NZ Police: Safety or $$$ (A little fuel to the fire)

[Macstar]

Some of my KB friends have been complaining recently of traffic infringements. Got me wondering if there was any truth to the claims about the NZ Police being over zealous on issuing fines. Check this out:

10 minute fact finding mission revealed the following from Statistics NZ & NZ Police (you can verify all data yourself if you like at the abovementioned organisation's official websites:

*In the last 12 months there have been 408 deaths on NZ roads, Police want to reduce this to 300.
*The instances of Police recorded speed camera offences (classified seperately to Traffic Offenses / infringements) have increased marginally from 363,578 in 1996/7 to 394,585 in 2005/6.
*The number of traffic offenses / infringements have increased from 513,563 to 1,064,489 in the same period.
*In 2004/5, (12 month period) a total of 1.6 million traffic infringements were issued (speed cameras and cop issued). If you consider that around 60% of Kiwis drive vehicles on the road (underage and old geezers), that means about 6-7 of every 10 NZ drivers received a traffic fine that year.
*I was not able to find specific then / now costings of actual traffic infrinegments, but we all know these have also increased.
*NZ Police do not differentiate the revenue from traffic infringements in their annual financial statements but if we multiple 1.6 million fines by $100 that’s 160 million $$$$, beef that average fine up to $150 and that equals 240 million $$$.
*The entire NZ Police force needs about 1 billion a year to operate.
*Depending on what figure you place on the average traffic infringement fine, up to one quarter of the necessary money needed to run the Police can be generated through traffic fines alone…

So to keep road deaths at 408 a year, the public i.e. you and I on top of road user chargers, petrol taxes and income taxes pay up to 250 million per year from our own pockets.

In comparison, cardiovascular disease kills 10,500 people per year in NZ and costs an estimated 500 mill annually, but apart from the GST paid on KFC and junk food there is no direct taxes or public health service charges for this problem. Oh, and a significant amount of the deaths are in people under 65….

:wacko:So, argue traffic infringements are necessary public safety measure and I’d tell you to do something about all the fat unhealthy people in our country – the real national killer and cost creator.

:wacko:Argue, traffic infringements are not viewed as a revenue collecting exercise, and I’d ask well why then does up to a quarter of the NZ Police’s total necessary operating budget come from traffic infringements?

:wacko:Argue that traffic infringements are issued at a reasonable rate i.e. not excessive, no quotas, and I’d ask you how could 1.6 million be issued to a population of just over 4 million of which maybe 60% drive vehicles…

Anyway, just my two cents.

[Gareth123]

The way I see things is thus...If I get pulled over in a 50 zone for doing 61 I deserve a ticket because I was speeding. If a bastard cop pulls me over for doing 56 in a 50 zone then yes he's a prick but i still deserve a ticket because i was speeding.

At the end of the day we ALL know what the speed limits are. If we get caught going too fast then we should grow a stiff upper lip and live with it. Who cares if it the cops are revenue gathering? To get a ticket you have to have been speeding in the first place.

What would happen if the police announced that they were going to scrap the 10km/h tolerance?

[jimbo600]

But mate, all the accidents are happening at 111kmh! Thats what the tv ads tell us.

Yep, its about the moolah alright. Same as UK and Aussie. Thats why HP hang around spots where ordinary pay easy Joe is going to get pinged and not at accident blackspots. But hey, at least quotas keep them off the back roads.

Shit if they were really interested in lowering the road toll they'd do something about the standard of driving, but that would be costly and not boost govt coffers

[Ewan Oozarmy]

Shit if they were really interested in lowering the road toll they'd do something about the standard of driving, but that would be costly and not boost govt coffers

Spot f*ckin' on!

[kiwifruit]

100km/h is crazy fast, i say reduce the open road limit to 80

[Mr Merde]

Bring back the man with the RED FLAG

[Kickaha]

100km/h is crazy fast, i say reduce the open road limit to 80

I can remember when it was 80kmh, be careful what you ask for

[Hitcher]

As I have said before, the credibility of the NZ Police has been sacrificed on the altar of revenue generation.

[peasea]

Bring back the man with the RED FLAG

Don't speak too loudly..........

We all know the score and the cops can deny it until they're blue (pun intended) in the face. Performance expectations, quotas, call it what you will but the government budgets on the income, it's a fact.

