Covering the clutch.

[Ms Piggy]

I was just wondering if any of your seasoned riders, or not so seasoned for that matter, cover your clutch at all times when you ride?

It was drilled into me by the scary guy that took me for my BHS test that I should ALWAYS cover my clutch. I've actually also noticed that by doing this it's worn my clutch lever on the underside & it kinda flops around.

So what do others think? Is this a good idea? Bad idea? Or just a matter or preference?

Ta Muchly.

[Zapf]

I've only had my VTR for 2 months done around 2500k's on weekends. have been covering clutch and front brakes as often as possible.

[jrandom]

I can understand covering the front brake, but why bother with the clutch? :spudwhat:

Just for the record, I don't do either. I'm too clumsy to manage good throttle control with two fingers hovering out in midair.

[Edit: any 'might as well tape it open' jokes about the FXR will be dealt to with extreme prejudice.]

[Blakamin]

I do in traffic, but only as I have to go thru so many gears to get around (up then down etc). I also have a tendency to cover the front brake before I go near any intersections

[Ms Piggy]

I also have a tendency to cover the front brake before I go near any intersections

I actually cover my front brake all the time as well, another thing the shouting scary man at my BHS day drilled.

[k14]

I never cover the clutch. Just move my fingers when i need to change gears. Don't see the reasoning behind covering it aye. Its much more important to cover the front brake IMO.

[Paul in NZ]

Most likely its vibration and use that has stuffed your clutch lever... Wobbling around in the pivot with all that soft alloy etc. Resting a finger on it would have probably slowed the wear down.

It's a good idea to cover your clutch lever but so is celibacy and I have not managed to do that either! In the real world it's not that easy is it? Ask yourself how often your engine will seize solid, locking up your rear wheel and you only save yourself by pulling in the clutch? Not often.... (well I hope not but I HAVE owned some bikes where it was)

Perhaps you are expecting an emergency gear change? No... Not often...

Since my other hand is whacking the throttle open, giving the front brake a death grip, whacking the throttle open etc etc it's not doing a lot of the old hanging on in grim faced terror of which I am so keen.

I do change gear a lot ('cos I like the VAROOOM noises and I'm pretty good at it) but I do need my left hand for a bit of hanging on along with the old adjusting the visor, fiddling with stuff and waving occasionally. Covering the clutch? I do it, but a low priority...

Mind you, it's a Guzzi so if anything did go pop it would be down stream of the engine and I could cover the clutch with a whole patoon of the Coldstream Guards complete with air cover and armour and it would make next to bugger all difference....

Your experience might differ.

Paul N

Sometimes ya gotta forget the text book bollocks.... Just RIDE the thing for FUN!!!

[F5 Dave]

Sort of depends, in the old days of 2 strokes it was required for saving seizures.

But yes I do tend to find myself covering the clutch when in traffic conditions, it is probably a good idea to remind learners to cover the clutch (as well as the front brake obviously) so they can remember to pull the clutch when required.

Give yourself a rest when you are at any speed though.

Don’t be scared of shouting Irishmen. Eyes up!!

Have I guessed right?

[sAsLEX]

covering the clutch can lead to reactionary things like pulling it on in an emergency which could go all pear shaped. Always cover the front brake though.

[F5 Dave]

covering the clutch can lead to reactionary things like pulling it on in an emergency which could go all pear shaped. . .

Yeah I used to think that. Engine braking & all, until I realised that the engine is not a brake & the rear brake has the power to lock the wheel at any speed, so as long as I practise not locking the rear brake there is nothing the engine can contribute.

For learners using the brakes is one of the most important things so many of the BHS stuff is trying to separate other influences. + many learners (esp. girls & I ONLY say that ‘cause some have small hands) wind the throttle as they reach for the brake. & I’ve taught as lot of people to brake.

[Blakamin]

Don’t be scared of shouting Irishmen. Eyes up!!

Have I guessed right?

what is his name???

[jrandom]

until I realised that the engine is not a brake & the rear brake has the power to lock the wheel at any speed

Yes.

Riding a light, highish-compression four stroke single like mine carries the temptation of thumping down a gear or two and letting the engine do the work as you approach intersections, but I've gradually weaned myself off that.

And after an interesting fishtail-gone-wrong dumping me on my backside on the motorway while filtering in the rain, I've decided that the rear brake is best avoided on my bike.

[F5 Dave]

what is his name???

I won’t say on the internerd as he is a friend & IMO a good teacher.

He still shouts at me when we go trials riding, but maybe it is someone else.

Instruction works though.

[Jackrat]

I don't cover my clutch and only cover the front brake if I'm in town and even then only coming up on uncontrolled intersections,How many of them are there in the citys??
I had a bike lock up on me on the southern Motorway once.I still managed to grab the clutch without any dramas.
Personal prefrence I think.
As for scary shouty blokes,the guy should find a new job.

[Angry Puppy]

Personaly I don't bother covering the clutch. I cover both brakes though when I'm passing a car waiting at an intersecction, driveway etc.

FB

[F5 Dave]

Yes.

Riding a light, highish-compression four stroke single like mine carries the temptation of thumping down a gear or two and letting the engine do the work as you approach intersections, but I've gradually weaned myself off that.

