How sad is this Labour Government

[bondagebunny]

That it takes out full page ads in the Newspapers offering state paid benefits to house holds on 70,000 a year.

ANd how greedy are the sad sods lining up to take them.

If they can't make ends met on 70 grand why the f**k should they have some of my money.

Labour needs to go and go soon.

[badlieutenant]

and the alternative ????? bad or worse ??? voting is bloody hard, its a choice of who dont you want in controll.

[Motu]

Yeah,let's get National in,we'll work half the time for twice the money,everyone will be employed and we will be a world superpower.Boot Labour out for sure,but look for no change apart from the names of those who line their pockets with voter money.

[jimbo600]

That it takes out full page ads in the Newspapers offering state paid benefits to house holds on 70,000 a year.

ANd how greedy are the sad sods lining up to take them.

If they can't make ends met on 70 grand why the f**k should they have some of my money.

Labour needs to go and go soon.

The hairy carpet licker who runs this country pisses me off too mate. Labour have rooted the defence force. Turned the police into a psuedo revenue department. Hard working folk like us deserve a tax break too.

National have pledged to focus less on revenue gathering traffic and more on serious crime. Works for me.

[Aucker]

Labour needs to go and go soon.i reckon they need to go too, but more because of all the bad laws they have brought in over their current term in office (eg. law & order, employment relation bill, drinking age, prostitutes & homo rights etc).

not too sure if the next voted government of NZ will be any better, probly not, but I just hope it's not Labour.

wot you being so serious for anyway bunny?

[Lou Girardin]

They all revert to type;
Labour just can't resist social engineering. They know what's best for us like all Socialists.
National will suck us dry to support their fat-cat mates. Don't think Ruthenasia has been forgotten.
ACT are the fat-cat mates
Greens? Cardigans and long dirty hair. Composting your own shit. I think I'm going to be sick.
Winston? I think I'll vote for him just because he assumed my name when he was young. (He wanted people to think he was Italian)
Dunn? Does commonsense have to be sooooo boooorrrring?
I want the McGillicuddy Serious Party back, the one political party the really addressed my concerns.

[MikeL]

... who has nothing constructive, incisive, innovative or profound to say, and has contributed nothing of value or interest to any of the many threads in which important questions have been discussed.
So the Labour government loses your vote because you think they're not spending your money wisely. How novel...

But don't go off and sulk, bunnikins. At least your posts have entertainment value.

[Posh Tourer :P]

National have pledged to focus less on revenue gathering traffic and more on serious crime. Works for me.

Yeah but they might find that they kinda need that money...

[Posh Tourer :P]

That it takes out full page ads in the Newspapers offering state paid benefits to house holds on 70,000 a year.

ANd how greedy are the sad sods lining up to take them.

If they can't make ends met on 70 grand why the f**k should they have some of my money.

Labour needs to go and go soon.

Remember it is a graduated scale, and means very little to people on 70,000 a year...

[TwoSeven]

I'm on 12k per year student budget :)

I find it a michael take what the government is doing. Basically paying people to have kids. And I thought social engineering was band in 1945.

Considering the sods on 70k will be paying 39 cents in the dollar on the last 10k of that tax. You'd think it would be better to just lower the tax rate.

A good government should do only what other people cant do. It should leave everything else alone.

[Posh Tourer :P]

I'm on 12k per year student budget :)

I find it a michael take what the government is doing. Basically paying people to have kids. And I thought social engineering was band in 1945.

Considering the sods on 70k will be paying 39 cents in the dollar on the last 10k of that tax. You'd think it would be better to just lower the tax rate.

A good government should do only what other people cant do. It should leave everything else alone.

The problem is that the divisions for tax rates have not historically been tied to inflation....Tax increases by stealth...

Re the last point, does that include saving for retirement?

[Skyryder]

That it takes out full page ads in the Newspapers offering state paid benefits to house holds on 70,000 a year.

ANd how greedy are the sad sods lining up to take them.

If they can't make ends met on 70 grand why the f**k should they have some of my money.

Labour needs to go and go soon.

Seem to recall something about market rentals for state house tenents. Yep that was National. That's why we now have people in state housing earining $70 thou. Like who put them there?? National

I see Helen is still streets ahead of anyone else in the prefered Prime Minister 'thing.' Maybe a little bondage session like handcuffs to keep you away from the keyboard. When can we start.???

Skyryder

[Zed]

... who has nothing constructive, incisive, innovative or profound to say, and has contributed nothing of value or interest to any of the many threads in which important questions have been discussed.
So the Labour government loses your vote because you think they're not spending your money wisely. How novel...

But don't go off and sulk, bunnikins. At least your posts have entertainment value.
Now you've gone and made me feel sorry for BB after that spiel Mike - that ride in the cold & wet must have upset you somewhat? :2guns:

[MikeL]

Now you've gone and made me feel sorry for BB after that spiel Mike - that ride in the cold & wet must have upset you somewhat? :2guns:

Yes, most likely. Upon reconsideration, I agree that my tirade was insensitive, unwarranted and downright churlish.

Now I feel a lot better.

[KATWYN]

That it takes out full page ads in the Newspapers offering state paid benefits to house holds on 70,000 a year.

ANd how greedy are the sad sods lining up to take them.

If they can't make ends met on 70 grand why the f**k should they have some of my money.

Labour needs to go and go soon.

Thats what I thought when I read that as well. I wondered if I had missed
something these past few years... for 70 grand to be considered low income

Labour is a waste of space

National makes sure the corporates & multi nationals get larger while the little
fulla in business (80% of business is SME) has an even harder time of it

[Mongoose]

The hairy carpet licker who runs this country pisses me off too mate. Labour have rooted the defence force. Turned the police into a psuedo revenue department. Hard working folk like us deserve a tax break too.

National have pledged to focus less on revenue gathering traffic and more on serious crime. Works for me.

Crickey Dicks, some people are easily pleased<directed at the last sentence>
The day a Poli or a political party can say something that is believable is yet to come, both major parties have proved this, just gotta decide who tells the biggest and mostest porkies

[SPman]

Labour have done as many crap things as good things and want to control everyone, National do more crap things than good things and want to control everyone. Act are a pack of wankers who say they dont want to control anybody but want to control everyone. Winstons party is a one man joke...and want to control everybody!. The Greens have some good things going but live mainly in la la land and want to control everyone, Peter Dunne is trying to appeal to everyone and is appealing to no one - and wants to control everyone!

So basically....we're fucked!

[manuboy]

Don't pretend to know that much about politics. And i try no to complain about things i can't control... but there are a couple of minor things i wish would get changed.

1) The amount of tax we pay on top of stuff thats already taxed. eg we pay GST on rates. A tax directly on a tax (or am i wrong?). We pay PAYE, then we pay gst on items that already have a customs levy....jeees!

2) For all the tax we pay, our hospitals / schools / military and roads all SEEM to be barebones items. Where does most of our money actually go?

3) An Aside. John Banks. I'll send somebody a box chocolate fish if they can ensure somehow i never have to see / hear that self obsessed obnoxious w**nker on my box Ever Again. He makes me wanna emigrate.

[wari]

Don't pretend to know that much about politics. And i try no to complain about things i can't control... but there are a couple of minor things i wish would get changed.

1) The amount of tax we pay on top of stuff thats already taxed. eg we pay GST on rates. A tax directly on a tax (or am i wrong?). We pay PAYE, then we pay gst on items that already have a customs levy....jeees!

