The Robert Taylor suspension thread

[Robert Taylor]

I would be very very surprised if the Repco cheapies were the same brand and overall spec. But if Im wrong so be it. Yes, a lot of pricing doesnt indeed stack up.

As for supply chains ex factories the sheer volume they shift would be massive. But the biggest single problem is that a small distributor in a small country just cannot stock everything. Especially as we still want all the trappings of the Western world, and the market is further complicated with an enormous number of variations of import models. If they havent got the parts in stock then the pressure is on. Factories are geared to supplying volume to their distributors, not one off small shipments every second of the day. That I can fully understand even if many arent prepared to even begin to understand that side of the equation.

Having said that I can have parts sent from a relatively small manufacturer in Stockholm ( Ohlins ) on a Friday and have them here the following Tuesday, if someone is in a big rush. But that does incur a bit of a freight penalty. Because we provide service none of the NZ distributors who import bikes fitted oem with Ohlins stock Ohlins parts. In fact they can purchase Ohlins parts off me more cost effectively because I deal direct with Ohlins as the manufacturer.

And yes there is a place for specialists because you cannot accumulate experience overnight. But evidence another post about a guy fitting LED indicators ( in the electrical section ) The people who sold him these should have been upfront and told him that the bulb wattages in these indicators were not compatible with the standard flasher relay. Either very poor product knowledge, just didnt know or just didnt care. Frankly, that is just not good enough.

[Robert Taylor]

NGK is NGK is it not, as they where, just that through the local Honda Dealer they were more.
Think about this, I buy about 20 -30 Ohlins mx rotary steering dampers off Ohlins per annum, Scotts in the USA buy 10,000. Who gets the better buy price? Between Repco ( a big trans tasman chain ) and a small motorcycle dealer the same applies. While as I previously said there are some huge anomolies, it is rather too easy to slag motorcycle dealers without digging into the reasons, whys and wherefores. Over and out

[Robert Taylor]

Are you sure?
I know that BMW NZ get their NGK plugs from BMW AG. I'm assuming Honda would use a similar system.

Most of the time I will buy Genuine bike parts from the dealer, but I will always shop around, and if I can get the same part, in the same box, Why would I pay more? there's only so much aftersales service one can have on an oil filter, or set of spark plugs, and to a lesser degree brake pads.

Don't Ohlins make, distribute, and sell aftermarket parts? :dodge::dodge:
Yes Ohlins do make and distribute aftermarket parts ( stating the obvious as you well realise ) They also make oem for many manufacturers and supply all the MotoGP teams as oem ( except Honda ) Indy car, Aussie V8s, Le Mans cars etc etc. And you cannot be an Ohlins distributor without providing a very high level of technical backup.

[GSVR]

Goes along with my thoughts that just because something is OEM doesn't mean its going to be best. Vehicle makers try to save money just like anyone else.

Are spacesaver wheels made that way to save space in the vehicle or is it a cost cutting measure so cars can be produced cheaper?

Sometimes you just have to use the reacommended part. I know of one Kiwibiker who did his own oilchange on a new GSXR1000 while it was still under warranty and when it blew up he had no comeback and had to pay for the repairs out of his own pocket. Moral of the story here is get your oil changes done by the dealer while still under warranty.

Why don't standard GSXR shocks have a choice of springs and why can't Suzuki make them as good as Ohlins. After all this bikes meant to be at the cutting edge of performance. Or so the adds imply.

Own the racetrack (after upgradeing all the substandard bits on this bike?)

[GSVR]

You answered your own question. See here:

So what makes an Ohlins shock better than a STD GSXR one?

The Ohlins costs more to make due to lower production numbers and heaps of R&D. Or you get better after sales service.

Did I answer my own question again?


Wow OEM parts must be budget parts!

[Robert Taylor]

You answered your own question. See here:
And exactly the reason Yamaha Motor Co dont equip many of their models with Ohlins shocks standard, cost. Despite the fact they own approximately 90% of Ohlins.

Not to be confused with the Yamaha Japanese import twin shock models that have found their way to these shores with ''Ohlins shocks'' on them. These are not the real deal high quality high performance Swedish models. They are a Japanese domestic market only ''Ohlins label'' shock built by Soqi Japan and only work properly with 60kg short ( ie japanese ) riders. The parts are very different, if they have 12.5mm shafts rather than 12mm then it is Japanese. Aside from the fact they dont look like real Swedish Ohlins. It looks like Yamaha Motor effectively said to Ohlins, ''we are doing this and it is out of your hands'' Thankfully they dont interfere in the day to day running of the genuine Swedish operation.

So how is that for transparent honesty ? Thankfully the numbers that have found their way here are relatively light.

Many Japanese import cars also have ''Japohlins'' fitted.

Marketing is truly perverse and it fools a lot of people a lot of the time. Keep relentlessly telling people ''half truths'' or even brazen lies and many will blindly beleive without question.

This thread has certainly had lots of interest and a polarising effect.

[Robert Taylor]

So what makes an Ohlins shock better than a STD GSXR one?

The Ohlins costs more to make due to lower production numbers and heaps of R&D. Or you get better after sales service.

Did I answer my own question again?


Wow OEM parts must be budget parts!
Plus higher quality materials and very precise tolerancing. Every shock is individually developed for every individual model, etc

[TDC]

Why don't standard GSXR shocks have a choice of springs and why can't Suzuki make them as good as Ohlins. After all this bikes meant to be at the cutting edge of performance. Or so the adds imply.

Own the racetrack (after upgradeing all the substandard bits on this bike?)

I think there is an answer to your question that has been overlooked, its a good question.

The Jap designers have a horrible number of constraints placed on them when designing the suspension for a new model. Lets for a moment forget about the accounts favorite cry "I don't care how well it works its too expensive".

The designers of a modern bike have to engineer in an acceptable level of performance for ALL rider and passenger weight and height combinations, AND all road conditions and surfaces, AND will work with any round black thing fitted, AND will not exhibit any excessively dangerous traits with ANY of these combinations least the lawyers have a field day.

So in short the stock suspension is designed to be somewhere between average and acceptable over a staggeringly wide range of variables. It simply can't be even close to good anywhere cause it will screw up the performance at another part of the range. Having said that they do a fabulous job given what they have to work with, and don't forget the marketing dept and the accountants!!!

When you go to a suspension tuner for a shock, he will ask you all kinds of questions like, "What do you weigh", and "How Tall are you", and "Do you carry passengers", "What tyres do you run" (Yes there is a difference between the best setup for different brands of Tyres), "What type of riding do you do, etc etc

See what is going on here? The list of compromises is shrinking by a considerable margin. All of sudden you are getting a product matched to your personal requirements, rather than the general requirements of the worlds bike buying population, as well as the roads ranging from billiard table smooth to goat tracks. Then fire the accountant and throw the better quality components back in to the mix, execute at dawn the marketing dept (who will if given a chance down grade the innards of the shock to cover the cost of having the latest fashion color applied to the rear spring), and these are the reasons that the difference between stock and quality after market is so significant for riders of all skill levels.

Why don't the manufactures have a choice of spring rates etc, imaging you are 6' 5" and weigh 130Kg and go to buy your latest sports bike item of desire, and are told "we only bring in two over tall high weight range bikes per year and they are all gone!"..... Don't even think about the second hand sales nightmare!!

Spose I could have simply said the two reasons are compromise, compromise, and yet more compromises....

[imdying]

Wow OEM parts must be budget parts!Yep, they are... made to a specification, on a budget. Thing is though, there's 'pretty' aftermarket parts that are made to looser specifications, on an even tighter budget.

[TDC]

Yep, they are... made to a specification, on a budget. Thing is though, there's 'pretty' aftermarket parts that are made to looser specifications, on an even tighter budget.

Ain't that truth!

A modern Jap alloy bodied shock is past its best by as little as 15K's on some models and by 25K's almost all are past their use by date.

Then you consider that some of the shiny / sexy on the outside shit on the inside models are effectively worn out in as little as 10K's.

An Öhlins shock recommended service interval is 20K's (for street use) and at this time there is almost unmeasurable levels of performance degradation, prior to servicing.

When you consider the alarmingly short life spans of the "pretty" shocks (lets not even touch punitive profit margins), and the quality of the "so called expensive" Öhlins shocks, the whole price performance / value for money calculation does not even begin to stack up for one of the options, even though at first glance.....

[imdying]

When you consider the alarmingly short life spans of the "pretty" shocks (lets not even touch punitive profit margins), and the quality of the "so called expensive" Öhlins shocks, the whole price performance / value for money calculation does not even begin to stack up for one of the options, even though at first glance.....All of this talk makes me want to buy some Ohlins forks, this topic must cease at once :lol: :shutup:

[Robert Taylor]

Ain't that truth!

A modern Jap alloy bodied shock is past its best by as little as 15K's on some models and by 25K's almost all are past their use by date.

Then you consider that some of the shiny / sexy on the outside shit on the inside models are effectively worn out in as little as 10K's.

An Öhlins shock recommended service interval is 20K's (for street use) and at this time there is almost unmeasurable levels of performance degradation, prior to servicing.

When you consider the alarmingly short life spans of the "pretty" shocks (lets not even touch punitive profit margins), and the quality of the "so called expensive" Öhlins shocks, the whole price performance / value for money calculation does not even begin to stack up for one of the options, even though at first glance.....

Ho hum....and this started as an oil filter thread!

TDC is correct no matter how unpleasant it may sound to some. But what is unpleasant to my mind is the number of people that will say ''yeah we can service your Ohlins shock'' No formal training, no tools to do the job properly, incorrect specification oil, no experience etc. Misrepresentation, and they are playing with your personal safety.

Point of fact I have 5 proper suspension technicians spread across the country who I entrust to do this work and converse closely and transparently with them. No egos, no bull...t, just get in and do the job properly.

[F5 Dave]

And exactly the reason Yamaha Motor Co dont equip many of their models with Ohlins shocks standard, cost. Despite the fact they own approximately 90% of Ohlins.
.

Well they'd be crazy to stop people buying a new shock from their sister company.

Interesting about the 12mm vs 12.5 shaft size, I should go home & measure the shock on my YZF750SP (bought it off Steve Lloyd many moons ago). These were in later years sold with an Ohlins labelled rear shock but made in Japan apparently.

However when I got mine revalved the tech said they were a reasonably faithful copy & looked up the Ohlins application recommended shims & fitted them. However he did need to machine the piston slightly so the highspeed comp shim could move. Made a stella difference. Shock body was reputably great at 30k.

[Robert Taylor]

Well they'd be crazy to stop people buying a new shock from their sister company.

Interesting about the 12mm vs 12.5 shaft size, I should go home & measure the shock on my YZF750SP (bought it off Steve Lloyd many moons ago). These were in later years sold with an Ohlins labelled rear shock but made in Japan apparently.

However when I got mine revalved the tech said they were a reasonably faithful copy & looked up the Ohlins application recommended shims & fitted them. However he did need to machine the piston slightly so the highspeed comp shim could move. Made a stella difference. Shock body was reputably great at 30k.

I was referring to twin shocks. The likely shaft size on your single shock is likely either 12.5 or 14mm, still different to the genuine Ohlins of same vintage at 16mm. For the same stroke the Ohlins shaft would move more fluid therefore building damping faster. As I also recall the body tube is steel on the SP shock so wear characteristic would be infinitely slower than the non hard anodised alloy example on the cheaper YZF variation at the time. 20,000 or so ks and the cheaper shocks would be so badly internally worn that there would be no damping mid stroke. Exacerbated by a virgin alloy internal wearing surface ''junking'' the shock oil very very quickly.

It is true that the SP shock at that time had an oem shock much closer to Ohlins technology , but much closer still means it was miles away. No-one at top level overseas raced with the standard shock.

In the intervening years the Japanese manufacturers have found cheaper ways of making shocks while Ohlins have done what they have always done, kept making better and better performing shocks. Function not being subservient to price.

To reinforce why Yamaha do not equip their bikes standard with Ohlins....cost, cost, cost. They are competing with other bike manufacturers on price. Not for the cynical reason inferred. Showa / KYB etc also make factory level high quality / high technology / high performance shocks. But not available to the general public like Ohlins do.

And anyone who thinks the high speed compression adjusters appearing on a number of oem shocks and forks is sadly mistaken if they think they actually work like such a device is supposed to.....

[cowpoos]

So what makes an Ohlins shock better than a STD GSXR one?



simple...the ohlins is in everyway possible a better spring damper!!!
Especially if setup for your weight,bike,conditions,race/road,etc




The Ohlins costs more


do they...get a quote from a suzuki deraler for a say...umm...gsx-r 750 k6 shock...and Robert...what would the replacement Ohlins cost?

[cowpoos]

For the same stroke the Ohlins shaft would move more fluid therefore building damping faster.

why would moving more fluid build damping faster? when your all your doing is displacing fluid? be it a 12mm or 12.5...14mm 16mm shaft?? I'm not saying your wrong...far from it...I'm just curious??

[TDC]

why would moving more fluid build damping faster? when your all your doing is displacing fluid? be it a 12mm or 12.5...14mm 16mm shaft?? I'm not saying your wrong...far from it...I'm just curious??

The compression adjuster is between the main body and the gas (and oil) reservoir. So for the oil to flow past the compression adjuster oil must be forced from the main body in to the reservoir. What does this is the shock shaft entering the main body effectively making the volume of the main body smaller. There is a small amount of travel that is consumed before full damping is realised as the oil starts to flow from the main body to the reservoir past the compression adjuster as a function of shaft displacement.

So if you have a bigger diameter shaft it moves more oil faster, this in turn means that you have a smaller amount of travel before full damping force is realized. Hence a bigger shaft builds damping faster.

[sAsLEX]

To reinforce why Yamaha do not equip their bikes standard with Ohlins....cost, cost, cost.

It is interesting to note as how expendable income increases more and more bikes are coming out up-specced to include niceities such as ohlins.

S Model Ducatis. Factory Aprillia. The SP R1.

And with that you get a quality product cheaper as economies of scale mean that an SP is cheaper than the sum of its extra parts!

[imdying]

And anyone who thinks the high speed compression adjusters appearing on a number of oem shocks and forks is sadly mistaken if they think they actually work like such a device is supposed to.....Robert, the factory fitted Ohlins forks on such models as Aprilia RSVs, Ducati 999s etc, what's your opinion on those?

[cowpoos]

The compression adjuster is between the main body and the gas (and oil) reservoir. So for the oil to flow past the compression adjuster oil must be forced from the main body in to the reservoir. What does this is the shock shaft entering the main body effectively making the volume of the main body smaller. There is a small amount of travel that is consumed before full damping is realised as the oil starts to flow from the main body to the reservoir past the compression adjuster as a function of shaft displacement.

So if you have a bigger diameter shaft it moves more oil faster, this in turn means that you have a smaller amount of travel before full damping force is realized. Hence a bigger shaft builds damping faster.
yep...understand the concept...and the general workings of it...but at the end of the day...for a givin shaft size a shock will be tuned a certain way to get a certian result...within other perameters of course...but you are still displacing fluid,to get resistance...and valving of sorts to achieve this...

eg...if you have a 20ltr bucket and a 10litre bucket...both full of water...throw a brick with a theoretical volume of 500mls in each...you will displace 500mls out of each??

[Robert Taylor]

yep...understand the concept...and the general workings of it...but at the end of the day...for a givin shaft size a shock will be tuned a certain way to get a certian result...within other perameters of course...but you are still displacing fluid,to get resistance...and valving of sorts to achieve this...

eg...if you have a 20ltr bucket and a 10litre bucket...both full of water...throw a brick with a theoretical volume of 500mls in each...you will displace 500mls out of each??

Lets look at it from a different angle. You have two graduated vessels with the same amount of fluid in each. You also have two shock shafts of identical length, one though is 12mm diameter and the other is 16mm. You drop one of each into each vessel, which vessel now has the highest high tide mark?

Remember that shock absorbers have a set fluid capacity. If as TDC eluded to, if you move the fluid faster ( through the compression adjuster ) you will create more damping. For any given amount of shaft movement a bigger diameter rod will move more fluid.

To test the shaft speed theory try pushing a door faster and faster that is fitted with a closing damper.

''Displacement damping'' is exactly how 99% of production and aftermarket shock absorbers work. The problems inherent in this long standing technology include trying to successfully control the torque induced squat that modern day high horespower / torque Superbikes will impose on them. Because damping doesnt happen to an appreciable degree until the shock is moving it is in simplistic terms always playing catch up after the force placed upon it. That means that the internal damping calibration ( shim stack opening pressure, bypass bleed jet selection etc ) has to be a firmer than ideal. That ultimately is a factor that limits maximum available mechanical grip.

Taken straight from MotoGP technology the new Ohlins TTX36 has only a 14mm shaft and ( almost) doesnt rely on shaft displacement to ''build'' damping. The main shock piston is a solid slug with no shims on it and it forces fluid through an internal recirculating twin tube design, flow through the side loading compression and rebound adjusters ( which have the shim stacks ) is five terms more than a conventional shaft displacement damper. The moment that shaft moves the damping is instant. That in turn means that the damping calibration can in fact be softer meaning more mechanical grip, more sidegrip equals more corner speed, equals more exit speed etc etc.

Sam Smith debuted these shocks late in our road race season, winning all races with it against some very aggressive race sharp experienced Aussies. And ''Crash kid Seaton'' won first time out in Superbike at Manfield, breaking the long standing lap record. Until he started to slow because of the pain from his busted shoulder he had the length of the pit straight lead on his own team mate. These results with out of the box settings to be further optimised.

When Ohlins start making commercially available fork inserts using TTX technology that will be wonderful. Of course they are already being used in MotoGP.

[Robert Taylor]

Robert, the factory fitted Ohlins forks on such models as Aprilia RSVs, Ducati 999s etc, what's your opinion on those?

Yes, good. Use the same hardware as the aftermarket Ohlins. But the Italian test riders always insist on internal damping settings that ( obviously ) best suit their smooth fast Autostradas and first world Euro roads. And that of course is the main market, we are but a drop in the ocean in comparison. For our tight twisty and bumpy roads that riders prefer to ''scratch on'' we can further optimise the internal settings. To date I would personally have recalibrated about 70 pairs.

In any event, that the tolerancing is more precise and there being a lot less friction these forks can get away with firmer settings.

The product is very tunable and small fiddly internal setting parts are available that are otherwise not available with oem suspension eg shaft bleed jets, high speed poppet springs etc. For those reasons tuning of oem shocks is always limited. If we were comparing airplane to airplane we would be talking higher attainable altitudes.

This reply highlights that we provide full and proper back up, when asked for. We have a handful of dedicated suspension technicians ( and it will remain a handful ) who I can entrust to do such work and converse directly with me. People that do such work need to be very dedicated, have all the equipment ( much of it Ohlins specific ) , machining / processing skills, Ohlins specific servicing and set up techniques / precautions etc etc. NOTE, resellers of this product are not neccessarily service techs!

A post will follow later detailing my concerns about some appalling work being done around the country and ''five minute experts'' misrepresenting that they have the knowledge and skills to service Ohlins ( indeed any ) suspension units properly

[imdying]

Ahhh, I figured they would be good stuff given the price premium on their bikes... I assume the R1SP is good gear also.

When you buy an RSVR or 1098, do they spring it to suit (your weight and riding style)? Or is that still something that requires a little aftermarket fettling by someone like yourself? I'd hope for the $30k that would be something they'd offer as standard?

[Robert Taylor]

Ahhh, I figured they would be good stuff given the price premium on their bikes... I assume the R1SP is good gear also.

When you buy an RSVR or 1098, do they spring it to suit (your weight and riding style)? Or is that still something that requires a little aftermarket fettling by someone like yourself? I'd hope for the $30k that would be something they'd offer as standard?

No, it is like buying any bike off any manufacturer, no spring options supplied. The higher price for a bike reflects the higher standard of oem components ( and lower volume production for the bikes you quote ) and it is not as if dealer margins are wonderful. In fact there are many people who have opened motorcycle shops thinking they were going to ''make a killing'' Then the reality dawns that it is actually a very complex ''dog eat dog'' trade with tight margins, very tight margins on the bikes themselves. Compounding that a current environment that is levying / taxing / bleeding small business dry. If you are a franchised dealer you have to beat to the distributors drum, it is not all wine and roses. And try 70-80 hour weeks if you have the mentality to do the job thoroughly.

If you have seen ''in pit garage shots'' recently of MotoGP you might have seen the odd guy wearing an Ohlins shirt. These guys are techs assigned to the top teams, who have paid a not insubstanial sum to Ohlins for a service contract. You purchase the tools of trade and then you purchase the services of a trained specialist tech. Be it racing or a guy buying a bike from a shop. The retail margins just do not allow for such extra foc support, especially when the market at large demands lower and lower prices.

I eluded to this in a very recent Kiwi Rider article.

[TDC]

yep...understand the concept...and the general workings of it...but at the end of the day...for a givin shaft size a shock will be tuned a certain way to get a certian result...within other perameters of course...but you are still displacing fluid,to get resistance...and valving of sorts to achieve this...

eg...if you have a 20ltr bucket and a 10litre bucket...both full of water...throw a brick with a theoretical volume of 500mls in each...you will displace 500mls out of each??

I think I understand the point you are making.

Thanks to Robert's beaker analogy we understand that a larger diameter shaft displaces more fluid for a given stroke. The thing that has not been explained given you "or a givin shaft size a shock will be tuned a certain way to get a certian result" comment, is that it seems to be a rather constant amount of displacement / oil movement required to get the compression circuit working properly, regardless of most other design factors.

We keep repeating that a large shaft shock will travel less distance before building damping than a small shaft shock. Now lets consider the tuning effects you alluded to of this phenomenon. With a smaller shaft size the shock will travel further before building damping, the key thing is that the unsprung mass (unsprung mass = the weight of all of the parts swinging up and down controlled by the suspension) will have developed quite a bit of speed while waiting for the damper to apply control to the unsprung mass. By the time the shock apples its force to the unsprung mass (or has built damping) to apply the desired levels of control to it, unfortunately the unsprung mass now has built a lot of inertia and in fact is getting to be like a runaway train. This in turn means that the shock must now apply more control forces than would otherwise be necessary (if it had less dead stroke, or took less time to build damping) to the unsprung mass to bring it under control. This means that the shock is always playing catch up with the unsprung mass. So to answer your question in a round about way, yes they are tuned to suit the design, but as a rule of thumb the smaller the shaft size the more overly aggressive (read harsh) the damping has to be to bring the unsprung mass under control. This in turn compromises mechanical grip, tyre life, wet stability, dynamic ride height control (critical on more powerful bikes as Robert pointed out). Worse to compensate for the overly harsh damping most OEM's fit softer than desirable springs to try and hide the above described effects and keep your kidneys from turning to pulp.

There are some other reasons for this are not so easy to understand at first glance for increases in the amount of shock shaft travel required to build damping. We automatically assume that the fluid in the shock is not compressible, this is however not the case. All suspension fluid has some water in with the oil (lower grades of fluid tend to have a LOT more) this enables the fluid to bind with gas molecules which makes it slightly compressible further delaying the on set of compression damping for a given shaft displacement.

Worse again most OEM shocks have a bladder to separate the oil from the gas (Öhlins uses an impervious aluminum piston with elaborate sealing measures) but in a very short space of time (just a few thousand K's) the gas starts to migrate through the bladder and dissolve in to the oil, making suspension fluid more compressible and enabling the onset of cavitation at higher shaft velocities.

These are just some of the reasons why the best adjusted OEM suspension in the world simply does not have good or in many cases acceptable performance. If by some miracle of production tolerances etc it does, sleep well in the knowledge that it will only be a fleeting thing....:shutup:

[limbimtimwim]

And anyone who thinks the high speed compression adjusters appearing on a number of oem shocks and forks is sadly mistaken if they think they actually work like such a device is supposed to.....Really? I am not in disbelief, but some elaboration would be enlightening. Are the high/low speed damping adjustments that have appeared on say, the front of the R6 and the rear of the GSXR for show and not go? I've never thought to mess with the adjustments anyway.

But make them simple words, my mind is weak*.

Also, in regard to oil filters, I just recently purchased a Suzuki genuine oil filter, it was $15. How could anyone bypass a $15 filter? That's less than a tank of gas for most bikes. Crazy to think anyone would bother with any other part at that price.

* Just kidding, your pitch has been spot on so far. Keep it coming, it's very interesting

[Robert Taylor]

I think I understand the point you are making.

Thanks to Robert's beaker analogy we understand that a larger diameter shaft displaces more fluid for a given stroke. The thing that has not been explained given you "or a givin shaft size a shock will be tuned a certain way to get a certian result" comment, is that it seems to be a rather constant amount of displacement / oil movement required to get the compression circuit working properly, regardless of most other design factors.

