Media personality

[scumdog]

Who is the erudite, elequent, meek member of this site whose words are featured in the Sunday Star Times?
Telling us that people ignore 80kmh signs and that the boy racer act has achieved nothing? (tell that to the poor sod who has just seen his Skyline towed).
Tune in later for more :shifty:

[Wenier]

Ah comon dont hold back on us, i wanna no now. Seems quite interestin.

[scumdog]

Hint: he is a little reticent in supporting the impedence in our motorbiking progress by those with the ability to do so.

[bluninja]

How is he with irony? :eyepoke:

[bluninja]

Wouldn't want this to turn into a personal attack thread.....how about giving us a short version of the points made and open it to discussion?

[Bob]

Wouldn't want this to turn into a personal attack thread.....how about giving us a short version of the points made and open it to discussion?

Not having seen the letter (living how ever many thousand miles away), I have no idea what was said - and I hate personal attacks! Unless they're really, really valid (like a forum Moko and myself used to use where some little sicko kept on about how he thought motorcycle accident photos were "funny" - not to this person who had spinal surgery to remove a disc or my wife who had reconstructive surgery on her knee they weren't... but I digress...), which is pretty rare - and very unusual for it to be needed on here from my experience so far.

So I'm with bluninja - give us a synopsis of the points made and open up the debate to everyone.

[marty]

i read it too. i'll try and find it and post a link. i notice he's been quiet on here lately.

[scumdog]

For those unable to visit a library (or too broke to buy the paper) the letter was about the failure of the boy racer act and generally how incompetent the money squandering the govt is (that's cutting it down to the minimum) when it comes to road safety.

[scumdog]

How is he with irony? :eyepoke:

Oh yeah, he knows all about irony (or should!) in fact his ranking is black belt. <_<

[Blakamin]

For those unable to visit a library (or too broke to buy the paper) the letter was about the failure of the boy racer act and generally how incompetent the money squandering the govt is (that's cutting it down to the minimum) when it comes to road safety.
More!! havent seen it myself. do you have a link SD?

[vifferman]

Them's some rather obvious clues, Mr scumdog. I know who it is (but haven't read the article).

[marty]

there's no link to sunday star times letters to the editor

[marty]

and i'm still unsure how bleating to a sunday paper will actually get anything rolling in wellington...

[Blakamin]

Dont suppose anyone can scan it??
with the net being on 24/7 in this house, I've given up on buying newspapers!

[mangell6]

Thought it was quite a good letter myself. Nothing incorrect was said.

[What?]

Thought it was quite a good letter myself. Nothing incorrect was said.
Me too.
A local bit of highway with a bad rep for fatals is to have the speed limit dropped from 100 to 80. This in spite of the police telling us the average speed on that section of road is 84K. Stuffed if I can see how that will do anything to reduce the carnage, but getting 16 year-olds in souped-up Mazda rotaries with fucked suspension and no driver training - well, that might make a difference.

[Angry Puppy]

Me too.
A local bit of highway with a bad rep for fatals is to have the speed limit dropped from 100 to 80. This in spite of the police telling us the average speed on that section of road is 84K. Stuffed if I can see how that will do anything to reduce the carnage, but getting 16 year-olds in souped-up Mazda rotaries with fucked suspension and no driver training - well, that might make a difference.

I still say make insurance mandatory. Make Skylines, Supras and WRXs financially prohibitive for the little scrotes.

FB

[Wenier]

i no bout the 100 to 80k part but havent seen this article, and dont no who it is.

[spudchucka]

Who is the erudite, elequent, meek member of this site whose words are featured in the Sunday Star Times?
Telling us that people ignore 80kmh signs and that the boy racer act has achieved nothing? (tell that to the poor sod who has just seen his Skyline towed).
Tune in later for more :shifty:
I guess thats why he's been quiet here for a spell, too busy writing to the papers again.

[Posh Tourer :P]

but getting 16 year-olds in souped-up Mazda rotaries with fucked suspension and no driver training - well, that might make a difference.

You mean if we put them all in cars like that it'll have a long term benefit for our safety on roads?

[Blakamin]

You mean if we put them all in cars like that it'll have a long term benefit for our safety on roads?
Only if they stick to crashing into each other

[Marmoot]

I still say make insurance mandatory. Make Skylines, Supras and WRXs financially prohibitive for the little scrotes.

FB


hey.....what's the thing with supra? :mad:


although I would support age restriction :innocent:
Like.......anyone must be over 27 years old to own a supra :blah:
make it more exclusive......

[marty]

what ever happened to parental responsibility - not allowing their learner/restricted kids to go driving in daddy's flash car? how many of those idiots have had their car impounded? don't forget that you don't get the car impounded for cruising the main looking at girls - they are impounded for acting like idiots - racing/dragging/burnouts etc. there is a young guy in my home town - on a restricted, drives an EH holden wagon, lowered and very tidy. he gets stopped all the time, but has never had a ticket. why? cause he's behaving, not drinking, not racing, no attitude, just cruising. of course, he races 250cc karts on his days off. i guess he gets his kicks in those...