2) For all the tax we pay, our hospitals / schools / military and roads all SEEM to be barebones items. Where does most of our money actually go?

....

BUtt ... at least they made a 7.4billiun $nz proffit ... :moon:

THats only about $2000 per man woman and child ... :mellow:

THey could do better eh .. . :spudwhat:

I wanna refunde ..

...

[k14]

3) An Aside. John Banks. I'll send somebody a box chocolate fish if they can ensure somehow i never have to see / hear that self obsessed obnoxious w**nker on my box Ever Again. He makes me wanna emigrate.

Amen to that, he rides a harley aswell, don't think anything more needs to be said.

[Devil]

1) The amount of tax we pay on top of stuff thats already taxed. eg we pay GST on rates. A tax directly on a tax (or am i wrong?).
That is incorrect.
Rates are not tax. They're a standard fee for services (eg, water, refuse).

[bondagebunny]

is going to stand for Parliament - It time that these wankers were whipped into some sort of shape.

[Blakamin]

That is incorrect.
Rates are not tax. They're a standard fee for services (eg, water, refuse).
Then how come I have to pay to get my bin emptied?... and I've got a bore...

[jrandom]

This thread gets 6/10 on the bondagebunny Troll-O-Meter, indicating that the jrandom keyboard-finger-twitch to its initial post lasted a good couple hundred milliseconds.

Now, for the benefit of some of the subsequent respondents, I can comment, as a 23-year-old sole-income-earning father of two, that not everyone who earns $70,000 or more per year is in a comfortable financial position.

I can also see some wisdom in the idea of handing back tax (whether by reducing income tax rates, or the less-efficient method of taking it, then giving some back later) to the middle-class breeders. A Government does well to view such a step as a long-term investment.

[jrandom]

Then how come I have to pay to get my bin emptied?...

Me too!

*And* the bin lid fell off into the truck this morning, so I have to spend the next week with an open-topped wheelie bin out back before they'll get me another one...

[Storm]

So we all agree all politicians are crooks and we are basically screwed no matter which way we go ?

[jrandom]

So we all agree all politicians are...

A bunch of mindless jerks who'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes?

Yup.

[Lou Girardin]

What/Who replaces them then?
Power corrupts, etc.

[TwoSeven]

On government. I would like to see professional politicians with business experience (in their portfolio field) rather than egos who remain clueless about anything. The current government (both main parties) is way too open to effective lobbying and protection of interests - simply because it doesnt have the knowledge to understand when its being manipulated.

I would like to see discretionary tax, that is - pay tax when you spend (so you pay tax, but get to choose how its paid), with a very minimal pay as you earn (to cover essential services). I dont mind GST as a tax - because I only pay it when I spend money and I get to chose how I pay it (by what I buy). But I'm against paying another 39c in the dollar on top of that (its what I pay when I work) simply because it means I have to labour for 1/4 of the year and receive nothing in return (local services are paid by rates and other indirect user taxes).

Also, if I pay for a private service I should get a discount (but not free) on the public service that I am replacing (should pay something as the contribution to society).

Private sector is way more efficient than public sector (by a factor of 2:1) but needs regulation to define the minimum standard it must conform to and also needs competition without government intervention (as its open to lobbying).

[Ghost Lemur]

A bunch of mindless jerks who'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes?

Yup.

hehe

Have you had a chance to listen to the first new episode yet?

Had me laughing and hanging for more. Not to worry though got my towel.

Keeping slightly (ok incredibly) OT: tried a couple of programs to capture the streaming audio. Both seem to work except there's nothing on the capture. Think it's in my settings somewhere, so I'm going to keep working at it as the first ep will only be online til Thursday. Hopefully I can get it sorted then I'll be assured of future listening enjoyment.

[mangell6]

Some notable acheivements of Labour, a large increase in public servants, more red tape, more centralised control, dependancy on the state, devolution of the family unit. Determined to bring everyone above average down to the average.

I prefer personal responsibilty, as in responsibile for your own actions, and a strong family unit.

[manuboy]

That is incorrect.
Rates are not tax. They're a standard fee for services (eg, water, refuse).

Hokay, i get ya.. but i just ripped this straight off the council website...


"Rates on a property are a property tax and are calculated on the basis of its capital value (rating valuation)."

This is why i pay more than the guy beside me who hasn't mowed his lawns since Mrs Clark last put out....

[Zed]

What/Who replaces them then?Very deep question Lou...I've got an answer for that one!

It's called the "Millennial reign of Christ" who will rule with a rod of iron!

Forget putting your confidence in man.

[Ghost Lemur]

Alright once and for fuckin all, can some shrude bastard kindly explain to me how Labour are erroding families?

How families are now all of a sudden in "danger"? What is it the giving gay's and de facto's rights as far as property split, etc go? How the hell does that have anything to do with a married hetrosexual couple and their children?

What is it the fact that you precious sparky could go to school with a kid who has two mums or two dad's?? Chances are they probably do (whether they know it or not). I don't see how one has anything whatsoever to do with the other.

By the way, erroding families? WTF is that, what is it cutting down the number of wife/child beatings that occure on a daily basis in this country? Oh no we can jepodise those poor hetro families, no matter how fucked up, dysfunctional, and down right wrong they are. But a queer couple wanting to make sure if things go west the starting point for the split is enshrined in law (yes I know there's more to it, legal next of kin, other things hetro couples take for granted, etc) and Oh Noes the moral minority start jumping up and down about the errosion of the family unit....

I'm sorry but I just don't get it. Must be a thickie...


Note: I'm not a "voter", but I was damn glad that we had the PM we have when things started in Iraq. If it had been English in there he would of just been another Blair/Howard lackie. Took a woman with balls to stand up and say "go fuck yourselves*"

*- In diplomatic terms anyway.

[scumdog]

Alright once and for fuckin all, can some shrude bastard kindly explain to me how Labour are erroding families?

How families are now all of a sudden in "danger"? What is it the giving gay's and de facto's rights as far as property split, etc go? How the hell does that have anything to do with a married hetrosexual couple and their children?

What is it the fact that you precious sparky could go to school with a kid who has two mums or two dad's?? Chances are they probably do (whether they know it or not). I don't see how one has anything whatsoever to do with the other.

By the way, erroding families? WTF is that, what is it cutting down the number of wife/child beatings that occure on a daily basis in this country? Oh no we can jepodise those poor hetro families, no matter how fucked up, dysfunctional, and down right wrong they are. But a queer couple wanting to make sure if things go west the starting point for the split is enshrined in law (yes I know there's more to it, legal next of kin, other things hetro couples take for granted, etc) and Oh Noes the moral minority start jumping up and down about the errosion of the family unit....

I'm sorry but I just don't get it. Must be a thickie...


Note: I'm not a "voter", but I was damn glad that we had the PM we have when things started in Iraq. If it had been English in there he would of just been another Blair/Howard lackie. Took a woman with balls to stand up and say "go fuck yourselves*"

*- In diplomatic terms anyway.

Some VERY good point there that man!!! - and you ain't a thickie.

[Posh Tourer :P]

Very deep question Lou...I've got an answer for that one!

It's called the "Millennial reign of Christ" who will rule with a rod of iron!

Forget putting your confidence in man.

A dictator then?

