Riding in the wheeltrack of the car in front of you? [Archive]

McJim

16th August 2007, 16:25

Probably because the REAL blindspot is actually to the right of the RH wheeltrack.

In my car the mirrors are correctly adjusted. The blind spot is about 1 metre from my right shoulder. It's not really blind as I can almost cover it with peripheral vision - a quick glance right can fill the blind spot.

I can see motorcyclists in my RH wheeltrack in both RH mirror and centre mirror.

I cannot see the motorcyclist while they are overtaking me however. Does that mean motorcyclists should never overtake cars?

Ever sat too close to the car in front between the wheel tracks and the driver drives straight over a piece of 4X4 timber? you don't see it until it's 1 metre from your front wheel and you're travelling at 120kph about to overtake? the front wheel slides or stops and you're surfing down the tarmac on your arse followed by 200kg of angry bouncing metal...

Right wheel track + 2 second rule = happiness and joy.

kiwifruit

16th August 2007, 16:27

i do it, the right wheel track, but i dont follow cars for long, only just b4 i pass them, etc

Ralph

16th August 2007, 16:32

I was always taught from day one of learning to ride that riding in the wheel
track is the safest place, you miss the majority of oil spots plus your less
likely to get a puncture as they've just driven over where your riding.
Also cars, trucks what ever flick debris to the centre of the road as well
as the centre of your lane.
And in the rain they have already displaced water from your line.
In my opinion it's not a blind spot at all unless your too close.

Jantar

16th August 2007, 16:37

I find that for most vehicles if I ride in the RH wheel track then I can not see the face of the driver in front in either of his mirrors. I tend to postion myself in such a place that I can see the face of the driver in front, and that is usually in the same part of the road that I'd be in if I was driving a cage. ie, just to the left of the wheel track, and to the right of the centerline.

For some vehicles like 4x4s, trucks, busses etc, its immediately to the right of the wheel track.

But the over riding rule is to always be able to see the driver in front through his mirrors.

Ocean1

16th August 2007, 16:41

Good place to be, dryer in the wet, swept clear of debris. And the big one: gives you a chance to step 1M to the right if the car does something stupid, and that extra road can make all the difference. Is not however a licence to creep up on the following distance.

The one time it's not a good idea is following a dual tyred truck, they pick up crap and eventually chuck them at unsuspecting bikers. I once had 1/2 a briick miss my head by not very fucking much.

ManDownUnder

16th August 2007, 16:50

I'll ride in the wheeltrack but hang back so I'm visible in the mirros. If you are close to a car then no - never.

On wet days (he says looking out the window) it's ok to do becuase it's the drier place on the road - but yes, do it with caution. I live by the rule that I need to see the eyes of the driver/rider in front of me. It applies to this situation too.

Cave Cleaner

16th August 2007, 16:54

i see people are voting but not commenting!

so come on why do you think its safe to ride in one of the biggest blind spots of a car?
If you ride in the outer wheel track, and back far enough,you would be in the car drivers view via his door mirror, so as i see it that must be safer if you can be seen, also i agree about the oil and crap on the road if you ride in between wheels.

canarlee

16th August 2007, 16:57

Agreed...100%
I usually won't ride in the RH wheel track as I've been hit by a piece of wood,rocks/stones etc after they've been flicked up. Wasn't pleasant.

However like KF I tend not to follow cars/vans/trucks if I can safely over take

more logic to my argument!

Jantar

16th August 2007, 17:05

If you ride in the outer wheel track, and back far enough,you would be in the car drivers view via his door mirror, so as i see it that must be safer if you can be seen, also i agree about the oil and crap on the road if you ride in between wheels.

That depends on how far out from the body of the car the wing mirror is, and on the shape of the side of the vehicle etc. There are a lot of vehicles that have a blind spot extending back a long way directly in line with the wheel track. Position yourself with respect to the mirrors rather than the wheels and you'll be a lot safer.

canarlee

16th August 2007, 17:07

That depends on how far out from the body of the car the wing mirror is, and on the shape of the side of the vehicle etc. There are a lot of vehicles that have a blind spot extending back a long way directly in line with the wheel track. Position yourself with respect to the mirrors rather than the wheels and you'll be a lot safer.

now that is more my way of thinking!

i just couldnt think of the words lol

Ocean1

16th August 2007, 17:19

Who cares if they can see you or not? You relying on them to keep outa your way? Bad idea. Do you seriously think if they suddenly wake up and see that poor wee puddytat jump out onto the road and hit the picks that they're going to brake less hard because they know there's a bike behind them?

