Criticisms of CYPS?

[Winston001]

I didn't want to mess with Sarge's thread. I couldn't help noticing a number of people making bitter comments about CYPS.

The Childrens and Young Persons Service (now called Children Youth and Family) exists to investigate and protect children from abuse, abandonment, and wilful neglect. It is staffed by career social workers and liases closely with the police.

Now for some reason many people have a negative view of CYPS. The reasons are easy enough. Occasionally they get it wrong - eg. removing a child who isn't in danger. There are even a few extreme cases where CYPS-approved foster parents have themselves been abusive.

However in my opinion these social workers are heros. They do a damned difficult and dangerous job. How many here would do it? I wouldn't.

If you work for CYPS you have to make judgement calls every day affecting families lives, and being human, mistakes can happen. A child left in a bad place, another removed from loving parents who made a single mistake. Awful I know.

These people are pilloried in the media without any intelligent enquiry as to why mistakes happen. What do they face every day and the realities of the work?

We don't have enough social workers and given the criticism of them by journalists and politicians, who'd want to be one? Fine............but who do you call about the kids down the road sitting waiting in the pub carpark?

[janno]

Had a friend who worked for that crowd. Went in bright eyed and bushy tailed, got spat out the other end, jaded and cynical.

The usual story - pay peanuts, get monkeys.

On top of that, ludicrous amounts of utterly meaningless paperwork, too much power in the hands of too few with a personal agenda to push, and everyone suffering burnout from a workload you wouldn't believe.

Apparently they get a lot of truely committed and caring individuals working for them with a genuine desire to make a difference, but in the end the majority get ground down by it all.

So the ones that are left are either due for sainthood fairly soon because they have stuck it out, or else shouldn't be in the job at all but are merely because they can stick it out.

Plus dealing with some pretty horrific families tends to make you look twice at everybody, she said.

I'd hate that job. I wonder if you raised the rates of pay by, say $20k per annum, if that would change things for the better?

[Winston001]

Well said Janno, that is exactly as I undertand it too. The paperwork is cya necessary because they are dealing with people's lives and rights. Can't be avoided in our modern age of multi-reporting, transparency, proveable outcomes, etc :sick: :sick:

For there to be a change? IMHO:

1. A complete sea change in the public perception of social work. If it looks like a valued career, then young people will be attracted.

2. Pay plenty, say senior teacher rates. Money is only part of it but it helps.

[MSTRS]

My only first hand dealing with CYPS/CYF was as the parent of a kid who was so far from reality in how he conducted himself it beggared belief, yet to them he was a poor innocent being abused by an uncaring adult. He was given a pat on the back and I was shafted. He only lived with us because he was abused by his mother (according to him). His problem was he didn't like rules. The other parent in the house and the other 5 children were ignored by them. Guess we were lucky the whole lot weren't removed...
I have no doubt that some of them do good work, but as an organisation, I have no respect for any of them. Nor would I trust any of them as far as I could throw them.

[deanohit]

However in my opinion these social workers are heros. They do a damned difficult and dangerous job. How many here would do it? I wouldn't.

Yea,I've heard some shockers,but they helped my family for the better.We had an abusive step dad,an while I have no problem with a smack,I draw the line at fists,kicks and bats an things.My mum wasnt home much and as a result didnt know what was going on.In the end I moved out to live with some close friends and their kids at 13.My brother on the other hand wasnt so lucky.It wasnt until he was 15 that he was able to get out with the help of cyfs and live some friends of his.All this time our stepdad was pulling a cover over my mums eyes and covering his ass. Cyfs were very helpful throughout this ordeal (more than the police:2guns: :Police: ) and were brilliant in helping my brother.

[Hitcher]

Organisations like CYF are, or should be, the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, if a "healthy" society is doing its job. Expecting CYF to come running every time there is some instance of abuse or sub-optimal family circumstances is an unrealistic expectation. As is blaming CYF for the carnage they have to deal with on a daily basis and which, in fact, overwhelms their ability to make sense of it.

Changing this epidemic isn't CYF's responsibility. And, in typical Catch 22 mode, their ability to attract and retain competent, dedicated and motivated staff will not be enhanced until prospective social workers believe they can contribute in a manner that actually makes a difference.

This is about "us" not "them".

[JimO]

well cyfs are going to get a lot busyer as the anti smacking thing kicks in with people dobbing in the neighbours and kids dobbing in the parents and kids still being beaten to death by the bumholes of society (another one on the news tonight)

[Grahameeboy]

well cyfs are going to get a lot busyer as the anti smacking thing kicks in with people dobbing in the neighbours and kids dobbing in the parents and kids still being beaten to death by the bumholes of society (another one on the news tonight)

Well that is what happens with change I guess......I am sure things will settle and at end of day it cannot protect all kids..

[kro]

No sorry, all govt depts have to be perfect, especially the cops, whom the media seem to be doing their level best to discredit currently.

Consistency is not an option, it's perfect or nothing. :brick:

[Hitcher]

and at end of day it cannot protect all kids..

"It" in this context being?

[Grahameeboy]

"It" in this context being?

I knew you would pick me up on that...IT = Anti Smacking Law / CYPS.....sorry my lazy englander...

