A sense of civic duty

[F5 Dave]

So there I am in a café quaffing my lunch with an extravagant soft drink & treat slice of fudge that I don’t really need reading the local rag (Hutt News).

They are on about the foodbank on one page & the next about pokie machines. Lower hutt recording one of the worst amounts spent on pokies, ~ $77 for every man women & child over a 3 month period. Obviously over a far smaller number of people this is a large problem raking money from those least able to afford it.

This is a form of escapism, in a similar vein to drinking, drug abuse and smoking. I could get myself in a better place ‘if I could only win Lotto’ mentality.

Shopping for entertainment absorbs people’s money. Do they really need those ‘things’? A further article is on the loss of jobs at Dux plant. Manufacturing is getting uneconomic in New Zealand.

Do we really need the cheap goods we so crave when waved in our face? Was throwing off the tariffs and protectionism of the 70s the right thing to do?

That is a hard question. One it is hard to reverse now the tiger is out of the cage.


Further thinking is at least how can I help? How can We help?

So I walked back to work waiting for an Epiphany. It didn’t come.

Can I help people with poor budgeting skills? Do we really need another ‘Money Man’ except one with no financial qualifications or experience only armed with an opinionated view of what people spend too much money on? Probably not.

It does grate me that people are being harvested for their hard earned money without fully appreciating the implications of their actions.

Which brings me back to the gambling thing I guess. I am angry at the politicians who let this sort of thing be introduced despite the problem gambling assoc screaming the troubles it would cause.

Then there are the claims that it brings in money for sporting charities etc. Oh bollocks! Only a small percentage of the take & these gains are vastly outstripped by the money extracted from the same community. Well actually the sporting clubs are probably a lot better heeled than the victims caught up in the gambling spiral.

So how do I, or possibly we, attack the current situation? I don’t think letters to the editor or local politician are going to make sod all difference.

[Hitcher]

Defending pokie machines on the basis that they provide a valuable source of income for communities, is a bit like defending tobacco products on the basis of the bountiful taxation revenues these contribute. Both arguments are facile.

New Zealand has allowed itself to be badgered into accepting pokie machines and casinos on the basis that these are signs of some sort of grown-up society. Bollocks. Pokie machines and casinos are designed to take money off people. That is their sole basis for existance. Both perform this in a manner designed to provide some sort of "excitement" for those being fleeced, in a manner not dissimilar from betting on sporting events or racehorses and dogs.

Gambling takes money away from members of our society who are least able to afford it. For many a big win is their only way out of their current circumstances. Unfortunately the actuarial odds of such an eventuality are stacked heavily against them.

What do we do about it? Start a movement to get them banned. If a couple of whingeing tree-huggers can make enough noise to stop flouride being added to drinking water, surely getting rid of publicly endorsed and regulated gambling shouldn't be too hard (Insert Tui poster here).

[jimbo600]

This shit is far too heavy for a Fri afternoon.

A more fitting discussion would be what gets you pissed quicker? Beer or wine?

[Paul in NZ]

Hmmm... I got abused by a clever guy the other day for criticising the importation of used cars from japan (despite owning one) and the sleazy tactics used to sell the things to people who cannot afford them...

I was assured that his last conversation with an MP was that access to decent, reliable cars had improved the health of poor people because it's easier for them to get to the hospital now... 'Why you can purchase a good used car for $3,000' he assured me...

This is true - I just purchased a nice reliable used car for $1,350 off trademe....BUT - I had cash and thats not what poor people have is it? No - they get sold stuff like twin turbo subaru wagons for $6K on HP that will cost them $10K when its paid off... Or an SUV that has horrendous tyre costs and fuel bills... But it never will be paid off because it will break down and cost too much to fix... Hell - a tune up is more than they can afford so they end up with a flash looking but unreliable car and are worse off....

It seems people are being rewarded for preying on the underclass.... This is NOT the kiwi way!

[007XX]

Gambling is an addiction which derives from a lack of self control of the individual affected.

Whether removing pokies will fix it, I don't think so.

I abborh gambling...wasting even 20c in a machine makes my skin crawl...
But just like any addictions, you decide to start it by "having just a go" and if you don't keep it in check it'll get out of hand.

It comes down to the individual and him or her alone to control it, not the government.

[Paul in NZ]

This shit is far too heavy for a Fri afternoon.

A more fitting discussion would be what gets you pissed quicker? Beer or wine?


Spirits.... definately.... Years of research got into that!

But! What gives you the worst hangover?

[Paul in NZ]

I abborh gambling...wasting even 20c in a machine makes my skin crawl....



I bet I hate it more than you do....