Ride like you're invisible, don't ever depend on anyone else's skill or behaviour. If you're within range of anything else that's physically capable of tagging you then you've already fucked up.

discotex

16th August 2007, 17:21

It's just a guide. Gotta pick the best road position for the situation.

On the motorway I ride to the left of the lane if I'm in the far right lane. Puts me in the mirrors of the person to the left of me and I don't have oncomming cars to worry about seeing me when they turn right.

Riding in the right wheel track isn't just about the car in front. Sure you may be in their blind spot but that's more than made up for by the fact that oncomming traffic can see you before they turn right across your path.

If you're following distance is ok and you can see the driver in their mirrors it cancels out the blindspot. The driver isn't likely to check their mirrors before doing a u-turn anyway so this is all academic I guess.

canarlee, are you suggesting people follow the left wheel track, the middle of the car, or to the right of the wheel track instead? IMO of all of those only the latter could be of any benefit. I do that so I can see clearly up the road for said piece of 4x2 etc.

avgas

16th August 2007, 17:21

i see people are voting but not commenting!
so come on why do you think its safe to ride in one of the biggest blind spots of a car?
So that would be anywhere from 2 o'clock to 10 clock in the drivers position then?
Biggest blind spot in most cars is at in the back right and right corners, not directly behind in the wheel tracks (assuming you do a 2 second rule).
But i still don't riding in the wheel track is safe - nor is riding outside of the wheel track.

Kendog

16th August 2007, 17:28

I have noticed when Mrs Kendog is following me at night, if she is in the right wheel track her headlight is in line with the car behind her. The lights blend in and she becomes near invisible when looking back in the mirrors.

The same may apply the other way with the tail lights blending together, I have not tested or noticed this.

canarlee

16th August 2007, 17:33

IMO of all of those only the latter could be of any benefit. I do that so I can see clearly up the road for said piece of 4x2 etc.

that is what i do.

i started this thread to try and see how differently people felt about this, also because as i have said before, most if not all newbies are just told to ride in the right wheel track and i think this is wrong!

Mom

16th August 2007, 17:45

Seems this one is well covered here, but yes r/h wheel track, specially in the wet. Avoids all the oil and crap left in the middle of the riding lane. Far enough back to eyeball the driver in the mirror. Dont sit behind them too long, get past at first safe opportunity.

I was taught that taking the r/h wheel track gave you better "ownership" of your piece of road.

Originally Posted by canarlee
i see people are voting but not commenting!
so come on why do you think its safe to ride in one of the biggest blind spots of a car?

Just saw this. Not in their blindspot! Where you can eyeball them, to the right of the lane you are travelling in.

Goblin

16th August 2007, 17:48

MSTRS

16th August 2007, 18:12

The question is 'Is it safe to ride in the wheeltrack...'
The answer is "It isn't safe anywhere on the road, but the righthand wheel track is generally the best position, bearing in mind that proper riding means you will move within your lane as necessary"

BMW

16th August 2007, 18:26

I used to ride right in the centre of the car infront.

But not now. had a really good accident from doing just that!

Was going along the motorways on a nice sunny day thru spagetti junction area. I moved from one lane to the other one doing ariund 90km/hr. The speed limit at the time was 80 so I was a little fast but not hooning.
As i moved to the centre of the car I ran over a large brick!! yes the car had driven over it and since it was in the centre of the lane never touched it.
The damage was pretty good. The large chuck out of front tyre and rim ( see attached pic). The the rock hit the bottom of the bike. Taking out a 'hole' in the lower faring and breaking most of the support struts and then exited out damaging the rear rim!

The insurance company was not happy replacing both rims!

So now I have learnt to never ride in the centre of a lane again!