[NighthawkNZ]

Occasionally they get it wrong - eg. removing a child who isn't in danger. I won't say much... but the dealings my friends have had with CYPS... well lets say they all need to be shot, i am not happy with them, and my friends are most definately not... (but I will say this I only have had any dealings with the CYPS from Ashburton)

They have changed their story to suite there needs, they have lied, and lied in court under oath.

And from what I hear there are many similar cases in the area... someone with too much power, and doesn't know the what they are doing...

[Grahameeboy]

No sorry, all govt depts have to be perfect, especially the cops, whom the media seem to be doing their level best to discredit currently.

Consistency is not an option, it's perfect or nothing. :brick:

Sorry, at end of day these depts are run by people like you and me, doing a job and you cannot expect perfection.....surely imperfections are better than nothing because then the perfect parts will not happen.....

[Hitcher]

It's not CYF's role to police/enforce the anti-smacking law.

I hate dumb laws where the law-makers feel compelled to "do something" for political reasons, without thinking through what may or may not be involved from a compliance and enforcement point of view. Like micro-chipping dogs and other recent "dangerous" dog regulations. Just plain dumb laws.

[JimO]

my staffi cross has a microchip,,,wont stop him biting you though

[Albino]

It's not CYF's role to police/enforce the anti-smacking law.

I hate dumb laws where the law-makers feel compelled to "do something" for political reasons, without thinking through what may or may not be involved from a compliance and enforcement point of view. Like micro-chipping dogs and other recent "dangerous" dog regulations. Just plain dumb laws.

Like removing my right to eat real bread because some pregnant women aren't getting enough folic acid. Hello? Supplements?

umm...cyf's - it may not be their role to police, but it will become it. Smacking after all is child abuse.

[Str8 Jacket]

The Childrens and Young Persons Service (now called Children Youth and Family) exists to investigate and protect children from abuse, abandonment, and wilful neglect. It is staffed by career social workers and liases closely with the police.

Now for some reason many people have a negative view of CYPS. The reasons are easy enough. Occasionally they get it wrong - eg. removing a child who isn't in danger. There are even a few extreme cases where CYPS-approved foster parents have themselves been abusive.



Oh man, I was gonna stay outta this!... I was removed from my parents at the age of 10. I had been through some serious shit that my parents werent reallyg to blame for.
I started flatting at the age of 14 and was seriously fucked up. Im lucky that I had decided to "become someone" and had sorted interviews and had had a haircut and WINZ got me a job interview. I became a trainee chef. Yes my life has changed now but if I had never learned what I learned then I would not be as successful as I am now. Anything worthwhile in like takes hard work. This is not a bad thing.

[janno]

Oh man, I was gonna stay outta this!... I was removed from my parents at the age of 10. I had been through some serious shit that my parents werent reallyg to blame for.
I started flatting at the age of 14 and was seriously fucked up. Im lucky that I had decided to "become someone" and had sorted interviews and had had a haircut and WINZ got me a job interview. I became a trainee chef. Yes my life has changed now but if I had never learned what I learned then I would not be as successful as I am now. Anything worthwhile in like takes hard work. This is not a bad thing.

So was it a good thing that someone interviened or could it have been sorted if you stayed put?

If that's a bit personal, don't worry about answering:yes:

[trumpy]

Organisations like CYF are, or should be, the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, if a "healthy" society is doing its job. Expecting CYF to come running every time there is some instance of abuse or sub-optimal family circumstances is an unrealistic expectation. As is blaming CYF for the carnage they have to deal with on a daily basis and which, in fact, overwhelms their ability to make sense of it.

Changing this epidemic isn't CYF's responsibility. And, in typical Catch 22 mode, their ability to attract and retain competent, dedicated and motivated staff will not be enhanced until prospective social workers believe they can contribute in a manner that actually makes a difference.

This is about "us" not "them".

Exactly.....(insert cliche of nail, hammer etc, etc)

[Str8 Jacket]

So was it a good thing that someone interviened or could it have been sorted if you stayed put?

If that's a bit personal, don't worry about answering:yes:

Maybe..........

[NighthawkNZ]

Oh man, I was gonna stay outta this!... I was removed from my parents at the age of 10. I had been through some serious shit that my parents werent reallyg to blame for...

I taken off my parents at 2 months old... :( I was moved from family home to family home, and a little shit. I was in bording school till I left, where I was totally fracked up when I made the decision to join the Royal NZ Navy which sorted me. However if I did not join the navy (which was my decision) I would either be in jail, or dead.

My point... I don't blame my parents I can't...

I don't blame the various foster parents I had at the time they did the best they could under the circumstances, and I was a little shit...

I blame the CYPS (Back then DSW) they didn't keep me in a home long enough to get the family fell l, I would be in a home for maybe 2 or 3 months then moved, and for a young kid that total fucks you up. Moved school regularly, so I didn't make many friends when I did I was moved again.

My real sister (who I have now only known for about 10 years... was similar case... but well lets say the court cases have been going for 10 years...