And after an interesting fishtail-gone-wrong dumping me on my backside on the motorway while filtering in the rain, I've decided that the rear brake is best avoided on my bike.


Some bikes have touchy rear brakes. I purposely bleed air into my 750’s rear as it is touchy, I’m getting around to putting a smaller calliper on it one day.

It is still worthwhile learning the feel of the rear esp in the wet as you won’t be using the front anywhere near enough.

Go find a carpark & practise rear only. The real key is to look on the horizon. If you drop your eyes & MOST learners do until you instruct them not to, heck ½ the so called experienced riders at track training days do to some extent, anyway you go where you look & if you look down then that is likely what will happen. If you look up & straight then the bike will very likely correct itself, unless perhaps the camber is off kilter.

One should never be afraid of the brakes.

[TwoSeven]

I never cover the clutch or the brakes. It'll get you a ticket in the UK if the copper is watching carefully enough. I once had a bike copper follow me half way across london watching my lever usage :(


When you cover a lever there is a tendancy to use it in an emergency (when your brain goes thru that startled bunny phase - grab lever first, think second). Pulling the wrong lever in at the wrong time can cause even more grief.

Clutch - will cause the rear wheel to lock and skid if braking.
Front brake - will cause the front wheel to lock and dump you on the ground.
Rear brake (excessive) will cause the rear to come round (and possibly dump you).

Any of the above in the wet will likely spit you off the bike.

So having that little bit of extra time locating the levers is often enough to allow the brain to engage properly.

If you think about it - having to grab those levers so fast that you need to constantly be covering them probably means your going to hit whatever it is anyhow.

[toads]

I don't cover the clutch unless I'm in the process of going up through the gears at the time, and only cover the brake in traffic, I'm left handed which makes my left hand pretty quick and there's no need, I also have my foot hovering over the back brake while going through traffic cos I never just whale on the front brake, icky things have been known to happen to me in times past, I always use front and rear brakes together., if I needed to change down gears in a huge hurry cos of an emergency I'd probably not even bother using the clutch, :devil2:

[sAsLEX]

another thing is try free wheeling through a corner with clutch in, repeat normally and feel the difference a bike will handle heaps different without the enigne-wheel conection going on.

[NC]

Yer, I do...

I think it's habbit from living in Orc-land... :Pokey:

[erik]

CSL, my clutch lever is kinda worn like that too.

I pretty much always cover the front brake when riding in traffic, but when I'm on the open road and there isn't much traffic, then I don't cover it.
Same with the clutch, I think.

I try to use the rear brake along with the front brake as often as I can, I find it makes quite a noticable difference and I figure if I keep practising it, then maybe it will one day shorten my stopping distance a bit in an emergency.

Tiggerz, can the uk cops really give you a ticket for covering the levers?

The way I see it is that if you're in an emergency and you have the front brake covered, all you have to do to stop is start to squeeze. If you don't have it covered, you've got to let go of the throttle grip and move your fingers up over the brake lever before you can even think about how hard to squeeze the brake. The extra time taken to move your fingers into position will also mean that you'll have less time to stop if you have to, so you'll have to brake harder than you would otherwise.

[jazbug5]

At the risk of being thought even more of a dolt (is that even possible ..?), could somebody explain the process of safe braking?
I haven't actually had anything bad happen yet, and have had to slam them on in a couple of 'situations', but I can't remember if I had the clutch depressed at the time or not... or what the hell I was doing. Hmmm.

PS
I know who the shouty man is, I know who the shouty man is..! :banana:

PPS Sorry didn't have time to reply to your note earlier, CSL... see ya on Friday night, though.. unless you fancy an after-work cobweb clearer, that is...!

[bgd]

Don't cover either clutch or front brake unless I think there maybe a problem developing. Will cover rear brake when filtering sometimes. Have a lot of engine braking (in the lower gears, i.e. filtering speeds) so a quick roll off the throttle and a bit of back brake slows me pretty quickly.

Wasn't aware of any UK restriction on covering levers, although training certainly frowned on it.

[riffer]

I don't cover the clutch when riding at all. Half the time I don't even use it for upshifting, just downshifting and coming to a stop (if I can't find neutral on the move).

If I am lanesplitting or coming up to intersections and I don't trust the cars I will hover over the front brake, but to be honest, I can find them pretty fast when I need to. It has't been a problem yet (fingers crossed).

[Blakamin]

PS
I know who the shouty man is, I know who the shouty man is..! :banana:


I'm thinking i might look at my Basic Handling cert... about the only bit that i remember is "eyes up"

[Ms Piggy]

I actually cover my front brake all the time as well, another thing the shouting scary man at my BHS day drilled.

Actually on my ride home tonight I realised that I never cover my brake - shouty man drilled into us NOT to do that! Saves knee jerk (well finger jerk really) reactions that cause you & your bike to end up on the tarmac.

[Ms Piggy]

Don’t be scared of shouting Irishmen. Eyes up!!

Have I guessed right?

Yes! It took me quite a while to get over that experience actually! :eek5:

[Gasman]

I was just wondering if any of your seasoned riders, or not so seasoned for that matter, cover your clutch at all times when you ride?

It was drilled into me by the scary guy that took me for my BHS test that I should ALWAYS cover my clutch. I've actually also noticed that by doing this it's worn my clutch lever on the underside & it kinda flops around.