YLWDUC

16th August 2007, 18:30

Well the only other place to ride would be inthe centre of the lane, and in this weather that means a lot of oil and stuff coming up out of the tarmac... I think I'd rather keep a safe stopping distance and ride in the wheel track.

Well said. You'd be in the cars blind spot if you were following too close. Cars usually dodge and swerve to avoid things, so if the crap is already in the middle of the road you don't get any warning (cause the car doesn't swerve.) Riding in the right wheel track also puts you in line with a cars brake lights etc, so I reckon it makes you more noticeable to the cars behind you. Plus, it makes them less likely to want to overtake if you're actually obeying the speed limit :innocent:

Anyhow, thats my two cents

terbang

16th August 2007, 19:04

The right wheel track is a good place to be for all of the reasons allready mentioned. But its not the only place to ride in all of the time. If you are going to hold that position, let them know you are there. Often a gentle weave across the width of the car as you approach will help them see you and once they have seen you, things get exponentially safer. But then never trust a cage driver either. You will see them looking for you in their mirrors once they know you are around and its just plain smarter to hang back a bit to stay within their vision. Tailgating is just dumb. If you are in close enough to be exposed to their blind spot, then you are probably moving in for an overtake. Right?

BarBender

16th August 2007, 20:12

i do it, the right wheel track, but i dont follow cars for long, only just b4 i pass them, etc

+ 1..........

James Deuce

16th August 2007, 20:19

If you're riding so close that you can't see what the vehicle in front is about to run over you're too close. You deserve to get hit by whatever emerges from underneath the vehicle in front.

It doesn't much matter where you ride in the lane so long as you aren't tailgating.

Use the lane to your advantage - the ability to move around in our lane is the one major advantage we have over other vehicles.

Having said that I mostly ride in the right hand wheel track, primarily to stop traffic overtaking me in my lane and trying to push me off the road. I've had that happen more often than I've had to dodge stuff I didn't see in front of the vehicle ahead.

sunhuntin

16th August 2007, 20:37

I'm never comfortable following any vehicle. If I must sit behind something I like to move from side to side. Depends on the road too. I like to avoid potholes and bumps and corrugations so Im constantly changing line. Ultimately I like a clear road in front so overtake when it's safe to.

I'm especially scared following large lorries. You ever seen one of their tyres explode?:gob:

i do the same. always moving, dipping and weaving. in town, ill ride to the right of the wheel track, not only so i can be seen, but also so i can see. open road, it all depends. sometimes ill be hard right, other times hard left. other times, ill be in the middle.
cobham bridge is a 2 lane 80k bridge here in wangas. i take it both to and from work. when crossing it, i ride the center of the lane, as it is too narrow for me to feel comfy riding the wheel track [the oncoming traffic looks closer than it likely really is.] once im off the bridge, i move back to the right.

mbazza

16th August 2007, 20:42

I ride where ever I can see the face of the driver. Usually the right wheel track. This gives me three quarters of my lane and all of the other lane (traffic free) to use to dodge stuff. If I'm far enough back with a dop down in gear I'm in a good position to start a passing manouvre. Cheers:yes:

Oakie

16th August 2007, 20:50

I don't think it is a blind spot either. Possibly from a wing mirror but not the interior mirror
In decent rain I'll often ride in the right wheel track but I don't concentrate on doing so because that takes attention away from other stuff going on around me. In anything else I tend to ride just to the right of the vehicle ahead so I can see what's happening ahead.
I do make it a habit when I'm riding to check if I can see the face of the driver in front in his mirrors as at least that means he'll see me if he cares to look. It's quite surprising what you see doing that too ... like yesterday the woman driving along with her cup of coffee in one hand and texting with the other. I think the coffee hand had the steering wheel.

Skyryder

16th August 2007, 22:02

I ride to the right most of the time. Depends but sometimes I go as far to the right as possible. That way I get a clearer view of what's up ahead. However if I am sitting behind I'm aback a bit and will on occasions slide over to left just tl let the driver know where I am and then come back over to the right. On a motoway and cruising I go centre to stop any vehicle coming up along side and forcing me off the road.