[jrandom]

hehe

Have you had a chance to listen to the first new episode yet?

Had me laughing and hanging for more. Not to worry though got my towel.

Keeping slightly (ok incredibly) OT: tried a couple of programs to capture the streaming audio. Both seem to work except there's nothing on the capture. Think it's in my settings somewhere, so I'm going to keep working at it as the first ep will only be online til Thursday. Hopefully I can get it sorted then I'll be assured of future listening enjoyment.

Could you PM me the links? I've been too lazy to hook up and listen.

[vifferman]

Amen to that, he rides a harley aswell, don't think anything more needs to be said.Yes, there is. It's not that he rides a Harley - it's that he's not a biker; he's a knob-end and looks like one astride his Harley, trying to look kewl but ending up just looking like an old, fat cat, poseur.
I almost wish I lived in the Auckland City electorate so I could vote against him.

And GL, JR - what's this about "the first new episode"? You've piqued my interest, but I've no idea what you're on about.:spudwhat:

[jrandom]

And GL, JR - what's this about "the first new episode"? You've piqued my interest, but I've no idea what you're on about.:spudwhat:

New HHGTTG radio series. Broadcast as streaming interweb-thingy audio, of course. Radio is for Old People.

[MikeL]

Note: I'm not a "voter", but I was damn glad that we had the PM we have when things started in Iraq. If it had been English in there he would of just been another Blair/Howard lackie. Took a woman with balls to stand up and say "go fuck yourselves*"

*- In diplomatic terms anyway.

I'll second that. Not just balls but a brain. Her skilful handling of this and other complex issues makes her, to my mind, the most intelligent and capable PM we have had in a long time. Too many people refuse to give her credit for her successes and resort to ad hominem attacks because subconsciously they resent and fear such ability in a woman...

[jrandom]

Her skilful handling of this and other complex issues makes her, to my mind, the most intelligent and capable PM we have had in a long time.

One does get that impression.

And at least our current Government have the balls to overtly pursue a policy of redistributive economics. Whether or not you agree with that (and disagreers, say what they will, tend to be motivated, even if subconsciously, by the fact that they personally would stand to benefit from less intervention) you have to admire the ideals embodied in the Marxism Lite demonstrated by the last Budget.

Funnily enough, one of my team members at work is on the ACT party list. If they get 10% of the party vote, she'll be in Parliament. And in spite of my efforts, I haven't ever had a single interesting discussion with her. Believe it or not, she views politics as akin to religion, being something that's private and not subject to rational defense.

Give me Helen any day.

[TwoSeven]

I'll second that. Not just balls but a brain. Her skilful handling of this and other complex issues makes her, to my mind, the most intelligent and capable PM we have had in a long time. Too many people refuse to give her credit for her successes and resort to ad hominem attacks because subconsciously they resent and fear such ability in a woman...


When you have seen real prime ministers and people of character such as Maggie Thatcher, Francois Mitterand, Helmut Kohl and the like, you realise how laughable and inexperienced our PM is :)

Its kind of like rule by opinion rather than anything else.

As an individual - yes I give her credit - as I would anyone that gets themselves into a lead political role (it takes some skill and charisma). But compared with others that do the same job - no.

[Zed]

A dictator then?
A Dictatorship, yes...but before He comes along there will be a New(One) World Order established under united nations. It's nearly here actually.

[James Deuce]

That is incorrect.
Rates are not tax. They're a standard fee for services (eg, water, refuse).
A fee collected by a Government, in this case local Government, is the very definition of Tax.

[Blakamin]

A Dictatorship, yes...but before He comes along there will be a New(One) World Order established under united nations. It's nearly here actually.


does that mean "The End Of The World Is Nigh"?
and something about
"the mountains of the Aarth"
:Oops: :Offtopic:

[Zed]

does that mean "The End Of The World Is Nigh"?
...
Nah that's at least another 1000 years away, but it'll mean the end of your 'freedom' to a point! All in the name of peace. The NZ government will be a mere puppet on a string...if they aren't already? :sneaky2:

[James Deuce]

When you have seen real prime ministers and people of character such as Maggie Thatcher, Francois Mitterand, Helmut Kohl and the like, you realise how laughable and inexperienced our PM is :)

Its kind of like rule by opinion rather than anything else.

As an individual - yes I give her credit - as I would anyone that gets themselves into a lead political role (it takes some skill and charisma). But compared with others that do the same job - no.
Yes but unlike the three you mentioned she is at least principled and prepared to take the good with the bad. Mitterand, and Kohl in particular, have been shown to have criminal tendencies and to have told some substantial lies about their past history and personal funds.

I do not agree with a great deal of Labour policy and am personally affronted by Labour's desire to turn our Universities into Business schools, and our Polytech's in sub-standard irrelevant trade schools. However at least they have a plan and a vision for NZ and NZ culture in general, something that has been lacking in NZ politics for a long time. I also agree that it took some fortitude to stand up and say on the world stage that NZ did not support the invasion of Iraq.

[Devil]

A fee collected by a Government, in this case local Government, is the very definition of Tax.
I have just said "meh" out-loud for your benefit.
:mellow:
Its like paying rent. In exchange for the council letting you live there, you pay a fee in which a proportion of it is to cover services rendered by the council.

Would you prefer to have to organise your own waste disposal, sewerage removal and water? (your answer may very well be yes! But its not going to change any time soon).

[Devil]

Hokay, i get ya.. but i just ripped this straight off the council website...


"Rates on a property are a property tax and are calculated on the basis of its capital value (rating valuation)."

This is why i pay more than the guy beside me who hasn't mowed his lawns since Mrs Clark last put out....
Yeah, nasty. But what are you going to do, part of your rates are for services (Blakamin: Standardised for everyone in a particular region), the rest I admit would appear as a tax. But what are they going to do, split the rates bill up? (maybe they do, I dont own a house, are you paying gst on part or all of your rates bill?)

[James Deuce]

I have just said "meh" out-loud for your benefit.
:mellow:
Its like paying rent. In exchange for the council letting you live there, you pay a fee in which a proportion of it is to cover services rendered by the council.

Would you prefer to have to organise your own waste disposal, sewerage removal and water? (your answer may very well be yes! But its not going to change any time soon).
We do organise our own waste disposal, Hutt city council does not pay or provide for it. I am also responsible for water and sewage reticulation on my property. Tell me how rates aren't tax again? Rates are tax. Lower Hutt City council charges me $2400 per year and the only service it provides that is recognisable and useful to me is the library. And I have to pay to use the research services or borrow a documentary DVD that I might want for research. They are using my rates to service interest on large loans for infrastructure projects that provided no direct economic benefit such as the Ewen Bridge, and the 150 million dollar 4 story carpark in Queens Dr that no one uses.

[Devil]

We do organise our own waste disposal, Hutt city council does not pay or provide for it. I am also responsible for water and sewage reticulation on my property. Tell how rates aren't tax again?
Ease up dude.
As I mentioned in my post replying to manuboy and Blakamin, a component of your rates is a (crap, my vocabulary has left for the day) flat fee depending on your region for waste/sanitation rah rah. Sure there are going to be people like you who have to take care of it themselves. Try argue it off your rates bill :msn-wink:
And as I admitted before (im trying not to contradict myself at the moment, my mind is on work) there is a tax component.
Do you know if you pay gst on *just* the services flat fee? or the whole thing?

