Free energy?

[Biff]

Has mankind finally managed to harness some of the universes 'free' energy sources, or even managed to prove the existence of 'zero-point' energy?

Independent scientists are currently evaluating the inventor's claims (although the inventor of the 'Orbo' the device which appears to harness the free energy admits he doesn't know how it works), as the laws of energy state that energy cannot be created or destroyed.

Religious and scientific dogma alert:

http://www.steorn.com/ (http://www.steorn.com/)

Or it may all be utter bollox of course.

[Animal]

Hmmm... interesting. Some bold claims there. We'll have to wait and see if he's onto something or just full of crap.

[Steam]

Hey, I'm not making any judgements here, just saying this hoaxter loony fraudster is off his rocker. In a nice, friendly way, however.
Aside from having NEVER been shown to work in public, I note it has met some of the seven criteria for identifying voodoo science...

1) A discovery is pitched directly to the media.
The integrity of science rests on the willingness of scientists to expose new ideas and findings to the scrutiny o f other scientists. While there is no rigid set of rules, it is generally expected that the initial exposure of new work will be at a scientific conference or in a scholarly journal. Thus, by the time the general public learns of a discovery, a limited body of expert opinion concerning its validity and importance should already exist. An attempt to bypass the scientific community by taking a new finding directly to the media, suggests that the work is unlikely to stand up to close examination by other scientists.

2) A powerful "establishment" is said to be suppressing the discovery.
Revolutionary discoveries that might shift the balance of wealth and influence in society are said to be threatening to powerful establishment interests. The establishment will presumably stop at nothing to suppress such discoveries. The "scientific establishment" is often pictured as a part of a larger conspiracy that includes industry and government.

4) Evidence for a discovery is anecdotal.
The most important discovery in modern medicine was not vaccines or antibiotics, it is the randomized double-blind-test, by means of which we know what works and what doesn't. If medical science has learned anything in the past one-hundred years, it is to distrust anecdotal evidence. Anecdotes have a very strong emotional impact. Indeed, in an age of science, it is anecdotes that keep superstitious beliefs alive.

6) An important discovery is made in isolation.
Most scientific advances draw heavily on research by a number of scientists or groups working in related areas. Successful innovators tend to be actively involved in the open exchange of scientific ideas and results, presenting their work at scientific conferences and publishing in mainstream scholarly journals. The image of a lone genius working in secrecy in an attic laboratory who makes a revolutionary breakthrough, is a staple of Hollywood horror films, but its hard to find examples in real life. There are frequent claims by lone inventors to have made such breakthroughs, but the claims rarely if ever stand up.

7) New laws of nature are proposed to explain an incredible observation.
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. They also demand some explanation of how they can be reconciled with the same natural laws that govern everyth ing else. If existing laws of nature must be changed, or new laws must be proposed, the observation is almost certainly wrong.

[Hitcher]

Smells like the "developers" are planning to separate suckers from their money. I suspect their "breakthrough" may be frighteningly effective at that.

[xwhatsit]

Oh good lord, you haven't been reading about the Orbo, have you?

The things a laughing matter amongst the Compsci lot in particular. Ever notice the fact it seems to completely disobey the first law of thermodynamics?

Here's a tip the next time something pops up calling itself `Free Energy' or `Zero Point Energy' -- those are just fancy words for Perpetual Motion. As soon as you call it perpetual motion you realise what a crackpot load of crap it is; we all know perpetual motion is something solidly debunked and is completely impossible because of thermodynamics.

[sels1]

Note ....it is an Irish company....

[SPman]

It must be good when they can't even get their demo to work......

Energy! Free! - does not compute!

[ManDownUnder]

Boad of lollox...

Coz If I was able to re-write the laws of physics I'd be a very rich boy.... stinking rich...

...but I am not rich... just in need of a shower.

[Biff]

Here's a tip the next time something pops up calling itself `Free Energy' or `Zero Point Energy' -- those are just fancy words for Perpetual Motion

??????. Perpetual motion is considered as a mechanism by which zero point energy can be 'generated' into a useful form, while zero point energy itself is the term given to the inherent energy within any system (often refereed to as the stationary state), as described by Max Planck, he of quantum physics fame. It's also a potential candidate for the enormous energy allegedly apparent in dark matter.

We humans like poo pooing ideas if they so much as belch in the face of scientific principles and 'rules', especially age old scientific principles (like your third law of thermodynamics) derived by some clever sort a few hundred years ago. I hope we will don't do this in a thousand years time, else we'll never gain a real understanding about what's really going down there, a the quantum level, and everywhere else there has ever been, or will be, or not...depending on your religion.

And I fart in the face of your thermodynamics - because either or both of the first rules of thermodynamics state it's not possible for a perpetual motion machinamathingy to work anyway. And we know for a fact that there are plenty of perpetual motion mathingie machines around today, as there has been for hundreds of years..

