New TollNZ Campaign - Level Crossing Safety

[McJim]

Just seen we are going to get some "Hard Hitting" Adverts about level crossings.

I had never ever seen a level crossing until I came to New Zealand.

We have a couple of revolutionary inventions in the UK - one is called a bridge and the other is called an underpass.

How many bridges/underpasses could be built for the cost of the campaign?

What monetary value should we be placing on lives? I'm sure that out of the 3000 or so level crossings there are probably only 50 that are busy enough and with poor visibility that could do with a bridge or underpass.

Build bridges NZ gubbermint! PLEASE STOP THE CARNAGE!

[sAsLEX]

I have seen level crossings in the UK. You mustn't of travelled much.

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[McJim]

That's England though - I never went there ('cept London - which doesn't count since they don't speak english there any more)

[Indiana_Jones]

Level crossings work fine in theory if people did what the fucking lights are telling them lol

-Indy

[Waylander]

Level crossings work fine in theory if people did what the fucking lights are telling them lol

-Indy
And assuming the lights work.

Another funny thing about the level crossings here. Why do they not have arm barriers on them? They have them at toll booths and such but no such luck for most train crossings.
Shows where their priorities lay I guess..

[Winter]

Level crossings work fine in theory if people did what the fucking lights are telling them lol

-Indy

Except when the power goes out and half of Auckland sits around trapped in their cages because the barrier arms are all down.

[Waylander]

Except when the power goes out and half of Auckland sits around trapped in their cages because the barrier arms are all down.
Better than getting run over by the fucking train they don't know is coming.

[Steam]

How many bridges/underpasses could be built for the cost of the campaign?


Honestly, probably about three. And I'm not joking. Bridges and underpasses are not cheap things.

[Steam]

There are 1400 public level crossings on the rail network, and about ten thousand private ones, (driveways) so there's just no way they can tackle that problem. The problem isn't the safety of level crossings, it's that people are fucking stupid and don't see the trains.

Look at it this way, if they didn't see the train, they DEFINITELY wouldn't have seen you on your motorbike. Therefore they deserve to die.

After some blind dick hits a train he DOES NOT give a wave and say "Sorry mate, didn't see ya."
He kind of just gurgles.

[Indiana_Jones]

And assuming the lights work.



Assuming they work.

You could say the same about anything.

The plane is gonna fly, asuming the engines work.

your gonna live asuming your heart works lol

-Indy

[Waylander]

Assuming they work.

You could say the same about anything.

The plane is gonna fly, asuming the engines work.

your gonna live asuming your heart works lol

-Indy
It's the risks that make life interesting.

[Indiana_Jones]

It's the risks that make life interesting.

Exactly :D

-Indy

[scumdog]

The train can't swerve/stop quickly and you know it ALWAYS will be on the rails - nowhere else.

So how hard IS it to spot one near enough to hit you when you're on a crossing??

You only have les than a second of a 'window of opportunity' for it to hit (although you may have a minute or more for YOU to hit it).

[sAsLEX]

Better than getting run over by the fucking train they don't know is coming.

Their eyes not work?

[kro]

How many bridges/underpasses could be built for the cost of the campaign?


To answer this question, Sod all. They cost an arm an a leg to build, and take ages at that. Any tunnel under a railway is built to many times the spec's of a road traffic underpass.

At the risk of receiving barrells of red rep, I lived in an area for 7 years, that I had to travel over two level crossings daily, with signs only, and trains frequently mimicing my timetable, and never once did I come anywhere near getting smacked by a train. A train is big, noisy, and imo, freakin hard to miss in any situation.

The fatality a few months ago involved speed and recklessness, I was aquainted with Ryan Jamieson, and he was a young and impetuous, and messed up royally.

This latest one is probably little more than the result of the same impatience that we see on the "give way" sign adverts on TV, with people being rush rush, and getting t-boned.