[Str8 Jacket]

I taken off my parents at 2 months old... :( I was moved from family home to family home, and a little shit. I was in bording school till I left, where I was totally fracked up when I made the decision to join the Royal NZ Navy which sorted me. However if I did not join the navy (which was my decision) I would either be in jail, or dead.

My point... I don't blame my parents I can't...

I don't blame the various foster parents I had at the time they did the best they could under the circumstances, and I was a little shit...



I was abused more in foster care than I was with my "real family"

[NighthawkNZ]

I taken off my parents at 2 months old... :( I was moved from family home to family home, and a little shit. I was in bording school till I left, where I was totally fracked up when I made the decision to join the Royal NZ Navy which sorted me. However if I did not join the navy (which was my decision) I would either be in jail, or dead.

My point... I don't blame my parents I can't...

I don't blame the various foster parents I had at the time they did the best they could under the circumstances, and I was a little shit...



I was abused more in foster care than I was with my "real family"

So was my sister... :mad: I have no recolection that I was, so I was lucky... but I was still

[Str8 Jacket]

So was my sister... :mad: I have no recolection that I was, so I was lucky... but I was still
\
Ive been lucky in the fact that ive been able to build a relatively "normal" life than most in my situation. Because of this im always available for a chat. PM me if you need to.

[ynot slow]

with this outfit,bullshit is all they say.i know of 2 kids put in car years ago,the marriage broke up and dad wanted all the kids to get money on dpb,this was after the mum had been in another marriage and had had 2 more kids,first hubby said to eldest daughter you tell cops mum abused you and i'll give you a pet,kid was about 11yrs old made up the story.it went to high court and was only thrown out of court when judge and defence pressed prosecution for truth and girl said she had lied for dad.meanwhile cyf(dept prior)uplifted the other 2 kids,if mum was so bad why did they leave her other 2 sons who were younger,they still can't acknowledge that one.for 10 yrs or so mother had no contact with her kids at birthdays xmas etc.even when kids turn 18 and can leave the care they try and blackmail the kids to have no contact with parents.they also placed these kids in the care of father's sister and boyfriend,neglected the kids and used the money from govt for drugs.the kids were petrified of their aunty who would descipline them,the aunty would be with the kids when time came for conferances,so they couldn't say how they were going for fear of the bash.the general concensus was they were afraid of mum,even when on speaker calls from cyfs offices if aunty was there they'd keep quiet,if aunty not there they would chat happily to the mother,not one sign of terror in voices.even phone calls were monitored to daughter as son was able to make up his mind about his mum,he enjoys her contact and hates his dad for what he did to him.meanwhile aunties boyfriend went to court for sexual violation on the daughter when she was 15,she may never have kids because of that,boyfriend and aunty now have non contact orders against them on the niece,silly thing was not once was mother ever told of any court hearings re visitation,change of care giver whilst trial was on.not once did cyfs do drugs test on either aunty or her boyfriend,then when change was needed for daughter did they ask if the mother wanted custody,they gave custody to the aunties relative,mind you at least they were decent couple and although against cyfs protocol let the daughter see her mum when in town on holidays,showed the new caregivers that daughter wasn't terrified of her mum as made out to be.all this because the dept years ago regarded the mum as guilty but case was thrown out of court.yes the mother has a criminal record,yes she made some bad decisions when younger,i.e married at 17 and pregnant,no she didn;t molest her daughter,yes both the daughters get on with their mum,mum loves both daughters and grandsons(2).long winded yes but to many people go through cyfs and may do minor things and never see their kids.i admire the cyf workers for the job they do but,i feel they need people maybe who have been there done that type of experiance as well,just because the people might be older and lack basic writing skills they might have something to give via life skills learnt the hard way.not very pc to have say a jail bird work for them but might work too,to many egos and personal agendas get in the way of families.allways remember there is two sides to every story and cyfs forget that.

[oldrider]

I didn't want to mess with Sarge's thread. I couldn't help noticing a number of people making bitter comments about CYPS.

The Childrens and Young Persons Service (now called Children Youth and Family) exists to investigate and protect children from abuse, abandonment, and wilful neglect. It is staffed by career social workers and liases closely with the police.

Now for some reason many people have a negative view of CYPS. The reasons are easy enough. Occasionally they get it wrong - eg. removing a child who isn't in danger. There are even a few extreme cases where CYPS-approved foster parents have themselves been abusive.

However in my opinion these social workers are heros. They do a damned difficult and dangerous job. How many here would do it? I wouldn't.

If you work for CYPS you have to make judgement calls every day affecting families lives, and being human, mistakes can happen. A child left in a bad place, another removed from loving parents who made a single mistake. Awful I know.

These people are pilloried in the media without any intelligent enquiry as to why mistakes happen. What do they face every day and the realities of the work?

We don't have enough social workers and given the criticism of them by journalists and politicians, who'd want to be one? Fine............but who do you call about the kids down the road sitting waiting in the pub carpark?

Judging by the consistency of your posts and threads Winston001, I would say say you are sincere in your belief of what CYPS should stand for but it doesn't in fact work that way!

Socialists (and the majority of them are) believe that the State stands supreme and individuals and their rights have no place in a socialist world.

They believe that the government owns the state and the state owns the children.