The whole thing is a game of cat and mouse and I don't envy the cops for having to reap this cash crop; after all, the public's respect for them has dwindled to an all-time low over recent years so very few decent people take up the job. Good cops are a minority group. Money grabbers, sex offenders, liars and bullies seem to be what makes up the front line these days.

[marty]

for some reason everyone thinks the cop on the street gives a toss about how much the $$$ value is worth on tickets they write. one of the guys who worked for me regularly (and still does) write 35-40 tickets a day, in a 7 hour patrol period, figure out how much time he averaged at each stop. on a section of 5 staff, each writing between 20 and 40 tickets each, i could never believe just how many people were either too stupid or too thick to either aviod being caught, or not offend in the first place.

all i (and my boss) cared about was contacts - how many vehicle stops in a day. $$$ never came into it.

in fact, i recommended that the editor of a major NZ auto magazine was let off a $5000 RUC fine, and this was supported by the bureau

[Boob Johnson]

They are 100% revenue collecting, this government has gotton FAR to greedy with the public purse. I recently got nailed for not wearing my seat belt. The cop listened to my excuse (a genuine one of I only just pulled out of the servo around the corner) which was true. I also said I always wear a seat belt (again which is true) but was elsewhere (mentally) when leaving the servo and he actually apologised to me saying that his boss had told him (who was standing not far away) that it's 100% ticket writing, no excuses & that he would of let me off had he not been there.


I know who ill be voting for next election

[NighthawkNZ]

They are 100% revenue collecting,

don't pay it... Argue you are your own soveriegn power...

argue freedom of choice... "you are the one that that gets injuired not them or any one else for not wearing a seat belt..."

either just follow the sheep heard...

[Katman]

but was elsewhere (mentally) when leaving the servo

Happen often when you're behind the wheel, does it?:msn-wink:

[Boob Johnson]

Happen often when you're behind the wheel, does it?:msn-wink:Na was just thinking (indepth) about what I was about to be doing.

[Macstar]

for some reason everyone thinks the cop on the street gives a toss about how much the $$$ value is worth on tickets they write. one of the guys who worked for me regularly (and still does) write 35-40 tickets a day, in a 7 hour patrol period, figure out how much time he averaged at each stop. on a section of 5 staff, each writing between 20 and 40 tickets each, i could never believe just how many people were either too stupid or too thick to either aviod being caught, or not offend in the first place.

all i (and my boss) cared about was contacts - how many vehicle stops in a day. $$$ never came into it.

in fact, i recommended that the editor of a major NZ auto magazine was let off a $5000 RUC fine, and this was supported by the bureau

No disrespect, I appreciate the front line staff are merely doing their jobs and may not care about the $$ (especially since it doesn't go directly to them, or the Police dept for that matter), but that's beside the point here. Do you think Kiwis are more criminally-inclined than other nationalities i.e. do we break more traffic laws than other people around the world?

Although my stats were crude (10 mins worth), they indicate that the majority of NZers are traffic criminals (6-7/10). Does that mean 6-7/10 Kiwis are also commiting real crimes i.e. burglary, rape, assult etc?

So, either the traffic laws are not practical, or NZers are abnormally unlawful in their vehicles...

In any case, the day 7/10ths of the population become law-breakers means something has gone really really wrong.

[kiwifruit]

I know who ill be voting for next election

http://www.maoriparty.com/
a wise choice

[Boob Johnson]

http://www.maoriparty.com/
a wise choicelol seriously doubt that. Not all Maori's vote for the Maori party so why would a lil ol white boy vote for them?

[Monsterbishi]

In comparison, cardiovascular disease kills 10,500 people per year in NZ and costs an estimated 500 mill annually, but apart from the GST paid on KFC and junk food there is no direct taxes or public health service charges for this problem.

Anyway, just my two cents.

Ever wondered how much it costs to the taxpayer per fatality on NZ roads? A statistic that you haven't posted actually.

(On average) $2 million - per person.

That's $816 million in the last 12 months.

Road deaths are, for the most part, a avoidable situation, I work in traffic management, so attend serious and fatal accidents on a regular basis. Not surprisingly enough, every single fatal/serious that I've ever attended has had at least one of these two contributing factors:

1. Excess Speed
2. Excess Alcohol

If you want to complain about how little funding cardiovascular disease research gets - think about the $800 million of taxpayers money that could be funneled into that if people simply just slowed down, and didn't drive drunk. That's the entire running cost of the NZ police, and three times more than what tickets generate.

