Death penalty

[ManDownUnder]

c'mon - for or against - and why?

[ManDownUnder]

Opened in response to the very polite request made in this thread...


If you think this country isn't at war with smacktards like that, and doesn't need to defend itself, you're mistaken.

[James Deuce]

Against. It's petty barbaric revenge. It achieves nothing, including resurrecting or healing a victim.

Better to concentrate on developing a meaningful restitution policy.

[ManDownUnder]

For me - State Sanctioned Killing is still killing - still at odds with the fundamental right to life which is only usurped by those in favour of natural justice.

Line 'em up and kill 'em?

Poor Arthur Allan Thomas... dead, innocent but... hey - c'est la vie
Possibly the same for David Bain
How many other innocents?

When is that head count acceptable - or unacceptable?

What about the very fact the State is lowering itself to be that same killer it is trying to deal with? How can it ever have a moral high ground - or moral imperative - when committing the very same henous act?

"fraid not - I'd like to think society has developed away from that, and has more realistic ways of dealing with the lowlife that walk with un in society.

[Clivoris]

No chance of this thread turning into a shit-fight aye. I gotta sit on the fence for this one. I can imagine circumstances where it would seem very reasonable (and babaric), purely motivated by revenge. I think that those that want it should be prepared to carry it out themselves though. I can't imagine where the line would be drawn though.

[ManDownUnder]

I can't imagine where the line would be drawn though.

Pure and simple for me... a deadly outcome would only be acceptable:

1) In defence of another in the face of a potentially lethal situation
2) In the protection of our nations borders and or sovereignty.

For me it's a case of "if in doubt - don't!"

[onearmedbandit]

Despite emotions telling me otherwise I'd say no. What I would support is finding a small isolated island, ring it with security, and leave the worst there to survive from themselves, completely cut off from civilisation.

[ManDownUnder]

Despite emotions telling me otherwise I'd say no. What I would support is finding a small isolated island, ring it with security, and leave the worse there to survive from themselves, completely cut off frim civilisation.

Quite acceptable in my book. I'm not saying we treat them anything but contempt. They shit on society - time to turn the tables...

I say put 'em to hard labour smashing rocks that get sold to pay for their keep... the more they smash the better their conditions (marginally).

[imdying]

It achieves nothing, including resurrecting or healing a victim.Much like any other system they've come up with (and are likely to come up). Dead people don't go and rape more little girls though.

[98tls]

For.......i am sure it would deter some......not all but some......rapists,kid fuckers,granny bashers etc........whats the point of keeping them onboard.....none.......it will never happen though as theres to many do-gooder save the world through talking about it types.When the fark are we going to wake up and do something different........oh and you can add the pricks that do the home invasion thing to the list.......people say no to the death penalty but i am sure they would change there mind if two or three pricks broke into there house,beat the shit outta them whilst taking turns to rape there wife.......but oh no..its all quite bearable as long as it happens to someone else........

[ManDownUnder]

Much like any other system they've come up with (and are likely to come up). Dead people don't go and rape more little girls though.

Which says to me we need to improve the system, rather than risk killing innocents. Surely that's the better option (and I'm speaking as the father of 2 GORGEOUS daughters...)

[ManDownUnder]

... bout time we had a decent drag em down beat 'em up thread LOL...

[Mom]

Against! totally against! Too many instances where an innocent person has been convicted, and worst of all this is sanctioned murder in my eyes! A planned, well thought out process to end someones life! very wrong!

BUT!

I could see me cheerfully getting rid of someone that hurts/damages one of mine.......is there a defense called "Mothers Blood"?

[imdying]

Which says to me we need to improve the system, rather than risk killing innocents.I'm willing to risk that, given the rate of reoffending in this country.

[doc]

Against. It's petty barbaric revenge. It achieves nothing, including resurrecting or healing a victim.

Better to concentrate on developing a meaningful restitution policy.

I agree it achieves nothing but they don't do it again. My problem is that capital punishment is the right idea. But I have just finished reading the book "Trial by trickery" and I don't trust the system. It's fine if your a law biding sypophant, it becomes a bit different when your the one involved.

[ManDownUnder]

Dead people don't go and rape more little girls though.


I'm willing to risk that, given the rate of reoffending in this country.

Very true - and dead innocents don't get to be a parent to their sons and daughters. Your point being?

[imdying]

I think the point is pretty clear.

[98tls]

Very true - and dead innocents don't get to be a parent to their sons and daughters. Your point being? yes but in the long term i am guessing you would save a whole lot more "innocents" a lot of grief..think of it as a war.....theres always a few friendlys killed but nowhere near the number of enemy.....

[ManDownUnder]

yes but in the long term i am guessing you would save a whole lot more "innocents" a lot of grief..think of it as a war.....theres always a few friendlys killed but nowhere near the number of enemy.....

yeah but - how many are pointing the gun thinking "hang on - I might get the death penalty for this".

Or is it more like "DIE YOU FUCKER!!!!!!!!!!!!!" through a gently falling red mist?

The more serious/violent the crime the less effective are punative deterrents

[pzkpfw]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4108937a11.html

Kill him.


http://www.stuff.co.nz/4108885a11.html

Kill him.


http://www.stuff.co.nz/4108765a11.html

Kill her.


http://www.stuff.co.nz/4108886a11.html

Kill them all.


I'm sick to death of all the bollocks.

Grrr.


(The real trick is where one draws the line. It's not easy. Some people would want the death penalty for motorcylists who lane split! But at some point, we need a line.

Somewhere.

Maybe between rape and returning library books late.)

[Colapop]

Concrete tank justice. Same as an island but it'll take less time for them to kill each other and then you only need one bullet to kill the most evil bugger who obviously committed murder to be the last...

[98tls]

There are people in this country locked up and even scarier not locked up that are just plain fucked up.......all the greenie tree hugging shit in the world isnt going to save em.......there just bad..simple.The reality is that its lotto odds that there going to end up breaking in to your house fuckin your missus up the arse after bashing you senseless or worse doing something to your kids.......for me anyway there not odds i want to take.......kill them end of story..if you dont accept there out there then your living in a bubble and i just hope it doesnt get burst the hard way.I wonder how many nays you would get if this question was asked to a group of people who had suffered at the hands of said fuck-ups.....sure you would get the odd bible bashing forgiveness freak but not many.............

[Mom]

yeah but - how many are pointing the gun thinking "hang on - I might get the death penalty for this".

Or is it more like "DIE YOU FUCKER!!!!!!!!!!!!!" through a gently falling red mist?

The more serious/violent the crime the less effective are punative deterrents

The death penalty serves no purpose!!! If i am hell bent on killing you for instance......for what ever reason I am goiing to do it!!!!!! Fuck the consequences........:sunny:

[98tls]

The death penalty serves no purpose!!! If i am hell bent on killing you for instance......for what ever reason I am goiing to do it!!!!!! Fuck the consequences........:sunny: For sure.......thing is though if your heads cut off your unlikely to kill anyone else................

[janno]

Definitely against.

Because even though there will be the best of intentions, mistakes are always made in the judicial system.

And you might not care too much if it was someone else, but what if the wrongly convicted person was your partner . . . or you?

But then what would I do if it was my loved one murdered?

In the heat of the moment I would try and kill that person committing the crime, but being able to cold bloodedly kill them years after the fact - that's a toughie.

And like someone said, if you're not prepared to do it yourself, should you really support the death penalty?

Hopefully I'll never be in the situation where I need to ponder this any further, fingers crossed. :mellow:

[Flatcap]

For sure.......thing is though if your heads cut off your unlikely to kill anyone else................

Aah - so you are an advocate for the guillotine.

No discussion about the death penalty is complete without mention of the form it will take.

Guillotine: Quick but messy
Firing Squad: Not so quick, messy, but impressive
Lethal injection: A bit boring with little suffering
Electric chair: Can go wrong, and probably bad for the ozone layer.
Hanging: Cheap and effective, good family entertainment

What have I missed?

[Colapop]

If the death penalty is not an option then what is the solution? We cannot continue to incarcerate convicts for lengths of time, reduced on appeal, then let out on early parole to re offend. Prison has become a place of haven for recidivist offenders, a breeding ground for future recidivists and a salve for bleeding heart liberals who want to "save the world".

The justice system does not offer justice to the victims of these crimes.

A child can be beaten to death and the public cry foul (thanks to a media circus) but in 10 years time the perpetrator is freed having 'served his/her debt to society' and goes on to beat a second child to death. What has been achieved? All that happens is the death of a child by the hands of a violent and brutal person has been forgotten and another child is in line to be forgotten, by all but those who loved it.

A woman can be brutally raped repeatedly over the course of many hours and left for dead. The evil bastard responsible for the heinous crime is jailed for 6 years and is then released having been cured after 5. He goes on to rape another 3 women before being caught again.

These crimes have happened and these criminals have been rightly convicted for these crimes. What do we do to stop them doing it again?

[Grahameeboy]

kill them i say!!!

[janno]

Aah - so you are an advocate for the guillotine.

No discussion about the death penalty is complete without mention of the form it will take.

Guillotine: Quick but messy
Firing Squad: Not so quick, messy, but impressive
Lethal injection: A bit boring with little suffering
Electric chair: Can go wrong, and probably bad for the ozone layer.
Hanging: Cheap and effective, good family entertainment

What have I missed?

Eating KFC and Macca's - doesn't that kill ya these days . . .? :innocent:

[98tls]

i met a bloke who when 17 killed a guy with a hammer........the guy had raped his sister........when talking to him about the death penalty he said he wished they had killed him.......at that stage he was early thirtys and still in jail so go figure........maybe its more of a punishment to lock em up for ever.....dunno.

[Hitcher]

Against. It's barbaric state-sanctioned revenge killing. It provides no deterrent to the crimes for which it is imposed. If people can only have their grief/fury assuaged by the shedding of more blood, they need serious therapy, not a death penalty.

HTFU.

[Grahameeboy]

Sorry momentary rebellious lapse earlier...

You have a point TL.....death is the end so they do not suffer whereas in prison they suffer.........now there will be exceptions like Colapop raises but you have a point.

[Flatcap]

Against. It's barbaric state-sanctioned revenge killing. It provides no deterrent to the crimes for which it is imposed. If people can only have their grief/fury assuaged by the shedding of more blood, they need serious therapy, not a death penalty.

HTFU.