Whether there are bells, arms, or just a sign there, I don't see any excuse for a car being hit by a train unless the driver is :
Blind
Stupid
Drunk

Now we know there are a lot of stupid car drivers out there, and the article on Ryans death had the local train specialist guy saying that motorists would often drive around the arm barriers, or race trians, or play chicken with them......... this is raw stupidity, and if we start spending tax payer money on fixing it, then we too are idiots sorry.

[NighthawkNZ]

all level crossings should have barriers...

[Dave Lobster]

It'd be cheaper to give all drivers eyes.

[rideNroot]

How many people in NZ die each year on level crossings? I'd say sweet fuck all.

[Indiana_Jones]

I like the one where they have mummy and little car stuck inbetween a car and a truck on the crossing.

They got pwned like total n00bs.

.......I think they could of got out of it though, but the dumb bitch was just beeping her horn lol

-Indy

[What?]

all level crossings should have barriers...

Why?

Not too long ago, after hearing the stories from train drivers, the cops sent some men with cameras for train rides. What they witnessed was clowns not only ignoring lights & bells, but even driving around barrier arms to beat the train, and not uncommonly, either. This included cars, trucks and motorcycles.

Every level crossing in NZ is signposted.
Every driver in NZ is responsible for taking notice of those signs, and acting accordingly.
The road does not cross the railway. It stops at the edge of the railway, and recommences on the other side. On a level crossing, you are in the train's territory, not vice-versa.
No-one should ever trust lights, bells and barriers to protect them - being electrical devices, they can fail to operate (very rare that this happens, but it can). Eyes and Brain should be connected.

There is NO excuse for colliding with a train. The guy at Ohingaiti the other day may have had suffered sunstrike, but that is no excuse - he should have stopped and made sure it was safe to go. He didn't, and has paid the price. Unfotunately, his wife, child and family all have to pay as well.

[Albino]

Drivers (and bikers) should look at every rail crossing. Sometimes lights and barriers are faulty, sometimes there are no barriers or lights. And my guess is that the more barriers we put in, the less chance that people will THINK when they come to a crossing without a barrier, or one that isn't working.

Roads are dangerous. But the more we remove the [perception of] risk then the less attention drivers will pay to driving safely.



[Edit] PS - McJim, bridges aren't practical. One bridge takes at least three years to build in this country. We don't know why, maybe it's something to do with the Taniwhas.

[MSTRS]

Roads are dangerous. But the more we remove the [perception of] risk then the less attention drivers will pay to driving safely.




This is one of my pet gripes. The more 'laws' we have to make 'things safer', the less attention is paid to thinking about what might happen if.....
Specifically re the Ohingaiti crossing, the road runs parallel to the tracks on both approaches. If going in the same direction as the train, drivers could hardly fail to see/hear it right beside them. And if opposing directions, then can the driver not see that dirty big headlight on the train, along with flashing red warning lights at the crossing, if not bells as well?
Sounds callous, but stupidity can only be removed by itself

[imdying]

Look at it this way, if they didn't see the train, they DEFINITELY wouldn't have seen you on your motorbike. Therefore they deserve to die.I don't know about deserve to die, but some people do need to learn the hard way.

So how hard IS it to spot one near enough to hit you when you're on a crossing??Not that difficult, they generally have a pretty big light on them. If you're patient, and actually take the time out to check, then there's a good chance you'll spot the train.

To answer this question, Sod all. They cost an arm an a leg to build, and take ages at that. Any tunnel under a railway is built to many times the spec's of a road traffic underpass.Yep, big dollars to build something like that to prevent impatient people from getting whacked.

The fatality a few months ago involved speed and recklessness, I was aquainted with Ryan Jamieson, and he was a young and impetuous, and messed up royally.And fortunately can no longer breed that into others.

Now we know there are a lot of stupid car drivers out there, and the article on Ryans death had the local train specialist guy saying that motorists would often drive around the arm barriers, or race trians, or play chicken with them......... this is raw stupidity, and if we start spending tax payer money on fixing it, then we too are idiots sorry.Hard to have much sympathy there.

