Blind spots - or how not to follow a cage

[FROSTY]

Im cage bound at the moment and one thing I've noticed is a nasty habit of some bikers.
They ride in one of the two big blind spots in a cage.
These being in line with the two rear roof pillars. You literally dissapear from sight.
Worth keeping in mind

[Mr Merde]

Im cage bound at the moment and one thing I've noticed is a nasty habit of some bikers.
They ride in one of the two big blind spots in a cage.
These being in line with the two rear roof pillars. You literally dissapear from sight.
Worth keeping in mind

Good point to raise. i personally like to ride in such a position that I can see the cage drivers face in at least one of his mirrors. I figure that if I can see his face then in reverse he can see me and my blazing headlights.

Doesnt always work but in 35 years and a lot of kms riding i have only come into contact with 4 cars. Three of them werent my fault. one was and that was in my first week of riding and i hadnt built any skills then.

[Sparky Bills]

I make sure I can see the driver in their mirrors.
Its not hard to do. And can save your ass.

[canarlee]

maybe this happens because most if not all newbies are advised to ride in the wheeltrack of the car that they are following? this could put them in line of the said pillar?


just thinking thats all...

[Conquiztador]

Im cage bound at the moment and one thing I've noticed is a nasty habit of some bikers.
They ride in one of the two big blind spots in a cage.
These being in line with the two rear roof pillars. You literally dissapear from sight.
Worth keeping in mind

Yep, thats why I overtake cages.

[Grub]

maybe this happens because most if not all newbies are advised to ride in the wheeltrack of the car that they are following? this could put them in line of the said pillar?

You're spot on with that. I just checked it out and yep if you drop back behind the right wheel just about a 'safe' distance, you can't see the driver in their mirror.

[FROSTY]

I just checked it out this AM--if you travel to left side of the right wheel track and the right side of the left wheel track you stay visible.
Mr Merde has it--iffn you cant see their eyes they can't seey you
Watch out for cages with fogged up back windows too--they can see half of sweet stuff all.

[Drum]

All good points.

Another one worth noting, particularly at this time of year, is that if the sun is coming in low from behind you then you are almost invisible to drivers in front of you.

Banzaiiiiiiiiii

[Bend-it]

Yup, I'm ever only at a certain position relative to a car momentarily. Try to be moving in relation to other traffic as movement grabs attention.

Having said that, drivers *should* be checking our (I say 'our' because I sometimes drive too) blind spots before switching lanes.

Having having said that, they often don't and we need to allow for that or it's our skin! :)

Thanks for bringing it up frosty

[Griff]

Watch out for cages with fogged up back windows too--they can see half of sweet stuff all.

Whenever I see a cage with fogged-up back & Side windows, I will immediately get away from it ASAP.

I believe firmly that mentally they are in a rush as they couldn't be arsed to clear the windows, so they will drive erratically.
It speaks volumes about the driver. They are not arsed about anyone else's safety on the road.

Cage drivers are shit!
Before I set off, I always check my tyres, chain, indicators, brake lights and Headlights. How many car drivers EVER do that?.... The bastards!!

Oh crap I am seriously close to turning into The Cage-Punisher!
Smashing wing mirrors whilst shouting “Use It… Or Loose It ya bastards!!”:2guns:

[scumdog]

Oh crap I am seriously close to turning into The Cage-Punisher!
Smashing wing mirrors whilst shouting “Use It… Or Loose It ya bastards!!”:2guns:

THAT helps for the next biker who catches up with the now mirrorless car cruising down the motorway??

[Griff]

THAT helps for the next biker who catches up with the now mirrorless car cruising down the motorway

There you go then!

A Win-Win Solution!

[vifferman]

Whenever I see a cage with fogged-up back & Side windows, I will immediately get away from it ASAP.

I believe firmly that mentally they are in a rush as they couldn't be arsed to clear the windows, so they will drive erratically.
That raises a good point: noticing things like this will go a long way to staying alive. As a motorcyclist, you need to be VERY observant and vigilant, and don't ignore instinct or those flashes of intuition.