There is a fate worse than death, however.

I for one would not like to have my boyish good looks swapped nightly for cigarettes while serving life in maximum security

[98tls]

Against. It's barbaric state-sanctioned revenge killing. It provides no deterrent to the crimes for which it is imposed. If people can only have their grief/fury assuaged by the shedding of more blood, they need serious therapy, not a death penalty.

HTFU. Nope.......hang em......then theres just urine to deal with.An almost comical post.....once again i will point out that by ridding the world of them then at least we can assume they wont do it again,best we can hope for i guess.And fwiw once again i will say if the worst happens to one of your loved ones i would bet your answer would be different to this question but hey enjoy the bubble

[98tls]

Do you really believe that someone that fucks children will get over it by talking about it........therapy.........:zzzz:If you truely do then you need to climb out from under the rock and see a bit of life....but then again i guess you would take the therapy option.........

[imdying]

Hmmmm, losing a few innocents due to wrongful conviction vs saving thousands of innocents from repeat offenders... what a tough choice. If we put the ex prisons money into the justice system, that might go some way towards keeping wrong convictions to an absolute minimum.

[Trudes]

Against, for the same reasons as Mom, Hitcher and Jim2.:bye:

[MisterD]

Aah - so you are an advocate for the guillotine.

No discussion about the death penalty is complete without mention of the form it will take.

Guillotine: Quick but messy
Firing Squad: Not so quick, messy, but impressive
Lethal injection: A bit boring with little suffering
Electric chair: Can go wrong, and probably bad for the ozone layer.
Hanging: Cheap and effective, good family entertainment

What have I missed?

The scorpion pit, I'm sure Auckland zoo could find some space next to the kids petting zoo area...

[Sanx]

The death penalty does not act as a deterrent. The crime figures in the USA (with the second-highest per-capita execution rates in the world after China) are proof.

Yes, people get convicted of murder, get let out after ten years, then go on to re-offend. There's a really simply solution. Don't let the fuckers out. "Life imprisonment" gets its name from the fact it used to mean "life"; you were kept in jail until you died. Yes, the prison population would go up a bit, but if the tree-hugging nancies responsible for prisoners getting three square meals, fully-equipped gyms and LCD TVs stopped campaigning for prisoners' rights, maybe jail would cease to be such an attractive option for the recidivist work-shy scum that seem to inhabit half of South Auckland.

The death penalty is never an option as it removes the ability of the state to right a wrong.

Take the UK. Ten people jailed for two separate incidents (pub bombings) in the 1970s. If we'd had the death penalty, they'd have all been executed. Seventeen years on, it was discovered that the Police division responsible for investigating had simply fabricated evidence, withheld other evidence and lied through their teeth in order to get a conviction. They simply picked up conveniently Irish-sounding guys and jailed 'em. Also didn't help that forensic evidence that they'd all recently-handled explosives was discredited; the same positive result could come from having recently handled playing cards.

So, after seventeen odd years, the ten people were released and their convictions quashed. They were able to get back to their wives and kids. They were able to resume something approaching a normal life. They couldn't have done it if they'd been executed.

There's not evidence coming from the States that many prisoners on death row are there incorrectly. Many states have introduced moratoria on executions and are re-examing cases. Illionois alone released 13 people on death row in 2000, due to unsafe convictions. Over a hundred people have been released from death row and later had their convictions overturned in the last ten years.

You can let someone out of jail. You can't let someone out of a grave.

[doc]

kill them i say!!!Grahameeboy calm down you must not retaliate. I'm VERY disapponted in this outburst. We will do it for you , but you must not take sides.

[Grahameeboy]

Grahameeboy calm down you must not retaliate. I'm VERY disapponted in this outburst. We will do it for you , but you must not take sides.

Cheers Doc........

[McJim]

I can't imagine anyone being able to add anything to this discussion that hasn't been said a million times already. It's a good topic to make blood boil.

[Blondini]

I reckon to test them in a laboratory instead of rats mice dogs etc.Use human guinea pigs give them some good old exposure to mega radiation.Drown them and revive them ...well....you did ask...:yes: :shutup:

[98tls]

What i want to know is wheres all the do gooder anti everything sensible types.......hell i thought this thread was going to fill in the abyss of a wednesday night....no coro........instead its all been rather civil...........:nono:

[Skyryder]

No.

Skyryder

[Winston001]

Better one innocent man die than nine criminals walk among us. :done:

[SPman]

Unless that man happens to be you.......

[Winston001]

Unless that man happens to be you.......

True.......but we have to rise above the personal.

[Ocean1]

Hmmmm, losing a few innocents due to wrongful conviction vs saving thousands of innocents from repeat offenders... what a tough choice. If we put the ex prisons money into the justice system, that might go some way towards keeping wrong convictions to an absolute minimum.

I wonder how many convicted serial murderers/rapists are serially innocent.

In such instances it's criminally negligent to allow them another chance.

I like restorative justice, trouble is it doesn't work. Criminals do what they do because they can ignore consequences, they can and invariably do ignore court awarded costs.

I don't believe it's relevant whether any "punishment" has deterrent value, just that everyone gets to see justice done, quickly. Fact is deterrence is useful in training kids up to puberty, if you haven't managed to teach them the basics of responsibility and respect for others by then you're wasting your time.

Think outside the square guys, the western world is very conservative in how we deal with transgressors.

Here's a version I like: Revoke the repeat offender's social contract.
Allow victims to apply for a licence to inflict damage/harm to the convicted offender up to and including the level of harm incurred by the victim. Give the offender the option of remaining safe behind bars, "user pays" bars, he'll work the rest of his life to pay for his safety. Maybe we allow the offender to buy the licence, at a price set by the victim.

[BarBender]

True.......but we have to rise above the personal.

:scratch: :scratch: What the?

Against - I'm yet to be convinced how retribution is a deterrent.

[98tls]

I wonder how many convicted serial murderers/rapists are serially innocent.

In such instances it's criminally negligent to allow them another chance.

I like restorative justice, trouble is it doesn't work. Criminals do what they do because they can ignore consequences, they can and invariably do ignore court awarded costs.

I don't believe it's relevant whether any "punishment" has deterrent value, just that everyone gets to see justice done, quickly. Fact is deterrence is useful in training kids up to puberty, if you haven't managed to teach them the basics of responsibility and respect for others by then you're wasting your time.

Think outside the square guys, the western world is very conservative in how we deal with transgressors.

Here's a version I like: Revoke the repeat offender's social contract.
Allow victims to apply for a licence to inflict damage/harm to the convicted offender up to and including the level of harm incurred by the victim. Give the offender the option of remaining safe behind bars, "user pays" bars, he'll work the rest of his life to pay for his safety. Maybe we allow the offender to buy the licence, at a price set by the victim. Yes........bling given..................

[Lissa]

I just read a book called "Stolen Time" by Sunny Jacobs. Inspiring read, first heard about her on 'breakfast' went and brought her book and read it in a day.

She was imprisioned for murdering some policemen along with her partner... she was put on death row for 5 years ... in all she spent 16 years in jail for a crime she didnt commit. Her partner who was also innocent was killed in a botched Electrocution.

http://www.truthinjustice.org/soniajacobs.htm

I am absolutely against the death penalty. There are people who are killed who are innocent.

[imdying]

I am absolutely against the death penalty. There are people who are killed who are innocent.I'm against reoffending. All the people who are killed are innocent... and there's a damn sight more of them.

[Lissa]

I'm against reoffending. All the people who are killed are innocent... and there's a damn sight more of them.
I'm against the death penalty. I am also against reoffending. If someone murdered one of my family or friends, I would want them to suffer, and to never see the light of day again.

[98tls]

I just read a book called "Stolen Time" by Sunny Jacobs. Inspiring read, first heard about her on 'breakfast' went and brought her book and read it in a day.

She was imprisioned for murders some policemen along with her partner... she was put on death row for 5 years ... in all she spent 16 years in jail for a crime she didnt commit. Her partner who was also innocent was killed in a botched Electrocution.

http://www.truthinjustice.org/soniajacobs.htm

I am absolutely against the death penalty. There are people who are killed who are innocent. I totally understand your post lissa.........thing is though lifes a bitch.....cant let the rest of the fuck-ups look forward to commiting more carnage because an innocent person may die..........an endless thread i guess but i will defy anyone to say no to the death penalty after seeing the aftermath of an act of true brutality against a loved one...........

[imdying]

Yep, that's the proposition. It's a bummer that wrongfully convicted people are going to be offed. It's even more of a bummer that innocent people are getting whacked all too often. That poor bastard on his quad bike, his family didn't die with him, but they're all innocent victims too. We don't have to have the DP forever, but it might not hurt spending a hundred years sorting out the gene pool.

[imdying]

i will defy anyone to say no to the death penalty after seeing the aftermath of an act of true brutality against a loved one...........I don't believe true forgiveness is dead mate :no: I wouldn't want to believe that.

[98tls]

I don't believe true forgiveness is dead mate :no: I wouldn't want to believe that. Hope it doesnt happen........but if it does you may have to..............

[Colapop]

This thread is too boring...
Everyone one wants everyone dead...

[98tls]

This thread is too boring...
Everyone one wants everyone dead... everyone except me.........oh and before you's all go could you move your cars to the side of the road.........imagine all those motorcycle shops.....empty of people....i think today i will take the gixxer to nelson.....then change bikes for the trip to westport...........:Punk:

[BarBender]

....an endless thread i guess but i will defy anyone to say no to the death penalty after seeing the aftermath of an act of true brutality against a loved one...........

Not all people will want it TLS

Our family have had a close relative beaten and murdered...and I can confidently say that wanting the offender dead was not something we individually or as a family wanted. As far as we were concerned - the hate had to end somewhere...

However I cant speak for those who would want an offender dead...

[Mom]

Very true - and dead innocents don't get to be a parent to their sons and daughters. Your point being?

I've been thinking though......alive innocents in jail cant parent their children either can they? That is a suck arguement MDU, may as well kill them from the start?



kill them i say!!!

Unreal..........I am shocked!.......Oh eye for eye, now see I could go there :yes:

[98tls]

Not all people will want it TLS

Our family have had a close relative beaten and murdered...and I can confidently say that wanting the offender dead was not something we individually or as a family wanted. As far as we were concerned - the hate had to end somewhere...