[James Deuce]

Ease up dude.
As I mentioned in my post replying to manuboy and Blakamin, a component of your rates is a (crap, my vocabulary has left for the day) flat fee depending on your region for waste/sanitation rah rah. Sure there are going to be people like you who have to take care of it themselves. Try argue it off your rates bill :msn-wink:
And as I admitted before (im trying not to contradict myself at the moment, my mind is on work) there is a tax component.
Do you know if you pay gst on *just* the services flat fee? or the whole thing?

Thanks to a couple of law changes around the last election you can't argue anything off your rates bill. I've updated the previous post also. I most certainly won't ease up either. Why shouldn't I be righteously indignant when I can and have identified that more than 65% of my gross pay is lost to tax in one form or another?

[Devil]

Sneaky bugger, you edited your post.
/me goes to read.

[Devil]

Thanks to a couple of law changes around the last election you can't argue anything off your rates bill. I've updated the previous post also. I most certainly won't ease up either. Why shouldn't I be righteously indignant when I can and have identified that more than 65% of my gross pay is lost to tax in one form or another?
Heh ok, ill state now that I agree with you.
Im just saying how it is at the moment. Im "meh" about it because it doesnt affect me at this stage (not owning a property).
So yeah this is how it is, this is what the councils say it is (classified so apparently there is GST on it, which im trying to find information about) and there isnt much we can do about it.

Channel your irritation towards the local govt.

[James Deuce]

Heh ok, ill state now that I agree with you.
Im just saying how it is at the moment. Im "meh" about it because it doesnt affect me at this stage (not owning a property).
So yeah this is how it is, this is what the councils say it is (classified so apparently there is GST on it, which im trying to find information about) and there isnt much we can do about it.

Channel your irritation towards the local govt.

Thanks for that.

It's central government that legislated GST on rates. Peter Dunn is campaigning on removing GST from rates, but I don't like his politics or associates so I won't vote for him. Local body politicians are a faceless bunch of people who seem to strongly believe in the democratic process as she is wrote in NZ. That is once we're voted in, public pressure and opinion means nothing until the next campaign season.

I've put a lot of effort into trying to understand the various issues, parties, and candidates for the upcoming local body elections, and I have to say that I still have no idea how to vote.

I guess I should just look forward to paying my rates. :/

[Devil]

Thanks for that.

It's central government that legislated GST on rates. Peter Dunn is campaigning on removing GST from rates, but I don't like his politics or associates so I won't vote for him. Local body politicians are a faceless bunch of people who seem to strongly believe in the democratic process as she is wrote in NZ. That is once we're voted in, public pressure and opinion means nothing until the next campaign season.

I've put a lot of effort into trying to understand the various issues, parties, and candidates for the upcoming local body elections, and I have to say that I still have no idea how to vote.

I guess I should just look forward to paying my rates. :/
Yeah I will not be voting this time around in the local body elections. I just dont know who is doing what. They all look like a pack of fucktards ready to go on their crusade against *insert soapbox du jour*. I realise I have no right to complain afterwards by doing this, but I dont really see any results at all from staff turnover. *shrug*.

I will be on the nearest fence if anyone needs me.

[toads]

We do organise our own waste disposal, Hutt city council does not pay or provide for it. I am also responsible for water and sewage reticulation on my property. Tell me how rates aren't tax again? Rates are tax. Lower Hutt City council charges me $2400 per year and the only service it provides that is recognisable and useful to me is the library. And I have to pay to use the research services or borrow a documentary DVD that I might want for research. They are using my rates to service interest on large loans for infrastructure projects that provided no direct economic benefit such as the Ewen Bridge, and the 150 million dollar 4 story carpark in Queens Dr that no one uses.

you know something Jim, I am going to cease complaining about our rates, yours are worse!

[cycosis]

Yes that bitch has to go!But theres no one worthy to replace the maggot,were fucked..

[James Deuce]

you know something Jim, I am going to cease complaining about our rates, yours are worse!
They'll be worse yet when the buggers cotton on to our increased GV. It went up by 40%. I expect to be paying about 3200 soon.

[What?]

That is incorrect.
Rates are not tax. They're a standard fee for services (eg, water, refuse).
As is PAYE. Of course rates are a tax! Get a dictionary and look up the meaning of "tax".
And a tax on a tax is very strange, though not unusual. Look around and you will find numerous instances of it in NZ.

[What?]

I would like to see discretionary tax, that is - pay tax when you spend (so you pay tax, but get to choose how its paid), with a very minimal pay as you earn (to cover essential services)
Sort of like Monaco? They have no income tax at all, but HUGE sales tax. The downside is, all the rsidents are indecently wealthy, so we have no example of how that system would work in a country like ours. Nice idea, though...

[scumdog]

As is PAYE. Of course rates are a tax! Get a dictionary and look up the meaning of "tax".
And a tax on a tax is very strange, though not unusual. Look around and you will find numerous instances of it in NZ.

It always irks me to think that at best 24% PAYE plus 12.5%GST = 36.5% BEFORE you pay rates and other faux taxes, for those in a higher tax-bracket I suppose the level is up to 45.5%!!!!! :mad:

[TwoSeven]

For me last year is was.

39%
12.5%
------
51% on nearly half may pay.

Not good.

No wonder all the younguns bugger off. No point in working for nothing when you have a huge debt to pay off.

What pisses me off tho, is that I did a 6 month contract which paid a high rate of tax and also sorted out all my debts. The contract was terminated due to a change in the company and Winz give me a 6 month stand down because I earned over a certain amount.

They dont means test or ask for proof of what you did with the money (I had all the bill receipts and loan repayments as proof). You can starve to death for all they care.

you'd think if you pay for a service you should have a right to use it now and again. Not with this government.

Its not like I still had any money (all my debts were paid). So I had to live for 6 months with no income accruing debts again before I became a student and got student allowance.

Thats what annoys me with this government - the micro-manage everything and carefully craft ways of ripping you off. All their little micro taxes and indirect taxes have put the price of everything up.

Exactly what does the government do with all that money.

[Blakamin]

Exactly what does the government do with all that money.


They make a profit, then tell everybody, then give themselves a raise and.....
bugger it, i'm not going there.

when I got here from Oz last, I couldnt belive how crap minimum wage still was.

And this is meant to be a *labour* government??? :killingme

[manuboy]

They'll be worse yet when the buggers cotton on to our increased GV. It went up by 40%. I expect to be paying about 3200 soon.

Fa-aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaark!

I'm gonna stop complaining as well. By my calculations the council should already have installed a spa-pool on your back lawn, and probably provided you a gardner, butler and cook...

thats crazy money jim .... ever considered a mobile home????

[riffer]

For me last year is was.

39%
12.5%
------
51% on nearly half may pay.

... Exactly what does the government do with all that money. I can remember my grandfather paying 64% tax on what he earned. And that was back when you paid 64% of EVERYTHING you earned, not just on what he earned over a certain amount. And that was under Rob Muldoon's National government.

And George Harrison "If 5% appears too small, be thankful I don't take it all..." (Taxman, Revolver - The Beatles)

Tax is a fact of life.

As for what they do with it. Read the budget. It tells you what they do with it. And don't forget that massive surplus they're building up for next year when they bribe their way back in to power again. Don't think they won't.

[James Deuce]

Fa-aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaark!

