Second Rotorua child hospitalised

[jafar]

A second Rotorua child has been admitted to Auckland's Starship Hospital with suspicious head injuries, prompting a specialist there to describe New Zealand's child abuse statistics as "a national scandal".
As Rotorua three-year-old Nia Glassie recovers in Starship from critical injuries allegedly sustained after weeks of abuse at the hands of her whanau, a 12-week-old baby boy was flown to the hospital early on Saturday with suspicious head injuries.

He is in a stable condition.

Senior Sergeant Greg Sowter said the Auckland crime squad had been asked to make initial inquiries with the baby's family at the hospital.

Dr Liz Segedin, who cares for the small victims, last night told the New Zealand Herald up to one child a month was admitted to the Starship with brain injuries caused by abuse.

"We know it's high; we know it's a national scandal – or should be," she said.

"It's extremely distressing when we hear absolute nonsense stories (about what happened to the child) that we know are not true.

"It's hard for the staff but your job in the intensive care unit is to get on and do what we can and look after the children and families as best we can, as we do with any other child."

Dr Segedin's comments follow those of Maori Party co-leader Pita Sharples, who has been outspoken about the statistics involving Maori child abuse.

He yesterday said he was "horrified" at another alleged Maori child abuse case, but said it was too simplistic to blame the issue on ethnicity.

"How do I feel when I hear they're Maori? I feel ashamed. I feel guilty," he said.

Mr Sharples said the alleged behaviour in Nia's case was "absolutely intolerable".

However, he said problems of child abuse stemmed from a dysfunctional culture which happened among poverty-stricken and underachieving communities, a group in which Maori were too highly represented.

Five people reappear in Rotorua District Court today accused of harming Nia.

William Curtis, 48, a Rotorua driver, entered no plea when he appeared last week on two charges of abusing Nia over four months.

Four others, including two sons of Curtis, also appeared in court during the week charged with assaulting Nia – her stepfather, Wiremu Curtis, 17, his brother Michael William Curtis, 21; Michael Curtis' girlfriend Oriwa Terrina Kemp, 17; and their relative Michael Paul Pearson, 19.

They face allegations of abuse which include that the toddler was hung from a washing line and spun in a clothes dryer.

Nia's condition improved yesterday and her father, Glassie Glassie Jnr, flew from Sydney to be at her bedside.

She had been living with her mother and other whanau members in a house in the Rotorua suburb of Koutu.

A Starship spokesman said last night that Nia was in a serious but stable condition, but refused to say if that meant she was out of a drug-induced coma.

Prime Minister Helen Clark condemned the abuse and on TVNZ's Breakfast programme called for people to act when they knew of abuse.

"I cannot believe that a child subjected to that level of horror, sadism, torture - that nobody knew," she said.

"I can't believe that and people have got to start turning in those who frankly are maiming and killing our children."

On Newstalk ZB, Miss Clark agreed the Maori abuse figures were concerning but said the problem was one for the whole of New Zealand.

"They (statistics) are not good and that is a cause for Maori to reflect on and I believe act on.

"Us lecturing people won't get the results we need, which is far fewer small children subjected to this sadism, torture and horror that small children in our country have been subjected to." - NZPA

[JimO]

they act like animals they should be treated like animals

[Nasty]

they act like animals they should be treated like animals

I think putting them down is too easy .. .they don't get to suffer for the )@#$#@($ups.

[ManDownUnder]

They made the problem - they can help with the restoration.

Any help the kids are going to need in their strive to being as normal/functional/undamaged as they can be needs to come out of the lowlife's pay packet. Breaking rocks gets to pay something towards it... surely. They don't excape justice of course... but after they've done their time - they have to live with what they've done.

If it's appropriate for the absconding parent to pay alimony (and I firmly believe that it is)... then why shouold the bad guys not have to pay for the additional support and upkeep costs they're heaped onto another? For life? HELL YES

[Maha]

Ford Blockers aye?....who'd live there!!... fuck i use to hate driving through there, god forbid getting a flat tyre....:shit:

[Stickchick]

I think putting them down is too easy .. .they don't get to suffer for the )@#$#@($ups.

I have to agree with you on that one!!!!

[Albino]

Social policies that financially reward people to have children contribute to problems like this. People should only become parents because they value the love and experience of parenting. Our current system encourages those who normally wouldn’t want kids to do so for more benefit money (ie the animals and dregs of society).

[Dilligaf]

Unfortunately I think Albino has a point. I remember one of the other little kids who copped the bash, who had quite happily been living with other people, was brought home to "Mummy" because she realised what extra dosh she was entitled to with him living with her.

I must admit this is one thing that always surprises me and what I think is the biggest difference I notice between Australia and New Zealand. And that is the underclass here is a) more visible, b) there are more underclass here and c) how menace filled the underclass seems.
Before we moved here, we were on holiday and I remember marvelling that there was an honesty box at a petrol station on the West Coast (South Island).
Since moving here I can see in the 2 and a half years that we've lived here how ghetto-ish some neighbourhoods have become and how I worry about my personal safety more than I ever did living in Qld.

[Pussy]

Ford Blockers aye?....who'd live there!!... fuck i use to hate driving through there, god forbid getting a flat tyre....:shit:

Not Ford block.... a few kms from there, more towards Kawaha Point.
There is NO excuse for this abuse

[Mystery]

These people are not human or animal! They are pure evil!!

I cannot believe that anyone could use and torture a child for entertainment! It makes me sick!

I have found, that in every group/whanau/family there is at least one person who knows right from wrong and cant understand how they could stand by and know this was happening to an innocent child. I for one, just could not do it!

[Edbear]

If it's appropriate for the absconding parent to pay alimony (and I firmly believe that it is)... then why shouold the bad guys not have to pay for the additional support and upkeep costs they're heaped onto another?


Now there's an interesting idea...:yes:

[Conquiztador]

There is something missing in ppl that can do this to small children. A piece of them is not there. How can you otherwise explain what they do? How can someone find enjoyment in the suffering of a small child?

Something I truly believe in is, that if we all take care of our own children, then most, if not all, problems would disappear.

[Guitana]

Bring back Capital punishment I say kiwis are getting too soft on crims!!!!
These kiddie bashers need to be put on spin cycle for an hour in an industrial clothes dryer before theyre sent to jail and the public get to watch!!!
The gangs should do society a favour and when these scum get to jail hook em up with a good prison beating see if theyre keen to lay a hand on the kiddies after that!!!!


SCUM!!!!!!!!

[98tls]

Just watching close up on TV1,after listening to the sisterhood of spread the love/whanau blah blah blah crap i turned the tele off,these people want the foreshore they want the sea the sky and every other fucken thing and now they want the rest of us to take responsibility for what they do to there children,when is enough enough ?only one person in that segment made any sense and that was the maori lady who basically said bugger all the wider family/whanau shit what about people standing up and taking responsibility for there own lives :gob:rant over,just had enough.

[scumdog]

15% of the population, 60% of the cases of child abuse, do the maths....

The seniors of that group need to step forwards.

[chanceyy]

I just feel absolutely sorry for the kids ... they never ask to be born & everyone who sees & allows this disgusting behaviour to happen are just as guilty as those who are doing the abuse ..

there is more to it than race, & poverty ...


all children deserve to have a carefree exisitance with unconditional love ...