[Big Dave]

"I went to gamblers anonymous - they gave me 5 to 1 on 'I wouldn't make it.'"

[ManDownUnder]

Do exactly as you have done.

To restrict the ability of people top gamble is simply going to make it more attractive to some (I can't HAAAVE IT... I WAAAAANT IT!!!!!!). And it's going to rile others who see their freedoms being revoked (and I in turn agree with them).

The education of people about the dangers of gambling (smoking, speeding, drinking, etc etc etc) needs to be a focus, along with the highlighting of failure stories. That's the bit where NZ is too nicey nice.

Get people that have lost their homes, families, saving etc and highlight their stories. Show people the bad side of gambling (smoking drinking speeding etc). Really drum it home.

People need to make an informed choice in order to maintain their freedom. In order to do that they need both sides of the argument, not just the allure of Sky City "The most fun place in New Zealand". It should be the most certain place to lose your money in New Zealand.

The fact they get big and rich by stacking the odds against the punters should kinds ring a few bells, but human nature is such that a small expected loss with the possibility of a big win is more attractive than a small expected win with the prospect of a big loss.

Think about it - if you bought a Lotto ticket with the expected profit of $0.90 per ticket (15%... that's a good investment!) but one in a million lost their house, car, savings etc. Would you buy it?

The expected return is exactly the same, but the mentality changes.

[Drum]

Did someone say wine?

Don't mind if I do.:drinknsin

[jimbo600]

Spirits.... definately.... Years of research got into that!

But! What gives you the worst hangover?

Again, I'd have to say spirits. Man I feel crap for days after a binge on the rumbos

[F5 Dave]

. . Both arguments are facile.
. . .
With my diminutive vocabulary I had to look this word up, but in reflection I still think it would have read better as "Both arguments are faecal"

[007XX]

I bet I hate it more than you do....

*are we comparing who's arse is the tightest here?* :laugh:

Seriously though...I do not wish to come across as someone who would judge a person affected by a gambling problem.
But anyone suffering from an addiction needs to take responsabilty for their own act, and go towards rectifying their lives.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink...

[RantyDave]

A fine sense of civic duty. I commend thee.


Do we really need the cheap goods we so crave when waved in our face? ... Can I help people with poor budgeting skills? ... It does grate me that people are being harvested for their hard earned money without fully appreciating the implications of their actions.

Two problems with this.

1, You quickly get into restricting people's freedoms. Bad.

2, At some point you need to delineate between rampant pointless consumerism created by the faux desire that's the stock in trade of the advertising industry; and sensible use of one's disposable disposable income to enhance lifestyle and the enjoyment thereof. Case in point: Which side of the line does a $2k Termignoni exhaust fall?

But I have to agree that we have created an underclass - and that the line between freedom and slavery is becoming blurred. I don't know what to do about it either.

Dave

[James Deuce]

Went to a conference at Sky City in Auckland last week.

The demographic in the Casino was depressing. Especially at 8am.

I'd like to see Horse Racing, Dog Racing, Lotto, and any other form of corporatised gambling dealt to as well as Pokies.

[avgas]

It may just be me, but there are far too many fancy places down there. Which is kinda sad as everyone thinks its aucklanders that drink that frothy coffee.
Anywho back on topic (which was???)
No - you can't save the world.

[Fatjim]

I've always found the use of the word "quaffing" to be rather pretentious. And its hard to be pretentious if you misuse it too.

[LilSel]

The $$ does go back into the community...
I've been overseas 6+ times fully funded by grants/trusts from pokies.

'If you are not prepared to lose it, dont stick it in!!'.... If you get lucky, good for you... if not... and it was ya last $20... then it was a stupid idea to put it in wasnt it :done:

[F5 Dave]

The only time I've been in Sky City (didn't spend anything, I did math at school) I didn't see one person smiling, not one.

Am I my brothers keeper? Well that argument could go on all night, but the computer stays at work so I will be off home in an hour to play with my bike (Come down for a beer/gander if you are about Jim).

I didn't want to ponder too much on the manufacturing thing but there was also a M10 add in this paper. Ohh tools and cheap things! Yes this gets me that there are lots of cool things to buy. But are we be better off having to save up for the decent Stanley woodplane rather that the two $20 ones I have that went blunt 2/3 of the way through each job (I didn't expect to have to use them again).

Either way underground gambling never manages to come anywhere near to mainstream for harvesting large amounts of money. New figures (from new recording measures) are showing that despite the smoking laws gambling take hasn't fallen after all as claimed by gambling pedlars.

