PC went belly up

[Street Gerbil]

Hello boys and girls. It is a sad weekend indeed because my computer bought itself a farm, glued its flippers together, crossed the rainbow bridge, and refuses to boot up ever since. It starts a boot sequence, begins loading XP, switches to the graphic mode, displayes the bootstrapping screen for a couple of seconds, and invariably goes into hard reset.
I have narrowed it down to either memory or motherboard (definitely not the CPU or software/HD problem), however not sure how to proceed from there. No new hardware. Not overclocked. Latest bios. Boots from floppy, but memtest86 bootdisk fails to initialize. Swapping memory modules yields unconclusive results (XP installation on a new HD seem to fail in a different place).
Any ideas?

[xwhatsit]

For a minute there I was going to give you a spiel about clearing all the dust and shit out of your computer, as hard resets occurring under heavy CPU usage are often caused by overheating. Dust and all that adds to that.

However once I read your post properly it sounds like you're no newb, and it's occurring at boot -- you won't overheat that quickly unless you left the heatsink off the CPU or something daft.

Memtest86 fails at which point? Does it get far enough to bring up the fullscreen text-mode view? This may give a clue to whether it's a motherboard or memory issue. I would suggest that if it gets far enough to bring up the fullscreen `main view' of Memtest86, by that stage the CPU has already allocated all the program memory for Memtest86, so it's unlikely that RAM failure is causing a hard reset at this point. If, however, the reset is happening before Memtest86 has even had a chance to bring up the interface, then both motherboard and memory options are still open.

Commiserations, man -- x86 architecture licks hairy nuts, we have to learn to live with this kind of shit unfortunately.

[Gremlin]

Swapping memory modules yields unconclusive results (XP installation on a new HD seem to fail in a different place).
Any ideas?
What exactly did you swap? new ram in, or their slots? Best thing to do is perhaps borrow some identical ram, that you know is working? Start with 1 slot used, and just see if it boots...

ie, troubleshoot the ram... you can't really troubleshoot the mobo, if its stuffed, unless your pc is almost new, you basically have zero chance of saving the installation of the pc (data etc (you say hdd is fine) can all be saved), unless you have some nice software.

If its the mobo, and you can't source another identical mobo, you'll just have to do a clean install on another hdd.

[CM2005]

Nerd Alert. I have no idea what that means, but whatever you do... Don't buy a Mac.

[klyong82]

Have a look at your motherboard's capacitors to see if there are leaking. Sounds like it. If it is leaking you need a new motherboard.

[Street Gerbil]

Memtest86 fails at which point? Does it get far enough to bring up the fullscreen text-mode view? This may give a clue to whether it's a motherboard or memory issue.
It dumps registers and freezes up right at the start.
However, it perfectly boots command processor from the XP boot floppy - indicating that the system is not completely fried.


What exactly did you swap? new ram in, or their slots?

Switched their places in the bank.


Best thing to do is perhaps borrow some identical ram, that you know is working? Start with 1 slot used, and just see if it boots...


No can do - dual channel memory :-(
I bought 2 new DIMMs from trademe but the seller has yet to respond.



If its the mobo, and you can't source another identical mobo, you'll just have to do a clean install on another hdd.
Tried that. Setup on a new HDD fails with the PAGE_FAULT_IN_NONPAGED_REGION blue screen.


Nerd Alert. I have no idea what that means, but whatever you do... Don't buy a Mac.
Like they say... In Soviet Russia.... Mac buys you.


Have a look at your motherboard's capacitors to see if there are leaking. Sounds like it. If it is leaking you need a new motherboard.
No obvious leakage. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Delphinus]

No can do - dual channel memory :-(
I bought 2 new DIMMs from trademe but the seller has yet to respond.




Just take 1 DIMM out at a time. Dual channel awesomeness just wont work, the memory will work fine though.

[Macktheknife]

I had a very similar problem some time ago, it turned out to be the video card had a strange fault, swapped it out and had no issues. Even the techies were sure it was a RAM issue. Do you get a clean POST test?

[Street Gerbil]

I had a very similar problem some time ago, it turned out to be the video card had a strange fault, swapped it out and had no issues. Even the techies were sure it was a RAM issue. Do you get a clean POST test?

Yep. Squeaky clean. Like I said, I can even boot from a floppy.
But thanks for the suggestion!
I'll try that when I'll get home. Who knows...

