ABS not bad

[candor]

They reckon it doesn't reduce car crashes but is way better for bikes.

Kramlich and Sporner (Krauts) looked at 910 mc accidents. Of 610 involving cars 65 percent of riders braked before collision and one in five came off.
In 93 percent of cases abs would have avoided or reduced severity of crash.

Of 300 single bike crashes of which eighty percent were on corners half the riders binned. Forty percent of them would have avoided crash or reduced severity with abs.

ABS on all bikes would reduce crash fatalities by 8-10 percent not least as it protects against car misbehaviour

The Rosebud Working paper 4 of 2005 said this is a cost benefit ratio of between 1.1 and 11.7 (acceptable to excellent) depending on how much of a tax break might be offered to riders of cheaper bikes for fitting abs.

With ACC claims on all vehicle crashes up phenomenally might be worth a hint.

[MD]

I find it hard to believe the statement that ABS doesn't help in cars? How many nose to tails alone would have been avoided by ABS. I've tested panic stops in my car for fun in the wet, in the dry, on straights and into bends. It's in bends that ABS gives a car driver a big advantage to brake and corner at the same time. Much safer in my opinion.
On the F800S I have panic tested in heavy rain and it is amazingly effective. A learner with ABS in the wet would out stop 99% of very experienced riders. It's that good. For me the votes aren't in yet on whether or not I want ABS in the dry. Luckily the front hardly ever activates in the dry. About the only time I have triggered the front ABS was deliberately trying to see if I could stoppie.. :doh: , shattered balls! It releases the braking at the point when the rear is about to lift, then a split second later SLAM, yelp :shit: !- it's like hitting a brick wall!..using your testicles to soften the impact.
The rear ABS I could do without. Only because I like to lightly rear brake into bends to settle the bike especially in fast mode. That means the rear wheel can get light under hard front braking and add a small rise/bump as you reach a corner and the ABS can unexpectly release your rear brake..the added fright is that the pedal falls through the floor, so to speak, giving you a tiny wee oh shit moment of doubt. This is a minor drawback and it's easy to ride around it once you know when to expect it.
Certainly when I read some of the new riders on here describing slow speed offs around town or in the wet, I would say ABS could have prevented many spills for learners.
The technology will only get better so expect to see more bikes coming out with ABS.

[SARGE]

i hated my ABS on my FJ.. couldnt disconnect it fast enough.. saved myself 10 kg's in weight when i yanked the ABS pump and such too..

[oldrider]

i hated my ABS on my FJ.. couldnt disconnect it fast enough.. saved myself 10 kg's in weight when i yanked the ABS pump and such too..

You "yanked" it! Is that what Yanks do? Just can't help yourself eh! :blip::stoogie::rofl: John.

[SARGE]

You "yanked" it! Is that what Yanks do? Just can't help yourself eh! :blip::stoogie::rofl: John.



i tried to "Kiwi" it but the instruction manual was all mis-spelled and the grammar was horrible

[inlinefour]

They reckon it doesn't reduce car crashes but is way better for bikes.

Kramlich and Sporner (Krauts) looked at 910 mc accidents. Of 610 involving cars 65 percent of riders braked before collision and one in five came off.
In 93 percent of cases abs would have avoided or reduced severity of crash.

Of 300 single bike crashes of which eighty percent were on corners half the riders binned. Forty percent of them would have avoided crash or reduced severity with abs.

ABS on all bikes would reduce crash fatalities by 8-10 percent not least as it protects against car misbehaviour

The Rosebud Working paper 4 of 2005 said this is a cost benefit ratio of between 1.1 and 11.7 (acceptable to excellent) depending on how much of a tax break might be offered to riders of cheaper bikes for fitting abs.

With ACC claims on all vehicle crashes up phenomenally might be worth a hint.

At the end of the day, if your going to crash, there is little that can be done to stop it. However I have ABS in my station wagon and its ability to stop is awesome. I allways liked having independant brakes on a bike, must be a personal preference thing?:yes:

[jonbuoy]

I thought a decent driver could stop quicker without ABS? ABS lets you steer and brake at the same time - not so?