[Mongoose]

what ever happened to parental responsibility - not allowing their learner/restricted kids to go driving in daddy's flash car? how many of those idiots have had their car impounded? don't forget that you don't get the car impounded for cruising the main looking at girls - they are impounded for acting like idiots - racing/dragging/burnouts etc. there is a young guy in my home town - on a restricted, drives an EH holden wagon, lowered and very tidy. he gets stopped all the time, but has never had a ticket. why? cause he's behaving, not drinking, not racing, no attitude, just cruising. of course, he races 250cc karts on his days off. i guess he gets his kicks in those...

Must admit that the boy racing has slowed down some what around here, although some of the donut kings still do it by the state of the street outside my place(some need a hill to roll back for burnouts)

[What?]

You mean if we put them all in cars like that it'll have a long term benefit for our safety on roads?
You know the worst thing about being a pedant, it is having someone else pick up on stuff you have written/said... :buggerd: :beer:

[Slingshot]

If we're talking about the stretch of highway just north of Pukurua Bay being reduced to 80kmph then we shouldn't be talking about boy racers.

If I remember correctly...the speed limit was reduced to 80 after a car driven by an elderly person crashed.

We should be complaining about how unsafe old drivers are, I know the argument from Grey Power is something along the lines of "if you take an elderly person's licence away, you take away their independence". They don't seem to consider the potential loss of independence caused by an incompetent elderly driver.

It's also IMO a little bit hypocritical to complain about boy racers.
Yes, they generally have powerful cars.
Yes, they break the speed limit, at times by large margins.
Yes, when they get together they tend to show off.

But how is that different to us?
Yes, we generally have powerful bikes.
Yes, we break the speed limit, at times by large margins.
Yes, when we get together we tend to show off.

Disclaimer: The above comments are VERY broad generalisations. I've written this to provoke discussion, not to have a go at any minority group.

[Marmoot]

It's also IMO a little bit hypocritical to complain about boy racers.
Yes, they generally have powerful cars.
Yes, they break the speed limit, at times by large margins.
Yes, when they get together they tend to show off.

But how is that different to us?
Yes, we generally have powerful bikes.
Yes, we break the speed limit, at times by large margins.
Yes, when we get together we tend to show off.


You got a point there, mate.....you got a point.
To some extent I agree with ya
:wacko:

[Mongoose]

You got a point there, mate.....you got a point.
To some extent I agree with ya
:wacko:

I agree to a point too, show off days for me are over, way too much Murphys LAw out there for me. :eek:

[Marmoot]

I agree to a point too, show off days for me are over, way too much Murphys LAw out there for me. :eek:


LOL.....
so much for a discussion if everybody agrees
:blah:

[White trash]

Not me! I never show off. All those "Riverbank carpark" types are a drain on society. Doin' wheelies and burnouts and generally larking about.

Bad news, I tell ya, bad news. They'll come unstuck one day.

[Ghost Lemur]

Not me! I never show off. All those "Riverbank carpark" types are a drain on society. Doin' wheelies and burnouts and generally larking about.

Bad news, I tell ya, bad news. They'll come unstuck one day.

I heard the ring leader has come unstuck a few times already. :Pokey:

[White trash]

I heard the ring leader has come unstuck a few times already. :Pokey:

You must be fucken joking!! I've NEVER come unstuck

[Slingshot]

Speaking of the riverbank...is it on every Thursday? And what time?

[jrandom]

Speaking of the riverbank...is it on every Thursday? And what time?

:whistle: Take me to the riiiiiiveerrrrrrrr... :whistle:

[Slingshot]

Don't give up your day job. :)

[White trash]

Speaking of the riverbank...is it on every Thursday? And what time?

The boy racers are there every Thurs. I'm only there during daylight savings.

[Lou Girardin]

Yeah I confess it was me, and I'm sorry if the Pleece members of this forum have missed me, but I've been catching up on some reading.
But I did take your advice Marty, such as it was, and suggested some measures that would actually have an effect. They won't happen though, cost too much.

[bluninja]

Lou, any chance you could post the piece that started this thread?

[scumdog]

Yeah I confess it was me, and I'm sorry if the Pleece members of this forum have missed me, but I've been catching up on some reading.
But I did take your advice Marty, such as it was, and suggested some measures that would actually have an effect. They won't happen though, cost too much.

Hey Lou no need to confess (we didn't beat it out of you eh!) and the Pleece didn't miss you!!!!!!
















Yes we did miss you but I bet you thought my response above was real!!!!

You're 'jousting at windmills' trying to get the govt to change, mores the pity but give it your best shot.

[bluninja]

You're 'jousting at windmills' trying to get the govt to change, mores the pity but give it your best shot.