Infringement notices don't even start to scratch the surface of what serious accidents and fatalities cost the New Zealand taxpayer.

People just don't realise how expensive things are behind the scenes, another example I'll provide, ever wondered why littering fines are so expensive? I had a course postponed today at work, so went out with one of my works network cleanup crews to tidy up the rubbish that had built up on a bridge, costs the taxpayer about $400/hour for three guys to do this, wonder how necessary it was? six hours and twenty rubbish bags chock full, and that was less than one third of one side of the bridge.

[karmakillernz]

People just don't realise how expensive things are behind the scenes, another example I'll provide, ever wondered why littering fines are so expensive? I had a course postponed today at work, so went out with one of my works network cleanup crews to tidy up the rubbish that had built up on a bridge, costs the taxpayer about $400/hour for three guys to do this
The real question is why are we paying $400/hour for street cleanup when there are thousands of unemployed people on the dole at this very moment? Hell, for $133 an hour I'll happily get myself a stick with a nail in it and hit the streets...

[Macstar]

2 mill eh? That's a huge amount. Let me raise another question then. Does anyone know what portion of road deaths are caused from inadequate roads, signage etc vs speed & alcohol?

[Hitcher]

Ever wondered how much it costs to the taxpayer per fatality on NZ roads? A statistic that you haven't posted actually.

(On average) $2 million - per person.

That $2 million isn't the cost to the taxpayer for a road death. It's an actuarial calculation based on the contribution an individual makes over the course of their life i.e. lifetime contribution foregone. The cost to the taxpayer for a fatal road accident is considerably less than $2 million, on average.

[scumdog]

2 mill eh? That's a huge amount. Let me raise another question then. Does anyone know what portion of road deaths are caused from inadequate roads, signage etc vs speed & alcohol?

Inadequate roads and signage?

Sounds like a cop-out for inferior driving ability. (in most cases):calm:

Goin by the tickets I give out it is not 7 out of 10 Kiwis getting tickets.

It's more 3 of 10 drongos are getting tickets week after week and up to three tickets at one hit.

The rest of us clued up sensible ones aren't getting jack-shit in the way of tickets.:2thumbsup

[Jantar]

Ever wondered how much it costs to the taxpayer per fatality on NZ roads? A statistic that you haven't posted actually.

(On average) $2 million - per person.

That's $816 million in the last 12 months.

Road deaths are, for the most part, a avoidable situation, I work in traffic management, so attend serious and fatal accidents on a regular basis. Not surprisingly enough, every single fatal/serious that I've ever attended has had at least one of these two contributing factors:

1. Excess Speed
2. Excess Alcohol

.
I just love reading junk statistics, and these claims are the junkiest I've seen today.

Hitcher has already pointed out the error in the $2M figure in that it is not a cost to the taxpayer, it isn't even a cost to society, it is a loss of potential income to the deceased person. Fatalities actually cost the taxpayer a much smaller sum than most injuries do.

As to the claim that excess speed contributes to motor vehicle accidents; that too has been disproved on many occassions. On MOT figures exceeding the speed limit is a contributing factor in 14% of all fatal accidents. Note the use of "contributing factor" rather than "cause". The insurance council list exceeding the speed limit as a "cause" in 5% of claims. They dont distinguish between fatal and non fatal accidents.

However the MOT also have an accident class called Speeding. This is defined as "too fast for the conditions". Speeding includes such aspects as driving while fatigued, driving while distracted etc. So if you crash while yawning, but under the speed limit, that is likely to be classed as speeding.

[Monsterbishi]

That $2 million isn't the cost to the taxpayer for a road death. It's an actuarial calculation based on the contribution an individual makes over the course of their life i.e. lifetime contribution foregone. The cost to the taxpayer for a fatal road accident is considerably less than $2 million, on average.

That's not what we've been informed, that's the cost of each event, factoring in the cost of all in attendance, the hardware in use, and the following investigations, compensation, etc. Lifetime contribution forgone isin't part of the numbers that we're given to work off. I'll raise it as a question at the next course I get put on though, that's not something I've seen on the graphs before.

