if they find out who you are...

No, not the court at all... see just above (they can see it for what it is, but it is not their call... they suggested a retrial..) just the general McNair Survey mob.

I'm not at all hard to find.....

[MSTRS]

.

I'm not at all hard to find.....

Oh, so you're the one with the placard saying 'He's guilty'...

[Patrick]

And what if David doesn't give evidence? He cannot be compelled to. Where does that leave Joe Karram and the rest of us?

Quite right... he doesn't have to. That has always been a problem with some who might think: "But for an innocent man, he doesn't have much to say for himself?"

The facts will sort themselves out, but hey, juries are fickle things... whatever the result, there will always be some who will say it is wrong....

[Patrick]

Oh, so you're the one with the placard saying 'He's guilty'...

Mine says "David BAIN is guilty..."

[MSTRS]

... whatever the result, there will always be some who will say it is wrong....

Now aint that the truth. And will there be an appeal from the aggrieved party, whichever side it is on?

[Grahameeboy]

The only people who know the truth are the dead family.

Who knows whether he is guilty or not. Seems like a nice bloke and on balance of probability and support he may well be innocent......on the other hand he could be very clever.....why did Father let David Bain live, why not someone else.

Maybe the Police did balls up the investigation etc.....it was a long time ago and no offence to the Police in NZ but at the time their exposure to murder was probably on a small scale compared to say the UK......look at that UK guy who was murdered whilst campervanning with his girlfriend and the Police did not handle well.....

So many curve balls eh

[MSTRS]

Mine says "David BAIN is guilty..."

Nice to know that the NZ public can expect police to have an open mind about these things...:Pokey:

[Maha]

The only people who know the truth are the dead family.


Wouldnt be so sure of that Grahame, can it possible that the person who killed the family was then killed by surviving memeber?....he was never charged with that senario

[Grahameeboy]

Wouldnt be so sure of that Grahame, can it possible that the person who killed the family was then killed by surviving memeber?....he was never charged with that senario

Yep go for that...you knew what I meant..bling to you....

[The Stranger]

I still think he is Guilty I Have a problem beliveing that his father was willing to kill all the family exept for David without leaving a note to clear his son, if he belived that David was the only one that deserved to live why leave him exposed to a life senence without some form of letter that spelt out his reason for killing everyone except David?


Because he didn't have the benefit of hindsight?

[Grahameeboy]

Nice to know that the NZ public can expect police to have an open mind about these things...:Pokey:

Just like the NZ Public have open minds you mean.......:yes:

[onearmedbandit]

Dynamytus50, spudchucka, and Patrick. You 3 share, by all accounts, the same opinion regarding David Bain's guilt. Yet the Privy Council quashed his conviction and ordered a retrial. So, without disclosing anything in particular, are you all fully up to speed with all the facts pertaining to the case, maybe even information that didn't make it to the Privy Council? I'm honestly interested.

Just you three in the past have been critical of people jumping to conclusions without all the information.

[Hitcher]

and they also said he should remain in prison until the decision is made for a retrial... remember that one????

Yes. It still doesn't change that fact that he is now an alleged murderer.

[Grahameeboy]

Just a comparison...watched a doco which questioned the OJ case. They interviewed PI's etc and after watching it I was not so sure OJ was guilty............a lot of question marks...........

This is the problem with the Bain case I guess...too much has been looked at, twisted over the years....

[janno]

This is one jury which I'd be interested in being on.

Although don't you get paid about five eighths of f#ck all per day?

[SPman]

"But for an innocent man, he doesn't have much to say for himself?" So - why should he. Everyone acts differently and not necessarily by TV drama show norms. Lindy Chamberlain also, did not act according to "accepted" dramatic norms and it stuffed her, first time around. Initial impressions according to emotion shown or not, can be highly deceptive - either way. This time around it won’t just be Bain on trial, it will be the NZ justice system. The system has to prove that it can get it right, because, currently by recharging David Bain it looks like it is only acting to protect its authority. It would be nice if egos were laid aside in this case and all facts were addressed and assessed. It probably won't happen - it never does. Like all trials this visible, it often becomes a pissing contest between the police and the defence and truth seldom gets a look in.
Personally I have no idea if Bain is guilty or not but if it were me, I would still be a bit more concerned about the loss of my entire family than he appears to be, unless of course I "was" the perpetrator all along and obviously knew that answer! John.Perhaps the family environment was so toxic, that, regardless of how it happened, after the initial shock (or not) he's glad to be out of it all. He's had plenty of time in prison to come to terms with it all if he is innocent.I, likewise, have no idea if he is guilty or not, these days. I think, like a lot of these cases, the police handling needs to be scrupulously up front and honest. If there is the slightest shred of doubt about anything, whether they are right or wrong, they will always be perceived as the bastards trying to stitch up an innocent man for their own ends. It's going to be an interesting media circus.

