"Gorgeous" George Galloway

[MisterD]

Oh, FFS, it was to get away from twats like this Sadam-loving twat (http://www.georgegalloway.com/)that I emigrated, and now he's over here pushing his leftier-than-thou agenda.

George, please, just fuck off back to Glasgow.

[scracha]

Oh, FFS, it was to get away from twats like this Sadam-loving twat (http://www.georgegalloway.com/)that I emigrated, and now he's over here pushing his leftier-than-thou agenda.

George, please, just fuck off back to Glasgow.

So just because he didn't agree with an illegal war to steal Iraq's oil that makes him a Saddam loving twat?

It was to get away from twats like this that I emigrated, and now they're over here pushing their fascist agenda.

[sels1]

So how many of you political refugee poms have we got over here? (pt)

[scracha]

So how many of you political refugee poms have we got over here? (pt)

Who you callin a fuckin pom?

[sels1]

It was to get away from twats like this that I emigrated, .

oh really? where from?

[McJim]

oh really? where from?

Not everyone in the UK is English. Just like not everyone in New Zealand is Australian.

UK is now under Scottish Management anyway :rofl:

[SARGE]

So just because he didn't agree with an illegal war to steal Iraq's oil that makes him a Saddam loving twat?



the war in Iraq cost the US Taxpayers how many millions of dollars a day?

how much capitol is being generated from the oil pumped out of the ground every day??

check the batteries in you abucus man ... i cant work the math out on this one ..


( by the way .. im pretty sure close to 4000 mothers and families of the dead US Servicemen and women think their soldiers paid a heavy price for that oil)


deluded people who think this is about oil really get my ass up.. big pic folks .. big pic


/rant

[Waylander]

the war in Iraq cost the US Taxpayers how many millions of dollars a day?

how much capitol is being generated from the oil pumped out of the ground every day??

check the batteries in you abucus man ... i cant work the math out on this one ..


( by the way .. im pretty sure close to 4000 mothers and families of the dead US Servicemen and women think their soldiers paid a heavy price for that oil)


deluded people who think this is about oil really get my ass up.. big pic folks .. big pic


/rant
Why the fuck did they go to Iraq anyway? I mean we were in Afganistan looking for Bin Laden and his chronies then suddenly we were in Irq going after Hussein again. What the fuck?

[SARGE]

Why the fuck did they go to Iraq anyway? I mean we were in Afganistan looking for Bin Laden and his chronies then suddenly we were in Irq going after Hussein again. What the fuck?

thats part of the big picture man ..the current WoT actually started at the fall of the ottoman empire and the disintegration of the Caliphate .. ( google is your friend .. i cant be fucked )

[Waylander]

thats part of the big picture man ..the current WoT actually started at the fall of the ottoman empire and the disintegration of the Caliphate .. ( google is your friend .. i cant be fucked )
Google ain't working for me right now.

[Biff]

George, please, just fuck off back to Glasgow.

Well said.

Eedjit (I think that's how you spell idiot in Glaswegian). Just like David Icke. Disillusioned eedjitds.

[SARGE]

Well said.

Eedjit (I think that's how you spell idiot in Glaswegian). Just like David Icke. Disillusioned eedjitds.

lotta that going around.. especially in politics

[Sanx]

Oh, FFS, it was to get away from twats like this Sadam-loving twat (http://www.georgegalloway.com/)that I emigrated, and now he's over here pushing his leftier-than-thou agenda.

George, please, just fuck off back to Glasgow.

Actually, Mr Galloway, fuck off back to Iraq. And stay there. The gall some people have had to call him a 'world peace leader'. Are they taking the piss?

[Big Dave]

( google is your friend.)

Shame it didn't tell george 'just like Vietnam - you can't win in their sandpit'.

[SARGE]

Shame it didn't tell george 'just like Vietnam - you can't win in their sandpit'.

only because the other team has a different rulebook...


just like Vietnam


level the feild and let us play by the same rules and get rid of the media and this shit will be over in a week..


Pakistan has a huge tribal area that is lousy with insurgents and everyone knows it .. Musharif says you cant come in and get them because we are dealing with it ..

just like Cambodia

screw the rulebook..

[kro]

At the root of "The rise of Islam" is the fundamental "spirit" that drives the PC machine.