Macstar - of the remainder of non alcohol/speed related accidents, signage issues haven't been a measurable problem, ask most roadworkers about signage, and the general concensus is that there is too much on New Zealand roads, to the point of galvanising people to the presence of signs, which then causes problems - ie dangerous driving/loss of control through worksites. Roading conditions are part of the problem, but there's usually other factors like fatigue that come into play, so is hard to measure.

karmakillernz - if you think you can provide a state highway cleanup service that includes suitable traffic management, refuse disposal and efficient service for less than $200/hour then good luck, you'll be in debt up to your eyeballs within the first week, and closed by the second.

[Mekk]

So if the cops are revenue gathering bastards out to pillage townships and go swimming in money a la Scrooge McDuck...may I ask what anyone's doing about it?

Everyone could exercise self-control and not break the speed limit as a giant counter-offensive! Let's hit those suckers where it counts! We don't want these greedy police scum running the country after all.

Ok seriously, is there any point to this thread other than to bitch? I mean, is anyone actually going to do anything?

[The Tazman]

But mate, all the accidents are happening at 111kmh! Thats what the tv ads tell us.

Yep, its about the moolah alright. Same as UK and Aussie. Thats why HP hang around spots where ordinary pay easy Joe is going to get pinged and not at accident blackspots. But hey, at least quotas keep them off the back roads.

Shit if they were really interested in lowering the road toll they'd do something about the standard of driving, but that would be costly and not boost govt coffers

Hear hear Jimbo

It's not the speeding it's how your f**king driving.

I'm sick of hearing about speeding. Top Gear proved that only 7% of ALL accidents are speeding ONLY related! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! and that's in a country where there’s 15 times as many people as here!!!

In the UK their speed limit is 120kph and that's what I've been trained (it’s a shame they don't do that here!!) to drive at and have done for the majority of my life so you can't tell me that 110kph is too fast.

Put a newbie, then me, then a racing driver in the same car, same piece of road at the same speed and then tell me that it's the SPEED that's the problem! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

They cut the speed limit from 100 to 80 on SH1 along the coast to Paraparam and what happened..........? more accidents so they had to put in barriers!!!!!!!! But of course it’s the speed!!!!!!

Oh and they do have quotas, I've had it confirmed.

If they spent as much time on real crime as they do on revenue gathering we'd have one of the best crime figures in the world.

Don't get me wrong I think in general the police have a bloody tough job and I have good friends and family in the force. But they seem to be making them robots now.

On Traffic cops (UK) on TV the other night an officer said "while they have the ability to use their own judgement it's a good job" or something to that effect. What a shame it's been taken away from our officers over here!!

:rant: over

Hope you all have a fanTAZtic weekend

[Ewan Oozarmy]

Hear hear Jimbo

It's not the speeding it's how your f**king driving.

I'm sick of hearing about speeding. Top Gear proved that only 7% of ALL accidents are speeding ONLY related! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! and that's in a country where there’s 15 times as many people as here!!!

In the UK their speed limit is 120kph and that's what I've been trained (it’s a shame they don't do that here!!) to drive at and have done for the majority of my life so you can't tell me that 110kph is too fast.

Put a newbie, then me, then a racing driver in the same car, same piece of road at the same speed and then tell me that it's the SPEED that's the problem! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

You are completey right, mate, but from the many threads I've read on this site, I don't think it's ever gonna sink in. The majority honestly believe that speed is the problem and not the completely awful standards of driving here.

[90s]

Agree with most arguments on here.
Safe driving and speed are not related. Majority of accidents occur in urban situations where safe driving and not speed are casual factors. We all know what constitutes 'dangerous driving', but proving it is difficult. Using one measure such as speed is simple, although does not actually work to increase safety outside of urban areas.

To reinforce this myopic legal-system enforced idiocy the minister was on Cambell the other day speaking about the decision not to enfore dangerous driving for the use of mobile phones in the car. The minister said that it was impossible to enforce, and not clear that mobiles were more than a contributory factor.

When pressed about the UK etc. that have proved that mobile use is dangerous (I was even involved in some of the studies in a small way via HUSAT in the 1990s) and changed the law to suit, he was evasive and vague. In fact he talked crap.

I wanted then to ask him whether it was worth identifying speed as something that is not a casual factor and changing the law on that.

And monsterbishi, I doubt that you can say you have seen many accidents which are caused soley by speed. The only class of accident that is regulary about speed is young hoons crashing by themselves (I have had a 15 yr old crash into my garden as an example). However, in these cases they were subject to many other dangerous driving factors and offences before speeding. On my corner where I live people can crash easily under the 50k limit - and as a previous post said speeding is not about the limit itself, but the conditions.