However I cant speak for those who would want an offender dead... Fair call.............myself and mine think differently.........given 1/2 a chance i would gladly do it myself.........and smile as i did so............

[Ocean1]

I'm against the death penalty. I am also against reoffending.

A cynic might suggest you can't have your cake and eat it too. He might also ask what you're for.

I think it's possible to prevent reoffending without killing, possibly without violence of any sort. We need to accept some of the "lesser evels" though.

We could start by micro-chipping every convicted violent offender, so that their location is known at all times. But that's a violation of their civil liberty...


If someone murdered one of my family or friends, I would want them to suffer, and to never see the light of day again.

Who better qualified than the victim to define the cost of the offence, the state seems unable (or unwilling) to.

[imdying]

It won't be too far into the future till we can 'plug in' to a computer. Maybe 50 years tops? It's a short hop and a jump to chips that can control offenders :yes:

[98tls]

It won't be too far into the future till we can 'plug in' to a computer. Maybe 50 years tops? It's a short hop and a jump to chips that can control offenders :yes: Mate your smarter than that........next you will tell me that you cant understand how drugs get inside the big house..........

[Ocean1]

It won't be too far into the future till we can 'plug in' to a computer. Maybe 50 years tops? It's a short hop and a jump to chips that can control offenders :yes:

Change their behaviour? who they are?

Are you a god?

Less violent option to simply kill them.

[imdying]

Ooooh, now we've got a thread :yes:

Death penalty we've done... offenders controlled by the 'central computer'... don't like the sound of that?

I'm a developer of (sometimes) embedded systems... not that sort of embedded, but I'll take that Pepsi challenge :lol:

/edit: Kill someone... you 'join the army' :rofl:

[Ocean1]

Ooooh, now we've got a thread :yes:

Death penalty we've done... offenders controlled by the 'central computer'... don't like the sound of that?

I'm a developer of (sometimes) embedded systems... not that sort of embedded, but I'll take that Pepsi challenge :lol:

/edit: Kill someone... you 'join the army' :rofl:

Attractive. But unethical.

Protect your family by tracking them yes, perhaps an assault of their dignity and freedom but ethically defensible.

Controlling them in the way you suggest is not only unethical it's dangerous. Can you see a time when failure to pay a parking fine sees you helping the Feds keep an eye on the neighbours?

[peasea]

It's all about the 'beyond reasonable doubt' thing isn't it? If twenty people see you knife an old lady then fair enough, there's no doubt, out with the rope. On the other hand, a chat with Arthur Allan Thomas would be interesting. Where/when does 'reasonable doubt' (or the lack of it) become reality? When a cop plats a gun/shell case/knife whatever, when luminol sets off some chemical that LOOKS like blood etc etc?

I don't trust the system enought to say 'string em up' unless there's more than one eye witness, video tape or some firm evidence you can eye-ball. Being an innocent on Death Row would drive anyone to drink, especially if they'd got it wrong or some bar steward set you up.

It's a toughie.

What if they're gaga? If their brain is fried why keep them alive? Chuck that one in the mix.

[oldrider]

I am against the death penalty on principal but I feel it needs to be reintroduced for serious repeat offenders.

I would also like the so called "authorities" responsible for releasing repeat offenders to be placed in custody.

They could take the place of the criminal that they released and complete the term of the offender that was executed.

At least that would create some accountability into the "parole" equation! :yes: John.

[98tls]

I am against the death penalty on principal but I feel it needs to be reintroduced for serious repeat offenders.

I would also like the so called "authorities" responsible for releasing repeat offenders to be placed in custody.

They could take the place of the criminal that they released and complete the term of the offender that was executed.

At least that would create some accountability into the "parole" equation! :yes: John. Nice thought john.....But........a bit treehuggish..........thing is how many "innocents" have to suffer before said repeat offenders are deemed "repeat offenders".........thing is they...the system seem to knock a few charges off if your Ngati-tahu or your parents separated before you were 5 years old..............

[peasea]

Nice thought john.....But........a bit treehuggish..........thing is how many "innocents" have to suffer before said repeat offenders are deemed "repeat offenders".........thing is they...the system seem to knock a few charges off if your Ngati-tahu or your parents separated before you were 5 years old..............

Yeah funny that; we noticed on some lame cops and robbers show the other night (Motor Way Patrol or something) that some native in a yellow Anglia was carting passengers on a restricted, no WOF, no Rego and he was given a sticker to go home and get it sorted. WTF? If that'd been you or me (bro) we'd be looking at about a grand! If that's not racist I dunno what is. That level is where a lot of shit starts.

[devnull]

A "beyond doubt" capital offence - death penalty.
Circumstantial evidence only - life

And some hardening up of the manslaughter & murder laws wouldn't go amiss either. I'm thinking about the ratbags that beat the little boy to death in Auck, but were only convicted of manslaughter :mad:

Time for a re-run of "Boondock Saints" :yes:

[peasea]

A "beyond doubt" capital offence - death penalty.
Circumstantial evidence only - life

And some hardening up of the manslaughter & murder laws wouldn't go amiss either. I'm thinking about the ratbags that beat the little boy to death in Auck, but were only convicted of manslaughter :mad:

Time for a re-run of "Boondock Saints" :yes:

Yup, softcock judges don't help.

[98tls]

Yeah funny that; we noticed on some lame cops and robbers show the other night (Motor Way Patrol or something) that some native in a yellow Anglia was carting passengers on a restricted, no WOF, no Rego and he was given a sticker to go home and get it sorted. WTF? If that'd been you or me (bro) we'd be looking at about a grand! If that's not racist I dunno what is. That level is where a lot of shit starts. Yep............finally weve caught the same wave..........BRO........:sick:

[SARGE]

Despite emotions telling me otherwise I'd say no. What I would support is finding a small isolated island, ring it with security, and leave the worst there to survive from themselves, completely cut off from civilisation.

better yet ..


Houston Astrodome
family members of the victim
plastic baseball bats
Pay Per View




for the most violent repeat offendes .. abolish the " Cruel and Unusual Punishment " ban.. have a contest for the most creative

[Ocean1]

It's all about the 'beyond reasonable doubt' thing isn't it? If twenty people see you knife an old lady then fair enough, there's no doubt, out with the rope. On the other hand, a chat with Arthur Allan Thomas would be interesting. Where/when does 'reasonable doubt' (or the lack of it) become reality? When a cop plats a gun/shell case/knife whatever, when luminol sets off some chemical that LOOKS like blood etc etc?

I don't trust the system enought to say 'string em up' unless there's more than one eye witness, video tape or some firm evidence you can eye-ball. Being an innocent on Death Row would drive anyone to drink, especially if they'd got it wrong or some bar steward set you up.

It's a toughie.

What if they're gaga? If their brain is fried why keep them alive? Chuck that one in the mix.

Eye witnesses are amongst the least reliable source of fact, especially with regards to violent events. Even less reliable months or years later when called on to produce testomony. I wouldn't care to trust my life to eye witnesses, I'd be even less happy with written testomony taken by the police at the time.

That's my biggest disappointment with current policing operational policy, the emphasis on the requirement of a successful conviction. It should be focused on successful discovery of evidence.

How many of you have been exposed to charges arising from a partly or completely constructed official statement, (and invariable subsequent conviction?) It's way too common, particularly with regards to traffic infringements eh? If it's as common as some say the system's arguably rotten at the core, how can we respect that level of corruption?

I'm interested in alternatives to the adversarial judicial system too, too often cases are decided with hugely unevenly resourced representation. The French investigative system is interesting.

[imdying]

better yet ..


Houston Astrodome
family members of the victim
plastic baseball bats
Pay Per View



Best post ever :first:

[Skyryder]

All I can say to those that want the death penalty is to read Trial by Trickery.

If that doesn't change your mind then the only thing that will is to be convicted of a murder that you did not commit.

Skyryder

[onearmedbandit]

better yet ..


Houston Astrodome
family members of the victim
plastic baseball bats
Pay Per View




for the most violent repeat offendes .. abolish the " Cruel and Unusual Punishment " ban.. have a contest for the most creative

Running Man?

[imdying]

Running Man?

Only if it's corrupt like it was in the movie :yes:

[Ocean1]

All I can say to those that want the death penalty is to read Trial by Trickery.

If that doesn't change your mind then the only thing that will is to be convicted of a murder that you did not commit.

Skyryder

Yup, can't pull the trigger if your eyes are closed.

So why aren't you raging about the corruption that makes justice a travesty rather than picking over the inevitable carnage it causes.

[98tls]

All I can say to those that want the death penalty is to read Trial by Trickery.

If that doesn't change your mind then the only thing that will is to be convicted of a murder that you did not commit.

Skyryder All i can say to you is watch your fathers reaction to the phone call telling him his mothers been raped...........theres 2 sides to every coin........

[SARGE]

All I can say to those that want the death penalty is to read Trial by Trickery.

If that doesn't change your mind then the only thing that will is to be convicted of a murder that you did not commit.

Skyryder

yea .. cuz we ALL know that prison is a horrible place with the big Screen TV's . pool tables, health clubs and free medical.. NO one would want to go THERE........ fuck man .. where do i sign?

Housing a prisoner for a year costs how much?
endless therapy sessions that may or may not work and only serve as light entertainment for the convicted cost how much ?
life sentence means 18 years more or less..

you pays your money, you takes your chances .. Prisons should be a horrible place to go. not a nursery school or resort for the criminals.. daily abuse, gruel, sleep deprivation, slave labor and the only TV channel they should get is the fucking TRAVEL NETWORK

crime would drop 99% within days of this being enacted.. fuck human rights .. they took someone elses .. why should they have any?

[Skyryder]

Yup, can't pull the trigger if your eyes are closed.

So why aren't you raging about the corruption that makes justice a travesty rather than picking over the inevitable carnage it causes.


Read the book and enlighten yourself about our justice system. It will 'open' your eyes, believe me.

Skyryder

[Skyryder]

All i can say to you is watch your fathers reaction to the phone call telling him his mothers been raped...........theres 2 sides to every coin........

This sounds like a personal experiance so I will not comment on it.

Skyryder

[Ocean1]

daily abuse, gruel, sleep deprivation, slave labor and the only TV channel they should get is the fucking TRAVEL NETWORK

Luxury, I'd kill for a bowl of nice gruel.

Now when I were a boy...