We keep repeating that a large shaft shock will travel less distance before building damping than a small shaft shock. Now lets consider the tuning effects you alluded to of this phenomenon. With a smaller shaft size the shock will travel further before building damping, the key thing is that the unsprung mass (unsprung mass = the weight of all of the parts swinging up and down controlled by the suspension) will have developed quite a bit of speed while waiting for the damper to apply control to the unsprung mass. By the time the shock apples its force to the unsprung mass (or has built damping) to apply the desired levels of control to it, unfortunately the unsprung mass now has built a lot of inertia and in fact is getting to be like a runaway train. This in turn means that the shock must now apply more control forces than would otherwise be necessary (if it had less dead stroke, or took less time to build damping) to the unsprung mass to bring it under control. This means that the shock is always playing catch up with the unsprung mass. So to answer your question in a round about way, yes they are tuned to suit the design, but as a rule of thumb the smaller the shaft size the more overly aggressive (read harsh) the damping has to be to bring the unsprung mass under control. This in turn compromises mechanical grip, tyre life, wet stability, dynamic ride height control (critical on more powerful bikes as Robert pointed out). Worse to compensate for the overly harsh damping most OEM's fit softer than desirable springs to try and hide the above described effects and keep your kidneys from turning to pulp.

There are some other reasons for this are not so easy to understand at first glance for increases in the amount of shock shaft travel required to build damping. We automatically assume that the fluid in the shock is not compressible, this is however not the case. All suspension fluid has some water in with the oil (lower grades of fluid tend to have a LOT more) this enables the fluid to bind with gas molecules which makes it slightly compressible further delaying the on set of compression damping for a given shaft displacement.

Worse again most OEM shocks have a bladder to separate the oil from the gas (Öhlins uses an impervious aluminum piston with elaborate sealing measures) but in a very short space of time (just a few thousand K's) the gas starts to migrate through the bladder and dissolve in to the oil, making suspension fluid more compressible and enabling the onset of cavitation at higher shaft velocities.

These are just some of the reasons why the best adjusted OEM suspension in the world simply does not have good or in many cases acceptable performance. If by some miracle of production tolerances etc it does, sleep well in the knowledge that it will only be a fleeting thing....:shutup:

That is a brilliant description of the whole mass and momentum issue that we are always trying to control. Exactly why ( were money supply and rules allowing ) lightweight wheels ( etc ) can be so beneficial.
On a typical motocross track the rear suspension unit undergoes approximately 17,000 compression cycles every lap. Therefore by implication it also undergoes 17,000 rebound cycles.The point here is that suspension action ( for want of a better word ) ''reverberates'' between compression and rebound strokes constantly, and at high frequencies. Immediate damping response, excellent calibration of settings and the lowest possible friction in both unit and the whole moving system is a must.
The oem shock in the Triumph 675 ( great bike ) has ( for example ) the rebound damping curve from hell. The shim stack is so stiff that it would only begin to work as it should with a spring rate 70% or more higher than that fitted. So in order to make the rear end less harsh the rebound clicker has to be wound out as a ''band aid'' partial fix. The problem with that is it then becomes too ''loose'' on the excessive amount of free bleed it has now been given. This will be especially noticable as wallow in high speed slow radius corners with bumps and depressions.
So in a perverse sort of way perhaps it is just as well that nitogen migrates through the gas bladder and in combination with the unrefined oxygen molecules turns the oil into a milkshake....
The ( unwanted ) hysterisis in that and many other oem shocks is to use a pun ''quite shocking''. One big bag of cost cutting compromises.

[cowpoos]

That is a brilliant description .

it was...answered my question 100%

[Robert Taylor]

Really? I am not in disbelief, but some elaboration would be enlightening. Are the high/low speed damping adjustments that have appeared on say, the front of the R6 and the rear of the GSXR for show and not go? I've never thought to mess with the adjustments anyway.

But make them simple words, my mind is weak*.

Also, in regard to oil filters, I just recently purchased a Suzuki genuine oil filter, it was $15. How could anyone bypass a $15 filter? That's less than a tank of gas for most bikes. Crazy to think anyone would bother with any other part at that price.

* Just kidding, your pitch has been spot on so far. Keep it coming, it's very interesting

Thanks for the encouragement. This series of posts needs to move to a suspension header because the original post was about oil filters!
The current R6 forks are arguably the best oem forks available at present, if only because they have externally removable compression body assemblies. A suspension tuners delight as quick and easy compression shim stack changes can be effected without pulling the forks apart. If YMC see fit on later models to change it to bigger bore 25mm piston type then even better.

The high speed compression adjusters on these oem forks ( and shocks ) are little better than decoration and suit marketing / sales. ''Look, just like a MotoGP bike'' Very very wrong. As well as being skeptical about marketing hype I am also skeptical about what one reads in magazines. Very often what is reported is ( shall we say ) economical with the truth. Or their testers are not ''onto it''!!! Magazines are always mindful of attracting advertising dollars so dont wish to upset the manufacturers by telling it exactly how it is. Such issues are exacerbated in a small country where there is much less of a money go round.

Honest answers come from engineers who are totally subjective and will cut straight through the bu.....t. Last August I was present at an MX test session with Ohlins engineers in a Swedish forest. They were evaluating the standard WP suspension in the current 07 KTM250s prior to fitting in their first Ohlins test prototypes. The test riders reported that the WP suspension wasnt actually too bad....candid up front honesty. Of course they set about then developing their own shocks to work significantly better.

Anyway back to the R6. The dual high / low speed compression adjuster in the front fork consists of a low speed bypass bleed and needle. Nothing unusual in that, exactly as we see in normal single clicker compression adjusters. The high speed adjuster is simply a collar that sits over the shim stack with a linear wind coil spring preloading it. And that preload is externally adjustable. Great idea in principle.

Experience with Sam Smiths racing R6 was that it was very rare to have the low speed clickers any further in than 12 clicks, and mostly out a few clicks further. This to achieve best fork response / overall balance and side grip. In a road application you would have the settings softer.

The problem is that unless the low speed clicker is any more than 6 clicks out ( the suspension is harsh at these ''inward'' settings ) the high speed adjuster loses 90% or greater of its effectiveness. That is because further than 6 clicks out there is now so much bypass free bleed oil flowing that there is no longer enough fluid pressure to open the shim stack far enough for the effect of the spring tension to have any modulating effect. Think of it like a river about to burst its banks, if you can bleed away some of the water you will stop it from doing so.

We had been forewarned by Ohlins that this adjuster didnt work so well. But wanting to see it for ourselves we also tested it on our suspension dyno and on the road. In Sams bike we actually threw away all of the internal high speed compression adjuster components because it was no more than unwanted extra weight along for the ride.

This coming week I am fitting an Ohlins cartridge kit into a K7 GSXR1000, this kit discontinues the high speed adjuster for much the same reason. Our experience is also that very few people understand how to adjust such devices, even those that are designed for function rather than marketing.

Note that the new Ohlins TTX36 shock doesnt have an independent external high speed compression adjuster. As eluded to in previous posts the damping happens almost instantaneously, as TDC said you are not dealing with a ''runaway train''. Much better ''real time'' instant control means that the damping calibration can be appreciably softer. On the dyno they are indeed a lot softer, and that in turn largely negates the need for extra external adjusters.

Hope this explanation helps.....

And with respect to the original post about oil filters...not everyone does it including many oem part numbers, protective sealing in a plastic film. Thereby isolating from dust ingress and absorption of moisture from atmosphere....

[HDTboy]

Shit this is good reading. It's far better than a bedtime story. Thanks Robert

[et al]

Point of fact I have 5 proper suspension technicians spread across the country who I entrust to do this work and converse closely and transparently with them. No egos, no bull...t, just get in and do the job properly.

Hi Robert,
I appreciate the good stuff you are contributing on this Forum. Regarding your suspension technicians referred to - are you able to post here who/where they are, or should people approach you in the first instance?

[Robert Taylor]

Hi Robert,
I appreciate the good stuff you are contributing on this Forum. Regarding your suspension technicians referred to - are you able to post here who/where they are, or should people approach you in the first instance?

Yes, can be a ''tetchy'' subject because so many shops think that they can service suspension, but the cold hard fact is that we demand a whole load more overall committment than most are prepared to sign up to. Add to that continuity problems as so many mechanics are transient.It is for all intents and purposes a seperate specialised trade in its own right.
This is not a skill you are born with and to that end I have trouble with the term ''guru.'' It takes many years of experience, solid study and the willingness to put in the hard yards and hours learning. If it becomes all consuming ( as it has for me ) then factor in tens of thousands of dollars in overseas trips and the same in equipment, including a sophisticated shock dyno.

I will elaborate further in a future post, my issues are not too disimiliar to other distributors of many technical products who are actually prepared to provide back up. Suffice to say send me a pm and I will direct you to the most appropriate guy for your needs.

Empirical information submitted on this forum is to help people to help themselves. There is no one magical setting that works well on every road and every track, so if we can help many to understand to a higher level then all the better.

We need to touch on tyres and how the supension and tyres should work in harmony, and how they very often dont. For example we can double the rear tyre life on the TL1000 S/R models. A heavy workload precludes doing so now but will come back to that.

[saul]

Blimen heck brilliant cheers:rockon:

[Tim 39]

While we're on the subject of talking about ohlins...I have an ohlins steering damper on my RS125...how is that better than a standard HRC one? Robert?

[F5 Dave]

Interesting point containing 2 posts (ie: the Suzuki rotary damper), Tim are you talking about the Rotary steering damper that originally came from the Scott steering damper? Or the traditional slide damper?

The problem with most dampers is trying to get them without wicked freeplay. Which reminds me my Ohlins str dmpr needs bleeding or a decent service.

I suppose most early/simple dampers are just orifice devices comprising little more than the adjustment needle hole. Never thought about it much.

Speed activated sounds like a good idea, but really you may be better with a variable damping to movement angle. I guess traditional dampers do this to an extent as they have to react by opening the shims which will only happen after a certain amount of travel. Hold on that's the reverse, Duh.

I wonder if the top of the line ones are nitrogen charged to avoid cavitation?

There had been talk of suspension fluid that became more viscous as you passed current through it, imagine the possibilities of uP control, but I guess that never got anywhere or was impractical.

Sorry Robert I guess you will feel a bit like you are explaining simple things to the masses who seem unable to grasp the concepts fully enough. But have enjoyed your past articles in KR. Which is good as they are otherwise totally lacking in the sort of expertise to produce said articles.

[imdying]

There had been talk of suspension fluid that became more viscous as you passed current through it, imagine the possibilities of uP control, but I guess that never got anywhere or was impractical. Magnatrac is the working name of the shocks with similar tech fitted to HSVs. I've only read one review on it, but they reckon it was the ducks nuts.

[boomer]

Magnatrac is the working name of the shocks with similar tech fitted to HSVs. I've only read one review on it, but they reckon it was the ducks nuts.


one of the motors on top gear had it, i think it was the audi. press a button and the magnets turned on or off and .. voila.. sports style suspenders

[imdying]

I think the HSV has a wee computer that adjusts them 1000 times a second :o Pretty sure that the Audi would be similar though.

[Tim 39]

it's the slide type, basicly I'm wondering if its worth swapping over to my new bike or not. (the shaft is a bit long I reckon)

[F5 Dave]

yeah read about the idea in the early 90s but heard little more about it.

Having a simple harder/stiffer may be of little use as the valving would have to exponentially change with the increase in viscosity, unless the change was pretty subtle it would leave the high speed damping too stiff on 'sport setting' and low speed too soft on 'comfort'. Heck my stepmahs Laser car had dash push button (orifice) adjustment in early 90s

Actually depending on use maybe around town it wouldn't matter too much if the compression damping was bugger all in your people mover. On a bike it would be a drag as lack of low speed compression damping makes the bike fairly unsettled esp in side to side transitions.

[slowpoke]

one of the motors on top gear had it, i think it was the audi. press a button and the magnets turned on or off and .. voila.. sports style suspenders

Who needs magnets, I'm getting stiff just thinking about it........

[Robert Taylor]

First off, as already mentioned, thank you for your contribution so far to KB, I read with much interest what you have to say, which is well thought out, and written so I can understand it... even Boomer understands!.
Wish I knew about you when I had my TLR... FFS what were Suzuki thinking with that rotary damper??! I never understood the concept, and still dont.. well kinda, but 3000 kms from a Rennsport (the shizz tyres at the time)?? That was very costly.



Too right mate, you got a set of K7 front forks to sort out comin your ways tomorrow... or the next day, stupid couriers!!

The basic concept of the rotary damper is very sound, just ask Michael Schumacher, Kimi Raikonnen or Felipe Massa.

The Japanese of course ''invented it'' and found a way of destroying potential benefits by passing it through the PCD or ''product cheapening department'' Excess internal friction ( in fact heaps of friction ) that creates heat and overstresses the already very limited fluid capacity. Small diameter low resonse shims and the internal calibration from hell. Because in practice the damper is so non compliant the tyre has to cope with absorption duties rather more than it should.

Tyres and suspension should work in harmony. The suspension units are there to absorb bumps and to maintain chassis stability and ride height control, among other duties. Simplistically;

1) If the suspension is too firm and has heaps of stiction and then friction ( i.e TL1000S / R and VTR1000 as some of the worst examples of many diabolical oem shocks ) then the sidewall compliance of the tyre is overworked because it is compensating for the lazy shock. That means a lot more scrubbing action is occuring on the contact patch surface. Result, accelerated tyre wear. Playing with the clickers isnt going to help, the problem is too fundamental.

2) If the suspension is too soft and / or the springing is too soft for the overall loading the overall end result of rapid tyre wear again occurs. Just sitting on the bike uses up a good part of the suspension travel alone, so there is less available for absorption and chassis stability duties. On a single shock rear end with a linkage system soft springing / settings can actually feel firm. That is because you arrive at the rising rate part of the curve a good deal earlier.

ETC ETC....That so many people are prepared to put up with such poor suspension and instead spend their money on noisy pipes amazes me. Cynically....''look at me, the noise I am making is drawing attention to my ill handling bike'' Okay, thats a bit rough but examples like that do exist on a daily basis.

This is a motorcycle forum but lets think about the drift car culture that has permeated onto the streets. Drift cars are very ''tied down'' Stiff spring rates, lowered ride height and radically reduced travel ( very often actually on the bump stops ) and any external compression and rebound clickers wound nearly if not all the way in. Stiff anti-rollbar settings, if fitted. Very low profile rims with little sidewall compliance in the tyres. All to initiate breaking traction easily to drift. SHOULD DAMN WELL BE FOR CIRCUIT USE ONLY. So you see these things bouncing around the streets and all I can think is ''you brainless plonkler''...and dont you come anywhere near my teenage daughters! Given our bumpy and often greasy low grip roads that can be a cocktail for disaster, especially as many of the twits that drive these attention grabbers havent yet worked out that the throttle can be moved in two directions. Something that LTNZ should clean up but its probably in the too hard pile, that or any Government wouldnt touch it for fear of losing votes.

The point is poor suspension compliance and over-firm ( and as we have said too soft suspension ) compromises tyre life and also mechanical grip.

A few years back Brian Bernard was regularly racing a TL1000R during the winter series races that regularly visited the old Taupo circuit. We fitted an out of the box Ohlins shock to that bike and he shaved 2 seconds per lap instantly off his lap times around that short little circuit. I can remember it well because another competitor who thought he had that years series in the bag unsuccessfully protested.

The improvement in lap times was because the suspension actually responsively moved to track surface changes as it should and kept the tyre firmly interlocked with the grain of the pavement.....more mechanical grip.

With the stock ''gap filler'' he had been ( sounds corny ) ''dry aquaplaning''.

[imdying]

1) If the suspension is too firm and has heaps of stiction and then friction ( i.e TL1000S / R and VTR1000 as some of the worst examples of many diabolical oem shocks ) then the sidewall compliance of the tyre is overworked because it is compensating for the lazy shock. That means a lot more scrubbing action is occuring on the contact patch surface. Result, accelerated tyre wear. Playing with the clickers isnt going to help, the problem is too fundamental.Is that why a friends GSXR1000 went from a tyre shredding machine to barely even scuffing it after fitting an Ohlins shock (both round the track)? I was astounded at the difference I don't mind saying... you'd get your moneys worth out of the shock in rear tyres alone I'd guess :shit:

[Robert Taylor]

While we're on the subject of talking about ohlins...I have an ohlins steering damper on my RS125...how is that better than a standard HRC one? Robert?

I am not so familiar with the HRC one but am guessing that it is a single tube type with a deliberate air bubble ( which homogenises ) to allow for heat expansion.

The Ohlins damper has a seperate chamber to compensate for oil expansion and it also gives it a slight pressurisation effect. So straight off it doesnt cavitate.

A top mount transverse type has a small bleed bore and needle because it must provide a lot of damping within a very short stroke and technically is ridiculous. But that is fashion.

Sidemount dampers for the same amount of handlebar arc have a longer stroke, which is easier to modulate accurately. The bleed bore is larger with a less aggressively tapered needle, often with a cross bore processed into it.

There are 20 clicks or more of adjustment range but it is rare to require the setting further inward than 8 clicks out

[slowpoke]

Thanks Robert.
It must feel like you are talking to a bunch of cabbages sometimes but rest assured this stuff is gold to most of us.....even if some of it does get lost in the translation. You know better than anyone how much crap is spruiked by salesman so it's a rare and much appreciated opportunity for us to pick your brain for unbiased information. I'm off to scrub the top mount transverse type steering damper off my list of trademe/ebay searches, thanks mate.

Now, about those teenage daughters.....

[Robert Taylor]

Interesting point containing 2 posts (ie: the Suzuki rotary damper), Tim are you talking about the Rotary steering damper that originally came from the Scott steering damper? Or the traditional slide damper?

The problem with most dampers is trying to get them without wicked freeplay. Which reminds me my Ohlins str dmpr needs bleeding or a decent service.

I suppose most early/simple dampers are just orifice devices comprising little more than the adjustment needle hole. Never thought about it much.

Speed activated sounds like a good idea, but really you may be better with a variable damping to movement angle. I guess traditional dampers do this to an extent as they have to react by opening the shims which will only happen after a certain amount of travel. Hold on that's the reverse, Duh.

I wonder if the top of the line ones are nitrogen charged to avoid cavitation?

There had been talk of suspension fluid that became more viscous as you passed current through it, imagine the possibilities of uP control, but I guess that never got anywhere or was impractical.

Sorry Robert I guess you will feel a bit like you are explaining simple things to the masses who seem unable to grasp the concepts fully enough. But have enjoyed your past articles in KR. Which is good as they are otherwise totally lacking in the sort of expertise to produce said articles.

The Scotts steering damper is actually made by Ohlins, Scotts just make the fitting kits and market the package rather well. Ohlins make approximately 10,000 per annum for Scotts and to that end instal a Scotts etching on the top faceplate. Many have tried to copy and there is something about anodising colours that look like a cheap tart that attracts some customers. But they havent emulated the quality, performance, full responsive adjustments and longevity. Indeed the presence and unreliability of the cheap nasty ones has created more of a market for the Ohlins / Scotts dampers as people have come to realise they would have actually saved money by purchasing the ''real deal'' in the first place! Sorry if that sounds one eyed, but this is exactly what has happened.

A steering damper doesnt work on displacement like a conventional shock absorber, it just moves fluid from one side of a chamber to the other through a restricting adjustable needle into a bore. The principle is simply progressive, the harder the deflecting influence the harder the damping, which it needs to be, within sensible well tested design limits. The rotary dampers ( Ohlins / Scotts ) introduce external low speed and high speed compression adjustment, but frankly that is good for Enduro / MX and less so for road / road race. There is also a weight penalty.

Because there is no displacement of oil as in a shock absorber there are relatively no ''pressure balance'' issues that are often crudely dealt to by raising the gas pressure. The trouble with raising gas pressure is you can significantly raise friction because the lips of the seals are pressed harder and harder onto the shaft. That can be significant.

In truth in a steering damper any pressurisation only needs to be very very slight and nitrogen gas pressurisation is overkill. Ohlins have very successfully done it with an expansion reservoir and checkvalve poppet for many years. And it is the predominant damper in road racing throughout the world. For the most extreme hot conditions ( very rare here, perhaps Paeroa street races ) there is a further elegant solution they have of a simple floating piston preloaded by a very light spring, i.e just a very light ''whiff'' of preload to compensate for heat induced expansion, and to prevent cavitation without inducing seal drag.

Beware of touchy feely marketing lines like for example ''speed activated'' etc. Usually employed by companies who are in fact doing nothing new or clever and are trying to gain marketing traction.

Your Ohlins damper does indeed need servicing as it has probably gone through a few million cycles by now. If it was a cheap one it would often be throwaway. We have the proper service kit to do the job, the only one in the country.

[Robert Taylor]

yeah read about the idea in the early 90s but heard little more about it.

Having a simple harder/stiffer may be of little use as the valving would have to exponentially change with the increase in viscosity, unless the change was pretty subtle it would leave the high speed damping too stiff on 'sport setting' and low speed too soft on 'comfort'. Heck my stepmahs Laser car had dash push button (orifice) adjustment in early 90s

Actually depending on use maybe around town it wouldn't matter too much if the compression damping was bugger all in your people mover. On a bike it would be a drag as lack of low speed compression damping makes the bike fairly unsettled esp in side to side transitions.

Yes, you are onto it. Motorcycle application throws in a load of complex issues and really this stuff is not yet developed well enough. The fluids that ''polarise'' are also incredibly expensive.

[Pumba]

Man this stuff is gold, keep it comming Robert this great reading.

Now where did I put my cheque book.:whistle:

[Robert Taylor]

Thanks Robert.
It must feel like you are talking to a bunch of cabbages sometimes but rest assured this stuff is gold to most of us.....even if some of it does get lost in the translation. You know better than anyone how much crap is spruiked by salesman so it's a rare and much appreciated opportunity for us to pick your brain for unbiased information. I'm off to scrub the top mount transverse type steering damper off my list of trademe/ebay searches, thanks mate.

Now, about those teenage daughters.....

No not at all, this in part makes me semi accessible as I am so busy at race tracks it is almost to the point of rudeness. Just dont expect my response to any questions to always be as quick as I have achieved recently.

My daughters are going to grow up to be tories, just like me. Any candidates for their attention must be first able to handsomely pass a written multi question test. Following that a viewing of my small arms locker.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Hi there Robert

Thanks for the professional insight you give to suspension tuning. There is some really, really cool information there.

And you show you know your product inside out, which is better than any marketing scheme i've ever seen.

Now, i race a RS125 and im getting to a point where im wondering if suspension would start to make a difference.

To give a perspective of my riding level, im 3.3 seconds off the lap racord.

Now i have just replaced the three year old tyres with some new ones, and thought now the time to think about suspension.

Currently, i have dont Zero setup (not even setting sag) and i am on standard settings on everything.

How much of a difference to lap times would setup make? Am i talking points of a seconds. Or seconds as a whole?

Cheers,

-Glen

[F5 Dave]

Interesting, thanks for the response, must fire the damper up when i get the 500 near back on the road (project), but then I'll also be looking at the rear Ohlins starting with the spring which using my scales & a press appears at only 5.5kg, seems way too low, initial (gentle) test ride didn't seem too bad but I'd suspect 6.5 would be better for a 150kg bike with a overall ~2.2 ratio, but we'll see in a few months.

Talking of enduro bikes & dampers I'd love to try a damper on my GasGas, people rave about them but it is hard to see the benefits until you've tried one. Funny I had seen the Scotts advertised as such & then they later appeared with Ohlins on them & I assumed they'd bought the company.

Glen I hope at least the bike still doesn't have Si's total FB spring on it, he'd have to be 30kg heavier than you. Plenty of decent articles on the web for a starting point for setup, although Kevin Cameron's Sportbike Performance Handbook is a great starting point. (Eric Gorr does a great dirt one too).

[SPman]

Is this one of the best threads on KB at the moment, or what!

With regard to the "Ohlins" twin shocks on XJR s, are they re-buildable, or is it better to junk them and fit genuine Ohlins or Hagon rear shocks and/or springs better suited to weight?

[jimbo]

Hi robert,I have been following this thread since the first post.Excellent.Ive learnt more about suspension in the last couple of weeks than in the previous 3 decades. many thanks.:rockon:Please continue:yes:

[TDC]

Is this one of the best threads on KB at the moment, or what!

With regard to the "Ohlins" twin shocks on XJR s, are they re-buildable, or is it better to junk them and fit genuine Ohlins or Hagon rear shocks and/or springs better suited to weight?

Ohhh Nooo don't fit Hagon (or mention) rear shocks or Robert will stop talking to you :nono:

:yes:

[Sollyboy]

Robert, I was looking at an earlier aprillia 1000 with oem ohlins forks fitted , but on closer inspection found the general build quality of the forks to be very poor , like poor machineing and casting etc , are there a few grades of ohlins product round cause just looking at them they looked terrible, would they still perform ok if their a second grade product?