I'm gonna stop complaining as well. By my calculations the council should already have installed a spa-pool on your back lawn, and probably provided you a gardner, butler and cook...

thats crazy money jim .... ever considered a mobile home????Get up here and run for council!!! That's a plan worth voting for.

It's not like the house is worth a huge amount either. It's about 20k under the average Wellington price. I am considering heading overseas either when I finish my degree, or to finish my degree if Vic doesn't hire decent lecturers to replace the ones they've let go.

[riffer]

Get up here and run for council!!! That's a plan worth voting for.
One of my old mates, Steve Cochrane, is up for council, so I'll be voting for him, so problem solved for me. Incidentally, he's a drummer too. You might just know him Jim - he was in Wall of Surf and Wazzo Ghoti for a while.

[MikeL]

So all you people moaning about paying too much tax - tell us what you think would be a reasonable amount to pay.

And then sit down and work out how much extra you will have to fork out to pay privately for the health care, education, public amenities and everything else that can't be funded any longer from the much reduced government coffers.

[Blakamin]

And then sit down and work out how much extra you will have to fork out to pay privately for the health care, education, public amenities .

Been to any of those place lately???? my cousin went to hospital a month ago and they sent him home. not enuff time for his op. then they ring him 2 days later and say he's been pushed back for not turning up.

geez what a good job they're doing there!

schools? by the time my daughters old enough to go, I WILL be paying!

and I'm not even going near public amenities... they're probably locked anyway

[ManDownUnder]

... I want the McGillicuddy Serious Party back, the one political party the really addressed my concerns.

Lou - you're barking mad - I love it!

My favourite was the McGillicuddy's going for votes with a platform of building the wall between upper and lower hutt "to prevent the invasion".

MDU

[ManDownUnder]

So all you people moaning about paying too much tax - tell us what you think would be a reasonable amount to pay.

And then sit down and work out how much extra you will have to fork out to pay privately for the health care, education, public amenities and everything else that can't be funded any longer from the much reduced government coffers.

Mike - I'd happily do that knowing that I am much better manager of that money than Central Govt. could EVER be.

[manuboy]

and I'm not even going near public amenities... they're probably locked anyway

:killingme :killingme :killingme

[ManDownUnder]

W're meant to be in a system of user pays right... and the way I look at it - I pay enough tax for 3 or 4 unemployed people.. soooo....

I wanna use 'em!

Paint the house, chop the wood... all those things I don't have time for personally...

Just don't touch the bike, the wife or the kids...

[James Deuce]

So all you people moaning about paying too much tax - tell us what you think would be a reasonable amount to pay.

And then sit down and work out how much extra you will have to fork out to pay privately for the health care, education, public amenities and everything else that can't be funded any longer from the much reduced government coffers.I already have to pay for health care. If I need surgical intervention and I didn't have Southern Cross I wouldn't get seen for a minimum of 2 years in the public system. We wouldn't have children if we didn't pay for Southern Cross and Fertility Associates, or two overseas trips to see specialists in the UK. I'm NOT rich. I'm up to my eyeballs in debt. The Government has a huge surplus that they are not plowing back into the country. I will also be paying for education for my children, and have used private kindergartens in preference to public ones. My choice and I pay for it.

I would happily pay the same PAYE as Norway IF we got the same services as them. They pay 53% income tax. They get cradle to grave health care (including dental) and education, though if they study at an overseas tertiary institution and then stay in that country they have to pay back the loan they got to study there. Sounds great to me. They also get 4 weeks annual leave and 10 sick days. There are Government owned time share holiday homes that anyone can ballot for, and solo parents are actually looked after with a priority on making sure that the children get all they require, rather than demanding that parents work as soon as possible and that they live below the poverty line. The problem is not how much tax we pay. It is the nickel and dime approach to removing money from tax payers and the ever reducing level of services offered in return, despite the current government actually growing in size in terms of employeees and "services".

[Ghost Lemur]

So all you people moaning about paying too much tax - tell us what you think would be a reasonable amount to pay.

And then sit down and work out how much extra you will have to fork out to pay privately for the health care, education, public amenities and everything else that can't be funded any longer from the much reduced government coffers.

You've got it. They want everything provided for them and yet low taxes. It just doesn't work that way.

BTW Tiggerz - You thought your stand down period was bad, just be thankful it wasn't under a National Government. Oh and you'd be paying a LOT more to study too.

Seriously though. Soon as I'm qualified/experienced, I love to bugger off with family in tow. But it's a hard road finding the perfect country. I like Sweedens society and people, but the weather sucks. Now if they'd drag the damn country into the middle of the Mediterranian I'd be there in a flash.

I'm really getting bored with this country and all the bullshit that goes with it. Moaning/Winjing that would put the poms to shame.

/RANT

[James Deuce]

You've got it. They want everything provided for them and yet low taxes. It just doesn't work that way.

BTW Tiggerz - You thought your stand down period was bad, just be thankful it wasn't under a National Government. Oh and you'd be paying a LOT more to study too.

Seriously though. Soon as I'm qualified/experienced, I love to bugger off with family in tow. But it's a hard road finding the perfect country. I like Sweedens society and people, but the weather sucks. Now if they'd drag the damn country into the middle of the Mediterranian I'd be there in a flash.

I'm really getting bored with this country and all the bullshit that goes with it. Moaning/Winjing that would put the poms to shame.

/RANT
Read my post. I've already said I'd pay more tax IF I get the services to go with it. What do you mean by paying a lot more under National? We haven't had a bipartite political system here for a while. Students paying anything for tertiary education means that the Government in question has completely missed the boat about how to develop an economy that isn't powered by primary produce or natural resource. Read some Richard Florida and tell me he doesn't have a point. The buying power of the average NZer in relation to the rest of the "developed" world is quite pitiful, as is what we regard as an adequate wage.

[Blakamin]

I would happily pay the same PAYE as Norway IF we got the same services as them. They pay 53% income tax. They get cradle to grave health care (including dental) and education, though if they study at an overseas tertiary institution and then stay in that country they have to pay back the loan they got to study there. Sounds great to me. They also get 4 weeks annual leave and 10 sick days. There are Government owned time share holiday homes that anyone can ballot for, and solo parents are actually looked after with a priority on making sure that the children get all they require, rather than demanding that parents work as soon as possible and that they live below the poverty line. The problem is not how much tax we pay. It is the nickel and dime approach to removing money from tax payers and the ever reducing level of services offered in return, despite the current government actually growing in size in terms of employeees and "services".


For once I totally agree with ya Jim2 :niceone:

[TwoSeven]

BTW Tiggerz - You thought your stand down period was bad, just be thankful it wasn't under a National Government. Oh and you'd be paying a LOT more to study too.


It was 2 weeks and I didnt need to be a student because I was too busy working and earning 'loads a money'. :)

(btw. I'm a tory - Long live Maggie :headbang: )



I agree with the norway thing. i think everyone would happily pay more tax and the like if they felt they were getting value back. The problem is, there is no perception of getting anything back that you dont have to struggle to get.

[Indiana_Jones]

Ah someone other people who hate labour :D
Labour blow, they're a bunch of commies, they need out.
But all my leftie mates like labour.......Arggggh :p

-Indy

[Posh Tourer :P]

Mike - I'd happily do that knowing that I am much better manager of that money than Central Govt. could EVER be.

even with economies of scale?