The government through their agencies usurps the authority and the role of the parents but still try to hold the parents responsible for negative outcomes.

They adopt an all care and control attitude but no one can ever be nailed down or held responsible.

They hand that back to the parents with all the blame components they can piece together from their inexhaustible records.

I made scathing comments in various posts and it is because I have witnessed them at their destructive best on so many occasions over my lifetime.

They are supposed to be there to help families not to hinder them with their damn rules and regulations and total lack of flexibility in the application of them.

There is nothing so debilitating to a successful outcome as an inflexible public servant with a rule book and an agenda. They make me bloody sick. :yes: John.

[Str8 Jacket]

What I also love is people who have NEVER lived in welfare home commenting on what they think goes on....

(not directing this at you oldrider)

[ynot slow]

People who have never dealt with this outfit.They would believe any parent with kids under cyf's care don't deserve kids.I would be in that category maybe 15yrs ago.Until you see first hand what can happen you don't get a grasp of how bloody minded the agency can be.I have a mate who was a prick to his partner,not violent wise,but going out with the boys after sport,trying and also scoring girls on weekends,then had a girl,the mother had had enough so ditched him.He was told to have nothing to do with his girl,took quiet a few of us to stop him going over that night and either killing himself and his daughter(the old if i can't see her fuck them),and his ex for good measure.His ex said if you go for custody i'll say you abused her,then that's you history.Also one guy working with cyf's was in the same sports club as well so knew if it came to it,his conquests would be against his cause.

[Winston001]

I've read the above posts and am impressed. Some of you have lived what I have only observed. And you are fair-minded enough to say that one bad experience doesn't mean all of CYPS is bad.

Yes Oldrider I am sincere, albeit with an eye to a bit of a troll. :dodge:

It's a dreadful conundrum. We have a few (still numbering into the thousands) of families which are dysfunctional. If CYPS don't intervene, the TV cameras and MPs are there at the child's hospital bed (or grave) baying for social worker blood.

When they do intervene, we see tearful mums on Closeup crying about how their children were ripped away from them. CYPS can't properly respond because they are bound by the Privacy Act and normal confidentiality.

Its a no bloody win situation.

[Winston001]

Organisations like CYF are, or should be, the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, if a "healthy" society is doing its job. Expecting CYF to come running every time there is some instance of abuse or sub-optimal family circumstances is an unrealistic expectation. As is blaming CYF for the carnage they have to deal with on a daily basis and which, in fact, overwhelms their ability to make sense of it.

Changing this epidemic isn't CYF's responsibility. And, in typical Catch 22 mode, their ability to attract and retain competent, dedicated and motivated staff will not be enhanced until prospective social workers believe they can contribute in a manner that actually makes a difference.

This is about "us" not "them".

Your post is excellent and eloquent.

[Ocean1]

Organisations like CYF are, or should be, the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, if a "healthy" society is doing its job. Expecting CYF to come running every time there is some instance of abuse or sub-optimal family circumstances is an unrealistic expectation. As is blaming CYF for the carnage they have to deal with on a daily basis and which, in fact, overwhelms their ability to make sense of it.

Changing this epidemic isn't CYF's responsibility. And, in typical Catch 22 mode, their ability to attract and retain competent, dedicated and motivated staff will not be enhanced until prospective social workers believe they can contribute in a manner that actually makes a difference.

This is about "us" not "them".

Is it "us" that's defined "them"? Yes we are collectively responsible for the welfare of those in our care. Who then is responsible for outcomes caused by the actions of CYF staff and officials?

It is, as you say unrealistic to expect CYF to prevent undesirable family circumstances. In fact personally I believe it's unrealistic to expect any bureaucracy to supply the sort of help their commission purports to provide.

I do however think we should expect CYF to do less harm than that which they hope to prevent, primum non nocere. Sadly, tragically, in many cases they have failed to perform even that minor grace. If you doubt that ask for a show of hands, anywhere, here for example. It's difficult to dismiss or censure any group so liberally leavened with genuine saints. It's sad that such an organisation can be nonetheless so utterly innept.

As for the fence at the top of the cliff? It's riddled with the same liberal bureaucratic worm as the ambulance. Show me an authority in a position to lead, train and protect our kids and I'll show you legislative chapter and verse and operational policy preventing them from doing exactly that. In this regard our society is far from healthy, and there lies the source of your contagion.

Enough, I had every intention of staying the hell away from this, and in fact can't contribute more with any coherence.

They could do better.
They could do a fucking sight better.

[scumdog]

Had a friend who worked for that crowd. Went in bright eyed and bushy tailed, got spat out the other end, jaded and cynical.


On top of that, ludicrous amounts of utterly meaningless paperwork, too much power in the hands of too few with a personal agenda to push, and everyone suffering burnout from a workload you wouldn't believe.

Apparently they get a lot of truely committed and caring individuals working for them with a genuine desire to make a difference, but in the end the majority get ground down by it all.

So the ones that are left are either due for sainthood fairly soon because they have stuck it out, or else shouldn't be in the job at all but are merely because they can stick it out.