As in another thread I spent a few weeks on the peages in France in July and legally was doing 140kph all day. It was safe because drivers were trained. I regularly saw bikes cruising by at 180kph in no danger and causing no danger with no fear of being ticketed.
But as I have argued in yet another thread that is not possible here in NZ - not because of the roads but because of driver training and mentality.

I am totally in favour of reducing the road toll. Proper urban enforcement around school and balck spot areas I would favour.

But taxing us on the open road because it is simple? See the backlash that is generating on here? Extended rant over.

[pritch]

An interesting enough thread but while we all have lots of opinions on the subject not much is new. It may however be therapeutic :whistle:

So at the risk of repetition I offer the following:

Some years ago I asked a Police Inspector in charge of Traffic in Taranaki if he was familiar with the "Green wave". He had never heard of it.

This system is used in some European cities on major cross town arterial routes. The traffic lights are synchronised so that once you get a green light you should get green lights all the way if you keep travelling at the legal speed. There is no point in speeding, you'll just hit a red light. I thought this may have some application in this country but apparently we are not even aware of its existence.

BIKE magazine a year or two back sought information under the UK equivalent of our Official Information Act. Despite millions being spent in Britain on the Speed Kills campaign and constant repetition of the message that speed was the main cause of accidents, speed ranked as the seventh highest cause of accidents.

This after some manipulation of the statistics, and even allowing for the fact the the average Brit cop is not trained in accident analysis and coming upon a motorcycle accident will usually write up the cause as "motorcycle travelling at excessive speed."

[SimJen]

The amount of sub speed-limit "accidents waiting to happen" drivers is shocking.
As most of you guys will have witnessed while riding bikes, paying attention seems to be the largest problem!
Its far easier to blame something as easy as SPEED!
Most cage drivers think they are perfectly safe at or just under the speed limit, and they've been taught to think that from all the advertising that insists speeding will kill them.
Once they are at this speed they can then forget to pay attention, have a snack or coffee, talk on the cell/txt and possibly have a wank or blowy...... ;)
Seems ridiculous, but if you don't speed and haven't had a drink then the mass population thinks nothing else matters and they will reach their destination safely!

[MikeL]

have a snack or coffee, talk on the cell/txt and possibly have a wank or blowy...... ;)


Well, I've seen a couple of those behaviours regularly. As for the others, well I find it hard to believe.
I mean, what with the danger of spilling hot coffee all over yourself...

Anyway, having had one car written off by a txting idiot, what I really find hard to believe is that use of cellphones has been put into the too-hard basket. This really confirms the suspicion that real solutions and creative thinking are not part of the agenda.

[Rhino]

The amount of sub speed-limit "accidents waiting to happen" drivers is shocking.
As most of you guys will have witnessed while riding bikes, paying attention seems to be the largest problem!
Its far easier to blame something as easy as SPEED!
Most cage drivers think they are perfectly safe at or just under the speed limit, and they've been taught to think that from all the advertising that insists speeding will kill them.
Once they are at this speed they can then forget to pay attention, have a snack or coffee, talk on the cell/txt and possibly have a wank or blowy...... ;)
Seems ridiculous, but if you don't speed and haven't had a drink then the mass population thinks nothing else matters and they will reach their destination safely!
A very good obsevation. I travel Auckland - Tauranga and return quite often and the number of "brain in neutral" drivers I see travelling at around 85 kph thinking that they are "perfectly safe" is astounding.

They don't seem to realise that wandering all over the road like a lovesick cow is likely to get them (or some other innocent body) maimed/killed.:angry: I don't even want to start about the number of drivers that find it impossible to take a right hand bend without hvaing two wheels over the centre line :gob:

[jimbo600]

I tell ya another thing too. I cycle to work each day. Thats 30km each way. Yeah yeah I know how some folk feel about cyclists, but anyway its not the guy speeding at 120kmh that I need to worry about, its always the dumb arse fucker who can't drive for shit and isn't paying attention. The amount of times I've nearly been collected, or have witnessed a near miss from these twats is unbelievable.