[Skyryder]

yea .. cuz we ALL know that prison is a horrible place with the big Screen TV's . pool tables, health clubs and free medical.. NO one would want to go THERE........ fuck man .. where do i sign?

Housing a prisoner for a year costs how much?
endless therapy sessions that may or may not work and only serve as light entertainment for the convicted cost how much ?
life sentence means 18 years more or less..

you pays your money, you takes your chances .. Prisons should be a horrible place to go. not a nursery school or resort for the criminals.. daily abuse, gruel, sleep deprivation, slave labor and the only TV channel they should get is the fucking TRAVEL NETWORK

crime would drop 99% within days of this being enacted.. fuck human rights .. they took someone elses .. why should they have any?



Read the book Sarge. The crown spent over two million dollars on the Watson investigation. That sort of money would convict the man in the moon if Pope so wished 'There but for fortune go I.' One of lifes more sobering cliches.

Skyyrder

[SARGE]

Read the book Sarge. The crown spent over two million dollars on the Watson investigation. That sort of money would convict the man in the moon if Pope so wished 'There but for fortune go I.' One of lifes more sobering cliches.

Skyyrder

they spent that much on OJ too...

and thats US$

now hes searching Golf courses around the world looking for the "REAL" killer

[Skyryder]

Eye witnesses are amongst the least reliable source of fact, especially with regards to violent events. Even less reliable months or years later when called on to produce testomony. I wouldn't care to trust my life to eye witnesses, I'd be even less happy with written testomony taken by the police at the time.

That's my biggest disappointment with current policing operational policy, the emphasis on the requirement of a successful conviction. It should be focused on successful discovery of evidence.

How many of you have been exposed to charges arising from a partly or completely constructed official statement, (and invariable subsequent conviction?) It's way too common, particularly with regards to traffic infringements eh? If it's as common as some say the system's arguably rotten at the core, how can we respect that level of corruption?

I'm interested in alternatives to the adversarial judicial system too, too often cases are decided with hugely unevenly resourced representation. The French investigative system is interesting.

One of the better posts on this subject. Plenty here bitch and moan about the police lying over traffic infringments. Just hope these are not the ones advocating the death penalty.

Bling on the way

Skyryder

[Ocean1]

Read the book and enlighten yourself about our justice system. It will 'open' your eyes, believe me.

Skyryder

I may.

Your comment suggested we shouldn't attempt to correct criminal behaviour because our justice system isn't capable of convicting only the guilty.

I can't accept the conclusion, I'm afraid justice requires a high level of fidelity from the constabulary and the courts. I require it. In accepting less we admit that we live in a dangerously dysfunctional society.

[SARGE]

Only if it's corrupt like it was in the movie :yes:



Survivor with Serial Killers ..

call it " NO SURVIVORS"



" im sorry .. the cellblock has spoken."

[98tls]

This sounds like a personal experiance so I will not comment on it.

Skyryder comment all you like mate......no problem..........and i accept that everybody is entilted to theres blah blah..............but take a minute and think of someone wonderful,very old,very wise,and very very helpless.......then think of some piece of shit bashing her..........i cant for the life of me no matter how deep i search think of one possible redeeming feature that that person may have..........ive chuckled at some of the comments ive read in this thread.......in no way am i god but still the word niave springs to mind.........thats putting it politely.

[Street Gerbil]

"Merciful to the wicked is wicked to the merciful" --- Maymonides.
Sometimes justice can be only served by terminating one's life.
Not to mention that despite popular opinion, it is a deterrence.

[Sanx]

For some reason, people are stating the death penalty is the only way to prevent re-offending. It isn't. If they don't get out of jail again, they can't re-offend. But if you execute them, they can never get released should they later be shown to be innocent.

[candor]

No strong feeling but some thoughts...

I reckon its an exceptionally good idea for sadistic serial killers (and maybe animal torturers) given incontrovertible evidence as they are incurable and completely without justification to be breathing

Not such a good idea for other offenders like rapists as they'll see this as a good reason to conceal the body forever - or to kill those they might not have or to finish of the half dead. Have to think of impact on victims no1.

Still I do believe other sadistic offenders than serial killers might well be sterilised - that would deter as it strikes at the heart of their ego. Figured that one out as a rapist freak I know got cursed in his (Maori) culture to have no kids and it literally was the greatest punishment for an egomaniac like him. He told me plaintively that the curse (which apparently worked) had ruined his life, ha ha.

My approach to philosophy on this DP thing is prolly based on two values I gained as a kid.

- Shoot mad animals humanely, better all round; and maybe they'll reincarnate in a better form as an Asian friend I've discussed it with believes (this helps them accept death penalties as sensible and natural over there)

- the law of the least amount of casualties, which is one often exemplified by the work of professional assassin; I have met and admired some for carrying the guilt that goes with getting your hands dirty for the greater good.

Clearly it would be the greater of two evils if one was to meet Hitler in the dark alley in Nazi Germany and one had a silencer gun and he had no body guards and one did not "seize the day".

I could see a termination in this circumstance as being highly altruistic. And I know the guilt would be hard to live with if one did not have the balls do the right thing too, just because of some pre-programmed little concerns about ones immortal soul burning in hell or other such selfish thoughts instilled by social control agents like the Sunday school teacher.

It does not surprise that some of the worst degenerates are happy to get DP - its a natural progression as they are so aggro / violent really as they are displacing their own self loathing onto others. I think they instinctively know they are POS's and will never get satisfaction out of life. So I guess give them what they want and wish them better luck on the other side.

The DP can also help with forgiveness on the part of victims too. I know many victims never truly rest in peace till their persecutors carc it. Its tough knowing a piece of malevolence walks the earth and is still doing its thing.

My definition of forgiveness - accepting that events/ things / situations / offenders could never ever have been or happened any other way, because you understand why they happened the way they did.

It has little relation to apologies or offenders reforming or making amends. The only way DP could deprive victims of forgiveness I can see is if it prevented victims or their loved ones from questioning things they need to to understand (really deeply) why the offender acted how they did in the critical moment.

Sometimes that can take face to face interaction and sometimes it can take a few years for victim or offender to be ready to talk or listen (the connection remains till understanding enters and you can go "ah hah - in your shoes I too would have been a psychokiller etc").

If my "offender" (attempted killer etc etc) was killed I'd have missed the chance to talk years later in jail which was very good for me, if my Mothers killer had been euthanased as I earlier may have supported that would be another lost opportunity. He refuses to talk to me but one day he will not - he needs to be alive for that.

[janno]

Not to mention that despite popular opinion, it is a deterrence.

Don't agree with that - I'd say crims either think they are waaay too clever to get caught, or are so fired up in the moment or whacked out on whatever that they don't think about getting caught.


Just as an aside - does anyone know what percentage of violent crime the States have per capita compared to here?

[ManDownUnder]

I've been thinking though......alive innocents in jail cant parent their children either can they? That is a suck arguement MDU, may as well kill them from the start?

Yaaaa - not really ... there is always hope. Appeals, future technologies and I think I would rather my folks were alive in Prison than dead and gone with no hope of ever.

Let's say the real bad guy gets caught 20 years hence... what happens then?

[Lias]

Better one innocent man die than nine criminals walk among us. :done:

Fucking Ay!


I'm against reoffending. All the people who are killed are innocent... and there's a damn sight more of them.

On the whole, the damage to society is less if 1 innocent man is executed than if 9 guilty men are let free to reoffend. The good of society as a whole has to come first.


I don't believe true forgiveness is dead mate :no: I wouldn't want to believe that.

If your wife and daughter were raped in front of you, then killed themselves because they cant live with it, would you ever be able to forgive the offenders? I couldnt.. Maybe your a better man than I am gunga din...


better yet ..

Houston Astrodome
family members of the victim
plastic baseball bats
Pay Per View

for the most violent repeat offendes .. abolish the " Cruel and Unusual Punishment " ban.. have a contest for the most creative

Running Man?

Hell yeah.. I'd pay to watch :-) Then again I think all sport that ISNT blood sport should be banned.. Bring on the bloodbowl :-P



fuck human rights .. they took someone elses .. why should they have any?

Cannot agree more.. When someone commits an act so serious they need to be excluded from society, they lose the rights that a member of that society could normally expect. Including the right to continue living in some circumstances. Like damn near any sexual offending or child abuse, murder, and burning the flag...

I'm very pro death penalty, and also pro "hard labour on bread and water" for prisons in general. I'm all for rehabilitation & community sentences for first timer offenders or very minor stuff, but certainly anything like burglary or armed robbery should see the perp in a quarry on a chain gang for 20+ years. If they live that long..

[SARGE]

Cannot agree more.. When someone commits an act so serious they need to be excluded from society, they lose the rights that a member of that society could normally expect. Including the right to continue living in some circumstances. Like damn near any sexual offending or child abuse, murder, and burning the flag...


1st degree murder .. rape, pedophilia, etc ( class 1 offenses) grab the plastic ball bats .. burning the flag?.. funny enough.. as patriotic as i am about the US Flag .. go ahead and burn it.. freedom of expression and all that .. thats one of the rights myself nd my family have fought for over the past 300 years and i wont squash someones rights to express themselves in any way they see fit as long as it harms no one ..

i WILL however reserve MY right to freedom of expression and let them know what I think of the fact they are doing that i wont be PC about it either ..

[Lias]

1st degree murder .. rape, pedophilia, etc ( class 1 offenses) grab the plastic ball bats .. burning the flag?.. funny enough.. as patriotic as i am about the US Flag .. go ahead and burn it.. freedom of expression and all that .. thats one of the rights myself nd my family have fought for over the past 300 years and i wont squash someones rights to express themselves in any way they see fit as long as it harms no one ..

i WILL however reserve MY right to freedom of expression and let them know what I think of the fact they are doing that i wont be PC about it either ..

Ok Ok my tounge might have been in my cheek when I said that.. just a little bit .. Does seriously piss me off when they do that thou . Dont like the govt? I mean who does.. But desecrating the flag that so many of our forefathers have died for is just something that really gets up my left testicle..

