advice please: bike troubles

[Duke of Rogan]

before I take my bike to a shop and have the wrong thing fixed, I'm hoping the brains-trust that is KB can give me some quick advice on a couple of problems with my bike (I've only had it 3 months and yet to take it to a workshop).

1st problem: bad battery or bad charging?
I've had to recharge my battery a few times now, and last time I gave it a full overnight charge, which has lasted over 2 weeks I think, but I noticed this morning it was slow to start.
How can I test if the battery needs replacing, or if my bike isn't charging enough? I have a multi-meter and have measured the voltage across the batt with engine running (idleling), I think it was only about 12.9V and the batt itself when off was about 12.5V
I suspect the battery needs replacing...

2nd problem:hestitation and rough response at certain revs, espically when cold and worse with 91 octane gas.
Other symptons:
- not very good fuel economy (approx. 100kms / 6L or 7L)
- sometimes backfires when starts (esp. with 91 octane!)
- hestiation at same point in rev-range (about 4800-5000 RPM)
- terrible in 1st gear / low revs when in traffic (pops a bit)

Things replaced/done already:
- new spark plugs (old ones were a bit sooty, news one have got carbon on them too, suspect mixture too rich?)
- new K&N air-filter (had OEM paper one)
- balanced carbs, adjust idle and mixture a little. (had a mate do this, owns the proper gauges, did help a little)
- replaced fuel filter

Possible solution:
I suspect the jets need replacing. Mixture reset, carbs balanced again.

the bike has had the OEM jets replaced with a stage 1 dyno-jet kit, but that was when it was new-ish (1st owner, 300kms). I am the 3rd owner and its about to do 30,000kms.

all advice except for trading it for a different make is welcome :cool:

[MikeL]

Duke:
2 questions about your battery/charging system:
1. how old is the battery? The older it is, the more likely it's the problem.
2. have you got your bike's workshop manual? If so, what does it specify as the charging voltage? I think 12.9 is a bit low. For my Honda, the regulated voltage at 5000 rpm should be 14 - 16 V. Could be a fault in the regulator/rectifier or the alternator.

[Duke of Rogan]

I'm not sure about the battery's age and I'll have to research the charging voltage (dont have workshop manual).

[ScottieX]

Try one thing at a time. You may find that the battery ( if it is suspect ) may be causing other symptoms to be apparent.

My unknowledgeable two cents worth.:)

[bikerboy]

I know nothing technical about bikes but read about and had a similar battery problem on my previous bike.

Now, the bit that charges the battery if often defective on ducatis. This prevents battery being fully recharged. Engines require a lot of batt power to start, and eventually need new battery. I replaced mine three times over four years. This defect just wears them out.

Check out www.clubdesmo.com lots of posts about ducati battery problems.
:argh:

[Duke of Rogan]

thanks all for your help, I think i'll replace the battery then see how the motor runs.
I found a thread on the clubdesmo site titled "Rough engine with a bad battery", in which someone reported that replacing the battery fixed the rough engine, however I think this is on an injected bike with an ECU, and mine is carb'ed.
I tested the charging voltage again last night, and without the headlight on it got up to about 13.8V and with light on 14.0V
With the key on and only fuel pump running, the battery voltage quickly dropped below 12V, so again I suspect its not very good.
:niceone:

[wkid_one]

What plugs you running?

I found that with the twin - any poor spark was much more noticeable.  Since fitting high performance plugs the bike runs a lot smoother.  Cost a bit more - but well worth it in the performance stakes.

 

[Duke of Rogan]

What plugs you running?


not high-performance ones, unless they were on special for $5 each :D
I got them from Haldanes (ducati shop), I think they are NGK...

it could weel be spark related, according to clubdesmo post the "bad battery" can lead to poor spark. Think I'll try and get another battery this week.

[MikeL]

With 14V coming out it looks as if your alternator and reg/rec are O.K. A new battery is in order!

[What?]