This is one of my pet gripes. The more 'laws' we have to make 'things safer', the less attention is paid to thinking about what might happen if.....
Specifically re the Ohingaiti crossing, the road runs parallel to the tracks on both approaches. If going in the same direction as the train, drivers could hardly fail to see/hear it right beside them. And if opposing directions, then can the driver not see that dirty big headlight on the train, along with flashing red warning lights at the crossing, if not bells as well?
Sounds callous, but stupidity can only be removed by itselfIn the end, there's nothing the train driver can do, the onus is entirely on the car drivers to be looking out for the trains. The only place we should be building alternative routes (either over or under), is where people stopping to check that the way is clear would cause traffic flow problems.

[imdying]

all level crossings should have barriers...This wouldn't help, people drive around them. They should all have lights, but relying on them to be always functional isn't a smart move. There's not much respect in society any more, trains however don't give a fig about that... those that disrespect them get squashed.

[Edbear]

Why?

Not too long ago, after hearing the stories from train drivers, the cops sent some men with cameras for train rides. What they witnessed was clowns not only ignoring lights & bells, but even driving around barrier arms to beat the train, and not uncommonly, either. This included cars, trucks and motorcycles.

Every level crossing in NZ is signposted.
Every driver in NZ is responsible for taking notice of those signs, and acting accordingly.
The road does not cross the railway. It stops at the edge of the railway, and recommences on the other side. On a level crossing, you are in the train's territory, not vice-versa.
No-one should ever trust lights, bells and barriers to protect them - being electrical devices, they can fail to operate (very rare that this happens, but it can). Eyes and Brain should be connected.

There is NO excuse for colliding with a train. The guy at Ohingaiti the other day may have had suffered sunstrike, but that is no excuse - he should have stopped and made sure it was safe to go. He didn't, and has paid the price. Unfotunately, his wife, child and family all have to pay as well.


Also Kro and Scummy,

It's sad that these days too many people want someone else to take responsibility for their actions. Yes, maybe sunstrike was a factor, but what does one do if one cannot see where one is going? More likely is a lapse in concentration, or a distraction. I'd hate to be a train driver these days considering what they have to witness each time they venture out!

I've been driving and riding since I was 12, (:shutup:Sorry SD!), took a Defensive Driving Course at 16, (one of the first in NZ, and it was in American complete with left hand drive movies!), and it's stood me in good stead ever since.

Accidents, true accidents, do happen, but most "accidents" are caused by incompetence or carelessness and it seems it's usually someone else's fault. I feel for the family, but the accident needn't have happened. It was neither the train driver's fault nor the fault of the level crossing. It's like the description "killer roads", it's not the road that kills, it's the drivers who don't drive according to the conditions.

Ogden Nash said once, "Here lies the body of William Grey, who died maintaining his right of way. He was right, dead right, as he sped along, but now he's just as dead, as if he'd been dead wrong!"

One must balance expediency and right and law, against the consequences of failure. I don't like pain, and do like living, so those two factors tend to influence how I drive/ride. Sound like a boring old fart, don't I?:sunny:

[MSTRS]

Sound like a boring old fart, don't I?:sunny:

Only bored people are boring....are you?

[janno]

Ogden Nash said once, "Here lies the body of William Grey, who died maintaining his right of way. He was right, dead right, as he sped along, but now he's just as dead, as if he'd been dead wrong!"




That's great! Hadn't come across that one.

I have to agree that sunstrike is a strange explanation. If you can't see where you are going, wouldn't instinct tell you to slow down or stop to check? I don't know what it is about human nature that as soon as we get some wheels underneath us we feel invincible.

[Edbear]

Only bored people are boring....are you?



Heck no!!!! I just need a few more hours in the day and a more active adrenal gland to keep up with what I want to do!!! :second:The spirit, as they say, is willing but the aging bod needs a bit of encouragement these days! I sometimes wonder where my "get up and go", got up and went...:bye:

Of course I do tend to spend just a wee bit much time on KB...:innocent:

[scumdog]

Also Kro and Scummy,

It's sad that these days too many people want someone else to take responsibility for their actions.

Accidents, true accidents, do happen, but most "accidents" are caused by incompetence or carelessness and it seems it's usually someone else's fault.