[F5 Dave]

The $$ does go back into the community...
I've been overseas 6+ times fully funded by grants/trusts from pokies.
:
Well, I'll sleep better at nights knowing that it wasn't wasted.

So that was All the money was it? or just a tiny fraction after several hands extracted their profit & running costs?

[Ocean1]

'If you are not prepared to lose it, dont stick it in!!'.... If you get lucky, good for you... if not... and it was ya last $20... then it was a stupid idea to put it in wasnt it :done:

Yeah. That's what my uncle told me when he caught me on Vivian St when I were a nipper.

[Big Dave]

'If you are not prepared to lose it, dont stick it in!!'.... If you get lucky, good for you... if not... and it was ya last $20... then it was a stupid idea to put it in wasnt it :done:

Always with the sex talk. ei ei ei

[LilSel]

Always with the sex talk. ei ei ei

LMAO.... sorry cant help it :shifty:

[LilSel]

Well, I'll sleep better at nights knowing that it wasn't wasted.

So that was All the money was it? or just a tiny fraction after several hands extracted their profit & running costs?

How am I supposed to know that??... sleep well knowing that NZ sportspersons are able to represent you & your country internationally with the $$ that comes from the grants/trusts...

[F5 Dave]

I've always found the use of the word "quaffing" to be rather pretentious. And its hard to be pretentious if you misuse it too.
I was 'quaffing' my can of V at the Tasti which is akin to a foodcourt. Merely poking fun at myself. Many years ago we all would have brought lunch to work every day. V is a silly drink when you think of it, but I like it. Just all part of the consumer lifestyle that we are so used to now.

[James Deuce]

NZ sportsmen don't represent anyone except themselves.

I'm not that happy with the thought that someone lost their house/kids/car/freedom to fund those trips either.

I have turned a lotteries grant down and had to give up a "dream" so to speak.

[LilSel]

NZ sportsmen don't represent anyone except themselves.




:oi-grr: Not all of them

[F5 Dave]

Lil I'm not trying to rag on you but people are being bought off with the "gives money back to the community" lark. Its only a small percentage and it would be far better that this money wasn't coming from the part of the community that needs it.

It would have been far more palatable that the government supported said sports groups with our tax and didn't let the gambling moguls take the extra money out in the first place.

[Storm]

It seems people are being rewarded for preying on the underclass.... This is NOT the kiwi way!

Sadly, I feel a slight correction is needed to this. This wasnt the kiwi way once.
Thats what progress, and free trade and the throwing off of oppresion has done for us

[LilSel]

Lil I'm not trying to rag on you but people are being bought off with the "gives money back to the community" lark. Its only a small percentage and it would be far better that this money wasn't coming from the part of the community that needs it.

It would have been far more palatable that the government supported said sports groups with our tax and didn't let the gambling moguls take the extra money out in the first place.

I agree... my point was that @ least some does go back even if it is only 1% of whats thrown away in machines.

The goobberment do use our tax $ for some dont they?? Rugby/cricket/netball/yachting etc?... They forget/ignore/dont care about the minorities as it is. :girlfight: (unless of couse you take a gold at the olympics etc... then *bingo* plenty of recognition & funding)

[LilSel]

opps... I went a bit :Offtopic:... my bad...
(have a good weekend everyone :))

[jrandom]

I've never gambled a cent in my life, and never intend to.

Gambling is effectively a tax on the innumerate, who unfortunately tend to occupy the lowest rungs of the socioeconomic ladder. It therefore redistributes wealth in the most unequitable manner possible.

Whilst, in an ideal world, I would like to take a perfectly minimalist position of letting everyone make their own choices, unfortunately human nature is such that a society that allows excessive freedom of choice will always be burdened with the sad detritus of foolish people who used that freedom to destroy their lives.

And I, for one, don't have the ability to dismiss such things. Civilisation should minimise, not facilitate, human misery.

You'll never eliminate gambling on sporting events, so it might as well be legal and regulated, but lotteries and automated gambling machines are good for nothing but exploitation of those who don't happen to be blessed with appropriately logical faculties of reason and self-control.

[F5 Dave]

Well written. Bling awarded if I can be bothered.

As I said it is not so much 'am I my brother's keeper' as 'look around at the effect this is having & decide if this whole gaming situation is worth it'.

[janno]

Well, I was very excited the first time I went to a casino, as I thought it would be glam and mysterious with Sean Connery as James Bond tucked away somewhere.

But it was revolting. Frantic looking people in shorts and jandals staring at the pokies while they gambled away what was probably their mortgage and grocery money. It had only just opened (1990 something I think) but already looked pretty seedy.

It's one thing that sticks out for me as definitely not like the movies. Nothing sexy or fun about it at all. In fact I don't think I saw one person smile the whole hour I was there.