To explain in slightly less cryptic terms. What happens when we slander Hindus, Islamics, Maori, or any race of people with their own beliefs/religion?. The PC machine roars into life, and quashes our threatening "racist" remarks, and labels us as "haters".

Now, as a white male caucasian, I have no "culture" to speak of. I am not of the belief that an ancestral man fished NZ out of the sea, I do not teach my children that a 6 armed elephant is to be worshipped, or such like.

My only heritage, or culture I can claim to be part of, is that of the Christian faith, which was the foundation religion of my family tree. It is the belief system my family raised their children around, and is the one they took to their place of worship each week. The thing is see, we can open up a can of whoop ass on the Jesus lovers, and the whole country joins in, and laughs/mocks too. We will protect these other races dignity and respect above our own culture and heritage. Effectively NZ hates itself.

This Gorgeous George may live to see the error of his thinking. For now he can piss off back to his hole.

[scracha]

the war in Iraq cost the US Taxpayers how many millions of dollars a day?


( by the way .. im pretty sure close to 4000 mothers and families of the dead US Servicemen and women think their soldiers paid a heavy price for that oil)


deluded people who think this is about oil really get my ass up.. big pic folks .. big pic


/rant

I'm sure the >100,000 mothers and families of the dead Iraqi civilians think they're paying a high price for being cursed with having an asset the USA depends on.

Just because the US war criminal president can't do maths and couldn't work out that it wouldn't be a 5 day air campaign doesn't mean it wasn't about oil. Deluded people who can't see that this war is really just about oil (and the "commander in chief" keeping his buddies happy) really get my goat too.

[scumdog]

I'm sure the >100,000 mothers and families of the deal Iraqi civilians think they're paying a high price for being cursed with having an asset the USA depends on..

Is that counting the 'collateral damage' caused by suicide bombers too??
The ones that blow themselves up to kill 5 Iraqi police recruits - but also kill 23 innocent civilians too? - all who may well be of the same religious persuasion as the bomber.

[Street Gerbil]

the war in Iraq cost the US Taxpayers how many millions of dollars a day?

how much capitol is being generated from the oil pumped out of the ground every day??

check the batteries in you abucus man ... i cant work the math out on this one ..


( by the way .. im pretty sure close to 4000 mothers and families of the dead US Servicemen and women think their soldiers paid a heavy price for that oil)


deluded people who think this is about oil really get my ass up.. big pic folks .. big pic


/rant
We have to choose: shall we give up or shall we surrender?
Wait a tick, why am I speaking French on an English-speaking website???

[scracha]

Is that counting the 'collateral damage' caused by suicide bombers too??
The ones that blow themselves up to kill 5 Iraqi police recruits - but also kill 23 innocent civilians too? - all who may well be of the same religious persuasion as the bomber.

No more acceptable than 'collateral damage' caused by US airstrikes etc. My point is that there wasn't all the violence before the 'coalition of the greedy' invaded...sorry...liberated Iraq. Perhaps if Rumsfield (you know, the guy who armed Saddam in the first place) hadn't sacked the Iraqi army and hadn't installed a puppet government in Iraq (and before that Afghanistan) then there would be a little less violence?

[MisterD]

So just because he didn't agree with an illegal war to steal Iraq's oil that makes him a Saddam loving twat?

It was to get away from twats like this that I emigrated, and now they're over here pushing their fascist agenda.

No, bullshit political grandstanding by travelling to Iraq, meeting with and giving credibility to, someone who was responsible for the torture and murder of thousands of his own people makes him a Saddam loving twat.

[Waylander]

No more acceptable than 'collateral damage' caused by US airstrikes etc. My point is that there wasn't all the violence before the 'coalition of the greedy' invaded...sorry...liberated Iraq. Perhaps if Rumsfield (you know, the guy who armed Saddam in the first place) hadn't sacked the Iraqi army and hadn't installed a puppet government in Iraq (and before that Afghanistan) then there would be a little less violence?
Uh right, last I checked the average collateral damage from a US air strike would maybe be bout 10-15. Not 25-30 like the suicide bombers who don't care who they take out.

No less acceptable yes but certainly the lesser of two evils, with the added benefit that once the US has control of an area, the air strikes stop. Have yet to see the suicide bombers stop.