[Posh Tourer :P]

Ah someone other people who hate labour :D
Labour blow, they're a bunch of commies, they need out.
But all my leftie mates like labour.......Arggggh :p

-Indy

Care to elaborate?

Would you prefer your leftie mates to like Act?

[Indiana_Jones]

Care to elaborate?

Would you prefer your leftie mates to like Act?

na, national sounds fairly reasonable :niceone:

-Indy

[Ghost Lemur]

na, national sounds fairly reasonable :niceone:

-Indy

I take it then that you've managed the amazing task of having read their unwritten policies already. If not then how do you know their reasonable? Is it the way the look? The sound bites you get from your tv?

I find it interesting looking in from the outside on the absurd sharade that is democracy.
I find it interesting the for the past three elections NZ First has got over 10% of the vote, and within three months of the elections finishing, they slide down to less than five. That means 5% of the population DIDN'T THINK when it came time to vote, and immediately regretted it. A perfect illustration of what happens when you give power to the masses. You discover the masses are a bunch of fucktards who can't see past their noses.

The only people who get into positions of power are those who want positions of power. Doesn't matter if they get their by talking shit to the people, or by putting a bullet in the head of the previous dictator. Least dictators are easier to get rid of. With those sort of systems you either have it fantastic (life under Augustus for instance is widely believed to have been highly prosperous, ecconomically and socially. Even for the nations that came to be part of the empire), or you have a Despot. With The suits you just get a constant stream of gray, neither particularly good, nor particularly bad.

slightly OT: But did anyone see
this article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3666898.stm). Looks like the EU election monitors are going to "oversee" the US elections.... bahahahaha

Disclaimer: Not all of the above (if any, is personal belief. Rather a possible point of view put forward for further discussion).

[scumdog]

So all you people moaning about paying too much tax - tell us what you think would be a reasonable amount to pay.

And then sit down and work out how much extra you will have to fork out to pay privately for the health care, education, public amenities and everything else that can't be funded any longer from the much reduced government coffers.

Good troll!!

If all the lazy-arsed pricks that don't want to work as a choice and still hold their hands out for money would just get off their fat lazy good-for-nothing arses and get a wage-earning job our taxes may (a) be less and/or (b) used in more productive ways, i.e. better hospitals. :mad:

Has anybody figured out how many people earning wages it takes to support some leech who doesn't want to work 'as a lifestyle choice'? :spudwhat:

[What?]

W're meant to be in a system of user pays right... and the way I look at it - I pay enough tax for 3 or 4 unemployed people.. soooo....

I wanna use 'em!

Paint the house, chop the wood... all those things I don't have time for personally...

Just don't touch the bike, the wife or the kids...
Now there's some sensible talk! With you all the way MDU

[ManDownUnder]

even with economies of scale?

No - I couldn't match with economies of scale, but I think I can nullify that argument with the sheer amount of tax I pay...

and that's BEFORE GST

MDU

[MikeL]

Good troll!!

Well spotted!

Actually it's not entirely a troll, although the reaction was certainly predictable.
Although i'm sure there are inequities, rip-offs and inefficiencies in our current system, I'm a bit sceptical about claims that we would all be happier and better-off if only we paid a lot less tax. The ones that complain the loudest about taxation being theft tend to be the ones who have accountants to minimize their tax obligations...
I agree that there are lazy people bludging off the taxpayer. I just suspect that the extra taxation burden placed on the rest of us may be exaggerated. Have you any idea what reduction in tax you would receive if unemployment and sickness benefit fraud was eliminated? It would be interesting to find out...

[jrandom]

Has anybody figured out how many people earning wages it takes to support some leech who doesn't want to work 'as a lifestyle choice'? :spudwhat:

Let's see. We'll take the average NZ income, figure out how much tax gets paid on it, and set that against the standard unemployment benefit to answer your question.

From the Statistics NZ website, 'average weekly income for people in paid employment' last quarter was $762, or an annual pre-tax income of $39,624. The ird.govt.nz calculator gives weekly PAYE on this as $161.95.

A single adult on the unemployment benefit gets $164.16 a week.

If we make a hand-waving guess that, say, 20% of the tax take is spent on welfare, then you could arguably say that after all other public service costs are covered from income tax, it takes, on average, 5 people working to pay for one adult on the dole.

[Blakamin]

From the Statistics NZ website, 'average weekly income for people in paid employment' last quarter was $762, or an annual pre-tax income of $39,624. The ird.govt.nz calculator gives weekly PAYE on this as $161.95.

Makes me want to find an average job! :mellow:

[scumdog]

Let's see. We'll take the average NZ income, figure out how much tax gets paid on it, and set that against the standard unemployment benefit to answer your question.

From the Statistics NZ website, 'average weekly income for people in paid employment' last quarter was $762, or an annual pre-tax income of $39,624. The ird.govt.nz calculator gives weekly PAYE on this as $161.95.

A single adult on the unemployment benefit gets $164.16 a week.

If we make a hand-waving guess that, say, 20% of the tax take is spent on welfare, then you could arguably say that after all other public service costs are covered from income tax, it takes, on average, 5 people working to pay for one adult on the dole.

Naked arse!! so what you are saying is that the WHOLE p.a.y.e. from one average wage earner does not even cover the 'pay-out to ONE person on the unemployment benefit!!!! :angry2:
Huh, "benefit" - whose effing "benefit"??

[jrandom]

Naked arse!! so what you are saying is that the WHOLE p.a.y.e. from one average wage earner does not even cover the 'pay-out to ONE person on the unemployment benefit!!!! :angry2:

Precisely.

Good stuff, eh? Warm fuzzies.

[riffer]

I had a conversation with a mate this morning on this subject.

He is unemployed, and his wife is unemployed.

He is supposed to be paying child support on 2 children, as well as supporting 2 children living with him.

His wife suffers from depression, and is on the sickness benefit because of this. As he "stays at home to look after her" he also collects the sickness benefit.

He has worked out that if he goes back to work, he will pay child support and his wife will lose her sickness benefit.

The upshot is he will have to earn $58,000 per annum to get the same amount they currently get.

Where is the incentive?

[James Deuce]

Well spotted!

Actually it's not entirely a troll, although the reaction was certainly predictable.
Although i'm sure there are inequities, rip-offs and inefficiencies in our current system, I'm a bit sceptical about claims that we would all be happier and better-off if only we paid a lot less tax. The ones that complain the loudest about taxation being theft tend to be the ones who have accountants to minimize their tax obligations...
I agree that there are lazy people bludging off the taxpayer. I just suspect that the extra taxation burden placed on the rest of us may be exaggerated. Have you any idea what reduction in tax you would receive if unemployment and sickness benefit fraud was eliminated? It would be interesting to find out...

My desire to pay more tax was predictable?

I must have missed the point then.

[jrandom]

The upshot is he will have to earn $58,000 per annum to get the same amount they currently get.

Jeepers.

I mean, obviously the guy's not an evil slacker or anything, and no doubt his wife's illness makes things very difficult for them, but, I mean, hell's bells.

The equivalent of a $58,000 salary in his pocket, just to stay home with the wife and kids?

For his situation to arise, it seems obvious that the System is suboptimal. But then, I think every single-income working parent out there understands the lack of holistic strategy in our current welfare vis à vis tax structures.

[riffer]

Jeepers.

I mean, obviously the guy's not an evil slacker or anything, and no doubt his wife's illness makes things very difficult for them, but, I mean, hell's bells.

The equivalent of a $58,000 salary in his pocket, just to stay home with the wife and kids?

For his situation to arise, it seems obvious that the System is suboptimal. But then, I think every single-income working parent out there understands the lack of holistic strategy in our current welfare vis à vis tax structures.
It's very easy to get a sickness benefit for depression. The government has manipulated the unemployment figures for many years. Add the sickness beneficiaries to the unemployed and you will find that the amount of unemployed has remained the same for many years, unlike what they tell you. People transfer from UB to SB for more money.

This is not a totally indicative case. My friend has a $50,000 child support bill. This will cost him a bundle in back payments obviously.

Even so, When you add up sickness benefits, and accomodation supplements it adds up.

For the record, I currently take home less than he does after my child support is taken out. And I have to work. My wife stays at home to ensure our kids have a good start in life. Unfortunately that doesn't count for much nowadays.

[ManDownUnder]

For the record, I currently take home less than he does after my child support is taken out. And I have to work. My wife stays at home to ensure our kids have a good start in life. Unfortunately that doesn't count for much nowadays.

For the record - I'd rather your kids got a good start in life and I paid a little extra in tax - that's investing in our future.

It's pouring money into the present I object to (i.e. setting people into positions where they're better off staying on their arse, on the dole, with no excuse and no hope of ever getting motivated to put down the playstation console long enough to find a job.

...rant over...
MDU

[riffer]

For the record - I'd rather your kids got a good start in life and I paid a little extra in tax - that's investing in our future.

It's pouring money into the present I object to (i.e. setting people into positions where they're better off staying on their arse, on the dole, with no excuse and no hope of ever getting motivated to put down the playstation console long enough to find a job.
Thanks for that MDU. It was a tough decision to make having Gini give up work as she was earning a fair bit - but we haven't regretted it. You learn to live on less money. It's tough though, especially when some buggers have lots of money to spend on their toys and some weekends I can't even get out for a ride as we can't afford the gas.

As for my mate, he has an endless supply of playstation 2 games from the video store...

[ManDownUnder]

As for my mate, he has an endless supply of playstation 2 games from the video store...

**** GROSS GENERALISATION ALERT ****

... don't they all...

**** ALERT OVER ****

[Blakamin]

You learn to live on less money. It's tough though, especially when some buggers have lots of money to spend on their toys and some weekends I can't even get out for a ride as we can't afford the gas.


I know that feeling well... :doh:

[Warren]

The government is 42% of the economy. It does not matter if taxes are taxed again just as long as as the system is fair and the govt ends up with enough money to govern (Police, Roads, Social welfare, Pensions, etc). If you remove taxes the government will have less money to spend on those teachers and nurses salaries.

Overall the economy gets what it produces. If NZ wants 14,000 spa pools, 50,000 new houses....etc...etc...... then the economy has to produce that amount of stuff (Including making things to trade for other stuff overseas). You don't ever get anything for free.

One way to increace the economy is to get as much people producing as much thinks as possible. That means there are a vary few super ritch people and the rest have to work 60 hour weeks just to make ends meet. "The trikle down effect"

The other option is that everyone works 40 hour weeks and gets similar wages. Overall less will be produced so the economy will be smaller, but on avearge everyone will be happier.

There have been prostitutes and gay people for all of history. The labour Govt are not social engineering just giving them the basic rights they deserve.

[jrandom]

The government is 42% of the economy.

The government *eats* 42% of the economy. Economy is production, consumption and trade. If a large whack of consumption is poured into infrastructure and artificial 'value distribution' smoothing, then there's an economic concept of 'government' for you.


If you remove taxes the government will have less money to spend on those teachers and nurses salaries.

Have you read the Treasury reports? Do you know how much money the government gets as tax, and how much of that money it spends on various and different things? I have to admit I haven't, but I have the feeling that if I did, I'd become quite annoyed with parts of it.


One way to increace the economy is to get as much people producing as much thinks as possible... The other option is that everyone works 40 hour weeks and gets similar wages... on avearge everyone will be happier

Adam Smith idealised it. Without measuring the human condition and psyche, you can't truly begin to analyse an economy. In fact, the rigid classical models tend to fail badly in interesting and nonlinear ways. I think your point about everyone being happier under certain circumstances is more important than you made it seem, there.


The labour Govt are not social engineering

Well... yes, they are. Nobody said that was inherently evil. Making laws to control the actions of a populace is the only effective definition of social engineering, so... shrug. That's what they're doing. Specifically, they're arranging things so that people in relationships that don't fall under the definition of 'marriage' have access to similar property rights, which would, indubitably, have a measurable effect.

[Warren]

Well... yes, they are. Nobody said that was inherently evil. Making laws to control the actions of a populace is the only effective definition of social engineering, so... shrug. That's what they're doing. Specifically, they're arranging things so that people in relationships that don't fall under the definition of 'marriage' have access to similar property rights, which would, indubitably, have a measurable effect.

I believe that the previous laws were social engineering, trying to make everyone to fit into a christion view of society. Let people do what they want to do.

[jrandom]

I believe that the previous laws were social engineering, trying to make everyone to fit into a christion view of society. Let people do what they want to do.

Any governmental system other than anarchy can be defined as an attempt at social engineering.

*We* might agree that rape and murder are wrong, but that doesn't mean that we're not engaging in social engineering when we set up a republic that punishes such behaviour.

[TwoSeven]

I dont agree with the government tax policy - it doesnt work and is certainly not fair.

I dont see why I should work 50% of the year for someone else, and not be entitled to any of those benefits should I find myself not being able to work (like the company downsizes).

When my last contract ended I was debt free, but had little savings (after paying the debts I had 2k left). I had to pay myself $200/wk income for 5 months before I became a student and was able to claim student allowance.

Lucky I havnt purchased a house yet or I would have lost everything - the buggers at winz even checked my bank balance to ensure I didnt have any savings stashed away somewhere.

The simple rule - if you want to get ahead in life - dont live in new zealand. You'd have the same quality of life living on a pacific island somwhere. Great for retired people but rubbish for us professionals.

[rodgerd]

Has anybody figured out how many people earning wages it takes to support some leech who doesn't want to work 'as a lifestyle choice'? :spudwhat:

I don't know. What does working in the police force pay again?

[rodgerd]

A single adult on the unemployment benefit gets $164.16 a week.

If we make a hand-waving guess that, say, 20% of the tax take is spent on welfare, then you could arguably say that after all other public service costs are covered from income tax, it takes, on average, 5 people working to pay for one adult on the dole.

Unemployment is, of course, one of the smallest social welfare costs. It's the giant pork barrel of national super that hoovers down most of our money - last I looked, more than the DPB and dole combined.

At what's worse is that, eg, Bob Jones can claim just as much our of it as Joe Average.

[rodgerd]

Jeepers.
The equivalent of a $58,000 salary in his pocket, just to stay home with the wife and kids?


You, of course, won't be first in line to complain if he goes back to work and the kids grow up neglected, and run wild, will you?

[rodgerd]

Lucky I havnt purchased a house yet or I would have lost everything - the buggers at winz even checked my bank balance to ensure I didnt have any savings stashed away somewhere.


I should fucking well hope they did. They shouldn't be ladelling out benefits to people by taking their word for it they need them.