Apathy, and believing things can't/won't be changed will definately not see things changed. If that's how you think Helen has won. :msn-wink:

'Whether you believe you can, or believe you can't, you are right' Henry Ford

[Gasman]

Apathy, and believing things can't/won't be changed will definately not see things changed. If that's how you think Helen has won. :msn-wink:

'Whether you believe you can, or believe you can't, you are right' Henry Ford
A..P..A..T..H..Y Hang on, do I have to stop watching the telly long enough to look that up in the dictionary???

Yeah, and as for boy racers, what about the girl racer who nearly wiped me out tonight....fag in one hand, phone in the other, while turning a corner, badly!

[spudchucka]

Apathy, and believing things can't/won't be changed will definately not see things changed. If that's how you think Helen has won. :msn-wink:

'Whether you believe you can, or believe you can't, you are right' Henry Ford
True enough but I bet Lou's letter writing hand drops off from overuse before anything changes.

[bluninja]

True enough but I bet Lou's letter writing hand drops off from overuse before anything changes.

Just don't tell me what you think he does with his none writing hand! That would be the clutching hand wouldn't it? :eek:

What you say may be true, but if it raises debate and gets more people involved and provoke debate (I was tempted to use sensible...Nah) then it's the only way to get the goalposts moved.....even if it takes 20 years and it's not all the way.

[scumdog]

Apathy, and believing things can't/won't be changed will definately not see things changed. If that's how you think Helen has won. :msn-wink:

'Whether you believe you can, or believe you can't, you are right' Henry Ford

Theres money involved, it won't change if it loses money for the govt, when was the last time a speeding fine went down?
Seriously, I think the boy racer act was a knee-jerk reaction to a seriously over estimated non-problem ( a bit like some of our gun laws - don't get me started here!) and still doesn't address the SAFETY aspect, it's more a visual and noise thing - although I have no tolerance for soft-cocks that have to tip diesel onto the road so they can skid their tyre on underpowered cars - don't get me started here either!!! :angry2:

[bluninja]

Money involved huh? I took a chap to Heathrow airport last night who had beeen out of England for 5 years (and like me for some stupid family reason had returned) he commented on the number of brightly coloured GATSOs we passed and asked how does anyone drive in the UK with so many cameras........I guess they are having to put up more gatsos to cope with the fact that they are easier to see and so avoid.....and then there's the vans :argh: I just turn my databox on and get informed of all traffic issues in my city.....which is pretty neat....

[marty]

Yeah I confess it was me, and I'm sorry if the Pleece members of this forum have missed me, but I've been catching up on some reading.
But I did take your advice Marty, such as it was, and suggested some measures that would actually have an effect. They won't happen though, cost too much.
it didn't go unnoticed lou...

[What?]

I thought the letter in question was a rather well written point of view. Much like one in the latest BRM as a matter of fact.
The point is, whilst we may not agree with other's points of view, it is their expression which maintains our right to have a choice.

[scumdog]

I thought the letter in question was a rather well written point of view. Much like one in the latest BRM as a matter of fact.
The point is, whilst we may not agree with other's points of view, it is their expression which maintains our right to have a choice.

Don't be so defensive on Lou's behalf , I was NOT putting the pricker into Lou, the reverse, I thought he might have come forwards and elaborated on this topic. :)

[What?]

Don't be so defensive on Lou's behalf , I was NOT putting the pricker into Lou, the reverse, I thought he might have come forwards and elaborated on this topic. :)
I wasn't - he's a big boy and can fend for himself. But I do notice there are those amongst us who feel a need to attack Lou for everything he says, even when he agrees with them. Kinda weird, really...
Might go and read the rest of the new BRM now - only read your letter so far!

[Lou Girardin]

Oh, you want elaboration.
Ok. My letter was in response to an article which said that, after a year of the 'boy racer' law there had been no drop in fatal or injury accidents among the target group.
Clayton Cosgrove, the instigator of the law, and some police person hummed and hahhed and said "well at least it's reduced the numbers of boy racers around". A strongly disputable point. I pointed out that if there were fewer of them, then the fatality and injury rate has, in fact, increased.
Then I suggested some measures that may actually reduce fatality rates among younger drivers; much tougher driving tests, increase the driving age, and having a power limit applied to cars that young people may drive. Similar to our learner and restricted licences.
Quite simple really, but it would cost money. So it won't happen tomorrow. We'll need another ten years of the failure of current policies before someone decides the LTSA just aren't sharp enough.

[scumdog]

I hear what you're saying Lou, the boy-racer act is now a non-event except when the gendarmes need some 'teeth', there are certain aspects of it I don't agree with myself e.g. if somebody is done under the boy-racer act and his car is not impounded it is 'green-stickered' - even if it is o.k. for a WOF, seems daft to me since green stickers are only (normally) used on cars that are not up to WOF standard because of minor and non-mechanical defects.