Yeah, but before you rush out and buy a new battery, just check that the earth strap is solid where it meets the frame, and also the earth strap between engine and frame (if there is one). Could be a poor earth is causing a big voltage drop which is making the CDI unhappy. I would expect the fuel pump to quickly drop battery voltage below 12, but it should stay well above 10 volts for quite some time.

[scumdog]

Duke the guys are right, get hold of a new battery and give it a go, it's amazing how many "problems" a good battery can "fix" plus if you try that first then you won't have nagging doubt when you have other bits apart that maybe it was the battery.

[scumdog]

Duke, just an after-thought, your scoot seems REAL hard on batteries, my last one lasted over seven years and then I sold the bike, for all I know it could still be working.
If I am not using the bike for a bit ( i.e. away for a while) I put the battery on a slow charger, you just got to keep an eye on the water, then when you go to use it again it'll fire up easy.

[wkid_one]

I don't think that he is worried about the battery now

[Duke of Rogan]

Originally posted by wkid_one
I don't think that he is worried about the battery now

too right. maybe I can tack a new one into my insurance claim...

[bikerboy]

Maybe you can get the whole thing sorted as a result of the accident.

"Gee, it ran fine before the accident but now seems to run rough and the battery is shot"
:rockon:

[Marmoot]

Can also be water in the fuel system.
Try the Wynns Petrol Treatment (use only 1/4 to 1/3 bottle for a full tank). Cleans the fuel system and unclog the carburetor/injector jets.
Especially if you store your bike outside or often leave the tank half-full/empty

[Duke of Rogan]

yeah I was going to try a treatment, sometimes it runs a bit like my old VT250 did when that had water in the fuel. I solved that by tipping in about half a litre of meths into the tank.
I'm pretty sure it needs a new battery though, and from what I've heard this will be seriously affecting spark.

[SPman]

Definitely try a new battery, and don't get an el cheapo! I tried this,bought a $70 cheapy and , after 5 months, when the battery kept boiling and spewing acid everywhere and I'd spent $360 on a new voltage regulator to no good effect, put in a new ($160) battery, and everything was sweet! - (anyone want a voltage Regulator for a YZF750/1000?)

[Duke of Rogan]

well I finally got a new battery installed on Saturday and it has definatlety helped!
although the flat-spot that I had around 4800RPM disappeared before I did this. I think tipping the bike on its side in my crash helped, which sounds crazy. Maybe I had some water or shit in the carbs float chambers??

another little quirk, that may indicate a lean mixture:
I had been using the bike for a while with both rubber "horns" removed from the air-box to improve air induction (and increase air box noise :) ), but put one back in 'cos I found it too loud. So I put one back in, and this improved the engines smoothness too.

I'll be interested to see if the new battery improves my fuel economy (better spark, more effecient?)

PS. wheres the spell-checker funktion ? :p

[aff-man]

Just be carefull driving an old honda i know all about charging system f**k-ups. I replaced the battery everything went fine untill it decided one morning  that i needed excerise and so went dead(bloody push starting). If there is a reg-rec problem then it messes with basically just about everything on the bike. One way i got told to check is at night (or dark place) if you rev the engine and there is a visible change in the brightness of your headlight then it should be ok otherwise you had better get out the wallet. Hope it was only the battery :niceone: :niceone:

[Duke of Rogan]

sorry, but I used to own a Honda VT250 which had water in its fuel, but my current bike is a Ducati 600SS with a new battery :cool:

[duckman]

Hey Duke,
I can explain your lag at 4,500 5,000 RPM. I am experiencing the same thing which started after I cut open the airbox and installed a high-flow filter. This will lean out the air-fuel mixture and produce a crazy lag when you throw it wide open.
I'm fixing this problem by installing a power commander and getting the bike dyno'd at power sports on the 1st of September. I will let you know if this works. In the meantime I would suggest that if you want to keep your airbox open, you will need to address the air-fuel mixture issue with a carb tune.

[wkid_one]

Most likely the slide stirred the shit at the bottom of the fuel tank!!