[Zukin]

I have the best of both worlds :yes:

ABS that I can turn off with a switch on my dash, great on the road after you get used to the pulsing action in the brakes, but on the gravel it is a must turn off thing!!:shutup:

My thoughts

[NZsarge]

i tried to "Kiwi" it but the instruction manual was all mis-spelled and the grammar was horrible

Ahh... But by "yanking" it you did "Kiwi" it :Punk::D

[terbang]

ABS doesn't improve the braking, it just manages it better by not allowing a lockup by intervening between the brake unit and a heavy footed/handed rider. A current and well practised rider (like on a track perhaps) will more than likely do a better job but then if tootling along on a sunday with your brain in semi neutral and the need for a sudden stop arises. Then maybe ABS would be a handy thing. I have often figured that ABS would be a good thing on the rear brake (for a road touring bike) as that is the one that we (well me anyway) tend to lock up the most when we need to hit the picks in a hurry. The front wheel, with weight transferring onto it during braking, is much more manageable and is less likely to skid in the dry (check the stoppie guys out). So why not both wheels for the wet?
however I have never ridden a bike with ABS though I have cars that have it and often wonder if it can give motorists (especialy those F@rks that tailgate) a false sense of security.
Its standard fit on transport aircraft though it is more complex. In an emergency stop you just stand on the brakes and let the antiskid sort it out. But it is still only coverting kinetic energy into heat at the best possible rate and once again, it is only better management giving the pilot the capacity to think about and deal with other stuff. It won't stop a runway overrun if you have stuffed yer landing in the first place!

[vifferman]

I find it hard to believe the statement that ABS doesn't help in cars?
The reason is that people who know they have ABS tend to act as if it's a miracle thing, so they follow other cars too closely. Also, when they panic brake, they don't stomp on the pedal hard enough, or let it off when they feel it pulse as it's about to lockup. Lastly, they don't realise that the biggest advantage of ABS is that because the tyres retain their traction, they can still manouevre while braking hard, so they fail to do that too.

Experts say that if you have ABS you need to practice emergency braking: brake VERY hard, and practice swerving.

[scumdog]

The reason is that people who know they have ABS tend to act as if it's a miracle thing, so they follow other cars too closely. Also, when they panic brake, they don't stomp on the pedal hard enough, or let it off when they feel it pulse as it's about to lockup. Lastly, they don't realise that the biggest advantage of ABS is that because the tyres retain their traction, they can still manouevre while braking hard, so they fail to do that too.

Experts say that if you have ABS you need to practice emergency braking: brake VERY hard, and practice swerving.

Bugger all people who drive a car with ABS have ever experienced it working - except maybe when braking and turning into a gravel driveway etc.

Saying "It gives them too much confidence and they'll follow too close" is a myth - most of them dawdle along without a thought that they have ABS - let alone that it may help them stop in a shorter distance.

The same argument came out re seatbelts when they were first introduced: "It will make people take more risks because they will think they won't get hurt"

The idiots who take risks in either situation will do so regardless - even if they are driving an 'as facory' 1930's Austin.

Next time you're talking to a person who is not car-orientated just ask them what ABS is and how it works.

[discotex]

Saying "It gives them too much confidence and they'll follow too close" is a myth - most of them dawdle along without a thought that they have ABS - let alone that it may help them stop in a shorter distance.


It's all about misjudging risk vs skill vs reflexes. Same goes for speeding, driving drunk, wearing shorts on a bike, bushwalking in a bikini in winter, etc, etc. People will always do stupid stuff. The only one that I do think makes a little difference is SUV's. Sitting up higher makes you feel further away as your line of sight is clear so you tend to close up to the car behind. Whenever I've driven a 4x4 it took some effort to remember that the 2sec rule starts at the car in front of me not the car in front of me.


About the only time I have triggered the front ABS was deliberately trying to see if I could stoppie.. :doh: , shattered balls! It releases the braking at the point when the rear is about to lift, then a split second later SLAM, yelp :shit: !- it's like hitting a brick wall!..using your testicles to soften the impact.

Ahhhh I see. ABS stands for Anti Baby System..