A few years back, I came up behind a car with fogged up windows, tootling along slowly on a suburban street. My first reaction was, "He probably hasn't seen me..." and slowed down. I also thought, "I should tootle him melodiously, so he knows I'm here." But.... I didn't, and a second later he pulled into the kerb (or the curb or kurb or cerb), so I thought, "Oh.. OK, he HAS seen me!" and proceeded to overtake. Unfortunately, he had NOT seen me, and was just doing his "half asleep, usual dumb morning routine" of getting in his car, driving a few metres down the road, crack a U-turn.

So, after $6800 worht of damage to my bike, and a lot of pain for me, I learned to not make assumptions, to use the horn to ensure cars backing out or otherwise manouevring into my path know I'm there, and to pay attention to some of the voices in my head.



But not that one that tells me to kill people. :confused:

Nor that other squeaky one that says rude things about me. :angry:




But sometimes I listen to that one that whispers naughty things...

[McJim]

I have to confess I have never been caught by surprise by a bike while in the cage. Every motorcyclist who has split past me or overtaken me I have been aware of.

Even spotted superweetard this morning on his yellow peril and he was 2 lanes over. Mind you I've been 23 years on 2 wheels and only 5 years on 4 wheels. Maybe my observation skills are biased.

Good advice Frosty but the cagers should be looking. I know that they don't.

Mr Merde has it spot on -make sure you can see the whites of their eyes.

[Ocean1]

maybe this happens because most if not all newbies are advised to ride in the wheeltrack of the car that they are following? this could put them in line of the said pillar?

That's good advice. Perhaps it does mean you're less visible but expecting any other road user to take action to avoid you is tantamount to a death wish. Bad enough if they can see you in front of them but relying on them to be aware of you behind them for your peace of mind is not a good idea.

The reason for lurking in the RH wheel tracks of a car is that when the bastard unexpectedly hits the picks he can stop a fair bit better than you can on your bike, it gives you a chance to dodge out past him while you're braking. Even if the obstacle he's trying to pull up for is an issue for you too it gives you at least the cars length extra braking room.

If the bastard happens to be driving an 18 wheeler I promise you he can stop quicker than pretty much anything else on the road. Truck or car if you think he's going to brake less hard because he's aware you're there behind him then think again. Just go ahead and assume you're invisible huh? safer all round.

[vifferman]

I have to confess I have never been caught by surprise by a bike while in the cage. ... Mind you I've been 23 years on 2 wheels and only 5 years on 4 wheels. Maybe my observation skills are biased.

Being a biker, you have to be observant if you don't want to be dead.

When I bought my first bike, my father pointed out that I needed to be like a fighter pilot, moving my head around looking in all directions (in WWII, they used to wear silk scarves to stop chafing on their neck when doing this). I guess that seeing he'd been a biker himself once, and had flown Harvards at university (ATC), he knew what he was talking about.

When my wife was commuting by bus all the time, she was a terrible passenger to have in the car. Her observation skills were rusty, and she was much less aware of what was going on around her than I was, because I commuted by bike every day. I'd have noticed something and dismissed it or responded to it, and a few seconds later, there'd be a sharp intake of breath from the passenger seat, or a "Look out!", and I'd freak out, wondering WTF I'd missed seeing.

Unlike you, I have missed seeing bikes - usually when I'm sitting in traffic in the car, and one lanesplits past me. Gives me a hell of a fright if it's a noisy one, so it MUST be a good thing, waking up dozy car drivers. :yes:

[Griff]

Being a biker, you have to be observant if you don't want to be dead.:
Whoa! This has just got me thinking about observational skills...
I have been riding road bikes approx 5 days per week for the last 20 years.

Last week at a cafe, I was getting grief from my wife for continually noticing people moving around the cafe and not "focusing entirely on the conversation." (I am sure all you married guys must all get that one).