I'm in the "ban them completely" camp. You could argue that some will move to internet gambling, but I'd hope more than a few would give up simply because the temptation wasn't there.

[Swoop]

Well, I was very excited the first time I went to a casino,
But it was revolting.
Do you know how often the carpet around the pokie machines is replaced?

It has something to do with the punters having a tube down their leg and not getting up and leaving the machine...

[ynot slow]

As an aisde,don't we gamble with our lives each time we are on the crappy NZ roading system,was in our local cafe/bar a couple of Sundays ago,about 6-8 people in there,2 of us walked out,me with $25.00 from $4.00,another guy with $60.00 from $10.00,rest were still in ther trying to get jackpot,which could go off anytime from $500-1000.

I spent a couple of hours that day enjoying a few beers and watching the warriors,my wife played for a while,I gave her a couple of rtd in the process,apart from they guy mentioned,my wife and myself nobody else was drinking,all they wanted was to play the pokies.

To get an idea of the pissy odds against the machine paying out see the totals next time a machine needs attention,you get a good overvue of the microscopic odds to win,i.e total cash taken maybe $25000,payout column could be $8-10000.

[Drum]

I'm not one for the pokies, but I've had a hell of a lot of fun in Casinos - blackjack, craps, roulette and two-up.

I compare the adrenalin rush to that achieved by riding.

[sAsLEX]

This shit is far too heavy for a Fri afternoon.

A more fitting discussion would be what gets you pissed quicker? Beer or wine?

I think mixing spirits, beer and wine is the best option......... but wait till the hangover!


But the point Hitcher raises about how it affects those that can least afford always worries me. You see the queues at the TAB are bigger on a Thursday and a week or two later the queues at the foodbank are larger again. Maybe the dole/dpb/handout should be food tokens etc rather than cash that can be easily spent on frivolous things, or a separate currency for those that dont earn it themselves which cant buy beer and tobacco?

[Big Dave]

I compare the adrenalin rush to that achieved by riding.

You need a better bike.

[rwh]

But the point Hitcher raises about how it affects those that can least afford always worries me. You see the queues at the TAB are bigger on a Thursday and a week or two later the queues at the foodbank are larger again. Maybe the dole/dpb/handout should be food tokens etc rather than cash that can be easily spent on frivolous things, or a separate currency for those that dont earn it themselves which cant buy beer and tobacco?

IMHO it'd be better to ban the gambling (inevitably, that'd be for everybody) than to say that the dole can't be spent on it. It avoids accusations of discrimination, for one thing.

Should that be extended to tobacco? Alcohol? Personally, I don't drink enough (or smoke at all) for this to worry me much - I see them in a similar way to Hitcher's comments on gambling. Neither is a particularly important part of life; they cause more problems than they're worth. Look at all the arguments over the Cold Kiwi's no-BYO rules - I don't give a stuff, except that the row could end up making the event less enjoyable for everybody (one of the reasons I'm unlikely to go).

But restricting what people can spend their dole money on is just too hard - it will sometimes stop people from making sensible purchasing decisions, and those who want to work around it will find a way.

I'd almost be tempted to beef up the Consumer Guarantees Act to make it much harder to sell anything that's crap, too - it's reducing the choices of the purchaser, sure, but a decent appliance can be onsold when it's no longer needed rather than filling up the landfills.

Bit of a rant, but rather than spending another half hour fixing it, I need to get on with something less frivolous than KB ... :)

Richard

[scumdog]

Went to a conference at Sky City in Auckland last week.

The demographic in the Casino was depressing. Especially at 8am.

I'd like to see Horse Racing, Dog Racing, Lotto, and any other form of corporatised gambling dealt to as well as Pokies.



I agree.
It seems those that can least afford it smoke, gamble and have the flashest things they 'want' by paying Neverending Debt Finance Co. for it.

[Ocean1]

I agree.
It seems those that can least afford it smoke, gamble and have the flashest things the 'want' by paying Neverending Debt Finance Co. for it.

Once upon a time there was a psychologist interested in discovering whether this core behaviour was learned or genetically in-built. He rounded up a bunch of 4 year old kids and took them aside one at a time, sat them at a table and placed a marshmallow on a plate before them.

He told them “I’m just going out of the room for 5 minutes, you can eat the marshmallow now but if you wait until I come back you can have a second one”. 5 minutes is forever for a 4 year old, only about 20% of them waited.

He kept track of these kids through their childhood and in their adolescence asked them what they hoped to be, what they wanted from life. Somewhere in their 30’s he started evaluating how successful they were, both in terms of their early aspirations and by the more normal socially accepted measurements.