Sounds awful like another Govt organisation that seems to also feature in the media for all the wrong reasons.:dodge: :whistle:

CYPS down here are top-notch, can't fault them and a lot go that extra mile.:yes:

[kro]

Sorry, at end of day these depts are run by people like you and me, doing a job and you cannot expect perfection.....surely imperfections are better than nothing because then the perfect parts will not happen.....

I thought my post would be misconstrued. I was in fact using something I am not a big fan of, which is sarcasm, to show the futility of the argument as a whole, bearing in mind, that these dept's are staffed with real people, with real issues of their own, and sometimes shit goes wrong.

[janno]

The whole debate about child safety and welfare in NZ (and in Aus) brings to mind the saying "it takes a whole village to raise a child".

I have very committed Christian friends who raises thousands for African villages and have in fact done tours of duty as missionaries.

However they are very scathing and derogatory about streetkids and families in crisis in their own town (Auckland).

The NIMBY syndrome? A cute little black baby in Kenya isn't going to grow up to break in to your home, bash your grandma and steal your flat screen telly?

Or get smart and tell you to fuck off?

One missionary I talked to had years of experience, but when she was posted to outback Australia the hostility, substance abuse, sexual abuse and hopelessness there sent her to a nervous breakdown.

So I do have a great deal of respect for anyone who is trying to make a difference at the end of the day.

But I also know what my husband went through in the early nineties when he split up with the mother of his children. The family court was so anti male back then, it was just unbelievable. He actually had a judge tell him "why would your ex partner lie? She has no reason to."

Umm? Using the children as weapons?

Off topic I know, but kinda the same mentality at work. Beaurocratic do-gooders and chardonnay liberals.

[yungatart]

Some years ago, friends of mine had a wee toddler who fell down the steps and bashed his head. Being caring parents, they took the wee fella to hospital for a check. Child was admitted with concussion, some Dr decided that this "could" have been as a result of abuse and called CYPS in. Fair enough!
However after completing their investigations and finding nothing untoward, they removed the child from his parents, placing him with his grandparents, because it costs the State less to place a child within a family than it does to place them in foster care.
The parents were allowed supervised access only, and the grandparents, whilst considered clued up enough to raise the child, were not considered fit to supervise the visits.
This entire family went through hell for almost 2 years, before the parents were considered reformed enought to take care of their wee boy.
Because her parents had custody, she could not call around to her Mum for some love and support, because that put her child at risk!!!
What a load of BS!! Despite a complete lack of evidence, these parents were branded as abusers after their child had a simple childhood accident.

[Sanx]

I have very committed Christian friends who raises thousands for African villages and have in fact done tours of duty as missionaries. However they are very scathing and derogatory about streetkids and families in crisis in their own town (Auckland).

And you expect sense and logic out of committed Christians? In my limited experience, I usually find that missionaries have one agenda; spreading whichever poisonous belief system they happen to follow. You only have to look at 'aid' agencies like WorldVision and Christian Aid who tie in provision of medical services to village kids getting baptised for a very real demonstration. One other aid agency, the name of which I've forgotten, boasts about how they build schools and medical clinics and install clean water supply equipment, but completely fail to mention that the very first thing they do is build a church in each town.

Care and compassion of the people they're meant to be helping is purely secondary to their main aim.

[janno]

And you expect sense and logic out of committed Christians? In my limited experience, I usually find that missionaries have one agenda; spreading whichever poisonous belief system they happen to follow. You only have to look at 'aid' agencies like WorldVision and Christian Aid who tie in provision of medical services to village kids getting baptised for a very real demonstration. One other aid agency, the name of which I've forgotten, boasts about how they build schools and medical clinics and install clean water supply equipment, but completely fail to mention that the very first thing they do is build a church in each town.

Care and compassion of the people they're meant to be helping is purely secondary to their main aim.

If I were to believe in any religion, it would be b'hai. One god with many names. Makes sense to me. But I digress . . .

[devnull]

While there may be some good social workers out there, those aren't people you ever hear about. Does nobody remember the British social workers that came out here, and we're so appalled with CYFS that one decided the U.K. wasn't so bad after all, and the other chose to work for a different govt dept.

Unlike most countries elsewhere, CYFS are not legally accountable for their actions. If you, as a parent, believe they have acted badly, you have no recourse whatsoever. I think that is something that many find unacceptable.

I'd suggest having a read of some of the stories posted at http://watchingcyfs.wordpress.com/

In particular, the story of the couple who started the site after their child died while in CYFS care. It makes for appalling reading. I don't doubt that any organisation, that cannot be called to account for its actions, wouldbehave similarly. If this system was so good, why did we need a Police Complaints Authority? Should it be scrapped? Or should something similar be put in place to give parents some legal recourse when dealing with overzealous govt officials?

[SARGE]

thanks for the thread Winston.

I have been informed that since the police were involved with my son's walkabout i WOULD be hearing from SYPS...


watch this space :angry:




Unlike most countries elsewhere, CYFS are not legally accountable for their actions. If you, as a parent, believe they have acted badly, you have no recourse whatsoever. I think that is something that many find unacceptable.



there is always a recourse mate .. you just need to be ready to accept the consequences..