[Robert Taylor]

Hi there Robert

Thanks for the professional insight you give to suspension tuning. There is some really, really cool information there.

And you show you know your product inside out, which is better than any marketing scheme i've ever seen.

Now, i race a RS125 and im getting to a point where im wondering if suspension would start to make a difference.

To give a perspective of my riding level, im 3.3 seconds off the lap racord.

Now i have just replaced the three year old tyres with some new ones, and thought now the time to think about suspension.

Currently, i have dont Zero setup (not even setting sag) and i am on standard settings on everything.

How much of a difference to lap times would setup make? Am i talking points of a seconds. Or seconds as a whole?

Cheers,

-Glen

In truth the biggest immediate improvements are going to come from those newer tyres and your own personal riding development. As will ensuring you stay lean and mean and sharp. Ie no mind altering substances etc.

Optimising what you have will give more mechanical grip and an improvement in your speed. But it is as much about a term that the Japanese go on about all the time, ''rider feel''. If you are getting good feedback from your supension and feel ''connected'' to the track then that raises your confidence level to push harder. There is no magical setting that suits every track without adjustment, and for the very top riders we have different internal valving settings for differing tracks. Riders are different also, some give excellent feedback ( Sam Smith, Craig Shirriffs ) some just as excellent but you have to put up with their fiery attitude issues ( Shaun Harris ) Get well Shaun so I can remind you that your politics suck (!)

There is another aspect of suspension tuning that is most specific to the 125's. That is, a dynamic ride height that optimises fairing attitude through the air and maximises top speed. Or to put it another way if the fairing is not correctly positioned for the air to pass over it with as little possible drag then you will scrub off speed. As 125s dont have excess horsepower you look for everything possible to optimise speed. Perhaps this pre-occupation is more relevant to fast flowing Euro tracks but it still bears thinking about. And for the committed actually testing it on tracks such as Pukekohe. Looking at peak revs will be some form of indication.

At least from the Ohlins perspective the preload on the rear shock spring should be set so that the rear end is just topped out ( no static sag ) And to the best of my memory rider sag fully kitted sitting in race position around 15mm. But on our bumpy low grip level tracks that might well produce bad bump absorption characteristics and limit the ultimate amount of mechanical grip available. If you cannot achieve an approximate correlation of zero sag and approximately 15 rider your spring rate is incorrect for your personal stats. The front dynamic ride height will also influence fairing attitude.

As much as for reasons like the above it is impossible to pre-calculate how much improvement there will be in lap times, there are too many variables. And the best shock absorber available isnt going to gift you more speed if it is not sprung and set up properly.

There are other forms of racing where the suspension set up becomes subservient to other factors. Formula Ford race cars are low horsepower and very often you tune the supension to take away grip as too much speed is actually scubbed off by having too much...Our own Toyota racing series cars are a proper aero function car, at high speed the rear wing produces approximately 2 tons of downforce. The suspension setup is basically subservient to maintaining correct overall chassis attitude for best aero function ie minimum straight line drag in harmony with maximum downforce.

Its a long story but we ''inherited'' the dampers on these cars, built by a company in Italy who used 30% Ohlins parts content in them and the other 70% a hodgepodge of badly engineered cheap and nasty parts. Suffice to say when these landed on my doorstep I hit the roof and complained to Ohlins, the result being the Italian Ohlins distributor got canned. The second result being we re-engineered them to attain a better level of performance and the expected reliability. That being achieved we changed the internal setting of these for the last season, it is a control class so all dampers have to be exactly the same. I got criticised by some armchair critics because the cars didnt look like they were riding the bumps as well as they had the previous season. That was perfectly true but also true was that the cars were faster because of better aero function....

Anyway, 125 road race shocks. The ultimate limiting factor is the valving in the stock shock is none too clever and nor is the response range of the clickers. The end result is a little akin to ''fixed orifice damping'' It works, but only to a certain level. Ohlins dont assemble for resale road race 125 dampers. The odd TZ125 Ohlins damper you have seen we built off the spec card from production parts ex Ohlins. In the case of the RS125 the cylinder head of the shock ( the main casting that all else assembles to ) is only available as a part from the Ohlins racing department. Because it is very low volume it is high cost and that elevates the price of the shock unit to $1750, were I to make a decent margin it would ( should ) be more. Having said that I have 3 under construction at present. A well set up one of these will ultimately help you lap faster, there are those who will say dont bother. That is probably true at this stage because there are other more immediate areas that will give you a better bang for buck. But the detractors would also benefit were they to fit the product, so be wary of sweeping statements economical in considering fairly the full perspective .

[Robert Taylor]

Is this one of the best threads on KB at the moment, or what!

With regard to the "Ohlins" twin shocks on XJR s, are they re-buildable, or is it better to junk them and fit genuine Ohlins or Hagon rear shocks and/or springs better suited to weight?

They technically are, but not economically. Normally the chrome on the shafts pit easily and this is not always visible immediately. If so they are throwaway. The shafts are Japanese with a low grade chroming process, longevity is not expected because the bikes are basically legislated off the road after only a few years. Inbuilt obsolescence.

And we are taking them here...

The genuine Swedish product has good quality highly refined steel and proper pre-chroming and chroming processes. I have pulled apart Ohlins twin shock MX shocks nearly 30 years old and often re-installed the same shafts.

The proper Swedish listing is a very different animal to the ''Japanese domestic market consumption only'' model. The parts are entirely different with respect to quality and dimensions, and the ''sum of all those parts'' performs as it should with a proper damping curve. Appropriate springing is always fitted for the individual rider and loading.

With reference to another post answering your question I would indeed talk to you if you bought cheap shocks, but youd probably be seeking conversation with your chiropractor first and foremost.....Remember you only get what you pay for.

[FROSTY]

Just a point here for all those using Roberts services.
Being able to give him informed feedback will mean you'll get best bang for buck from his trackside services.
Having notes clearly showing what suspension settings you are using really are like gold.

[limbimtimwim]

I've read conflicting things about this. Is altering the viscosity of the fluids in suspension components a valid way of changing their behavior for the better?

I can understand if I filled my suspension with treacle it would be terrible, and likewise I guess if I filled it with something very thin the suspension wouldn't do much except bounce around.

But are smaller changes something that can be done to alter characteristics for the better?

[Robert Taylor]

Robert, I was looking at an earlier aprillia 1000 with oem ohlins forks fitted , but on closer inspection found the general build quality of the forks to be very poor , like poor machineing and casting etc , are there a few grades of ohlins product round cause just looking at them they looked terrible, would they still perform ok if their a second grade product?

The forks you mention are as individually anonymous to me as your own personal identity.

The only second tier ''Ohlins name only'' products ''available'' are the ones fitted to some Yamaha models that were built for Japanese domestic market consumption only and never intended for export out of Japan. The majority shareholder in Ohlins flexing its muscle, and NZ ( as a country of often ''challenged'' thinking ) is taking cast offs.

Not all Aprilia models have Ohlins forks. Right at this moment I have both a set of Aprilia Ohlins forks to service and a set of Showa forks from a cheaper Aprilia variant. The work instructions for the Showas is to rework them internally to take away harshness and get them to ride the bumps better, to match the rear Ohlins shock that has been fitted. I looked at both of these sets of forks this afternoon side by side and would have to say that the ''external'' quality looked great on both of them.

You say ''an earlier Aprilia 1000 model'' but no elaboration of overall condition. The Ohlins product on those Aprilias is fairly chunky in construction but very poor? First and only time Ive ever been told that, maybe as an engineer ( started my carreer with aircraft ) my perception of quality is different to yours....

Point of fact the overall quality is very very high and so is the ultimate longevity. Much more so than a Japanese fork the overlap where the lower tube threads into the lower castings is substanially longer and stronger than in a Japanese sportbike fork. There are 2 current popular litre class Japanese sportbikes that will develop movement between the lower tube and bottom casting over time, especially if the rider likes pulling wheelies and is a late braker. When that happens it is a costly job. The Ohlins forks never develop that problem but if you bend a tube you can replace just that tube only as it is designed to be seperated from the casting. And guess what, cheaper than a Japanese fork to rebuild...

Ohlins road and track forks also flex less under heavy braking and therefore ( the great disadvantage of inverted forks ) will not bind as readily. In inverted forks there is a bushing just above the oil seal and a second bushing further up roughly located halfway between the upper and lower triple clamps. The upper fork tubes can actually deflect a horrible amount under heavy braking meaning the bushings are no longer on the same centreline. The Japanese ''engineering by accountancy'' semi fix is just to increase clearances.

For all their limitations ''right side up forks'' remain a lot more compliant under conditions that induce fork flex, simply because the primary bending moment is happening above the bushings...

Cynically, I would suggest the ''lighter and lighter'' trend with modern Japanese sportbike forks also has a little to do with material costs. Many of these latest sportbike forks are very nicely ''turned out'' on the outside but
underneath the outerwear can hide a whole load of horrible compromises. As one overseas road race suspension tuner I know will reluctantly testify, ''she wasnt a girl''.

The new coatings do indeed work, but only when mated with either genuine seals or the very highest quality aftermarket seals who supply to oem. The coating itself is only virtually a wafer thin ''veneer mist'' Looks like MotoGP but thats where it stops.

So we go inside the forks, theres one brand of litre class bike that for years has had a cartridge with a top bushing that is not on the same centreline as the out of round cartridge tube. To exacerbate that ( and this is common to all the oem stuff ) when the cartridge is bolted in it almost always cocks a little to one side because the lower casting surface it abuts against is not perpendicular to the fork tube! AND... one of the current crop of 600 sportbikes has the cheapest nastiest front fork cartridges that you have ever seen. As a term of relativity last years cartridges look as if they would have come out of the Ferrari factory ( although that rather flatters them ) This years look like a lowest level budget replacement that would be made in China for resale by SuperCheap auto.

As an aftermarket company with a reputation for quality, engineering and performance excellence Ohlins pay very close attention to precise tolerancing and assembly truth. And the product is very tunable with an enormous setting bank of information readily accessible from the factory and other distributors. Point of fact we have our own database of knowledge and experience to further optimise the product performance for our often nasty road and track conditions.

Last year Yamaha Motor Australias road race team raced with YZFR1SP's, equipped standard with Ohlins suspension at both ends. A very high baseline to start from. They wiped the floor and that has continued into 07 season. The SP model is not available for 07 and they have only just started racing with the 07 model, Ohlins cartridges installed inside the oem forks.

The most ultimate quality and performance levels cost. The current Ohlins customer level Superbike forks cost around NZ$17,000 and they are still some way from what Valentino and Casey have access to. Valid only for F3 class in NZ but am happy to accept orders.....

As a side subject, with the posts that I have thus far submitted I have genuinely got a kick out of submitting material that people have valued and I thank the many who have made kind comments. As I have made and put my name to up front remarks about the abysmal quality, mediocre performance and poor backup of many cheap products I fully expect some retort by ''ghost writers'' My answer to that is I have no respect for those who make a living out of products that effectively misrepresent standards of performance and quality. And I especially have antipathy for those who provide no backup and those who are doing a lousy job through use of substandard parts, lack of appropriate tools, training and experience etc.

Is anyone having problems with adjustment range with the oem Ohlins steering damper fitted standard to the most current model ZX10? If so we are currently testing a cost effective cure that we think will improve its performance substanially.

[Robert Taylor]

I've read conflicting things about this. Is altering the viscosity of the fluids in suspension components a valid way of changing their behavior for the better?

I can understand if I filled my suspension with treacle it would be terrible, and likewise I guess if I filled it with something very thin the suspension wouldn't do much except bounce around.

But are smaller changes something that can be done to alter characteristics for the better?

Very quickly and simplistically, altering viscosity primarily affects by pass bleed ( clicker positions ) by about 95% and will affect flow through deflected shim stacks by only about 5%. If you have made a substanial change in viscosity you may have to move the clicker setting by an enormous and ''inappropriate amount'' Excepting on a limited number of top shelf suspension components the tapers on adjustment clicker needles only have a single taper and therefore dont have a linear response range. There is a sweet spot of response range. If you are only a few clicks out from ''fully in'' one click can be a huge change ( excepting if the shim stack opening pressure is very weak ) Conversely, if you are nearly all the way out, one click will do almost nothing as the needle is already so far withdrawn.

So tuning by viscosity is in most ways a myth, especially with modern high spec high performance suspension units.

And not all oils are the same, sae ratings are not ''gospel'' by any means. But please ask me about that another time or read an upcoming issue of Kiwi Rider. I need sleep!

[Robert Taylor]

Very quickly and simplistically, altering viscosity primarily affects by pass bleed ( clicker positions ) by about 95% and will affect flow through deflected shim stacks by only about 5%. If you have made a substanial change in viscosity you may have to move the clicker setting by an enormous and ''inappropriate amount'' Excepting on a limited number of top shelf suspension components the tapers on adjustment clicker needles only have a single taper and therefore dont have a linear response range. There is a sweet spot of response range. If you are only a few clicks out from ''fully in'' one click can be a huge change ( excepting if the shim stack opening pressure is very weak ) Conversely, if you are nearly all the way out, one click will do almost nothing as the needle is already so far withdrawn.

So tuning by viscosity is in most ways a myth, especially with modern high spec high performance suspension units.

And not all oils are the same, sae ratings are not ''gospel'' by any means. But please ask me about that another time or read an upcoming issue of Kiwi Rider. I need sleep!

Further to that, in fairness you will notably see a difference in rebound speed if altering the viscosity of fluid in damper rod forks as primary rebound control is ''fixed orifice'' only...through a hole drilled in the rod. As such bikes require such heavy viscosity oils for control they are VERY affected by the atmospheric conditions of the day. On a cold frosty morning the forks will be very ''lethargic''

[sAsLEX]

.. one of the current crop of 600 sportbikes has the cheapest nastiest front fork cartridges that you have ever seen. As a term of relativity last years cartridges look as if they would have come out of the Ferrari factory ( although that rather flatters them ) This years look like a lowest level budget replacement that would be made in China for resale by SuperCheap auto.

I realise you might not want to name and shame for commercial reasons but is there a reliable source one could be pointed to to ascertain what is beneath the skin of modern sprot bikes? I mean the most people really get before purchasing is a shortish test ride and a few articles in magazines or off the net. Not many of which point to the tunability/rebuildability of the internal cartridges....

[Pussy]

Just a point here for all those using Roberts services.
Being able to give him informed feedback will mean you'll get best bang for buck from his trackside services.
Having notes clearly showing what suspension settings you are using really are like gold.

Go on!! You mean that I shouldn't just hand RT a shock and say "fix this"

[FROSTY]

Go on!! You mean that I shouldn't just hand RT a shock and say "fix this"
Dude have a look around the pits at the next vic club round. See how many riders havent a clue of the fuel load needed,Suspension settings, or even in some cases the gearing.

[slowpoke]

Much more so than a Japanese fork the overlap where the lower tube threads into the lower castings is substanially longer and stronger than in a Japanese sportbike fork. There are 2 current popular litre class Japanese sportbikes that will develop movement between the lower tube and bottom casting over time, especially if the rider likes pulling wheelies and is a late braker.

Hmmm, as the owner of an "old" modern sportsbike ('00 R1) I'm wondering if this means it is actually possible (within monetary reason) to replace the lower casting of my forks with a radial caliper design.
Would it be as simple as finding a virtually worthless pair of trashed later model R1 forks and swapping the cast sections?

[roogazza]

Great reading from you Robert and TDC . A far cry from the seventies Prod/bikes that we stuffed engine oil and packers into the forks and put the preload on the rear to full and just hoped our TT100's would grip ? I'm now in the 21st century........Gaz.

[TDC]

So tuning by viscosity is in most ways a myth, especially with modern high spec high performance suspension units.

And not all oils are the same, sae ratings are not ''gospel'' by any means. But please ask me about that another time or read an upcoming issue of Kiwi Rider. I need sleep!

At the risk of sticking my nose in... the whole oil things I feel needs some considerable expansion.

Firstly that stuff many of us buy based on the price tag rather than the specification or quality, or worse have fallen victim to a completely dubious marketing campaign based on catch phrases rather than fact....

The considerable technology and ongoing R&D invested in oil products would astound all of us if we could comprehend the extents of the technology, budget, and qualifications and experience of the numerous white coated technicians manipulating molecules to make ever better oils.

Anyhow, as Robert alluded to the S.A.E. numbers don't really mean much when used in suspension. All quality suspension fluids have their viscosity expressed in centistrokes at a temperature reflective of its mean operating temperature. Why is this important? We first have to understand the S.A.E. viscosity numbering systems intention. When we think about oil destined for a engine application we assume that the the viscosity rating is a measure of the "flowability" of an oil. More specifically, it is the property of an oil to develop and maintain a certain amount of shearing stress dependent on flow, and then to offer continued resistance to flow. This is important because of the way a plain bearing works. It is not the oil pressure generated by the oil pump that keeps the crank separated from the crank bearings. Rather, it is a local area of higher pressure generated by the shearing action of the parts moving relative to each other. This "hydro-dynamic bearing" layer is what resists the forces of pistons and so on. As a result the S.A.E. developed a number of approved methods for measuring the shear strength of oil, and oil weights are representative primarily of their shear strength not their flowability. The centistrokes measure is however primarily concerned with the flowability of the fluid, which in the case of suspension components is of far greater importance. To a lesser extent we don't care what the shear strength of the oil film is but rather how it is going to perform when being passed through an orifice. While the shear strength and flowability are related they are not as closely related as you might instinctively think. This is why three brands of the same weight oil will perform quite differently in a suspension application as their centistrokes measurements will vary considerably.

Then we need to be concerned with the viscosity index. This is a rating of how well the fluid holds its viscosity when exposed to temperature, the bigger the number the better (pretty much). Many multi grade engine oils claim to be able to maintain their viscosity over a wide temperature range. They do this by additives to the base oil (usually some form of polymer) that has a positive viscosity temperature coefficient, so as the base oil thins as a result of heat the polymer thickens, hence keeping the observable viscosity static over a wide range of temperatures. Usually the better the oil the longer this effect will last for. However one particular oil that is popular in motorcycle applications looses its viscosity index so alarmingly quickly I wouldn't put it in a lawn mower, and worse it has a 0% zinc content!! For a suspension component this is ultimately the ability to have consistent damping over a wide range of operating temperatures, again cheap or poorly specified suspension fluids either degrade quickly in service or simply don't manage to remain stable over the working temperature range of the suspension and deliver unpredictable results at best.

We also need to be concerned with PH in suspension components, most modem suspension components have a number of different materials present in them. If the Ph is too far from the neutral range, galvanic corrosion can destroy things up internally at a rate that deifies belief! Many people incorrectly diagnose erosion on the damper pistons as cavitation scaring when in fact it is exactly the same thing that destroys the props on boats in salt water. The Ph of the oil is really affected by the water it picks up because the water will react with gasses to form acids. This means that suspension fluids need to handled with the same care as brake fluid! Many lower grade suspension fluids have a significant water content sitting in the sealed bottle on the shelf.

Oil is not the simple stuff you can easily mistake it for. In times gone past when the front forks of basically everything had damper rod forks pretty much any semi reasonable oil of the right grade was just fine, it was under very low levels of stress. When dealing with modern high performance cartridge forks the oil is under enormous stress, there are disturbingly few oils that will give acceptable performance across the temperature ranges experienced in New Zealand, and if you want them to offer consistent performance past a few hunderd K's the choice gets very small indeed.... Then spare a though for the extraordinarily highly stressed oil in your rear shock working under pressures often in excess of 12 Bar and temperatures easily exceeding 80 degrees C, A poor choice of oil here can have dire consequences.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Holy shit, would anyone mind if I printed this thread off, bound it up and sold it on trademe? (HDC's big book of wisdom sounds like a catchy title....)

There is some amazing techy insight going on here. Thank you to the people with the knowledge and the ability to express it in terms a munter like me can understand.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Dude have a look around the pits at the next vic club round. See how many riders havent a clue of the fuel load needed,Suspension settings, or even in some cases the gearing.


Oooh thats me!


Next time you see me, come up and introduce yourself! :)

[TDC]

Hmmm, as the owner of an "old" modern sportsbike ('00 R1) I'm wondering if this means it is actually possible (within monetary reason) to replace the lower casting of my forks with a radial caliper design.
Would it be as simple as finding a virtually worthless pair of trashed later model R1 forks and swapping the cast sections?

Technically very probable in theory, however there are some likely sources of problems.

Firstly because you can not "shim" the distance from the caliper to the rotor with a radial caliper you may have problems with the offset of the disk rotors mandating the purchase of different rotors, trust me when I tell you that trying to source a rotor with the right diameter, the right offset, and the right number of mounting holes of the right diameter and the right pitch circle diameter is often very difficult! All the suppliers want to discuss is for "what model bike are you looking for a rotor for"! The other way that this problem can be addressed is by manufacturing triple clamps to suit the new requirement. You will almost certainly need the matching front axle (from the fork lowers) that may not match the bearings (an easy fix usually) and the width of the forks may not suit the new combination which would require the fabrication of a new axle and spacers. Unfortunately this kind of a job can get really silly due simply to the number of custom pieces that need to be manufactured and can quickly end up costing more than a set of after market forks that bold right on. Having said that some are very simple to do because they accidentally line up out of the box. I can't comment on the R1 its not a job I have done before.

While radial mount calipers look cool they don't offer a quantum leap in brake performance. You might end up with a better thing by upgrading the internals of the forks rather than the outside?

Oh and as its your life you are effectively playing with you will need to have this work done by somebody experienced and competent.

[Robert Taylor]

I realise you might not want to name and shame for commercial reasons but is there a reliable source one could be pointed to to ascertain what is beneath the skin of modern sprot bikes? I mean the most people really get before purchasing is a shortish test ride and a few articles in magazines or off the net. Not many of which point to the tunability/rebuildability of the internal cartridges....

There used to be a totally up front source in the States, ''Road Racing World'' Trouble was the distributors / manufacturers blacklisted them from having test bikes....imagine if one of the magazines here in NZ was totally candid. Not only do we have a Government that exercises press censorship, commerce exercises its own effective form of censorship. Our small population exacerbates the effect of these realities.

There is of course a difference between subjective reasoned judgement of products and open slather bad mouthing. Those that engage in the second option know who they are.

I would expect that we will see more non rebuildable / non tunable cartridges like the ones I mentioned. And ( sorry ) no, Im not going to put my head on the chopping block over this.

[Robert Taylor]

At the risk of sticking my nose in... the whole oil things I feel needs some considerable expansion.

Firstly that stuff many of us buy based on the price tag rather than the specification or quality, or worse have fallen victim to a completely dubious marketing campaign based on catch phrases rather than fact....

The considerable technology and ongoing R&D invested in oil products would astound all of us if we could comprehend the extents of the technology, budget, and qualifications and experience of the numerous white coated technicians manipulating molecules to make ever better oils.

Anyhow, as Robert alluded to the S.A.E. numbers don't really mean much when used in suspension. All quality suspension fluids have their viscosity expressed in centistrokes at a temperature reflective of its mean operating temperature. Why is this important? We first have to understand the S.A.E. viscosity numbering systems intention. When we think about oil destined for a engine application we assume that the the viscosity rating is a measure of the "flowability" of an oil. More specifically, it is the property of an oil to develop and maintain a certain amount of shearing stress dependent on flow, and then to offer continued resistance to flow. This is important because of the way a plain bearing works. It is not the oil pressure generated by the oil pump that keeps the crank separated from the crank bearings. Rather, it is a local area of higher pressure generated by the shearing action of the parts moving relative to each other. This "hydro-dynamic bearing" layer is what resists the forces of pistons and so on. As a result the S.A.E. developed a number of approved methods for measuring the shear strength of oil, and oil weights are representative primarily of their shear strength not their flowability. The centistrokes measure is however primarily concerned with the flowability of the fluid, which in the case of suspension components is of far greater importance. To a lesser extent we don't care what the shear strength of the oil film is but rather how it is going to perform when being passed through an orifice. While the shear strength and flowability are related they are not as closely related as you might instinctively think. This is why three brands of the same weight oil will perform quite differently in a suspension application as their centistrokes measurements will vary considerably.

Then we need to be concerned with the viscosity index. This is a rating of how well the fluid holds its viscosity when exposed to temperature, the bigger the number the better (pretty much). Many multi grade engine oils claim to be able to maintain their viscosity over a wide temperature range. They do this by additives to the base oil (usually some form of polymer) that has a positive viscosity temperature coefficient, so as the base oil thins as a result of heat the polymer thickens, hence keeping the observable viscosity static over a wide range of temperatures. Usually the better the oil the longer this effect will last for. However one particular oil that is popular in motorcycle applications looses its viscosity index so alarmingly quickly I wouldn't put it in a lawn mower, and worse it has a 0% zinc content!! For a suspension component this is ultimately the ability to have consistent damping over a wide range of operating temperatures, again cheap or poorly specified suspension fluids either degrade quickly in service or simply don't manage to remain stable over the working temperature range of the suspension and deliver unpredictable results at best.