[Duke of Rogan]

Originally posted by duckman
Hey Duke,
I can explain your lag at 4,500 5,000 RPM. I am experiencing the same thing which started after I cut open the airbox and installed a high-flow filter. This will lean out the air-fuel mixture and produce a crazy lag when you throw it wide open.

yeah, I began suspecting this last week, so for a test I am riding with both horns things removed and the flat-spots are back, but not quite as bad as before.

I was planning on getting a dyno tune sometime soon, so will be interested in your results.
according to the receipts I have with the bike, it was dynoed very early in its life (3000km) when a stage 1 dyno-jet kit was installed.

do you reckon it would be worth me time and money upgrading to a stage 2 kit and having it tuned or stick with stage 1?
(I have installed a K&N air-filter element, but dont really want to cut up my air-box, but ride without the rubber horn things)

[Duke of Rogan]

Originally posted by wkid_one
Most likely the slide stirred the shit at the bottom of the fuel tank!!

hope not, but I think the tanks pretty clean, I got a good look at the inside of it when replacing the in-tank fuel filter, what a bastard!

[duckman]

Hey Duke,

I don't know about you, but I love having the airbox open. The sound is fantastic. I personally feel that considering the number of times I've heard "but I didn't see you" from a cage driver, fully warrants having a loud bike.
If you've got the dollars go the who hog and step up to stage two.
I'll let you know what results I get from the PC and Dyno.

:niceone:

[Duke of Rogan]

If you've got the dollars go the who hog and step up to stage two.

what's involved eggactly? is it just a matter of replacing the jets, installing high-flow air filter, opening up airbox and dyno tune?
or will I need a new muffler too?
(have factory can that has been de-cored)

yeah, love the noise too, reckon it accounts for almost 50% of the bikes noise sometimes :rolleyes:

[duckman]

Haha - Now you've cornered me. As I understand it the full 3 stage upgrade is:

1. New cans - (I can recommend the arrow carbon fibre)

2. Open airbox and high flow filter (k&N's best)

3. Upgrade ECU - either buy the whole ECU from Ducati or install a powercommander unit and then Dyno to check that the air-fuel mixture is set right.

I think thats about it. but I should point out that I work in I.T. and therefore am full of it most of the time!!
:p

[Duke of Rogan]

righto, on my 600 I only have 1 can, so that halves that cost

and my bike is carb'ed so no ECU I believe, but does have coils obvisouly that I could upgrade.

what I was thinking of doing (after fairing repairs) was:
1. if it will pass a WOF, replace de-cored std muffler (not sure what brand)
2. upgrading carb jets to dyno-jet "Stage 2" kit
3. dyno-tune with standard air-box, but with rubber "horn" restrictors off and K&N

me thinks if I do much more then I'm throwing away the money I should be saving for my next bike (that will give the extra performance I will be after in a few months)

I also have IT job (probably same female boss and not called Helen) but also have mortgage and wife who likes new clothes and my own drug habit to maintain.:beer:

[duckman]

Ditto - Work and lifestyle choices!! :niceone:

[Redstar]

plugs sooty? $5 dollar plugs?

Well I guess thats not going to be helped by a new Battery?

Standard plugs for my Bike $20 sooty obviously too rich?

rejet and better quality plugs correct reach and heat range?Needle slides worn?

Dynos pretty expensive?

[PZR]

Testing your battery is easy. Take it out and take it to anyone who sells batterys, it does not have to be a bike shop, and ask them to do a discharge test on it. It takes seconds. They put a discharge meter on it and essentially short out the battery to see how well it holds or discharges the stored energy. If it drops quickly it is stuffed, if it does not drop it is probably ok. If you have a lead acid battery always keep the acid level topped up because if it drops it will effect the battery. Gel batteries cannot be changed. Batteries do not like NOT being used. They are most effective when charged and discharged reularly. Your charging system sounds fine at 14 volts running with lights on. Do you use the bike a lot, old crap petrol can cause lots of problems as the stuff we get these days goes off real quick and does not like sitting. I read recently that Ducatis do not like K & N type filters and can suffer up to a 10% loss of power with them. Try a short run without the filter (dry clean road) and see if that changes it any. Ask yourself what has changed from when it was ok to what it is like now. Re examine what you have touched. Claning out your carb float bowls sounds like a good idea after its been on its side. Cant see why the jets would change all of a sudden unless they got crap in them

[Duke of Rogan]

Originally posted by Redstar
Well I guess thats not going to be helped by a new Battery?