[MSTRS]

Dynamytus50, spudchucka, and Patrick. You 3 share, by all accounts, the same opinion regarding David Bain's guilt. ....

The party line? Or evidence that has never made it's way into the public arena (not likely - it would have been used to prosecute originally, and if unused it must be dodgy)?
There may well be cops on this site who are 'undeclared' and who espouse Bain's innocence?

[Patrick]

Nice to know that the NZ public can expect police to have an open mind about these things...:Pokey:

Been there, did that, guilty at the High Court, still at the Appeal Court, Privvy Council says there is more now that the jury needs to look at, is all... I am as open as an open book thing...

[Patrick]

Wouldnt be so sure of that Grahame, can it possible that the person who killed the family was then killed by surviving memeber?....he was never charged with that senario

Still one big thing wrong there... dad still kills four without having a nervy pee??????????????????????? no blood on dad at all, then David tops him... Hmmmmm....TUI.... TUI....

[Patrick]

Dynamytus50, spudchucka, and Patrick. You 3 share, by all accounts, the same opinion regarding David Bain's guilt. Yet the Privy Council quashed his conviction and ordered a retrial. So, without disclosing anything in particular, are you all fully up to speed with all the facts pertaining to the case, maybe even information that didn't make it to the Privy Council? I'm honestly interested.

Just you three in the past have been critical of people jumping to conclusions without all the information.

How dare you jump to such conclusions!!!:bleh: :niceone:

Had an interest in this, followed the trial and studied material relating to this for various things... just came to what I call my logical conclusion.

Lets leave it and let the retrial do its thing.

[MSTRS]

Been there, did that, guilty at the High Court, still at the Appeal Court, Privvy Council says there is more now that the jury needs to look at, is all... I am as open as an open book thing...

Perhaps this trial will be fair, in that all scenarios and evidence etc will be available to the jury. We live in hope.
As for the 'open book' thingy...that is always a worry when one of your lot has one on the side of the road:dodge:

[ali]

EEEwwwww! No he didn't!!

I had friends working in the sex industry in Palmy who'd "had" him as a client. All the girls really hated him but couldn't quite say why.

They used to draw straws as to who would go through with him!!

That's pretty bad if even the money wasn't enough.e

Janno, my wife has the same opinion as you.

We are all now aware of Lundys like of visiting prostitutes and that he is a convicted murderer, does this alter our perception of his looks ? I thought he looked " normal" prior to his arrest.

It is evident from the debate in this forum, that opinion is divided in the community as to David Bains guilt or innocence ( as it should be, because none of us has sat through trials and heard ALL the evidence).

This is why I think there must be a " courtroom trial " as opposed to one carried out in the media.

[janno]

e

Janno, my wife has the same opinion as you.

We are all now aware of Lundys like of visiting prostitutes and that he is a convicted murderer, does this alter our perception of his looks ? I thought he looked " normal" prior to his arrest.

.

I agree with you - trial by media is a toxic and dangerous thing. Can switch from justice to witch hunt in a heartbeat.

but as soon as I first saw a pic of lundy I thought "what a creep", then found out details from my friends later. I think women often have more ability to spot something a bit "off" with a person than men. Probably to do with guarding the cave while the lads were out killing mastodons.:yes:

[spudchucka]

Other than the scene when he was being carried to the Ambulance, what emotion has he shown since??? Other than the smile on his release recently....

A smile that suggests "I just got away with murder"?

[spudchucka]

There was another fine piece of journalism in the Listener from some time ago, (can't recall her name, has the same name as Peter JACKSONS Mrs... and not Mrs JACKSON either!!!) where she slams KARAMS interviewing methods... if Police used the "methods" he was using, the "evidence" obtained was clearly tainted, forced and unworthy.

North & South covered it recently too, well worth a read if you see it lying around anywhere.

[onearmedbandit]

12yrs jail is getting away with something?

[spudchucka]

Nice to know that the NZ public can expect police to have an open mind about these things...:Pokey:

He's still allowed his opinion. He isn't running the trial.

[spudchucka]

Dynamytus50, spudchucka, and Patrick. You 3 share, by all accounts, the same opinion regarding David Bain's guilt. Yet the Privy Council quashed his conviction and ordered a retrial. So, without disclosing anything in particular, are you all fully up to speed with all the facts pertaining to the case, maybe even information that didn't make it to the Privy Council? I'm honestly interested.

Just you three in the past have been critical of people jumping to conclusions without all the information.

To have all the information I'd have to have the transcripts of all the court hearings, so the answer to that is no.

Karam has never presented anything that has made me think for a moment that he is innocent, there is just too much that points to David.

However, I have always felt that there were issues that justified a re-trial years ago, which would have, in my opinion, resulted in another guilty verdict and would have avoided making him the celebrity that he is today.