[klyong82]

"PAGE_FAULT_IN_NONPAGED_REGION blue screen."

That blue screen error is to do with ram.

[scracha]

installation of the pc (data etc (you say hdd is fine) can all be saved), unless you have some nice software.

If its the mobo, and you can't source another identical mobo, you'll just have to do a clean install on another hdd.

No offense Gremlin but that's nonsense.

[xwhatsit]

PAGE_FAULT_IN_NONPAGED_REGION blue screen.

<hints id="hah_hints"></hints>Well, if that error message is accurate (i.e., Microsoft wrote an error message that means what it says), then you almost certainly have a memory issue. With a bit of luck new RAM sticks will fix it; somehow I can't see a memory controller on the motherboard failing so easily yet other things remaining isolated.

The memtest86 behaviour corroborates this.

Lets hope that it's the cheap and easy fix it looks like -- new RAM.

[Sanx]

<hints id="hah_hints"></hints>Well, if that error message is accurate (i.e., Microsoft wrote an error message that means what it says), then you almost certainly have a memory issue. With a bit of luck new RAM sticks will fix it; somehow I can't see a memory controller on the motherboard failing so easily yet other things remaining isolated.

The memtest86 behaviour corroborates this.

Lets hope that it's the cheap and easy fix it looks like -- new RAM.

STOP 0x00000050 PAGE_FAULT_IN_NONPAGED_AREA

One of the more common blue screens of death. More info on it here (http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/windows2000serv/reskit/prork/prhd_exe_duol.mspx?mfr=true). if you can't run Memtest, the chances are it is RAM related, but it could possibly be the video card (is it integrated or discrete?) or even the CPU (Level 2 cache).

Drop me a PM, Mr Gerbil - last time I checked I've about 3Gb of DDR and DDR2 RAM lying about the place doing sod all, if you need some for testing purposes.

[Gremlin]

No offense Gremlin but that's nonsense.
you're welcome to provide some details. If you image the hdd, and try to dump it onto different hardware/replace hardware without editing install of pc, there is a high chance of OS BSOD'ing.

For me, its often more a case of labour cost to potentially get it working, with an unknown success rate/length of operation, against doing it right from the start. You can do any manner of tricky things, but success can vary, and generally, isn't worth it, unless you're happy to burn away the time finding the exact fault.

Gerbil, you can run one stick of ram, it just doesn't run as fast, but it allows you to accurately identify if any one stick of ram is faulty.

[scracha]

you're welcome to provide some details. If you image the hdd, and try to dump it onto different hardware/replace hardware without editing install of pc, there is a high chance of OS BSOD'ing.


Sorta agree...about 20% chance of going totally tits up. Normally you can just fire it into safe mode, erase most of the drivers then reboot and let it pick them up. Otherwise do a recovery installation. Worth the risk as saves pissing about reinstalling apps and transferring user files/settings.

[Lias]

you're welcome to provide some details. If you image the hdd, and try to dump it onto different hardware/replace hardware without editing install of pc, there is a high chance of OS BSOD'ing.

For me, its often more a case of labour cost to potentially get it working, with an unknown success rate/length of operation, against doing it right from the start. You can do any manner of tricky things, but success can vary, and generally, isn't worth it, unless you're happy to burn away the time finding the exact fault.

Gerbil, you can run one stick of ram, it just doesn't run as fast, but it allows you to accurately identify if any one stick of ram is faulty.


Sorta agree...about 20% chance of going totally tits up. Normally you can just fire it into safe mode, erase most of the drivers then reboot and let it pick them up. Otherwise do a recovery installation. Worth the risk as saves pissing about reinstalling apps and transferring user files/settings.

If the motherboards are identical or similar chipets you can generally do it fine. The most common reason for it BSOD'ing when you change the motherboard is due to the drivers for the IDE controllers. If your new motherboard's chipset uses the same or very similar drivers your sweet (IE from an old VIA board to a slightly newer VIA board).. If you say go from an Intel to a VIA chipset you cant just do a straight swap. Ideally you fire up the PC on the old board, change from the proper drivers to the generic IDE drivers that ship with winblows, and then it should boot on the new platform. Otherwise you reinstall over the top and it should go then.