[scracha]

Uh right, last I checked the average collateral damage from a US air strike would maybe be bout 10-15. Not 25-30 like the suicide bombers who don't care who they take out.

No less acceptable yes but certainly the lesser of two evils, with the added benefit that once the US has control of an area, the air strikes stop. Have yet to see the suicide bombers stop.

Bwahahah. There's lies, damed lies and statistics. You guys obviously watch too much Fox and CNN news.

[scracha]

No, bullshit political grandstanding by travelling to Iraq, meeting with and giving credibility to, someone who was responsible for the torture and murder of thousands of his own people makes him a Saddam loving twat.

As opposed to Donald Rumsfeld when he was travelling to Iraq to meet Saddam?
At least Galloway was there to try and talk him into allowing UN inspectors to search for (non existant) WMD's and thus prevent a war opposed to selling him weapons like when Rumsfeldmet Saddam.

I see now the Americans are giving the Saudi's $63 billion (USD) worth of weapons.


Never mind Iran, the biggest threat to stability in the Middle-East is the USA.

[pete376403]

Any of you middle east experts read this? Care to comment?

[Street Gerbil]

Any of you middle east experts read this? Care to comment?
Oh, that's a simple one. If it is signed "Fisk", it is a half-truth, distortion, or an outright lie. The guy goes through fireproof pants like there is no tomorrow.

[MisterD]

At least Galloway was there to try and talk him into allowing UN inspectors to search for (non existant) WMD's and thus prevent a war opposed to selling him weapons like when Rumsfeldmet Saddam.


Well my personal belief on the WMD thing is that Saddam wanted the US and allies to believe he had them, thinking that would deter an attack where his "mother of all battles" threat had failed last time around. Another pretty drastic mis-calculation...

I also think that finishing the job his Dad started and should have finished after the first gulf war is a much bigger motivator for GWB than mere oil. I'm sure there's a lot of guilt about the way uprisings in Basra etc were put down by Saddam.

Anyway all Saudi has more than enough oil for the US, and reducing that dependence is surely only a "nice to have" rather than an essential item.

[Waylander]

Bwahahah. There's lies, damed lies and statistics. You guys obviously watch too much Fox and CNN news.
I don't watch the news, when I was younger I always though it was boring and now I know they sensationalize everything. Especially bad news.

What I know is from my Brother-in-law currently serving in Iraq.

[SARGE]

Any of you middle east experts read this? Care to comment?

i dont need to read it .. ive lived it


fisk is a hack

[scumdog]

if Rumsfield (you know, the guy who armed Saddam in the first place) hadn't sacked the Iraqi army and hadn't installed a puppet government in Iraq (and before that Afghanistan) then there would be a little less violence?


Mwahahahah!

Very ferkin funny.. "a little less violence" mwahahha!

[Waylander]

Mwahahahah!

Very ferkin funny.. "a little less violence" mwahahha!
RE: you sig, 6 more posts to go.

[SARGE]

we have a term for this back home...


armchair quarterback




"woulda, shoulda, coulda done this ...."

[Waylander]

we have a term for this back home...


armchair quarterback




"woulda, shoulda, coulda done this ...."
Thought the term was "monday morning quarterback"?

[SARGE]

Thought the term was "monday morning quarterback"?

thats AFTER the game... too many people are screamin at the TV during the plays like the coach can hear them



bottom line ..


its damn easy to sit in your comfy chair on your quarter acre paradise in front of the nice safe computer screen and make judgment calls about something that none of us are qualified to make..

George Bush, Don Rumsfeld, Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein.. say what you will.. NONE of them got to the positions they are ( were) in by being idiots.. George Sr was a crafty fucker.. i think Little George is mind fucking every one of us by playing the bimbo..i dont for a moment think he does not know EXACTLY what is going on every second of every day ...his advisers are pretty much the same hand-picked people George Sr had in HIS cabinet and i doubt they have been doing this job for 20+ years and are not DAMN good at it ..

geo-politics is a funny thing folks

[xwhatsit]

They've got signs up all around uni promoting his talks. Looks interesting -- he's apparently talking about how to avoid and counter the racism and anti-religious sentiments that have popped up since all of this started. Seems a reasonable thing to speak about; you hear a lot of people spouting off about `rag-heads' and equating Islam to Satan-worship.