Unfortunately the BRA (?) is a fact of life and has not upset too many of the genuine b.r. type enthusiast and I have only used it as a means of getting young idiots to tone it down when they're playing up (nothing like the thought of their pride'n;joy being impounded with the accompanying expenses to make testosterone charges petrol heads cool off and fall into line)

[Lou Girardin]

There was an interesting letter in the Herald yesterday. The writer said that they caught some hoods in the act of robbing his car, chased them, got their rego and where they went. Cops didn't want to know, don't do car theft.
Woman at his work was burgled, cops told her to not touch anything till they showed up, in 3 days!
Writer's boss called the cops about 'boy-racers' in his street, cops were there in 5 minutes.
Now spud will chime in with a million reasons why this is so, but the public don't care about reasons. They just see the results.

[scumdog]

Now spud will chime in with a million reasons why this is so, but the public don't care about reasons. They just see the results.

"As they sow so shall they reap", the public are getting the service they want from the government they voted in - and OF COURSE they are going to show the government that on election day aren't they? :shifty:




Yeah right!

[Jackrat]

"As they sow so shall they reap", the public are getting the service they want from the government they voted in - and OF COURSE they are going to show the government that on election day aren't they? :shifty:




Yeah right!

That was a bit below the belt mate,
There is a choise????
Any other gov't that is available to us will do the same things,always have.
Every election year we have the current Gov't telling us what they've done and blaming anything they couldn't do on a previous Gov't.
We have the opposition saying they will crack down on this that and anything else they hope we're stupid enough to belive.
I've been able to vote since,I think 1975, and it's the same old, same old, every time.Bring back Gideon Tait and I MIGHT belive somebody is for real.But
it ain't gonn'a happen,is it??
As for the BRA,well I vist a shed that's full of old mazdas,hondas,fords,every week to pick up cars that will never be claimed back by the kids they were taken from because the same kids, if they are on the dole,will just get a loan and go buy a Skyline.Hell the BRA is doing them a favour and we're all paying for it.Damn who do we vote for if this crap is ever going to stop.
Then there's the gun laws,another money wasting,polly promoting,bleeding heart :shutup: :shutup: :shutup:

[scumdog]

Ahhh yesss, my favourite hate, the renewal of my "lifetime licence" (for firearms)!!
My reminder has just arrived telling me I need to cough up $123.75 to renew my licence and if I leave it too late I have pay $236.25!!! w.t.f., who comes up with fees like that, why not $125 or $235 flat?
And will my new licence make me any safer? I don't think so Tim!!!

Why do all my toys cost so much to run/own/use? - maybe I voted for the wrong crew? :doh: :mad: :mad:

[jrandom]

Don't bleat too loudly, guys. The ACT party is the only one that doesn't want to make our gun laws *more* restrictive than they are now.

Try owning a gun in Oz, or (no, really!) some parts of the USA.

Or move to the UK. Best you'll get there is an Airsoft.

You can own what you like, here, apart from fully-automatic weapons. Good enough for me. I actually think the firearms licensing laws make sense, and I know of one case where their strict application and the removal of a license has demonstrably reduced risk to the public.

If we're going to bleat about the cost of bureaucracy, let's start with vehicles. Not the $135 every ten years it costs to maintain a gun license.

[What?]

Ahhh yesss, my favourite hate, the renewal of my "lifetime licence" (for firearms)!!
Why do all my toys cost so much to run/own/use? - maybe I voted for the wrong crew? :doh: :mad: :mad:
OK, so let's totally hijack this thread... :crazy:
I wote to my local council lately to ask why it costs so much to register my dog, bearing in mind that dog rego was introduced purely to fund hydatits control. Now that hydatits is but a memory in NZ, should not dog rego be likewise?
They replied that the license fee was to pay the costs of dog control incurred by unlicensed owners! :angry2: :angry2:
Now go and ask the police stat's people what % of crimes committed using a firearm were committed by license holders (don't bother - they won't tell you, probably coz it's too embarrassing), or why a card that costs less than $10 to produce costs $123.
JRandom - you are part right, I think, but we should be attacking the pollies (by e-mail or letter, not just here) about ALL of these costs. If you think you will pay the equivalent of $123 in ten years to renew your firearms license, think again. My bet would be that the fee will treble in 10 years. My drivers license will also be scary...

[spudchucka]

There was an interesting letter in the Herald yesterday. The writer said that they caught some hoods in the act of robbing his car, chased them, got their rego and where they went. Cops didn't want to know, don't do car theft.
Woman at his work was burgled, cops told her to not touch anything till they showed up, in 3 days!
Writer's boss called the cops about 'boy-racers' in his street, cops were there in 5 minutes.
Now spud will chime in with a million reasons why this is so, but the public don't care about reasons. They just see the results.
Not a million reasons, only one. The traffic side of police is well resourced and the general duties branch is constantly strung out and poorly resourced.