[RantyDave]

Have a look at your motherboard's capacitors to see if there are leaking. Sounds like it. If it is leaking you need a new motherboard.
Oh, I had one do that, fucking thing. A couple of things about that:

* Dual channel ram probably implies newer than the batch of faulty capacitors that went through.
* It's not obvious. Leaky capacitors have a sort of domed shape to the lid - it's not like they (always) spew toxic shit all over the place.

Mine was a socket 754 from ... albatron? Was a long time ago now and said motherboard is now used as target practice for Tesla coils :)

Dave

[scracha]

If the motherboards are identical or similar chipets you can generally do it fine. The most common reason for it BSOD'ing when you change the motherboard is due to the drivers for the IDE controllers. If your new motherboard's chipset uses the same or very similar drivers your sweet (IE from an old VIA board to a slightly newer VIA board).. If you say go from an Intel to a VIA chipset you cant just do a straight swap. Ideally you fire up the PC on the old board, change from the proper drivers to the generic IDE drivers that ship with winblows, and then it should boot on the new platform. Otherwise you reinstall over the top and it should go then.

Yup...but this is Microsoft. Sometimes it just DOESN'T work :second: That's when you curse and swear about the 1/2 hour you've wasted doing the recovery install.

[Street Gerbil]

Ok, guys, here comes the update. Memory is fine (fsck you Microsoft for a misleading error message). My present theory is that the problem is either caused by the failure of the onboard SATA/RAID controller or by the system HDD. I've managed to install a fresh copy of xp on a HDD I pulled from a trash bin downtown last weekend. As long as the sata cable is disconnected (and as a result SATA bios is disabled) the system appears stable. As soon as I attempted to re-connect the HDD and load the driver, however, the system went into hard reset.
That sucks big time because it means that either my beautiful 10000rpm Cheeta drive is fried (not to mention two weeks worth of lost downloads), or that I am on the market for a new mobo, cpu, memory, and video adaptor which is a bit over the budget.
Anyhow, folks, thanks for your support. I will keep you updated about my progress.
Thank you everybody for your suggestions so far. As soon as my comp is back from the dead, there will be one hell of a bling distribution party:yes:.

[scracha]

That sucks big time because it means that either my beautiful 10000rpm Cheeta drive is fried (not to mention two weeks worth of lost downloads), or that I am on the market for a new mobo, cpu, memory, and video adaptor which is a bit over the budget.


Good excuse to get a core duo processor then :-) . Most Seagate drives have a 5 year warranty. If you don't know who your reseller was though you'll need to send it to Singapore (not that expensive and turnaround time is about 8 days)

http://www.seagate.com/www/en-us/support/warranty_&_returns_assistance/

[Delphinus]

I may be able to help you with that warranty. When did you buy the drive and can you PM me the serial and model number please?

[Gremlin]

As long as the sata cable is disconnected (and as a result SATA bios is disabled) the system appears stable. As soon as I attempted to re-connect the HDD and load the driver, however, the system went into hard reset.
want to run that by me again? What was the drive that you plugged in to install a test OS? Generally, bios setup wise, you run IDE/something, for non-raid (ie, most normal setups), RAID for RAID, and AHCI for very little (some vista may be compliant, iirc).

I don't think sata drives are truly hot swappable either, well, normal ones anyway. You also say load driver... what driver?

[scracha]

I don't think sata drives are truly hot swappable either, well, normal ones anyway. You also say load driver... what driver?

Certain NAS's and drive enclosures are but don't know any motherboards that allow this. All the mobo's I've used involve having to power down, remove dead drive and then fart around rebuilding the array.

[Street Gerbil]

want to run that by me again? What was the drive that you plugged in to install a test OS? Generally, bios setup wise, you run IDE/something, for non-raid (ie, most normal setups), RAID for RAID, and AHCI for very little (some vista may be compliant, iirc).

I don't think sata drives are truly hot swappable either, well, normal ones anyway. You also say load driver... what driver?

My mobo uses an onboard Promise SATA/RAID controller which I run in SATA mode. In order to use it, the system needs to load a low-level device driver (the one you install with F6 at the first phase of XP installation).
Basically, I installed the OS on the legacy ATA drive and it worked until I plugged the HDD in question and enabled the Promise driver in the device manager. The moment I did it, the system immediately crashed. I am still experimenting with various configurations to see if I can somehow salvage the contents of the HDD but at this point it seems to be a writeoff...
The best part is that I backed up all the data 2 weeks before the crash so data loss is unpleasant but tolerable. At this point my biggest headache is deciding whether to replace this thing with 2 36Gb drives and RAID them or to get one 150Gb drive. Those raptors are still too expensive around here...