[SARGE]

Ok Ok my tounge might have been in my cheek when I said that.. just a little bit .. Does seriously piss me off when they do that thou . Dont like the govt? I mean who does.. But desecrating the flag that so many of our forefathers have died for is just something that really gets up my left testicle..

well.. most of the protesters cant or wont do anything tangible about something so al they can do it " protest" (ie: bitch).. thats their right.. who am i to say " go get a govt job and change things? .. " anti-abortion protesters, animal rights protesters, anti-war etc.. let them go nuts ..long as it dont get violent .. go hard .. the second it goes south.. get the water cannons out

for the real lowlife bastards .. open up a Gitmo-Style Gulag, the "beyond the reasonable doubt" guys ( confessed, DNA proof, busted red handed etc) why waste time on appeals?..get it over with and stop wasting everyones time and money.

[Winston001]

I'm currently reading the biography of Albert Pierrepoint, the last executioner in England. The film about him has just been released. Chilling stuff.

Pierrepoint was a dignified man who treated condemned fellons with humanity. Far from being a bloodthirsty macho person, he saw himself as a necessary servant of the judicial system, whose job it was to execute prisoners with the minimum of delay and fuss.

Interestingly he says that no executioner was compelled - if they had doubts about a particular case, they simply said they weren't available and another did the job.

I hadn't realised but there was a list of executioners rather than one for the whole of England.

Hanging - if done well, and this was a point of pride for Pierrepoint - was quick. He relates a hanging where the prisoner left the cell on the first toll of the 8:00am bell, and was dead by the last toll.

I'd always considered hanging as barbaric but am reconsidering that. Done scientifically, it is instant.

[SARGE]

I'd always considered hanging as barbaric but am reconsidering that. Done scientifically, it is instant.

unlike some of the victims deaths im sure

the fear of death is not enough to dissuade some if thy know it will be quick and painless.. the threat of a horrible death however, should make someone think twice.

" i killed this child and have been sentenced to go to sleep with a lethal injection.. thats not so bad .."

however..

"I killed this child and i will now face having the sentence carried out in EXACTLY the same way i killed him with all the fear and pain i inflicted on that child..."

i'd think twice ..

whatever happened to " let the punishment fit the crime"?

[jazbug5]

Trouble is, they aren't thinking like a rational person. They'll kill that kid anyway. Maybe even they will be more likely to kill, if they even think about the consequences to that degree: why leave a witness?

[Patrick]

Do you really believe that someone that fucks children will get over it by talking about it........therapy.........:zzzz:If you truely do then you need to climb out from under the rock and see a bit of life....but then again i guess you would take the therapy option.........

Agreed... check out the real world some time soon...


A "beyond doubt" capital offence - death penalty.
Circumstantial evidence only - life

beat me to it... degrees of punishment.

Who would say BURTON or the Prison Van arsewipes are innocent???? Why should they live??? What will they contribute to society??? What have they contributed to society??? End it now... save $$$ now...


yea .. cuz we ALL know that prison is a horrible place with the big Screen TV's . pool tables, health clubs and free medical.. NO one would want to go THERE........ fuck man .. where do i sign?

Housing a prisoner for a year costs how much?
endless therapy sessions that may or may not work and only serve as light entertainment for the convicted cost how much ?
life sentence means 18 years more or less..

you pays your money, you takes your chances .. Prisons should be a horrible place to go. not a nursery school or resort for the criminals.. daily abuse, gruel, sleep deprivation, slave labor and the only TV channel they should get is the fucking TRAVEL NETWORK

crime would drop 99% within days of this being enacted.. fuck human rights .. they took someone elses .. why should they have any?

Now there is a good post.....:rockon:


comment all you like mate......no problem..........and i accept that everybody is entilted to theres blah blah..............but take a minute and think of someone wonderful,very old,very wise,and very very helpless.......then think of some piece of shit bashing her..........i cant for the life of me no matter how deep i search think of one possible redeeming feature that that person may have..........ive chuckled at some of the comments ive read in this thread.......in no way am i god but still the word niave springs to mind.........thats putting it politely.

Gotta spead the bling, blah blah...:yes:

[SARGE]

Maybe even they will be more likely to kill, if they even think about the consequences to that degree: why leave a witness?



you dont watch CSI do you? who needs an eyewitness when you have DNA evidence, Trace, Crime Scene Reconstruction and various other scientific methods of determining who where, why and how?

eyewitnesses, by there very nature, can and often are wrong or mistaken of blocking or whatever reason

science dont lie ( although sometimes the results are up for interpretation)

the survival instinct over-rides almost everything in ALL animals.. you may not be thinking rationally , BUT in the back of your mind you KNOW that in killing / raping etc ..is going to cost you your life and it WONT be a quick painless death

[Patrick]

Read the book and enlighten yourself about our justice system. It will 'open' your eyes, believe me.

Skyryder

cases you mention are not "clear cut, death to the infidel"... agreed... but Everything costs... Large amounts of Watsons $$ went toward that sonar unit. Millions are spent on unsolved murders and to suggest that someone will be fitted up is laughable... there would be no unsolved murders...


unlike some of the victims deaths im sure

the fear of death is not enough to dissuade some if thy know it will be quick and painless.. the threat of a horrible death however, should make someone think twice.

" i killed this child and have been sentenced to go to sleep with a lethal injection.. thats not so bad .."

however..

"I killed this child and i will now face having the sentence carried out in EXACTLY the same way i killed him with all the fear and pain i inflicted on that child..."

i'd think twice ..

whatever happened to " let the punishment fit the crime"?

You need to become the head honcho of corrections...!!! Could I have a top job???

[Ocean1]

You need to become the head honcho of corrections...!!! Could I have a top job???

While we're on the subject has anyone ever personally met a "corrected" individual?

I'm not talking about the drunk kid who got into a fight and upon "mature" reflection (and the realisation that nobody's impressed) decided it was a bad move. I'm talking about the percentage of career criminals who go straight and stay straight.

Anyone?

[FREE2B]

prisons should be places of punishment not luxury appartments and life sentences exactly that...for life. but heres another thought, in the worst of cases why not give them access to a DIY option ... when youve had enough heres your out just swallow this pill. it would get rid of a few and the innocently imprisoned would still be able to stay round to clear there names...

[Winston001]

While we're on the subject has anyone ever personally met a "corrected" individual?

I'm not talking about the drunk kid who got into a fight and upon "mature" reflection (and the realisation that nobody's impressed) decided it was a bad move. I'm talking about the percentage of career criminals who go straight and stay straight.


I've met a few. Generally they are people who get tired of being in trouble all of the time and decide to go straight. It is a process of maturity and doesn't happen to young offenders much.

The other point is usually they have met a decent woman who has settled them down, or a family member/older friend whom they respect has changed their way of thinking.

[Winston001]

All I can say to those that want the death penalty is to read Trial by Trickery.

If that doesn't change your mind then the only thing that will is to be convicted of a murder that you did not commit.


This book is about the Scott Watson case. I haven't read it but have just read a review. In summary, the reviewer says that the book raises some valid and disquieting questions. However he also notes that it is full of the authors opinions which are at times pesky and uninformed.

[Patrick]

While we're on the subject has anyone ever personally met a "corrected" individual?

I'm not talking about the drunk kid who got into a fight and upon "mature" reflection (and the realisation that nobody's impressed) decided it was a bad move. I'm talking about the percentage of career criminals who go straight and stay straight.

Anyone?

Yep, "meeting" them all the time... they get released and go straight... to the tinnie house, to the house to burgle, to the secluded carpark to steal, whatever...

Seriously, they do exist, but are an extremely rare breed. Most are considered low level crooks who come good.

[Patrick]

the book raises some valid and disquieting questions. However he also notes that it is full of the authors opinions which are at times pesky and uninformed.

Exactly....

It is NOT the bible, Skyrider.... or are you the author, touting for sales????

[007XX]

you dont watch CSI do you? who needs an eyewitness when you have DNA evidence, Trace, Crime Scene Reconstruction and various other scientific methods of determining who where, why and how?

eyewitnesses, by there very nature, can and often are wrong or mistaken of blocking or whatever reason

science dont lie ( although sometimes the results are up for interpretation)

the survival instinct over-rides almost everything in ALL animals.. you may not be thinking rationally , BUT in the back of your mind you KNOW that in killing / raping etc ..is going to cost you your life and it WONT be a quick painless death

Damnit!!! I got told I couldn't give you any bling....But I sooooo want to for this post :mad: Aaargh..frustration!

Anyway, I'm sorry folks if that doesn't agree with all. But anyone that was ever to touch my kid would die of the slowest, most painful death my little brain could come up with...

If you're sick enough to hurt a child, you don't deserve the oxygen you're breathing, full stop!

I come from a family of people who were in the business of the law and my unle was a psychiatrist...
All I can say is : rehabilitation my butt!

I don't know if anyone recalls a couple of years back, a preschool was held at gun point by some sickos in Russia (I think). Anyway, one of the little ones was photographed after just being freed and it made the cover of the Times...standing in his undies, with the most abject look of fear on his face, crying his eyes out...

This picture is still, to this day, fresh in my mind and makes me want to crush the bastard(s) who did this!

Sorry if I seem a bit aggressive...I'll go and hit a wall or something!:argh: :ar15:

[Winter]

For.

It would certainly stop them getting out of jail 2/5/10 years later and re-offending.

Its cheaper than jail.

And to me, the thought of death by public beheading scares me alot more than the thought of going to an underfloor-heated-plasma-tv'd jail cell. I'd like to think it would be a deterrant.


People convicted of lesser crimes (not warranting death) should be forced to sit front row center as the guys head gets ripped off. That'd learn em.

[Patrick]

In case some don't realise... I'm for, in certain cases, where there is absolutely no doubts what so ever... none of that reasonable stuff, absolute! (Like BURTON and Van shit kicker.. for example...)

[oldrider]

How many of you out there are lawyers?

I ask because the common denominator in crime statistics over my lifetime seem to be directly associated with the influx of lawyers into our society.

The equivalent could be said of the growth and decline of rabbits and rabbit boards, church and sinners etc, one begets the other.

If there were no criminals why would we need lawyers and their super ego, judges!

Every time there is a major crime event, we are subjected to the same brace of opinionated lawyers spouting their nonsense on the TV!

They are always supporting the rights of the poor oppressed villain, never the rights of the genuinely "poor" bloody victim.

There is not much money to be made from victims, whereas criminals are a growth opportunity

We the taxpayers pay for them (lawyers) to hit the gravy train big time!

It's called "legal aid" these days.

Personally, I think lawyers are a blot on our community and have a lot to answer for. :yes: John.