But I wonder if my "Filtering Head" has been on so long now, that it is difficult to turn it off. Does anyone else exhibit this sensitivity to peripheral movement?

(I am sure that the conversation was riveting, although I can't recall what it was about).

[FROSTY]

That's good advice. Perhaps it does mean you're less visible but expecting any other road user to take action to avoid you is tantamount to a death wish. Bad enough if they can see you in front of them but relying on them to be aware of you behind them for your peace of mind is not a good idea.

The reason for lurking in the RH wheel tracks of a car is that when the bastard unexpectedly hits the picks he can stop a fair bit better than you can on your bike, it gives you a chance to dodge out past him while you're braking. Even if the obstacle he's trying to pull up for is an issue for you too it gives you at least the cars length extra braking room.

If the bastard happens to be driving an 18 wheeler I promise you he can stop quicker than pretty much anything else on the road. Truck or car if you think he's going to brake less hard because he's aware you're there behind him then think again. Just go ahead and assume you're invisible huh? safer all round.
Where do you get than information from??
An 18 wheeler stops faster than a bike. Your AVERAGE cage stops faster than a bike? (ignoring high performance cars)
I'd suggest you talk to a trucky or two before making a statement like that.

[Ocean1]

Where do you get than information from??
An 18 wheeler stops faster than a bike. Your AVERAGE cage stops faster than a bike? (ignoring high performance cars)
I'd suggest you talk to a trucky or two before making a statement like that.

Ignoring aerodynamic considerations (the reason an F1 cage can brake at about 2.5G initially) and reaction time it's down to mass and friction. And yes your average cage has a higher traction to mass ratio than a bike. Trucks vary enornously but in the right conditions an unloaded 18 wheeler can stop faster than most cars. To make the comparison even worse a bike's CG is comparitively high, which means you're effectively relying on the friction from the front wheel only.

Can't be arsed doing the google thing, if you don't want to believe your average car can out-brake a bike go right ahead.

[Coldrider]

I ride on the left hand edge of the RH wheel rut, usually its nice & clean but picking up the unworn courseness for grip.
If there are any other factors involved than you could be following the vehicle in front vehicle to closely. Even the 2 second rule is not always adequate, I'm usually trying to protect the space in front of me from other cages. Also drivers are lazy and tend to mimic what is happening up front, so they are likely to create more of a gap behind you as well.:scooter:
But hey, I don't live in a large overcaged populated area.

[eldog]

Currently having a lively debate with some cagers who think "why bother to look for blind spots as we know they are there but you can't see them, so why bother looking in the first place.":brick:


trying to get them to look over over shoulder to minimise blind spot, seems like I am pushing the proverbial.....:crazy:

i try and ride ride so I can be seen, but the number of times I have seen others just change lanes, without looking or indicating just seems to be on the increase, particularly the closer to dorkland Yi travel.

[R650R]

Ignoring aerodynamic considerations (the reason an F1 cage can brake at about 2.5G initially) and reaction time it's down to mass and friction. And yes your average cage has a higher traction to mass ratio than a bike. Trucks vary enornously but in the right conditions an unloaded 18 wheeler can stop faster than most cars. To make the comparison even worse a bike's CG is comparitively high, which means you're effectively relying on the friction from the front wheel only.

Can't be arsed doing the google thing, if you don't want to believe your average car can out-brake a bike go right ahead.

I think your probably right, never done the numbers though. The last linehaul truck i was shackled to had a disc braked tractor unit with EBS on that and the drum braked trailer. Also had 5 stage 900kw worth of hydraulic braker via gearbox retarder that automatically used at least stage 2 of that when touching brake pedal.
The beauty of EBS over ABS is that it senses in microseconds the speed at which your foot is pressing the brake pedal and KNOWS you NEED an emergency stop before you've even got the pedal to the floor. It then ramps each individual brake up to its lock up point and backs off a fraction of a notch.
On the odd occasion i had to do proper emergency stops i wa suitably impressed.
Overseas i drove units that also had disc braked trailers and WOW they were good alright...