[devnull]

there is always a recourse mate .. you just need to be ready to accept the consequences..

Very true mate... I was meaning recourse within the law... though the other way wouldn't bother me either if it came down to the well-being of my son :Punk:

Hope it all works out for ya too...

[SARGE]

Very true mate... I was meaning recourse within the law... though the other way wouldn't bother me either if it came down to the well-being of my son :Punk:

Hope it all works out for ya too...



i have always been told


" violence doesn't solve anything ..."


you'd be surprised at how much it really DOES solve..

[Winston001]

Interesting. There is some really genuine anger here.

IMHO CYF staff are always caught between a rock and a hard place. A social worker has to make a judgement upon which hangs the future welfare of a child. Get it wrong and..................well, various posts here are the result.

My experience has been on the periphery of CYF involvement, and only once or twice a year over 25 years. I cannot think of a case where they got it wrong. In fact the families where they intervene were so dysfunctional that it seemed merciful to remove the children.

Having said that, I wasn't the child. It must feel confusing and even damaging to be taken away from your parent(s). And foster parents mean well but they can't all be Mother Teresa - they have to cope with some pretty wild kids.

[Winston001]

For what it is worth, modern child welfare theory says that leaving children with their family is the best and first option. If the parents can't cope, get them support including other family members, and keep an eye them. Teachers are a valuable source of independent information.

So children aren't removed holus bolus from families these days but it is a recent change.

I need to point out that there is a strong contrary view ie. that deliberately leaving children where they are neglected and abused is simply wrong. There just aren't enough social workers etc to fully supervise all situations.

[NotaGoth]

Some people have had their good experiences and others have had their bad... I realize that.. Awesome to hear that there are times when they have actually removed a child with good reason...

But then there are the cases where is no good reason at all...

Personally I have seen my own bad case, and that is as a CHILD sitting back in frustration watching all this finger pointing and accusations going on at very loving parents who did everything for us kids..... Because one child ran off the rails suddenly my parents were labelled as child abusers, and unfit parents.. Even to the point we were taken into rooms on our own and questioned and grilled by people telling us that they know our parents hit us and that its ok to tell them, they said they wouldn't tell anyone if we told them.. Like what the hell??????.. What a fucking crock of shit.. To a young child thats brainwashing.. Lets pressure the child til they crack and tell us a load of bullshit just so that we'll leave them alone... As a child you end up not knowing truth from reality when your left in a room with someone like that.... THAT IS DANGEROUS in my mind..

.. I'll stick to not wanting anything to do with them and not recommending them... As others will also do...

Its just like going to a hospital.. Sometimes you walk away unhappy with how you have been treated.. Sometimes you don't.. We are all entitled to our own opinion.. Wether it be from word of mouth, or our own personal experiences

[janno]

Even to the point we were taken into rooms on our own and questioned and grilled by people telling us that they know our parents hit us and that its ok to tell them, they said they wouldn't tell anyone if we told them.. Like what the hell??????..

Woah! That sounds like a nightmare!!

I sincerely hope that doesn't go on anymore, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was still the way they operate.

Maybe in a few years time there'll be a huge public scandal, like the abuse in the religious orphanages and homes in the 1950s that is only coming to light now.

I suppose part of the difficulty is that children are involved, and most kids are not really able to stand up and say "this isn't right".

[NotaGoth]

Woah! That sounds like a nightmare!!

I sincerely hope that doesn't go on anymore, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was still the way they operate.

Maybe in a few years time there'll be a huge public scandal, like the abuse in the religious orphanages and homes in the 1950s that is only coming to light now.

I suppose part of the difficulty is that children are involved, and most kids are not really able to stand up and say "this isn't right".

Think like a child... Approach a child in that way and they'll start thinking that if they just say it (even if its untrue) that they'll just leave you alone and let you go home to mummy and daddy.. I know thats what I started to think when they still wouldn't leave me alone, even after I told them no that it wasn't true

I agree with your last comment also.. Its a tough one.. I admit that

I still stand by my thoughts though.. Even though I was young I still remember it like it was yesterday.. I hope I never ever have to deal with them again

[u4ea]

Had experience with them as a child also.There were alligations of an extended family member who was molesting us.Then SWD didnt pursue it.I had allegations put against me a few yrs back as I was recovering from operation and some family members saw me as unfit and instead of offering support rang CYFS.I neally died through it all and no one listned.Ended up going into hiding for 2 weeks with my son untill they did a proper investigation.Of late the sex abuse claims are being investigated by CYFS (after 20 yrs) and the family members are going to be accountable.I never rang CYFS but certain behaviours are proving to be their own demise.

Some things are just not black and white

[mangell6]

CYF/P are not responsible for Societies ills, they are the ones who have to clean up the mess. The individuals within the organisations will get it wrong and they will also get it write (sick).

Politics and Media advertising play a large part in the way the organisation is run. Add the "blame" culture to the mix and the organisation can never do anything right.

[MSTRS]

CYF/P are not responsible for Societies ills, they are the ones who have to clean up the mess. ...