We also need to be concerned with PH in suspension components, most modem suspension components have a number of different materials present in them. If the Ph is too far from the neutral range, galvanic corrosion can destroy things up internally at a rate that deifies belief! Many people incorrectly diagnose erosion on the damper pistons as cavitation scaring when in fact it is exactly the same thing that destroys the props on boats in salt water. The Ph of the oil is really affected by the water it picks up because the water will react with gasses to form acids. This means that suspension fluids need to handled with the same care as brake fluid! Many lower grade suspension fluids have a significant water content sitting in the sealed bottle on the shelf.

Oil is not the simple stuff you can easily mistake it for. In times gone past when the front forks of basically everything had damper rod forks pretty much any semi reasonable oil of the right grade was just fine, it was under very low levels of stress. When dealing with modern high performance cartridge forks the oil is under enormous stress, there are disturbingly few oils that will give acceptable performance across the temperature ranges experienced in New Zealand, and if you want them to offer consistent performance past a few hunderd K's the choice gets very small indeed.... Then spare a though for the extraordinarily highly stressed oil in your rear shock working under pressures often in excess of 12 Bar and temperatures easily exceeding 80 degrees C, A poor choice of oil here can have dire consequences.

Thanks for doing a much more thorough and detailed job of explaining suspension oil issues than I would have. Its worth mentioning that temperature stability at the lower end of the scale is important when selecting fork oils. As there is a lot of metal mass in forks and they are always exposed to the cooling airstream ( and are not in close promity to a warm engine and headers ) they will usually run at ambient temperature or slightly below.

I am sure we race motorcycles during our winters in conditions that the Europeans would usually stay home at....please somebody correct me if Im wrong. Fork action can feel very lethargic first thing on a frosty race morning at Taupo or Teretonga. But come early afternoon when the sun is out the action becomes a little happier. A fork fluid that ''thickens'' only slightly as the barometer drops is called for.

In pushing my own barrow Ohlins make a high percentage of the worlds snowmobile shock absorbers so are neccessarily pedantic about oils with great flow characteristics at sub zero temps. Their branded oil ( supplied by a Norwegian company ) provides the neccessary characteristics. Also, to the best of my knowledge they are the only supplier of suspension oils to label their bottles with the first and very most important part of selection, the centistroke rating.

[Robert Taylor]

Great reading from you Robert and TDC . A far cry from the seventies Prod/bikes that we stuffed engine oil and packers into the forks and put the preload on the rear to full and just hoped our TT100's would grip ? I'm now in the 21st century........Gaz.

Yes and I remember well sweating away fitting those TT100s. Still a great brand of tyre as Bugden and Smith proved.

[Pixie]

In truth the biggest immediate improvements are going to come from those newer tyres and your own personal riding development. As will ensuring you stay lean and mean and sharp. Ie no mind altering substances etc.



Brings to mind an acquaintance from many years ago.
When he started recounting how he was going to work over his Benelli 250 to make it perform better, his wife suggested that loosing 3 stone would be cheaper and have more effect on the bikes performance.

[Sollyboy]

The forks you mention are as individually anonymous to me as your own personal identity.

The only second tier ''Ohlins name only'' products ''available'' are the ones fitted to some Yamaha models that were built for Japanese domestic market consumption only and never intended for export out of Japan. The majority shareholder in Ohlins flexing its muscle, and NZ ( as a country of often ''challenged'' thinking ) is taking cast offs.

Not all Aprilia models have Ohlins forks. Right at this moment I have both a set of Aprilia Ohlins forks to service and a set of Showa forks from a cheaper Aprilia variant. The work instructions for the Showas is to rework them

You say ''an earlier Aprilia 1000 model'' but no elaboration of overall condition. The Ohlins product on those Aprilias is fairly chunky in construction but very poor? First and only time Ive ever been told that, maybe as an engineer ( started my carreer with aircraft ) my perception of quality is different to yours....

Point of fact the overall quality is very very high and so is the ultimate longevity. Much more so than a Japanese fork the overlap where the lower tube threads into the lower castings is substanially longer and stronger than in a Japanese sportbike fork. There are 2 current popular litre class Japanese sportbikes that will develop movement between the lower tube and bottom casting over time, especially if the rider likes pulling wheelies and is a late braker. When that happens it is a costly job. The Ohlins forks never develop that problem but if you bend a tube you can replace just that tube only as it is designed to be seperated from the casting. And guess what, cheaper than a Japanese fork to rebuild...

Ohlins road and track forks also flex less under heavy braking and therefore ( the great disadvantage of inverted forks ) will not bind as readily. In inverted forks there is a bushing just above the oil seal and a second bushing further up roughly located halfway between the upper and lower triple clamps. The upper fork tubes can actually deflect a horrible amount under heavy braking meaning the bushings are no longer on the same centreline. The Japanese ''engineering by accountancy'' semi fix is just to increase clearances.

For all their limitations ''right side up forks'' remain a lot more compliant under conditions that induce fork flex, simply because the primary bending moment is happening above the bushings...

Cynically, I would suggest the ''lighter and lighter'' trend with modern Japanese sportbike forks also has a little to do with material costs. Many of these latest sportbike forks are very nicely ''turned out'' on the outside but
underneath the outerwear can hide a whole load of horrible compromises. As one overseas road race suspension tuner I know will reluctantly testify, ''she wasnt a girl''.

The new coatings do indeed work, but only when mated with either genuine seals or the very highest quality aftermarket seals who supply to oem. The coating itself is only virtually a wafer thin ''veneer mist'' Looks like MotoGP but thats where it stops.

So we go inside the forks, theres one brand of litre class bike that for years has had a cartridge with a top bushing that is not on the same centreline as the out of round cartridge tube. To exacerbate that ( and this is common to all the oem stuff ) when the cartridge is bolted in it almost always cocks a little to one side because the lower casting surface it abuts against is not perpendicular to the fork tube! AND... one of the current crop of 600 sportbikes has the cheapest nastiest front fork cartridges that you have ever seen. As a term of relativity last years cartridges look as if they would have come out of the Ferrari factory ( although that rather flatters them ) This years look like a lowest level budget replacement that would be made in China for resale by SuperCheap auto.

As an aftermarket company with a reputation for quality, engineering and performance excellence Ohlins pay very close attention to precise tolerancing and assembly truth. And the product is very tunable with an enormous setting bank of information readily accessible from the factory and other distributors. Point of fact we have our own database of knowledge and experience to further optimise the product performance for our often nasty road and track conditions.

Last year Yamaha Motor Australias road race team raced with YZFR1SP's, equipped standard with Ohlins suspension at both eand poor backup of many cheap products I fully expect some retort by ''ghost writers'' My answer to that is I have no respect for those who make a living out of products that effectively misrepresent standards of performance and quality. And I especially have antipathy for those who provide no backup and those who are doing a lousy job through use of substandard parts, lack of appropriate tools, training and experience etc.

Is anyone having problems with adjustment range with the oem Ohlins steering damper fitted standard to the most current model ZX10? If so we are currently testing a cost effective cure that we think will improve its performance substanially.

The forks were on a Haga replica aprillia, they were definately ohlins ,I noticed the same thing on 2 aprillias and if you saw them youd see what I mean by poor quality externally at least, Im not doubting that 99% of ohlins stuff is ok ,Im still very happy with the shock I got off you and the amount i saved in rear rubber paid for the shock very quickly , but if you tried to sell me forks and they looked like the ones I saw itd be no deal, I saw the ohlins on the later Aprillias and they were what I expected

[imdying]

For the curious, RSV Haga forks here:

http://w1.bikepics.com/pics/2004%5C04%5C26%5Cbikepics-141062-full.jpg
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/04june02apriliaspecialedition.html
http://www.bikepics.com/pictures/801941/

Got wood?

[HDTboy]

Ohlins (http://www.ohlins.com/Automotive/InsideTTXContainerPage/TTXIntroduction/tabid/131/Default.aspx) website has quite a bit of information on the new TTX and how they work

[NordieBoy]

Hmmm, so the shocks on my MX bike are probably rooted by now...

Got anything on the shelf to fit a 1979 XR250?


As has been said, great reading in this thread.

[Robert Taylor]

Hmmm, so the shocks on my MX bike are probably rooted by now...

Got anything on the shelf to fit a 1979 XR250?


As has been said, great reading in this thread.

We in fact custom build lots of twin shocks for especially classic MX, in varying levels of specification

[NordieBoy]

How much would a very base level set of shocks go for?
I'd be guessing it would be a lot more than the rest of the bike was worth.

I'm not a serious racer although you may have thought so by my choice of steed so 1980's type fixes may be enough for the meantime.

Now if I can find a C&J frame to put my engine in it may be a different story :D

[vifferman]

Robert, replacing the rear shock is a relatively simple matter on most bikes, but is it then a big (and expensive) deal mating it with some uprated front suspension? MY VFR800 has fairly low-budget Showa suspension, and 44K miles on the odometer. While I can get a replacement rear shock that will improve the back end, what do I do with the front? Cartridge emulators, the right weight/volume of oil and better springs?

I know some VFR owners have replaced the forks with CBR600RR or VTR1000 lowers and fitted new springs, or even gone to R1 or SP1/SP2 USD forks, but none of these options is easy here, with good replacement forks being hard to get hold of and relatively expensive.

[Robert Taylor]

How much would a very base level set of shocks go for?
I'd be guessing it would be a lot more than the rest of the bike was worth.

I'm not a serious racer although you may have thought so by my choice of steed so 1980's type fixes may be enough for the meantime.

Now if I can find a C&J frame to put my engine in it may be a different story :D

$1290 per pair inclusive, piggyback reservoir. Or if there is enough length for a dividing gas piston within a single tube type then figure $1100 incl.

[Robert Taylor]

Robert, replacing the rear shock is a relatively simple matter on most bikes, but is it then a big (and expensive) deal mating it with some uprated front suspension? MY VFR800 has fairly low-budget Showa suspension, and 44K miles on the odometer. While I can get a replacement rear shock that will improve the back end, what do I do with the front? Cartridge emulators, the right weight/volume of oil and better springs?

I know some VFR owners have replaced the forks with CBR600RR or VTR1000 lowers and fitted new springs, or even gone to R1 or SP1/SP2 USD forks, but none of these options is easy here, with good replacement forks being hard to get hold of and relatively expensive.

Yes these have the non compliant high friction shock from hell, Arnold Scharzeneger developed the internal setting spec and receives royalties from the tyre companies......my Scandinavian friends have a great solution for the rear end.

I will consult my database tommorrow re what is in the forks on those, they may be low grade cartridge type. Irrespective we can achieve an enormous improvement in compliance while maintaining great ride height control. This without resorting to grafting on other forks plus all the appendages and costly time consuming hassles.

[Sanx]

Mr Taylor ... have you an opinion on the effectiveness of Honda's electronic steering damper?

[TDC]

The forks were on a Haga replica aprillia, they were definately ohlins ,I noticed the same thing on 2 aprillias and if you saw them youd see what I mean by poor quality externally at least, Im not doubting that 99% of ohlins stuff is ok ,Im still very happy with the shock I got off you and the amount i saved in rear rubber paid for the shock very quickly , but if you tried to sell me forks and they looked like the ones I saw itd be no deal, I saw the ohlins on the later Aprillias and they were what I expected

OK, curiosity has got the better of me, thanks to imdying we all could have easily "got wood" just looking at the piccys...

So what it is that makes these Swedish items of desire "poor quality", cause for the life of me I just don't get it???

[Sollyboy]

OK, curiosity has got the better of me, thanks to imdying we all could have easily "got wood" just looking at the piccys...

So what it is that makes these Swedish items of desire "poor quality", cause for the life of me I just don't get it???

Im talking about one particular example that I didnt see on the later up spec model, and that photo would not have enough detail to see what Im talking about, mind you hes already said there is japolin knock offs out there so who knows

[TDC]

Im talking about one particular example that I didnt see on the later up spec model, and that photo would not have enough detail to see what Im talking about, mind you hes already said there is japolin knock offs out there so who knows

As I read it there are "japolin knock offs" for rear shocks but not for front forks? If those piccy's can't show what you mean I guess it must be pretty minor...

Anyhow just curious...

[Robert Taylor]

Robert, replacing the rear shock is a relatively simple matter on most bikes, but is it then a big (and expensive) deal mating it with some uprated front suspension? MY VFR800 has fairly low-budget Showa suspension, and 44K miles on the odometer. While I can get a replacement rear shock that will improve the back end, what do I do with the front? Cartridge emulators, the right weight/volume of oil and better springs?

I know some VFR owners have replaced the forks with CBR600RR or VTR1000 lowers and fitted new springs, or even gone to R1 or SP1/SP2 USD forks, but none of these options is easy here, with good replacement forks being hard to get hold of and relatively expensive.

The forks are indeed low grade cartridge type and can be improved significantly. E-mail me robert@northwest.co.nz and I will give you a menu of options

[Robert Taylor]

Mr Taylor ... have you an opinion on the effectiveness of Honda's electronic steering damper?

I havent directly analysed any but will be looking at a Suzuki example soon, with an open mind. If they suffer cavitation like the other oem offerings then it wont matter how much technology there is to arrange a damping curve that is progressive. So much is done for marketing reasons rather than pure no nonsense function.

There must be a degree of skepticism out there because the Honda race team substituted the electronic offerings on their CBR1000RR race bikes with Ohlins sidemount. And I have also fielded enquiries for same for 07 CBR600RR.

The jury is out on this one......

[Robert Taylor]

As I read it there are "japolin knock offs" for rear shocks but not for front forks? If those piccy's can't show what you mean I guess it must be pretty minor...

Anyhow just curious...

''Japolin knock offs'' for a very very limited number of domestic market only Yamahas, never intended for export out of Japan. Rear twin shocks ONLY. In our little motorcycle world this issue is very minor. ( Cars a seperate issue )I very transparently pointed it out so that people were not effectively misled. Japolin shaft size 12.5mm, genuine Swedish 12mm. Chalk and cheese in all respects.

Sorry if this sounds abrupt but I think I just might be the most informed person in NZ re this.....END.

[Pixie]

Robert, replacing the rear shock is a relatively simple matter on most bikes, but is it then a big (and expensive) deal mating it with some uprated front suspension? MY VFR800 has fairly low-budget Showa suspension, and 44K miles on the odometer. While I can get a replacement rear shock that will improve the back end, what do I do with the front? Cartridge emulators, the right weight/volume of oil and better springs?

I know some VFR owners have replaced the forks with CBR600RR or VTR1000 lowers and fitted new springs, or even gone to R1 or SP1/SP2 USD forks, but none of these options is easy here, with good replacement forks being hard to get hold of and relatively expensive.

Do this: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=52932&page=2

Or get Robert to do it for you

[Robert Taylor]

Do this: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=52932&page=2

Or get Robert to do it for you

I STRONGLY disagree with this sort of work being done by anyone other than experienced, knowledgable dedicated proffessionals with full and proper equipment, and I mean a serious investment. People that are doing this sort of work all the time and are prepared to back it up. On the face of it, it may appear to be easy to do ( and will be for some ). I am not saying that people are stupid but there are a lot of finer points , precautions and knowledge borne of experience that are not detailed in fitting instructions.

Just yesterday I sorted out some forks that had Race Tech internals fitted with standard suggested settings that just did not work, the job was also appalling, I see this sort of thing all the time. The sad thing is the guy had been to a Race Tech seminar and was an ''instant expert'' at fitting kits! In reality it only gives you an insight and the Diplomas recognise attendance more than anything. Cold, hard fact.

EXPERIENCE IS EVERYTHING. I dont wish to engage in a protracted forum war re this matter. Suffice to say I am doing the lions share of road / road race suspension work at the sharp end and Pixie Im sorry for this worn out old cliche..... Ive seen inside more fork and shock units than most people have had hot dinners!

When I get the time and inclination I will be submitting a post exposing the negatives that are happening in what really is a specialist field, that sadly is bastardised by a few people with big hammers and few clues. Having originally come from an aircraft engineering background there is a saying ''you cannot park an aircraft on a cloud'' So I make no apologies for having a very condescending view of work that is not done as it should be.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Do this: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=52932&page=2

Or get Robert to do it for you

Good for you for doing it yourself, but I looked at that picture and thought: "Nah". Its just too much for my limited talents. I will ride better and faster if I know Ive sent the stuff off to an expert rather than thinking as my knee begins to skim the tarmac "Wonder if I tightened that widget properly"? or "What about those leftover bits sitting on the bench?"

I have come to realise the limits of my talents and finally to have the money to pay people to do what they do. Maybe wisdom does come with age?

[Robert Taylor]

Good for you for doing it yourself, but I looked at that picture and thought: "Nah". Its just too much for my limited talents. I will ride better and faster if I know Ive sent the stuff off to an expert rather than thinking as my knee begins to skim the tarmac "Wonder if I tightened that widget properly"? or "What about those leftover bits sitting on the bench?"

I have come to realise the limits of my talents and finally to have the money to pay people to do what they do. Maybe wisdom does come with age?

Well said that man! My two teenage daughters are typical of same, they think they are bulletproof and know everything. My standard retort ''I'm too old to know everything'' Their boyfriend choices need a little guidance....!

I think it better for one to concentrate on what one does best, work at accruing income from that and leave specialist jobs to the experts, especially where ones safety ( and those around you ) is at stake. After all, Im not going to perform open heart surgery with a set of instructions at my side.

While its kind of admirable to say ''have a go yourself'' such a statement pays little credence to the real world reality that in fact the highest percentage of kits that are fitted privately are not done so properly and the performance is often very short of what is possible. ( I am not saying that there arent people out there who can do a great job.) At the risk of being on a ''hit list'' ( probably am already ) this argument is just as applicable to asking a mechanic who has either never performed this work before or does so only ''once in a blue moon''. Anyone who challenges this statement to the contrary will know they are being a little economical with the truth.

I really have a problem with the ''Kiwi can do'' myth, a cliche from simpler times. This is not like laying concrete with your mates, this is about messing with settings in low flying guided missiles with the potential to maim and kill. Not so very long ago a young racer paralysed himself because he was riding a bike with external adjustments made to it that were a seriously bad call. He now has the rest of his life to reflect on that. That parrallells drink driving or suffering from the brain wasting effects of illegal mind altering substances.

As I eluded to in my previous post experience is everything and so is having the investment in the right equipment to do so. Technically, many of the oem forks ( and shocks ) we see today are not actually designed to be modified. Very often when kits are being fitted a lathe and great care is required to optimise fitting clearances and deflection limits etc for correct function. There are also a whole plethora of special holding tools, adaptors etc that make the job much easier and quicker. I think it also helps to have come from a background of formal training and qualification where detailed processing skills, precision, quality control and great fussiness are paramount.

Proffessionals have this equipment, many self proclaimed suspension experts have very little equipment or a database of knowledge and experience. And will try and parasite such knowledge from those who have properly invested. To that end its worth asking searching questions ( I will post a list in the future ) As for myself I can lay claim to 25 years experience, a huge arsenal of suspension tools and a sophisticated suspension dyno. This dyno has been a point of reference and a ''verifier'' for nearly 4 years and has been used to develop many specs from plush road use to National championship winning road race. Further to that 7 trips to Sweden where arguably the acknowledged masters of suspension are based, 2 trips to the US and 2 to Italy ( other suspension companies ). And I can pick up a phone and talk directly to the same guy who designs the suspension units for MotoGP, as used by Teams Ducati, Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki. I think that is a serious level of commitment and investment. And the people who I second to carry out my overspill of work have a totally transparent working relationship.

The Race Tech fork kits work well only if the settings are optimised properly for our local mix of roads that are somewhat less smooth than in Southern California where the stuff is made. For example we change the emulator settings and process the modifications to the damper rods a little differently, as we found a flaw in the way Race Tech suggests it. With respect to the customised on line valving specs it has to be remembered that the settings are focused more towards smoother roads so you are by no means getting the optimum setting. IMPROVEMENT IS A TERM OF RELATIVITY. And I also have a problem with another highly mis-used word, ''perfect''. There is no perfect setting!

Such kits need expert work ( and a database of empirical knowledge ) to make them work acceptably in NZ conditions. Race Tech fail to address one of the biggest problems with many oem forks i.e poor rebound control in part because of rebound needles that are often short squat ''on / off'' plugs with a very short response range. The old GSXR1000 K1/2/3 are notorious for this and it is rare to be more than 3 - 5 clicks out. To that end we have been making appropriately tapered needles for many forks for a number of years and in fact fitted a set to the forks I mentioned in my last post. This issue I am addressing with Race Tech when I visit them in October.

Having read many posts and often being in the field I am of the opinion that the safety issues are regarded too casually.

[Shaun]

Robert, thankyou for the discount. I have just read this thread

When will you be naming the agents on here that you reccomend then

Have a nice day

[Pixie]

Good for you for doing it yourself, but I looked at that picture and thought: "Nah". Its just too much for my limited talents. I will ride better and faster if I know Ive sent the stuff off to an expert rather than thinking as my knee begins to skim the tarmac "Wonder if I tightened that widget properly"? or "What about those leftover bits sitting on the bench?"

I have come to realise the limits of my talents and finally to have the money to pay people to do what they do. Maybe wisdom does come with age?

Which is why I posted the pics.
As dirty Harry said "A man has got to know his limitations"
However, if an individual knows that he is skilled,meticulous,and is not afraid to ask for all the information he can get,there is always the option of performing the task himself.

I gave RaceTech more info than they require about the bike and the roads I ride and I am very pleased with the settings they recommended.
Yesterday I found I was drawn to bumpy bends rather than trying to avoid the bumps.
This included badly corrugated tar seal on sweeping bends.
Ultimately if you do the job yourself you are responsible for you own safety.
Robert's opininion may be coloured by having to rectify too many "good ol' kiwi can do" butchery jobs. And I agree the majority are butchers.I know this from personal observation.

Don't worry I won't be offering my services in competition with the existing suspension experts.
- I get paid too much in my real job.

[Robert Taylor]

Robert, thankyou for the discount. I have just read this thread

When will you be naming the agents on here that you reccomend then

Have a nice day

I can name these very capable service agents at will but wasnt trying to be blatantly commercial. As I see it this is also a site of goodwill ( for ALL kiwibikers? ) and I'd be a little averse to blatantly pushing my own barrow at every given opportunity.

If someone is good at their job and / or has a good product I will reccommend them. But, conversely I will also have little compunction in condemning dodgy practices / advice, so long as I am 110% sure of my facts.

If someone asks me a question on this forum I will endeavour to answer it and certainly the response has been favourable. If people can understand the dynamics of suspension a little better then that arguably leads to commercial opportunities anyhow.

Thankyou for the text messages, maybe you should publish them ?( exactly as per my own record ) on this forum so there can be totally transparent and open discussion about where a line is drawn in the sand. I.e, about where you stop offering people advice and when it becomes commercial. Or keeping it largely secretive as I beleive you are inferring. There have been some very good posts on this forum ( and of course some dodgy ones ) But it is clear that people are responsive and appreciative of knowledge and open discussion. I really appreciate the people that respond who are subjective and reasoning with their questions, rather than pushing an ego or similiar.

If anyone else out there doesnt like the technical discussions that I have published on this site then please say so now.

If on the other hand you would like me to continue with interesting subject matter then I am happy to oblige, as time permits.

BTW, met a number of regular contributors to KB this last weekend at Manfield, great people.

[Robert Taylor]

Which is why I posted the pics.
As dirty Harry said "A man has got to know his limitations"
However, if an individual knows that he is skilled,meticulous,and is not afraid to ask for all the information he can get,there is always the option of performing the task himself.

I gave RaceTech more info than they require about the bike and the roads I ride and I am very pleased with the settings they recommended.
Yesterday I found I was drawn to bumpy bends rather than trying to avoid the bumps.
This included badly corrugated tar seal on sweeping bends.
Ultimately if you do the job yourself you are responsible for you own safety.
Robert's opininion may be coloured by having to rectify too many "good ol' kiwi can do" butchery jobs. And I agree the majority are butchers.I know this from personal observation.



Don't worry I won't be offering my services in competition with the existing suspension experts.
- I get paid too much in my real job.

Thanks, overall I think you have reinforced what I was trying to say. And it is clear that you were on top of your game when you went through this exercise. You have clearly tried to understand suspension and achieved your objectives. Many would prefer that it is largely secretive but my intent is Quality of installation / performance and Safety being paramount.

[k14]

If anyone else out there doesnt like the technical discussions that I have published on this site then please say so now.