[Brian d marge]

Search for the 80 / 20 rule , see what happened in Canada,

100 km//h is too fast in some situations and 50 k also , When I returned for a holiday ( you see things from a different point of view )

I found that 100 km/h was way to fast , but in some situations it was stupidly slow ( thinking of a long straight road in the N I )

Though there is a lot of road structures in NZ such as trees and telegraph poles , and hitting them hurts and the faster u go the more it hurts ( and costs)

So insert the 80 /20 , not going to explain it here , but set the speed limit to the conditions ...say 110 on that straight road , with a 10kph fudge factor

In the city, the big wide roads 50 km is bizzare .... on Some of the suburbian roads I drove on ,,, I would be virtually impossible to have an accident ( assuming one was paying attention !)

But passing a school bus Go wide and slow right down ! 30 km/h its only for a few Meters 1


No it comes right down to The Responsability of the road User. The average English speaking Serf , ( cause the same atitude is in other countrys ) Has big problems accepting this. ( watch, say a fast bikes video, and the Hardly cross the center line even when doing stunts , Now watch the average Kiwi ,,,,,,,:whistle:)

The average serf needs to change his/her attitude to driving, The government needs to come out of the dark ages with regard to traffic management .

Sorry, but one last thing ,,, But I have to also point the finger at Auto manufacturers

I like Hp and speed as much as the next person . But the speed limit ( Max speed one may travel at ) is 100km/h


So why are 150 Hp vehicles sold ? There are places where the speed limit isnt enforced . such as the Autoban ( but How many Autobans are there ? not a lot )

How many people Honestly went into the dealership and bought a bike based on top speed or Hp ( unless you had track days in mind as well)

There are other things such as Torque, sound and looks

and if one did need a mega bike, why isnt there a speed switch fitted ? flick the switch and the bike is limited to 60 km/h? So you can concentrate on the road not the speedo !

So to summarize ,, the Driver needs to pull his/her head in regarding their road skills, and the government could be a bit more proactive and come out of the dark ages regarding its roading policies ( hell we have ABS brakes now ,,,,)


Stephen


Ps the 80 /20 seemed to apply 80 % of the drivers I saw were fine ,,and driving well .......

[The Tazman]

Search for the 80 / 20 rule , see what happened in Canada,

On the subject of Canada. A few years ago the government that got in, got in because they recognised that people were getting pissed off with revenue gathering speed cameras and told everyone if they got in they'd get rid of them. Surprise surprise they got in and camera's went!!!!

Top Gear also disproved the so called Black spot theory in the uk with the four most dangerous roads in the uk totalling something like 200 miles and how many cameras were in this total mileage????? 4!!!! out of thousands in the country.

Also if they really wanted you to slow down why don't they put themselves in view rather than finding hiding places! ! ! ! ! !

[Ewan Oozarmy]

Top Gear also disproved the so called Black spot theory in the uk with the four most dangerous roads in the uk totalling something like 200 miles and how many cameras were in this total mileage????? 4!!!! out of thousands in the country.

Also if they really wanted you to slow down why don't they put themselves in view rather than finding hiding places! ! ! ! ! !

I used to like the "black spot" theory because it meant I could legally use a GPS device in my car/bike which warned me where all the cameras where....saved my license on many on occasion.

Also, the good thing about the cameras in England was you hardly ever saw a traffic cop.....

[marty]

here's a thought/comparison.

i have the potential to earn $109000 a year tax free. if i want to earn any more, i have to pay tax on the whole amount.

i'll take the $109k thanks. any other payments will be under the table, and done out of the glare of the tax dept........

and if i DO happen to do any cashies, i won't be coming on here to brag about it :)

[The Tazman]

I used to like the "black spot" theory because it meant I could legally use a GPS device in my car/bike which warned me where all the cameras where....saved my license on many on occasion.

Also, the good thing about the cameras in England was you hardly ever saw a traffic cop.....

Granted that was a good thing about them along with the more front facing ones for us bikers :D But still I think the uk has more cameras per mile of road than any other place in the world!! Make for a shitty drive.

I did also read that if everyone decided to contest their tickets and asked to go to court over it then the whole system would crash as they wouldn't be able to process it all!!!!! That could make for a rage against the machine!!!!

[Ewan Oozarmy]

But still I think the uk has more cameras per mile of road than any other place in the world!! Make for a shitty drive.

Definitely! There were some stretches of road where you be like 80mph....40....70...40....85...40.....with my GPS device screaming at me every couple of hundred metres.