So what do others think? Is this a good idea? Bad idea? Or just a matter or preference?

Ta Muchly.I only cover the clutch when approaching an intersection or a possible problem. Same with the front brake (although tend to hover there more often). Somehow I've never got used to riding with two finger out etc. - damned uncomfortable. Some people swear by it though.

I notice some of you like to use engine braking a lot. I'm trying to get out of the habit of using it just to slow up in normal situations, and notice that some web sites etc advise against it too. It's OK when approaching a changing light etc, but I guess it just comes down to the fact that the engine and drive train weren't designed to be brakes, so it saves wear to not use them that way.

[Ms Piggy]

At the risk of being thought even more of a dolt (is that even possible ..?), could somebody explain the process of safe braking?
I haven't actually had anything bad happen yet, and have had to slam them on in a couple of 'situations', but I can't remember if I had the clutch depressed at the time or not... or what the hell I was doing. Hmmm.

PS
I know who the shouty man is, I know who the shouty man is..! :banana:

PPS Sorry didn't have time to reply to your note earlier, CSL... see ya on Friday night, though.. unless you fancy an after-work cobweb clearer, that is...!

Yeah actually same here, same here. My first bin was from slamming on the back brake and now I rarely use it but, I still get quite nervous when I have to brake fast.

Jaz & I have already had a drink or two over shouty man and a couple of other women I know were traumatised by him too! Anyway enough about him.

Just sent you a PM Jaz - hope to see ya in your PJ's!

[FROSTY]

Well being totally saintly and all that--yea right
I always cover my clutch and my front brakes.
Actually I usually ride covering both. To me its a matter of reaction time
If I can pull in the clutch and down shift a half second faster then i might avoid that big truck that pulled out in front of me.
Same applies to the brakes.
It has done me well so far on the track too. I was covering the clutch on the hairpin at pukie ,so when Mella yella bogged down I slipped the clutch 125 style.

[Motu]

I do it all wrong,can't ride for shit,don't give a damn.

Last time I remember covering my clutch was Xmas 1974,actualy Xmas Day,after coming up SH16 (all gravel back then) and heading to my Uncles at Kaiwaka - I was kinda nervous with my bike.The 1950 B31 engine had a high comp piston and big carb,Gold Star cams,open exhaust,jetting carbs was unknown to me and ign timing was set with a pencil down the spark plug hole,measured with a school ruler (7/16 BTDC) and set with a cigarette paper through the points.Max speed for a B31 is 70mph - and I was cruising at that with stock gearing,I had a reason to be nervous...and yeah she locked up,but smarty pants here had his clutch covered eh.I learnt to build a motor better and don't cover my clutch anymore.

[James Deuce]

Cue non-PC joke:

I awrays cover my crutch. Is velly necessary to avoid emballasement.

Ba bump, pish!

Thank you, I'm on all night folks!

[jazbug5]

Oh, my sides.
Now, has anyone seen my stick..? The long one, with the hook in the end..?
:eek:

Oh, and this here looks interesting if anyone wants to look at something dead simple (for those of us who are a bit... well, simple...)

http://www.vinkenes.com/kristian/motorcycle_riding_technique.html

[Mongoose]

Another one about show great hignorance on the subject, Why cover your clutch, is this a hang over from days gone by when a rear wheel lock-up was always on the cards?
I mean, do you cover the clutch in a car, or for that matter if its an auto do you always cover the brake?
As you can safely assume, as a rule, except when things dictate otherwise, ie intersection etc, I never cover either brake nor clutch

[Ms Piggy]

Another one about show great hignorance on the subject, Why cover your clutch, is this a hang over from days gone by when a rear wheel lock-up was always on the cards?
I mean, do you cover the clutch in a car, or for that matter if its an auto do you always cover the brake?
As you can safely assume, as a rule, except when things dictate otherwise, ie intersection etc, I never cover either brake nor clutch

I think it was to be ready to change down in an instant. To be honest I can't remember - which is part of the reason I asked.

[Zapf]

I actually cover my front brake all the time as well, another thing the shouting scary man at my BHS day drilled.

funny that. I actually get scolled at for covering the front brakes @ CBTA. So I make sure its not covered when he is looking

[spudchucka]

Another one about show great hignorance on the subject, Why cover your clutch, is this a hang over from days gone by when a rear wheel lock-up was always on the cards?
The TL has a nasty habit of stalling at low engine revs, which obviously causes the rear wheel to lock up. Not good mid corner! Therefore I have learnt to cover the clutch through low speed corners to avoid an embaressing low speed highside. The fuel injection is also a bit snatchy as you roll on the gas out of low speed corners so a tiny bit of clutch helps with smooth acceleration. Before owning the TL I've never found any need to cover the clutch and the only reason I can think of it being taught in BHS test is to anticipate an emergency stop at relatively low speeds.

[Ms Piggy]

I think it was to be ready to change down in an instant. To be honest I can't remember - which is part of the reason I asked.
Actually if ya look at pg.2 of this post I retracted that :o I realised I actually never cover my brake, possibly b/c as F5 Dave said, tiny delicate hands can't cover the brake & use the throttle.