One must balance expediency and right and law, against the consequences of failure. I don't like pain, and do like living, so those two factors tend to influence how I drive/ride. Sound like a boring old fart, don't I?:sunny:

Dead right about being responsible..lots of people never advance above 7 years old when it comes to this."It was his fault, he made me" "It's their fault, the should have..."

Accident-schmaccidents, the majority are preventable fuck-ups by incompetents who were too thick/inexperienced to realise the impending results of the actions/innaction.:yes:

One of yesterdays head-ons on an icy road had a Learner licence for the offending driver with two passenger (one had a Restricted licence).
It was the drivers first winter - had she been with an experienced driver (as she should have been) there's a good chance she would not have been driving at that speed on an icy road.
Four injured, two cars written-off

But gaaaarh, "The crash was caused by icy roads"

Wrong.

[terbang]

The plane is gonna fly, asuming the engines work.
-Indy

Gee last time I flew a glider it didn't have an engine...

I also tend to think of the Darwin theory here as well and the ones that the campaign is aimed at are just too stupid to take heed. Though I had an aunt who stalled and flooded her Humber Super Snipe on a level crossing back in the late 60's. She got pushed 1/4 of a mile down the track when a train came along! They repaired the car.

[Edbear]

Humber Super Snipe on a level crossing back in the late 60's. She got pushed 1/4 of a mile down the track when a train came along! They repaired the car.



But had to write off the train....:gob:

[imdying]

Gee last time I flew a glider it didn't have an engine...That's why it was a glider, not a plane... how did this glider get into the air in the first place?

[ynot slow]

Went over said crossing on Saturday at about 10.45am approx,saw a train at siding and saw couple of toll utes abd a photographer.Said to wife the steam train must be due here soon,as thought they were waiting to take pictures of steam train excursion that day.
Didn't even look that a fatal had happened about 2-3 hours prior,the sun was high when we came to crossing,but for christ sake it says 25km at bend,only reason the driver wouldn't have stopped was sunstrike,but shit the train must have been so close to hear the horns.
Even allowing for sun no 1 rule is stop and observe if in doubt.

I lived in part of town which has main railline go accross busy intersection,time and time the bells would go and no train would arrive,then you cross at your own perill.The railway corp then cut down from two tracks to one,alarm bells would still go off now and again,this time though,you could look towards station and if a train was on the line and shunting,either you crossed or the rail workers would wave you on.If on the other case there was no train at station ,you would just wait as chances were a train would be coming from the south and with a corner about 100mts it would be onto you quickly,the train doing say 60-70km and you stopped,by time you tryed to cross history.

[terbang]

That's why it was a glider, not a plane... how did this glider get into the air in the first place?
They are very much a plane with wings, tail and 3 axis control. Handled like a plane and was winched into the air with a cable. So then a Boeing 737 must loose its status of being a plane when it starts it's descent as we close the engines back to Idle at 37000' and 100 plus miles out and continue to our destination in a glide.

[WarlockNZ]

One must balance expediency and right and law, against the consequences of failure. I don't like pain, and do like living, so those two factors tend to influence how I drive/ride.

i couldn't have put it better myself.

[more_fasterer]

I'm surprised no-one's mentioned Gene-O-Kleen so far...

I'd rather have a myopic idiot failing to see (and subsequently colliding with) a train than my bike.

[MSTRS]

I'm surprised no-one's mentioned Gene-O-Kleen so far...

I'd rather have a myopic idiot failing to see (and subsequently colliding with) a train than my bike.

Would you? In the normal scheme of things, it would be you that driver didn't see...

[imdying]

So then a Boeing 737 must loose its status of being a plane when it starts it's descent as we close the engines back to Idle at 37000' and 100 plus miles out and continue to our destination in a glide.If you eject the engines before descent, then yes.

[WarlockNZ]

A 737 can glide .. well holy crap ... you learn something everyday

[Edbear]

A 737 can glide .. well holy crap ... you learn something everyday



Nah, they just fall a bit slower than a 747...:sunny:

[WarlockNZ]

Nah, they just fall a bit slower than a 747...:sunny:

LOL .. classic ...