I don't doubt he talks a lot of crap, too. Both sides of the argument are full to their eyeballs with propaganda and other horseshit.

It's sad, though, when (like what happened in Brisbane a few years back) a mosque gets fire-bombed and innocent Muslims get hassled and not served in shops and the like. If that's what he's here to talk about then more power to him. I suspect he won't stick strictly to that, however.

[SARGE]

It's sad, though, when (like what happened in Brisbane a few years back) a mosque gets fire-bombed and innocent Muslims get hassled and not served in shops and the like..


the Lebos in Oz paid for that themselves .. head to Sydney and take a look at the behavior that goes on there amongst the Lebo youth

[xwhatsit]

the Lebos in Oz paid for that themselves .. head to Sydney and take a look at the behavior that goes on there amongst the Lebo youth

<hints id="hah_hints"></hints>Dude I'm not going to even try convincing you, as because of your history you're always going to be biased. Not a slur, it's just inevitable that you will have such a viewpoint.

But I can't help saying this, though. Why should Mr Muhammed, a Malaysian Muslim father of two in Brisbane, have to see his house of worship get fire-bombed and his wife denied service in a shop and spat on because some Lebanese teenagers/early-20s good-for-nothings are raping and fighting and stabbing down in Sydney?

[SARGE]

<hints id="hah_hints"></hints>Dude I'm not going to even try convincing you, as because of your history you're always going to be biased. Not a slur, it's just inevitable that you will have such a viewpoint.

But I can't help saying this, though. Why should Mr Muhammed, a Malaysian Muslim father of two, have to see his house of worship get fire-bombed and his wife denied service in a shop and spat on because some Lebanese teenagers/early-20s good-for-nothings are raping and fighting and stabbing?

shouldnt ..but why does John Smith, father of 2,accountant and agnostic have to put up with the intimidation every time he walks his dog just because he is an infidel ( supposedly) i thought Islam had strong family values.. ( according to the marketing)..shouldnt thier kids be polite little darlings?

the East Africans ( Somalians) in Auckland havnt left the Somali way of life behind them one iota ..


why does the Muslim population stick within thier own community here in NZ and pretty much refuse to join the Kiwi culture? .. not even attempt to learn english.. not socialize with Westerners when they dont have to ..?

2 sides mate ..

[xwhatsit]

I think we're getting into our own wee backyard problems with multiculturalism here, and not even Gorgeous George can help us here, lol (why's he Gorgeous, anyway?)

Isolated ethnic communities is a whole thread in itself. People seem to be far better at integrating over here though compared to Sydney/Melbourne; although I haven't met any Somalians lately so you might have a point regarding them :)

It's funny, when I lived in Brisbane for some time, you'd go down to the Gold Coast. If you want to start talking about communities that don't integrate, look at the Kiwis on the Gold Coast. Robina especially. South Africans do the same. It's a bit different with the Kiwis and the South Africans as at least we're all speaking English and approximately similar culture to the Aussies, so it doesn't stand out so much.

Communities not integrating isn't just the Muslims, is the point I'm eventually getting around to. Indians, Chinese, Koreans, whatever...

Anyway. I want to hear why George is so Gorgeous, not discuss this kind of nonsense :lol:

[MisterD]

Anyway. I want to hear why George is so Gorgeous, not discuss this kind of nonsense :lol:

I think it's a tabloid thing, giving him sort of a boxer's nickname due to his confrontational style in parliament...

[Dave Lobster]

I see now the Americans are giving the Saudis $63 billion (USD) worth of weapons.

Never mind Iran, the biggest threat to stability in the Middle-East is the USA.

No. The biggest threat in the middle east, and worldwide, is the Saudis paying for mudslum only schools, and the poison that they're teaching children. I can't be ar5ed to look, but I'd put money on there being at least one here.





Why does the Muslim population stick within their own community here in NZ and pretty much refuse to join the Kiwi culture? .. not even attempt to learn English.. not socialize with Westerners when they don't have to ..?



It isn't just here. That's everywhere. At least the eggs are all in one basket, if you need to drop it.


I think it's a tabloid thing, giving him sort of a boxer's nickname due to his confrontational style in parliament...

Or out of. He's banned every five minutes.