If on the other hand you would like me to continue with interesting subject matter then I am happy to oblige, as time permits.

BTW, met a number of regular contributors to KB this last weekend at Manfield, great people.
Yes please. More more more. This stuff is gold. You should write a book on this stuff, I'm sure it would sell very well.

[Pumba]

Yes please. More more more. This stuff is gold.

+1:yes:

This thread has been the best, most inforative thread I have ever read on KB, without doubt.

[Kickaha]

If anyone else out there doesnt like the technical discussions that I have published on this site then please say so now.

If on the other hand you would like me to continue with interesting subject matter then I am happy to oblige, as time permits.


I for one appreciate all that you've posted and long may it continue, it has been both interesting and informative :yes:

[98tls]

Same goes for me........a great thread,as someone afflicted with a mod at all costs disease i find it particually interesting...ive an old TLS1000 that i just cant stop mucking about with...ive gone with a hagon rear damper..not in ohlins league so i keep hearing and alot cheaper but definately an improvement on the oem rear damper idea..ive recently bought a set of busa forks set up for a TLR in the states by traxxion dynamics..spelling..and am looking forward to seeing how they perform,what caught my eye was the brakes attached to them.Yea i know it would be easier and wiser to buy a new bike but this is just so much fun.as i say an awsome thread and i for one am enjoying it.oh and no i didnt bother buying the discs...

[Sensei]

Originally Posted by Robert Taylor
If anyone else out there doesnt like the technical discussions that I have published on this site then please say so now.

The only people that wouldn't be happy with what you have to say Robert would be someone that has been fooling others on here that they are a so called suspension Specialist . Could you answer this for me would a fully kitted Jap fork with Ohlins internals be as good/better than a genuine set of Ohlins fork like on my Aprilia if both where set for our conditions & roads .

[imdying]

Could you answer this for me would a fully kitted Jap fork with Ohlins internals be as good/better than a genuine set of Ohlins fork like on my Aprilia if both where set for our conditions & roads .I wondered the same thing! Apparently (for example) GSXR1000 outers are physically pretty good, so by the time you've junked the cartridges and springs (not the cheapest thing to have done, but apparently extremely effective), they're essentially as good as Ohlins R&T forks. Of course, the Ohlins R&T forks aren't that much more expensive by the time you've fitted the Ohlins cartridge kits.

There appears to be other intangible benefits though that are worth contemplating... the Ohlins R&T forks let you swap around caliper mounts, of course the Aprilia ones don't let you do that, but like the R&T ones, they do let you replace the axle holder separately from the lower tube, which might save you $$$ one day. Then there's sex appeal... can you really put a price on that? :scooter:

[Robert Taylor]

I wondered the same thing! Apparently (for example) GSXR1000 outers are physically pretty good, so by the time you've junked the cartridges and springs (not the cheapest thing to have done, but apparently extremely effective), they're essentially as good as Ohlins R&T forks. Of course, the Ohlins R&T forks aren't that much more expensive by the time you've fitted the Ohlins cartridge kits.

There appears to be other intangible benefits though that are worth contemplating... the Ohlins R&T forks let you swap around caliper mounts, of course the Aprilia ones don't let you do that, but like the R&T ones, they do let you replace the axle holder separately from the lower tube, which might save you $$$ one day. Then there's sex appeal... can you really put a price on that? :scooter:

Ill come back to you guys with a full reply tonight, suffice to say that there are a few ''swings and roundabouts'' And I also need to reply to your e-mail about SV forks.....

[GSVR]

I suppose the most obvious reason for just doing the internals is for production racing thats all your allowed to do.

[imdying]

I suppose the most obvious reason for just doing the internals is for production racing thats all your allowed to do.I did wonder that, but I don't know enough about product racing to add much useful... do they allow replacement cartridges? (and how would they know?)

[k14]

I did wonder that, but I don't know enough about product racing to add much useful... do they allow replacement cartridges? (and how would they know?)
Both supersport and superbike (for NZ anyway) allow replacing the fork internals but I'm pretty sure you have to run the stock externals. The only classes you're allowed free reign on the front ends are F3 and 125.

[Robert Taylor]

Ill come back to you guys with a full reply tonight, suffice to say that there are a few ''swings and roundabouts'' And I also need to reply to your e-mail about SV forks.....

Yes, all the litre and 600 class sportbikes have exterior tubes that are a whole lot better than in years past, but as I see it with a major caveat...they are now so minimalist in wall thickness and light weight they actually deflect by an incredible amount under hard braking. That causes stiction, given that the main bending moment is under the main triple clamp and the load bearing bushings are displaced under and above that triple clamp. On a handful of higher mileage examples I have also evidenced a loss of tight fit between the lower tubes and the castings they screw into.

MotoGP and WSBK forks are if anything headed in the opposite direction, the sizes of the tubes, design and materials chosen afford a whole load more rigidity under braking and load, reducing stiction / friction. Flex is introduced elsewhere, be it in the design of the triple clamps ( and the very clamping itself ) and the frame.

The cartridges inside these oem production forks are ''sight unseen'' and in previous posts I have explained the major misalignment issues and resultant friction etc etc. Also the wafer veneer of the friction reducing coatings, far removed from the 16 stage process on genuine MotoGP / WSBK race forks.

In answering questions about Ohlins R & T forks they are much more solidly constructed with thicker walls and much more rigidity, that means better braking performance and less stiction. Just those factors alone mean a more compliant action, people in general majorly underestimate just how much friction reduction is a key part of suspension tuning. The caveat of course with these more rigid forks being a little more weight.

The cartridges in these forks are smack bang on the same centreline of the main tubes, the cartridge tubes are actually round and true etc etc . Ohlins always ''push'' the word precision, that and the results are no idle claims. But, candidly the internal settings can be improved further for our often very rough poorly surfaced roads. As NZ represents only 0.06% of the worlds population it would be naive to expect any manufacturer to have settings developed specifically for us. That reinforces why people that distribute technical products should be TOTALLY technically conversant with these products and proactive in optimising for market conditions. Again I would say, it is just not good enough to just flog off product.....

The production racing rules in this country mirror those of many other developed western countries, the outer tubes of the forks must remain oem but you are allowed to change the internals to aftermarket. Given the major precision issues with many of the oem fork internals that is a good thing.

It wont have escaped everyones attention that in Australia last season and for part of this season Yamaha Motor Australia raced 06 production YZFR1SP's which have oem Ohlins R & T forks fitted. But even R & T forks are built to a price. They were further equipped with ''out of the catalogue'' Ohlins racing cartridge inserts. Race bike results are the ''sum of all their parts'' but it is reasonable to surmise that their racetrack success was assisted by the performance of these forks.

If anyone wants a set of gas charged TTX concept forks ( part Number FGR800 ) legal for their F3 bike I am happy to accept pre-orders. Half down ( $7500 ) and remaining half on delivery.( !!!! )

[Robert Taylor]

Same goes for me........a great thread,as someone afflicted with a mod at all costs disease i find it particually interesting...ive an old TLS1000 that i just cant stop mucking about with...ive gone with a hagon rear damper..not in ohlins league so i keep hearing and alot cheaper but definately an improvement on the oem rear damper idea..ive recently bought a set of busa forks set up for a TLR in the states by traxxion dynamics..spelling..and am looking forward to seeing how they perform,what caught my eye was the brakes attached to them.Yea i know it would be easier and wiser to buy a new bike but this is just so much fun.as i say an awsome thread and i for one am enjoying it.oh and no i didnt bother buying the discs...

Hey thanks guys, if I say anything that is wrong I dont at all mind being challenged on it and falling on my sword. I have a few interesting subjects, but as time permits.

[Robert Taylor]

Mr Taylor ... have you an opinion on the effectiveness of Honda's electronic steering damper?

The update on this is that we found cavitation on the Suzuki damper and replaced it

[Sensei]

So to cut along story short Robert , The Japanese fork will be greatly improved with your Ohlins internals but still will have tube flex which will course stiction & reduced feel , where as my Ohlins forks with the Mod that you have done for Daves Tuono forks just last week will give the best results & feel be it road or track . Which reminds me i must have you do a service on them & Mod them when ya have a window open in ya busy work load :Punk:

[limbimtimwim]

Robert, what is the best way to mount a steering damper? Ducati style? Suzuki style (Hiding down there)? Or old-school attached to the frame and a fork-leg style?

And why?

[Robert Taylor]

So to cut along story short Robert , The Japanese fork will be greatly improved with your Ohlins internals but still will have tube flex which will course stiction & reduced feel , where as my Ohlins forks with the Mod that you have done for Daves Tuono forks just last week will give the best results & feel be it road or track . Which reminds me i must have you do a service on them & Mod them when ya have a window open in ya busy work load :Punk:

Hmmm...you have stated in relatively few words what I wrote a friggin novel about!

[boomer]

Mr Taylor good Sir, I understand you spent a fair amount of your precious time looking after Jimmy fast pants and his new rocket ship.. i don't suppose you've had chance or the inclination to look at the stockers you ripped of and maybe have some comments, pointers or guides as to how, if at all, they could be improved upon?


ps.. this thread is like rocking horse shit..PRICELESS!

[Sensei]

Mr Taylor good Sir, I understand you spent a fair amount of your precious time looking after Jimmy fast pants and his new rocket ship.. i don't suppose you've had chance or the inclination to look at the stockers you ripped of and maybe have some comments, pointers or guides as to how, if at all, they could be improved upon?

Look baby Windmill read Roberts post above or my shortend version . Put ya hand in your pocket & get some $$$$$$$ & get Robert to put some Ohlins gear into your new Shitter problem solved

[Robert Taylor]

Robert, what is the best way to mount a steering damper? Ducati style? Suzuki style (Hiding down there)? Or old-school attached to the frame and a fork-leg style?

And why?

This is a mixed bag of lollies.

Transverse mount is relatively crashproof, especially where Suzuki favour mounting them just forward of the lower triple clamp.

The ''hey look at me'' transverse ones with elaborate fitting brackets mounted inbetween the forward part of the tank and top triple clamp are to my mind a pain in the butt. Another series of fiddly bits for a race mechanic to remove when he has to inevitably access under the petrol tank. And when these are decorated in the gawdy colours of a cheap tart they frankly look terrible! Far better to have subtle, elegant colours and good sound engineering and function, just like the girl next door. Arguably a little more crashproof than sidemount but it depends on the type of crash. More expensive to purchase because of the fitting appendages and therefore more expensive to replace. I seriously have to wonder what percentage of the sales is to in part make a fashion statement.

Compared to a sidemount damper the short stroke, squat transverse type dampers have to provide a lot of damping within a very short stroke, for the same amount of handlebar arc movement. That means it is doubly important that there is no cavitation when alternating between stroke directions. Because of the high force within short stroke criteria of such dampers the service intervals are neccessarily closer. Asuuming of course you have a damper that is designed to be serviced and that the distributor is committed enough to have full and proper service back up.

Conversely a sidemount damper will for the same amount of handlebar arc movement do its damping over a much longer stroke. It is much easier to modulate a larger volume of flow. The minus is being less crashproof, just ask racer number 37!

On a purely technical / best function criteria I always personally prefer sidemount. I have recently obliquely been accused of being too helpful with information over this forum so I may as well also be accused of promoting steering dampers that are more likely to need replacing after race crashes!

From the Ohlins perspective the adjustment needles in the transverse dampers are a solid type with a slow taper to help control the high damping force required. The specific sidemount ones have much the same needle but it is cross drilled with a bypass hole through it as there is much more mass flow in such an installation. As this damper will cycle at higher shaft velocity more damping is naturally created, neccessitating the bypass bleed.

Now here is something a little perverse. It has recently come to my attention that the Ohlins steering damper fitted as oem to the 06 onwards ZX10 is not the same animal as the aftermarket Ohlins damper for the ZX10. When the oem damper is closed off at zero clicks out it has approximately the same damping force as the aftermarket example at about 8-9 clicks out, with I suspect a much less progressive damping characteristic. At zero click outs the oem one is virtually locked up, when you have the damper only in your hand. ( i.e less leverage ) I am reading between the lines here but I suspect that KHI were especially gunshy about product liability / people crashing. Especially in the States where some drug taking brain dead Johnie wiil crank the damper up, go for a ride, crash and then hire a money grubbing lawyer the next day.

What Ohlins have done in response to KHIs specific request for less damping is to fit the cross drilled sidemount specific needle into the transverse damper. We know, because we compared an oem and aftermarket Ohlins side by side..

The really sick thing is that in the States ''five minute experts'' on chat forums are suggesting really stupid fixes like filling with much heavier grades of oil etc. So the intention of KHI is in practice counter-productive. There are in fact several different part numbers for these needles and right now we have a unit under test with one of these needle options. Needles for stock are on the way.

The Ohlins steering damper is without argument impossible to service properly without the specific service tools and frankly, a trip to Sweden to learn the finer points of doing it. But it is the best performing and most reliable damper out there.
Simply dont attempt to service it yourself, if someone says they can service it ask them if they are the people who have the only service kit in the country....

Another final concern is the refitment of transverse steering dampers to a later and different model using the much fabled ''kiwi ingenuity'' I have seen some shocking installations where the working arc is somewhat obtuse and the engineering very ''caveman'' And then if it doesnt work properly the product is maligned rather than the dodgy installation.

Hope this helps.....

[boomer]

Look baby Windmill read Roberts post above or my shortend version . Put ya hand in your pocket & get some $$$$$$$ & get Robert to put some Ohlins gear into your new Shitter problem solved

indeed it would be problem solved however i'd like to understand what he found out over the last week or so playing with jimmy ;) i aint no supersport rider, merely a wanna be

i know the stock steering damper should be removed post haste and used as a pretend gun for my 5 year old but am i gonna have to give him 2 pretend rocket launchers as well???

hows things with you anyway fatty? life treatin ya well!

[Sanx]

The really sick thing is that in the States ''five minute experts'' on chat forums are suggesting really stupid fixes like filling with much heavier grades of oil etc. So the intention of KHI is in practice counter-productive. There are in fact several different part numbers for these needles and right now we have a unit under test with one of these needle options. Needles for stock are on the way.

Funny you should mention the five-minute experts. After your comment earlier about the Suzuki electronic steering damper, I did a quick google for "'steering damper' ohlins cbr1000rr" and the first hit took me to a short thread on a Fireblade site where someone had asked roughly the same question as I did. Except the response there went something along the lines of "Honda's HESD is the shit! I very much doubt Ohlins or Scott have the same resources Honda have to develop steering dampers".

Laughable really. Especially considering your comment about Honda's factory race teams junking the HESD unit and fitting an Ohlins one.

[riffer]

I have recently obliquely been accused of being too helpful with information over this forum.

No such thing mate. I don't believe anything you are doing here is putting your business in jeopardy; quite the contrary in fact.

[Pussy]

How much difference, Robert, to the stock Aprillia or Ohlins R&T cartridges, to the aftermarket Ohlins cartridge kits for Showa or Kayaba forks? Are they the same technology? A matter of interest

[Pussy]

Mr Taylor good Sir, I understand you spent a fair amount of your precious time looking after Jimmy fast pants and his new rocket ship.. i don't suppose you've had chance or the inclination to look at the stockers you ripped of and maybe have some comments, pointers or guides as to how, if at all, they could be improved upon?


ps.. this thread is like rocking horse shit..PRICELESS!

Hey, Boomer, I had a set of Ohlins cartridges in my K4 and K6 1000. I can highly recommend them, even for road riding. With the tight manufacturing tolerances in them, they ARE round, and the damper rod DOES run concentric to the cartridge body. They have a very smooth action, with no perceptable stiction. Robert put a set of Kayaba cartridges in a set if vee blocks and rotated them.... the runout was clearly visible to the naked eye... not good for smooth action. My 5c worth

[Robert Taylor]

Mr Taylor good Sir, I understand you spent a fair amount of your precious time looking after Jimmy fast pants and his new rocket ship.. i don't suppose you've had chance or the inclination to look at the stockers you ripped of and maybe have some comments, pointers or guides as to how, if at all, they could be improved upon?


ps.. this thread is like rocking horse shit..PRICELESS!

That is so, it is essentially ''roughed out'' but that is on one track only under relatively low grip conditions and with stock horsepower. More chassis twisting torque, more temps and more available grip will require further work. There is NEVER a perfect setting.

To be honest we pretty much dont look at the stock stuff but I noted that the cartridges are still 20mm whereas the new 07 R1 are 25mm. To that end I think the 20mm Ohlins pistons we used in Sams R6 last year ( final piston type used, we raced with 4 different types ) would be the ticket for the stock cartridges. These pistons have enough flow area for decent square edge bump absorption but also enough progressivity in the port flow rate to allow for decent brake dive resistance.

We fitted Ohlins 25mm race cartridges in the front, these have a new midvalve technique that ''builds'' damping response much faster than a conventional design. Also the high speed compression adjuster is removed as the response range is rather poor, but great for marketing! It is replaced with a small bleed single clicker part.

In the rear Ohlins TTX36 which also provides instant damping response compared to a conventional ''damping build up after the event by shaft displacement shock'' Again, no high speed damping adjustment.

Ohlins are certainly very successfully working and developing this approach and if there is one thing that had dawned on me quite recently it is far more important/ ''everything'' to have excellent low speed damping control at the very outset of damper shaft movement, in fact instantaneous. TDC previously stated it very well, with conventional damping it is happening ''after the event'', as he put it you are trying to arrest a runaway train. With instantaneous damping you can actually have less overall damping giving benefits in sidegrip and off corner traction. Arguably that rather negates the need to have a high speed compression adjuster, a device that sets the velocity at which oil dumps / bypasses, because there is too much damping anyway, determined by the need to arrest the runaway train. ( kind of hope that makes some sense)

The best is yet to come from these shocks, we are still learning from them and the function and setting is very very different to conventional, more so than I first realised. People unfamiliar / untrained with them and dare I say those driven by whatever motives are almost certain to stuff up the performance. I dont in any way say this to protect my business, they take a LOT of understanding. ALSO, they are very very difficult to bleed and a number of special tools are required, totally specific to these.

The electronic streering damper was tested but it very soon became apparent that it was cavitating on stroke oscillation, so it was removed and a trusty Ohllins pressurised one fitted.

That is my engineers perspective, the rider may be worth asking.

[Robert Taylor]

indeed it would be problem solved however i'd like to understand what he found out over the last week or so playing with jimmy ;) i aint no supersport rider, merely a wanna be

i know the stock steering damper should be removed post haste and used as a pretend gun for my 5 year old but am i gonna have to give him 2 pretend rocket launchers as well???

hows things with you anyway fatty? life treatin ya well!

Im not even a rider, but could probably lap faster than the guy on the pink SV....

[Robert Taylor]

Funny you should mention the five-minute experts. After your comment earlier about the Suzuki electronic steering damper, I did a quick google for "'steering damper' ohlins cbr1000rr" and the first hit took me to a short thread on a Fireblade site where someone had asked roughly the same question as I did. Except the response there went something along the lines of "Honda's HESD is the shit! I very much doubt Ohlins or Scott have the same resources Honda have to develop steering dampers".

Laughable really. Especially considering your comment about Honda's factory race teams junking the HESD unit and fitting an Ohlins one.

Ohlins actually make the Scotts steering damper, approximately 10,000 a year. Scotts make their own fitting kits.

In all fairness there is nothing wrong with the basic concept of the electronic steering damper, just the application of it. So much engineering is bastardised by accountants.

[boomer]

thanks Pussy/RT.. i need to read this in the morning when i can understand and digest it; although im sure Sensei will have paraphrased ya by then and made it all clear that i need to spend my cash

[Brian d marge]

Ohlins actually make the Scotts steering damper, approximately 10,000 a year. Scotts make their own fitting kits.

In all fairness there is nothing wrong with the basic concept of the electronic steering damper, just the application of it. So much engineering is bastardised by accountants.

Aint that the truth !!!

lots of point in this thread I want to reply to , expand upon ,,, but Every time I check here Im either Pissed ( again ) at work ,, or just plain tired
theres lots of thinking to be thunk here ,,,

Motogp , flex is one of them ,,,the Gresini team have good handling bikes on the brakes and I cant remember which team , just bought triple clamps and front end from America to solve that on the brakes Stabability

[sAsLEX]

The ''hey look at me' factor . I seriously have to wonder what percentage of the sales is to in part make a fashion statement.

Oh OHLINS get a fair smack of money from those that know the brand and just have the $$ to put them on their bike.



The really sick thing is that in the States ''five minute experts'' on chat forums are suggesting really stupid fixes like filling with much heavier grades of oil etc. So the intention of KHI is in practice counter-productive. There are in fact several different part numbers for these needles and right now we have a unit under test with one of these needle options. Needles for stock are on the way.
Just fill the hole you mention with Sellys Knead it.............




Dont that was a pt.....



. .

[White trash]

That is my engineers perspective, the rider may be worth asking.


It started off alright, Robert and Ohlins made it bloody spectacular! :D

Also, keep ya fork tubes clean and chuck the stock steering damper in the bin.

[imdying]

It started off alright, Robert and Ohlins made it bloody spectacular! :D

Also, keep ya fork tubes clean and chuck the stock steering damper in the bin.So what madness did you have done to your racebike? :scooter:

[Robert Taylor]

How much difference, Robert, to the stock Aprillia or Ohlins R&T cartridges, to the aftermarket Ohlins cartridge kits for Showa or Kayaba forks? Are they the same technology? A matter of interest

It is fair to say that the stock internal cartridges in the R&T forks are built to a price ceiling as they dont use the more exotic materials. But having said that the tubes are round and straight and everything is concentric with the centreline. i.e there is no compromise on precision and therefore function and minimalisation of stiction and friction. There are internal top out springs etc but the fixtures are manufactured more cost effectively.

Ohlins also like any company are ''cursed with accountants'' ( apologies to any accountants reading this! ) but they are top heavy with engineers and their decisions prevail.

The FGK cartridges are top level with top level materials and designed in such a way to facilitate reasonably quick trackside internal setting changes. There is a plethora of alternative internal and external setting parts options. Moreover Ohlins have a setting bank database that distributors can access online with a password protected distributor only website. This setting bank provides the alternative internal shim stack changes and the resultant dyno curves overlayed. We have been working with this very recently and the concept is working awesome.

Just the ease of changing the springs in these cartridges is wonderful.

As eluded to in a previous post Yamaha Motor Australia ran these FGK cartridge kits in the Ohlins R&T suspended front ends on their 06 YZFR1SPs, to devastating effect.

[Robert Taylor]

Hey, Boomer, I had a set of Ohlins cartridges in my K4 and K6 1000. I can highly recommend them, even for road riding. With the tight manufacturing tolerances in them, they ARE round, and the damper rod DOES run concentric to the cartridge body. They have a very smooth action, with no perceptable stiction. Robert put a set of Kayaba cartridges in a set if vee blocks and rotated them.... the runout was clearly visible to the naked eye... not good for smooth action. My 5c worth

The 07 KYB cartridges still exhibit that same horrible friction enhancing runout.

[Robert Taylor]

. .

Granted, but I think it is more agreeable to look at a sophisticated elegant woman wearing a ballgown, as opposed to lamb masquerading as mutton, plastered with too much gawdy mascara...

Understated but very functional as the budget is spent on the engineering.

I vehemently disagree with your suggestion to ''knead it'' the bypass hole. You know as well as I do that successful application of any epoxy type products is dependent on surface preparation / cleanliness ( removal of oil residue etc ) and the care of the person applying it.

What if the stuff dislodged and blocked the bleed hole, potentially causing a crash? Would you want that on your conscience? I know I certainly wouldnt.

I have priced these replacement needles this morning, which incidentally also have a slightly different taper. $16.70 including grab, steal and take. Why would you risk it for such a small sum, probably similiar to or less than the purchase price of a stick of knead it.

[Robert Taylor]

It started off alright, Robert and Ohlins made it bloody spectacular! :D

Also, keep ya fork tubes clean and chuck the stock steering damper in the bin.

Thanks for that but dont forget Kerry who turned up to help me. His phd level brain provided a very valuable contribution and definitely foreshortened arriving at a raceable initial set up very very quickly.

[sAsLEX]

Granted, but I think it is more agreeable to look at a sophisticated elegant woman wearing a ballgown, as opposed to lamb masquerading as mutton, plastered with too much gawdy mascara...


First up, its Mutton dressed up as lamb.


And it was a joke, thanks for biting but now people know how cheap the new parts are!

[slowpoke]

Thanks Robert.
There has been much discussion regarding cartridges, emulators, damping and all sorts of other sexual paraphenalia but there hasn't been much postcoital conversation regarding springs.
I'd be interested in edumacated opinions on the pro's/cons of progressive vs linear springs and the expected useable life span of a decent set of springs.
Thanks in advance erudite peoples.