There was an almost perfect correlation between the kids who had waited for the second marshmallow and the 20% most successful adults. This in spite of the diverse upbringing, education etc.

There was also, (as you’d suspect) a fairly high correlation between the success the parents had achieved and that of the kids. His report concluded that the experiment demonstrated that successful behaviour (the ability to plan well and work hard) was a strongly genetically conferred trait rather than a culturally learned behaviour.

Now, my question is… evolution don’t leave non-functional traits lying around for no reason. What’s the function of impulsive behaviour.

[Edbear]

Defending pokie machines on the basis that they provide a valuable source of income for communities, is a bit like defending tobacco products on the basis of the bountiful taxation revenues these contribute. Both arguments are facile.

New Zealand has allowed itself to be badgered into accepting pokie machines and casinos on the basis that these are signs of some sort of grown-up society. Bollocks. Pokie machines and casinos are designed to take money off people. That is their sole basis for existance. Both perform this in a manner designed to provide some sort of "excitement" for those being fleeced, in a manner not dissimilar from betting on sporting events or racehorses and dogs.

Gambling takes money away from members of our society who are least able to afford it. For many a big win is their only way out of their current circumstances. Unfortunately the actuarial odds of such an eventuality are stacked heavily against them.

What do we do about it? Start a movement to get them banned. If a couple of whingeing tree-huggers can make enough noise to stop flouride being added to drinking water, surely getting rid of publicly endorsed and regulated gambling shouldn't be too hard (Insert Tui poster here).



Unfortunately I can't bling you again, yet! But you're basically bang on the money, if you'll excuse the expression!

Though you're final comment did need the "Tui" bit, too! Money is the bottom line and the powers that be couldn't care less about the effects on the poor suckers they fleece!

One of the things that put me off smoking is the avarice of the manufacturers. They couldn't care less if you die a horrible, painful death, they just want your money and the more addictive they can make the product to keep you hooked the better! Why else is it that in third world countries where the regulations are less restrictive, they increase the level of Nicotine? Gambling is as addictive as smoking and these people know that very well!

[Str8 Jacket]

Dare I say it... I actually enjoy playing the polkies. BUT I will only play them once and a while and when I do I only take a $10 or $20 in with me and leave when its gone. Ive actually been really lucky and usually the win pays for a great night out. But if I lose it, its not really a biggie...

Its all about self control.

[tri boy]

Gambling been around for a long long time. So has the percentage of people who struggle with it.
Ban it? Why?
Ban lap dances, booze, smokes, cars, bikes, weapons, planes,.........
These can, and do have terrible ramifications on peoples lives, (well, maybe not the lapdance:shifty:).
It's sad that some people struggle with gambling, but (using Tony Soprano's approach), "whadda ya gunna do"?
Lifes for living.
PS, NZ hasn't got a decent Casino. I would struggle to smile in them also.

[RantyDave]

Gambling is effectively a tax on the innumerate
You know, I used to think that too, but then I had an epiphany: Gambling is a service industry. They provide excitement. People enjoy having a few bucks on the Melbourne Cup - there was genuine value delivered.

The Pokies, though, are a different beast entirely. And should be banned. As should prescription drug adverts on TV (only us and the USA have these).

Dave

[janno]

Now, my question is… evolution don’t leave non-functional traits lying around for no reason. What’s the function of impulsive behaviour.

Throw your rock at that mastodon NOW before it lumbers off over the horizon . . . debate about the wisdom of it later when you are masticating delicious trunk of mastodon . . .:sick:

[mbazza]

Gambling, smoking, drinking, eating. Are all of these fueled by the addictive section of our various personalities?
State controlled gambling, smoking and drinking controlled by revenue gathering does little to assist those of us aflicted.
Not that I am, of course! Must get a Lotto ticket for the 20th birthday draw this week.
The very first weekend of Lotto we had a big win. We got a son! Can't beat that. He's twenty now and can lift heavy things, very useful. Cheers. ;)

[Mutley]

...The very first weekend of Lotto we had a big win. We got a son! Can't beat that. He's twenty now and can lift heavy things, very useful. Cheers. ;)


Ditto, almost. Ours was a daughter, petite and pretty but big on noise and ideas. Love her to bits.

[jrandom]

You know, I used to think that too, but then I had an epiphany: Gambling is a service industry. They provide excitement.

Yes; I should have been more specific.

Gambling on sporting events, horse racing, rugby, whatever, even politics, is a lot more than simply rolling dice against set odds. If you know a lot about the competitors, you have a much better chance of winning. The motivation to get into the event in question is quite possibly worth a moderate sum of money for many people. Likewise with card games, etc, where the social aspect adds a whole dimension to the experience.