[onearmedbandit]

Thanks for your honesty SC and Patrick. It appears you are human after all! :Pokey: :Police:

[spudchucka]

Perhaps this trial will be fair,

Fair? That's a pretty subjective thing to try and measure, which is why Judges get paid the big bucks. It will however be the most scrutinised trial in NZ history.

[ynot slow]

Watching news tonight and watching people on tv fron Dunedin,i got the impression a jury would be easy to find.Most people had an open mind on the upcoming trial.The only ones convinced he would not have a jury unbiased was his ''support'' crew.As has been said prior someone killed 5 people,and if police left out evidence at the trials,this will hopefully be put right via trial,not by media but judicial.

[Winston001]

Maybe the Police did balls up the investigation etc.....it was a long time ago and no offence to the Police in NZ but at the time their exposure to murder was probably on a small scale compared to say the UK......l

Two words Graham, ok, three: Aramoana. David Gray. The Dunedin police had plenty of up close and personal experience of mass murder.


ook at that UK guy who was murdered whilst campervanning with his girlfriend and the Police did not handle well.....


Not sure what you mean but the guy convicted just lost his last appeal yesterday.

[candor]

Familiarity does breed liking. Gradually over time Bains groupies and his good way of playing media including co-opting an allblack (what better) got me to thinking he could be innocent.

Everyone can relate to how awful it would be to be falsely accused. Everyone has a tendency to seek out the best quialities in people and often to deny the bad. We like to like the human race - to think we're all nice like us.

This is a known tendency of "normals" that psychopathic machines like to exploit. It was clear listening to Bains frequent references to his fan mail that he got great "narcissistic" kicks ie ego boosts, out of it.

But the facts are pretty overwhealming of his guilt I've just concluded - if you can just divorce your emotions and look at it quite scientifically. I've concluded that after a mental effort to shut down my emotions and tendency to give people the benefirt of the doubt.

Full bladder of victim / potential other killer, angle of gun impossible for suicide, discussion D Bain had with friend shortly before events re stress over family situation and feeling it would all end badly. He talked of his lack of human attachments (possibly reflecting psychopathy as its a trait). And didm't he also only hold the key for the gun storage place (from memory).

Bains lack of memory at the critical time - as a psyc nurse I know trauma victims remember in great detail usually to the point of hard to shake flashbacks (that would be normal not "amnesia" tho its not imposs).

David also put his jersey in the washing machine - as if that is something you'd be worried about or even up to in a state of panic. But he wasn't as his normal recordings showed - psychopaths do not get excited under stress... And the reference to him on the computer, just too tidy.

Bain fits the age group for psycho killers better - they peak in early thirties. Very rare in the forensics wards I worked in to see one of Dads age.

I think a computer brain that only works on evidence and probabilities would find him guilty. Or at least a co-offender with Dad. Much as I'd like to think he is innocent. His white middle class status has been to his advantage too, but as Celia Lashlie (prison boss) says - the blonde jo blows are the ones to watch in the current generation.

If he was Maori with tatts I doubt this thread would exist. It maybe exists because typical defense case "red herrings" have been elevated by Karam and accepted as worth considering by a foreign Court. Maybe if there was sex abuse it did not stop with the daughter....

theres a good motive to shoot someone or some hippocrit as they pray....

It could not have been a stranger due to the computer message - was a domestic. I would be interested to know how Bain came off in any psychological assessments - they had time to develop a good picture of his personality inside.

[scumdog]

No real comment here but I await the revisiting of the case along with included 'new' evidence.

When you stack up the present lot of evidence I feel there's too much stacked on the "Davids guilty" list and not enough on the 'Davis innocent' list

[Grahameeboy]

Two words Graham, ok, three: Aramoana. David Gray. The Dunedin police had plenty of up close and personal experience of mass murder.

Not familiar with that case but just googled and that was a mass murder plus he shot himself so case ended wheeras in the Bain case an investigation was carried out so a bit different......

Not sure what you mean but the guy convicted just lost his last appeal yesterday.

I was referring to the way they treated the girlfriend but agree they got the guy in the end...............


..............

[imdying]

'Can they find a fair jury' is a bit of a loaded statement. The counsel for both sides work hard to load the jury with people they think will be beneficial for their side anyway... out of the 200 people called for jury duty in this trial, they'll be doing their best to manipulate the jury by trying to get the 12 that they think will help them win anyway! I guess they should be looking for intelligent people with sufficient curiousity to actually digest all the facts they're given, depends if that fits their purposes though.

[mbazza]

A) Who says it's being held in Dunners?
B) People in wellytown don't have opinions?

That's an odd thought!

[Patrick]

North & South covered it recently too, well worth a read if you see it lying around anywhere.

That might in fact be the one I was refering to....