Bikes are good and braking from higher speeds but at road legal speeds half decent cages prob have it over bikes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ridS396W2BY

[jasonu]

Watch out for cages with fogged up back windows too--they can see half of sweet stuff all.

You see quite a bit of this around here.
Not that you would be riding your bike at the same time though...324735

[Aphro_Ant]

In response to Ocean1's claim that cages and trucks can brake better than a bike.

Why is it then your average good truck driver follows a 4-5 second rule instead of the 2 second rule? It is because unless they are driving the latest and greatest Volvo truck the stopping distance is much higher.

My BHS trainer told me that your average bike has a better stopping distance over your average car, so to watch out for getting rear ended by stopping too fast.

Although it is an Australian video, I did google it and came across this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loaJVp4ARZA in saying that bikes, cars and trucks vary so much within their class of vehicle there can be times where this is untrue.

Therefore probably the best thing to do is in a safe environment test your bike's braking as safely as possible, as to know what you can do and what you can't before you have to. I know my bike can out brake my cage and my cage can out brake a Suzuki GN250 or similar, I know this as I have tested both, the bike I tested intentionally and the cage I tested unintentionally.

[mossy1200]

True story

Today I was in work ute at Lower Hutt lights on hw2. When the lights changed green 2 cars left the line and then both had to stop as a Holden came down from the hills at 80plus kph straight through a red and into the Hutt. Im so glad the rider beside me hadn't cut to the front of the waiting traffic. If any bike had split to the front of the traffic and then left on the green I would have been watching a death rather than near miss. Be careful out there.

[Coldrider]

In response to Ocean1's claim that cages and trucks can brake better than a bike.

Why is it then your average good truck driver follows a 4-5 second rule instead of the 2 second rule? It is because unless they are driving the latest and greatest Volvo truck the stopping distance is much higher.

My BHS trainer told me that your average bike has a better stopping distance over your average car, so to watch out for getting rear ended by stopping too fast.

Although it is an Australian video, I did google it and came across this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loaJVp4ARZA in saying that bikes, cars and trucks vary so much within their class of vehicle there can be times where this is untrue.

Therefore probably the best thing to do is in a safe environment test your bike's braking as safely as possible, as to know what you can do and what you can't before you have to. I know my bike can out brake my cage and my cage can out brake a Suzuki GN250 or similar, I know this as I have tested both, the bike I tested intentionally and the cage I tested unintentionally.if you end up dead by being out braked by a larger vehicle, be sure to take your BHS handling skills manual to the pearly gates, with good debate with St Peter you may get a voucher back to Earth.

[Aphro_Ant]

if you end up dead by being out braked by a larger vehicle, be sure to take your BHS handling skills manual to the pearly gates, with good debate with St Peter you may get a voucher back to Earth.

Yeah, thanks for that Coldrider. I am guessing you didn't watch the video I attached and I guess you won't bother checking this link out either http://www.therideadvice.com/can-motorcycle-brake-faster-car/

It is not like I said I would be able to out brake everything else on my bike. All I was trying to say is the laws of Physics are what they are and can't be broken. The mass difference is a huge advantage to the bike. I was more trying to encourage others to know their bike better and not believe the backwards Physics some of you seem to believe, as the likelihood of someone thinking they can't brake very fast is they won't be able to brake very fast. There is lots of things to take into account in regards to braking, but the main ones are mass and braking surface (as in tire surface on the ground), yes the bike looses out to the others when it comes to braking surface but wins on the others. But in saying all that most bikes can do a lot more than the rider can, as handling and rider ability comes into play and likely cancels all the above out anyway.

I am still going to follow all other vehicles at a safe distance (2 second rule) and not do anything stupid just because I know my bike can brake fast and well. I am far from stupid and am not going for a Darwin award anytime soon, maybe when I am really old and lost my marbles but by that stage it probably wouldn't be considered for a Darwin award.

So in short what I guess I am trying to say is, don't say you can't before you try and try before you have to do.