Riding the right track is usually the place to be but there are at times alternitives.

Skyryder

Guitana

16th August 2007, 22:10

I don't see that it matters!!! Most Cagers are blind and claim they never saw you coming anyway,even though you were wearing day glo riding gear, had your lights on high beam, and were waving your arms and tooting your horn!!!
They should conduct an experiment, stick a picture of a motorcycle on the front of a kenworth truck, and see if any cagers pull out in front of it or try to run it off the road!! The results would be interesting!

ozrobo

16th August 2007, 22:18

its safest were you feel safest at the end of the day and if your bike is loud enough they know ur there and i dont stay behind them long enough for it to matter

KoroJ

16th August 2007, 22:20

canarlee

16th August 2007, 22:36

I tend to ride out to the right and get my lights right in their mirror. Makes me feel safer to get close because I,m effectively beside them, I can see the road and it encourages them to move to the left for me to slide right on through.

yeah thats what i do, i am to the right of the wheel track and they allways move left and let me pass (well most do), if i stay in the right wheel track they never move over! hmm i wonder why?

honestly peeps, give it a go and see what happens!

idb

16th August 2007, 22:42

Jantar

16th August 2007, 22:47

Best post...listen to this man.
And for what it's worth I always ride at the right corner of the vehicle in front so that I have stopping space if I need it.
And that way trucks and busses also know that you are there. In the wheel track you are completely hidden.

Chickadee

16th August 2007, 22:51

I ride in the right side of the lane most of the time. Riding in the wheel track of a car may be a bad idea. I didn't see a pot hole in heavy traffic and narrowly avoided landing in the b*stard (big deep mother). Tall cars and 4WD's are bad for visability, cars can't see you behind them and think there's a gap - brown pants moment for riders. People should ride where they're comfortable riding and being seen (varying upon circumstances of traffic and road conditions).

98tls

16th August 2007, 22:54

Quite often you see stickers on the back of trucks that say "if you cant see my mirrors then i cant see you".

Fireyawn

16th August 2007, 22:57

For the 2 seconds I stay behind a car it is the right wheel track for me. 1 2 indicate, overtake- no more problem

canarlee

16th August 2007, 23:13

And that way trucks and busses also know that you are there. In the wheel track you are completely hidden.

thankyou!!!

James Deuce

16th August 2007, 23:45

And that way trucks and busses also know that you are there. In the wheel track you are completely hidden.

You're too close if that is the case.

Boob Johnson

17th August 2007, 00:02

I cant be assed to read all the posts here but the rode code & experienced riders have told me to follow the right hand track of the cage in front. Its safest for many reasons all of which have been covered in previous posts no doubt.

Good to see an overwhelming majority agree :sunny:

If for nothing else if the clown in front slams on his anchors & your not paying attention then you can dive easily up the guts to avoid a fork to tail :innocent:

canarlee

17th August 2007, 00:05

You're too close if that is the case.

d00d, try it next time you are out on ya bike! prolly not too close just in the wrong place, as said before, to the right of the wheeltrack is prolly the best place!

or if you aint in a hurry then right in the middle, that way you cant help but be seen in their rear view mirror! (which is my original point)

sorry to be trying to argue this point but what i am trying to say is; stop telling all newbies that riding in the right hand wheel track will solve their problems, which is what seems to be happening! that was the first comment i saw on a thread about a newbie rider riding home for the first time in the rain! that aint allways going to be the answer! i think the answer should have been something like this "ride how you normally would (unless you are a speed freak etc), just plan a little further ahead!" or some such similar. why feel scared to ride in the rain? most people that ride on the roads have good tyres, and those tyres that the average joe uses are as good in the wet as they are in the dry!

i guess what i am saying is the training/teaching methods havent evolved like they need to have! get out of your old habits folks!

slowpoke

17th August 2007, 04:31

d00d, try it next time you are out on ya bike! prolly not too close just in the wrong place, as said before, to the right of the wheeltrack is prolly the best place!