[kro]

why does the Muslim population stick within thier own community here in NZ and pretty much refuse to join the Kiwi culture? .. not even attempt to learn english.. not socialize with Westerners when they dont have to ..?

Mate, what culture?. What is the New Zealand Culture?. The white faced populace in NZ is largely descendant from a pack of English people, who sat round and drank tea, and gossiped about the next higher or lower social class in their town.....occasionally punctuated by a game of watching paint dry (cricket), or a fox hunt.

Culture to me means the values, the actions, the religion, the idiosyncracies, the dances, the tribal life, the spirituality all rolled together, that IS that particular race of people. Our culture, if we actually have one, is diluted, and polluted in the extreme, as I struggle to find any defining, or commonalities in our heritage, other than a heavy vein of Christianity.

Everyone speaks of the pioneering hard ass early settlers, and how they forged this country. A huge portion of them were devout Christians, so each time we mock the Jesus set, we take a good round house swing at our own descendants beliefs, and devalue their memory each time.

[Dave Lobster]

A huge portion of them were devout Christians, so each time we mock the Jesus set, we take a good round house swing at our own descendants beliefs, and devalue their memory each time.

No it doesn't. It just means we've moved on from needing the control of a religion.

[MisterD]

Mate, what culture?. What is the New Zealand Culture?. The white faced populace in NZ is largely descendant from a pack of English people, who sat round and drank tea, and gossiped about the next higher or lower social class in their town.....occasionally punctuated by a game of watching paint dry (cricket), or a fox hunt.

That is so far off the mark, and such a sweeping generalisation that it would be labelled racism if you were talking about brown faces. There are strong and distinctive cultures that the various white immigrants brought with them that all weave together here....English, yes but also Scots, Irish, Germans, Croatians (Dallies), French.

I suggest you watch the TVNZ series "Here to stay", it's out on DVD now...

[kro]

It was a sweeping generalisation yes, but intended to point out the for the most part, the caucasian population, even if they have a rich culture, have traded it in for the mainstream, and thus we have disenfranchised races, unsure of who, or what they are all about.

Having strong Maori blood on my mums side of the family, I see my rellies as a proud, fiercely family conscious people, who know their roots, know their language, know their culture, and it challenges me.

My intention in all of this is to point out that Islam is not indigenous to NZ, and like anything "introduced", has to be handled carefully, lest it's spread pollute the culture of its host country. The Maori are keenly aware of this fact.

Label me racist, I am not concerned with it in the least.

[Dave Lobster]

lest it's spread pollute the culture of its host country.

I think you'll find that's the idea of islam..

[kro]

bingo.....

[Sanx]

My intention in all of this is to point out that Islam is not indigenous to NZ, and like anything "introduced", has to be handled carefully, lest it's spread pollute the culture of its host country.


I think you'll find that's the idea of islam..

You mean like Christianity, with the countless Missionaries spread far and wide, introducing their beliefs into an area (usually along with sexually-transmitted diseases, rubella, chicken pox, etc) and telling all the natives that the beliefs that have served them for the past xxx years are all wrong?

Like the Christian so-called charities in Africa now, who tie provision of medical aid, food and schooling to the natives being baptised and attending church? Who use aid money given to the poor and starving to build churches and employ more missionaries?

Like the missionary colonists of not that many years ago who executed native leaders if they wouldn't convert to Christianity, imposed Christian-based laws on the lands they'd just taken over and all the people who happened to be living there?

Yup - it's a phemonen peculiar to Islam, alright.

[kro]

Never having said Christianity was flawless, these comments are immaterial to my base "argument" regarding the spread of Islam, and thus I will not address the loosely bundled half facts contained within your post.

If you use the introduction of Christianity into a foreign nation a negative occurrence, how much more will the rise of yet another fiercely militant religion then scar the politics of the country even further?.

When you "defect from Christianity to Islam the parishoners say " oh bugger", when the reverse occurs, the person is on a hitlist, and targeted for death.

If Islam is given more and more freedoms, and given a greater amount of social influence, what will become of NZ?.

[Dave Lobster]

You mean like Christianity, with the countless Missionaries spread far and wide, introducing their beliefs into an area (usually along with sexually-transmitted diseases, rubella, chicken pox, etc) and telling all the natives that the beliefs that have served them for the past xxx years are all wrong?