[Paul in NZ]

This is one thing I don't like about learn by formula teaching. It assumes one method is suitable to all people and bikes.. In my experience, it's not.

I suppose 'm an old fossil but I'd rather have a basic understanding of the mechanics of what is happening under me when I start hauling on things and what (very basically) that is doing to the structure I'm depending upon..

The Guzzi is a different bike to ride fast. It has massive flywheels and thus surprisingly little engine braking. It still has it's linked brakes too which I reckon are a marvelous thing to have. True, you don't get the stop in 3' thing modern bikes have but it is dead handy on an old big wheel bike as you can use them to settle the bike and trail them miles deeper into bend without compressing the suspension too much.

Whacking on the foot brake (rear disc and front left disc) hardly moves the bike. Grab a handful of front only and she stands up ready to spear off the out side of the bend. Add in a bit of torque reaction from stuffed up gear changes and you have a complete travelling circus to play with on every ride.. More fun than a pocket full of rabid weasels ....

As for the clutch? Great massive random shallow spline thing that acts quite odd when the bike gets hot... (they all do that sir)

I lurve my bike....

[Tigger]

Cathy, as you know I too had a 'less-than-pleasant' experience with the shouty man, and to be honest, I now can't remember a damn thing he was shouting at me. :mega: Maybe there were too many..... :o

Anyway, I certainly can't remember being told to cover the clutch, and I don't now generally, unless I think I'm going to need it soon.

Oh, actually I do remember something.....the order of things in coming to a stop 'throttle, front, clutch, rear, gear'. He made me repeat that 10 times like a naughty schoolgirl. :(

[vifferman]

another thing is try free wheeling through a corner with clutch in, repeat normally and feel the difference a bike will handle heaps different without the enigne-wheel conection going on.It's a factor of two things: the drive or deceleration (depending on whether the throttle is on or off), and more importantly, the gyroscopic effect of all that metal rotating in the engine, which provides stability in the same way that the spinning wheels do. You can use this to your advantage by blipping the throttle at very slow speeds in traffic to help balance the bike (except on bikes like Guzzis, CX500s and BMWs, where the torque effect of a logitudinal crankshaft tends to tilt the bike sideways (right-hand slap rule coming into play....)
That's why my left hand is so strong, as I spend a lot of time holding the clutch in, and them hydraulic clutches are good exercise machines...

The TL has a nasty habit of stalling at low engine revs, which obviously causes the rear wheel to lock up. Not good mid corner! Therefore I have learnt to cover the clutch through low speed corners to avoid an embaressing low speed highside. The fuel injection is also a bit snatchy as you roll on the gas out of low speed corners This is a "big V-twin" thing. On the VTR, retuning the carbs slightly richer and upping the idle to 1300 stops the "clunk and die" phenomenon (haven't had that for over a year now), but if I blip the throttle I can still get it to backfire through the carbs occasionally. No problems with snatchiness though, apart from the clutch, which is why I can't 'dip the clutch' to pull wheelies. Just as well it wheelies off the throttle. Not that I'd ever do that, of course.:whistle:
Can you adjust the idle speed on the TL? Surely there is an alternative map available with a PowerCommander or the like to sort out the snatchiness?

I don't cover anything except my arse: stay alert or die. Although sometimes I do ride with 1 or 2 fingers on the brake, usually in heavy traffic where I'm using it frequently. Don't use 4 fingers, as that would be overkill, or in fact, "lock up the front tyre and dump me on my head".
Don't use the rear brake, as it doesn't work, and I like the "BWAAOOORRRRRRRR!!!" from engine braking (which of course I never use, as the engine is not a brake and that's a bad habit. And it's naughty. And causes camchain tensioner failure. And deafness.)

[vifferman]

Oh, actually I do remember something.....the order of things in coming to a stop 'throttle, front, clutch, rear, gear'. He made me repeat that 10 times like a naughty schoolgirl. :(And are you a naughty schoolgirl? ;)

[F5 Dave]

I never cover the clutch or the brakes. It'll get you a ticket in the UK if the copper is watching carefully enough. I once had a bike copper follow me half way across london watching my lever usage :(


When you cover a lever there is a tendancy to use it in an emergency (when your brain goes thru that startled bunny phase - grab lever first, think second). Pulling the wrong lever in at the wrong time can cause even more grief.

Clutch - will cause the rear wheel to lock and skid if braking.
Front brake - will cause the front wheel to lock and dump you on the ground.
Rear brake (excessive) will cause the rear to come round (and possibly dump you).

Any of the above in the wet will likely spit you off the bike.

So having that little bit of extra time locating the levers is often enough to allow the brain to engage properly.

If you think about it - having to grab those levers so fast that you need to constantly be covering them probably means your going to hit whatever it is anyhow.


Not wanting to appear confrontational, but what a load of complete bollocks!

What on earth would a cop try to charge you with? Please!

As for the rest it smacks of the advice people use to give with bicycles -never touch the front brake. :killingme

[Tigger]

And are you a naughty schoolgirl? ;)

:whistle:

Nah, old and boring now....

[F5 Dave]

Now that we are on a soap box & slightly off the clutch topic (sorry CSL), but the one thing about braking is that practise is the only way to stay sharp.

I have been to numerous courses where practicing emergency braking from 100k was on the agenda. People were scared to do it. Yet happily rode on the motorway.