If you can write a letter to fix that I'll stop giving you shit back, deal?

[scumdog]

Not a million reasons, only one. The traffic side of police is well resourced and the general duties branch is constantly strung out and poorly resourced.

If you can write a letter to fix that I'll stop giving you shit back, deal?

"Strung out"? I was the only member of the 'thin blue line' in an area almost as big as central Auckland on Saturday night, still, never mind I still issued 15 i.o.n.s :blah: No real Police work needed Lou! :whocares:

[What?]

Not a million reasons, only one. The traffic side of police is well resourced and the general duties branch is constantly strung out and poorly resourced.

If you can write a letter to fix that I'll stop giving you shit back, deal?
Like the Police Assn. man said on the Holmes show, the resources are being poured in to traffic in order to retain the funding. This is at the expense of general duties policing, like theft, burglaries etc (unless the victim is a mason??).

If Lou can write a letter to fix that, I will nominate him for President of the Republic of UnZud.

[spudchucka]

Like the Police Assn. man said on the Holmes show, the resources are being poured in to traffic in order to retain the funding. This is at the expense of general duties policing, like theft, burglaries etc (unless the victim is a mason??).

If Lou can write a letter to fix that, I will nominate him for President of the Republic of UnZud.
Thats not entirely accurate because the money for each area comes from different sources. Traffic branch gets money from ACC, LTSA etc etc etc to provide X amount of road policing. They are accountable for the hours delivered, as in they are paid to deliver X amount but if they only deliver Z amount then funding is effected. General duties gets money direct from the Govt, the amount is fixed in the budget and if funds dry up then stiff shit. This has happened several times when there have been a run of high profile homicide enquiries that have sucked up all the available funds. The general duties cops have been in a position where they cant even get a replacement shirt because funds have dried up.

Police managers, LTSA, ACC, Govt etc etc all love road policing because it is so measurable. Funds available / hours delivered / tickets issued / cars impounded / drink drivers caught etc etc are all easily measurable and provide a great system for measuring police performance. To do the same with general duties policing would be next to impossible because it has so many different sides to it. Nothing is clear cut like it is with road policing, otherwise we might see the Insurance Council or some other entity getting behind the police with funding like LTSA & ACC have with road policing.

[marty]

and don't forget that the police have to tender for the $ supplied by the LTSA/ACC/TLA each year - that's how some local body govts can run their own enforcement, as they pay their own people to do the parking tickets etc, taking some of the $ out of the TLA budget - the police are just the best set-up (legislatively and policy-wise) at the moment for enforcment.

[What?]

The general duties cops have been in a position where they cant even get a replacement shirt because funds have dried up.
I don't doubt it. Pretty sad really.

What the PA dude was getting at was that general duties cops were out bolstering traffic enforcement, at the expense of property crime work, because maintaining the traffic funding requires alot more ticketing than the funding/hours agreement reasonably allows for. I have no idea if this is actually true, but it certainly ties in well with Joe Public's perception of the modern police force.

What makes me really sad, is this: I know a lot of cops. Good guys, dedicated to their chosen line of work, who are becoming very disillusioned with the job now because of the policies dictated from (way) above.

[spudchucka]

What the PA dude was getting at was that general duties cops were out bolstering traffic enforcement, at the expense of property crime work, because maintaining the traffic funding requires alot more ticketing than the funding/hours agreement reasonably allows for. I have no idea if this is actually true, but it certainly ties in well with Joe Public's perception of the modern police force.
Its pretty much true. General duties branch cops get allocated traffic hours and they are expected to deliver them and the delivery is usually part of performance appraisals. In my experience as a GDB cop the traffic hours usually get delivered between other jobs, picking up speeders between burglary complaints etc. They also attend traffic crashes, which suck up a lot of time and because they involve risk to life they take priority over other jobs. If you end up getting involved in a serious matter or a messy sudden death then that is often your entire shift accounted for so the traffic hours just don't get done. However on Friday & Saturday nights there is always an abundance of idiots out hooning around and driving home drunk, so sometimes the traffic gets done sometimes it doesn't. Personally I don't worry about it too much, I get done what I can and deal with traffic matters as the present themselves, occasionally I find the time to actively target traffic but this would be the exception, not the rule.


What makes me really sad, is this: I know a lot of cops. Good guys, dedicated to their chosen line of work, who are becoming very disillusioned with the job now because of the policies dictated from (way) above.
Yep, its happening alot these days. However to me it comes down to the cops attitude and whether they want to let it get to them or just get on with the job. The police is an organisation that rellies largely on the good will of its staff and although cops get disillusioned and pissed off with the top brass they continue doing the job because it is what they want to do. Very few join for the money because they are bright people and have done the maths before they join, most join because they want to do the job and this keeps them going through the times when they are getting pissed off. The bosses know this and they exploit it to their advantage.