[ali]

[QUOTE=Mystery;1151497]These people are not human or animal! They are pure evil!!

QUOTE]

Tend to agree with your evil comment, It was my comment to our 9 year old during the news tonight.

There are more than just those who carried out these attacks to blame, neighbours, extended family etc, surely must have had an idea that this was going on.

I realise people fear retribution, however we have a duty to protect children by not being silent when we see this level of offending happening.

However, will this just be another case of lots of " posturing " from the media, politicians ( and us ) this tragedy no doubt, will soon be forgotten by most, until another child is bludgeoned by some murdering bastard.

[sunhuntin]

I just feel absolutely sorry for the kids ... they never ask to be born & everyone who sees & allows this disgusting behaviour to happen are just as guilty as those who are doing the abuse ..

there is more to it than race, & poverty ...


all children deserve to have a carefree exisitance with unconditional love ...

agreed. i dunno what can be done though... aside from mass sterilisation [that can be reversed at a suitable time if requested]. these babies will keep being born, and these babies will keep being hurt, brain damaged or dead. i always say, the ones that die are lucky, as they no longer have to live with pain, and neither will any kids they may have had.

[chanceyy]

There are more than just those who carried out these attacks to blame, neighbours, extended family etc, surely must have had an idea that this was going on.

I realise people fear retribution, however we have a duty to protect children by not being silent when we see this level of offending happening.

However, will this just be another case of lots of " posturing " from the media, politicians ( and us ) this tragedy no doubt, will soon be forgotten by most, until another child is bludgeoned by some murdering bastard.

well said ... to stand by and endorse or allow this to happen is beyond sick .. & your just as guilty as those who are doing the physical abuse

[MisterD]

Totally agree, remember after the Kahui thing, that Sharples bloke on the box crying and saying "we've got to take action".....and what has happened since then? Sweet F.A.

[chanceyy]

agreed. i dunno what can be done though... aside from mass sterilisation [that can be reversed at a suitable time if requested]. these babies will keep being born, and these babies will keep being hurt, brain damaged or dead. i always say, the ones that die are lucky, as they no longer have to live with pain, and neither will any kids they may have had.

we are all having a hand in creating the society that enables this behaviour ... what is the solution ... partially stop burying our heads in the sand & taking a more proactive approach in protecting the children ..

there are so many childless couples who would give these children a wonderful home, perhaps its time for the big brother syndrome again .. abuse a kid & you lose the right to have anymore .. get preggers & its given to a loving home ..

yeah yeah yeah i know we live in a fantasy world .. but those kids are living in absolute hell .......

[RantyDave]

15% of the population, 60% of the cases of child abuse, do the maths....
The probability of a particular family/whanau/community abusing their children is eight and a half times higher if they're Maori.

But it's not their fault, no no. Evil Pakeha came and forced Maori to beat their children. Then Pakeha gave Maori untold zillions of dollars to buy tumble dryers with.

Dave

[canarlee]

hmm the elders?

i think they could be the ones to blame yes.


here is what i think is happening: someone told me before that there is not one true 100% maori in existence!

now if that is the case, what is to stop some of these elders from brainwashing parts of the maori communties into interbreeding?

it is easy done, as we see with religeous groups (mainly catholic and latterly muslims to become suicide bombers etc)!

in their eyes, the interbreeeding will eventually make the bloodline more pure and more "true" maori??? thinking that this will give them more status and therefore more power???

now if, and its a big if that has been happening what are the side effects of interbreeding?

defected babies! thats what. it has been proven* that something like 85% of all babies born to interbreeding are born with major "defects". the majority of those 85% are mentally affected!

now just if that has been happening (and i am not hinting at it either) than that sure would explain a helluva lot!



*the "proof" comes from a doctor that i had an 'interesting' conversation with a couple of years ago.


just musing......

[Skunk]

How about a license to breed? We have one to get married, drive a car, own a firearm... Anyone breeding without a licence is sterilised.

It's not like breeding is a God given right you know.

[98tls]

How about we have national service at 18.......no excuses,some hard work and instill a bit of pride in young people would work wonders i believe,but no we would rather give them the dole and a playstation.:angry:

[chanceyy]

How about we have national service at 18.......no excuses,some hard work and instill a bit of pride in young people would work wonders i believe,but no we would rather give them the dole and a playstation.:angry:

must spread rep again blah blah blah ... but agree with this one 98 ...

[NighthawkNZ]

How about we have national service at 18.......no excuses,some hard work and instill a bit of pride in young people would work wonders i believe,but no we would rather give them the dole and a playstation.:angry:

I actually agree with that...

[98tls]

I actually agree with that... mate,dont sound so surprised...

[pete376403]

Could it be anything to do with the way the maori always portray themselves as a "warrior" race, do a war dance (haka) at the slightest provocation, the whole culture seems to be about glorying in past wars and killing. Any wonder some of them take it seriously?

[u4ea]

How about we have national service at 18.......no excuses,some hard work and instill a bit of pride in young people would work wonders i believe,but no we would rather give them the dole and a playstation.:angry:

Dunno if it would work for the females tho..they'de just get pregnant so they didnt have to do it and just keep on breeding to earn an income......its a mentality thing....regardless of sex or race...

[98tls]

Could it be anything to do with the way the maori always portray themselves as a "warrior" race, do a war dance (haka) at the slightest provocation, the whole culture seems to be about glorying in past wars and killing. Any wonder some of them take it seriously? Maybe.......they need to remind themselves that they lost and sold up.

[kro]

As I have stated exhaustively in other threads, if the government stopped paying women with no long term partner, or spouse, to have babies, this would disappear. Two of those panelists on that show this evening acknowledged the welfare system needed changing. Hurrah, maybe there is hope

These recent battered and killed children are likely alcohol and drug money, and have little other value to the people involved. I don't know about the race aspect, I don't have the figures, and won't comment, as I have seen this in other ethnicities too.

Why do we foster women to raise fatherless families?, and pay them out exorbitant amounts of money to do it?. Feminists may say what they want, but men are the calming and discipline influence of the family, and without them, the children are deprived of a huge part of their development.

If you're going to do something for the children, make sure they have dads.

[NotaGoth]

Just watching close up on TV1,after listening to the sisterhood of spread the love/whanau blah blah blah crap i turned the tele off,these people want the foreshore they want the sea the sky and every other fucken thing and now they want the rest of us to take responsibility for what they do to there children,when is enough enough ?only one person in that segment made any sense and that was the maori lady who basically said bugger all the wider family/whanau shit what about people standing up and taking responsibility for there own lives :gob:rant over,just had enough.

Understand completely how you feel... Seeing alot of the attitudes made me so angry...


The probability of a particular family/whanau/community abusing their children is eight and a half times higher if they're Maori.

But it's not their fault, no no. Evil Pakeha came and forced Maori to beat their children. Then Pakeha gave Maori untold zillions of dollars to buy tumble dryers with.

Dave


Most who were interveiwed blamed everyone but themselves.. Some blamed Europeans, what the hell is that about...?
Forget about the seabed and forshore and start thinking about things that are more important...

Take responsibility when it comes to the damn well facts... And stop pointing the finger and hoping the problem will just go away..

Oh and by the way.... I don't agree with being called a Pakeha its about as racist as calling them a nigger.