[Coyote]

I've been reading what their site has to say.

So far I know it produces clean, free energy and we will all hear the scientists confirming it works end of this year.... right, so what colour is it?

[ManDownUnder]

I've been reading what their site has to say.

So far I know it produces clean, free energy and we will all hear the scientists confirming it works end of this year.... right, so what colour is it?

Green (backs)... they gave themselves till the end of the year to collect cash from saps... and when it doesn't work out they disappear...

[Edbear]

And we know for a fact that there are plenty of perpetual motion mathingie machines around today, as there has been for hundreds of years..



We do?:confused:

[NighthawkNZ]

.... right, so what colour is it?

and does is it come in any other colour as well. :D

[avgas]

A magnets energy is only as good as the movement through the flux.
no movement - equal and opposite forces.
If this is the guy who had a magnetic orb "Pulsing as water ran through it" fantastic concept - u just need alot of water to power a city.
On the flip side of the coin, if the energy is free and easily obtained what is stopping what happend when russia got a good dose of free energy.

[steved]

We do?:confused:

I look forward to buying mine too Biff.

[xwhatsit]

And we know for a fact that there are plenty of perpetual motion mathingie machines around today, as there has been for hundreds of years..

<hints id="hah_hints"></hints>Pardon me?

[Biff]

Pardon me?


We do?:confused:

The wood screw thingy shown in Wicki was the first claimed such widget, invented around 1600.

And my gran has one of those jumping dolphin things, the kind with weights on it. The box clearly stated that the machine was a perpetual motion device....so it must have been true.

And I once saw a doco on the Dicovery channel, and in it it showed a magnetic/dynamo closed look circuit type of setup, the inventor claimed it'd been running for years. But admitted that he thought it was slowing down, probably due to friction.

Bloody friction.

Bloody rules.

[xwhatsit]

The wood screw thingy shown in Wicki was the first claimed such widget, invented around 1600.

And my gran has one of those jumping dolphin things, the kind with weights on it. The box clearly stated that the machine was a perpetual motion device....so it must have been true.

And I once saw a doco on the Dicovery channel, and in it it showed a magnetic/dynamo closed look circuit type of setup, the inventor claimed it'd been running for years. But admitted that he thought it was slowing down, probably due to friction.

Bloody friction.

Bloody rules.

You're trolling, right? :D

If your Discovery channel man had a closed loop system like that, then for a start he's doing very well to get back 100% of the energy put out. That, in itself, is amazing -- never mind the principle of entropy, of course ;). However, even if he was getting 100% efficiency, the point he made about friction is completely valid. xx% of that 100% energy return will be going in to conquering that friction -- no matter how small the friction is -- so while the thing will keep on going for a long time eventually it'll run out of puff. And that's disregarding entropy entirely.

Secondly, of course -- but this is not central to the concept of perpetual motion itself, just for making it useful -- how are you ever going to extract usable work out of this thing? If all the energy it produces is going back into making it run, then there's none left over to power your hairdryer anyway.

You are trolling, aren't you?

[Edbear]

You're trolling, right? :D



People on KB trolling...????!!!!!:gob:

[Biff]

You're trolling, right? :D



.............................

:blip:

[swbarnett]

"By free we mean that the energy produced is done so without recourse to external source."

Bollocks! Conservation of energy principle states that if there's energy out there must be energy in.

A couple of chemists claimed to have invented a fusion reactor but it turned out that they had no idea how to detect neutrons (that takes a physicist). This free energy machine is probably the same. These guys just have no idea what they're talking about and see what they want to see.

[Biff]

I look forward to buying mine too Biff.

You heathen. Here, hard evidence. $500 to you:

http://www.officeplayground.com/cosmos.html

and here

http://www.allwaze.com/woodcraft-hover.htm (http://www.allwaze.com/woodcraft-hover.htm)


:yes:

[swbarnett]

And I fart in the face of your thermodynamics - because either or both of the first rules of thermodynamics state it's not possible for a perpetual motion machinamathingy to work anyway. And we know for a fact that there are plenty of perpetual motion mathingie machines around today, as there has been for hundreds of years..

How old are you? You'll have to live to infinity to prove any given machine is truly perpetual.

You may build a machine that will run on it's own for a year, two, or even longer but you will never build a machine that will run for ever. Let's assume for the sake of argument that you can eliminate 100% of the friction in a system. As soon as you put a load onto it to extract useful energy you will slow the system and it will eventually stop.

Or are you just bating the hook to see who's high strung enough to bite?

[swbarnett]

You heathen. Here, hard evidence. $500 to you:

http://www.officeplayground.com/cosmos.html

and here

http://www.allwaze.com/woodcraft-hover.htm (http://www.allwaze.com/woodcraft-hover.htm)


:yes:

These are not perpetual motion machines. They have an external energy source (the battery). They are probably as close as anyone will ever get though and very mesmerising.