The simple rule - if you want to get ahead in life - dont live in new zealand. You'd have the same quality of life living on a pacific island somwhere. Great for retired people but rubbish for us professionals.

So why are you here? Or are you like all those bullshit artists who reckon being a teacher is the biggest, best-paid, laziest rort in all creation, but seem strangely uninterested in putting their money where their mouth is.

[jrandom]

Unemployment is, of course, one of the smallest social welfare costs. It's the giant pork barrel of national super that hoovers down most of our money - last I looked, more than the DPB and dole combined.

Maybe. Quote real numbers if you want to make those points; they should be available. I've grown wary of debating bits and pieces along these lines without actual data.

[jrandom]

You, of course, won't be first in line to complain if he goes back to work and the kids grow up neglected, and run wild, will you?

In this case, if he goes back to work, the kids will still have a full-time stay-at-home mum.

Of course, with both of their parents at home right now, they'll turn out to be twice as worthy as, say, *my* kids. Who only have one full-time at-home parent. So perhaps that $58,000-equivalent is money well spent by the taxpayer, after all.

Oh, I almost forgot. Their mum's Depressed, and therefore non compos mentis; heaven forbid I should commit the cardinal sin of implying that a Depressed Person should snap the hell out of it.

[jrandom]

I don't know. What does working in the police force pay again?

Nyuk nyuk.

Look, if you restrict yourself to non-obvious trolls, we'll get a better discussion going. So keep it in check, mmmkay?

[scumdog]

You, of course, won't be first in line to complain if he goes back to work and the kids grow up neglected, and run wild, will you?

WTF? Like my kids grew up neglected and running wild 'cos both their parents worked which according to your theory means they should be twice as neglected and twice as wild? :wacko: :moon:


Poor attempt at troll: 2 out of 10

[The Pastor]

Cut income tax and the dole, The dole should be barly enough to live off as to encourgage work. Down with income tax and down with dole.

[scumdog]

I don't know. What does working in the police force pay again?

Not anywhere near as much as the guy pulling $58,000 out of the tax-payers pocket and showing nil return of effort for the money :blah:

[jrandom]

Like my kids grew up neglected and running wild 'cos both their parents worked...?

No, dawg, that was just their awful genes coming through. :buggerd:

[jrandom]

Cut income tax and the dole, The dole should be barly enough to live off as to encourgage work. Down with income tax and down with dole.

Always first up with the subtle and insightful new ideas, eh?

[rodgerd]

Nyuk nyuk.

Look, if you restrict yourself to non-obvious trolls, we'll get a better discussion going. So keep it in check, mmmkay?

It was toooooo hard to resist, you know?

(But seriously, it is funny to hear government employees slagging off government spending, even if I do likely get better value fo my tax dollar spent on a cop than on a benefit.)

[rodgerd]

Cut income tax and the dole, The dole should be barly enough to live off as to encourgage work. Down with income tax and down with dole.

Oooh, yeah, that high-on-the-hog living on $160/wk (pre tax...).

[Warren]

There is a lot of information below about the Governments revenue and expences.

http://www.treasury.govt.nz/budget2004/taxpayers/

[The Pastor]

A lot of my mates are on the dole. They get enough for pizza and beers and weed, that’s all they want. They should get enough to maybe get one meal a day. Why should they work when they don’t have to? If I was PM I would get rid of the dole. Why should I pay for lazy people to live? It’s a different situation for sick and elderly people of course. I would create job that help the country like picking up rubbish from the streets, or washing dishes. Back breaking work that no one would like therefore making them seek easier jobs and better money. At least I have the balls to say what I feel with out worrying what someone is going to say about it. :D


Oh yeah I'd take away women’s right to vote. No one wants them to vote, except women - and they don’t count ;)

[MikeT]

Two bloody right. Not too worry though, they are putting up petrol taxes next year to ensure they have a large enough surplus.

Just so you'll end up paying for it while you're not working as well!!

[TwoSeven]

not everyone sponges on the dole. In fact that probably hasnt really been the case for the last 20 years - except for maybe a few that are unemployable.

Couple of things prevent it now - they make you work if you dont actively find a job, and if you refuse, they cut off your income.

In the 90s the dole was used as a transitive income for those moving between jobs or out of education and into employment for the first time. Often it was the only form of income. Since labour has been in power, its now almost impossible to get. If you have been in employment you can end up with up to 6 months stand down. You cant even get it when you finish studying - its called student hardship allowance.

Basically you have to beg for support now. Good old social government aye. They claim they are helping people but I think they do more harm than good.

Theres an old saying, you can give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach him to fish and he will feed himself. Vote labour and they will take away his boat and fishing kit and force him down a coal mine because he is no longer capable of catching fish.

[The Pastor]

I think you should get more for student allowance than the dole. Infact reverse the payments. The dole people get 180 or so and the students get 400 or so. Why should somone who is commited to getting an education and producing somthing for the country get less than the people who want pizza beer and weed. Its not right and fair. But lifes not fair.

The obvious answer is, The students will spend it on pizza beer and weed.

Maybe they should get more if they pass the exams? eg a 50% pass gets you 50% of the total you could possably get. Then there would be more students passing if they get payed to pass. Or they'd be more cheating either way its good, Uni degrees mean diddly squat anyways.

[TwoSeven]

That doesnt work. I dont know anyone who is a lazy bum, either student or unemployed. As I said, I think that view is just a misconception these days (although i suspect there is always a minority in any group).

Dole and student allowance is the same. $165 and you can apply for accom.

By the time you have subtracted rent, petrol, phone, etc. you get about 20-40 left for food each week. Not much left for luxury things like beer and 'weed'. Most people have huge loans or part time jobs to supliment income.

Taking more money from people just forces them to starve or freeze to death in the winter. Don't think thats what this country is about.

[The Pastor]

The Dole is around 400/week. I'm just saying what I know from as I know a lot of people on the dole.

[jrandom]

The Dole is around 400/week. I'm just saying what I know from as I know a lot of people on the dole.

Please, please, please stop being stupid.

I quoted the current unemployment benefit, for one person, earlier in the thread. Go back and look at it. It's not $400.

I am aware that there are further discretionary payments that WINZ will make to beneficiaries to cover accommodation and extraordinary expenses, etc, but there is no such thing as a $400-per-week benefit for an individual.

www.winz.govt.nz has the straight dope.

[The Pastor]

Yeah, my mate got 400/week when he was kicked out of his home so maybe it was more than one benefit,

The point is not on how much they get. It’s that there are heaps of jobs going. My mate wouldn't even go and ask for jobs all he did was look in the paper.

When I was in high school I went to the mall and handed out 20-30 cv's to any store that would take them, even those women clothes store (although I’m glad I got a better offer. that would of driven me insane, although I suppose you would get to talk to a lot of nice chicks, but there a dime a dozen anyways) and the next day I got a job. In fact I got 3 or 4 offers; I could choose where I wanted to work.

When I was in my last year of High school there was a job offered in the newsletter and I took it. There is no reason why you can not get a job and off the dole. It’s Fact. You can argue that it’s hard to find a job and I’m sure that some people will find it difficult. (Hell I’m and ugly mother who is about as smart as my cat..........)

The guy who founded KFC had a recipe that no one would buy, He had asked over 200 companies to sell his recipe until one very small company said yes, Was it worth the 200 "no" he received? Yeah. Try and tell me why someone should be on the dole. There is no reason. And that reason is treason