[MrMelon]

There was a study done in Germany I think where half the cabs were fitted with ABS, and the other half without. It turned out there wasn't any statistical difference in the proportion of accidents involving ABS cabs and non-ABS cabs. The ones with ABS ended up driving faster and taking more risks because they had ABS! The effect is known as Risk Homeostasis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_homeostasis) and can be seen in other populations.

There's a bit more about the Munich taxi cab experiment here: http://psyc.queensu.ca/target/chapter07.html

Oops knew i'd seen it somewhere before...
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=52110&highlight=risk+homeostasis

[SARGE]

i have ridden a few bikes in my day .. most of them WITHOUT ABS.. i find that i brake faster and better without it .. i 'trail brake' using the rear when i am in sports mode anyway and ABS just screws with it

[terbang]

Talking about brakes and wheel lockups, I thought I might recall an incident I had a long time ago on an old GSX1100. I was rattling along a south Island road with a bunch of my mates, enjoying the scenery and dreaming about the stuff that only 21 year old males can do. Returning from wondrous oblivion I suddenly discovered the road had narrowed to a one lane bridge and the array of brake lights ahead revealed the boys ahead to have been slowing for some time. Not too bad (I think, I hope) as I wasn't going too fast (heart flutter) but perhaps a little too close so I needed a fairly aggressive brake application. During the braking the rear wheel locked up and the back end swung out to the right. "Fark this" as I went into survival reaction (SR) and incorrectly put my right foot back where it came from, off the brake pedal! I likened the next sensation to being like one of those bits of chewed up pieces of paper that has just been launched across a classroom off the end of some troublesome schoolboys 12" ruler. Flick and I was flying down the road while my bike was dismantling itself in a series of cartwheels behind me and I narrowly missed having 260 KG of bike landing back on top of me. "Shit I just got highsided on a straight piece of road"! I walked away from that one with a big question mark above my head.

Time, experience and a bit of study has given me some answers.
A skidding tyre has less friction or traction than a rolling tyre, hence the invention of anti-skid technology such as ABS. With this knowledge in mind I can now easily spot my mistake in the above.
Obviously my sleeping on the job played a big part as I had left the braking a bit too late and had to apply it aggressively. As the bike scrubbed off speed, it rocked forward on it's spindly 80's suspension and the weight on the rear wheel reduced causing it to skid. It now had less traction and decided to overtake the front wheel. Now the direction it chose to go, left or right, seemed to be purely random and could easily have been a result of the road surface, my poor alignment skills or the position of the planets. Perhaps the planets. However what is important is that I was now going sideways with a rear wheel lockup and the situation was getting exponentially worse by the second. My SR of releasing the back brake pedal instantly turned the rear wheel back into a rolling state giving it all its grip back! It now became the perfect fulcrum to catapult a bike and rider, that were seconds before sliding sideways, resulting in a very expensive and potentially dangerous high-side.
So I did it wrong and that's just part of being human you could say. So what else could I have done to have prevented it?
I could have had my brain in gear in the first place! But hey I was 21, had a nice girlfriend, a great job and was riding a superbike (as they called them then) so what could go wrong.
Once the rear wheel went out and past a certain point, I reckon I was farked, I was committed to going down so my choices were: Remove the rear brake application and high-side or keep it there and low-side. Hindsight tells me that the low-side is a far more comfortable option, so keeping the rear brake on and riding the slide to the bitter end with the small possibility of regaining control, makes more sense above the strong human startle urge of 'this looks bad so lets put it back where it came from'.
I was originally taught the old 75/25 Front/Rear braking technique and 25 years ago it was fairly applicable to the technology available. Looking at modern sports bikes I notice massive front end braking capacity compared to meagre rear wheel brake design and build. A message from the makers that has me thinking that on such bikes the 75/25 ratio should be revised and the rear brake used only for carparks and perhaps stability in controlled corner entries.
The bottom line is, that rear brake can get you into an awful lot of trouble even on a straight road and practise braking is an essential part of any riders toolbox.

[Hitcher]

The two bikes I've ridden with ABS (both BMWs) have left me uninspired. There was none of the "feel" I'm used to. I found the ABS braking experience vague and uninspiring. When I get my Concours test ride I'll know whether Kawasaki-san can do it better than the Bavarians.