At least they had the decency to paint the cameras bright yellow :)

[SPman]

I can remember when it was 80kmh, be careful what you ask for
Yeah, but we were all driving Morris Minors then and a fast bike could only do 120!... er 200k

[Cr1MiNaL]

yup, I'm presuming that the police have quotas to meet. But my mate got ticketed for doing 85 in an 80 comming in from a 100 zone... so that with all due respect to the authorities is not fair... I believe there is some allowance (100m) before they are allowed to zap you or something... I couldn't find it on the LTSA web site when I checked last.

[bomma]

hey isaac, nice stats mate and all the other posts here have a great point

firstly i am not angry or was angry at actually getting a ticket....i broke the law (having recently received a speeding ticket and probably one of the persons that macstar meant about some of his KB mates who have been complaining)

but i think that on any OPEN road where you have amazing visibility (of the road ahead) and the weather is permitting for faster speeds, the road should be similar to the Autobahn (as long as you do not put anybody else at risk through stupid overtaking or risky manouvers). And i say OPEN roads because the likelyhood of a kid running across the road or a dumass in a cage pulling out in front of you are very VERY slim on the OPEN roads while in city it is an ever-present threat.

i know what i said has many flaws as it would be hard to enforce as once again it would be upto the discretion of each person as to:
1) what is a "risky" manouver
2) how much visibility do you need
3) what conditions are "weather permitting for faster speeds"

but i think it is stupid to expect the average joe to sit on a completely empty road at a constant 100-110kph. It is ludacris that we get pinged on such roads where speeding would cause bugger-all problems for anybody.

Police discretion is also bs!! In a beauracratic organisation such as the Police Force, how is it that the same action can have various results?? For some (including myself), although this is beneficial i think it should come down to the circumstances surrounding each case. If i speed in the Auckland CBD or around a school and i get pinged then hell yea i deserve a ticket. If im doing 140 on a road that is drier than a desert, on a passing lane while passing cages and get pinged, whats the difference?? Its probably better that i go faster as ill get past the car and wont sit in its blindspot waiting to get hit.

Quotas arent all that matter but their conduct really shows their character.

[DougieNZ]

Hi All,

IMHO

You can quote all the stats or figures you like.
You can argue about whether or not there is a quota.
You can talk about whether cops should be doing other things.
You can blame the government.
You can blame cage drivers.
You may or may not agree with the tolerance.

You can say it's a tax..

I saw the top road cop on TV not so long ago. The question of the tax was put to him. he said something that I reckon is dead right:

If it is a tax, it is the easiest to evade in the country. Don't speed!!

I have paid quite a few tickets over the years. Do I blame the cops for any of them? NO!

The law is the law. We all know it. if we break it, then we pay the consequences. Isn't it that simple???

Its hard to demand discretion when some dickhead YouTubes it being given and a nationawide manhunt is on for the cop responsible!


:done:

[bomma]

think some people are missing the point of this thread.....

it is not simply to bitch and complain how we got speeding tickets....

we have just identified a problem, a problem which we have all endured. Obviously if 6-7/10 road users are getting speeding tickets then the bar is obviously set really really low!!

I agree with all those posts that say that it is not speed that is the problem but the driver. I mean theres 1000's of drivers out there who drive as though they got their licence from a cereal box!!! The number of times that morons going up mt eden road (opposite mt eden mcycles) cross the centre line and have their car half in the bus lane almost taking out cyclists and bikers is amazing...all because they want a shorter line or a steeper turning curve?!?!

Instead of concentrating just on speed management, why dont we introduce new testing methods. The fact that i can drive at 50kph, make a few lefts and rights and keep an eye out for signs while sitting my drivers test doesnt make me a good driver....

P.S. While on this topic, does anybody else feel that licence testing in nz is biased against young males??

[DougieNZ]

think some people are missing the point of this thread.....

it is not simply to bitch and complain how we got speeding tickets....



Hmmmm

A bit of this though

I am a "safe speeder" officer, you should ticket the unsafe ones!

I am a fantastic driver, what about all those other morons out there?

When I speed, it is perfectly safe - what about all those other people?

I should be able to travel at whatever speed I like - what about all those other offences that you should be working on.....?

Or the best: "I'm a motorcyclist, then only one who will be hurt is me....!"

Hmmm...

[jimbo600]

... I believe there is some allowance (100m) before they are allowed to zap you or something... I couldn't find it on the LTSA web site when I checked last.

Police GIs mate. Folk should ne be ticketed within 200m of a speed change when going from fast to slow, unless its by a school or roadworks. Used it myself.

