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FruitLooPs
18th July 2007, 14:24
Hey guys, got me and the gixxer guys a bit puzzled (asked at gixxer oilcooler forum too). Fairly sure I know what I need to do, but i'll write up a summary just in case.

Basics:

1987 GSXR750 Oiler
91/92 slingshot carbs (oval intake/filter end, CV type) done by previous owner with appropriate DJ Kit, unifilters
aftermarket pipe

Problem:

Missing up top (8k on), backfiring on accel and sometimes on decel. Sluggish if i pull WOT from 3/4k, then picks up fine pipe makes a droning sound like its a car going uphill in too lower gear. Goes ok if i gentle/med throttle up to about 8k. Was flying up until 3 days ago when miss started.

Cyl.1 plug has always been far richer than 2,3,4 so carbs need work - but has been fine until now. Plug was fouled when i pulled it, put in a new and bike was fine for 500m then started to backfire again.

Pulled it, and gapping had closed (nearly completely) :shit: (previous plug had done this, and it was on 3 cyl because electrode touching). Still after regapping previous plug it never closed again and ran on 4 sweetly for a number of months, so i did that to the new and went for a ride - was nice and pulled it afterwards, hadn't closed. Fixed .. or so I thought.

Had fuel tank rattle so figured replace the front rubber that was worn out and switch my other 3 plugs to new NGK's too (I also switched cyl.1 for a new fresh NGK .. again). So I did that and stuck it all back together, took it out for a ride. Backfiring again, argh figured the piston or something had mashed the gapping again, checked and it was ok - hmm. Tried diff lead for cyl.1 and that was just as bad. Checked fuelcock back on after putting tank on but it was :yes:

Plug has carbon deposits already but isn't fouled or wet, electrode area is browned slightly (still rich overall though).


Checked:

Resistance for coils:
3ohms on ignition side for coil that does cyl 1 & 4 (cant easily get other)
Both coils 15,000 ohm on HT side.
HT leads 4,000ohms for 15cm of cable or so. They're multi strand copper.


So whats up guys, Reckon that the carb for cyl one is playing up worse than normal or the DJ kit is has worn the tubes - or still gunning for weak spark (seems nice when i earth to frame, blue and visible).

I just dont see why yesterday I had it all sorted after changing cyl.1 plug and today I cant get rid of the backfire under load or aggressive decel. :dodge:

Driving me nuts. Couldn't be valves surely right? It also sometimes coughs thru the carb which I thought was explained by intermittant combustion from the plug gapping - but im not sure now..

Think the carbs need a strip and clean, but it looks like that would be a bastard to do. Might be keen if it will fix it though. Idle is rough when its playing up too, its fine when I just start the bike but if i rev it out and let it drop back it'll splutter and sound like crap and barely idle. When it was running w/out backfiring it would hold an idle nicely - and before that when it was first badly fouled it would rise 500rpm from where i set it (have to adjust the idle screw at each lights lol).

compression test to come tnight :)

vifferman
18th July 2007, 15:19
Backfiring and the symptoms of it bogging under full throttle yet being OK if you throttle on more gently are usually symptoms of the engine being too lean in the fueling, possibly because of an air leak or fuel starvation (fuel supply being restricted somewhere). It could be that even though one carb looks rich, the others are actually a little lean, and because you're focusing on that one 'naughty' cylinder it's distracted you from the real problem.
The coughing through the carb though could point to a valve not seating properly - have you checked the compressions?

bimotabob
18th July 2007, 16:52
HI

Have a good read up on old GSXR coils and Igniters.
Many models had common trouble I think this was one of them.
Also the leads could be shot - age and milage take a toll.
A weak spark can cause all kinds of dramas.

Cheers
BB

FruitLooPs
18th July 2007, 18:18
Backfiring and the symptoms of it bogging under full throttle yet being OK if you throttle on more gently are usually symptoms of the engine being too lean in the fueling, possibly because of an air leak or fuel starvation (fuel supply being restricted somewhere). It could be that even though one carb looks rich, the others are actually a little lean, and because you're focusing on that one 'naughty' cylinder it's distracted you from the real problem.
The coughing through the carb though could point to a valve not seating properly - have you checked the compressions?