[sAsLEX]

It must be good when they can't even get their demo to work......

Energy! Free! - does not compute!

This came out last year saying they were weeks/months awy from being proved right.......




We humans like poo pooing ideas if they so much as belch in the face of scientific principles and 'rules'..

The world is flat dammit!

[Karma]

1904 - Radar
1913 - bras
1923 - hearing aids
1951 - contraceptive pill
1965 - HTML
1971 - floppy disc

"Everything that can be invented has been invented."
Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. patent office, 1899

What we may accept as law and nature today, may tomorrow seem ridiculous.

[xwhatsit]

1904 - Radar
1913 - bras
1923 - hearing aids
1951 - contraceptive pill
1965 - HTML
1971 - floppy disc

"Everything that can be invented has been invented."
Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. patent office, 1899

What we may accept as law and nature today, may tomorrow seem ridiculous.

<hints id="hah_hints"></hints>HTML didn't come about until 1991; or 1989 if you count its predecessor.

It's all very well to trot out the `world is flat' argument, but unfortunately the laws of thermodynamics seem rather more difficult to disprove than the word of God was.

[sAsLEX]

more difficult to disprove than the word of God was.

Difficult and impossible are two different things.

[steved]

and here

http://www.allwaze.com/woodcraft-hover.htm (http://www.allwaze.com/woodcraft-hover.htm)

Why would they say this?


Batteries are used to overcome the air friction losses and simply give the moving arm a 'kick' each time it passes the base. Each Levitating Motion Sculpture takes four AA batteries, and will continue to rotate from several months to a year, on the one set prior to replacement.

Obviously they haven't grasped the fact that they are all geniuses! They must have been gotten to but the estabilishment, or government, or military, or all three.

[Karma]

<hints id="hah_hints"></hints>It's all very well to trot out the `world is flat' argument, but unfortunately the laws of thermodynamics seem rather more difficult to disprove than the word of God was.


I'm sure people said the same thing about splitting the atom and transmitting huge amounts of data over the air in seconds.

Take any of our recent achievements back in time by only 50 years and you'd be classed as some kinda magician. What's to say what will happen in the next 10-20 years?

[sAsLEX]

What's to say what will happen in the next 10-20 years?

Depends where the $$$ are to be honest. The new PS3, the chip in that is pretty amazing, but from its pretty lacklustre showing against the Wii I wonder if they would be willing to put all that development in to PS4 only to be beaten by something well behind the technology it developed.

[xwhatsit]

The quest for perpetual motion has been going on since the 11th century,

Without ever stopping.

[SARGE]

Has mankind finally managed to harness some of the universes 'free' energy sources, or even managed to prove the existence of 'zero-point' energy?

Independent scientists are currently evaluating the inventor's claims (although the inventor of the 'Orbo' the device which appears to harness the free energy admits he doesn't know how it works), as the laws of energy state that energy cannot be created or destroyed.

Religious and scientific dogma alert:

http://www.steorn.com/ (http://www.steorn.com/)

Or it may all be utter bollox of course.

we will know if he is right in a few months if he mysteriously dies and his research burns up in the accompanying lab fire

[avgas]

Difficult and impossible are two different things.
Technically speaking the world is flat, and the globe is round. its all about perspective really.
The world has always been flat - but when it wrapped around the planet it becomes a globe.
People fail to recognize the fact that 'the world' refers to the net of places - not how it is constructed.

[Skyryder]

This may be a bit off topic but there's a promo on Discovery or it may be the Geographic channel with a guy holding a burning flame in the palm of his hand and the promo says that this stuff is going to energize the world. Any one know what that's all about.

Skyryder

[Dargor]

what is stopping what happend when russia got a good dose of free energy.

Not being made in Russia.. if its not bullshit of course.

[Mekk]

Check out http://www.randi.org for all you need to know about Steorn and their bs.

[Karma]

Technically speaking the world is flat, and the globe is round. its all about perspective really.
The world has always been flat - but when it wrapped around the planet it becomes a globe.
People fail to recognize the fact that 'the world' refers to the net of places - not how it is constructed.


Explain the horizon.

[xwhatsit]

Explain the horizon.

<hints id="hah_hints"></hints>You're making classic n00b mistake -- don't mix up your data with your interface.

The world is flat, for all intents and purposes. It can be represented as such. However, it's interface is presented as a globe.

I'm failing at explaining it, especially after some so-called brain lubrication. Carefully re-read Avgas's post again and you'll see he's not trying to refute your statement, he's talking about something quite different.