The more runs they do the dramatic improvement in stopping distance. At speed (even 50) every millisecond you are not using the brake you are travelling forward at pretty much the same speed. If you cover the brakes -& it might be that you only cover them in a situation is on the danger radar, but you will reduce the time it takes to get on the lever. Also you will be less likely to be making a ‘grabbing’ motion trying to get there quick.

The big thing with braking is to SQUEEZE. There is a feeling of modulating the lever pressure against the wheel so it in before the point of lockup that you must tune into. Once you have that feeling practised you can replicate it on most any surface & efficiently if it is practised.

You can also practise it in your brain when you are not riding. Yeah I’m serious.

If you haven’t practised recently then I humbly suggest; Find a carpark. Concentrate on keeping your eyes up & practise. Both brakes separately, then combined.

If the KB relative beginners want to they could organise a practise session in a safe comfortable environment. In wgtn if I have the time free I’d be glad to give a couple of pointers, but you might prefer to do it in seclusion.

[TwoSeven]

Not wanting to appear confrontational, but what a load of complete bollocks!

What on earth would a cop try to charge you with? Please!

As for the rest it smacks of the advice people use to give with bicycles -never touch the front brake. :killingme

I believe from memory the ticket the copper was going to give me was for careless driving :)

[F5 Dave]

He must have been a plonker, there's no way that would come off in court. Perhaps he had his eye on you & wanted a reason to pull you to see if you had a licence.

[TwoSeven]

Now that we are on a soap box & slightly off the clutch topic (sorry CSL), but the one thing about braking is that practise is the only way to stay sharp.
I

I agree. I have a little practice routine that I go thru when I have been working on the bike. Part of it involves stopping suddenly from various speeds - just so the old subconcious gets trained on how the bike reacts in an emergency.

[Gasman]

Very learned words Dave, and 100% correct (says he who almost rode into the the back of a hatchback last weekend because he wasn't looking properly!)
I especially like the bit about doing it in your head.....that really works.

[pete376403]

The only time I've ever really needed to cover the clutch was the one time I was riding with a broken clutch cable. Seized a kawasaki 350 bighorn at about 100km near the entrance to stokes valley. Rode it to a standstill (big fishtail thing, though) and the tyre was nicely flatspotted. It seized because my "racing developments" included outsmarting the factory by removing the oil pump and running pre-mix. (when you're 18 you know WAY more than the factory engineers)

[Zed]

I was just wondering if any of your seasoned riders, or not so seasoned for that matter, cover your clutch at all times when you ride?

It was drilled into me by the scary guy that took me for my BHS test that I should ALWAYS cover my clutch. I've actually also noticed that by doing this it's worn my clutch lever on the underside & it kinda flops around.

So what do others think? Is this a good idea? Bad idea? Or just a matter or preference?

Ta Muchly.
I prefer to ALWAYS keep my hands firmly on the grips at all times unless I am USING the clutch or front brake. In times of emergency I find my hand grips the lever in a split second and so I don't think that covering the lever 'just in case' is at all beneficial, in fact I think it's quite dangerous especially to a newbie rider. :no:

[vifferman]

The only time I've ever really needed to cover the clutch was the one time I was riding with a broken clutch cable. Seized a kawasaki 350 bighorn at about 100km near the entrance to stokes valley. Rode it to a standstill (big fishtail thing, though) and the tyre was nicely flatspotted. It seized because my "racing developments" included outsmarting the factory by removing the oil pump and running pre-mix. (when you're 18 you know WAY more than the factory engineers)Hey - I remember them things! Big, green and noisy!

[pete376403]

Hey - I remember them things! Big, green and noisy!

Thats the one. The only bike I've ever owned from new - $1169 in 1972.
If I took the carb cover off, it sounded a bit like a helicopter with the rotary valve "chopping" away. Used to shear flywheel keys until I lapped the rotor to the shaft. Wonder which tip it is at the bottom of now?

[Motu]

The adjustable forks seemed such a good idea at the time (to an 18yr old) did you ever try different axle positions?

[vifferman]

The adjustable forks seemed such a good idea at the time (to an 18yr old) did you ever try different axle positions?Then there was the pioneers of laying the rear shocks down to try to get a rising rate, or fitting tyre valves to the fork caps to get semi-pneumatic forks. All good stuff.
Or not...

[F5 Dave]

Then there was the pioneers of laying the rear shocks down to try to get a rising rate, or fitting tyre valves to the fork caps to get semi-pneumatic forks. All good stuff.
Or not...

Well depending where the shocks are it does give a rising rate, what’s your point?

By & large the big improvements have come from improvements in shock technology (like shims & bladders), not single shock placement.

Yes air was a crappy medium for boosting spring rate in the forks. The valves were useful for bleeding air out of them which tends to buildup on dirtbikes at least. My 2002 GasGas has bleed valves (albeit threaded) for this very pupose.

[spudchucka]

He must have been a plonker, there's no way that would come off in court. Perhaps he had his eye on you & wanted a reason to pull you to see if you had a licence.
A cop doesn't need "a reason" to pull you over to check licence details. Section 114 of the Land Transport Act 1998 gives the police that power, no other reason is required.