Heh, well i took it out tonight to get to 'operating temperature' for my compression test and it ran like crap for the first few mins and idled really bad as if there was crap in the carbs or something. Then it warmed up and ran pretty poor still hesitating a little wee bit but no backfiring, i worked through that and just gave it lots of crap after it was a bit warm.

Started behaving just fine, and idle came back to normal from crap ... so now for the compression test - keeping in mind the bike has 81,000kms on it.

I found the problem for cyl one at least:

Suzk manual specs:

min 114psi, standard 142psi - 199psi.

Mine cyl 1 thru 4.

100psi :shutup:
125psi
124psi
125psi

So I think I can safely account for the cough out the carb, so the valves not seating properly when cold viffer? Think that could be my backfiring and shitty idle problem too mate?

So do I just need to pull the rocker cover and tinker with the valves, maybe check clearances (haha $400 headwork done on it by previous owner prior to sale my ass - or poor work)..

Or is it down to the head gasket off with the head and have the valves pulled and checked. I forgot to try oil down cyl.1 but it doesn't blow any blue smoke or any smoke really revving it out which is good right taking piston/rings into account yeah?

Got the whole thing for 2.4k i'm not too bothered so long as it doesn't need a whole rebuild. My 150 was barely cheaper haha. Oh yeah spark plug for cyl.1 wasn't mashed ... but cylinder 3 was nearly kissing!?? heh ..

*edit*

ah crap, I've only forgotten WOT when testing it haven't I .. will retest it again tomorrow. Still guessing no.1 will be down on the others though.

FruitLooPs
22nd July 2007, 19:10
Right well I opened up the top end and did the clearances.

Specs should be 0.09mm - 0.13mm. With looser being preferred for longer service life between adjustments according to gixxer forum.

So glad I did, and it was a new experience for me. Anyhow this is what I got from them when we checked (my smallest gauge was a 0.06mm)

I got (keep in mind I just wrote one value for each pair, every one was off tho):

Cyl.1
In 0.07mm
Ex 0.07mm

Cyl. 2
In 0.06/0.05mm (apparently it was on the tight side even then)
Ex 0.07mm

Cyl. 3
In 0.06mm
Ex. 0.06/0.05mm

Cyl. 4
In 0.06mm
Ext 0.08

So yeah the $600 or whatever spent by previous owner getting the top end checked and clearances done was obviously spent well.. (i've done 2,000km since then). :sick:

So now they're all reset at 0.12mm and the bike runs noticeably sweeter. :yes: Oh yeah I noticed the lobe on Intake cam for cyl.1 was lightly scraped up :( i can notice the difference if i run a finger over the surface, it's pitted. Don't think its bad enough to require immediate attention though.

Pictures for great justice:

66635 66636 66637

However ... still backfires! yay :( went for a ride today to see how it was, and it ran like crap again - cyl.1 wasn't running. I turned it off back on revved it out and it came back and ran really well, and after leaving it for 2hrs too cool while at a movie it ran on 4 straight away.

Cables are rubbish i'm certain of that much. I took a look at one and it had blue corrosion (I only re terminated them 3 months ago!). But yeah things are looking up.

Wheeliemonsta
8th August 2007, 13:17
FruitLoops,
Throw the bloody Dyno Jet kit away and re-jet your new carbs to the same basic settings as those originally fitted to your bike...

This will get you "In the ball park" jetting wise...

From the sound of things you current jetting is less than ideal !

Pay particular attention to wear in the following parts: Slides & diaphragms, needles & emulsion tubes - the only option here is to replace anything that is worn with new parts

The Dyno Jet kits have there place, don't get me wrong, but what you generally find you do is end up having an engine that was already on the rich side form factory (ever notice how you can chuck a can at your new toy without having to re-jet the carbs...) running even richer & without the help of a dyno anything you do is only ever going to be a guess...

I'm convinced you'll find the bulk of your problem(s) in the fuel system - you are on the right track eliminating one possible course of the problem at a time & then re-testing the bike as a whole

Good luck & if you get stuck, don't hesitate to P.M me

Cheers

:rockon:

avgas
8th August 2007, 13:36
Hows the CDI? As i had the same with a GB and i found the CDI was half dead