Like the Christian so-called charities in Africa now, who tie provision of medical aid, food and schooling to the natives being baptised and attending church? Who use aid money given to the poor and starving to build churches and employ more missionaries?


They can go all go in the same chamber as far as I'm concerned.


If Islam is given more and more freedoms, and given a greater amount of social influence, what will become of NZ?.

The same as what's happened to the UK.

[scracha]

The same as what's happened to the UK.

Ain't that the truth.

Did someone mention strong mauri blood?

[Sanx]

UY-ZrwFwLQg

[pete376403]

i dont need to read it .. ive lived it


fisk is a hack
Interesting. Both you and street gerbil say its more or less outright lies. Could either of you point to any of these lies in the book? Because I am reading it, and so far everything I've read appears to be a provable fact, even if not particularly palatable to either US or Israeli readers.
However - I'd love to be proved wrong. Just one demonstrable lie.

BTW if you haven't read the book, I'd understand. It's over 1000 pages, and no pictures

[Sanx]

Interesting. Both you and street gerbil say its more or less outright lies. Could either of you point to any of these lies in the book? Because I am reading it, and so far everything I've read appears to be a provable fact, even if not particularly palatable to either US or Israeli readers.
However - I'd love to be proved wrong. Just one demonstrable lie.

BTW if you haven't read the book, I'd understand. It's over 1000 pages, and no pictures

I haven't read it, simply because I don't trust a word that Robert Fisk says. I've seen too many of his reports on Lebanon and Israel to take him seriously any more. He's certainly no friend of the US and Israel (which itself is not a problem); but his dislike of those two powers means he conveniently fails to mention counter-arguments. A job of a journalist is to report. To provide balanced impartial reportage. He doesn't. He reports only those things which support his personal political viewpoints and simply disregards anything else.

As for his book; he's too clever to lie outright in it. But what you must ask yourself is what he's not mentioning. For instance...

A regular feature of Israeli / Palestinian clashes were pictures and reports of Israeli soldiers shooting at Palestinian youths throwing stones. How many reports did you see where the Palestinian snipers, in buildings behind and above the stone-throwers were shown? Very few, I'd wager, but they were always there.

You may also remember those pictures of a twelve year-old boy and his father (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Durrah) sheltering behind a concrete water pipe in the middle of a shoot-out between Israeli forces and Palestinian militia. Happened in 2000 at a place called Netzarim Junction and was featured mainly as a Palestinian cameraman working for France 2 caught the whole episode on camera as the twelve year-old was shot dead and the father gravely injured. Palestinian apologists siezed on this incident as a stark example of the inhumanity of Israeli forces, how they deliberately targeted an innocent and unarmed child.

Robert Fisk jumped on this incident and used his syndication in a number of western papers to launch stinging attacks on the Israeli Defence Forces, Ariel Sharon and pretty much anyone else he could think of. His one source, the Palestinian cameraman who shot the footage, was claimed to have given an affidavit indicating the shots came from the Israeli position. Except he denies he ever gave that statement. The footage was unclear and did not show the moment of death. There is considerable doubt and continued uncertainly as to a) whether the child was ever shot, b) whether he was killed, c) where the bullets came from and d) the extent to which the whole incident was staged.

How much of this uncertainly do you see in Robert Fisks reports? Answer: sweet fuck all. He still mentions the kid's death in articles seven years later, without ever appearing to mention that there is any doubt about the incident. He treats it as a fait accompli. Any journalist worth his salt would not continually refer to such an incident without bringing up the varied investigations and law suits that have resulted from it.

Robert Fisk? There are few journalists who I despise. He is one of them.

[pete376403]

That "incident" gets thirteen lines (in a footnote) in 1334 pages. And to me it seems reasonably well balanced. Quote :The video and the photographs of the twelve year old falling lifeless in his fathers arms became one of the iconic images of the second intifada, and the israelis quickly erased all trace of the killing by demolishing the wall behind which they had taken cover. An isreali military investigation then attempted to prove that palestinians had been responsible their deaths - and successfully persuaded Americas CBS to air their bogus "findings" on the 60 minutes program "One gets the impression" Israeli knesset member Ophir Pines-Paz bravely pointed out "that instead of genuinely confronting this incident the IDF has chosen to stage a ficticious re-enactment and cover up the incident by means of an enquiry with foregone conclusions and the sole purpose of of which is to clear the IDF of responsibility for al-Duras death". Western reporters who investigated the killings concluded the the israelis had shot both the son and the father, who survived, although the israelis soldiers resposible may not have been able to see them behind the wall" unquote.
I'll grant you that a member of the Israeli Knesset probably isn't as authorative as an unamed Wikipedia contributor