[TheDemonLord]

Yeah, thanks for that Coldrider. I am guessing you didn't watch the video I attached and I guess you won't bother checking this link out either http://www.therideadvice.com/can-motorcycle-brake-faster-car/

It is not like I said I would be able to out brake everything else on my bike. All I was trying to say is the laws of Physics are what they are and can't be broken. The mass difference is a huge advantage to the bike. I was more trying to encourage others to know their bike better and not believe the backwards Physics some of you seem to believe, as the likelihood of someone thinking they can't brake very fast is they won't be able to brake very fast. There is lots of things to take into account in regards to braking, but the main ones are mass and braking surface (as in tire surface on the ground), yes the bike looses out to the others when it comes to braking surface but wins on the others. But in saying all that most bikes can do a lot more than the rider can, as handling and rider ability comes into play and likely cancels all the above out anyway.

I am still going to follow all other vehicles at a safe distance (2 second rule) and not do anything stupid just because I know my bike can brake fast and well. I am far from stupid and am not going for a Darwin award anytime soon, maybe when I am really old and lost my marbles but by that stage it probably wouldn't be considered for a Darwin award.

So in short what I guess I am trying to say is, don't say you can't before you try and try before you have to do.

2 words:

Contact Patch

1 more word:

Lowside

And a final statement - The increased Mass of a car serves to enhance the friction between the road and the tyre due to the weight transfer in braking.

There's a 5th gear vid showing a BMW 2 series outbraking an S1000RR (although the vid is a bit staged, he had the rear wheel in the air during braking)

[Ulsterkiwi]

not many riders or drivers know how to maximise the performance of their vehicle, be that going around the bendy bits or bringing things to a stop.
So leaving aside what a particular vehicle is theoretically capable of, lets consider what is likely to happen. As a rule drivers and riders do not allow sufficient following distance between themselves and any vehicles in front of them. As a rule, drivers and riders do not observe what is happening sufficiently far ahead of themselves to be able to respond to significant changes in speed or position in a smooth and controlled manner. To illustrate what I am suggesting, think of any rush hour traffic scenario you have been in, how often have you seen a driver or rider having to suddenly jump on the picks because "the dickhead in front just stopped without any warning" and for their own part they come to a stop mere millimetres from the bumper of the vehicle in front? In most cases there has been the combination of too short a following distance and not enough forward observation. i.e. the scenario need not happen.
So if this is going to happen in front of you, why not behind you? Your BHS instructor may well have been talking about the scenario where a rider does not pay enough attention to what is happening behind them. Its not a dumb assumption to work on the premise that the cager behind you will not be at a safe following distance and will not be observing what is going on more than 3 seconds ahead of them on the road, perhaps even as little as 1.5seconds. So if you "suddenly" come to a stop, they are not prepared to do so and drive up your arse. How to fix? If by your own constant observation traffic behind you is not maintaining a decent following distance and not looking ahead then you increase your own following distance so you can brake more slowly in the event of having to. Also by keeping the limits of your own forward observation well ahead (say 16 seconds) your own actions in response to that information will not be so "sudden" to following traffic.

[Coldrider]

Yeah, thanks for that Coldrider. I am guessing you didn't watch the video I attached and I guess you won't bother checking this link out either http://www.therideadvice.com/can-motorcycle-brake-faster-car/

It is not like I said I would be able to out brake everything else on my bike. All I was trying to say is the laws of Physics are what they are and can't be broken. The mass difference is a huge advantage to the bike. I was more trying to encourage others to know their bike better and not believe the backwards Physics some of you seem to believe, as the likelihood of someone thinking they can't brake very fast is they won't be able to brake very fast. There is lots of things to take into account in regards to braking, but the main ones are mass and braking surface (as in tire surface on the ground), yes the bike looses out to the others when it comes to braking surface but wins on the others. But in saying all that most bikes can do a lot more than the rider can, as handling and rider ability comes into play and likely cancels all the above out anyway.