[judecatmad]

Social policies that financially reward people to have children contribute to problems like this. People should only become parents because they value the love and experience of parenting. Our current system encourages those who normally wouldn’t want kids to do so for more benefit money (ie the animals and dregs of society).

So very well said.

So sad that the kids brought into life by those people have to suffer.

Take the kids away and then sterilise the parents and anyone who stood by and watched it happen without saying a peep. It'd never be allowed of course, but it's a nice ideal and it would mean no other innocent lives have to suffer at their hands.

[Winston001]

It's not like breeding is a God given right you know.

Ummmm......well actually it is the most primary genetic drive (after food and pure survival).

But I know what you mean. China has a one-child policy where you get taxed for second children.

[Winston001]

Science fiction has long predicted a world where we have to apply for the right to have a child. Given the world's current population explosion, those days must be drawing near.

[LilSel]

Shoot the bastards!!! putting a child in the dryer??!! WTF!!! :mad::angry2:
It makes me sick to my stomach!!

[MD]

Helen Clark has formed an urgent Commission of enquiry tasked to ensure that Mercury Energy is found responsible for this child abuse.
It worked for her last time. This way she can blame her two pet hates; whities who dare to work for a living and people who strive to run a business.

And she annouced that Sue Bradford will receive a Honours award because this is clear evidence that her anti-smacking bill has worked. Stupid Sue, if only she had included a sub-clause reference to abuse with general household whiteware or structures commonly used in the evaporation of moisture from clothing? Clearly we need more anti-this and that Bills from the Labour Govt and all our problems will go away.
Excuse my sarcasm, I'm just fed up with reading the same crap time and again, from the same crappers hiding behind the same crap excuses.

[peasea]

Some sensible comments are being made here and I think they reflect what the nation feels as a whole.

For Sharples to get on national TV (Close up, tonight) and say "it's not a Maori problem" just goes to show how blinkered some Maoris are to their own demise.

I have no idea how to fix the problem of child abuse and it's not entirely (although it appears to be largely) Maori-oriented, just as 'general' crime is. At least that's how the stat's see it.

Why is it that I can get my sorry arse out of bed in the morning and get a day's work done and some people can't. (And I don't mean those in true need either.....) Where is the switch on the back of the head that gets turned on in the morning? I think it's on the inside and was installed by my parents, to who I am eternally grateful. I hated being whacked on the back of the legs with a wooden stick but I had some respect for my olds and I haven't been locked up (yet) and I have earned everything I have in this world. Starting from scratch at 44 (six years ago) wasn't easy either, but I wasn't going to be sitting on my bum on some father's DPB for the rest of my life. I have too much pride for that and my daughters don't need a loser for a father.

Whittle the benefits down, make them work for the dole, filling potholes or whatever and solo mums should be working part time when junior goes to school; get pregnant again and you lose the kid to a foster home. Some pride needs to be restored and some personal accountability too.

Too many people on benefits doesn't help anything or anyone.

[peasea]

Shoot the bastards!!! putting a child in the dryer??!! WTF!!! :mad::angry2:
It makes me sick to my stomach!!

Starting with the mother for leaving her child in the care of a known gang-connected punch-thrower.

[Grahameeboy]

It's not just NZ guys

Australia

How many reports of child abuse are made in Australia each year?
The most recent national figures from AIHW indicate that in Australia during 2002-2003 there were 198,355 reports of suspected cases of child abuse and neglect made to state authorities. This figure has risen significantly over the last five years from 91,734 reports in 1995-1996. These figures do not necessarily mean that the actual occurrence of child abuse and neglect has increased over this time, but they do show that the reporting of cases to child protection services has increased.

UK

7% of children experienced serious physical abuse at the hands of their parents or carers during childhood.
1% of children experienced sexual abuse by a parent or carer and another 3% by another relative during childhood.
11% of children experienced sexual abuse by people known but unrelated to them. 5% of children experienced sexual abuse by an adult stranger or someone they had just met'.
6% of children experienced serious absence of care at home during childhood.
6% of children experienced frequent and severe emotional maltreatment during childhood.

Japan

New figures in Japan show the number of child abuse cases has risen significantly.
The health ministry says the number has risen above 30-thousand for the first time, that's six thousand more than for the same time last year.
The ministry says most cases of abuse in Japan involve violence or neglect, with two-thirds committed by the mother.
It says stricter laws on reporting abuse has contributed to the rise.

[peasea]

It's not just NZ guys


I don't think anyone is saying that it is, it's just that here it tends to be over-represented in the stat's by Maori. IMHO I feel that their status as a warrior race doesn't help; trying to be the tough guy etc. Or is that too simplistic?

[Grahameeboy]

I don't think anyone is saying that it is, it's just that here it tends to be over-represented in the stat's by Maori. IMHO I feel that their status as a warrior race doesn't help; trying to be the tough guy etc. Or is that too simplistic?

I know but sometimes it comes across that way.

Tough guy...well look at Japan..........through the centuries, kids have been abused so maybe it is just a sad face of the human race.

Difficult to just look at Maori though when they are also at the lower end of the social ecomonic status.....I know that is a generalisation but maybe this is as much the issue than race, colour, culture...I mean whites beat on kids in the UK and poverty is a key element.

[Finn]

It's not just NZ guys

Australia

How many reports of child abuse are made in Australia each year?
The most recent national figures from AIHW indicate that in Australia during 2002-2003 there were 198,355 reports of suspected cases of child abuse and neglect made to state authorities. This figure has risen significantly over the last five years from 91,734 reports in 1995-1996. These figures do not necessarily mean that the actual occurrence of child abuse and neglect has increased over this time, but they do show that the reporting of cases to child protection services has increased.

UK

7% of children experienced serious physical abuse at the hands of their parents or carers during childhood.
1% of children experienced sexual abuse by a parent or carer and another 3% by another relative during childhood.
11% of children experienced sexual abuse by people known but unrelated to them. 5% of children experienced sexual abuse by an adult stranger or someone they had just met'.
6% of children experienced serious absence of care at home during childhood.
6% of children experienced frequent and severe emotional maltreatment during childhood.

Japan

New figures in Japan show the number of child abuse cases has risen significantly.
The health ministry says the number has risen above 30-thousand for the first time, that's six thousand more than for the same time last year.
The ministry says most cases of abuse in Japan involve violence or neglect, with two-thirds committed by the mother.
It says stricter laws on reporting abuse has contributed to the rise.

Yeah, maori's cause trouble no matter what country they're in.

[Grahameeboy]

Yeah, maori's cause trouble no matter what country their in.

I knew the silence would not last long................

[Finn]

I knew the silence would not last long................

I never miss a chance to have a go at the maori's. If kid bashing was an olympic sport at least NZ would be good at something.

I haven't been here in about 2 months and I see you still haven't managed to save the world. Loser.

[peasea]

I know but sometimes it comes across that way.

Tough guy...well look at Japan..........through the centuries, kids have been abused so maybe it is just a sad face of the human race.

Difficult to just look at Maori though when they are also at the lower end of the social ecomonic status.....I know that is a generalisation but maybe this is as much the issue than race, colour, culture...I mean whites beat on kids in the UK and poverty is a key element.

Hey mate! I've been broke heaps and I never abused my kids, don't lay the poverty shit on me! That's a size ten crock of crap. Poverty never told anyone to beat their kids. I don't believe a word anyone says about money having anything to do with love and affection. My parents did it hard during the war and their parents before them who went through WWI; they disciplined their kids but never abused them. They use poverty as an excuse and I would be willing to bet that a large slice of that poverty is due to sheer farkin laziness.