[FROSTY]

Never thought this would turn into a heated debate-eeep.
I think someone hit it on the head when they say its a bike/rider combination thing -so On some bikes there is a real need to cover the clutch.
I;m from an era where jap bike brakes really diddnt work too well in the wet
The secret was to actually keep the brakes a fraction on and drying the disk.
I would cover the clutch for fear of seizing and also to get that fraction more brakes

[F5 Dave]

A cop doesn't need "a reason" to pull you over to check licence details. Section 114 of the Land Transport Act 1998 gives the police that power, no other reason is required.

Well he said this was in the uk, & I realise that, but if ever I’ve been pulled over, which is not very often, the Cop has tried to justify why, so I suspect that this guy was justifying himself with some silly story about covering levers, I mean you wouldn’t pull someone up for that would you?

Course not, you’d probably pull someone who looked over his shoulder as if they were scared of you suggesting no licence or whatever. Something that alerted you to feel his collar & see what's what.

[F5 Dave]

Never thought this would turn into a heated debate-eeep.
I think someone hit it on the head when they say its a bike/rider combination thing -so On some bikes there is a real need to cover the clutch.
I;m from an era where jap bike brakes really diddnt work too well in the wet
The secret was to actually keep the brakes a fraction on and drying the disk.
I would cover the clutch for fear of seizing and also to get that fraction more brakes

Yeah I remember those days of crappy brake pads. You’d drag the brakes every so often to keep some heat in them else they would get totally wet & cold & not work, not work, Eek pull harder, not work, LOCK.

[jazbug5]

What F5 Dave says about practising makes heap big sense; if anyone wants to hook up and have a group practise session, I'd be up for it. I have no sense of shame about messing up in front of others, and in a way having others about so we can discuss what we're doing might actually help.
And if we do practise the braking at high speeds thing, it's be good to have some folk about to scrape our gibbering remains off the carpark if it goes a bit pear shaped.

[Cajun]

or to point laugh and take photos jaz to get back at you later dc:<

[spudchucka]

This is a "big V-twin" thing. On the VTR, retuning the carbs slightly richer and upping the idle to 1300 stops the "clunk and die" phenomenon (haven't had that for over a year now), but if I blip the throttle I can still get it to backfire through the carbs occasionally. No problems with snatchiness though, apart from the clutch, which is why I can't 'dip the clutch' to pull wheelies. Just as well it wheelies off the throttle. Not that I'd ever do that, of course.:whistle:
I never had the same problem on my 2000 VTR, it was really smooth. The TL's have a bad rep for snatchyness and low speed stalling, mines a classic example and you just learn to live with it. The problem can be sorted with a power commander, (I don't have one - too expensive) and the TRE mod apparently helps heaps too. I've been meaning to have a crack at making one but haven't gotten around to it yet.


Can you adjust the idle speed on the TL? Surely there is an alternative map available with a PowerCommander or the like to sort out the snatchiness?
Idle speed is adjustable, power commander as per above.


I don't cover anything except my arse: stay alert or die.
Good advice for any road user!


and I like the "BWAAOOORRRRRRRR!!!" from engine braking
Hell yes, I love that sound!!

[vifferman]

Well depending where the shocks are it does give a rising rate, what’s your point? What's my point? WHAT'S MY POINT?!?!!
You're too young to understand. In the 70s, dirt bikes was relatively heavy and had crappy suspension. People (like me and my mates) played around with new ideas, like welding extra mounting points for the rear shocks, to play with various angles to see how we could improve the suspension. And the air valves were for the same reason: Sticking valves in the caps, and taking the springs out or putting lighter-weight ones in, you could then use air as the primary (or subsdiary) springing medium, which gave you rising rate springing: the more the forks were compressed, the more the air was compressed, and the firmer the effective spring rate was. And the more the fork seals tended to blow, and spray ATF all over the bike and rider....

[F5 Dave]

What's my point? WHAT'S MY POINT?!?!!
You're too young to understand. ....


Great way to authenticate an argument. Don’t try to argue with me, I’m older -therefore right.

In those days Mum & dad would slash into use with a breadknife. Bikes were old & crappy. Nobody knows the trouble I’ve known. . .

Poor you. :crybaby:

[vifferman]

Great way to authenticate an argument. Don’t try to argue with me, I’m older -therefore right.

In those days Mum & dad would slash into use with a breadknife. Bikes were old & crappy. Nobody knows the trouble I’ve known. . .

Poor you. :crybaby:Do I need to throw lots of smilies into my posts so you know when I'm being silly? (which, BTW, is almost all the time, as I don't take myself too seriously at all...) Poor me? POOR ME!!???!:( :angry: :shutup: :pinch: :crazy: :crybaby: :crybaby:

Bwahahahahaha!!1

Nah.
It's got nothing to do with being right - I was just reminiscing about the "Old Days", coz what Pete678901 and Motu reminded me of biking in the 70s. I don't give a crap about being right or not. :scooter: What you threw in there may or mayn't have been right, but it derailed my twaddling on. Keep up the good work.
Tally ho, and all that.

[TwoSeven]

In my day - use't live in hole in't road. Bikes - us't dream about bikes. We had mules we did. We had t' get up at 5 am every mornin and carry mule t' pit so as not 't tire it out.