[Paul in NZ]

Being (in the most basic terms) a 'christian' society we have to believe in redemption because it is fundemental to our belief system. The death penalty is thus abhorent to us and yet - evil people do exist and are rarely ever reformed... Is this the fault of the system or are some people just plain born BAD? Again, being born bad is not something most religions are comfortable with, we are created in gods image so how can you be born bad or evil?

Nature or nurture? What creates a criminal (no - not speeders or over parkers but seriously bad killers etc) and more importantly what should we do once these people are identified?

Having won WW2 and thus vilified Mr Hitler and co it does not sit well with us to stop the bastards breeding or profiling a group disposed towards antisocial behaviour so instead we fall to our fundementals and belief in redemption. of course we can reform them - we just have to try harder..... Perhaps....

Or perhaps, we are just civilising ourselves into the grave as a society, lacking the barbarians at the gate we have found a way to create them internally.

I believe self reliance, manners, courtesy, selflessness and self discipline are the cornerstones of harmonious society and I see no reason to excuse extreme behaviour. At times, some individuals go so far over the line of acceptable behaviour that there is simply no alternative but to remove them permanently from society - the law allows for this BUT as a society are we willing to take that penalty to its logical extreme - I suspect not. This is one time I disagree with society because it is my considered opinion that religion should not come into it - acts are committed that are beyond the pale and should be avenged.

I support the death penalty as long as we also have degrees of murder and a solid appeal system.

[Macktheknife]

I have said it before and I say it again, DEATH to those who are repeat serious offenders. No excuses, no appeals, no mercy. If you have killed/raped/savagely beaten others 3 times (for example) end of the line buddy- you get off here.
I don't care what has happened to them as a child, youth, adult, etc; you do this and get a chance to go straight after serving time done the old fashioned way- hard. But you get this chance once or maybe twice in exceptional circumstances. 3rd time? I don't think so Tim.
People say it is not a detterent, you are correct but it is not meant to be a deterrent. It is meant to be for the rest of us to sleep at night and know that these freaks are not out there doing it again and we don't have to pay even more for their behaviour.
It costs over $75,000 per prisoner, per year in New Zealand to incarcerate people, plus costs and privileges. I think a much better use of that money should be to save the ones that can be; educate everyone to the best of our ability; ensure our hospitals are well equipped and staffed; provide good parenting courses; and get rid of the deadweight.
I have no issue with releasing the rest of society from the burden of these complete scumbags. In fact lets make them useful in death at least and use the organs for transplants where suitable, and sell whatever we cannot use, should help to defray the costs of their initial imprisonment.
Before anyone asks, yes I am serious.
I do not say this for any single offence, just for the ones who have shown they are not fit to be part of our society several times.

[SARGE]

did i miss a news story on NZ bringing in the DP?

[Ocean1]

Being (in the most basic terms) a 'christian' society we have to believe in redemption because it is fundemental to our belief system. The death penalty is thus abhorent to us and yet - evil people do exist and are rarely ever reformed... Is this the fault of the system or are some people just plain born BAD? Again, being born bad is not something most religions are comfortable with, we are created in gods image so how can you be born bad or evil?

Nature or nurture? What creates a criminal (no - not speeders or over parkers but seriously bad killers etc) and more importantly what should we do once these people are identified?

Having won WW2 and thus vilified Mr Hitler and co it does not sit well with us to stop the bastards breeding or profiling a group disposed towards antisocial behaviour so instead we fall to our fundementals and belief in redemption. of course we can reform them - we just have to try harder..... Perhaps....

Or perhaps, we are just civilising ourselves into the grave as a society, lacking the barbarians at the gate we have found a way to create them internally.

I believe self reliance, manners, courtesy, selflessness and self discipline are the cornerstones of harmonious society and I see no reason to excuse extreme behaviour. At times, some individuals go so far over the line of acceptable behaviour that there is simply no alternative but to remove them permanently from society - the law allows for this BUT as a society are we willing to take that penalty to its logical extreme - I suspect not. This is one time I disagree with society because it is my considered opinion that religion should not come into it - acts are committed that are beyond the pale and should be avenged.

I support the death penalty as long as we also have degrees of murder and a solid appeal system.

Religious beliefs are relevant only for those whose faith precludes killing.
I don’t recognise any other valid reason to withhold any means that represents the minimum required to separate violent offenders from my family.

I don’t care about redemption, correction or why the offenders behave as they do. If you are interested in any of those things then join the church/charity/psych course or support group of your choice, and pay the costs of your hobby yourself.

For the rest of the tribe it’s a simple cost/benefit calculation: Is this person going to behave violently again? If the answer is yes then the tribe’s best interests are served by removing him from the tribe. It’s neither revenge or an attempt to rehabilitate them, I’m not interested in either, by the time they’re in that position they’ve had enough charity, no more chances.

You don’t have to kill them, it’s far cheaper but you can lock them up if you’re squeamish or if your god forbids you to kill. Even then I don’t see any reason why they should continue to be a burden on the tribe, they can have whatever secure accommodation and benefits they can afford. The whole point is to remove them as a member of our tribe because they not only failed to contribute they caused harm, why should we work to support them?

[Skyryder]

This book is about the Scott Watson case. I haven't read it but have just read a review. In summary, the reviewer says that the book raises some valid and disquieting questions. However he also notes that it is full of the authors opinions which are at times pesky and uninformed.

Who is the reviewer? The one I read is by a lawyer. My daughter bought it home from her work. It's also interesting that Pope will not respond to the book. Just read the book then make up your own mind on whether Watson is innocent or guilty.

Skyryder

[scumdog]

I've said it before: 'Smoking gun' murders (where the offender is caught in the act of the evidence is so compelling and overwhelming - not just circumstancial) should be death.

For those not comfortable with that all I can say is:
If YOU want them kept alive YOU pay for their existence - I sure as hell don't want to waste my good tax money keeping a waste of space alive for 10 to 20 years.

[Hitcher]

Ahh, but taxpayers don't get the right to decide how their taxes should be allocated. Otherwise my hard-earned contributions to the Gummint's coffers would be funding a Royal New Zealand Armoured Corps with proper armour! And motorcycle-only roads. And free beer for the over-50s.

[jazbug5]

you dont watch CSI do you?


Oh.. you mean all those flashy graphics and clever computer programmes that tell you who the baddie is in the amount of time it takes to toast a slice of bread actually do exist? Oh, goodie.

No, actually- a fair point in some ways, but DNA evidence requires there to be DNA left behind. Certains types of revolting murderer who plan these things have also been watching CSI, and know all about fingernails and the removal of fibres and hairs. From what I understand, DNA testing actually takes absolutely ages and is prohibitively expensive. Can any of the police officers here tell us how often DNA is recovered and tested? And how long it can potentially take? Then it depends on a match, which partly depends upon luck etc, by which time the f*cker could well have been having a lovely time for years...

The thing is- most murders and most child abuse/murder cases (and that's the one that really gets everyone's blood boiling) are perpetrated by people known to the victim- in fact, they are most often family members.
They won't be getting executed, you know. They will most likely cop a temporary insanity plea. For me, this is a current concern as my good mate's two children were murdered two weeks ago by a close family member. We are waiting to hear this used in the defense, and it's BS. I've thought a lot since about whether this is going to change my opinion on the death penalty (just personally, I can't talk for the remaining family). As much as I want this person to suffer for what they did, I still remain very uncomfortable with appointing the state as executioner. How many of us think that the state is God-like and infallible in its doings? Do we want to give it the power of life and death?

Murder and other dark, 'bestial' acts are frightening and confusing; certainty and moral absolutism often seem to offer security of a sort... but at what price? We can't just 'clean away the evil'. It seems to be part of our species, unfortunately, on a very primal level.

[SARGE]

Oh.. you mean all those flashy graphics and clever computer programmes that tell you who the baddie is in the amount of time it takes to toast a slice of bread actually do exist? Oh, goodie.

No, actually- a fair point in some ways, but DNA evidence requires there to be DNA left behind. Certains types of revolting murderer who plan these things have also been watching CSI, and know all about fingernails and the removal of fibres and hairs. From what I understand, DNA testing actually takes absolutely ages and is prohibitively expensive. Can any of the police officers here tell us how often DNA is recovered and tested? And how long it can potentially take? Then it depends on a match, which partly depends upon luck etc, by which time the f*cker could well have been having a lovely time for years...




no .. the flash graphics and stuff are Hollywood bullshit, but the science behind them is real enough..and i dont believe that DNA testing is prohibitively expensive NOR does it take forever ( in a first world country)..

there is no longer such a thing as the "perfect" crime.. somewhere along the line.. the perp WILL leave a trail of breadcrumbs for those who know what to look for will find.. weather its a DNA Sample, a fingerprint, an eyelash, a shoe print or a picture on an ATM Machine Camera.

all it takes is dedicated, well funded and supplied and well motivated police officers and Crime Scene Investigators..

how many times has your house been broken into and the cops take DAYS to respond?.. i dont know about you , but i have 3 very touchy-feely kids that will totally fuck a crime scene in 20 minutes if it isnt roped off..

[Ocean1]

Ahh, but taxpayers don't get the right to decide how their taxes should be allocated. Otherwise my hard-earned contributions to the Gummint's coffers would be funding a Royal New Zealand Armoured Corps with proper armour! And motorcycle-only roads. And free beer for the over-50s.

Hitcher for President!!

What about some aircraft for the flyboys... and free whiskey for the over 60s?

[Skyryder]

there is no longer such a thing as the "perfect" crime.. somewhere along the line.. the perp WILL leave a trail of breadcrumbs for those who know what to look for will find.. weather its a DNA Sample, a fingerprint, an eyelash, a shoe print or a picture on an ATM Machine Camera.

all it takes is dedicated, well funded and supplied and well motivated police officers and Crime Scene Investigators..


The perfect crime is an unsolved crime. There's plenty of them here in Godzone. Mind you when Popes is the Police Commissioner he'll just fit someone up so has to increase the clearance stats and get a knight hood for his troubles.

Skyryder

[rwh]

Yeah funny that; we noticed on some lame cops and robbers show the other night (Motor Way Patrol or something) that some native in a yellow Anglia was carting passengers on a restricted, no WOF, no Rego and he was given a sticker to go home and get it sorted. WTF? If that'd been you or me (bro) we'd be looking at about a grand! If that's not racist I dunno what is. That level is where a lot of shit starts.

Don't think it's racist. Saw the same thing a few weeks ago with a couple of white kids in a clapped out Torana. I think it's more about trying to raise the public perception of the cops - pity it's only in the eyes of the criminals.

Richard

[SARGE]

The perfect crime is an unsolved crime. There's plenty of them here in Godzone. Mind you when Popes is the Police Commissioner he'll just fit someone up so has to increase the clearance stats and get a knight hood for his troubles.

Skyryder

this poor girl who was found off Hillsboro 2 years ago in a park.. 60 suspects ??? FFS..

and 2 years later they PUT UP POSTERS!

how bout dragging 58 of the suspects into the station and violating a few civil rights?.. there is a 3 year old boy without a mom because of this ..

shamefull

[scumdog]

You're all more cynical than I!!

AND are expecting a Thunderbird performance on an Escort budget.

[Ocean1]

You're all more cynical than I!!

AND are expecting a Thunderbird performance on an Escort budget.

My expectations are heavily coloured by my experiences with the local constabulary in the deep south when I was a kid.

One of the local cops always turned up at school rugby practice.

Truancy was rare, the local cops would see you more often than not and escort you home by the ear.

The black Mariah waited in the pub car park at closing time, not to ping transgressors but to give the few die-hard regulars a lift home.

Every second Friday they'd track uncle George down mid evening and put him in the cell for the night, (tough job, usually took three of them). In the morning they’d feed him and send him home. This was the same guy they’d call if they needed a search boat down the coast, at no charge.

The kid up the road got caught riding a "borrowed" pushbike, summary sentence was cutting all the firewood the widow down the road needed for a month.

Unworkable today? Probably.
What's the difference between then and now? Respect, we respected the authority of the men themselves, not their office. And they deserved it.

Oh there was the odd arsehole in the local station but even they had the basic cultural principles hard wired: they were there for the community, not the force. If a bit of applied "natural justice" could teach a boy that there are always consequences then maybe he's less likely to encounter the official version a few years later.

How can we respect the current enforcement policies? Who are they designed to benefit? What are those members of the police who put a successful conviction ahead of honesty teaching us about how we should behave?

I doubt the change I've seen in the way our police carry out their jobs has much to do with budget. Maybe it's a response to a less disciplined, less considerate population.

So, which happened first, the chicken or the egg? There's a saying that always grates with me: "Don't sweat the small stuff".
I wonder if we understood our place, learned our responsibilities better when the local cops paid more attention to the small stuff, before it got serious.

[kro]

I have debated this elsewhere and it has always divided whole Kingdoms and set friend against friend wife against husband, and idiot against politician.

On the surface I am against it, but I can not honestly say what I would do if some mangy piece of shite took the life of one of my family, and was shown on TV sticking his tongue out, smiling, and waving to the reporters. I think at that point, the father in me would go apeshit, and scream veangeance.

My question would be , do you think harsher "deterrents" will bring the crime rate down?. Personally, I think they would, and this is a hot topic presently with the "life" sentence topic being thrown about. It seems a large percentage of our country dont think we are hard enough on criminals.

[kro]

I have said it before and I say it again, DEATH to those who are repeat serious offenders. No excuses, no appeals, no mercy. If you have killed/raped/savagely beaten others 3 times (for example) end of the line buddy- you get off here.

While I like 90% of what you said in the whole post Mack, this part I do not like. This is playing roulette with the lives of the good people in society. I am against the chance of giving obvious psychos anything remotely resembling a second chance, and this is where the present penal system fails us, hello Mr Graeme Burton, how on earth did you ever see the light of day again?.

[Paul in NZ]

The perfect crime is an unsolved crime. Skyryder


No - the perfect crime is an undetected one....

[Skyryder]

No - the perfect crime is an undetected one....

No, PNZ if it's undetected it can not be considered a crime. A crime is where there is evedence that an unlawful act has occured. It is 'evidence' that delineates an unlawful act as against a lawful one.

But I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiment. Because there is no evidence does not mean that a crime has not occured. But until evidence is found where that an unlawful act has occured ' no' crime is deemed to have occured. It's a question of semantics as to what constitutes the perfect crime. There is also the school of thought that the perfect crime is one where the perp. of the crime is found not guilty.

But you raise an interesting point. Some perfect crimes are more perfect than others.

[Skyryder]

this poor girl who was found off Hillsboro 2 years ago in a park.. 60 suspects ??? FFS..

and 2 years later they PUT UP POSTERS!

how bout dragging 58 of the suspects into the station and violating a few civil rights?.. there is a 3 year old boy without a mom because of this ..

shamefull


So presumably you don't mind if your civil rights are violated.

Skyryder

[Patrick]

The perfect crime is an unsolved crime. There's plenty of them here in Godzone. Mind you when Popes is the Police Commissioner he'll just fit someone up so has to increase the clearance stats and get a knight hood for his troubles.

Skyryder

I take the reviewer of the gospel book you are spouting on about is a disgruntled ex legal aid failure of a lawyer who lost a parking ticket case to Pope in his early years and won't let it go...

Facts, not opinions, are what we deal with.... Pope included.

[Patrick]

this poor girl who was found off Hillsboro 2 years ago in a park.. 60 suspects ??? FFS..

and 2 years later they PUT UP POSTERS!

how bout dragging 58 of the suspects into the station and violating a few civil rights?.. there is a 3 year old boy without a mom because of this ..

shamefull

I'm sure Mr Pope will just pick one out of the hat and fit him up, ay Skyrider...:zzzz:

[SARGE]

So presumably you don't mind if your civil rights are violated.

Skyryder



ya gotta break few eggs man .. if i am innocent then i have nothing to lose .. I would rather know that if my family member was murdered then the cops are doing EVERYTHING in their power to get those responsible..

[Skyryder]

ya gotta break few eggs man .. if i am innocent then i have nothing to lose .. I would rather know that if my family member was murdered then the cops are doing EVERYTHING in their power to get those responsible..

I agree Sarge but when they act 'outside' side of their powers they act unlawfully and in doing so become no better than those they are trying convict. The end will never justifies the means.

It's the defining rule that sets those that act within the law and those that do not.

Skyryder

[SARGE]

I agree Sarge but when they act 'outside' side of their powers they act unlawfully and in doing so become no better than those they are trying convict. The end will never justifies the means.

It's the defining rule that sets those that act within the law and those that do not.

Skyryder

then again .. i personally think the Gitmo crew is being too soft on the bastards .. wtf do i know?

[Skyryder]

I take the reviewer of the gospel book you are spouting on about is a disgruntled ex legal aid failure of a lawyer who lost a parking ticket case to Pope in his early years and won't let it go...

Facts, not opinions, are what we deal with.... Pope included.



THE HATCH SCRATCHES.

Opening Crown Address, Nicola Hutchley

But that is not all. Further examination of other parts of the boat found that on the inner lining of the forward hatch - that's a hole in the deck that allows ventilation and light and entry- were 176 scratch marks, consistent in the opinion of a scientist, having been put there by the scratching motion of fingernails.

Most of us are aware of this damming piece of evidence against Watson.

What was not reported in any detail is that Watsons girlfriend said that these scratches were made by Watsons niece. Some of these scratches went right to the edge of the hatch cover and could only have been made if the hatch was open.

The scientist may well have been right that they were made by fingernails.

I can only speculate as to why the Pope believed that these scratches were made by either Smart or Hope when even the rudimentary examination showed otherwise.

Read the book and then come to your own conclusion.

Skyryder

[Winston001]

Who is the reviewer? The one I read is by a lawyer. My daughter bought it home from her work. It's also interesting that Pope will not respond to the book. Just read the book then make up your own mind on whether Watson is innocent or guilty.

Skyryder

Chris Gallivan, University of Canterbury Law Faculty.

There is no need for Pope to respond - he will know the case far more intimately than the author of the book.

I do agree that reading it is best but note the review implied no conclusion could be reached because of the author's bias. That doesn't avoid recognising that Hunter makes good points and raises troubling questions.

The problem is I suggest, almost any criminal case could be minutely examined later, and found to have flaws. Neither judges, juries, prosecutors, or defenders are perfect.

I guess it is a healthy thing that people take an interest.

[SARGE]

a very wise man once told me ..


" believe none of what you hear, 1/2 of what you see and question everything you know to be true.."

[Storm]

Despite emotions telling me otherwise I'd say no. What I would support is finding a small isolated island, ring it with security, and leave the worst there to survive from themselves, completely cut off from civilisation.

I'm with that man 120 %

[Winston001]

THE HATCH SCRATCHES.

.....What was not reported in any detail is that Watsons girlfriend said that these scratches were made by Watsons niece. Some of these scratches went right to the edge of the hatch cover and could only have been made if the hatch was open.

The scientist may well have been right that they were made by fingernails.

I can only speculate as to why the Pope believed that these scratches were made by either Smart or Hope when even the rudimentary examination showed otherwise.

Skyryder

We are a bit OT here but correct me if I'm wrong - wasn't Watson represented at trial? He didn't act as his own lawyer? If the scratch marks were so obviously made when the hatch was open, why wasn't this raised in defence? Why didn't Watson point this out to his own lawyer?

Possibly because there is an explanation which doesn't fit with conspiracy theories.......... But hey - I'm guessing too. :yes:

[Ocean1]

Despite emotions telling me otherwise I'd say no. What I would support is finding a small isolated island, ring it with security, and leave the worst there to survive from themselves, completely cut off from civilisation.

I could support that too.

Let's make it a big island, 'cause there's gona be a bunch of 'em.

Hot too, a sorta half-way-house to Hell.

With fuck all stuff in it, so the've got bugger all to play with.

And lets bung all the weird animals in there too, the poisonous ones and the sharp ones and the plain downright ugly ones.

And we'll have a few human examples there of how bad life can be if you don't like the way we do things in the civilised world.

And we shall call it some assinine name that shows them we really don't give a shit where they are as long as it's not here...

Something like... "Australia"

See what opportunities you miss when you're not paying attention?...

[Skyryder]

We are a bit OT here but correct me if I'm wrong - wasn't Watson represented at trial? He didn't act as his own lawyer? If the scratch marks were so obviously made when the hatch was open, why wasn't this raised in defence? Why didn't Watson point this out to his own lawyer?