Sorry mate, I don't suck on that lemon.

[Grahameeboy]

Hey mate! I've been broke heaps and I never abused my kids, don't lay the poverty shit on me! That's a size ten crock of crap. Poverty never told anyone to beat their kids. I don't believe a word anyone says about money having anything to do with love and affection. My parents did it hard during the war and their parents before them who went through WWI; they disciplined their kids but never abused them. They use poverty as an excuse and I would be willing to bet that a large slice of that poverty is due to sheer farkin laziness.

Sorry mate, I don't suck on that lemon.

Fair call, was just throwing a general thought around for debate.

[Grahameeboy]

I never miss a chance to have a go at the maori's. If kid bashing was an olympic sport at least NZ would be good at something.

I haven't been here in about 2 months and I see you still haven't managed to save the world. Loser.

Well the main thing is that I am trying rather than chosing to be a loser and doing nothing................I would rather lose trying to do something.......

[peasea]

And let me tell you something else; when I split with the ex and had time on my hands I was either looking for work or pouring every spare minute into my girls. Time costs nothing and we walked, went to parks and kicked about on the beach. Time investment etc, not waste. We ate lame food, like mac' cheese and shit but I tried and I rose above it. Don't try and convince ME that a lack of money makes people beat their kids. Jeez. I'm annoyed now, coz that's bullshit.

I ain't too much of a man to not admit that I cried some nights because I couldn't put what I wanted to on the table but there was no lack of love. Love isn't about money, lack of money causes stress but you HAVE to rise above it and that strength comes from love and it's cyclical. To get it you have to give and back again. The reverse (with hate) also applies and some families have it back to front but money????

Nah..........it's got SFA to do with it.

[Grahameeboy]

And let me tell you something else; when I split with the ex and had time on my hands I was either looking for work or pouring every spare minute into my girls. Time costs nothing and we walked, went to parks and kicked about on the beach. Time investment etc, not waste. We ate lame food, like mac' cheese and shit but I tried and I rose above it. Don't try and convince ME that a lack of money makes people beat their kids. Jeez. I'm annoyed now, coz that's bullshit.

I ain't too much of a man to not admit that I cried some nights because I couldn't put what I wanted to on the table but there was no lack of love. Love isn't about money, lack of money causes stress but you HAVE to rise above it and that strength comes from love and it's cyclical. To get it you have to give and back again. The reverse (with hate) also applies and some families have it back to front but money????

Nah..........it's got SFA to do with it.

I was not trying to convince you.....was just looking at a different angle for the purpose of debate..........I respect your posts, however, my post was not aimed at you so please don't take it personally.

Guess some Maori's get annoyed when they get labelled.

[Finn]

Well the main thing is that I am trying rather than chosing to be a loser and doing nothing................I would rather lose trying to do something.......

Solo gay father from Devonport saves the world on a motorbike. I just don't see it happening.

[Grahameeboy]

Solo gay father from Devonport saves the world on a motorbike. I just don't see it happening.

Well you have to open your eyes Finn............oh and by the way welcome back.

[peasea]

I was not trying to convince you.....was just looking at a different angle for the purpose of debate..........I respect your posts, however, my post was not aimed at you so please don't take it personally.

Guess some Maori's get annoyed when they get labelled.

Ok, deep breath. Nothing personal, I know........
Looking at the scene overall though, you have to admit that laziness is a major factor. There's no incentive to get out of bed when the money will just roll in. Boredom sets in, a sense of hopelessness etc, then bingo, someone explodes and the easiest target gets trampled.

I was unemployed in Wellington in the early 80's but didn't pull the dole. I threw spanners in the garage for cash and kept my pride, so where/what is the difference? Why do these dole bludgers do it and how come they get away with it? It's not often you hear about hard-working, loving couples beating their kids is it? It's predominately beneficiaries, usually long-termers and sometimes generational.

It makes me want to cut all benefits overnight but then the genuine cases would suffer. The nanny state has to go before anything positive can even get started.

[peasea]

Solo gay father from Devonport saves the world on a motorbike. I just don't see it happening.

No but what about the world saving a solo motorbike from a gay father in Devonport? I could see that happening.

[Finn]

Well you have to open your eyes Finn............oh and by the way welcome back.

Just tried... nothing.

I'm not back. Just thought I'd remind you that the maori's are still not behaving themselves.

[Grahameeboy]

Just tried... nothing.

Well at least you tried so there is hope for you yet.

I'm not back. Just thought I'd remind you that the maori's are still not behaving themselves.

Yep, it is amazing how much trouble even a 1/16th can cause.............have you checked your family tree?
.............................

[Grahameeboy]

No but what about the world saving a solo motorbike from a gay father in Devonport? I could see that happening.

It's a twin?..............................

[Grahameeboy]

Ok, deep breath. Nothing personal, I know........
Looking at the scene overall though, you have to admit that laziness is a major factor. There's no incentive to get out of bed when the money will just roll in. Boredom sets in, a sense of hopelessness etc, then bingo, someone explodes and the easiest target gets trampled.

I was unemployed in Wellington in the early 80's but didn't pull the dole. I threw spanners in the garage for cash and kept my pride, so where/what is the difference? Why do these dole bludgers do it and how come they get away with it? It's not often you hear about hard-working, loving couples beating their kids is it? It's predominately beneficiaries, usually long-termers and sometimes generational.

It makes me want to cut all benefits overnight but then the genuine cases would suffer. The nanny state has to go before anything positive can even get started.

Agreed.....trouble is that human nature often takes the easiest route for some and with child abuse it is often a family historical thing..........I think we under estimate the power of the mind.

[kro]

It's not just NZ guys

Your stats are meaningless. Its high time we stop comparing ourselves to global statistics, to see what the accepted norm is, and tell ourselves that any abuse is wrong, and none should happen.

It fucks me off big time when people lean back on stats, and say "we're not doing any worse than country XYZ". Screw country XYZ, this is NZ, and we need to stop beating the shit out of our children.

The DPB needs to be scrapped, and re-introduced with tough as hell criteria, because these women are getting pregnant, as part of an "easy life" plan for them and their drop kick boyfriends. The amount of money earned from the DPB, coupled with a dole pay out for drop kick boyfriend, is actually quite large. The governments guilt in all this is they are paying for these situations to occur, and fostering the households of lazy assholes, who commit these sorts of crimes.

Memo to Sue Bradford.
Thank God for your anti smacking bill, it really saved these two babies....oh wait....

[Albino]

The news this morning said that as part of a new initiative all women seen at hospital will be questioned about family violence at home, even if they are in for an ingrown toe nail.

I'm glad to see child abuse is purely a male problem, it might make it easier to deal with. (sarcasm)

It's ok to say it's only males and they will be targetted, but it is not ok to say it's predominantly maori and they will be targetted? As some one else said step one to fixing this is to drop the PC rubbish.

[peasea]

The news this morning said that as part of a new initiative all women seen at hospital will be questioned about family violence at home, even if they are in for an ingrown toe nail.