Now back on topic ...

While i do sympathise with all the family's of those killed on level crossings, I am going to have to invoke the "*Darwin awards" rule on this one.

* People who, through there own stupid actions, remove themselves from the gene pool.

[Toaster]

The opening comments about the UK having bridges and underpasses and comparing it to little wee NZ having only level-crossings.... hmmm, well it is a bit easier to pay for bridges and underpasses when you have a population as high as the UK. Little NZ does what it can with total population the size of an average city in England.

[Hitcher]

Deaths still happen on crossings that have barrier arms. Most notably when motorists drive around the ends of them.

I can see why there are no barrier arms at Ohingaiti -- they would make bugger all difference, given the nature of the crossing.

Please let's not have a kneejerk reaction to this that results in the passing of some new dumb law, like microchipping trains.

[Indiana_Jones]

Gee last time I flew a glider it didn't have an engine...



That's not flying, that's falling in style lol

-Indy

[Dave Lobster]

That's not flying, that's falling in style lol

-Indy

CAN FLY!!!!

[janno]

Though I had an aunt who stalled and flooded her Humber Super Snipe on a level crossing back in the late 60's. She got pushed 1/4 of a mile down the track when a train came along! They repaired the car.

That's only because it was called a Humber Super Snipe. If it was called a Humber Rather Average Snipe the consequences would have been a lot more dire . . . :yes:

[SPman]

At the risk of offending some people (again), it is not always stupidity, speed, incompetence, etc etc. (although that would make up a lot of incidents) - lack of effective concentration on the road and your surroundings would probably be the main one.

There is the factor of recognition of perceived danger affecting the brain while you are concentrating on other things - a phenomenom seen often at intersections - the "I didn't see you" syndrome!
They often don't see you, not because they didn't look, but because the brain did not recognise incipient danger - movement out of the ordinary relative to the background. Not expecting to see anything dangerous, the mind will often just relegate it to a "not important" sector of the brain, not pulling it out until to late!

How can you not see a train, 4m tall x 3m wide x however long? Same thing - get used to an unregulated crossing, for example - cross it lots of times with no sign of a train and the brain goes into sleep mode - it's a low risk area and complacency can set in. Then, one day, yoiu may be thinking of something else,(as you do), your brain just doesnt bother to tell you it's there, you barely slow or check and BOOM! - just happens to be a train there.

Unless you cultivate a habit of slowing / stopping and checking regardless, being aware of your surroundings, so that you form a habit of overriding the "slackness".
It's almost happened to me twice - once in Bell Block at night, where it was only my son who said "theres a level crossing ahead", which had slipped my mind, I slowed and a freight train slammed across, just about where I would have been if I hadn't stopped - my brain had just not seen the flashing crossing lights!!!! Scared the crap out of me! And over here on a road with just a stop sign at the crossing - no visibility until you're right on the crossing due to bush - months without seeing a train, getting a bit slacker , but, in the light of the earlier scare, having made a habit of, at least, slowing right down as I approached the crossing and - sure enough - freight train at 100kph flashed across just in front of me where, if I had subconciously thought, no real danger and carried on at normal speed ........!

Many years ago, a friend was hitching to Welly. The car driver and he were having a conversation, down Levin / Otaki or thereabouts on SH1 and he noticed a train on the line alongside. This was before they had overpasses . They gradually passed the train, but, to his horror, as they approached the level crossing ahead, it was obvious, the driver was neither aware of the train, nor slowing for the crossing. Said driver only noticed the train was just behind him, when me mate yelled out, but by then it was to late to stop, so they sailed over the crossing, luckily, just front of the train. Lack of concentration on surroundings by the driver. He didn't even notice the trains horn!

At an unregulated crossing, in particular, it is concentration on driving and the awareness of your surroundings,that is important (as everywhere really) - and how often do you see that on the roads. You can have all the rules, laws and regulations you want, but, unless you completely seperate the two carriageways, you are still going to get collisions.