That is how it should be.
Unfortunately, this is not how it is with CYPS all the time. There are just too many examples of zealotry from them to think that they are the ambulance at the bottom, when too often they are the top doing some pushing (over) of their own. Ten small successes of theirs do not balance out one screwup by one or more of their staff.
Remember, the screwups leave people who will carry the mental/emotional scars for life, to say nothing of the paper record that may come back to bite in later years.

[Sanx]

Yeah but they are still getting medical clinics and clean water.. a fair trade off I would have thought to have a church erected too? Unless the medical clinic is situated inside the church and the water fountain in the inner sanctum, I'm sure they still have the decision making powers to not chose to go to the church should they not want too.... not so with clean water.
If you have any better ideas to get them the aid that these people are providing, then I'm sure they would welcome it.

(Sorry for the off-topic reply)

Well, how's about the manner in which Oxfam, the Red Cross, Save The Children, Tear Fund, UNICEF or any of the other secular aid agencies do it? They don't tie aid to religious adherence.

People like Medecin Sans Frontieres (Doctors Without Borders) go into any country in the world that needs them and set up emergency medical clinics, again without expecting the people benefiting to abandon their beliefs to get help. MSF especially have a reputation for providing excellent medical care regardless of the race, colour or religion of the people concerned.

[jazbug5]

What I also love is people who have NEVER lived in welfare home commenting on what they think goes on....

(not directing this at you oldrider)


Hmm. Well, it could just as well be directed at me, and I suppose it's a fair criticism as I managed, personally, to stay out of one. But only just, and only by hiding in another country until I turned 16.
I may not know about care homes in NZ, but I know enough about the ones where I'm from in Scotland to know that I'm grateful to have escaped those- and having heard some things about NZ homes, I am guilty of assuming they must be pretty similar. Making that assumption was out of line, and I apologise.
I have strong opinions on the Scottish version because I have several close friends who were not so lucky, and all of them got into drugs and other forms of trouble while in the system. My best mate's daughter got into drugs, stealing and prostitution as a direct result of going through it. Seven years on (she started this life when only 14) she still isn't clean, and last year nearly had to have her arm cut off at the shoulder. Knowing my mate as I do, I cannot believe that if they hadn't first taken the daughter from her when she was small as a first resort and as a consequence of listening to malicious gossip, she would not be far better off.

Anyway, I apologise to anyone I may have offended.

[Hitcher]

At the risk of offending lots of people, it appears that there is a mood growing whereby people are not allowed to post their opinions about anything they have no direct or personal knowledge or experience of. Except, of course, the use of written English.

[Str8 Jacket]

Hmm. Well, it could just as well be directed at me, and I suppose it's a fair criticism as I managed, personally, to stay out of one....

No, not directed at you. I was directing this at the general population of NZ.
Let me tell ya'll a bit about me..... I was removed from my parents at a young age. I was taken from my school one morning and taken to my parents house where I was given 15 mins or so to get my stuff. I was soo very young and scared that I think all I took was a teddy bear a pic of my family. Only a handful of clothing. I was then delivered to my new home by my so called social worker. She unloaded the car and then left me. I only really saw her each time I was taken to a new home. I went through many homes, ive lost count of how many.... Most of the foster parents were never that interested. Hell, usually you were one of up to 10 kids living in the house! I was a pretty lonely messed up kid who was badly teased at school because I was covered in eczma. None of my foster parents ever got me any medical help for this and quite often it would get so bad that I would stink. I only have very bad memories ofliving in foster care so I wont bore you with the details....
At the age of 15 I was put on the independant youth benefit and I decided to stay at school. I thought that I could make something of myself. Unfortunately with no support I failed School Cert and then had to drop out of school in 6th form as I couldnt afford to pay my school fees. So I became a bum. I slept on the streets, sniffed solvents, drank meths and basically spent a year getting as far from reality as I could. A nice man came and saved me one day. He gave me an apprenticeship and basically helped me get clean. He taught me how to read and write again and most importantly he taught me how to get on with people. I was really lucky cause I could be dead today.
This is why I get upset when others judge people. You never know where people have been in life and just what they have overcome. As for CYFS I was let down by them. But I was lucky, unlike alot of others....

I really think/ know that something needs to be done. I just wish I knew what!

[Ocean1]

At the risk of offending lots of people, it appears that there is a mood growing whereby people are not allowed to post their opinions about anything they have no direct or personal knowledge or experience of. Except, of course, the use of written English.

What, complaints about public opinion trends from a spin doctor? :shutup:

At the risk of overstepping the boundaries of my own field of expertise can I tentatively suggest that the reaction may have been more to do with a want of sensitivity?

I have a great deal of respect for advanced practitioners of any form of communication, particularly the written word. This topic however is the source of a great deal of pain for some. There are endless alternative opportunities to comment on the communication skills of others which may elicit a more reasonable response, may even perhaps produce an improvement in those skills you seek to promote.


A nice man came and saved me one day. He gave me an apprenticeship and basically helped me get clean. He taught me how to read and write again and most importantly he taught me how to get on with people. I was really lucky cause I could be dead today.
This is why I get upset when others judge people. You never know where people have been in life and just what they have overcome. As for CYFS I was let down by them. But I was lucky, unlike alot of others....

I really think/ know that something needs to be done. I just wish I knew what!