I'm glad to see child abuse is purely a male problem, it might make it easier to deal with. (sarcasm)

It's ok to say it's only males and they will be targetted, but it is not ok to say it's predominantly maori and they will be targetted? As some one else said step one to fixing this is to drop the PC rubbish.

Drop 'political correctness'? Good luck with that but you're quite right. I heard that and thought 'why is it just the women?' Why not question every male as well? I could name some that have suffered abuse at the hands of females....

[pritch]

Don't try and convince ME that a lack of money makes people beat their kids. Jeez. I'm annoyed now, coz that's bullshit.



The example given during the weekend that the Polynesian people tend to occupy a similar part of the socio/economic spectrum but they don't abuse their kids the same way.

[Grahameeboy]

Your stats are meaningless. Its high time we stop comparing ourselves to global statistics, to see what the accepted norm is, and tell ourselves that any abuse is wrong, and none should happen.

It fucks me off big time when people lean back on stats, and say "we're not doing any worse than country XYZ". Screw country XYZ, this is NZ, and we need to stop beating the shit out of our children.

The DPB needs to be scrapped, and re-introduced with tough as hell criteria, because these women are getting pregnant, as part of an "easy life" plan for them and their drop kick boyfriends. The amount of money earned from the DPB, coupled with a dole pay out for drop kick boyfriend, is actually quite large. The governments guilt in all this is they are paying for these situations to occur, and fostering the households of lazy assholes, who commit these sorts of crimes.

Memo to Sue Bradford.
Thank God for your anti smacking bill, it really saved these two babies....oh wait....

I was not saying that, just showing it was a world wide problem because the impression was that it was deemed a NZ only problem and aimed at Maori etc.

I still think the anti-smacking law should be given a chance..it ain't gonna stop all abuse but may hopefully nip some things early and save some kids.............we do not and never will live in a Utopia society........at least the Bill is 'trying'.....

[BIGBOSSMAN]

Shoot the bastards!!! putting a child in the dryer??!! WTF!!! :mad::angry2:
It makes me sick to my stomach!!

Fucking lucky the poor little blighter didn't have creases, or they'd surely have used their DTR funded (48mths interest free) Philips Steam Iron...:gob:

[peasea]

The example given during the weekend that the Polynesian people tend to occupy a similar part of the socio/economic spectrum but they don't abuse their kids the same way.

There you go, thanks for that!

I worked with some Pacific Islanders in Wellington years ago and they were cruisy-as. Mostly church-goers who always seemed to be smiling and well dressed, along with their family members, but they were certainly no better off than anyone else in that place.

[MissFinn]

This is from a similar case a little while back. Similar MO... (Maori Offender).

Not for the faint hearted.

[scumdog]

I was not saying that, just showing it was a world wide problem because the impression was that it was deemed a NZ only problem and aimed at Maori etc.

I still think the anti-smacking law should be given a chance..it ain't gonna stop all abuse but may hopefully nip some things early and save some kids.............we do not and never will live in a Utopia society........at least the Bill is 'trying'.....

Anti smacking ain't ever going to be anti-killing so I don't see it working.

Anti-smacking is for Pollyannas, the hard core real child abusers and killer don't even know it exists.

[scumdog]

This is from a similar case a little while back. Similar MO... (Maori Offender).

Not for the faint hearted.

Man, is that a whole lot of love or what!!!

[Brian d marge]

who the living hell could do that to anything , let alone a child ,,,

gutted

As much as I didnt want/like to see those pics , thanks for posting them ,, its a reality check

and I am sorry for those in the future who may actually be good people but are subjected to my no influenced decisions

goes off to his three yr old .... ( actually i might torture him for 5 min ,,,by eating te last cola pop in front of him ahhhahahahahaa :innocent:]]]

Stephen

[Krusti]

Problem is that violence as a means of conflict resolution or punishment is learnt behavour which tends to carry on down through generations.

In a past life I went to a house where the hubby was beating the shit out of his wife with the claw of a hammer. Both teenage sons watching tv in lounge. Broke open door, asked kids what had happened. They refused to say.

A guy was also found at the same address at a later date after being beaten so badly that he was found in the feotal position behind the couch.

The point of the story is that while watching crime watch years later what do I see but one of the sons wanted for agg assault!

Not maori either.

[yungatart]

It is not a Maori problem (although they seem to be over represented in the statistics), it is a New Zealand problem. White NZers abuse their kids too. Almost every kid who is abused and survives is a cost to the taxpayer in some way (extra help at school, emotional problems, teenage pregnancy, drug or alcohol abuse... the list goes on).
What can be done about it? Who knows!
Most of the abusers come from dysfunctional families and have little or no parenting skills, little or no budgeting skills, little or no life skills.
Perhaps we could teach these things at primary school, before these kids drop out of the school system.
Perhaps we could fund compulsory courses on the local marae...parents using these courses could have a fee deducted from their benefit at source to pay for it all.
I don't know what the answer is but our kids deserve better than they are getting!

[Krusti]

I was bought up with 4 sisters and I remember my parents drilled into me not to hit girls! God they got away with murder. Tell ya what it stuck with me!

Drilled it in to my son as well.

Amazing how much what you are taught as a kid sticks with you....good and bad

[peasea]

Man, is that a whole lot of love or what!!!

Sue Bradford....where was your bill that day?

[ManDownUnder]

It is not a Maori problem (although they seem to be over represented in the statistics), it is a New Zealand problem.


YES YES YES F'n YES! Exactly. Everyones so damned keen to identify the demographic and hand it over (i.e. "It can't be bmy problem... now how do I prove it?").

It IS our problem. It IS a national disgrace, and I for one am ashamed this crap is so prevalent in my country.


What can be done about it? Who knows!
Most of the abusers come from dysfunctional families and have little or no parenting skills, little or no budgeting skills, little or no life skills.
Perhaps we could teach these things at primary school, before these kids drop out of the school system.
Perhaps we could fund compulsory courses on the local marae...parents using these courses could have a fee deducted from their benefit at source to pay for it all.
I don't know what the answer is but our kids deserve better than they are getting!

To be blunt I think we need to look back 50 years. Society as a whole took responsibility for the kids. Sure they were part of a family who have a primary care responsibility, but if the kid stepped out of line they got a called to account by the neighbour, a cop or a handy stranger on the street.

In my amateur interpretation - this had a twofold effect. Tommy was raised understanding disclipline, responsibility, boundaries etc. So when Tommy grew up and had kids of his own he didn't beat them senseless when they were hungry just at beer o'clock.

Likewise the neighbours would have been looking out of the people living next door. If something was wrong they were more involved in their lives... could spot something and could take reasonable action... helping the parents as needed, protecting kids as needed etc. All the while not fearing the law or some well intended, understaffed, Govt agency coming down on them like a ton of bricks.

/rant - sorry... this is a sore point for me. Bloody annoying.

Anyone see Pita Sharples talking about this on Campbell live the other night. I agree with what he said - It's a NZ problem...

[Albino]

It is so acceptable to draw a line between the genders when talking about abuse but doing this with race is a big no-go. How about some consistency, if race isn't a factor then neither is gender.

I agree it is an NZ issue, and the fix isn't to ask women if they've experienced abuse (or criticism as per the survey). The fix is to change the culture of NZ and that is not done via enforcement as many of us have argued in regards to the road toll.

BUT how do you change the culture of a country that has many cultures within? Do you need to have different plans for different ethnic and cultural groups or do you treat everyone the same? And if one of those cultural groups is massively over-represented in the statistics do you give them higher priority?