[scumdog]

And the propaganda we get is "it costs more in dollars for a two car injury crash than a dwelling burglary so it is better putting the money and effort into preventing crashes than preventing burglaries" - or something very similar. :(

Still better than being on a benefit and who would the public hate if cops did not exist? - see, we have a reason for being here!!!!

[Marmoot]

Thats not entirely accurate because the money for each area comes from different sources. Traffic branch gets money from ACC, LTSA etc etc etc to provide X amount of road policing. They are accountable for the hours delivered, as in they are paid to deliver X amount but if they only deliver Z amount then funding is effected. General duties gets money direct from the Govt, the amount is fixed in the budget and if funds dry up then stiff shit. This has happened several times when there have been a run of high profile homicide enquiries that have sucked up all the available funds. The general duties cops have been in a position where they cant even get a replacement shirt because funds have dried up.


Hang on.....so, Spud, are you saying that although it is only one Body (NZ Police) they are actually still operating totally separate from each other?
So, what the f*ck do we get the MoT and Police merged for then?
Why not keep them separate as they were?
I think it would be easier for us to hold the government accountable for any failings if the MoT and Police were still separate from each other, right? Or is this the exact reasoning for merging them in the first place?
:mellow:

[spudchucka]

Hang on.....so, Spud, are you saying that although it is only one Body (NZ Police) they are actually still operating totally separate from each other?
So, what the f*ck do we get the MoT and Police merged for then?
Why not keep them separate as they were?
I think it would be easier for us to hold the government accountable for any failings if the MoT and Police were still separate from each other, right? Or is this the exact reasoning for merging them in the first place?
:mellow:
You will have to ask John Banks the exact reason for the merger. He promised the public 1000 more police officers and then once elected he promptly told the MOT that they were all to retrain and become police officers. Sure the public got more cops but many of them didn't want to be there or weren't the types that you would want there. Some have gone on to make very good police officers and many of them are now Superintendants and Inspectors, the very people who now make the decisions on policy and resource allocation. Ask yourself why things appear fucked up at times!

They aren't really separate entities within the same organisation, although it does feel like that at times, the funding and allocation of resources is the issue I was commenting on. There is cross over between traffic and general duties but it tends to be the GDB getting lumbered with additional traffic hours. Dedicated traffic units do help out when things turn to puss but they are very quick to hand over any criminal matters to GDB satff because their bosses will kick their butts if they aren't out on the road doing what they are supposed to be doing.

[Marmoot]

hmm.....I think that just changed my view on cops in general :niceone:

[riffer]

hmm.....I think that just changed my view on cops in general :niceone:
Yeah, amazing how differently you get it from the other side isn't it.

Thanks for setting the record straight, Spud

[spudchucka]

Yeah, amazing how differently you get it from the other side isn't it.

Thanks for setting the record straight, Spud
No worries, there is so much miss-information that flies around about anything to do with police these days. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but often the very strong anti opinions are based on incorrect assumptions.

Being a cop is a great job, I have some really good times and a hell of a lot of laughs. It can be stressful at times and there are always things about it that you don't like but that is true of any job. The best thing about it is that no two days are the same. I had a day recently when I've started at 0600 on a Sunday morning and ten minutes later I'm aiming a firearm at someone armed with a huge knife, you never know what will greet you each day. Then there are the feel good jobs such as finding lost kids - they keep you going on a high for ages.

[scumdog]

Yeah, amazing how differently you get it from the other side isn't it.

Thanks for setting the record straight, Spud

I can understand people being p... off when they have had a run in with a cop that is say, less than tactful and personality challenged, but as I have said to a few, if you get a bit of bad service from the Mount Grand Caltex do you bad mouth ALL service stations? and bad mouth ALL Caltex service stations? and bad mouth ALL the pump-jockeys at the Mount Grand Caltex? - most likely not, - so apply that to run-ins with others in your life eh?

[duckman]

I think the Police will always be an easy target for people's frustrations, and I'm sure we would all like it if they had the money and the resources to protect the things we have and love... unfortunately this will never be the case .... Keep up the good job Spud.... :yes:

[Motu]

You will have to ask John Banks the exact reason for the merger. He promised the public 1000 more police officers and then once elected he promptly told the MOT that they were all to retrain and become police officers. Sure the public got more cops but many of them didn't want to be there or weren't the types that you would want there. Some have gone on to make very good police officers and many of them are now Superintendants and Inspectors, the very people who now make the decisions on policy and resource allocation. Ask yourself why things appear fucked up at times!


Our local Traffic Cop became a Policeman,and a few years later disapeared without a trace - I hope he was put in a nice prison,his type get the worst treatment from everyone there...ex cop or not.