Standard plugs for my Bike $20 sooty obviously too rich?

rejet and better quality plugs correct reach and heat range?Needle slides worn?

Dynos pretty expensive?

yes, all good points, but I have replaced the battery (posted earlier) and it has improved the bike's running, and now I am just thinking ahead of possible mods.
for a little while I got confused 'cos the 4800RPM dead spot disappered while I still had the old battery, but I have put this down to removing the two rubber "horn" devices that guide (restrict) air into the air box.

I will check my plugs again tommorrow, last time I looked they were a bit sooty.
they're nothing special just plain old NGK's (I'll prolly get advice on spark plug brands now ;) ) not worth $20 each

[Duke of Rogan]

and thanks for the advice PZR, but I have already replaced the battery, which I'm 95% certain was atleast 75% of my problems.

and I installed a K&N a few weeks after I got it, 'cos it still had the original paper filter in it.

so now I think I need to get my mixture correct for running with semi-open air-box.

cheers guys:rockon:

[Duke of Rogan]

Originally posted by Redstar
Standard plugs for my Bike $20 sooty obviously too rich?

rejet and better quality plugs correct reach and heat range?Needle slides worn?

I think you're on to a winner here Redstar.
pulled one plug and its still quite sooty.
done some research (used the internet properly!) and have learnt a fair bit in the last hour about spark plugs.

the ones I have fitted are NGK DPR9EA-9 (gapped to 0.6mm) and the ones I replaced are DPR8EA-9 (slightly hotter)
the manual specifies Champion RA4HC 0.6mm gap, which converts to the DPR8EA-9, however the NGK site recommends DPR9EA-9 for my bike and so did Haldanes.

how to read NGK codes (http://www.concours.org/se/tech/ngk_plugs.html)

this site is really good for Ducks, and at the bottom of this page it describes plug conditions (mine fit the RICH description)
what your plugs are telling you (http://www.ducatisuite.com/sparkplugs.html)

could I have dirty plugs just because at the moment 80-90% of my ride time is daily commuting (low revs/idleling) ?

[nicko]

The 600SS is a tempramental girl and does not like short trips. I went through plugs every 1-2 months on mine when just commuting 6kms to work.

Best remedies:

Change plugs more often.

Take the long way to work.

Buy a jappa :)

[Duke of Rogan]

haha, cheers Nicko.

do you reckon the Iridium or platinum plugs are worth their dosh?
(guessing $20 each, compared to $5 each)

but if I'm replacing them often, then I'll stick to the cheapo's

and I know these plugs won't fix my fuel mixture problem :brick:

long way to work, reminds me of my first ride after getting the bike:

Browns Bay -> Albany -> Coatsville -> Kumeu -> Hobsonville -> turn around -> Kaukapapa -> Silverdale -> downtown Auckland (work)

[nicko]

...yeah like you said, if you're replacing them often just stick to cheapies - lucky you've only got 2 plugs to change at a time when they need replacing.

If your neighbours don't mind - let the engine idle for longer before you take off. I used to milk cows over my summers & I literally woke up whole houses on the way to work at 5AM on the Duke. Geez - what's wrong with a V-twin with no baffles at full noise early in the morning....some people!

 

 

 :rockon:

[Motu]

Cross referencing plugs is a trap - cross reference over several brands and by the time you get back to where you started you'll be trying to fit Model A Ford plugs in - Stick to the plug manufactuers listing.

Plat plugs are good for CDI,but they don't self clean - so a quick fang around the block won't clear fould plugs.I've had Bosch silvers in my bike for 4 yrs - I carry a new set of Densos ready to pop in if a miss sets in (yeah,you know where - Awakino Gorge at night in the rain with no tools...love pushing my luck)