[_Shrek_]

I still think the anti-smacking law should be given a chance..it ain't gonna stop all abuse but may hopefully nip some things early and save some kids.............we do not and never will live in a Utopia society........at least the Bill is 'trying'.....

you either don't have kids or you're a bleeding heart liberal... the anti-smacking law has just made good parents criminals its not going to stop the sick #*!$ from beating, torchering and/or killing their kids

i work i the community and i hear 5 - 16 yo kids telling their parents you cant hit us or you will go to jail this is what they are being tought @ school

the govt is taking over and telling us how to bring up our kids... and if you see who's putting forward the polices.... they either don't have kids or they made a complete stuff brining up their own... they want to use the rest of NZrs as ginnie pigs because they couldn't get it right them selves

its about time they started to send these AH to prison instead of telling them its ok we can help you on home detention etc & ra ra ra

[ManDownUnder]

It is so acceptable to draw a line between the genders when talking about abuse but doing this with race is a big no-go. How about some consistency, if race isn't a factor then neither is gender.

Agreed, but we have to be careful that in addressing it we don't aim to remove benefits given to one group... rather we need to aim to make sure both sides get that same level of benefit.

It's annoying that women get asked and not men, but logic says the 80:20 rule kicks in and the most benefit is to do what they have. That being said... I agree with you Albino - it's not right.

[Grahameeboy]

you either don't have kids or you're a bleeding heart liberal... the anti-smacking law has just made good parents criminals its not going to stop the sick #*!$ from beating, torchering and/or killing their kids

i work i the community and i hear 5 - 16 yo kids telling their parents you cant hit us or you will go to jail this is what they are being tought @ school

the govt is taking over and telling us how to bring up our kids... and if you see who's putting forward the polices.... they either don't have kids or they made a complete stuff brining up their own... they want to use the rest of NZrs as ginnie pigs because they couldn't get it right them selves

its about time they started to send these AH to prison instead of telling them its ok we can help you on home detention etc & ra ra ra

Yes I have a Daughter and no I am not a bleeding heart liberal.

Just don't jump on band wagons and prefer to see how things pan out before taking the reigns.

And the kids are right......parents should not hit their kids because they are just kids, still learning what is right and wrong, will challenge and often it is the parents issue not the kids......the Act protects kids rights....it is easy to forget that and we can also learn a lot from kids.

Often parents who stuff up are ideal in telling us how we can do things better. We don't learn from doing things right, we learn from doing things wrong.

[scumdog]

......the Act protects kids rights....it is easy to forget that and we can also learn a lot from kids.

We are yet to see if the act has protected ONE kid.

It HAS resulted in a parent/caregiver whatever being convicted (possibly ruining an otherwise clean record) of 'assaulting' a kid they were trying to discipline.

[devnull]

I still think the anti-smacking law should be given a chance..it ain't gonna stop all abuse but may hopefully nip some things early and save some kids.............we do not and never will live in a Utopia society........at least the Bill is 'trying'.....

Get real. Do you know that there was NO scientific basis whatsoever for the anti-smacking crap they spouted? All of Bradford's info was based on a paper written by Joan Durrant. The statistics were manipulated to reach a preconceived conclusion - the paper has been widely condemned. (The British Journal of Social Workers carried an article called "The Swedish Myth" that has the correct statistical info.)

There is, however, a lot of evidence to show that the anti-smacking brigade was incorrect in their assumptions (the most recent being the Otago Uni study).

I loved the way they glossed over the massive youth crime increases in Sweden as a result - did you know that now only 31% of older kids (10-12 year olds) in Sweden think parents have the right to ground them?

The Canadians (Durrant is Canadian) threw out the anti-smacking proposals.

This bill was all about controlling parents through their kids - look around and see how many parents are too scared to parent their kids for fear of retribution.

[Grahameeboy]

We are yet to see if the act has protected ONE kid.

It HAS resulted in a parent/caregiver whatever being convicted (possibly ruining an otherwise clean record) of 'assaulting' a kid they were trying to discipline.

It is early days....:dodge:

Don't know that case you highlight, however, most offenders have a clean record (also means not being caught) and I still do not agree with physical discipline on kids.

[Grahameeboy]

Get real. Do you know that there was NO scientific basis whatsoever for the anti-smacking crap they spouted? All of Bradford's info was based on a paper written by Joan Durrant. The statistics were manipulated to reach a preconceived conclusion - the paper has been widely condemned. (The British Journal of Social Workers carried an article called "The Swedish Myth" that has the correct statistical info.)

There is, however, a lot of evidence to show that the anti-smacking brigade was incorrect in their assumptions (the most recent being the Otago Uni study).

I loved the way they glossed over the massive youth crime increases in Sweden as a result - did you know that now only 31% of older kids (10-12 year olds) in Sweden think parents have the right to ground them?

The Canadians (Durrant is Canadian) threw out the anti-smacking proposals.

This bill was all about controlling parents through their kids - look around and see how many parents are too scared to parent their kids for fear of retribution.

I have my view and as a previous post said we should not compare ourselves to other Country's.

Parenting is not a science so would not like to think we rely on scientific data which can also be manipulated.

I am not saying you are wrong or right, just think we should give it a go and if doesn't work we re-visit.........the only issue with the Law is the potential for what some people may consider is an unfair prosecution but that is what the Courts are for and it is a well know fact that a lot of child murders are committed by family members.

Getting real is not expecting a Utopia Law.

[devnull]

The 2001 UNICEF study into child abuse mirrored the results of the 1987 Greenland one.

The primary risk factors were:

‘Aged 20 or less at the birth of their first child’, ‘Single parent/separated; partner not biological parent of child’, ‘Socially isolated—frequent moves—poor housing’, ‘Poverty—
unemployed/unskilled worker; inadequate education’, ‘Abuses alcohol and/or drugs’

Earlier this year, the UN produced an agreement at one of their meetings called the "DOHA Declaration for the Family". Signatories were committing to strengthening families and communities. NZ refused to sign.

Socialism and having stronger family and community ties are opposites - the state should be all anyone needs. Why on earth would anyone want to repeat a social experiment that has already failed in other countries?

As long as they insist on creating a nation dependent on the govt for support, it won't change. Personally, I'm already planning to vote with my feet. I don't want my kids growing up in a country that is finding it necessary to search kids at school for weapons and drugs

[ManDownUnder]

We are yet to see if the act has protected ONE kid.

Yeah - like that's ever going to happen. It may have protected 100's... proving it is mission impossible. How do you ever prove that intervention prevented something from happening?

I turned left today after averaging 2kph less than I normally travel for the last 5kms. Did I prevent an accident?

That said i personally have trouble with the Act. I see it turning good parents into self doubting adults, and I am willing to bet those that beat the snot out of their kids don't see the change in law as anything they're going to suddenly stop and think about once the red mist comes down and their temper pushes them rapidly to 'that point"... again...

As previously posted. People need to stand up in the defence of the kids. Wider family or non family... GET INVOLVED.

Dare I say it... ... give a damn...

[peasea]

The 2001 UNICEF study into child abuse mirrored the results of the 1987 Greenland one.