I am still going to follow all other vehicles at a safe distance (2 second rule) and not do anything stupid just because I know my bike can brake fast and well. I am far from stupid and am not going for a Darwin award anytime soon, maybe when I am really old and lost my marbles but by that stage it probably wouldn't be considered for a Darwin award.

So in short what I guess I am trying to say is, don't say you can't before you try and try before you have to do.

No I didn't watch the video nor read most of your rant. I have done advanced learning skills on the track and know how fast my bike will stop. That has no influence on other vehicles. If you have to emergency brake it is most likely you have failed in another skill first. No wonder the motorcycle fatality rate is climbing. Good luck with your learning.

[Gremlin]

Contact patch has been mentioned. Yes, a bike is lighter, but has a far smaller contact patch. Unless you're riding one of the latest bikes with advanced ABS, a rider also has a more difficult time maximising braking force. A car driver simply has to ignore the vibrating peddle and mash it to the floor.

Further, while you may be able to stop quickly, consider the car behind engrossed in their mobile. You might stop short, but will they? You could well end up the meat in a sandwich.

You're best to use the manoeuvrability of the bike to gain good forward observation, slow down early for issues ahead and thereby manage the speed of the traffic following you, give them time to pay attention etc.

[WristTwister]

I've seen emergency braking demonstrations of bikes stopping with and without ABS and none could match a car with ABS.

This video adds that the rider's skill comes into play as well.
https://www.facebook.com/itsafinelinewa/videos/vb.527908344001581/914527295339682/?type=2&theater

Of course anecdotes are just as valid as proper studies.<_<

[mossy1200]

I don't like follow close behind anything due to the risk of getting stone chips.

[rastuscat]

I don't like follow close behind anything due to the risk of getting stone chips.

It's Ghost chips that worry me most.

I think that to a degree folk are missing the point here. Following distance is not just about being able to stop more quickly.

Following distance is about visibility. Hiding yourself behind a vehicle because you fancy your chances of out braking the driver both makes you harder for others to see, and reduces your forward visibility.

Do a cost/benefit analysis of following too close. No benefits, plenty of costs.

[Black Knight]

A safe following distance gap will soon be filled by another vehicle,especially on the Auckland Motorway system (without indicating I might add),drop back to create a new safe gap and that will be taken quicker than shit off a shovel.Eventually I guess you will reach your destination.

[rastuscat]

A safe following distance gap will soon be filled by another vehicle,especially on the Auckland Motorway system (without indicating I might add),drop back to create a new safe gap and that will be taken quicker than shit off a shovel.Eventually I guess you will reach your destination.

Thats the justification most folk pull out for following too closely. I still cant see why you would sacrifice safety for the extra 3 seconds you gain by not simply allowing someone in and just giving them distance too.

[Aphro_Ant]

No I didn't watch the video nor read most of your rant. I have done advanced learning skills on the track and know how fast my bike will stop. That has no influence on other vehicles. If you have to emergency brake it is most likely you have failed in another skill first. No wonder the motorcycle fatality rate is climbing. Good luck with your learning.

In other words you were just being a troll. Thank you for that.

I am sure you therefore don't care that I have survived just fine riding around Auckland with some of most useless drivers around and got my restricted license just fine with zero mistakes.

Back to the original thread - The best place to be from what I've been told and seen is on the left hand side of the right hand wheel of the cage you are following and at a safe distance.

Back to my original rant - Pretend you haven't been seen even if you make eye contact with the driver, know you bike and know your limits or skill level. Try to be ready for the worst, like that driver that changes two lanes at one time without indicating or checking their blind-spot into the lane you were in.

[Berries]

Hope you can brake quicker than you responded to that.

[Graystone]

Do a cost/benefit analysis of following too close. No benefits, plenty of costs.

Ahhh, but how close is too close? how fast is too fast for the conditions? and just how long is this piece of string?

[jellywrestler]

and just how long is this piece of string? depends on the brand of tampon.