[Lou Girardin]

I'm amused at the way the members of some occupations demonise other branches of that occupation.
It used to be said that those of us in the Motorway Unit were ticket hungry posers that didn't do 'real' Traffic work. Recently it has been the ex-MOT cops at the root of all Police problems. Now it's the HP cops giving the others a bad name. Ignoring the fact that the HP cops couldn't possibly write even half the number of tickets being issued.
Something that Spud didn't mention was the effect that INCIS had on the force. The top brass thought that INCIS would reduce the need for lower to middle ranking supervisors. In addition, reducing their ranks freed up the budget to pay for INCIS.
The chickens have now come home to roost. INCIS died, and we now have numbers of poorly trained and ill-supervised recruits on the streets. This has led to record numbers of cops being charged with rape, theft, street brawling, various driving offences, etc. All the problems facing the Police today are of their own doing. And until the rank and file stand up publicly to denounce current policies, as they've done in the UK, the public will continue to believe that they support the predation on ordinary citizens in the interest of grabbing revenue.
They'll be regarded accordingly.

[spudchucka]

I'm amused at the way the members of some occupations demonise other branches of that occupation.
Just as some ex members of a proffesion turn feral and demonise the current members of the same proffesion. Whats the difference? Whats your point?


Recently it has been the ex-MOT cops at the root of all Police problems.
You are a bit prone to exageration there chap. All I've said is that some ex MOT's are now in positions involving policy and budget decision making. No one has said they are to blame for all the police problems.


Now it's the HP cops giving the others a bad name. Ignoring the fact that the HP cops couldn't possibly write even half the number of tickets being issued.
How can you possibly back that up?


Something that Spud didn't mention was the effect that INCIS had on the force. The top brass thought that INCIS would reduce the need for lower to middle ranking supervisors. In addition, reducing their ranks freed up the budget to pay for INCIS.
INCIS was intended to be a lot more than just that. It was a huge stuff up and cost some people their jobs, it probably should have cost a lot more people their jobs too. Whats left of it has worked out be be a pretty good application and is slowly replacing the old Wanganui system.


The chickens have now come home to roost. INCIS died, and we now have numbers of poorly trained and ill-supervised recruits on the streets.
Its no secret that a lot of experience has gone from the police and if INCIS is to blame its mainly because of the vacum in funding that the whole screw up left in its wake. Long serving cops just got fed up and left due to the frustrations following the whole afair. Shit happens, life goes on.


This has led to record numbers of cops being charged with rape, theft, street brawling, various driving offences, etc.
What are the numbers Lou? This is just another of your general sweeping statements with absolutely no substance or back up figures. You are simply using current events in a vain attempt to back up what is a statement with absolutely no substance.


All the problems facing the Police today are of their own doing. And until the rank and file stand up publicly to denounce current policies, as they've done in the UK, the public will continue to believe that they support the predation on ordinary citizens in the interest of grabbing revenue.
You are right, the police should take ownership of their own problems. However the problems are no where near as monumental as you would make out. Most people don't have the blind obsession that you apparently have and to all the normal people out there whatever problems they are aware of are of little concern to them.


They'll be regarded accordingly.
Thats fine because as stated above the majority of normal people do actually support the police,contrary to what you would have people believe.

[badlieutenant]

hmmm I wonder if the user pays economic model will ever be dumped. How can you apply a economic efficiency rating on alot of what the police do? I can understand the idea that you should have to account for what you do in a day like I do (builder) but im producing something. The police are meant to be a social and community service. You know, maintain law and order.
I remember listening in on a conversation my brother was having with a lecturer at victoria university. He was talking about some consultation work he was doing with the government, treasury i think, anyhow he was amazed that he had to explain to them that a governments taxation system couldnt be modeled after a buisness. The consumer (voter) has no choice but to purchase your services (infact you can make him/her pay) and there's no competition, to name a few. So yes, possibly we are run by idiots.
Im curious how much time a officer spends on paper work justifing the hours he spent. How do you account for the intangible ?

[scumdog]

hmmm I wonder if the user pays economic model will ever be dumped. How can you apply a economic efficiency rating on alot of what the police do?
Im curious how much time a officer spends on paper work justifing the hours he spent. How do you account for the intangible ?

You have raised a good point, I get frustrated by the amount of 'needless' paperwork my job entails, I am sure it could be streamlined should somebody decide and I'm sure I speak for a lot of others here.
Each year we get more forms/reports to fill in - for victims, courts, for DNA, for prisoners etc., hardly ever have I been told "don't worry about filling in any more xxxxx forms, and oh, by the way we are not replacing them with any other form".
A while ago when filling in time sheets you could record that time spent filling them in, the heirachy spun out when they found out exactly how much time was used up filling in time sheets and they promptly forbid putting any time down to filling in time sheets, - but they still get done!!!!