The primary risk factors were:

‘Aged 20 or less at the birth of their first child’, ‘Single parent/separated; partner not biological parent of child’, ‘Socially isolated—frequent moves—poor housing’, ‘Poverty—
unemployed/unskilled worker; inadequate education’, ‘Abuses alcohol and/or drugs’

Earlier this year, the UN produced an agreement at one of their meetings called the "DOHA Declaration for the Family". Signatories were committing to strengthening families and communities. NZ refused to sign.

Socialism and having stronger family and community ties are opposites - the state should be all anyone needs. Why on earth would anyone want to repeat a social experiment that has already failed in other countries?

As long as they insist on creating a nation dependent on the govt for support, it won't change. Personally, I'm already planning to vote with my feet. I don't want my kids growing up in a country that is finding it necessary to search kids at school for weapons and drugs

Where you off to? LA? Columbine perhaps? Waco?

Why not make a stand and try to help fix this place? If you bring your own kids up right and work hard there's not much you'll be short of in NZ. I can see some similarities between drunk driving and child abuse and as time is going by drinking and driving is slowly becoming less socially acceptable. When I was a teenager in the 70's it was almost a right of passage to be able to get home from a party pissed-as without getting plucked. Now it's frowned upon by most. People are becoming more responsible, in my circles anyway. If more people showcased the 'right' way to do things then maybe others will realize where they've gone wrong.

Turning our backs on drinking and driving won't fix the problem any more than leaving the country will fix child abuse or anything else.

[Winston001]

We are yet to see if the act has protected ONE kid.

It HAS resulted in a parent/caregiver whatever being convicted (possibly ruining an otherwise clean record) of 'assaulting' a kid they were trying to discipline.

If you are referring to the Christchurch case, the father pleaded guilty, and had previous unrelated convictions.

Honestly people, the whole "anti-smacking" line of argument is nonsence. What happened is that a defence in our law which allowed parents to use harsh discipline (horsecrop, fence picket, chains - all successfully defended) was removed. How could any decent person argue with that?? :gob:

Murder is illegal - but it still happens. Why don't we just remove it from the Crimes Act - people are going to do it anyway.

Normally I'd cross the street to avoid Sue Bradford but on this matter I'm in full agreement. The whole point of the law change was to get the message across to all of NZ that hitting our kids is not OK. Our child abuse is frightful - anything which tells people to hold back, not hurt children, has to be good.

[scumdog]

Sue Bradford reinvented the wheel.

There was legislation already there that could have been utilised.

[ManDownUnder]

Sue Bradford reinvented the wheel.

There was legislation already there that could have been utilised.

OK but I don't want to explore that here. Too important an issue to drag off topic.

My focus has to be on NZ becoming a supportive community. Fuck it. I lived in Auckland... in a house 15m from the neighbour who we only spoke to... 10 times the whole 8 years we were there!

Anyone who knows me will tell you - you can't shut me UP! But something about the culture said "no - keep to yourself". That's such bullshit. we're in this together. Somehow we've adopted a culture that divides and conquors.

The Govt will supply. They will look after us. We no longer need to look after ourselves... let alone our neighbours. The Govt is looking after them too... right?

Pack of bumwipes.

[peasea]

OK but I don't want to explore that here. Too important an issue to drag off topic.

My focus has to be on NZ becoming a supportive community. Fuck it. I lived in Auckland... in a house 15m from the neighbour who we only spoke to... 10 times the whole 8 years we were there!

Anyone who knows me will tell you - you can't shut me UP! But something about the culture said "no - keep to yourself". That's such bullshit. we're in this together. Somehow we've adopted a culture that divides and conquors.

The Govt will supply. They will look after us. We no longer need to look after ourselves... let alone our neighbours. The Govt is looking after them too... right?

Pack of bumwipes.

Who are the bumwipes exactly?

When it comes to neighbours.......
I have neigbours I don't speak to, not becuase I don't like them just because I never have. The old codger next door I've spoken to about three times in five years, so what? He's probably not into bikes and I certainly don't give a flying fig about his garden. We mind our own business and respect each other's privacy.

[ManDownUnder]

Who are the bumwipes exactly?

When it comes to neighbours.......
I have neigbours I don't speak to, not becuase I don't like them just because I never have. The old codger next door I've spoken to about three times in five years, so what? He's probably not into bikes and I certainly don't give a flying fig about his garden. We mind our own business and respect each other's privacy.

be nice to help if he wasn't seen outside the house for a week without good reason wouldn't it? Or if someone was in your house - should he care?

I think he should... personally.

[peasea]

be nice to help if he wasn't seen outside the house for a week without good reason wouldn't it? Or if someone was in your house - should he care?

I think he should... personally.

He gets regular visitors for (I assume) the purpose of keeping an eye on him. I can go weeks without clapping eyes on him, maybe that's un-neighbourly but I don't see it like that. If he needs something, sure I'd help out, who wouldn't? On the other hand I would go nuts with a Coronation Street-like scenario where people drop in all the bloody time passing on and picking up gossip. All we do when we go away is (sometimes) tell the bloke over the road and I get a mate up the road to swing by, have a nosey and grab the mail.

There is a connection with all this though, to child abuse. I doubt you could live next door to an abused child and not notice anything. There must be screams, yelling, fighting etc. I'd make a call if I heard shit like that, sure, but we've got three reserves within spitting distance. If I checked out every scream (they all appear to be fun-based so far) I'd get nothing done.

There's a fine line between being helpful and being a nosey Parker but your point is taken. One day it might save a life, right?

[ManDownUnder]

There's a fine line between being helpful and being a nosey Parker but your point is taken. One day it might save a life, right?


From what you describe... and that closing comment - we're on the same page.

[Grahameeboy]

If you are referring to the Christchurch case, the father pleaded guilty, and had previous unrelated convictions.

Honestly people, the whole "anti-smacking" line of argument is nonsence. What happened is that a defence in our law which allowed parents to use harsh discipline (horsecrop, fence picket, chains - all successfully defended) was removed. How could any decent person argue with that?? :gob:

Murder is illegal - but it still happens. Why don't we just remove it from the Crimes Act - people are going to do it anyway.

Normally I'd cross the street to avoid Sue Bradford but on this matter I'm in full agreement. The whole point of the law change was to get the message across to all of NZ that hitting our kids is not OK. Our child abuse is frightful - anything which tells people to hold back, not hurt children, has to be good.

Yep, it as simple as you say it and although each to their view I just feel that there are too many knee jerkers on this site that are making something out of not a lot........just like most things.......sorry but don't some people see the wider aspects of the Bill.........what real harm is it going to do?

We have Speeding Laws. We may think they are stupid, and we certainly ignore but whatever the rights and wrongs, it is about making people aware and funnily enough a lot of people moan when they get a ticket for doing 111kph in a 100kph zone.............

We have 555 which allows citizens to report bad driving. I suspect we all agree with this, however, when it comes to kids, we complain that parents will be reported under the Anti Smacking Law.........seems that reporting bad driving is more acceptable.

We complain that we are told to do things by people who don't have kids and don't know about parenting but folks there are bad parents out there...maybe we think we are good parents but are not as good as we think?

At the end of the day a Law which raises awareness has to be a good think and this thread and many others on KB is evidence of this so the Law is working.

[devnull]

Where you off to? LA? Columbine perhaps? Waco?