But pokies, lotteries, and the like? No human contact, no unknown variables, just machines grinding relentlessly through predetermined pseudo-random outputs while stupid people hand over their money.

[Drum]

You need a better bike.

You need to understand that we are all different and get our kicks in different ways. Just because you think something is not acceptable doesn't mean that is the case.

[pete376403]

I agree... my point was that @ least some does go back even if it is only 1% of whats thrown away in machines.


(1) The minimum amount of net proceeds that a licence holder
must distribute for authorised purposes is the proportion
equivalent to 37.12% of its GST exclusive gross proceeds for
each of its financial years.

http://www.dia.govt.nz/diawebsite.nsf/Files/Reg2004365/$file/Reg2004365.pdf

Refers specifically to non-casino (ie sky city, etc) operations such as pubs & clubs

[Hitcher]

It's time to start the Doomsday Clock ticking.

[avgas]

It's time to start the Doomsday Clock ticking.
Is it metric?

[Hitcher]

Is it metric?

Depends what one uses to measure it.

[F5 Dave]

ya know I was thinking about the horse racing this morning. Is only between 8-13% of gambling money spent. Seems strange the amount of media coverage the equine flu is receiving. Poor horses getting sick, but it isn't fatal.

Is pretty terrible for the industry, across Australia they may lose 500 million this weekend alone!

um, hold on. This means 500 million was saved from the Joe Average who unless they went out of their way to blow the money elsewhere would have retained it for things like paying the rent, feeding the family & children's education etc.

Sport of Kings? - Does make you think.

As I was washing my dirtbike (risky sport) I was thinking, I would like to record the Pokie machine owners advice to their children to play on national media.

Would it go along the lines of "Fools are easily parted from their money, it paid for your education & this nice house, but don't let me catch you being one of these fools" ??

[The Pastor]

Pokies? I think they should be banned, There all rigged anyway ;)

But I love texas holdem poker, I've never gambled any real money, but i play online and anyone who will want to play me. I wou'dnt mind entering in a small tournament $20-$50 etc, but havnt really seen one that I like - or know anything about them. (other than net/cellphone tourneys!)

So much fun.

as I'm at work i'll type some more words.

Should we "ban" all "gambling"? Don't we live in a "free" socity? (sp)

I don't think we actually can under our current democratic goverment.

personally, I dont like 100% democorcy. It takes forever to get somthing done.
I think a democatic dictator is what we need, somone who can make new laws up on the spot, make people do what ever he says when he says etc. However there would be an unchangeable constitution to limit his powers within reason. etc, he can't run around and go kill people, and there would still be elections, every year. Sure there are a few big negitives with that system but think of the money we would save not paying MP's!

I'll run for dictator - vote for me and i'll build a 4 (lane each way) motorway from whanagrei to wellington within a year.

[MSTRS]

Haven't read it all, but my take is that gambling of any type is aimed at the greed of people, the greediest (read as 'suckers') tend to be those that have the least, they believe that one big win and they'll be set for life. For the few that do get a big win, because of where they were in the financial stakes, they probably have poor skills in handing their finances, so will therefore not be able to handle the vast sum now at their disposal.
Think the old adage 'A fool and his money are soon parted'

[Ocean1]

Haven't read it all, but my take is that gambling of any type is aimed at the greed of people, the greediest (read as 'suckers') tend to be those that have the least, they believe that one big win and they'll be set for life. For the few that do get a big win, because of where they were in the financial stakes, they probably have poor skills in handing their finances, so will therefore not be able to handle the vast sum now at their disposal.
Think the old adage 'A fool and his money are soon parted'

Correct. I remember reading a report which followed the lives of several lottery winners. A decade down the track most of them had little to show for their win.

[tri boy]

This thread has started to spiral down upon itself, to the point where any form of gambling becomes wrong. (thats crazy).
Re the sick ponies: Yes, it may save a few dollars being spent by a small percentage of people that have a serious problem(except they will gamble on two flies if need be). However, spare a thought for the thousands of people who earn a living in said industry, float drivers, caterers, trainers, stewards, gate/ticket collectors etc. Should they all lose their jobs because a small group of gamblers can't control their funds, so somebody makes a decision to shut down all gambling?
Fuck that. who wants to live in such a soceity that mothers everybody, to protect a few.
If you wish to help problem gamblers, go ahead, join the relevant group that is genuinely trying. But don't drag joe citizen into yet another form of prohibition. Rant over.

[tri boy]

Correct. I remember reading a report which followed the lives of several lottery winners. A decade down the track most of them had little to show for their win.