[Steam]

Here's how a guy in the USA is making hundreds of thousands by duping farmers and yokels into supporting his "free energy" scheme...
http://www.randi.org/jr/112301.html

Randi comments: Now Mr. Ma gets down to what Dennis Lee is really doing with his crowd, selling them the same old swindle that Charles Ponzi and his successors worked so successfully, the Pyramid Scam....

The Lee pyramid scheme, from what I can gather, goes like this: the people at the show are invited to become "witnesses." Lee says he will have two prototypes built for Maryland, and the witnesses, by contract, have to go to one of those exhibitions. (There will be 1.6 million witnesses nationwide.) Each witness will be given a certificate for free electricity at the event, and nine certificates for free electricity for friends. That catch is, those nine people have to pay $1000 each to get in on it. He will then use that $9000 to build it for you, and the excess electricity from the machine on your property will be sold for five cents/megawatt to finance more units to be built for the people you refer, and for your own profit. You will also get the profit from the people you refer. This keeps expanding until he gets some number of units built, 32 million I think, when he will lower the price to 1 cent/MW to drive all power companies out of business, and then totally convert the country to this free electricity to eliminate pollution.

The profits for the top level recruits, said Lee, would be $230,000/yr and it would be $16 billion a year for him, from selling the electricity. . . . At the end of the show, the only people left looked like they were ready to enlist in a militia to fight "big government" and "big business." They looked like mostly farmers and others that care little about the actual physics.

I was kind of afraid to ask any negative questions because it seemed like I was alone in that group. Everyone except me was grabbing for forms to sign up as a recruiter or a dealer. All the scientists had left before then.

[Karma]

<hints id="hah_hints"></hints>You're making classic n00b mistake -- don't mix up your data with your interface.

The world is flat, for all intents and purposes. It can be represented as such. However, it's interface is presented as a globe.

I'm failing at explaining it, especially after some so-called brain lubrication. Carefully re-read Avgas's post again and you'll see he's not trying to refute your statement, he's talking about something quite different.

Kinda like saying that we are standing still for all intents and purpose, when in reality we're all spinning around an axis at 0.5 km/sec and on top of that revolving around the sun at 30km/sec.

[ManDownUnder]

Everyone except me was grabbing for forms to sign up as a recruiter or a dealer. All the scientists had left before then.


Yup - it's interesting how those with knowledge often leave before they story can be ruined... a shame too.

[avgas]

Explain the horizon.
Not the world, merly the world wrapped around the earth.
For anyone else out there - show me why in the internet is a globe.
Do people live in the core of the earth?
The "world" does not refer to the construction of the "planet"
Otherwise there would be no "up" or "down", in the world. Only "in" or "out".
Think about it.
Its all perspective man

[Karma]

We'll have to disagree on this one, I can see where you're going, but your definition of world is all wrong.




world /wɜrld/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[wurld] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the earth or globe, considered as a planet.
2. (often initial capital letter) a particular division of the earth: the Western world.
3. the earth or a part of it, with its inhabitants, affairs, etc., during a particular period: the ancient world.
4. humankind; the human race; humanity: The world must eliminate war and poverty.
5. the public generally: The whole world knows it.
6. the class of persons devoted to the affairs, interests, or pursuits of this life: The world worships success.
7. a particular class of people, with common interests, aims, etc.: the fashionable world.
8. any sphere, realm, or domain, with all pertaining to it: a child's world; the world of dreams; the insect world.
9. everything that exists; the universe; the macrocosm.
10. any complex whole conceived as resembling the universe: the world of the microcosm.
11. one of the three general groupings of physical nature: animal world; mineral world; vegetable world.
12. any period, state, or sphere of existence: this world; the world to come.
13. Often, worlds. a great deal: That vacation was worlds of fun.
14. any indefinitely great expanse.
15. any heavenly body: the starry worlds.
—Idioms
16. bring into the world,
a. to give birth to; bear: My grandmother brought nine children into the world.
b. to deliver (a baby): the doctor brought many children into the world.
17. come into the world, to be born: Her first child came into the world in June.
18. for all the world,
a. for any consideration, however great: She wouldn't come to visit us for all the world.
b. in every respect; precisely: You look for all the world like my Aunt Mary.
19. in the world,
a. at all; ever: I never in the world would have believed such an obvious lie.
b. from among all possibilities: Where in the world did you find that hat?
20. on top of the world. top1 (def. 46).
21. out of this or the world, exceptional; fine: The chef prepared a roast duck that was out of this world.
22. set the world on fire, to achieve great fame and success: He didn't seem to be the type to set the world on fire.
23. think the world of, to like or admire greatly: His coworkers think the world of him.
24. world without end, for all eternity; for always.
[Origin: bef. 900; ME; OE world, weorold; c. D wereld, G Welt, ON verǫld, all < Gmc *wer-ald- lit., age of man]

—Synonyms 1. See earth.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.