[imdying]

I vehemently disagree with your suggestion to ''knead it'' the bypass hole. You know as well as I do that successful application of any epoxy type products is dependent on surface preparation / cleanliness ( removal of oil residue etc ) and the care of the person applying it.

What if the stuff dislodged and blocked the bleed hole, potentially causing a crash? Would you want that on your conscience? I know I certainly wouldnt.It's about time someone took the mick outta ya, now you're a real KB member :yes: :D :first: :scooter: :rockon:

[Robert Taylor]

First up, its Mutton dressed up as lamb.


And it was a joke, thanks for biting but now people know how cheap the new parts are!

Correct, my mistake for not previewing my post before submitting and double the embarrassment because I am not posting under a nom de plume.

I think there has been a danger of people automatically assuming that rebuild parts for Ohlins are expensive, in fact that is almost always not so and many rebuild parts are less expensive than KYB, Showa etc. And you can purchase every single fiddly little part.

There is also a lack of margin grabbing middlemen. But there are certain instances, for example the fork guards on the earlier series Ohlins MX forks were made by UFO, to a CR pattern. I have candidly told customers in the past to order as UFO replacement or genuine Honda to save some money.

Thankyou for giving me the opportunity to elaborate.

[limbimtimwim]

[unlike Showa, KYB] ... you can purchase every single fiddly little part.:brick::brick::brick:

:spudgrr:

[Robert Taylor]

No such thing mate. I don't believe anything you are doing here is putting your business in jeopardy; quite the contrary in fact.

Hey thanks for that. I think fairly I have stated things as they actually are instead of how those with vested and not altogether sincere / transparent motives would like people to perceive them to be. There will doubtless be some scheming and plotting go on.

I have candidly noted some issues that concern me with some of the Ohlins products sold as oem and the actions we have taken to make things right, cant be more transparent and honest than that.

I therefore challege other purveyors of product to be just as candid and up front, no nom de plumes or ghost writers.

[Robert Taylor]

It's about time someone took the mick outta ya, now you're a real KB member :yes: :D :first: :scooter: :rockon:

Yeah, thats got to be a fair call, I did post a bit of fun at Frostys expense.

[Robert Taylor]

Thanks Robert.
There has been much discussion regarding cartridges, emulators, damping and all sorts of other sexual paraphenalia but there hasn't been much postcoital conversation regarding springs.
I'd be interested in edumacated opinions on the pro's/cons of progressive vs linear springs and the expected useable life span of a decent set of springs.
Thanks in advance erudite peoples.

If you have a look in the cheap oil filters thread it quickly became a suspension thread, as I recall I said a few things about the relative merits of linear and progressive in one of my posts.

Springs made from the best German or Swedish steel will probably outlive most of us.

[Pussy]

Yeah, thats got to be a fair call, I did post a bit of fun at Frostys expense.

Oops, careful, Robert.....if Frosty doesn't like it, he'll delete your post

[SPman]

No such thing mate. I don't believe anything you are doing here is putting your business in jeopardy; quite the contrary in fact.
I would agree 100% there.Roberts moved from being a shadowy figure, lurking in darkest 'Naki, reputed to be quite good with suspension, but......, to a real person that I'd certainly want to do business with, if and when it comes to suspension upgrade time.
Plus, it's a jolly interesting read!

[Robert Taylor]

I would agree 100% there.Roberts moved from being a shadowy figure, lurking in darkest 'Naki, reputed to be quite good with suspension, but......, to a real person that I'd certainly want to do business with, if and when it comes to suspension upgrade time.
Plus, it's a jolly interesting read!

Thanks!

Perhaps then be aware that those who very very clearly wanted me to remain ''shadowy'' may soon choose to engage in a level of badmouthing. Sad that this is often the only weapon in many peoples armoury who otherwise feel threatened.

Let rock solid facts, open dialogue, results and satisfied customers ( who have paid a fair price ) speak for themselves.

Anyway, onwards, looking forward to answering more tech questions and posting interesting subjects as time permits. I previously had a scathing view of this forum but have been pleasantly surprised at the interested, genuine people who have followed my posts and either challenged what I have submitted or asked questions. All good!

[imdying]

They might choose to do that, but they better have all their ducks in a row first... the little squares beneath your location, they're there because the community heavily values your contribution... not many (if any) have that much 'bling' for 109 posts. We might be relatively unknowledgable about suspension, but we're not total retards... best of all, if we think someone has come here specifically to bad mouth you with no real reason, you'll see one of the finer points of KB, the collective 'FUCK OFF' :yes:

[riffer]

Oops, careful, Robert.....if Frosty doesn't like it, he'll delete your post

I think you'll find that Frosty's too busy sharpening his knives and cleaning his guns and starting at the house across the street at the moment... :yes:

[cowpoos]

Im not even a rider, but could probably lap faster than the guy on the pink SV....


hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.....poor frosty!!!

[boomer]

They might choose to do that, but they better have all their ducks in a row first... the little squares beneath your location, they're there because the community heavily values your contribution... not many (if any) have that much 'bling' for 109 posts. We might be relatively unknowledgable about suspension, but we're not total retards... best of all, if we think someone has come here specifically to bad mouth you with no real reason, you'll see one of the finer points of KB, the collective 'FUCK OFF' :yes:

you speak for yaself .. i think you're tard :yes:

[riffer]

Im not even a rider, but could probably lap faster than the guy on the pink SV....


hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.....poor frosty!!!

You guys are so infracted...

Enough of this bollocks. Talk more suspension. :yes:

[johnsv650]

how much travel would be correct amount of travel on front forks, just got emulator and springs done, rider liked the front end (thanks robert) but if we wanted full travel (what do we do to adjust) more oil or less, or what, hope this helps others with normal forks or is about 80% travel about right.

[Robert Taylor]

how much travel would be correct amount of travel on front forks, just got emulator and springs done, rider liked the front end (thanks robert) but if we wanted full travel (what do we do to adjust) more oil or less, or what, hope this helps others with normal forks or is about 80% travel about right.

At this time of year there is little grip to be had as there is little temperature and therefore little tyre temp. Also I guess the rider is still getting used to the new feel of the bike. For all of these reasons it means you cannot go in as deep under brakes as you would in the summer months, that means less weight carried forward under brakes to place more force onto those forks. Also, if you play with increasing rear ride height, lowering front ride height and lengthening wheelbase that displaces more weight onto the front end. Suspension tuning is full of endless variables and combinations!

Reducing the oil level by approximately 10mm would be a good first step. What you are actually doing is reducing the amount of progressivity of the secondary air spring effect. If reducing it by10mm is not enough go perhaps another 6 -8mm. Another way would be to go the whole 18mm in one step and if that works out to be a little too far simply syringe in 5cc of oil into each leg, it is easier to add oil rather than take it away! You should be able to source veterinary syringes from a vet, providing you can prove that you are not a drug user.

Failing that I have them in stock plus a nice line of hyperdermic needles! ( used to inject nitrogen into shocks through a self sealing membrane)

Bear in mind that if you get the oil level dialed it will not neccessarily be correct for another track and also the available grip to be had. This is one of the variables that suspension tuners play with all the time.

If there is more travel available to be had you should certainly be wanting to liberate it. What you should do to establish where fully bottomed is:

Suspend the front end off the ground, remove wheel and mudguard / any cross fork bracing.

Remove the fork spring out of one fork and reinstall the top cap.

Apply a cable tie to the chrome leg on that fork and mechanically bottom the fork by hand.

Where the cable tie ends up is full travel, your reference point.

[k14]

Is decreasing the preload able to achieve the same effect? Or should preload be set once and never touched again?

[F5 Dave]

Ok this is where I sound like a bit of a dingle-dangler ‘cause I can’t remember much of the details to make myself properly understood I’m sure but:
What was your opinion of the whole idea of using longer top out springs to affect the rebound near top of stroke?

There had been an article in ADB some while back where mr Hay over in Auss had been manufacturing longer springs specially treated (to counter the fact that they were past normal design parameters for a spring to not sack out when at steep angle with few coils).

This in the dirt world was supposed to be a new direction forward, I’m not sure if it took?

To appease those who will grizzle as this is largely a road based community a few Supersport teams were reputedly trialling this approach back in '00 but with limited appeal. As told 3rd hand.:mellow: To some extent the early R1 was slightly oddly set up as such but perhaps with different goals in mind of road holding on bumpy roads, somewhat unconvincingly.

[HDTboy]

Perhaps we could have a road, race, and offroad thread?

[imdying]

I think we're doing well to get the amount of time RT is already investing in us :yes:

[Robert Taylor]

Is decreasing the preload able to achieve the same effect? Or should preload be set once and never touched again?

If the oil level is effectively too high it causes a semi hydraulic effect. If you reduce preload the front will ride lower in its stroke and get to the bottom of its stroke earlier. So no, it is not really a fix.

But it is all about combination, compromises and rider feel. And the perfect setup on one track can feel very average on another. Getting your spring sag and clickers set up by someone with external set up knowledge patently does not give you the perfect setting for all tracks / conditions. That is exactly why I maintain that raising the level of competitors set up knowledge is a better course of action. So setting choices can be more informed and questions more precise of those who can assist further. The very best riders are also those who are very prepared to learn chassis set up skills.

There are set up numbers for static and rider sag correlation, these are a guideline only and should not be regarded as absolute gospel. If you run numbers that are quite different and it reflects in better lap times then all well and good!

For example when we were setting up TTX36 rear on Sam Smiths R6 we were changing rear springs and setting up the rider sag only without even bothering to measure resultant free sag. The stopwatch was the absolute judge.

So......

Do we provide enough information so riders and their mechanics can at least do the set up basics, and then feel free to ask us better informed set up questions as required?

Or do we keep everyone totally in the dark?

Its fair that there needs to be some sort of charge for a little labour intensive set up work but I personally wouldnt feel happy charging a load of money for quickly twisting a few clickers, no matter the result. Balanced against that, there is a cost in getting to meetings, accomodation, meals and incidentals. Especially island to island! But if you are not totally on top of your game with intimate set up knowledge that will give a result, is a charge justified?

Id like everyones thoughts on where ''kiwi goodwill'' begins and ends??????

[HDTboy]

Personally from what I've seen, you offer exceptional aftersales service. I'm under the impression that most of what I have seen is built into the price you're selling the gear at. That makes your aftersales service very inexpensive.

I'm all for rider and team education, so long as people aren't trying to diagnose problems and then tell you (Robert) what is happening. If someone is at the point where they need to come to you, then they need to tell you the symptoms, and not how to fix the problem.

There is an old saying
We charge $40/hr
If you watch, it is $60/hr
If you help, it is $80/hr
If we are fixing your mistakes, it is $120/hr

[Robert Taylor]

Ok this is where I sound like a bit of a dingle-dangler ‘cause I can’t remember much of the details to make myself properly understood I’m sure but:
What was your opinion of the whole idea of using longer top out springs to affect the rebound near top of stroke?

There had been an article in ADB some while back where mr Hay over in Auss had been manufacturing longer springs specially treated (to counter the fact that they were past normal design parameters for a spring to not sack out when at steep angle with few coils).

This in the dirt world was supposed to be a new direction forward, I’m not sure if it took?

To appease those who will grizzle as this is largely a road based community a few Supersport teams were reputedly trialling this approach back in '00 but with limited appeal. As told 3rd hand.:mellow: To some extent the early R1 was slightly oddly set up as such but perhaps with different goals in mind of road holding on bumpy roads, somewhat unconvincingly.

Im not so sure on the dirt side with what Terry Hay was doing. He did make it sound as if he ''invented'' the concept but anyone who has pulled apart late 70s / early 80s RM forks will have evidenced very very long top out springs. Some people like what Hay has done, many dont and it hasnt taken the dirt bike world by storm.

In road racing we messed with top out springs right through the season in Bugdens, Shirriffs and Smiths bikes. One of the main preoccupations was to minimise especially the big bikes popping wheelies so readily, the object being to keep the front tyre as firmly planted as possible! There are other things that happen, the internal topout spring acts against the main spring, effectively lessening its rate, so it gives a little more compliance at the first stages of travel. Cartridges also effectively are subject to a little cavitation on ''stretch stroke'' so the top out spring helps to arrest the final part of re-extension so it doesnt violently top out. Dynamic control of the chassis geometry is also affected, some bikes need assistance in this respect

We had 20mm travel top out springs of varying rates and 40mm travel, also in varying rates. What we settled on has now been adopted by Ohlins in production.

Back to your dirt bikes perhaps one argument in favour of not using over long top out springs is that you want the bike to be able to responsively pop throttle induced wheelies to avoid nasty bumps, a common mx riding technique. Its all about the overall combination in the end event, there are many ways of skinning the cat. No one is right and no-one is wrong.

In our road racing cartridges we are currently using the longest catalogued springs, the rate in harmony with the selected main spring rate. Design / function may change in the future that dictates the need to use shorter top out springs. This sort of stuff goes round in circles!

[limbimtimwim]

Sharing of information improves society, the economy and competition.

I wrote a spiel about free software, but realized there was an better parallel.

If some choose not to share information, others will not share with them. Would the pure sciences like chemistry and physics be anywhere near where they are today if there was not open discussion and publication of work?

Surely the same goes for suspension setup.

[Robert Taylor]

Personally from what I've seen, you offer exceptional aftersales service. I'm under the impression that most of what I have seen is built into the price you're selling the gear at. That makes your aftersales service very inexpensive.

I'm all for rider and team education, so long as people aren't trying to diagnose problems and then tell you (Robert) what is happening. If someone is at the point where they need to come to you, then they need to tell you the symptoms, and not how to fix the problem.

There is an old saying
We charge $40/hr
If you watch, it is $60/hr
If you help, it is $80/hr
If we are fixing your mistakes, it is $120/hr

Thanks Gav,

Its probably a very debatable point that I have enough margin in the product, but being present at meetings and offering the service that I do always results in sales of product and service / repair work. This last weekend at Manfield was no exception. I guess I can justify this as advertising, feet on the ground style.

I havent been immune though from devious accusations ( and they know who they are ) to the effect ''hes only interested in helping the top riders'' Granted I spend a lot of time with the top guys but if anyone at all comes to me asking questions or wants a little basic set up help I am almost always able to oblige, even if it takes me a while to get to them.

Note that I have offered through this site suspension set up schools, just have to nail venue and appropriate date. I merely wish only to recover costs. If this helps to foster the sport further then it helps EVERYBODY.

My personal approach is to try and teach the rider why I am making the changes, not to keep them in the dark, adjust a few things and say ''there you go, some money please'' It matters not what the brand of bike or suspension is.

I started fettling with road race suspension back in 97 ( mx stuff preceding that ) and have learnt a hell of a lot. But I had no-one to lean on except distanced replies from Stockholm, not as effective as being on the spot. Perhaps I am too ethical, but I am averse about people paying for ''short sharp adjustments ''. An expert I would interpret as someone really on top of his game with a very deep understanding of his specialist product, not only externally, but INTERNALLY, and possessing all the appropriate brand dedicated equipment and formal factory approved training. Candidly, I am only just starting to feel on top of it, but then reality can often deal blows that bring you down to earth!

PARASITES...those that parrallell import, trading off the name and leaching into the fact it is you that has done the hard yards and spent the advertising dollars etc. Much less depth of understanding of the product. Perhaps there is a very strong argument that with respect to imports there is too little regulation in this country. Joe Bloggs can import certain numbers of product, piggybacking off other peoples promotion, then grab the money and run with little or no backup.

Infrastructure and operating costs are not inconsiderable for committed distributors who properly and fully back up their product.

For nearly 2 decades I worked with a character who had the demeanour of Saddam Hussein, his mood swings were instant and unpredictable. That prepped me to put up with those in this world with attitude disorders and the predisposal to throw their toys out of their cots with little warning. Perhaps I should have been paid danger money.....No one should have to put up with this and if the world at large was less tolerant of such personalities we'd be a better place!

Gav, your last paragraph is pertinent. I dont mind how anyone presents a set up issue to be solved, as long as it is reasoned and free of ego / mind games. Heck, you can learn new things off a very wide cross section of people. Everyone looks at things from different angles.

[Pussy]

Well, Robert, I for one am very appreciative of the work/advice/backup/research etc you have done for me. And my only riding fame is holding a lap record at Manfeild..... slowest lap ever on one of Brian Bernard's superbikes. I'm certain I'm speaking for Gassit Girl as well... you have done two very nice set ups on her previous SV650s. I guess it goes to show you are happy enough to look after Joe Average too.

[FROSTY]

Robert --Gwan take the piss.:gob:
YOU earned the right at Pearoa in 06 when you grabbed two spanners and came running to help me set up my rear Ohlins.
You earned my respect at Ruapuna when you again offered your assistance.
Im genuinely sorry I diddn't reward your efforts with better results.
Some people talk the talk --You my freind walk the walk.

[Robert Taylor]

Robert --Gwan take the piss.:gob:
YOU earned the right at Pearoa in 06 when you grabbed two spanners and came running to help me set up my rear Ohlins.
You earned my respect at Ruapuna when you again offered your assistance.
Im genuinely sorry I diddn't reward your efforts with better results.
Some people talk the talk --You my freind walk the walk.

Frosty, you probably would be faster than me! Ill stay with springs, clickers and shims.

[NordieBoy]

Robert --Gwan take the piss.:gob:
YOU earned the right at Pearoa in 06 when you grabbed two spanners and came running to help me set up my rear Ohlins.
You earned my respect at Ruapuna when you again offered your assistance.
Im genuinely sorry I diddn't reward your efforts with better results.
Some people talk the talk --You my freind walk the walk.

Now if he'd grabbed two spanners and a can of black spray paint, he'd have my respect too.
My camera is scarred for life, every shot I've taken since is tinged pink.

[FROSTY]

TOTALLY off subject but Im a superstitious bugger. Ive had owt but bad luck when I painted BLACK ICE Pink. He is now back to his rightful colour--BLACK

[NordieBoy]

Why couldn't you have done it earlier!
I loved that camera!

[White trash]

I havent been immune though from devious accusations ( and they know who they are ) to the effect ''hes only interested in helping the top riders''


This is the most laughable accusation I've yet come accross. For those not in the know, Mr Taylor and his sidekick Kerry spent the best part of two full days with me last weekend, me! Far from a "top rider".

During this time, they expertly diagnosed my very vague laymans terms and found the team an extra five seconds a lap just in basic setup.

If you run the products, all you have to do is ask folks. Simple.

[F5 Dave]

Yeah I'm starting to wonder about the installation of the Race Tech equipped (RGV) forks on my 500 project. When I bought the bike (from Aus) The Ohlins rear has a very light spring & had v.little preload but comp full hard, ride height in the chopper category. What's the chances of the fork kits being installed correctly? Well I'll find out when its going in a couple of months all going well.

Being opinionated is one thing, but opinionated with an open mind as RTs comments seem to indicate (the being brought back to earth by reality bit) is far more balanced.

Some of the comments whilst biased have made me rethink my opinions about importing vs gst etc. There needs to be a balance here too.
I did enjoy the letters in KR re the TZ vs BMS meth burning Ducs some years back, but that is probably too much of a tangent.

[Robert Taylor]

This is the most laughable accusation I've yet come accross. For those not in the know, Mr Taylor and his sidekick Kerry spent the best part of two full days with me last weekend, me! Far from a "top rider".

During this time, they expertly diagnosed my very vague laymans terms and found the team an extra five seconds a lap just in basic setup.

If you run the products, all you have to do is ask folks. Simple.

And you told me your name was Valentino! Seriously though, you applied yourself and rode like a top rider and I will follow your progress with interest. All credit to you and we found it an absolute pleasure to help you get the bike set up

[Robert Taylor]

Yeah I'm starting to wonder about the installation of the Race Tech equipped (RGV) forks on my 500 project. When I bought the bike (from Aus) The Ohlins rear has a very light spring & had v.little preload but comp full hard, ride height in the chopper category. What's the chances of the fork kits being installed correctly? Well I'll find out when its going in a couple of months all going well.

Being opinionated is one thing, but opinionated with an open mind as RTs comments seem to indicate (the being brought back to earth by reality bit) is far more balanced.

Some of the comments whilst biased have made me rethink my opinions about importing vs gst etc. There needs to be a balance here too.
I did enjoy the letters in KR re the TZ vs BMS meth burning Ducs some years back, but that is probably too much of a tangent.

Thanks Dave, it sounds as if the fitted spring on that rear shock is not correct for your personal stats. With respect to the front hard to tell without being on the spot. We can though digitally test the fork spring rate. Pm me with the numbers off the shock spring and your height and weight, any questions etc. Very often we have good condition used Ohlins springs and that can mean quite a saving.

I am a little opinionated ( ! ) but I think advancing years does mellow out ( some ) people in viewing things from more angles. Just dont get me onto politics!

There is an intersesting book just out by a NZ author ''I See Red'' by Judith Bell. A story of how The Warehouse at ''the eleventh hour'' cancelled an order with her husbands company, sending them bankrupt. An argument about how cheap imports and ''big box retailers'' are destroying NZ industry and in the end event our living standards.The previews indicate that it should be interesting reading.

[F5 Dave]

Thanks I'll get into it when the bike is up & running. The linkage is not std so this may affect things, but my bathroom scales (sorry they're not digital [kidding]) press & tape measure tell me the spring is ~5.45, std RGV is supposed to be 6.25 or thereabouts so should be somewhere near where I'm aiming. I should properly chart out the ratio over the swing. But I suspect I will be after a spring so will let you know.

I did a 'finance for engineers' type course & the wh used as an example of credit strong-arming reducing manufacturers to serfs & dodgy accounting practices to boot.

If you find a copy of Eric Schlosser Fast Food Nation {edit http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=yNFN1OpnkBkC&dq=fast+food+nation&pg=PP1&ots=l_lhsE8s-Z&sig=2KvI3Lnp3QI2vkIwyir-PTt59QI&prev=http://www.google.co.nz/search%3Fq%3Dfast%2Bfood%2Bnation%26ie%3Dutf-8%26oe%3Dutf-8%26aq%3Dt%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26client%3Dfirefox-a&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title#PPA3,M1]it is worth a read, not just to put you off fast food, but as an examination of how the industry has formed society & severely crippled traditional farming concerns, it is quite scary.

[Robert Taylor]

Thanks I'll get into it when the bike is up & running. The linkage is not std so this may affect things, but my bathroom scales (sorry they're not digital [kidding]) press & tape measure tell me the spring is ~5.45, std RGV is supposed to be 6.25 or thereabouts so should be somewhere near where I'm aiming. I should properly chart out the ratio over the swing. But I suspect I will be after a spring so will let you know.

I did a 'finance for engineers' type course & the wh used as an example of credit strong-arming reducing manufacturers to serfs & dodgy accounting practices to boot.

If you find a copy of Eric Schlosser Fast Food Nation {edit http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=yNFN1OpnkBkC&dq=fast+food+nation&pg=PP1&ots=l_lhsE8s-Z&sig=2KvI3Lnp3QI2vkIwyir-PTt59QI&prev=http://www.google.co.nz/search%3Fq%3Dfast%2Bfood%2Bnation%26ie%3Dutf-8%26oe%3Dutf-8%26aq%3Dt%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26client%3Dfirefox-a&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title#PPA3,M1]it is worth a read, not just to put you off fast food, but as an examination of how the industry has formed society & severely crippled traditional farming concerns, it is quite scary.

Thanks, the different linkage will have altered the motion ratio i.e how much the shock shaft moves for any given wheel movement. As I suspect that the different linkage is possibly moving the shock shaft more slowly that will definitely alter the springing requirement. But also the spring choice is very dependent on your personal stats. Damping is also shock shaft speed dependent and then by implication shock shaft speed ( for any given wheel upwards velocity )is also dependent on the motion ratio applied to it. Move it slower, it damps less. Move it faster, it damps more. So you may ultimately have ''issues'' there if the spring doesnt totally sort out the shock performance. If the clickers end up being at the extremities of range that is an ''in your face'' clue. The standard fitted spring rate on the standard Ohlins shock for the Gamma ( intended for and spec'd for the standard linkage with aggressive ratio and average 70 - 80 kg rider ) is rated at 5.4 newtons. So your bathroom scales and technique are pretty bloody good! The first digits printed on it will read 1093-11. A sag ratio check will predertimine by approximately how much you need to increase spring rate. Further, has the different linkage in effect moved the mounting points? Requiring perhaps that the shock needs lengthening.

Thanks for the reference to the reading material. It concerns me greatly that too many people dont look too far behind the facade of what is going on, and that the rug is slowly and systematically being pulled out from beneath us. Both the forces of ''contol freak'' communism ( re-badged in this country ) and unchecked capitalism have a hell of a lot to answer for. The sad thing is our children know no different.