What report?
I would wager:shutup: that most Lotto winners do indeed have a better financial position a few years down the track. And if not, what does it matter, they bought a ticket, won, enjoyed their winnings and kept breathing. Sounds like some people are just jealous of those that have had some luck.
Does that make them poor lost souls in the swamp that is evil gambling?

Let me add that I have no affiliations with any gambling institutions. i just beleive we have the right to have a bit of fun.

[F5 Dave]

Well I didn't dump entirely on the horse racing fraternity, I'm not suggesting that it can't be a good day out if you like that sort of thing (I'd rather babysit someone else's kids in a foodcolour frenzied birthday party ), that's the reason I said "It makes you think" No I don't think the thread has spiralled down upon itself.

500 million in one weekend a few spare dollars?

Lets not forget that this 'sport' has been grown on the money from gambling. If not then it would be considerably smaller and have to self support like ohh I dunno, motorcycle racing perhaps (yes I know they bet on it overseas).

And as far as a few people who have a problem it would be interesting to find out how much money is spent by those that can't afford it. There apparently is evidence (according to the papers) that apart from the great unwashed (that seemingly the general public don't care about until they realise that it could be them) there are often a lot of small businesses that go tits up after a casino opens in the area.

The strong willed and often successful it appears are also draw toward the thrill of risk. They've won at business & have some spare cash to go around, lets have a bit of this gambling lark. But if a problem occurs then the money gets sucked out, and peoples lives & jobs can be grossly affected.

Company embezzlement stories in the paper often pinpoint an employee with a gambling problem. Familiar quotes like 'I was glad to get caught to end it all' & 'I was going to pay it back'.

As I said before the whole 'Am I my brothers keeper?' is a huge question of civil liberties and rights. I kinda wanted to avoid that as it will miss the point:

I think our brother is being stalked and harvested.

[tri boy]

Fair enough Dave, now we could discuss the gambling industry for weeks, but what i would like to read is a suggestion that will allow people to enjoy the thrill/pleasure of it, either frequently or infrequently while the industry/or dept can help those at risk of throwing their lives away.
Nobody probably believes that the gambling agencies can or will care, and most Govt depts are useless at most things, and couldn't react quick enough. So whats the answer? Special gambling ID cards?
I think its one of those things that claims a percentage, while contributing something to others(fun, employment,excitement).

[SlashWylde]

So how do I, or possibly we, attack the current situation? I don’t think letters to the editor or local politician are going to make sod all difference.

Yes, you're right, letters to anyone won't make any difference. This is because the fundamental problem is that contemporary human beings are essentially greedy little consumers. They constantly want instant gratification in their boring little lives by incessantly buying trivial 'stuff' they don't actually need, or in the case of some, gambling the money away.

Generally speaking, the less intelligent a person is, the less able they are to manage their money wisely.

[scumdog]

Generally speaking, the less intelligent a person is, the less able they are to manage their money wisely.

Or even get ANY money at all.

[Skyryder]

"I went to gamblers anonymous - they gave me 5 to 1 on 'I wouldn't make it.'"

So what happened. Did you bet on yourself and make a killing??

Skyryder

[Finn]

Here we go again, pampering to the people of NZ who aren't responsible for their own lives. We think the only answer is Government intervention when in reality whenever the Government is in control of anything, they simply fuck it up. What's worse is you think they actually care about these people. Let me tell you, they don't. Your Government enjoys all the tax collected from Casino's and pokies so it ain't gonna stop. They've even introduced compulsory electronic devices into pokies so the Government can make sure they get every cent. Besides, I suspect most of them are benificiaries so Labours got their vote anyway.

Don't take away my freedom because these morons don't know when to stop.

As for all the manufacturers moving away from NZ, perhaps you need to really think why this is happening. No, really think.

[F5 Dave]

Spend a lot of time thinking about it being in the manufacturing game, don't patronise me turkey.

No of course I don't think the Government cares. Read the thread. No, really read it.

[Finn]

Spend a lot of time thinking about it being in the manufacturing game, don't patronise me turkey.

No of course I don't think the Government cares. Read the thread. No, really read it.

My post wasn't aimed at you, however I did read your thread. So when/if you lose your job because the owners of your company can't make it work in NZ because of: the high dollar, unbalanced employment law, lack of a skilled workforce, non-productive workforce, over taxing and high compliance cost, will you still be so concerned about beneficiaries spending your money on pokies?

How can we help? While a change of Government is a good start, there's a lot wrong with NZ that kiwi's don't seem to care about. My answer? Don't focus on the dead beats. Look after number one.