[sunhuntin]

i feel sorry for the kid, but have almost no sympathy for them or anyone stupid enough to get hit by a train. [except in the case of car failure, but even then you generally have time to get your ass out of the way.]

i spent my teen years across the road from a train station. wasnt often used during the day [mainly shunting] but still had enough there to make it interesting. i used to walk our 3 dogs there every day. only ever had one near miss, but it was miles away. ended up with me and the dogs sitting in the ditch, while the train did its thing 2 tracks over.

there are 2 level crossings on that street, both are signed, have bells and arms. i saw several cars go through the arms.... idiots. trouble is... the school kids can somehow mess with the box that controls the bells and set them off even when there is no train anywhere.

i dont know the crossing, but there is one somewhere up north... between taupo and bulls. very very sharp s bend, with tracks running through. sign posted low speed limit, plus warnings of tracks. even if you are looking at a hundred different things, youd have to be blind not to notice.

that poor girl is gonna have to live with the simple fuck up that destroyed her parents!

[kro]

The licensing system concentrates heavily on what a persons eyesight is like, and there are declarations, and eye tests to pass. If you cannot see a train, there is a problem.

If you yap to people in the vehicle, or on your cell phone, and you tune out the rest of your environment whilst driving, you are basically begging the Reaper to have lunch with you, and sometimes, that's what happens.

The road is for regular driving, not for fancy driving.

[MSTRS]

i dont know the crossing, but there is one somewhere up north... between taupo and bulls. very very sharp s bend, with tracks running through. sign posted low speed limit, plus warnings of tracks. even if you are looking at a hundred different things, youd have to be blind not to notice.



That is probably the one that set off this thread. At Ohingaiti.
There is also one a couple or 3 k's south of Waiouru.

[merv]

There is also one a couple or 3 k's south of Waiouru.

Waiouru one was turned into an overpass a few years back - that's the one the trucks used to try and race the trains at and there were some notable middle of the night altercations. Truckies used to drive straight through the barrier arms just to beat the trains - freight competitiors you know.

[sunhuntin]

That is probably the one that set off this thread. At Ohingaiti.
There is also one a couple or 3 k's south of Waiouru.

that could be it. theres a building there... wood. looks like a workshop/storage building.
i know the corner is sharper than what it first appears, and i always [the 3 times ive been there!] seem to be the only one following the recommended corner speed. i dont recall there being a hill, though. good visibility both directions.... ill have to check it out i guess.

[jafar]

that could be it. theres a building there... wood. looks like a workshop/storage building.
i know the corner is sharper than what it first appears, and i always [the 3 times ive been there!] seem to be the only one following the recommended corner speed. i dont recall there being a hill, though. good visibility both directions.... ill have to check it out i guess.

There is a straight on both sides of the crossing (ok the northern side has a bend before the straight). There is a pub on the corner next to the wooden shed on the roadside. Of all the crossings around this would be one of the better ones. Been over it heaps of times & never a problem, Mckays crossing was similar as you could see the trains clearly but that didn't stop idiots getting killed there either.

[sunhuntin]

that sounds like it. i actually like that bit of road... if the tracks werent there, itd be sweet to push the limit a tad.

ive learned: nothing will stop idiots from getting killed, except maybe devine intervention [which usually means an innocent gets killed instead!]

[ynot slow]

Wife and I both thought we might wait for steam train to arrive and take photos.The road is ok,never saw any marks on train to indicate accident,mind you weren't looking for any signs though.Another black spot is the Normanby overbridge,lots of accidents and seems everyone blames the bridge.

Hell there is a speed sign of 65km to warn people,the bridge doesn't speed up mid bend just idiot drivers.Local residents want changes and fair enough,but if you take it at 70km not 100km you have no problems.The bridge is static-cars,bike and trucks are moving.

Vigilence is something you can't buy.

[MSTRS]

Waiouru one was turned into an overpass a few years back Oh, haven't travelled that part for some years

that could be it. theres a building there... wood. looks like a workshop/storage building.
Yep- used to be a tea-rooms. With over-priced brekkies when the pub wasn't serving