[Sanx]

That "incident" gets thirteen lines (in a footnote) in 1334 pages. And to me it seems reasonably well balanced. Quote :The video and the photographs of the twelve year old falling lifeless in his fathers arms became one of the iconic images of the second intifada, and the israelis quickly erased all trace of the killing by demolishing the wall behind which they had taken cover. An isreali military investigation then attempted to prove that palestinians had been responsible their deaths - and successfully persuaded Americas CBS to air their bogus "findings" on the 60 minutes program "One gets the impression" Israeli knesset member Ophir Pines-Paz bravely pointed out "that instead of genuinely confronting this incident the IDF has chosen to stage a ficticious re-enactment and cover up the incident by means of an enquiry with foregone conclusions and the sole purpose of of which is to clear the IDF of responsibility for al-Duras death". Western reporters who investigated the killings concluded the the israelis had shot both the son and the father, who survived, although the israelis soldiers resposible may not have been able to see them behind the wall" unquote.
I'll grant you that a member of the Israeli Knesset probably isn't as authorative as an unamed Wikipedia contributor

That's well-balanced? I'd love to see an example of baised reporting then...

No mention of:
The fake affidavit attributed to the Palestinian camera-man, which formed the basis for the many reports (including Fisk's) condemning the Israeli's actions The fact the IDF initially admitted responsibility but only later after an investigation concluded that the child had "probably" been killed by Palestinian fire. The journalist responsible for the voice-over, Charles Enderlin, lied about the existing of fottage showing the actual shooting. This was confirmed after the all footage was reviewed by three senior French journalists working for independant organisations. The same footage was also shown to a journalist from the International Herald Tribune who stated the same thing. An investigation carried out by Ester Shapiro (probably Jewish, going by the name) for the German TV channel ARD, concluded that the boy could not have been shot by the Israelis. It also found the Palestinians had no carried out any form of investigation themselves, including collecting ballistics evidence from the child's body. Richard Landes, a Boston University professor, studied the full footage plus other footage from the same day an concluded the scene had probably been faked. The 'fictitious re-enactment' was actually done by an Israeli physicist and an Israeli engineer - not the Israeli army - though the army hired them to do it. The engineer told a CBS crew that he believed the shooting had been carried out by Palestinian gunmen in collusion with the cameraman to produce a power anti-Israeli propagand symbol. The IDF ordered the engineer off the investigation immediately and refused to publish the results. The fact that another journalist asked why, based upon the length and position of the shadows, the funeral appeared to happen before the boy was allegedly shot. He also asked why the father had no blood on him, having just been shot in the stomach, plus a few other questions to boot.

If Robert Fisk was being impartial and unbiased, he would have mentioned this, rather than pick the one Israeli official who disagreed with the IDF's findings, omitting to mention other investigations and evidence, getting key facts wrong about the Israeli army investigation, and then saying "Western reporters who investigated the killings concluded the the israelis had shot both the son and the father" without actually mentioning who the reporters were, or mentioning the fair few that concluded precisely the opposite.

If anything, the piece you quoted simply reinforced my point that Fisk is a disreputable lump of shit.

[Skyryder]

Why the fuck did they go to Iraq anyway? I mean we were in Afganistan looking for Bin Laden and his chronies then suddenly we were in Irq going after Hussein again. What the fuck?

The answer to question one was that the UN were coming under increasing pressure to withdraw from Iraq due to their failure to discover Weapons of Mass Destruction i.e Nukes. The withdrawal of the UN inspectors would have allowed Saddam to 'restart' his nuclear programme. Of equal importance Bush hope to establish a 'friendly' regime sympethetic to Amerca's aim of destroying bin Laden and his organisation. Problem was Bush never said this in public but any self respecting Middle east analalyst will, and have, come to this conclusion. Due to Bushes failure to find any WOMD Bushes credibilty suffered to the extant that now most belive that America went into Iraq for the oil. It did not.