Riding to the right of the right-hand wheel track means you are effectively riding in "suicide alley" when you don't need to. You've just reduced the buffer between you and oncoming traffic. In an emergency situation there is now a much greater risk of inspecting the grill of a truck with a combined impact speed of 200km/h. There may be more frequent hazards but the worst possible consequence (head on) arises from the traffic in the other lane, so I want a bit more room that what you propose.

or if you aint in a hurry then right in the middle, that way you cant help but be seen in their rear view mirror! (which is my original point)

Why are you fixated on the driver in front of you seeing you? His responsibilities are towards those drivers in front of him, not behind. What action do you expect him to take as a result of seeing you? Ride as though you know he hasn't seen you. Why pick the most slippery bit of road you can find when there is a clear alternative?

sorry to be trying to argue this point but what i am trying to say is; stop telling all newbies that riding in the right hand wheel track will solve their problems, which is what seems to be happening! that was the first comment i saw on a thread about a newbie rider riding home for the first time in the rain! that aint allways going to be the answer! i think the answer should have been something like this "ride how you normally would (unless you are a speed freak etc), just plan a little further ahead!" or some such similar. why feel scared to ride in the rain? most people that ride on the roads have good tyres, and those tyres that the average joe uses are as good in the wet as they are in the dry!

Why would you not plan as far ahead as possible in the dry? Wet dead or dry dead you are still dead.
"Ride like I normally would" in the rain? No thanks. I'll leave a greater following distance, I'll corner a bit more sedately, accelerate more gently and generally ride as though I had my nana with a heart condition on the pillion seat. I have absolutely nothing to gain from doing otherwise....on the other hand I have absolutely everything to lose by not respecting the conditions. Sorry mate, but the average tyre doesn't grip in the wet anywhere near as well as it does in the dry.

i guess what i am saying is the training/teaching methods havent evolved like they need to have! get out of your old habits folks!

Just to further screw with your head I was taught by a qualified instructor to ride in the left hand wheel track, unless I'm positioning to pass. The road is clean, I've got a good view of potential tossers pulling out from the left and they can see me, I have more time to react to tossers pulling across me from the right, I have a large buffer between the greatest possible hazard (oncoming traffic).
Riding on the left the worst likely outcome is hitting something stationary vs riding on the right where the worst likely outcome is hitting something coming towards you at 100km/h. I know what I've got a greater chance of surviving.

Kflasher

17th August 2007, 06:52

Yeah I have done this, the dryer the road in front can only be better....right?

Albino

17th August 2007, 08:04

If any one takes any advice as gospel without applying their own thought while riding motorcycles then they should do themselves a favour and hang up the keys now. Especially when the person giving advice is not a qualified instructor. Having said that I agree with the majority on the poll.

The general rule of thumb is that the right hand wheel track is the place to ride because:

Less road contamination
Easier to manouevour around car in front if it stops suddenly
Less likely to hit road obstacles. Debri is more likely to be pushed into the middle or side of the lane by the cars in front
No one likely to try and pass you in your lane
Good compromise of visibility and road positioning
Etc

If you are riding in the right hand lane and you cannot see the rear view mirror then you are too close (or there is another factor you need to cater for). If you keep the same distance and move into the middle of the lane you have just removed an escape route if the car stops suddenly. Yes there are exceptions and if you decide to change position consider the risks and benfits and make a logical decision.

I've never had problems, because the times that I can't see mirrors I have been following close and when I ride in not-so-sensible mode I take take full responsibility for my actions and I don't expect cars to see me.

MSTRS

17th August 2007, 09:57

Just to further screw with your head I was taught by a qualified instructor to ride in the left hand wheel track, unless I'm positioning to pass. The road is clean, I've got a good view of potential tossers pulling out from the left and they can see me, I have more time to react to tossers pulling across me from the right, I have a large buffer between the greatest possible hazard (oncoming traffic).
Riding on the left the worst likely outcome is hitting something stationary vs riding on the right where the worst likely outcome is hitting something coming towards you at 100km/h. I know what I've got a greater chance of surviving.