[Gremlin]

I am still experimenting with various configurations to see if I can somehow salvage the contents of the HDD but at this point it seems to be a writeoff...
ok... I think I always assumed you only had single drives in the case, no raid. If thats the case, you should be able to plug the drive into a caddy, and connect it via usb, with no issues whatsoever.

Was the existing (and potentially broken) install on a raid? If it wasn't, then you tell the bios to run in ide. You only need the raid driver if you're running raid, and it needs the driver in order to detect the hdd arrangement, to install an OS onto a partition.

edit: also, you have ide drives, or sata drives? and have you looked at any jumper configurations?

[Street Gerbil]

ok... I think I always assumed you only had single drives in the case, no raid.
Yep. No raid.


If thats the case, you should be able to plug the drive into a caddy, and connect it via usb, with no issues whatsoever.
I thought about that too. Unfortunately I don't have the adaptor.



Was the existing (and potentially broken) install on a raid? If it wasn't, then you tell the bios to run in ide. You only need the raid driver if you're running raid, and it needs the driver in order to detect the hdd arrangement, to install an OS onto a partition.?
Alas no. This particular controller is not supported natively. Raid or no raid, if I don't install the driver, the system cannot access the HDD at all.


edit: also, you have ide drives, or sata drives? and have you looked at any jumper configurations?
SATA. Jumper set on SATA legacy.
P.S. It cannot possibly be any misconfiguration issue, because the setup worked perfectly fine for two years since I put it together.

[Gremlin]

Alas no. This particular controller is not supported natively. Raid or no raid, if I don't install the driver, the system cannot access the HDD at all.
no raid, to my knowledge is supported out of the box, not even onboard raid (which you said yours was)

because the setup worked perfectly fine for two years since I put it together.
thinking more in terms of data recovery, as you mentioned you wouldn't be able to get the data off it. If you can, you don't need to plug it in directly, but this sata mode is puzzling. If you're not running a raid, then you don't need the raid driver.

I'm thinking pop the old drive into a caddy interface, see if you can access the data. Try an install of the pc, on another drive, with bios set to IDE/whatever it calls it, no raid driver, etc.

What brand/model gear is all this?

[Street Gerbil]

no raid, to my knowledge is supported out of the box, not even onboard raid (which you said yours was)

thinking more in terms of data recovery, as you mentioned you wouldn't be able to get the data off it. If you can, you don't need to plug it in directly, but this sata mode is puzzling. If you're not running a raid, then you don't need the raid driver.

I'm thinking pop the old drive into a caddy interface, see if you can access the data. Try an install of the pc, on another drive, with bios set to IDE/whatever it calls it, no raid driver, etc.

What brand/model gear is all this?

That would be a good old ASUS SK8V. Not very impressive these days, but two years ago it used to be all the rage. I really don't feel like upgrading just yet, just because it still crunches everything I throw at it.
And yes, it routes all its HDD I/O via the dual mode onboard controller, which unfortunately is not supported natively (the one and only reason why my setup still has a 1.44" floppy).

[scracha]

Yep. No raid.
I thought about that too. Unfortunately I don't have the adaptor.

Alas no. This particular controller is not supported natively. Raid or no raid, if I don't install the driver, the system cannot access the HDD at all.


Is it just RAID 1 without any striping? If so I've used a Promise controller with SATA drives and the single drive was readable from a dell desktop straight from the BIOS without any probs

[Street Gerbil]

Ok, guys, thanks for helping me out. The saga is almost over. I've got myself a new 74Gb drive and everything is working fine now. I am still waiting to get the second one for the RAID setup. The mobo is perfectly fine. No core duo for me just yet.
Thanks for your advice, everybody!

[Gremlin]

No core duo for me just yet.
quad will be out shortly... we've also found out (don't ask how) that ddr3 ram is NOT compatible with ddr2 (ie, can't put ddr2 on a ddr3 mobo) ddr3 is horribly expensive...

then you have the new intel chipset out, new ram, lots of numbers jumping around (fsb, ram, etc) aye carumba.... it never stops :shit: