Government's America's Cup support: [Archive]

vifferman

6th July 2007, 10:14

Do you think the Government should provide millions to support the NZ based America's Cup Challenges?
"NZ based"?
It's not really. There are some New Zealanders in the crew, but that's the case with Oracle and Alinghi too (and other yachts).
Perhaps the Gubmint (i.e., us) should support ALL the teams?

No, I think not. Calling them "Team NZ" doesn't actually make them our representatives - they're in it for themselves (and a reasonably fat wage packet too, if the $20million PAYE they paid is anything to go by...)

denill

6th July 2007, 10:20

yes

but hasn't this already been discussed ......
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=52996

This thread is a Poll on the subject - to see what the consenus is.

A bit slow setting up the Poll, sorry.

Whynot

6th July 2007, 10:22

"NZ based"?
It's not really. There are some New Zealanders in the crew, but that's the case with Oracle and Alinghi too (and other yachts).
Perhaps the Gubmint (i.e., us) should support ALL the teams?

No, I think not. Calling them "Team NZ" doesn't actually make them our representatives - they're in it for themselves (and a reasonably fat wage packet too, if the $20million PAYE they paid is anything to go by...)

Team NZ are "NZ Based"
The challange is organised by the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron in Auckland and one condition of them getting money from the government is that they will defend the cup in NZ.

ManDownUnder

6th July 2007, 10:27

If the team in question brings the cup to NZ then I don't give a rats who that team is - the Govt should sponsor it.

Team NZ seems the most likely candidate of course, but if was an all Greek team sailing in our waters, NZ would still reap the economic benefits so... sponsor them.

You have to spend it to make it... SPEND IT

Freakshow

6th July 2007, 10:49

Hell yes this is a sport we dominate in! Millions of international dollars are spent in NZ due to this regatta because we are the best.

There was an aerial video shot of the regatta harbour and there were about 30 inflatable protector boats that are used for umpires marshalls and controlling the spectators. They were all made here in NZ because they are the best. Most of the masts are made here because they are the best. That is to name a few of hundreds of products that are made in NZ and sold internationally because they are the best!

Whynot

6th July 2007, 10:53

Colapop

6th July 2007, 10:58

I have no problems spending the money on it if it is for the benefit of a NZ team. The thing is that this sport does base itself on national pride - it is a professional sport. Good on all the kiwi's that sail for the 'opposition' they're earning an income. But the reality is this team is not a national team. Why should our government support a professional team? We have professional sports people that play sport all over the world - golf, soccer, gridiron... etc should our government buy a stake in all of the teams that they are involved in?

denill

6th July 2007, 11:02

Yeah? We're the best.

So What? We're the best (sometimes) at Rugby too and how much of the World gives a rat's arse either??:zzzz::zzzz:

Whynot

6th July 2007, 11:04

But the reality is this team is not a national team.

It never has been, people just tend to make up their own minds.

Why should our government support a professional team?

Because the team is potentially going to bring a large long term international event to NZ if it wins. Which will generate revenue due to tourism, related industries etc. etc. etc.
They are also a bloody good team and have a good chance of winning it.

denill

6th July 2007, 11:09

It never has been, people just tend to make up their own minds.

Because the team is potentially going to bring a large long term international event to NZ if it wins. Which will generate revenue due to tourism, related industries etc. etc. etc.
They are also a bloody good team and have a good chance of winning it.

This does go round and round!

So why not support ALL export businesses, like Winemaking, sheep farming etc. The Guvmint just taxes the shit out of them - and then gives it to the Americas Cup challenge? :shit::shit:

Freakshow

6th July 2007, 11:28

Yeah? We're the best.

So What? We're the best (sometimes) at Rugby too and how much of the World gives a rat's arse either??:zzzz::zzzz:

The difference is our national team is wearing a German brand ( I think it is German ADIDAS) and not a Kiwi brand.

Yet most of the boats have Kiwi crew, parts, technology. And the regatta organisers are using kiwi products.

Sitting in middle of europe and they are shipping kiwi products from the butt end of the world. This is something to be proud of and promote as it does turn euros in the $NZD

Last time I remember the aussie rugby team were wearing caterbury clothing so wha does that say. And The government has done the right thing assisting NZ rugby to hold the worldcup that again bring money to NZ.

Isn't that the goal invest $30mill to get $100s of mill spent in the NZ economy. Sounds very close to helping a rugby team.

Ghost_Bullet

6th July 2007, 13:02

At the end of the day they are team New Zealand, puts the name out there, to weather you can quantify the return on investment of 10 million dollars or not. Tourisum surley would be boosted, and even greater returns if they get the race held at home.

I am sure 10million is only a small part of the total cost to get out on the water... I am sure the govt could easily use/waste money very easy in other sectors, but this is not somthing that I would deem worthless.

Maybe though we should invest some money to buy some top Gridiron players to play for NZ to head out for the Superbowel!!!! :shit:

Grub

6th July 2007, 14:08

What you have to consider is the overall cost of advertising. It's a fact of life that NZ has to sell itself. Tourism is a major income source that supports our way of life. Therefore we have to attract people by advertising.

Here's what a 30second TV advert costs for one play only in the US and what we would get for our 10 million.
- During American Idol on Fox NZ$805,000 (US$620,000) = running the ad only 11 times
- Low end, during The Office on NBC NZ$284,415 = running the ad 35 times

In case you think that 35 times is ok, it's not. For you (or anyone else) to retain and respond to the message, you have to see it all the way through and pay full attention to it no less than 3 times. For that to happen it has to be played nearly 60 times in different slots

Next thing, who believes what they see in ads anyway! Stories, background and information about New Zealand that comes via coverage of a sustained event like the americas Cup allows someone to forumlate their own view and thus be far more influenced by what they are seeing and the positive context in which they're seeing it.

To put the money in perspective, as Advertising Manager for a major NZ car manufacturer, my advertising budget for only the NZ domestic market was just over $10m

Short story, the Americas Cup is a bargain.

Skyryder

6th July 2007, 14:45

I'm in the don't care catorgory. I can see the advantage in government sponsership then I can also see the money spent for those who better need it. Multi millionaires do not rate very high in my catorgory of the needy.

Skyryder

Swoop

6th July 2007, 15:20

Well. It appears that the gummint want its pound of flesh in return.
The team members (crew/shore crew/support) are being made to have their wages paid in NZ, instead of offshore payments in US dollars.
Cullen gets his filthy hands on another source of income for his surplus.
Also, the IRD get access...

There are a lot of unhappy team members. I know of one who has said that he will be going to another syndicate simply for financial reasons.

Dilligaf

6th July 2007, 15:34

........ worthless.

Maybe though we should invest some money to buy some top Gridiron players to play for NZ to head out for the Superbowel!!!! :shit:

The <shit> smiley next to it tops it off!!!!

Had to think long and hard about posting a spelling mistake, but it was too good to pass up....

Yeah you'd have to pay them lots to play in bowels.... :dodge: :dodge:

SARGE

6th July 2007, 15:54

Yeah you'd have to pay them lots to play in bowels.... :dodge: :dodge:

especially one so large as to be considered ...

" Super"...

rogson

6th July 2007, 16:09

Govt "investing" $10m in TeamNZ? - seems more like "gambling" to me.

Why not contract to give TeamNZ (or any team for that matter) $50m when they next hold the cup defence in NZ.

westie

6th July 2007, 20:09

"NZ based"?
It's not really. There are some New Zealanders in the crew, but that's the case with Oracle and Alinghi too (and other yachts).
Perhaps the Gubmint (i.e., us) should support ALL the teams?

No, I think not. Calling them "Team NZ" doesn't actually make them our representatives - they're in it for themselves (and a reasonably fat wage packet too, if the $20million PAYE they paid is anything to go by...)

Thats over four years and with land based team, builders and designers(always charge too much). Its alot of people.

Maybe some volunteers would keep the cost down and lower your tax. Could any one volunteer for four years?

Patrick

6th July 2007, 21:24

Probably already been said, but it is a good advertiser for NZ, attracting tourists and the like, rich or well to do, who will spend lotsa $$$. Win win for this little dot on the landscape really...

Ghost_Bullet

7th July 2007, 00:05

The <shit> smiley next to it tops it off!!!!

Had to think long and hard about posting a spelling mistake, but it was too good to pass up....

Yeah you'd have to pay them lots to play in bowels.... :dodge: :dodge:

especially one so large as to be considered ...

" Super"...

Gud darnit....

onearmedbandit

7th July 2007, 00:14

I voted no, because of some reason but I forget.

Kickaha

7th July 2007, 07:47

If the team in question brings the cup to NZ then I don't give a rats who that team is - the Govt should sponsor it.

If the Goverment applied that to the likes of Josh Coppins, Ben Townley and any other Kiwis competing at a international level then I might agree with you, they don't so fuck them

denill

7th July 2007, 10:13

If the Goverment applied that to the likes of Josh Coppins, Ben Townley and any other Kiwis competing at a international level then I might agree with you, they don't so fuck them

Ditto....................

MattRSK

7th July 2007, 10:16

Its only money, and money will have no control once I am finished. The revolution is now!

ManDownUnder

7th July 2007, 11:59

If the Goverment applied that to the likes of Josh Coppins, Ben Townley and any other Kiwis competing at a international level then I might agree with you, they don't so fuck them

The govt has the fine line to walk though... do what's dispassionately in the best interests of NZ and not showing favour to any individual.

I see them doing that backing Team NZ. I'm not saying Josh, Ben, Shaun etc are NOT worthy recipients of support - not at all. I'm simply raising the econonmics of it all, at a national level. With the greatest of respect, I don't think any of the guys mentioned (or the events they're involved in) really rate as having economic impact that hits the radar.

Sad but true - yachting is full of the wealthy, and if we can bring 'em to NZ they spend money and we all benefit...

Patrick

7th July 2007, 12:37

If the Goverment applied that to the likes of Josh Coppins, Ben Townley and any other Kiwis competing at a international level then I might agree with you, they don't so fuck them

Therein lies the difference... the Americas Cup, right or wrong, is beamed across the world seen by millions of viewers. Josh, Ben and any other Kiwis in these fields, simply don't have the same pulling power.

denill

7th July 2007, 12:43

Therein lies the difference... the Americas Cup, right or wrong, is beamed across the world seen by millions of viewers. Josh, Ben and any other Kiwis in these fields, simply don't have the same pulling power.

So do you know the viewing figures?? If Not - don't make that statement. :spanking:

You may well be VERY surprised as Youthstream has a huge coverage!! And I would expect it to be bigger than America's Cup.

Patrick

7th July 2007, 12:48

So do you know the viewing figures?? If Not - don't make that statement. :spanking:

You may well be VERY surprised as Youthstream has a huge coverage!! And I would expect it to be bigger than America's Cup.

Yes... its actually tens of millions... I am contacting each and every one to confirm right now as we speak...

Youthstream... maybe... but they don't have the big bucks to spend when travelling...

denill

7th July 2007, 12:51

The Tax money this populist Govt is spending on America's Cup and the Rugby Cup is just another vote catching strategy.

That is why minority sports like ours will never get a look in.

denill

7th July 2007, 12:54

Yes... its actually tens of millions... I am contacting each and every one to confirm right now as we speak...

Youthstream... maybe... but they don't have the big bucks to spend when travelling...

So you reckon viewers of America's Cup have lotsa money. Then I'd better start watching the boring bloody thing.

Patrick

7th July 2007, 12:59

The Tax money this populist Govt is spending on America's Cup and the Rugby Cup is just another vote catching strategy.

That is why minority sports like ours will never get a look in.

Yep... motoX pulls in crowds and fills those massive stadiums all the time...:zzzz:

So you reckon viewers of America's Cup have lotsa money. Then I'd better start watching the boring bloody thing.

Tried that too, didn't work. But checked out the super yachts in the Viaduct last time round... They were not motoX supporters. As far as I could tell, I think they might possibly have been there for the yachting... Call me crazy...

Haven't seen any super yachts arrive for any dirt bike event...

denill

7th July 2007, 13:31

Yep... motoX pulls in crowds and fills those massive stadiums all the time...:zzzz:

Tried that too, didn't work. But checked out the super yachts in the Viaduct last time round... They were not motoX supporters. As far as I could tell, I think they might possibly have been there for the yachting... Call me crazy...

Haven't seen any super yachts arrive for any dirt bike event...

OK Patrick, you have given us your theories - now give us some facts.

Check out this from Youthstream.

Average number of TV audience world wide per event

2005 - 34 million

2006 - 39.5 million

http://www.motocrossmx1.com/default.aspx?cs=9&type=news&id=1190

And this is worth a read if you are still with us.

http://www.amaproracing.com/prorace/pdf/2006%20MX%20ATTENDANCE.pdf

Kickaha

7th July 2007, 13:55

I see them doing that backing Team NZ. I'm not saying Josh, Ben, Shaun etc are NOT worthy recipients of support - not at all. I'm simply raising the econonmics of it all, at a national level. With the greatest of respect, I don't think any of the guys mentioned (or the events they're involved in) really rate as having economic impact that hits the radar..

What economic impact did the Americas cup last held in NZ on me or hundreds of thousands of other NZ public, 5/5ths of fuck all

Sad but true - yachting is full of the wealthy, and if we can bring 'em to NZ they spend money and we all benefit...

That's a big if

denill

7th July 2007, 14:01

But like I said before - I am quite sure that it is more about votes. :Punk:

rwh

7th July 2007, 14:25

Govt "investing" $10m in TeamNZ? - seems more like "gambling" to me.

Why not contract to give TeamNZ (or any team for that matter) $50m when they next hold the cup defence in NZ.

Heard an interesting theory the other day - that NZ actually does better from having a strong presence in a European venue than from bringing it home. When it's there, it's in the right timezone for more people to watch it on TV, and more people can get there to watch in person. And it's fairly obvious to anyone who does watch it that NZers are pretty good at it, even if the national team doesn't actually win - since we're on all the boats, both as crew and providing equipment, anyway.

Richard

denill

7th July 2007, 14:36

Heard an interesting theory the other day - that NZ actually does better from having a strong presence in a European venue than from bringing it home. When it's there, it's in the right timezone for more people to watch it on TV, and more people can get there to watch in person.
Richard

So I guess you will agree that Josh is doin a great job for NZ. 30.5 million (on '06 figures) viewing the Kiwi keep the red plate. And in the right time zone.

Swoop

7th July 2007, 16:21

Then I'd better start watching the boring bloody thing.
I'm concerned with those who watch tennis. That IS boring. A ball goes back and forth... and back and forth... :thud:

Patrick

8th July 2007, 19:21

OK Patrick, you have given us your theories - now give us some facts.

Check out this from Youthstream.

Average number of TV audience world wide per event

2005 - 34 million

2006 - 39.5 million

http://www.motocrossmx1.com/default.aspx?cs=9&type=news&id=1190

And this is worth a read if you are still with us.

http://www.amaproracing.com/prorace/pdf/2006%20MX%20ATTENDANCE.pdf

Not bad, but TV audience for the Americas Cup was estimated at over 100 million viewers... per race!!! The Chinese boat would have pulled that many in alone, even though it was a dog... but it did beat Oracle!!

The crowds on the wharves were put at 70000. Not including that which was out on the water...

And again I say... visit the Viaduct Basin next time the cup is here and try and tell me wealth hasn't come to town... I'll keep an eye out for the motor racers super yachts, but haven't seen any yet...

I'm concerned with those who watch tennis. That IS boring. A ball goes back and forth... and back and forth... :thud:

Agreed... but how about Golf...:zzzz: Can get funny when someone slices off a shot and it smacks some dozey prick in the head in the crowd...