[badlieutenant]

You have raised a good point, I get frustrated by the amount of 'needless' paperwork my job entails, I am sure it could be streamlined should somebody decide and I'm sure I speak for a lot of others here.
Each year we get more forms/reports to fill in - for victims, courts, for DNA, for prisoners etc., hardly ever have I been told "don't worry about filling in any more xxxxx forms, and oh, by the way we are not replacing them with any other form".
A while ago when filling in time sheets you could record that time spent filling them in, the heirachy spun out when they found out exactly how much time was used up filling in time sheets and they promptly forbid putting any time down to filling in time sheets, - but they still get done!!!!

in your own time ? grrrrrrrrr
When i worked in a petrol sation years ago for mobil we used to have to be able to account to the cent (i think they allowed -/+ 5c) of our till floats. Which is fair enough if we were getting paid for it. It could take ages sometimes to find that one chit or whatever it was to track down the inaccuracies and bugger me if you couldn't make it add up. But the thing that bugged me was that if you do the maths say on 1000 staff with 3 shifts a day with say half an hour on till floats. thats 1500 hours day, 10500 hours a week, 73500 hours a year. And I just made that number (1000) up, It would be more than that. Ok we were paid peanuts so that would amount to say a small bag of salted cashews.
My point been though, they use a system that srews down every dollar and hour spent by them but its ok if the staff make allowances.
Incidently mobil spent 1 MIL$ trying to fiqure out why they had something like 98% staff turn over every quarter, go fiqure :/
Three cheers for the people of fair old NZ who still wish to serve thier community. And maybe thump the odd idiot :D






:wavey:

[What?]

I can understand people being p... off when they have had a run in with a cop that is say, less than tactful and personality challenged, but as I have said to a few, if you get a bit of bad service from the Mount Grand Caltex do you bad mouth ALL service stations? and bad mouth ALL Caltex service stations? and bad mouth ALL the pump-jockeys at the Mount Grand Caltex? - most likely not, - so apply that to run-ins with others in your life eh?
An excellent analogy Scumdog.
Should also stop sometimes and think what else might have gone down. The majority of cops are actually people as well, and as such can have a temporary bad attitude caused by a recent event. It happens to all of us in any job. A number of times I have heard people bagging particular cops, yet only once have I ever agreed. Usually, it was a case of the cop had just been through a bad scene, or the dude just pulled for speeding got a bit arrogant. I have had a few speeding tickets over the years, but politeness (as opposed to grovelling) has got me a few warnings, too.

[spudchucka]

Heaps of people who complain about cops having bad attitudes bring it on themselves. They expect the cop to be an arogant ass and their attitude reflects this. When they get the expected response from the cop it simply completes the cycle. A self fulfilling prophecy?

The same is true of cops who get heaps of complaints, if they treat everyone they deal with like low life scum sucking pond dwelling filth then it is little wonder that they generate complaints.

[Marmoot]

Heaps of people who complain about cops having bad attitudes bring it on themselves. They expect the cop to be an arogant ass and their attitude reflects this. When they get the expected response from the cop it simply completes the cycle. A self fulfilling prophecy?

The same is true of cops who get heaps of complaints, if they treat everyone they deal with like low life scum sucking pond dwelling filth then it is little wonder that they generate complaints.

excellent point.....the karmic wheel cycle

[scumdog]

excellent point.....the karmic wheel cycle

When you're dealing with victims and offenders all the time it is easy to pigeon-hole everybody you meet into one or the other, keeping a happy balance (and your own sanity) calls for some juggling at times, we all slip-up and Murphys law says there will be a quadzillion witnesses and complaints when we do. :crazy:

[mangell6]

Attitude is everything, I had fun with a candyman the other night. Taking my son and his mates home from Indoor netball, rear windows fogged up, '87 Corolla, went round a round-a-bout the correct way, turned left and caught sight of candy lights as I went around the corner, watched and saw that the car was following me, pulled over to let them passed and the car pulls in behind me. Huh??

The boys wondered why I had stopped until they saw the red and blue in the car. Watched as the HP man walked to the car and then I got out of the car myself. Sort of stopped him in his tracks as he was fully expecting a car with young hoons in it, not a balding distinguised gentlemen (I made this bit up).

He said that it was routine breath check, had I been drinking, name, address into the machine, asked him if he wanted to see my license as well, which he said yeah ok, all very pleasant.

It just seemed to me that he was slightly confused, most people are not 'helpful' towards them and assisting doing their duty. We both went on our way. The boys asked why did he stop, explained my view and told them that he was just doing his job.

Have experienced both types from NZ Police and the arrogant ones are real easy to pick and I find that being really pleasant and 'helpful' messes them up mentally. It can be a fun sport.

Mike

[spudchucka]

It just seemed to me that he was slightly confused, most people are not 'helpful' towards them and assisting doing their duty.
Actually most people are helpful and compliant with officer requests. It is only a few that are intentionally abrasive.


Have experienced both types from NZ Police and the arrogant ones are real easy to pick and I find that being really pleasant and 'helpful' messes them up mentally. It can be a fun sport.
That one works both ways too.