[vifferman]

In my day - use't live in hole in't road. Bikes - us't dream about bikes. We had mules we did. We had t' get up at 5 am every mornin and carry mule t' pit so as not 't tire it out.Mules?!? Y'had mules!?? Pure luxury, that is! We had a dead dog, and had t'carry fleas 'round fer it. Used t' dream 'bout havin' a mule. But me Da' used to say "Transpor'??! I'll give y' ruddy transpor'!!" and give us a kick fair oop t' jacksie! Ooh, how we did larf!

[F5 Dave]

In my day - use't live in hole in't road. Bikes - us't dream about bikes. We had mules we did. We had t' get up at 5 am every mornin and carry mule t' pit so as not 't tire it out.


not bad :killingme :killingme

[Ms Piggy]

Now that we are on a soap box & slightly off the clutch topic (sorry CSL), but the one thing about braking is that practise is the only way to stay sharp.

I have been to numerous courses where practicing emergency braking from 100k was on the agenda. People were scared to do it. Yet happily rode on the motorway.

The more runs they do the dramatic improvement in stopping distance. At speed (even 50) every millisecond you are not using the brake you are travelling forward at pretty much the same speed. If you cover the brakes -& it might be that you only cover them in a situation is on the danger radar, but you will reduce the time it takes to get on the lever. Also you will be less likely to be making a ‘grabbing’ motion trying to get there quick.

The big thing with braking is to SQUEEZE. There is a feeling of modulating the lever pressure against the wheel so it in before the point of lockup that you must tune into. Once you have that feeling practised you can replicate it on most any surface & efficiently if it is practised.

You can also practise it in your brain when you are not riding. Yeah I’m serious.

If you haven’t practised recently then I humbly suggest; Find a carpark. Concentrate on keeping your eyes up & practise. Both brakes separately, then combined.

If the KB relative beginners want to they could organise a practise session in a safe comfortable environment. In wgtn if I have the time free I’d be glad to give a couple of pointers, but you might prefer to do it in seclusion.

Hey Dave - I'm glad this has progressed onto braking actually. I'd be very keen to get some braking pointers. As long as you promise not to shout :wacko:

[F5 Dave]

No drama. Have to think of a decent venue what with Sunday shopping these days (oops that dates me a bit) I’ll PM you my cell number (or Lynda has hm no.)

[James Deuce]

Hey Dave - I'm glad this has progressed onto braking actually. I'd be very keen to get some braking pointers. As long as you promise not to shout :wacko:

He makes a lot of sotto voce derisory comments and snorts quite a bit when provoked. His voice also raises in pitch a lot, indicating that he may well have some Newcastle ancestry.

[Jackrat]

Never thought this would turn into a heated debate-eeep.
I think someone hit it on the head when they say its a bike/rider combination thing -so On some bikes there is a real need to cover the clutch.
I;m from an era where jap bike brakes really diddnt work too well in the wet
The secret was to actually keep the brakes a fraction on and drying the disk.
I would cover the clutch for fear of seizing and also to get that fraction more brakes

Ha Ha Ha,From an era ya' reckon!!
I still need to heat an keep dry me front brakes today,Don't everybody??? :sweatdrop :whistle:

[Posh Tourer :P]

What F5 Dave says about practising makes heap big sense;

Yes, him make heap big sense. Perhaps we should organise a working lunch to discuss it....

[F5 Dave]

He makes a lot of sotto voce derisory comments and snorts quite a bit when provoked. His voice also raises in pitch a lot, indicating that he may well have some Newcastle ancestry.

OOOh don't he speak right posh. I had to look it up, something to do with a small choir.

Newcastle? Maybe if we traced the mitochondrial dna there might be a link, but not in the last 4 generations.

Jackrat, try some heavily sintered pads & higher iron content discs might be nice. Those early jap ones were virtually stainless so they didn't rust.

[bgd]

Well we've had the clutch and then the brakes but this morning I was covering the horn. Something has been wrong on my route all week and the traffic has been murder. This means impatient drivers and lots more sudden lane changing. I can go for months without a beep but this morning had to use if 4 times.

[magnum]

no need to,cover front brake around town for survival purposes only. :niceone:

[bgd]

Well we've had the clutch and then the brakes but this morning I was covering the horn. Something has been wrong on my route all week and the traffic has been murder. This means impatient drivers and lots more sudden lane changing. I can go for months without a beep but this morning had to use if 4 times.

[scumdog]

Mules?!? Y'had mules!?? Pure luxury, that is! We had a dead dog, and had t'carry fleas 'round fer it. Used t' dream 'bout havin' a mule. But me Da' used to say "Transpor'??! I'll give y' ruddy transpor'!!" and give us a kick fair oop t' jacksie! Ooh, how we did larf!

Eee-oop laad! sounds lahk your father wus my father 'cept mine spoke eith a Scots accent and said " :blink: Trransport???! I'll give yoo bluddy trransport" etc

[erik]

I previously posted that I cover the front brake around town, and also probably the clutch.

But the last couple of days I've kinda been paying more attention to what I've been doing and I've found that I only really cover the brake if or clutch if I think I might need to use them, like if I'm coming up to an intersection, or following a car in busy traffic, etc.
On the ride to uni, I think I'm pretty much covering the front brake the whole time though, because it's rush hour and traffic jams the whole way.