ManDownUnder

9th July 2007, 10:16

What economic impact did the Americas cup last held in NZ on me or hundreds of thousands of other NZ public, 5/5ths of fuck all

Previously answered in this thread.

Also - let's look at it like this.... $10m spent on the America's cup... that's $2.50/New Zealander.

Let's assume it's a total nett loss... you're bitching and moaning about $2.50?

That's a big if

Not really considering the position we've been in in the last few regattas... besides... risk and return. No risk = no yield. I'd prefer the country to risk a bit and make some dosh...

denill

9th July 2007, 10:45

Previously answered in this thread.

Also - let's look at it like this.... $10m spent on the America's cup... that's $2.50/New Zealander.

Let's assume it's a total nett loss... you're bitching and moaning about $2.50?

10mil is just to (perhaps) keep the team together. It's a bottomless pit! What say they just ask for donations. Then I can decide if I want to contribute. lol

ManDownUnder

9th July 2007, 10:48

10mil is just to (perhaps) keep the team together. It's a bottomless pit! What say they just ask for donations. Then I can decide if I want to contribute. lol

Problem is you can't opt out of the benefits too.... they're too hard to quantify.

Eg - a boatbuilder gets more wore from the cup coming to NZ (as it previously has).. they get more money, they take on more staff, and those staff now have more money too. They come to you and buy your goods 9or use your services) and now you have more money too... the trickle down is working, but you have no way of knowing exactly how much better off you are.

denill

9th July 2007, 10:49

When a prospective sailor asked an oldtimer what it would cost to go sailing he was told "If you need to ask, you can't afford it".

That doesn't affect Helen and Mallard of course.:yes::yes:

denill

9th July 2007, 10:52

Problem is you can't opt out of the benefits too.... they're too hard to quantify.

Eg - a boatbuilder gets more wore from the cup coming to NZ (as it previously has).. they get more money, they take on more staff, and those staff now have more money too. They come to you and buy your goods 9or use your services) and now you have more money too... the trickle down is working, but you have no way of knowing exactly how much better off you are.

So as I have written before and of course been ignored: Do you reckon we subsidise Farmers, Winemakers, et al exporters. Nah, it is about politics (votes).

ManDownUnder

9th July 2007, 10:55

So as I have written before and of course been ignored: Do you reckon we subsidise Farmers, Winemakers, et al exporters. Nah, it is about politics (votes).

If the expected return is greater than the investment, yes.

Problem is we also have a number of international trade agreements that prevent tarrifs being put on competitive products or subsidies being aplpies to local products, and opting out of those trade agreements would cost NZ more than being in them (all things considered).

So that answer is yes - but we can't because of the greater good of the country's economy (again - I refer back to the trickledown, but swap in famers, vintners etc instead of boatbuilders)

Kickaha

9th July 2007, 18:41

Previously answered in this thread.

Also - let's look at it like this.... $10m spent on the America's cup... that's $2.50/New Zealander.

Let's assume it's a total nett loss... you're bitching and moaning about $2.50?

$10m was the starting figure with perhaps another $24m to be tossed in

I'd be willing to bet that you wouldn't get every NZer to put in $2.50 if you asked them to fund a boat race

Wonder how many operations that would fund in the public health sector
and how much shorter it'd get the waiting lists?, never mind I'm sure the benefits we'll get from loosing the Americas cup will more than compensate

ManDownUnder

10th July 2007, 10:18

never mind I'm sure the benefits we'll get from loosing the Americas cup will more than compensate

Not sure if you meant to do this but... I agree... I'm willing to bet coming 2nd had a spinoff also -albeit considerably less profitable than winning the thing..

Whether it breaks even is debatable but the loss will be minimised by the boost to the associated industries.

Out of curiousity... how much of the $10m (or $24m... whatever that overall total is) will be injected directly back into the NZ economy anyway? Training... some is done here, boat building - done here... etc.

I bet 1/3 of it is effectively the Govt "releasing cash" straight back into NZ anyway