Well done that man. :)

Perhaps in an ideal world it would be less difficult for such men to do what he did.

[Str8 Jacket]

Well done that man. :)

Perhaps in an ideal world it would be less difficult for such men to do what he did.

Yep, he was an angel!

Sometimes a little compassion can go a long way. Often its not what people say, its what they do for others. Its easy to tell someone that they need to change but what seems easy to others, some people genuinely dont or cant understand. Does this make them less of a person?

[Dilligaf]

. You only have to look at 'aid' agencies like WorldVision and Christian Aid who tie in provision of medical services to village kids getting baptised for a very real demonstration. One other aid agency, the name of which I've forgotten, boasts about how they build schools and medical clinics and install clean water supply equipment, but completely fail to mention that the very first thing they do is build a church in each town.


Sorry I couldn't let this one go past.... care to give me any ideas where I can find out the facts behind what you say. Spent a long time this morning looking for evidence of this... Have friends who work overseas for one of these companies.... funnily enough they speak of building wells, not baptising unsuspecting children. I could ask them for you though.... Although I do remember that they don't always employ Christians... somehow doesn't seem to tie in with what you say... of course they could have again conveniently forgotten to mention that on orientation day, it's baptism day too. :whistle:


(Sorry for the off-topic reply)

Well, how's about the manner in which Oxfam, the Red Cross, Save The Children, Tear Fund, UNICEF or any of the other secular aid agencies do it? They don't tie aid to religious adherence.
.

Well I'd be checking my sources... or perhaps not linking all Christians together. Tear Fund would be very interested to find out it was considered "secular".

[SARGE]

BOUNCE to get more input on this and less on the cut-out thread

[ManDownUnder]

I needed to understand CYFS recently - got put in touch with a friend of a friend in Welliwood (Jo - for them that know) and she was brilliant.

I've had reason to cross their path a couple of times but in every case I have come to the conclusion they are overworked and do a bitch of a job that no-one really seems to be capable of for sustained periods (hence the lack of really senior and experienced people).

I also expect the perception is that they're only ever going to get it wrong because what they do is inherantly "interfering" with a family, either in structure or dynamic... and let's face it - who wants a State Agency in the middle of their affairs?

I can't think of an instance where I've heard "YAY CYFS" or "I can't wait till CYFS get here!". It's like waiting for an ambulance. The reason for calling is never a good one.

Govt needs to put more funding in, lighten the workload on the individuals, give them better pay and demand they are better qualified. Same for teachers, nurses, and Police. More people, better pay, and higher standards expected.

Take money out of the pockets of the bludgers, and make prison less "comfy". Save that cash and pour it back into society through those vehicles.

[SARGE]

I needed to understand CYFS recently - got put in touch with a friend of a friend in Welliwood (Jo - for them that know) and she was brilliant.

I've had reason to cross their path a couple of times but in every case I have come to the conclusion they are overworked and do a bitch of a job that no-one really seems to be capable of for sustained periods (hence the lack of really senior and experienced people).

I also expect the perception is that they're only ever going to get it wrong because what they do is inherantly "interfering" with a family, either in structure or dynamic... and let's face it - who wants a State Agency in the middle of their affairs?

I can't think of an instance where I've heard "YAY CYFS" or "I can't wait till CYFS get here!". It's like waiting for an ambulance. The reason for calling is never a good one.

Govt needs to put more funding in, lighten the workload on the individuals, give them better pay and demand they are better qualified. Same for teachers, nurses, and Police. More people, better pay, and higher standards expected.

Take money out of the pockets of the bludgers, and make prison less "comfy". Save that cash and pour it back into society through those vehicles.



dead on again Nigel

would you prefer to coddle a prisoner or intervene before he becomes one?


how much to house an inmate per year?

how much does dole cost per year?

how much to have a trained, qualified social worker per year ?


pick one

[avgas]

I'd have to say the problem doesnt exist with CYPS, sadly it the whole system.
I once had a protection order between myself and my father, even though i was living in his house, organised by my mother (who wasn't living in the house).....and i was never consulted.
No one dots the 'i's or crosses the 't's in this place. Its bullshit.
Don't even get me started on the dole bludgers i've met that live in million dollar houses....that they own.

[Winston001]

I can't think of an instance where I've heard "YAY CYFS" or "I can't wait till CYFS get here!". It's like waiting for an ambulance. The reason for calling is never a good one.

Govt needs to put more funding in, lighten the workload on the individuals, give them better pay and demand they are better qualified. Same for teachers, nurses, and Police. More people, better pay, and higher standards expected.

Well said. The major difficulty which all of the above professions face - except nurses - is a general lack of public respect. The reason is that we see social workers, teachers, and police officers in the media from time to time who have transgressed. It makes for juicy easy media stories so is repeated ad nauseum. The result is that the sins of the few are applied to all.

IMHO we need public confidence to be restored but I confess it won't be easy. Higher professional standards and better resources are a start.

So far as CYF is concerned, we need the Commisioner of Children and quite a few of our politicians from all parties to publicly praise and support them. Otherwise, who is ever going to chose this work in the future..........I know I wouldn't.