[caspernz]

Ahhh, but how close is too close? how fast is too fast for the conditions? and just how long is this piece of string?


depends on the brand of tampon.

Either way you're lighting the fuse on an unhappy outcome...

The question that has to go along with following distance (or positioning for that matter) is why am I here? Is there a benefit to being up close (or positioned where I am) and if you can't answer that, well it's time for a re-think :sweatdrop:sweatdrop

[Coldrider]

In other words you were just being a troll. Thank you for that.

I am sure you therefore don't care that I have survived just fine riding around Auckland with some of most useless drivers around and got my restricted license just fine with zero mistakes.

Back to the original thread - The best place to be from what I've been told and seen is on the left hand side of the right hand wheel of the cage you are following and at a safe distance.

Back to my original rant - Pretend you haven't been seen even if you make eye contact with the driver, know you bike and know your limits or skill level. Try to be ready for the worst, like that driver that changes two lanes at one time without indicating or checking their blind-spot into the lane you were in.
In 13 months you got your restricted, well done you, I got my rideforever Gold badge, I take it out of the China cabinet every Saturday morning and polish it with brasso, and spit, then ride how I want.

[FJRider]

In other words you were just being a troll. Thank you for that.

I am sure you therefore don't care that I have survived just fine riding around Auckland with some of most useless drivers around and got my restricted license just fine with zero mistakes.

Back to the original thread - The best place to be from what I've been told and seen is on the left hand side of the right hand wheel of the cage you are following and at a safe distance.

Back to my original rant - Pretend you haven't been seen even if you make eye contact with the driver, know you bike and know your limits or skill level. Try to be ready for the worst, like that driver that changes two lanes at one time without indicating or checking their blind-spot into the lane you were in.

Not a troll kid. A license and a certificate from a riding school ... is just proof you were a good boy (or girl) on the day.

Not all learner riders die in their first year of riding. Usually it's within the first year of getting their full ... when they deem themselves to be knowing all there is to know about riding motorcycles.

Don't believe everything you've been told. Not all cage pilots look in the same mirrors ... not all even look at all. They may even see you ... but pay you no regard whatsoever in their actions. Do not expect them to either. The only safe place is in bed ... and people die there too ...

If you have just got your restricted ... I doubt if you actually know what your limits are ... probably a lot less than you think.

And ... there's plenty of "those" drivers/riders about ... don't be one of them ...

[FJRider]

depends on the brand of tampon.

Or what your line of thinking is ... :shifty:

[caspernz]

Not all learner riders die in their first year of riding. Usually it's within the first year of getting their full ... when they deem themselves to be knowing all there is to know about riding motorcycles.


I've had my full license for over 30 years, and despite some shiny certificates/diplomas/badges, I'll freely admit to learning all the time. Must be that open mind thing...

Am I at risk of running over a dog now? Or can I just leave my fate to lady luck? :facepalm::innocent::shutup::sunny::violin::shit:: laugh::no::wings::eek::bleh::doh:

[Voltaire]

I've had my full license for over 30 years, and despite some shiny certificates/diplomas/badges, I'll freely admit to learning all the time. Must be that open mind thing...

Am I at risk of running over a dog now? Or can I just leave my fate to lady luck? :facepalm::innocent::shutup::sunny::violin::shit:: laugh::no::wings::eek::bleh::doh:

Given the demograph in Auckland I'd say a lot must leave their fate to Allah, Apple or Darwin

Those wheeled box things on the road are totally unpredictable so I keep well away from them when possible....and

dogs.:rolleyes:

[Coldrider]

I ride on the left hand edge of the RH wheel rut, usually its nice & clean but picking up the unworn courseness for grip.
If there are any other factors involved than you could be following the vehicle in front vehicle to closely. Even the 2 second rule is not always adequate.........


....

Back to the original thread - The best place to be from what I've been told and seen is on the left hand side of the right hand wheel of the cage you are following and at a safe distance.
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Fuck I'm good, please reference me in future, instead of calling me a troll. The debate was over stopping distances of different class of vehicles.