Possibly because there is an explanation which doesn't fit with conspiracy theories.......... But hey - I'm guessing too. :yes:


I have no idea as I was not there but those that remember the case will no doubt recall the scratch marks that I have referred to and that it was reported that these were caused by Smart or Hope attempting to escape from Watsons boat. But we seem to be missing the point in that this thread is about the death penalty. I have no doubt that if NZ had the death penallty at the time of the Sounds murder Watson would have been hanged.


Skyryder

[kro]

Reading through some of your posts, you have raised points I quite often overlook when I think about crime and punishment.
There is a staggering amount of money wasted per annum on providing what I would call excessively easy living conditions for prisoners. Of the total, I bet there are some there, whom I would not consider worth the effort.
The Fenced Island idea would work well for these people imo, let them play "last Man Standing" among their kin.

Substance abuse as a "defense" in a court of law. I think this is an area that NZ needs to completely re-vamp, and make any crimes committed "under the influence" of an illegal substance, punishable in the same manner as a non intoxicated criminal. You shoved the needle in your veins/pipe in your mouth, so you don't get to hide behind that in a court of law. Its like they commit 2 heinous crimes, and use one crime to hedge off the severity of punishment of the other, that sux copious amounts of donkey dick imo.

[Patrick]

I have no idea as I was not there but those that remember the case will no doubt recall the scratch marks that I have referred to and that it was reported that these were caused by Smart or Hope attempting to escape from Watsons boat. But we seem to be missing the point in that this thread is about the death penalty. I have no doubt that if NZ had the death penallty at the time of the Sounds murder Watson would have been hanged.


Skyryder

Like I said before, levels of penalties... the scratch marks are not the whole case. From what I recall, even after they washed the entire interior of the boat with bleach (destroys blood and DNA apparently - but who washes out the entire inside of a boat out with bleach????) I believe they found hair from Olivia on a hair brush located inside the boat..., but I could be wrong...

Then again, what has WATSON given to society in the past? As you were....

Even if we have the death penalty, like those in the States for example, who are as guilty as sin are on death row for at least 15 to 20 years, so for those where there is small elements of doubt or any misgivings will be sorted before then...

[98tls]

Reading through some of your posts, you have raised points I quite often overlook when I think about crime and punishment.
There is a staggering amount of money wasted per annum on providing what I would call excessively easy living conditions for prisoners. Of the total, I bet there are some there, whom I would not consider worth the effort, as their minds are fucked up from drugs, and massively traumatic experiences from their murderous rampages.
Substance abuse as a "defense" in a court of law. I think this is an area that NZ needs to completely re-vamp, and make any crimes committed "under the influence" of an illegal substance, punishable in the same manner as a non intoxicated criminal. You shoved the needle in your veins/pipe in your mouth, so you don't get to hide behind that in a court of law. Its like they commit 2 heinous crimes, and use one crime to hedge off the severity of punishment of the other, that sux copious amounts of donkey dick imo. Good post........never heard of it.totally agree with you

[98tls]

Like I said before, levels of penalties... the scratch marks are not the whole case. From what I recall, even after they washed the entire interior of the boat with bleach (destroys blood and DNA apparently - but who washes out the entire inside of a boat out with bleach????) I believe they found hair from Olivia on a hair brush located inside the boat..., but I could be wrong...

Then again, what has WATSON given to society in the past? As you were....

Even if we have the death penalty, like those in the States for example, who are as guilty as sin are on death row for at least 15 to 20 years, so for those where there is small elements of doubt or any misgivings will be sorted before then... Absolutly.........most have seen a clean cut bloke looking totally respectable on the 6 oclock news without knowing anything of his past......watson was a fuck up way before he murdered those two............

[Patrick]

Good post........never heard of it.totally agree with you

Substance abuse is not a defence... shitkicker chooses to take substances, suffer the consequences is the short of it... a bit like a drink driver.... no one else makes them do it..... although most try to point the blame at something, anything...

[98tls]

Substance abuse is not a defence... shitkicker chooses to take substances, suffer the consequences is the short of it... a bit like a drink driver.... no one else makes them do it..... although most try to point the blame at something, anything... yea i guess........how many times must a court have heard "i only killed those 3 people because i was forced to drink all day because i had a flashback of my old man giving me a thick ear when i was seven.....blah blah.I think what also needs to be considered in all this is some of the decisions that some of the judges come to.......drink driving especially....read a court page in any newspaper and its amazing how many smacks on the hand they dish out..people only get punished when they cause carnage,its pathetic..bit like putting the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff.....

[scumdog]

I take the reviewer of the gospel book you are spouting on about is a disgruntled ex legal aid failure of a lawyer who lost a parking ticket case to Pope in his early years and won't let it go...

Facts, not opinions, are what we deal with.... Pope included.

C'mon Patrick, stop praising the guy, he's only a reviewer, not a lawyer.....

[scumdog]

I have no doubt that if NZ had the death penallty at the time of the Sounds murder Watson would have been hanged.


Skyryder

ONLY if there was a blanket death sentence for any murder.

For a situation where there is a degree of murder there is no way Watson would have been sentenced to death.

Unlike the killer of Liam Ashley. (Whose worthless name escapes me)

[98tls]

ONLY if there was a blanket death sentence for any murder.

For a situation where there is a degree of murder there is no way Watson would have been sentenced to death.

Unlike the killer of Liam Ashley. (Whose worthless name escapes me) The killer of young liam will be residing in an upstairs apartment with windows..all to him-self and no doubt be ensuring other liams to once they get out ensure that they do something to get back in......incredible really..go back a century or 2 and they used to put the worthless in a stinking,damp,rancid shithole beneath ground level........these days the worst of the worst get elevated to more comfortable surroundings........:weird:

[Skyryder]

ONLY if there was a blanket death sentence for any murder.

For a situation where there is a degree of murder there is no way Watson would have been sentenced to death.

Unlike the killer of Liam Ashley. (Whose worthless name escapes me)


Watson was convicted of a double killing. Given the attitude of the Judge who by his decisions appeared to have already predetermined guilt it is not unreasonable to conclude that Watson would have been sentanced to death.

Skyryder

[98tls]

Watson was convicted of a double killing. Given the attitude of the Judge who by his decisions appeared to have already predetermined guilt it is not unreasonable to conclude that Watson would have been sentanced to death.

Skyryder I for one would have given a brief grunt of approval and carried on with cleaning my motorcycle inwardly satisfied...............

[Skyryder]

I for one would have given a brief grunt of approval and carried on with cleaning my motorcycle inwardly satisfied...............

Well that's your choice but the thing that worries me is that so many believe that Watson is guilty when a quick look at the evidence that convicted him his is so suspect. It's not just the hatch scratches, but the whole dam police investigation that was corrupt. And that is not a word that I use lightly but that is the only conclusion that I can come to. Pope wanted a conviction at any price. This guy is only one step away from being NZ's top cop. Now that should scare the shit out some here; it does me.


Skyryder

[98tls]

Well that's your choice but the thing that worries me is that so many believe that Watson is guilty when a quick look at the evidence that convicted him his is so suspect. It's not just the hatch scratches, but the whole dam police investigation that was corrupt. And that is not a word that I use lightly but that is the only conclusion that I can come to. Pope wanted a conviction at any price. This guy is only one step away from being NZ's top cop. Now that should scare the shit out some here; it does me.


Skyryder Fair call on the second point......as for the first..watson qualified as as a loser way before the crime hes banged up for happened.......as far as im concerned every dog has there day.......

[Winston001]

Substance abuse as a "defense" in a court of law. I think this is an area that NZ needs to completely re-vamp, and make any crimes committed "under the influence" of an illegal substance, punishable in the same manner as a non intoxicated criminal.

It isn't a defense. It used to be, and was called intoxication or automatism even though drugs were often involved.

But it ain't an excuse in our law today. Where drugs and alcohol are relevant is in sentencing but it won't mean a shorter sentence, instead maybe some help for the problem.

[Skyryder]

Fair call on the second point......as for the first..watson qualified as as a loser way before the crime hes banged up for happened.......as far as im concerned every dog has there day.......


With two million dollars you can turn anyone into a loser. Watson built his own boat. Not my idea of a loser.........sorta seems like someone trying to back back on track.


Skyryder

[Patrick]

With two million dollars you can turn anyone into a loser. Watson built his own boat. Not my idea of a loser.........sorta seems like someone trying to back back on track.


Skyryder

Building a boat makes you a pillar of society??? What about building a bridge???

[98tls]

With two million dollars you can turn anyone into a loser. Watson built his own boat. Not my idea of a loser.........sorta seems like someone trying to back back on track.


Skyryder Hitler built factorys to kill and dispose of people but not many hold him in high esteem either,good on him for building a boat.......but....judge "you have been found guilty of two murders" Watson "yea but hey i built a boat" judge "oh ok...no worrys then" just doesnt work really.......

[Skyryder]

Hitler built factorys to kill and dispose of people but not many hold him in high esteem either,good on him for building a boat.......but....judge "you have been found guilty of two murders" Watson "yea but hey i built a boat" judge "oh ok...no worrys then" just doesnt work really.......

That's about the attitude that convicted him. On his past and twisted evidence that was produced by applying pressure or carrots. It just depended if you were facing charges or wanting lighter ones. Read Hunter's book. No ones wanting you to change your opinion of Watson.............heaven forbid. But at least you will be able to make an informed opinion one way or the other as to his guilt or innocence.

Skyryder

[Patrick]

On his past and twisted evidence that was produced by applying pressure or carrots. Skyryder

His past is not evidence, nor was it "produced." it is presented once found guilty for sentencing purposes.

You appear to be following that "carrot" dangled in front of your nose by this author.......

[98tls]

That's about the attitude that convicted him. On his past and twisted evidence that was produced by applying pressure or carrots. It just depended if you were facing charges or wanting lighter ones. Read Hunter's book. No ones wanting you to change your opinion of Watson.............heaven forbid. But at least you will be able to make an informed opinion one way or the other as to his guilt or innocence.

Skyryder ok i will..havent read anything but bike mags for ages so will do me good to sit down and read a book.....of course if hunters taken the time to write a book then hes obviously got an opinion and no doubt the book will be biased in that opinions direction.......anyways will get it and see what happens eh.

[LBD]

For riding over bridge arches....maybe not...

Child sex offenders, violent rapists, mass murders ...especially multiple or repeat offenders of any of the above....most definately

[LBD]

I just noticed the previous post was July 2007....So why did I just find this thread in "Whats New"?