[jrandom]

On the ride to uni, I think I'm pretty much covering the front brake the whole time though, because it's rush hour and traffic jams the whole way.

Have you not yet become as one with the Tao of Filtering, young man?

[erik]

Have you not yet become as one with the Tao of Filtering, young man?

I filter a bit depending on my mood, but I still cover the brake just in case someone decides to change lanes or the gaps get too small or something.

[Coldkiwi]

i have front brake, rear brake and clutch covered at all times when filtering. At 60kmhr you don't have a lot of time to identify which idiot is going to change lanes without using their indicators and if they do its
-back brake firm very closly followed by
-clutch partially in and front brake on pronto !
-rest of back brake until it threatens to skip

[vifferman]

Eee-oop laad! sounds lahk your father wus my father 'cept mine spoke eith a Scots accent and said " :blink: Trransport???! I'll give yoo bluddy trransport" etcMine should have had a Scottish accent (ancestry), and his name was Roger.
"Rrrrrogerrrrr? Ah'll gie ye a rrrrrright rrrrrrrogerrrrrrring, lud!"

[pete376403]

The adjustable forks seemed such a good idea at the time (to an 18yr old) did you ever try different axle positions?
Yeah, the "hatta" fork (named for the designer, Mr Hatta). I put the axle in the front position, wound up the spring tension and dropped the yokes down the stanchions, all in the hope of quickening the steering a bit as the main riding area was karipoti, which is pretty tight countryside.
Actually the whole bike was pretty adjustable. The advertising was based around all the adjustments you could make to set the bike up - 3 spring preloads front and rear, footpeg position, front axle position etc. I don't know if it really made that much difference. I do know that with the later kawasaki trailies such the F11 250 they dropped the hatta fork and all the other adjustments and the bikes were probably better for it.

[Skyryder]

another thing is try free wheeling through a corner with clutch in, repeat normally and feel the difference a bike will handle heaps different without the enigne-wheel conection going on.

Not a safe thing to do. Engine compression helps the bike to track. Get it wrong freewheeling and you are out of control.

I rarely cover the clutch unless I have been forewarned that I may have to shift. I like both my hands firmly on the handle bars. There have been times when I have had to down shift and brake at the same time. But prefer not to have to do this.

Skyryder

[F5 Dave]

Not a safe thing to do. Engine compression helps the bike to track. Get it wrong freewheeling and you are out of control. . . .



Total urban myth.

One I used to believe & I’m always advocating being in the right gear at the right time when you need to open the throttle again. Engine braking does have its part whilst normal riding, but we were talking about emergency braking.

If you are braking at the limit then the front wheel is just off locking, the rear wheel is just off locking, then extra engine braking would just lock the rear wheel. The throttle is shut so there is no real power, certainly nothing that could be effective against the power of the rear brake. So how can the ‘compression’ help?

When I’m racing, depending on the corner I may go down 3 gears at a time & the clutch is in, yes I’m feeding it back in later so I have a stable platform & so I can have some driving force to keep the weight off the front wheel at the apex, but the point is these are hairpin corners at max braking & the clutch is in for a reasonable part of it.

Maybe previously you had an older Guzzi where the brakes consisted of 2 cinder blocks rubbing against a piece of wood & any assistance from the engine was welcome.

(That should get the purists on my case). ;)

[James Deuce]

Total urban myth.

One I used to believe & I’m always advocating being in the right gear at the right time when you need to open the throttle again. Engine braking does have its part whilst normal riding, but we were talking about emergency braking.

If you are braking at the limit then the front wheel is just off locking, the rear wheel is just off locking, then extra engine braking would just lock the rear wheel. The throttle is shut so there is no real power, certainly nothing that could be effective against the power of the rear brake. So how can the ‘compression’ help?

When I’m racing, depending on the corner I may go down 3 gears at a time & the clutch is in, yes I’m feeding it back in later so I have a stable platform & so I can have some driving force to keep the weight off the front wheel at the apex, but the point is these are hairpin corners at max braking & the clutch is in for a reasonable part of it.

Maybe previously you had an older Guzzi where the brakes consisted of 2 cinder blocks rubbing against a piece of wood & any assistance from the engine was welcome.

(That should get the purists on my case). ;)

I took 4 seconds off my Manfield time on the RC30 after reading how Mick Doohan used to pull the clutch in whilst braking and then turning on the RVF750 at the Suzuka 8 hour. 2 strokes have just about no engine braking and he used to find the 4 stroke difficult to manage until he did that. It allowed him to have the correct exit gear sorted and he could concentrate on traction up to the apex.

[Mongoose]

Total urban myth.

One I used to believe & I’m always advocating being in the right gear at the right time when you need to open the throttle again. Engine braking does have its part whilst normal riding, but we were talking about emergency braking.
(That should get the purists on my case). ;)

Yep, emergency stopping its all levers in. That is hit the front brake, jump on the brake lever and haul the clutch in. Mind you with the super light weight Guzzi clutch, stopping would probaley take another block if you did not pull the clutch in!!
Besides if things pan out and you manage to miss what ever caused the emergency, you are now in a position to find a gear and get the hell out of there and not have a stalled and probabley flooded engine to contend with