[Flatcap]

My answer? Don't focus on the dead beats. Look after number one.

This works up to a point, Finn, however what happens when the dead-beats run out of money? they steal my toys to fund their habit.

Perhaps some of the pokies money should be spent on more police to protect us from those too retarded to practice impulse control....

[Finn]

Perhaps some of the pokies money should be spent on more police to protect us from those too retarded to practice impulse control....

Isn't that what tax is for? Remember the Labour Government has been over taxing us for years generating huge surpluses.

[jrandom]

My answer? Don't focus on the dead beats. Look after number one.

If a perceptual filter could be constructed to remove cuntishness, half of your posts would make damn good sense, and the other half would be blank.

[Hitcher]

Remember the Labour Government has been over taxing us for years generating huge surpluses.

Please stop reminding me. And could everybody please stop voting for them!

[oldrider]

Gambling is an addiction which derives from a lack of self control of the individual affected.

Whether removing pokies will fix it, I don't think so.

I am addicted to sex, (which derives from a lack of self control of the individual affected)

Will removing the pokies fix that, or is it too late? :confused:

Mrs O/r thinks it's just too late! :no:

I think "more pokies" might help in my case! :first: I will have to mention that Doctor 007XX prescribed it :clap: John.

[Ocean1]

I am addicted to sex, (which derives from a lack of self control of the individual affected)

Will removing the pokies fix that, or is it too late? :confused:

Mrs O/r thinks it's just too late! :no:

I think "more pokies" might help in my case! :first: I will have to mention that Doctor 007XX prescribed it :clap: John.

Now there's a worthwhile obsession. Not a particularly good wager but veeeery entertaining.

[Finn]

If a perceptual filter could be constructed to remove cuntishness, half of your posts would make damn good sense, and the other half would be blank.

Sorry I'm not conforming to your leftish ideology.

The more social engineering I get shoved down my throat and the more this Government does to push NZ further into the dark ages, the more cuntishness I get.

The answer to me being "nice" is a lot more simple than cutting code.

[jrandom]

Sorry I'm not conforming to your leftish ideology.

Aside from my masturbation technique, I'm no lefty. I reject the canonical one-dimensional political spectrum.


The answer to me being "nice" is a lot more simple than cutting code.

I make no pretense to having the answers.

[Edit: Oh. A lot more simple. I posted rather too quickly. Righto, then, you supply the army of immigrants, I'll bring a crate of weapons, Helen can be first against the wall.]

[oldrider]

So there I am in a café quaffing my lunch with an extravagant soft drink & treat slice of fudge that I don’t really need reading the local rag (Hutt News).

They are on about the foodbank on one page & the next about pokie machines. Lower hutt recording one of the worst amounts spent on pokies, ~ $77 for every man women & child over a 3 month period. Obviously over a far smaller number of people this is a large problem raking money from those least able to afford it.

This is a form of escapism, in a similar vein to drinking, drug abuse and smoking. I could get myself in a better place ‘if I could only win Lotto’ mentality.

Shopping for entertainment absorbs people’s money. Do they really need those ‘things’? A further article is on the loss of jobs at Dux plant. Manufacturing is getting uneconomic in New Zealand.

Do we really need the cheap goods we so crave when waved in our face? Was throwing off the tariffs and protectionism of the 70s the right thing to do?

That is a hard question. One it is hard to reverse now the tiger is out of the cage.


Further thinking is at least how can I help? How can We help?

So I walked back to work waiting for an Epiphany. It didn’t come.

Can I help people with poor budgeting skills? Do we really need another ‘Money Man’ except one with no financial qualifications or experience only armed with an opinionated view of what people spend too much money on? Probably not.

It does grate me that people are being harvested for their hard earned money without fully appreciating the implications of their actions.

Which brings me back to the gambling thing I guess. I am angry at the politicians who let this sort of thing be introduced despite the problem gambling assoc screaming the troubles it would cause.

Then there are the claims that it brings in money for sporting charities etc. Oh bollocks! Only a small percentage of the take & these gains are vastly outstripped by the money extracted from the same community. Well actually the sporting clubs are probably a lot better heeled than the victims caught up in the gambling spiral.

So how do I, or possibly we, attack the current situation? I don’t think letters to the editor or local politician are going to make sod all difference.

If you really meant any of that, have you "really" ever studied any of the alternatives and given them your support?

For instance, this site (www.libertarianz.org.nz/) is the opposite to what we have now and says the same things you say!

If you always do what you always did, you will always get what you have always got!

Continuing to vote for what the "popular press" tells you to vote for, will just get you more of your original post! :argh: Cheers John.(back on target?)