Can't agree with that. I know several (now ex-)bikers who lost their left leg to a car door being opened without a chance to react.
Ride to the right of the lane centre. The term 'wheeltrack' is a loose one in that cars will drive in various positions in their lane, leaving a fairly wide clean area of road on the right of lane centre. When following a car, position yourself to the left of its righthand wheels, where you can see the driver's eyes in both of his mirrors, and far enough back to give yourself reaction space.
And fucked if I will place my wheels a foot from the centreline...where do you think my righthand bar-end will be????

scumdog

17th August 2007, 10:13

Just to further screw with your head I was taught by a qualified instructor to ride in the left hand wheel track, unless I'm positioning to pass. The road is clean, I've got a good view of potential tossers pulling out from the left and they can see me, I have more time to react to tossers pulling across me from the right, I have a large buffer between the greatest possible hazard (oncoming traffic).
Riding on the left the worst likely outcome is hitting something stationary vs riding on the right where the worst likely outcome is hitting something coming towards you at 100km/h. I know what I've got a greater chance of surviving.

Ride on the left:

Generally rougher road
Road on left tends to end up with more contaminants on it.
And worse of all, one day while pootling along on the left tyre tracks you may find a large car wishing to use the same space after he has overtaken the car behind you without noticing you're there until he has started to pull back in to his left - on the right side tyre track he would have seen you as he was thinking of overtaking.:yes:

MSTRS

17th August 2007, 10:21

Road on left tends to end up with more contaminants on it.
And worse of all, one day while pootling along on the left tyre tracks you may find a large car wishing to use the same space after he has overtaken the car behind you without noticing you're there until he has started to pull back in to his left...

Good point - most roads have a camber, meaning the left side is downhill from the lane -centre splooge.
:shit: You are right there, as well

ManDownUnder

17th August 2007, 10:34

OK I took a look at this this morning on the way to work and riding in the wheeltrack with a car length gap is fine from a visibility point of view. The driver can see me from their centre mirror as well as the side mirror.

This holds true for both left and right wheel tracks.

Major blind spots are on the flanks of the car... assuming the driver looking forward is 12 o'clock, major blind spots are from 3:00 to 5:30 (RHS) , and 6:30 through to 9:00 (LHS)

There is similarly a small blind spot at about 10:00 where the door pillar blocks some view but if the driver has an issue seeing a bloody great bike around that little thing you should consider anything other than 6:00 and 12:00 to be blind spots.

If you are right up the date of a car then riding in the wheeltrack is DUMB. They brake and you'll get hurt. I hope that basic rudiments of riding safety such as that are above this conversation, but I'll throw it in for completeness' sake.

Ocean1

17th August 2007, 10:40

I like the right wheeltracks thing as a general open road policy, but I started thinking how that changes with different factors. I realised that it's something you build as a sort of sub-concious database over time. If you ride in a group with experienced guys you notice they tend to all be in similar places in the same piece of road.

It does seem intuitively correct to those who've been riding for a fair while but it's difficult to break it down into a set of specific rules or policies. I looked briefly for evidence that someone else had done the homework, perhaps for a training course. All I found was this: http://www.flamesonmytank.co.za/Traffic%20Wise.htm Which ain't a bad start, I can agree with most of it even though it's not native to NZ. It doesn't cover every situation, nor could it, but it's not a bad start.

Gassit Girl

17th August 2007, 13:42

Being in the RH wheeltrack gives you the best chance of being seen by drivers other than the one directly in front - oncoming drivers, oncoming drivers waiting to turn right, and dickheads pulling out of side roads to the left without looking. And most importantly, I see them as early as possible, giving me maximum time to take action! I see no benefit in habitually riding in either the left track or the middle, though a factor of our safety is that we can move across the lane as needed when different conditions crop up. As far as being seen by the driver directly in front, the RH wheeltrack is the place to be, so they have a chance of catching sight of you in either the rear view or the side mirror, and you can get an impression of their general manner/movements, how on-to-it they are and whether you have been seen etc.

Of course, the whole road behind is a blind spot for drivers who do not check their mirrors, and I then assume they will not keep an eye on who is behind, so I should take responsibility for my following distance, and get close to them only in a passing manoeuvre. And making eye contact with you in the mirror doesn't mean they won't still do something stupid, or just have to slam on the brakes to avoid something, giving both of you little room to move.