[flame]

Well, i'm a 'not even average yet' rider.....and Robert and Kerry gave up a lot of their time helping my bike go round corners better last weekend too. AND.....offered help in the pits when not even asked for,(and I don't even have ohlins :shutup: ) BIG THANKS guys, your help and advice was blardy awesome!!:yes:

[F5 Dave]

Thanks for the info. I'm always suspicious of setup from other people's bikes. When I bought my YZF the comp was full max on (it was like getting kicked in the backside from a Storm trouper with Jackboots & particularly heavy socks), now while Steve was a big lad he should have known better, but then again it only takes a small kid in the parking lot (Ohh pretty dial at toddler height):yes:.

[Brian d marge]

For nearly 2 decades I worked with a character who had the demeanour of Saddam Hussein, his mood swings were instant and unpredictable. That prepped me to put up with those in this world with attitude disorders and the predisposal to throw their toys out of their cots with little warning. Perhaps I should have been paid danger money.....No one should have to put up with this and if the world at large was less tolerant of such personalities we'd be a better place!

Dont know how you did it. I also worked for such a person , It was hell. Granted I learnt a lot ,,, but his name was teapot ( both customers and I called him that ) as he was as mad as a march hare

I dont mind how anyone presents a set up issue to be solved, as long as it is reasoned and free of ego / mind games. Heck, you can learn new things off a very wide cross section of people. Everyone looks at things from different angles.


Wasnt till I came to Japan, and started working with the Japanese, that that TRUELY dissappeared , ie working as a team with No ego /mind games .. I cant really discribe it , ...its all about listening ,,,


It must be really difficult to make ends meet running a business in NZ ,,, I played around with a few numbers ,, couldnt see it happening ,,,

Stephen <!-- / message --><!-- controls -->

[Robert Taylor]

Well, i'm a 'not even average yet' rider.....and Robert and Kerry gave up a lot of their time helping my bike go round corners better last weekend too. AND.....offered help in the pits when not even asked for,(and I don't even have ohlins :shutup: ) BIG THANKS guys, your help and advice was blardy awesome!!:yes:

Actually, the important thing here is that you knew your bike wasnt set up and instead of ''trying to ride around it'' you came and asked for help. In fact, especially the clicker settings were so screwed up on that bike it had serious potential to spit you off.

This raises another interesting point, you asked ''how much to look at it?'' and I declined to take money because I knew it would be about 5 to 10 minutes work, tops. As I have intimated before my approach is to educate the people involved about why things are set up in certain ways. If spring preload needs adjusting etc I will get the team to do it and then come back to measure up etc. Twirling clickers is rather quick and easy.

Now if I had played the ''hardball capitalist'' ( instead of being the compassionate capitalist that I actually am, just ask all the riders of all shapes, sizes and attitudes I have helped over the years) Where was I?...If I had asked for say $50 of your hard earned dollars up front for 5 to 10 mins twisting clickers that would have been a blatant rip-off. You may have declined and then gone out and crashed your bike. Dont want that on my conscience if I knew your bike was badly setup.

A base level of set up education and emphasis on safety must over-ride cold hard commercial intersest.

[FROSTY]

Robert,I'd like to suggest to you that offering that service would be something people would be prepared to pay for.
Perhaps being available for one person per race class per meeting at a charge of $40 each would be money well worth spending.
I don't see it as capitolism---we are paying you to be there to help us
I for one would be happy -or should i say would have been happpy (given that Shaun stepped up and did it) to pay that

[Robert Taylor]

Robert,I'd like to suggest to you that offering that service would be something people would be prepared to pay for.
Perhaps being available for one person per race class per meeting at a charge of $40 each would be money well worth spending.
I don't see it as capitolism---we are paying you to be there to help us
I for one would be happy -or should i say would have been happpy (given that Shaun stepped up and did it) to pay that

Do you then want to run some sort of poll and invite comments to see what people largely think about this and what they would actually like to see?

[FROSTY]

tell ya what Robert Ill put money where mouth is--You front up at The KB track day in NOVEMBER and I will pay your fee to be there--IN TOTAL UP FRONT.
ANY kbers wanting suspension setup work done on the day can pay you at the $40.00 I suggested. If it washes up under your fee Ill cop the balance. If its MORE then you owe me a beer --I drink the dark stuff from Ireland so as ya know what to buy me

[boomer]

Robert.. can I be first in the queue to have some of your precious time!

[Robert Taylor]

tell ya what Robert Ill put money where mouth is--You front up at The KB track day in NOVEMBER and I will pay your fee to be there--IN TOTAL UP FRONT.
ANY kbers wanting suspension setup work done on the day can pay you at the $40.00 I suggested. If it washes up under your fee Ill cop the balance. If its MORE then you owe me a beer --I drink the dark stuff from Ireland so as ya know what to buy me

I will be in Italy on that very day but some alternatives may be able to be worked out. I still think some set up schools away from a track would provide much much more initial value and understanding. More people will benefit much more quickly and to a degree would be able to pass this knowledge on to a wider spectrum of riders.

I used to drink Guinness ( in the UK ) but coffee is now more relevant!

[boomer]

I will be in Italy on that very day but some alternatives may be able to be worked out. I still think some set up schools away from a track would provide much much more initial value and understanding. More people will benefit much more quickly and to a degree would be able to pass this knowledge on to a wider spectrum of riders.

I used to drink Guinness ( in the UK ) but coffee is now more relevant!

agreed on both points.. i do so much miss my Guiness; and somewhere to come for a service/schooling like that would be awesome.. and well received

[Kickaha]

Perhaps being available for one person per race class per meeting at a charge of $40 each would be money well worth spending.

And everyone else misses out?

[Clivoris]

I am keen for a suspension workshop.

[Skunk]

How does coro loop sound for a schooling son?
Too far north. 'Takas first then Takaka Hill.

[FROSTY]

And everyone else misses out?
I don't know how many people he could deal with in one day

[HDTboy]

I will be in Italy on that very day but some alternatives may be able to be worked out. I still think some set up schools away from a track would provide much much more initial value and understanding. More people will benefit much more quickly and to a degree would be able to pass this knowledge on to a wider spectrum of riders.

In order to gain practical knowledge, we need the theoretical knowledge to lay the foundations. This thread has been extremely helpful, and entertaining. But I for one would far prefer to have a classroom type situation. I believe Ryan was trying to organise something?

[RiderInBlack]

I am keen for a suspension workshop.Ditto. Really don't know sweet FA about setting my bike up right and would be kean ta learn (even if it means in the long run I part with hard cash to get someone who does know ta do it).

[boomer]

How does coro loop sound for a schooling son?

i'm up for that pops!

[Deano]

I don't know how many people he could deal with in one day

But the more the monier eh Frosty, oh - I mean merrier !!:innocent:

[Robert Taylor]

In order to gain practical knowledge, we need the theoretical knowledge to lay the foundations. This thread has been extremely helpful, and entertaining. But I for one would far prefer to have a classroom type situation. I believe Ryan was trying to organise something?

These comments make perfect sense. One workshop in Auckland. Then one in Wellington on say a Saturday, fly to Chch Sunday and conduct one there. ( I merely need to recover costs and doing it this way puts me on a main flight route ) Maximum of 20 per workshop. Does that make sense ?

Frosty, this kind of answers your pm. Ryan is trying to organise one in Auckland, a matter of nailing the date.

[FROSTY]

Robert--How about we do it through AMCC in their clubrooms on a saturday

[Robert Taylor]

Robert--How about we do it through AMCC in their clubrooms on a saturday

Speak to Ryan first, he has something already rather more on the go and to that end I dont want to ''cut his lunch'' as such

[FROSTY]

Who is Ryan??

[HDTboy]

Cowpoos .

[imdying]

I'd like to go to something like that, but I'd feel like a right twat taking a place away from a racer that would actually use it. Make sure you have a 'cancellation' list that a pleb like me could fill if available.

[Skunk]

I'd like to go to something like that, but I'd feel like a right twat taking a place away from a racer that would actually use it. Make sure you have a 'cancellation' list that a pleb like me could fill if available.
I was thinking the same thing about myself. Love learning this stuff - no 'real' use for it.

[Robert Taylor]

I'd like to go to something like that, but I'd feel like a right twat taking a place away from a racer that would actually use it. Make sure you have a 'cancellation' list that a pleb like me could fill if available.

Racers and road riders, same basic principles but slightly different emphasis. The main thing is to have interested people willing to learn.

[Sanx]

Definitely be in for a place at the Auckland workshop. Would love to get a better understanding of this mythical suspension thing.

[Robert Taylor]

Definitely be in for a place at the Auckland workshop. Would love to get a better understanding of this mythical suspension thing.

Its not that mythical! I am saying that riders/ mechs should have a better base understanding so that they shouldnt have to always seek out a capable and sincere suspension engineer for the most basic set up.

There are those who would like people to be almost totally in the dark, I think that is a mentality that is open to flagrant profiteering. Whilst a charge is appropriate for any detailed time consuming external set up work the amount should be appropriate and fair.

Two things I hate with a vengeance are people being ripped off and also the shoddy workmanship that I commonly come across. It is too easy for anyone in this country to set themselves up as a ''specialist'' when the truth all too often is that their equipment is worse than minimalist, as is their background and product knowledge / experience.

The bar needs lifting and MNZ share in that opinion.

[warewolf]

Robert, appreciated the commentary so far...as always.

My KTM 640 Adventure carries 20kg of fuel (on a 158kg half-dry bike) and there is a dramatic difference in suspension performance between full and nearly-empty tanks. On a full tank, it gets harsh/choppy; IIRC a couple of clicks extra rebound damping on a full tank helps smooth things out again. There are no (external) spring preload adjusters, but these can probably be retrofitted from other similar forks.

The Triumph Trophy has a similar sized tank. Although there is a noticeable difference between full and empty - specifically the bike feels more planted with a full tank - it doesn't develop the harshness like the Adventure. I suspect this is for two reasons: firstly the Trophy is much heavier at around 220kg+ dry so the fuel load is a much smaller percentage of the bike's mass, and secondly the front suspension is firmer with shorter travel.

Could you explain (briefly) the effect on the suspension between heavy and light fuel loads, please? Also, which direction the compression and rebound clickers should be tweaked to compensate - if it is consistent - otherwise why it is not? :D

My plan is to aim for good settings for say 1/4 and 3/4 tank-fulls, swapping between the two as needed. Previously I'd always tuned for a half-tank, but having two settings for the Adventure may be advantageous. At 500km per tank, stopping to tweak the clickers would take the place of fuel stops as an excuse for a stretch.

TIA!

Oh and PS I would travel to CHC to do a suspension workshop.

[F5 Dave]

Why the answer is simple. Have your manservant ride the 640 for the first 1/3 of a tank &/or until the going gets a bit rough then swap out the Trophy for the KTOOM.:scooter:

I'd be keen on a wgtn class if there is the numbers.

[Robert Taylor]

Robert, appreciated the commentary so far...as always.

My KTM 640 Adventure carries 20kg of fuel (on a 158kg half-dry bike) and there is a dramatic difference in suspension performance between full and nearly-empty tanks. On a full tank, it gets harsh/choppy; IIRC a couple of clicks extra rebound damping on a full tank helps smooth things out again. There are no (external) spring preload adjusters, but these can probably be retrofitted from other similar forks.

The Triumph Trophy has a similar sized tank. Although there is a noticeable difference between full and empty - specifically the bike feels more planted with a full tank - it doesn't develop the harshness like the Adventure. I suspect this is for two reasons: firstly the Trophy is much heavier at around 220kg+ dry so the fuel load is a much smaller percentage of the bike's mass, and secondly the front suspension is firmer with shorter travel.

Could you explain (briefly) the effect on the suspension between heavy and light fuel loads, please? Also, which direction the compression and rebound clickers should be tweaked to compensate - if it is consistent - otherwise why it is not? :D

My plan is to aim for good settings for say 1/4 and 3/4 tank-fulls, swapping between the two as needed. Previously I'd always tuned for a half-tank, but having two settings for the Adventure may be advantageous. At 500km per tank, stopping to tweak the clickers would take the place of fuel stops as an excuse for a stretch.

TIA!

Oh and PS I would travel to CHC to do a suspension workshop.

Okay, forgive the way I am describing this, as I am so busy with Ohlins suspension I have largely been ''spared'' from working with WP, if that is what is fitted to it? Irrespective, adventure bikes tend to be softly sprung. When you have a full fuel load it is precompressing especially the front end a little further and dynamically it is riding lower. That means that especially under brakes the forks are riding lower in their travel otherwise earlier, in the compressed part of main spring and also secondary internal air spring effect.

Because its soft it feels hard! What you need to do is to fit slightly firmer fork springs which will allow the bike to ride higher in its stroke and also precompressing those very springs less. It will actually feel plusher but will also resist blowing through its stroke too readily. If you can graft on adjustable preload caps then all the better. The compression damping could be a little firmer and the rebound needs to be just fast enough that there is the faintest hint of overshoot when it returns freely after a static push. Do resist the temptation to tie the bike down with ''lethargic'' rebound speed, that is the biggest mistake everyone makes and also a big cause of crashes.

Similiar changes may need to be effected to the rear to keep the supension action balanced and therefore free of ''seesaw '' motion.

[Robert Taylor]

Okay, forgive the way I am describing this, as I am so busy with Ohlins suspension I have largely been ''spared'' from working with WP, if that is what is fitted to it? Irrespective, adventure bikes tend to be softly sprung. When you have a full fuel load it is precompressing especially the front end a little further and dynamically it is riding lower. That means that especially under brakes the forks are riding lower in their travel otherwise earlier, in the compressed part of main spring and also secondary internal air spring effect.

Because its soft it feels hard! What you need to do is to fit slightly firmer fork springs which will allow the bike to ride higher in its stroke and also precompressing those very springs less. It will actually feel plusher but will also resist blowing through its stroke too readily. If you can graft on adjustable preload caps then all the better. The compression damping could be a little firmer and the rebound needs to be just fast enough that there is the faintest hint of overshoot when it returns freely after a static push. Do resist the temptation to tie the bike down with ''lethargic'' rebound speed, that is the biggest mistake everyone makes and also a big cause of crashes.

Similiar changes may need to be effected to the rear to keep the supension action balanced and therefore free of ''seesaw '' motion.

A very learned colleague correctly pointed out that my comment about increasing compression damping was a little misleading. It needs a slight increase in low speed compression damping to help hold the bike up in the more compliant part of its stroke. ( That, allied with the spring rate increase I suggested ) BUT, it possibly needs a complimentary reduction in high speed compression damping. When the fuel load is increased the extra weight will make the forks move at higher velocity, especially under brakes. Damping force increases with velocity, if as is possible the high speed compression damping is too progressive then that will in part contribute to the harshness you feel.

More spring and low speed damping force to arrest the train before it becomes runaway and then softer high speed calibration so it retains compliance at the higher velocities. Its all about combinations. Someone abundantly familiar with WP that has worked with this model may be able to offer a comprehensively tested / verified mod.

[warewolf]

Thanks Robert, sorry for the delay in responding. I've been hoping to get some actual sag measurements... not yet, but soon!


Okay, forgive the way I am describing this, as I am so busy with Ohlins suspension I have largely been ''spared'' from working with WP, if that is what is fitted to it? Irrespective, adventure bikes tend to be softly sprung.You're forgiven, yes it has WP, 4.6N/mm springs. In lieu of actual measurements I've crunched some numbers for my own education. There are a couple of fudge factors in there, such as percentage weight bias to the front, and allowance for the steering rake vs gravity vectors.

The fudged numbers show the rider sag with empty tank to be 32% of travel, which explains why it works better with a low fuel load. A full tank only adds 7.1mm to the front sag, 35% travel. This is less difference than "gut feel" suggests. So in theory it is undersprung for a full tank, marginal for empty. We will see what the actual measurements say. I'll talk to your man in time.

Of course it is impractical to change springs when the fuel load changes on a touring bike, adventure being off-road touring. So it's going to be sub-optimal at some load or other. Hence my question, which you've answered, thanks.


the rebound needs to be just fast enough that there is the faintest hint of overshoot when it returns freely after a static push. Do resist the temptation to tie the bike down with ''lethargic'' rebound speed, that is the biggest mistake everyone makes and also a big cause of crashes.With the road bike, I tend to back out the rebound until the bike wallows or porpoises, then just eliminate that (or be one click on the soft side).

Re: the 200EXC we wrote about, I checked it today. Umm, I did a bad thing: the shock rebound clicker was fully closed. I must've wound it all the way in to count out from zero, and forgotten to take it back out...oops! A static push took maybe 2 seconds to return. KR suggest pos 14, that's not too bad, maybe 0.5s return time with no overshoot. As a test, I wound it fully out (to pos 18?) and it is hardly any faster, and still no overshoot. I'm gonna have to talk to your man about this shock!

[Drew]

Yea it hurt.

I went for a hoon today, on a friends ZXR400, (It's got blown fork seals, and what feels like no shock at all in the rear), and gave my younger brother, and a very competent mate the learn over the Rimutaka hill. Dont get me wrong, it was hardly race pace, or anywhere near it, but it got me wondering...

The front forks diving to the end of thier travell under brakes, decreases the fork rake, making the stearing quicker, then as you pitch the bike over, the bike levels off, but not completely, which still leaves you with more feel, then on the exit they extend fully, giving a far less twitchy bike than when they are steep. Also, the freedom of movement allows more traction than a stiff shock. So how are all these things bad?

This is not a piss take, to my mind these things all make sense, but I FULLY enjoy the benefits of a decent damoing system, and I'm quicker with them than without, I just want to know why.

[Robert Taylor]

Yea it hurt.

I went for a hoon today, on a friends ZXR400, (It's got blown fork seals, and what feels like no shock at all in the rear), and gave my younger brother, and a very competent mate the learn over the Rimutaka hill. Dont get me wrong, it was hardly race pace, or anywhere near it, but it got me wondering...

The front forks diving to the end of thier travell under brakes, decreases the fork rake, making the stearing quicker, then as you pitch the bike over, the bike levels off, but not completely, which still leaves you with more feel, then on the exit they extend fully, giving a far less twitchy bike than when they are steep. Also, the freedom of movement allows more traction than a stiff shock. So how are all these things bad?

This is not a piss take, to my mind these things all make sense, but I FULLY enjoy the benefits of a decent damoing system, and I'm quicker with them than without, I just want to know why.

Attend a forthcoming suspension set up seminar and ask me. I dont have the inclination to type 10,000 words of text with 2 fingers!

[Drew]

Attend a forthcoming suspension set up seminar and ask me. I dont have the inclination to type 10,000 words of text with 2 fingers!

Fair enough, with said two fingers, tell me if it's a dumb question though, I'd rather not ask it in public where people can SEE me go bright red as I proclaim myself an idiot.

[Robert Taylor]

Fair enough, with said two fingers, tell me if it's a dumb question though, I'd rather not ask it in public where people can SEE me go bright red as I proclaim myself an idiot.

All questions are good questions, I think I can fairly say that I have an accomodating and approachable demeanour and will give honest answers to honest questions, from my own experience and accumulation of knowledge that has been derived from working with lots of riders, and ongoing dialogue with the engineers at Ohlins in Sweden.

All of who at all levels have something useful to say.

[roogazza]

The front forks diving to the end of thier travell under brakes, decreases the fork rake, making the stearing quicker, then as you pitch the bike over, the bike levels off, but not completely, which still leaves you with more feel, then on the exit they extend fully, giving a far less twitchy bike than when they are steep. Also, the freedom of movement allows more traction than a stiff shock. So how are all these things bad?

Eureka ! sounds just like the basics of how a bike works to me ? Now , we have to control all those functions ! Gaz.

[Drew]

Eureka ! sounds just like the basics of how a bike works to me ? Now , we have to control all those functions ! Gaz.

My point was it makes sense to me, that the softer the better, not weather I think the bike is doing is what's actually happening. But the sarcasm was well funny:yes:

[Robert Taylor]

My point was it makes sense to me, that the softer the better, not weather I think the bike is doing is what's actually happening. But the sarcasm was well funny:yes:

Its actually a balance between compliance and grip. It should not be so soft that there is a''disconnected'' feel etc. Suspension SHOULD move, but controllably. It is possible to have both compliance and grip.

[Drew]

Its actually a balance between compliance and grip. It should not be so soft that there is a''disconnected'' feel etc. Suspension SHOULD move, but controllably. It is possible to have both compliance and grip.

Yep, I get that too, we'll continue with the extended answer to why, at one of the seminars.

[Paul in NZ]

Well.... I've put spectro 20w oil in the front, got the tyre pressure about right and I plan to back off the rear shock on the 88 FZR400 a little more from it's current hard as it goes thunk thunk status... What else (if anything) can affordably be done to improve these bikes suspension. Currently the engine rather easliy overcomes it's suspension and since it will probably be purchased by an inexperienced rider I want to do my best to make sure it's as good as it can be without going into bankruptcy...

[Robert Taylor]

Well.... I've put spectro 20w oil in the front, got the tyre pressure about right and I plan to back off the rear shock on the 88 FZR400 a little more from it's current hard as it goes thunk thunk status... What else (if anything) can affordably be done to improve these bikes suspension. Currently the engine rather easliy overcomes it's suspension and since it will probably be purchased by an inexperienced rider I want to do my best to make sure it's as good as it can be without going into bankruptcy...

Paul, thats pretty much all you can do without spending money. At both ends the weight ( and to a degree height ) of the rider is going to determine whether the fitted springing is ''livable'' or way off the mark. Its great you mention ''engine overcoming the suspension'' Torque induced squat is always one of the factors we have to contend with, especially on the litre class bikes.

The rear shock has fairly rudimentary internal valving, it could be improved but it inevitably costs money as a full strip is neccessary. Squat control is something that involves playing with shimming, more so than springing. There is always a danger of overspringing and creating other issues rather than dealing with the valving. A few years back Andrew Stroud was having a squat problem coming off one of the turns at Invercargill, we didnt touch the spring or the clickers, we lifted the lid on the shock and altered internal shimming a little bit. Job done, and in deference to a reference elsewhere this works just as well for ''rockstars'' as it does for everyday riders ( who provide most of my bread and butter! )

The big achilles heel of damper rod forks is you have to run quite thick viscosity oil to control rebound stroke. ( Note that emulators only really address compression stroke deficiencies ) Whilst there is very often a rebound control hole drilled in the damper rod the awful truth is there is a lot of ''loosely toleranced'' bleed past the piston ring, around the check plate washer inside the fork tube and in other ''clearanced areas. This neccessitates a thick oil. Unfortunately these thick oils are more sensitive to the atmospheric temperature of the day, and forks run at that temp or slightly below. This can often mean that on a cold frosty morning the forks are very ''lethargic'', especially in rebound. But in the middle of the day when the sun is out and temperatures in double digits the fork action is a lot faster.

Summer to winter does require a viscosity change, and be aware that many of the budget fork oils have a narrower range of compatibility with temperature change.

SV / ER650 pilots please take note! Hope this all helps....

[Paul in NZ]

Thanks for that...

Initially i thought it was the front that was terrible (well it is but..) but I think the rear is over sprung and under damped which makes the front feel worse than it is!

So - can a shock from a 1988 FZR400 actually be rebuilt??? If so - what would it cost and would it be worth the effort??

The front end is tricky - it's not bad if the road is smooth but if it hits a bump mid corner - look out! (I've only done 150km on it so this is just an initial observation) Given that most FZR400's end up on the track, there MUST be some mods to be done? I know the SP model has a more sophisticated set up...

Its quite interesting really - one day I'd like to try and fit modern internals to some older forks - my experience from my Moto Guzzi tells me a few minor mods can make a big difference..

Either way I need to sort the fueling first and try to get the bike right - it's got all the elements of a fun bike - modest weight and power in and exciting chassis but its got to be done on a budget.... ;-)

[F5 Dave]

Jap imports are usually undersprung. With your Manly proportions it would be interesting to see where the bike is sitting under usual riding conditions.
Wrapping a cable tie around the forkleg (they usually never get full stroke showing) & sliding the bump rubber up on the shock (may require a cable tie around it if it isn't very tight, then go for a sedate ride not hitting large bumps or braking heavily. This should tell you if you are flattening it & bouncing off the bumpstops. [mental picture of a Walrus humping a seal pup- arrrgh!]

Also with 'stiff' rear ends it is worth propping the back up & either removing of undoing the rear shock to see how well the swingarm moves unhindered. I'm sure more than one story will emerge with people trying to tune this out.

[Paul in NZ]

Thanks Dave - thats very good advice... It will give me a chance to grease all the linkages and other assorted things down there as well - Oh goody - more laying about on concrete floors.. (sigh)

I guess it's not a huge job?? I mean at least not a huge job for a walrus?

[F5 Dave]

haha sorry Paul, you know what I mean though, those 400s are small.