Why not make a stand and try to help fix this place? If you bring your own kids up right and work hard there's not much you'll be short of in NZ. I can see some similarities between drunk driving and child abuse and as time is going by drinking and driving is slowly becoming less socially acceptable. When I was a teenager in the 70's it was almost a right of passage to be able to get home from a party pissed-as without getting plucked. Now it's frowned upon by most. People are becoming more responsible, in my circles anyway. If more people showcased the 'right' way to do things then maybe others will realize where they've gone wrong.

Turning our backs on drinking and driving won't fix the problem any more than leaving the country will fix child abuse or anything else.

Brisbane :yes:

Around the end of next year. Waiting for the 2nd child to arrive first.
Lots of stuff for the kids to do, good schools - pay rates are worse than Melbourne or Sydney, but lifestyle is better...

The problem with staying is that the social decline has taken more than a decade, and I think it'll take at least that much again to turn it around. My first priority is the kids, so staying isn't high on the list of options.

There's been literally mountains of research on this issue over the years. The problem is that a lot of the solutions aren't in line with certain political views, so they don't get considered. Until people pull their heads out of the sand and demand that the govt enforce THEIR views rather than it's own agenda, it'll be pretty hard to make the changes.

If you're like me, and were a kid in the 60's and 70's, no doubt you'll remember what it used to be like - close communities, not an overabundance of rules and regulations, kids showing respect, being responsible for your own actions, etc.

Now we have "rights" not "responsibilities", can breed for cash, teachers tell kids that parents can't punish them, the media regularly carries stories of abused children - even ones that are in state care aren't safe....

[Grahameeboy]

If you are referring to the Christchurch case, the father pleaded guilty, and had previous unrelated convictions.

Honestly people, the whole "anti-smacking" line of argument is nonsence. What happened is that a defence in our law which allowed parents to use harsh discipline (horsecrop, fence picket, chains - all successfully defended) was removed. How could any decent person argue with that?? :gob:

Murder is illegal - but it still happens. Why don't we just remove it from the Crimes Act - people are going to do it anyway.

Normally I'd cross the street to avoid Sue Bradford but on this matter I'm in full agreement. The whole point of the law change was to get the message across to all of NZ that hitting our kids is not OK. Our child abuse is frightful - anything which tells people to hold back, not hurt children, has to be good.

Yep, it as simple as you say it and although each to their view I just feel that there are too many knee jerkers on this site that are making something out of not a lot........just like most things.......sorry but don't some people see the wider aspects of the Bill.........what real harm is it going to do?

We have Speeding Laws. We may think they are stupid, and we certainly ignore but whatever the rights and wrongs, it is about making people aware and funnily enough a lot of people moan when they get a ticket for doing 111kph in a 100kph zone.............

We have 555 which allows citizens to report bad driving. I suspect we all agree with this, however, when it comes to kids, we complain that parents will be reported under the Anti Smacking Law.........seems that reporting bad driving is more acceptable.

We complain that we are told to do things by people who don't have kids and don't know about parenting but folks there are bad parents out there...maybe we think we are good parents but are not as good as we think?

At the end of the day a Law which raises awareness has to be a good thing and this thread and many others on KB is evidence of this so the Law is working.

[peasea]

Brisbane :yes:

Around the end of next year. Waiting for the 2nd child to arrive first.
Lots of stuff for the kids to do, good schools - pay rates are worse than Melbourne or Sydney, but lifestyle is better...

The problem with staying is that the social decline has taken more than a decade, and I think it'll take at least that much again to turn it around. My first priority is the kids, so staying isn't high on the list of options.

There's been literally mountains of research on this issue over the years. The problem is that a lot of the solutions aren't in line with certain political views, so they don't get considered. Until people pull their heads out of the sand and demand that the govt enforce THEIR views rather than it's own agenda, it'll be pretty hard to make the changes.

If you're like me, and were a kid in the 60's and 70's, no doubt you'll remember what it used to be like - close communities, not an overabundance of rules and regulations, kids showing respect, being responsible for your own actions, etc.

Now we have "rights" not "responsibilities", can breed for cash, teachers tell kids that parents can't punish them, the media regularly carries stories of abused children - even ones that are in state care aren't safe....

I was a kid in the 60's and did the teen thing in the 70's. I left school at 15 at the close of 72. I still think NZ is a great place and some common sense needs to be applied to the 'new age' rules. I smacked my kids on the bum when they were young and now they're my best mates, you're welcome to meet us and see how we interact. I am in close contact with a primary school principal who was willing to go into bat for me when the excrement hit the air handler a while back in the Family Court. He can see what's what and I was flabbergasted when he offered me that support; a pillar of the community like that at your side is pretty good ammunition. I have told my children that basic discipline is not only a good thing, it is a requirement of life itself. Check out dogs and their pups, they nip and push etc., apes, cats you name it. It's part of life training. Abuse is something entirely different.

You make some valid points and I won't try and sway you from your decision to move to Oz, I wish you all the best. I've been to Brizzy a few times and can't wait to get back to Willowbank Raceway, I can see how the lifestyle would be attractive but I am seriously in love with this land and it's going to take more than a few silly rules to make me pack my bags.

Good luck over there mate, I hope it works out for you.

[peasea]

[QUOTE=devnull;1154340]Brisbane :yes:

Around the end of next year. Waiting for the 2nd child to arrive first.
QUOTE]

Just to take the piss; how does the second child arrive first?

[Guitana]

[QUOTE=devnull;1154340]Brisbane :yes:

Around the end of next year. Waiting for the 2nd child to arrive first.
QUOTE]

Just to take the piss; how does the second child arrive first?

The second child may be a twin and arrive "first"!

[devnull]

Just to take the piss; how does the second child arrive first?

:yes: IVF, hence the wait. We had a fantastic midwife for the first one, who arrived 6 weeks early, so she'll be delivering the second one.
Was a very quick ambulance trip to the hospital - I can definitely say that even though I'd delivered babies before, when it's your own it's a whole new ballgame

Great to hear how supportive the school was - if only common sense was more prevalent. Sounds like the principal is a top bloke.

I reckon that if they overhauled the child care services and benefit system, the govt would go a long way towards combating this issue. That Canadian bloke, Dr Larzalere, had some great info on what did and didn't work in families. We missed the boat with our laws - instead of tightening them, we got a can of worms. The problem was never the law, it was the enforcement (something that I don't think is the fault of Police, BTW)

I've never been to Brisbane though we have friends there - have worked in Melbourne and Sydney, and visited Adelaide (the land that time forgot - sort of an Aussie version of Greymouth) :laugh:

A mate in Melbourne has been telling me that the roads are better for riding too - big plus

[kro]

Nia Glassie died.

[Scorpygirl]

Nia Glassie died.

RIP Nia. May your life now be full of the joy that you never had in this life. Very sad news to hear. :weep:

[Pussy]

RIP Nia....you never had a chance to live in peace

[Skyryder]

This problem is not going to go away until there are some serious curbs put on those that are eligible for the domestic purposes benifit. It was after all bought in for married woman who for whatever reason did not have the financial ability to get out of an abusive marriage. Now it has become a lifestyle choice for many woman who have no interest in making any contribution to society by means of getting a job. It's open the legs, get into the pudding club, and off to the 'Agency for a free ride for the next fifteen or so years.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying that solo mums can not be good mothers but nature made two to have one and it take two to bring up one. :dodge:

Skyryder