Skyryder

[scracha]

Due to Bushes failure to find any WOMD Bushes credibilty suffered to the extant that now most belive that America went into Iraq for the oil. It did not.
Skyryder

Aye it did

[Skyryder]

Aye it did

If Iraq oil was so important to the US the American and coalition forces could have continued on to Bagdad. They did not. And the reason they did not is that the Arab forces would not support a full scale invasion of another Arab country. Not a great deal had changed in Middle Eastern politics in respect of the Palistinian problem until 9/11. 9/11 was the catalyst for the invasion of Iraq. It allowed for the overthrow of Saddam and the establishment of a friendly Middle Eastern regime for the purpose of intelligence gathering against bin Laden and other hostile Middle Eastern regimes. As I mentioned in my earlier post, that most believe that America went in for the oil, indicates how successful opposition to American interests have been.

Skyryder

[scracha]

9/11 was the catalyst for the invasion of Iraq. It allowed for the overthrow of Saddam and the establishment of a friendly Middle Eastern regime for the purpose of intelligence gathering against bin Laden and other hostile Middle Eastern regimes. As I mentioned in my earlier post, that most believe that America went in for the oil, indicates how successful opposition to American interests have been.

Skyryder

I'm sorry but what has 9/11 to do with Iraq? Would have made more sense to invade Saudi Arabia if that was the justification. Friendly middle eastern regime? Oh you must mean the puppet government put in place by the Americans that will be overthrown in the not to distant future.

As for intelligence gathering, they could have done that with their "friends" in Isreal, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and to a lesser extent Pakistan.

[Skyryder]

I'm sorry but what has 9/11 to do with Iraq? Would have made more sense to invade Saudi Arabia if that was the justification. Friendly middle eastern regime? Oh you must mean the puppet government put in place by the Americans that will be overthrown in the not to distant future.

As for intelligence gathering, they could have done that with their "friends" in Isreal, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and to a lesser extent Pakistan.

9/11 was the catalyst. As there was no direct link between Saddam and bin Laden the Americans dreamed up the WOMD excuse that backfired.

Why would the Americans want to invade Saudi Arabia?

The countries that you mention certainly have ties to American intelligence agencies but all are 'independent' of American influence.

Skyryder

[scracha]

Why would the Americans want to invade Saudi Arabia?

Has plenty of oil. Most of the 9/11 boys were from there. But their dictator is towing the American line so they're Ok for the moment.



The countries that you mention certainly have ties to American intelligence agencies but all are 'independent' of American influence.

If Israel is independent of American influence then I'm the Pope.

[Skyryder]

If Israel is independent of American influence then I'm the Pope.


You are mistaking 'areas of interest' with American influence.

Israel has a history of 'doing its own thing. Two that spring to mind are double the invasions of Lebanon in '82 and more recently in 2006 and the Six day war.

So how much is a Holy Indulgence worth these days? :shit:

[Waylander]

Has plenty of oil. Most of the 9/11 boys were from there. But their dictator is towing the American line so they're Ok for the moment.


If Israel is independent of American influence then I'm the Pope.
Dude America has enough of it's own oil to keep itself running for a good while yet.

It's little countries with no natural resources like oil (Eg: New Zealand) That need the oil at a cheap price that drive the global market for oil.

[MisterD]

If Israel is independent of American influence then I'm the Pope.

It's more the other way around isn't it? No US president can afford to ignore the pro-Israel jewish vote.

[Sanx]

It's more the other way around isn't it? No US president can afford to ignore the pro-Israel jewish vote.

It's not that vote really. Although a significant proportion of the population in some centres, it's completely insignificant as far as the total vote. However, you'll often find the fundamentalist Christians support Israel too, as they regard Israel as the last bastion of 'western' civilisation holding back the barbaric hordes of Islam from the holy land.

[MisterD]

It's not that vote really. Although a significant proportion of the population in some centres, it's completely insignificant as far as the total vote. However, you'll often find the fundamentalist Christians support Israel too, as they regard Israel as the last bastion of 'western' civilisation holding back the barbaric hordes of Islam from the holy land.

I should probably have phrased that better....no US President can afford to ignore the weathly and connected pro-Israel jewish lobby that can fund their campaigns. In the US there is a direct relationship between $$'s and votes.