Yeah I'd try not to open the can of worms further than you have to. Linkages can get quite costly to rebuild. I'd just check to see that it doesn't feel tooooo bad.

As far as single shock systems go while the KTM approach has its disadvantages (& I'm sure RT would have comments bordering on derogatory) the more I have to do with the maintenance of linkages, esp on dirtbikes, the more I'm given in a dark moment to wonder if it really isn't worth the loss of performance to trade to the ease of maintenance (the KTM is direct mount to SW).

[Paul in NZ]

Hmmm Walrus... Wadda ya thunk? Should I grow one o dem american chopper paul senior mostaches? Not sure Vicki would like it much..

[Robert Taylor]

haha sorry Paul, you know what I mean though, those 400s are small.

Yeah I'd try not to open the can of worms further than you have to. Linkages can get quite costly to rebuild. I'd just check to see that it doesn't feel tooooo bad.

As far as single shock systems go while the KTM approach has its disadvantages (& I'm sure RT would have comments bordering on derogatory) the more I have to do with the maintenance of linkages, esp on dirtbikes, the more I'm given in a dark moment to wonder if it really isn't worth the loss of performance to trade to the ease of maintenance (the KTM is direct mount to SW).

Sorry to dissapoint, the loss of a linkage transfers the complication into the insides of the rear shock. In terms of top level road race, linkage systems are very much in vogue, despite the external complication. Maybe another day I will elaborate. But also, if the linkless system is such a great leap forward why havent all the other manufacturers of MX bikes followed suit? I think thats a fair question without any political sentiment.

Paul, after deciding whether the linkages are servicable a full measure up will determine if the spring rates are ''in the window'' or otherwise for you.

If you are going to be at Manfield Friday / Saturday I will be happy to measure it for you. There is no charge for this work.

In the front it is also blowing through its stroke hydraulically. If you speak to anyone of the now hundreds of people we have supplied and fitted emulators to they will tell you that this is a great bang for buck mod.

The shock would indeed be servicable and modifiable ( within the limitations of stock ) but I would need to determine first if there is a spring rate issue and if it is a model that has ''checkplate'' damping rather than proper shim stacks.

[Cajun]

I have an interesting question for you Robert,

How often should a ohlins rear shock be serviced?
How would you know it should be serviced?

[White trash]

According to the TTX36 Superdooper owners manual, every 10 hours if racing or 30,000km street use.

[Paul in NZ]

edit

Paul, after deciding whether the linkages are servicable a full measure up will determine if the spring rates are ''in the window'' or otherwise for you.

edit

.

Excellent info thanks... I can't thank you enough for being so helpful. What a wonderful resource KB is eh?

The PLAN (constantly under review) is to make sure all the effort in getting the rolling heap this far is not wasted by wrecking the engine through over rich fueling (a better than even chance) - that means a dyno session which destroys my rebuild budget BUT will finish off the great unknown... and then - it's KB ride unveiling....

Then - I'll start down the suspension track if time, money and my loverly wife allow ... um darling.. sweetie....

[Paul in NZ]

According to the TTX36 Superdooper owners manual, every 10 hours if racing or 30,000km street use.


Or 10 mins of WT use...

[White trash]

Or 10 mins of WT use...
Nah, I'm pretty soft on rear shocks mate. Fork seals seem to take a pounding for some reason.......

[Drew]

Nah, I'm pretty soft on rear shocks mate. Fork seals seem to take a pounding for some reason.......

Leavin the front wheel on the ground seems to be keeping mine intact bro.

Stunt bike is pretty much built on that note, any advice on wether or not to have some expensive bouncy bits in it?

The cheapest rear shock I have found is a Hagen, and although I'm sure it wont be anywhere near as good as an Ohlins, it aint a race bike, it just needs a moderate damping affect that I can tune a tad for one wheel stability all below 50kph

[Robert Taylor]

According to the TTX36 Superdooper owners manual, every 10 hours if racing or 30,000km street use.

Thats pretty much correct, for NZ conditions realistically once per annum. BUT beware of imitations! Not everyone that services shocks is authorised to service Ohlins. Irrespective of lines that may be spun there are a few specific precautions and techniques when servicing. I have a number of people around the country who I trust implicitly to do this work.

[Cajun]

Cool thanks Robert/Jimmy.

On average how long would you think a ohlins shock would last, if it was serviced regularlly?

[TDC]

Cool thanks Robert/Jimmy.

On average how long would you think a ohlins shock would last, if it was serviced regularlly?

Because ALL of the parts are available there is no limit to the life of the shock. But having said that with regular servicing that usually just involves normal service parts (seals, fluids, piston rings, and the likes) several hundred thousand K's would not be stretch at all.

[slowpoke]

According to the TTX36 Superdooper owners manual, every 10 hours if racing or 30,000km street use.

Hmmm, I would have thought that 30,000km's of bumpy, shitty NZ roads would be way more abusive than 10 hours of hooning around a relatively smooth race track.......but maybe it's more to do with the different performance expectations related to the different applications.

My "problem" now is my bike feels great! The poor old thing has been confined to barracks for a few months now as several engine woes have been sorted out. I've just gotten it back so I went through a basic suspension setting exercise (set sag, tweaked damping) and the thing feels pretty bloody good. As a point of interest the info supplied here was very helpful, with a reduction in rebound damping giving a much more supple feel to the suspension.

Working away from home the bike only does a few thousand klicks a year but I know that the suspension has done way more than 10 hours race use. (before ya start, I know I'm slow so it doesn't count as racing but the guy who had it before me was quick, orright? lol) So, do I get everything serviced and be forced to go through the exercise of finding a comparative sweet spot again? Does it only feel good now because it was shite before? Will it feel noticeably better after a service?

I know it's a lot of questions but I'm stuck offshore with no alcohol to help me answer them.....

[cowpoos]

my bike feels great!

I was sure that you didn't own the mighty R1 race bike???

[slowpoke]

I was sure that you didn't own the mighty R1 race bike???

Orright, orright, technically speaking it's my missus bike....or are you referring to a rather animated conversation I had with my bank manager last week?

[bimotabob]

HI Robert

I know how much you hate it when someone violates suspension and leaves it dangerous - this is what happened to a mate recently:

He was complaining that the front responded badly and since one of his seals was leaking prematurely we disassembled the fork and found the threaded rod that screws into the top fork cover had dropped out so that fork had no dampening.
We suspect someone has had the springs out before and not tightened the lock nut.
It turns out the other side was the same but we had changed that fork already as the chrome had worn through and my mate had got another pair.

It now handles a lot better with 100% instead of 50%

We also put in genuine seals this time and they haven't leaked like the athena ones we fitted earlier (and they were Japanese made)

- This bike didn't have the long tiny rods slid inside it operated by the top rebound screw like my last bike with KYB USD forks, how does the top screw change the dampening rebound rate? (an air bleed??) We did ask a bike mechanic and he said they should be there but both sets we have no not have them.


I'm a firm believer that buying a safe 2nd hand bike is like a lucky dip.
In your words Robert It's that "kiwi can do" mentality rearing it's head again.

[Robert Taylor]

Hmmm, I would have thought that 30,000km's of bumpy, shitty NZ roads would be way more abusive than 10 hours of hooning around a relatively smooth race track.......but maybe it's more to do with the different performance expectations related to the different applications.

My "problem" now is my bike feels great! The poor old thing has been confined to barracks for a few months now as several engine woes have been sorted out. I've just gotten it back so I went through a basic suspension setting exercise (set sag, tweaked damping) and the thing feels pretty bloody good. As a point of interest the info supplied here was very helpful, with a reduction in rebound damping giving a much more supple feel to the suspension.

Working away from home the bike only does a few thousand klicks a year but I know that the suspension has done way more than 10 hours race use. (before ya start, I know I'm slow so it doesn't count as racing but the guy who had it before me was quick, orright? lol) So, do I get everything serviced and be forced to go through the exercise of finding a comparative sweet spot again? Does it only feel good now because it was shite before? Will it feel noticeably better after a service?

I know it's a lot of questions but I'm stuck offshore with no alcohol to help me answer them.....

Swings and roundabouts. For example a motocross shock undergoes approximately 17,000 compression cycles every lap on a typical motocross track. And for peak performance should get serviced every 10 hours. The right rear shock in the local Toyota Racing Series cars runs approx 15 degrees higher than the left rear because it is right near the muffler. Its temperature will peak into 3 figures and the oil capacity in these shocks is less than 200mls. Service every season.

A shock with very stiff damping calibration that still uses a lot of stroke will run a lot hotter than a softly valved shock and will wear out its oil faster.

A few years back we built a heavy duty shock for an ex US Army Colonel who landed on our doorstep. He took his BMW across rough roads through India, Russia, all over the place. Last I heard from him was 2 years ago, he had done over 80,000 miles and hadnt had it serviced. But I dont reccommend such intervals! Degradation is much slower in a ''seperating gas piston'' shock with high quality materials and precise tolerancing. As opposed to an oem mass produced gas permeable bladder shock with lees exact tolerancing etc.

If the spring preload and the clickers are restored to their current setting ( by the authorised technician ) then the performance should be essentially similiar, allowing for fresh oil.

If you get it serviced by an ''imitator'' ( and there are too many of those ) it is likely to

1) Have the gas piston position set incorrectly leading to too much end of stroke gas pressure rise. Also incorrect gas pressure.

2) Inappropriate and cheaper oil of the incorrect centistroke rating ( I dont even look at sae ratings / weight as it is almost total bu.....t ) and flow characteristics at low and higher temperature extremes. Shorter life.

3) Key wear parts ( that are actually inexpensive ) not replaced. O rings from the local engineering supply shop that are not actually exactly the correct size and very often are charged at higher than Ohlins retail price!

4) Not privy to the special precautions and specific areas to check that I inform my service agents about, who are prepared to invest in the right equipment and service parts inventory. Inattention to detail. Every authorised Ohlins service agent cross references the shock to a spec card, specifically for it. Inter-communication is totally transparent

5) An expensive job because they took longer than someone specifically trained OR a cheap job because they cut corners that shouldnt be cut.

Someone in another post said I dont suffer fools, what I dont suffer is poor workmanship and MISREPRESENTATION. Is there anything wrong with that?

I dont have the capacity at present to service this shock myself, but if you can pm me I will direct you.

[TDC]

4) Not privy to the special precautions and specific areas to check that I inform my service agents about, who are prepared to invest in the right equipment and service parts inventory. Inattention to detail. Every authorised Ohlins service agent cross references the shock to a spec card, specifically for it. Inter-communication is totally transparent

5) An expensive job because they took longer than someone specifically trained OR a cheap job because they cut corners that shouldnt be cut.

Someone in another post said I dont suffer fools, what I dont suffer is poor workmanship and MISREPRESENTATION. Is there anything wrong with that?


A while ago I was talking to a guy running an Öhlins rear shock, his comments worried me a bit when he said that it was quite good but wasn't very reliable as the shaft seal needed frequent replacement. After a bit more discussion I learned that the shaft seal lasted about 5 - 6K's before leaking again.

I offered to service the shock and tendered a price for the same, he declined pointing out that I was twice the price of where he was getting the work done. I offered to put in writing on the invoice that if the shaft seal leaked again within 20k's I would replace it at no charge, including removal and refitting to the bike, eventually I got his business.

When I dismantled the shock I found the shaft seal was not the genuine Öhlins part (a viton quad ring) but a buna 'o' ring that can be purchased from any engineering shop (not even the right size!) With the over sized 'o'ring fitted shaft friction was huge with a worn out seal I can only guess how it must have been when first assembled. Worse there is a nylon 66 spacer that the shaft seal buts up against, the replacement "seal" was fitted on the wrong side of this spacer! The reason that the seal had probably failed in the first place is that the shaft dust seal had worn out. The oil was the wrong viscosity, and to compensate some shims had been removed to allow for the wrong oil that was too thick.

After returning the shock back to factory specifications (shims) from the spec card and fitting the correct shaft seal (in the correct place), fitting a new dust seal (not available to non Öhlins agents) cleaning out the oil which was quite a job as it had reacted with the remainder of the Öhlins oil and formed a difficult to remove very tenacious white sludge on absolutely everything, mandating a complete strip and painstaking clean of everything, and replacing all of the seals as they had been attacked by the white sludge and filling with the correct quantity of the correct oil, the shock was finally as it should be!

When fitted to the bike and adjusted the customer came to pick the bike up. I explained to him about the cost overruns over the estimate and the reasons for the same, I provided him with digital images of the shock internals before and after as well as a sample of the white sludge on a shim that I replaced rather than attempted to clean.

He was not pleased about the bill and reminded me that he would be back soon for the free shaft seal because he put lots of miles on the bike with all his commuting.

Two days later he called up saying the shock worked just like it did when he purchased the bike with an Öhlins shock already fitted, he had calmed down a bit. He then told of how he had been told by the other person that worked on the shock that the Öhlins shock wears out just as fast as a stock shock and thats why it would be different once rebuilt. This was simply not true and an obvious excuse by the other party to knowingly cover up the deficiencies in their work!

Now the bike is approaching 20k's on the last shock rebuild (detailed above) and will be back for service soon (within the next 3 months), and he has not been able to collect on a single one of his free shaft seal replacements, as they have simply not been needed.

So was correct servicing twice the price of the lower cost alternative, sure if you take a single item view of the world. If you look at the long tern view it was half the price of the low cost option.

All too often people know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Cheap jobs or poor workmanship can be really expensive in more was than the obvious.....

[Robert Taylor]

A while ago I was talking to a guy running an Öhlins rear shock, his comments worried me a bit when he said that it was quite good but wasn't very reliable as the shaft seal needed frequent replacement. After a bit more discussion I learned that the shaft seal lasted about 5 - 6K's before leaking again.

I offered to service the shock and tendered a price for the same, he declined pointing out that I was twice the price of where he was getting the work done. I offered to put in writing on the invoice that if the shaft seal leaked again within 20k's I would replace it at no charge, including removal and refitting to the bike, eventually I got his business.

When I dismantled the shock I found the shaft seal was not the genuine Öhlins part (a viton quad ring) but a buna 'o' ring that can be purchased from any engineering shop (not even the right size!) With the over sized 'o'ring fitted shaft friction was huge with a worn out seal I can only guess how it must have been when first assembled. Worse there is a nylon 66 spacer that the shaft seal buts up against, the replacement "seal" was fitted on the wrong side of this spacer! The reason that the seal had probably failed in the first place is that the shaft dust seal had worn out. The oil was the wrong viscosity, and to compensate some shims had been removed to allow for the wrong oil that was too thick.

After returning the shock back to factory specifications (shims) from the spec card and fitting the correct shaft seal (in the correct place), fitting a new dust seal (not available to non Öhlins agents) cleaning out the oil which was quite a job as it had reacted with the remainder of the Öhlins oil and formed a difficult to remove very tenacious white sludge on absolutely everything, mandating a complete strip and painstaking clean of everything, and replacing all of the seals as they had been attacked by the white sludge and filling with the correct quantity of the correct oil, the shock was finally as it should be!

When fitted to the bike and adjusted the customer came to pick the bike up. I explained to him about the cost overruns over the estimate and the reasons for the same, I provided him with digital images of the shock internals before and after as well as a sample of the white sludge on a shim that I replaced rather than attempted to clean.

He was not pleased about the bill and reminded me that he would be back soon for the free shaft seal because he put lots of miles on the bike with all his commuting.

Two days later he called up saying the shock worked just like it did when he purchased the bike with an Öhlins shock already fitted, he had calmed down a bit. He then told of how he had been told by the other person that worked on the shock that the Öhlins shock wears out just as fast as a stock shock and thats why it would be different once rebuilt. This was simply not true and an obvious excuse by the other party to knowingly cover up the deficiencies in their work!

Now the bike is approaching 20k's on the last shock rebuild (detailed above) and will be back for service soon (within the next 3 months), and he has not been able to collect on a single one of his free shaft seal replacements, as they have simply not been needed.

So was correct servicing twice the price of the lower cost alternative, sure if you take a single item view of the world. If you look at the long tern view it was half the price of the low cost option.

All too often people know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Cheap jobs or poor workmanship can be really expensive in more was than the obvious.....

A partially self inflicted victim of the ''cheap is best'' mentality? To quote someone elses devastatingly true saying ''The bitterness of poor quality lasts much longer than the sweetness of low price'' A news story last night on the recall of a number of Chinese made toys was very interesting, and frankly not surprising.

That there are people who are also in effect very misrepresentative of their true abilities and are prepared to tell absolute fairy tales is very disturbing.

[RiderInBlack]

Ya tells of the darkside of suspension maintenance just confirms what I have always maintain re: bike maintenance and mechanics:
With the risks of riding bikes capable of what they can do now (even my old CBR1000F has a top of 260kpm), ya can't afford to put ya trust in poor workmanship for the sake of saving a bit of money. A bad mechanic can laterally get ya killed. Find a mechanic ya can trust and is open with the work they do on ya bike, and pay them their fair due. They can save ya life.

[Pixie]

Sorry to dissapoint, the loss of a linkage transfers the complication into the insides of the rear shock. In terms of top level road race, linkage systems are very much in vogue, despite the external complication. Maybe another day I will elaborate.

Robert,with regards to some road bikes,I once read that some linkage systems offer little,if any, rate change.

I plotted the wheel travel versus shock travel of a 1996 Bandit 1200.
Measuring the distances at the axle and between the shock mounts,with the shock removed.I plotted 34 points,one every 5mm of wheel travel.
I found the rate was a fairly constant 2.4 to 1 over the whole shock travel.

There are other reasons for linkage systems.They may allow the use of space that a cantilever arrangement ( early Yamaha ) would occupy.Or may be purely a marketing ploy.

[Robert Taylor]

Robert,with regards to some road bikes,I once read that some linkage systems offer little,if any, rate change.

I plotted the wheel travel versus shock travel of a 1996 Bandit 1200.
Measuring the distances at the axle and between the shock mounts,with the shock removed.I plotted 34 points,one every 5mm of wheel travel.
I found the rate was a fairly constant 2.4 to 1 over the whole shock travel.

There are other reasons for linkage systems.They may allow the use of space that a cantilever arrangement ( early Yamaha ) would occupy.Or may be purely a marketing ploy.

Yes, some linkages are very linear and others quite progressive.

Current lack of time precludes writing a ''War and Peace'' length novel, but...

For any given uniform rear axle upwards velocity a link system varies the shock shaft speed. The faster the shock shaft speed the greater the damping force. This progressivity in damping force is achieved geometrically.

In a linkless system there is only a smidgen of ''geometric'' progressivity. The increase in damping force is achieved by secondary pistons and tapered needles in the WP design. ( Actually it is an Ohlins design, licensing fees being paid to Ohlins after a court case established that KTM who own WP ''acquired'' the technology in a less than normally acceptable way ).

In the PDS system now employed by Ohlins the secondary piston enters a bottoming cup with a lead in taper that gives a much more seamless transition than their first design as in the paragraph above. A triumph of simplicity.

Both systems have their merits and flaws. Suffice to say that were the linkless PDS system a great technological leap then the Japanese factories would have followed suit long ago. External complexity ( the link ) is favoured over internal complexity ( a PDS shock with lots of internal parts and more setting parameters )

Personally, I think the WP PDS shock is a very average piece of equipment and an ex World champ that used the product will back me up on that. But those are mine and his opinions, without the need or stomach to start WW3.

So what about combining the two? NOT SO CRAZY on an MX bike. Final bottoming control on an MX bike is ''afforded'' by a longish bump rubber, really quite crude. So why not use an internal bottoming cup inside the shock with a small piston, much like you see in front forks. And make that piston tunable with a shim stack. Get rid of the 45mm long external bump rubber and substitute it with a 10mm long one, just for peace of mind. And because bottoming control is now rather more sophisticated and effective it negates the normal setting compromises with the main piston valving and selection of main spring rate.

96 and 00 retired NZMX125 champ Andrew Hardisty currently rides a Suzuki RMZ450, a bike with link type rear suspension. Initially we supplied him with a ''standard'' Ohlins rear shock, which he was very happy with. But, because I wanted to answer the question I then built him a second Ohlins shock with an internal PDS piston and short bump rubber. Because we added that I softened off the internal low speed and therefore high speed compression valving and fitted a spring one rate softer. Andrew loved the performance of this shock so much he proffessed that he wanted to sleep with it! This bike is being retired and he wants a similiar shock built for his new RMZ250.

Many MX shocks could be built in this way but of course the price is significantly higher. Many works MX bikes have this technology, including the MX2 Ohlins kitted world champion winning Kawasaki last season.

Of course nothing is as new and revolutionary as many would have you beleive. A number of early 80s Husqvarna MX / Enduro bikes had very long travel twin shocks with very minimalist external bump rubbers. These shocks have internal bottoming out cups and ( non shim type ) pistons inside them.

[F5 Dave]

In part of the lost data I had an eloquently written post (I’m counting on the data never being retrieved so I can claim this:shifty:) about some random thoughts I was having on shock shaft speed. My meagre understanding is that the linkages afford somewhere just above an overall 2:1 ratio which has the advantage of slowing the shock absorber, however it would appear there was a sweet spot of ratio where 3:1 would be too steep of a ratio, perhaps as the shock needs some travel for the piston to open the shims hence is harsh until has moved this much.

As I’d stated a friend’s RZ500 has a very stiff spring & presumably a high ratio & short shock movement. One wonders if there is any hope for an upgrade but perhaps a more modern shock with shimming off the piston would react better to the high ratio? However the cost would hardly match the bike.

as an aside my understanding is GP bikes, for a while at least - trying to combat the ‘stiff frame & suspension doesn’t move much when leant right over’ patter had a slight falling rate at some point built in.

[DMNTD]

A special thank you to you Robert for providing springs,valving and setting up my ZX10 this week (Came from Bay City mc).
I genuinely appreciate it mate :niceone:

[Robert Taylor]

In part of the lost data I had an eloquently written post (I’m counting on the data never being retrieved so I can claim this:shifty:) about some random thoughts I was having on shock shaft speed. My meagre understanding is that the linkages afford somewhere just above an overall 2:1 ratio which has the advantage of slowing the shock absorber, however it would appear there was a sweet spot of ratio where 3:1 would be too steep of a ratio, perhaps as the shock needs some travel for the piston to open the shims hence is harsh until has moved this much.

As I’d stated a friend’s RZ500 has a very stiff spring & presumably a high ratio & short shock movement. One wonders if there is any hope for an upgrade but perhaps a more modern shock with shimming off the piston would react better to the high ratio? However the cost would hardly match the bike.

as an aside my understanding is GP bikes, for a while at least - trying to combat the ‘stiff frame & suspension doesn’t move much when leant right over’ patter had a slight falling rate at some point built in.

There is an Ohlins listing, now out of production, but we have built over the years a handful of these shocks off the spec card. People have valued these bikes enough to justify the cost and the very real performance improvement. The valving inside the original ''gap filling device'' is little better than a checkplate.

I still have the very compressed front wheel off my one that I comprehensively wrote off. If emulators had been available at that time I am sure the wheel would be compressed a few less centimetres!

Your text re link ratios is essentially correct. Many of the later Hondas also have a start ratio that requires stiff springing, this seems to go round in circles, many ways of skinning the cat.

[F5 Dave]

Careful Robert people will think you've actually ridden a bike.

Yeah he'll probably be up for a shock when he finishes the project (has been some years already haha), forks are upside downies & 17" wheels with a zillion kilos removed. Will be considerably nicer than the std fair so will be worth spending some money on, if not the full boogie spec.

Many shocks seem to wear out the hard anodising of an ally body, has nickasil plating become popular as a bona fide repair/upgrade? Maybe at that point the cost doesn't warrant continuing on top of a kit.

[Robert Taylor]

Careful Robert people will think you've actually ridden a bike.

Yeah he'll probably be up for a shock when he finishes the project (has been some years already haha), forks are upside downies & 17" wheels with a zillion kilos removed. Will be considerably nicer than the std fair so will be worth spending some money on, if not the full boogie spec.

Many shocks seem to wear out the hard anodising of an ally body, has nickasil plating become popular as a bona fide repair/upgrade? Maybe at that point the cost doesn't warrant continuing on top of a kit.



Please dont tell anyone, it is a past life. I used to like riding them, before I became much much more excited about the supenders on them.

Usually when you get to see a ''bellmouthed'' body tube it is too late for any form of recovery and any of the plating processes are quite expensive, tolerancing is also a big problem.

As yet I havent evidenced anyone overseas doing this and frankly I would doubt that it will happen.

[The Pastor]

what about shimming up suspension? is this a good or bad idea?

[boomer]

what about shimming up suspension? is this a good or bad idea?

depends how short you are i guess and if ya have enough strength in ya arms and legs to get u up there.. but i gotta say .. "WHY WOULD YA?"

[kiwifruit]

I'm off to sample the TEN with its new ohlins bits, cheers Robert :D