[Macstar]

Hi All,

IMHO

You can quote all the stats or figures you like.
You can argue about whether or not there is a quota.
You can talk about whether cops should be doing other things.
You can blame the government.
You can blame cage drivers.
You may or may not agree with the tolerance.

You can say it's a tax..

I saw the top road cop on TV not so long ago. The question of the tax was put to him. he said something that I reckon is dead right:

If it is a tax, it is the easiest to evade in the country. Don't speed!!

I have paid quite a few tickets over the years. Do I blame the cops for any of them? NO!

The law is the law. We all know it. if we break it, then we pay the consequences. Isn't it that simple???

Its hard to demand discretion when some dickhead YouTubes it being given and a nationawide manhunt is on for the cop responsible!


:done:

Well argued, and at least 3/10 NZ drivers are able to keep to the law (unlike you and I by our own confessions of past tickets). Of course not all of the 1.6 mill annual infringements are for speeding...

As other KBs have rightly said, "it's all been said". But I'd like to make one other comment from some repeated Police behaviour I observed this afternoon i.e. (I've seen them do the same thing in the past).

I live near Balmoral Rd in Akl. It's a very long straight road with quite a steep hill at one end. Approx 500m beyond the base of the hill is a public park and pedestrian crossing (intersection of Balmoral and Dominion Rds). Often cops will stand hidden in the bus station some 100m beyond the base of the hill on Balmoral Rd. The hill is steep and unless you apply your brakes or stay in second gear, the average vehicle will naturally drift over 50kph. It's a gold mine for the boys in blue and they harvest this area. Unsuspecting motorists come down the hill get picked up on the laser doing whatever speed 55kph? 60kph? 65kph? and then get ushered into a nearby side street to be ticketed. This is after the cop J walks into the middle of a 4 lane road to signal the offending driver into the side street, a ticketable offense for Joe Public.

Now my bone of contention here is that IF the cops engaging in this particular spot were genuinely concerned about speeding motorists and the safety of pedestrians, they would relocate 300m further down the road outside the public park and pedestrian crossing, instead of focusing their lasers on traffic coming down the hill.

This my friends is the sort of behaviour I am talking about. Yes, the motorists caught speeding are breaking the law - for about 200m they may have let their motorvehicle exceed the 50kph level as a result of rolling down a steep hill - nothing intentional or sinister in the motorists actions... But what was their average speed for the length of the road? More than 55kph? What was their speed when they went past the park with children in it? - doesn't matter, cause the cops have found a spot with good returns, as longs as they hang out there, they'll be able to fill quotas.

Sorry, I may be sinister here - but MAN, I can't help it.

[Macstar]

The money to run the Police comes from the government and of course all money from tickets go to the government. However to say that "NZ Police’s total necessary operating budget come from traffic infringements" is rubbish. The government would have to pay the same amount of money to run the Police regardless of tickets.

Secondly, if you really are against the government getting your hard earned cash for their coffers there is an easy way to avoid them getting their hands on it. Slow down.

Just for the record: I didn't actually say the coppers get the cash, or that their total budget comes from it. Don't disagree with you that 1 bill is required to run the total dept, though by your own admission the govt does receive traffic infringement revenue. Therefore, the govt has to come up with less funding for the police thanks to the revenue from such fines.

And yeah, "slow down" - not arguing with you there either.

[scumdog]

An interesting enough thread but while we all have lots of opinions on the subject not much is new. It may however be therapeutic :whistle:

So at the risk of repetition I offer the following:

Some years ago I asked a Police Inspector in charge of Traffic in Taranaki if he was familiar with the "Green wave". He had never heard of it.

Hmm, not down here - tons have heard about it.
In Dunedin if you do about 52kmh max after hitting the first green light you will invariably get the rest of the lights green as you head through the one-way system north and south.

If the first light is red then so will the next one be BUT if you modify your speed to suit you can get to the second set of lights just in time to get a green and then on you're home and hosed.

It's a shame that at times the others on front of you/behind you frustrate your efforts to do this.

[scumdog]

Police GIs mate. Folk should ne be ticketed within 200m of a speed change when going from fast to slow, unless its by a school or roadworks. Used it myself.

True.

But not set in law so never count on it.

[jimbo600]

True.

But not set in law so never count on it.

True that, more of an advisory I hear.

I'm sure that there was another GI somewhere that said motorcyclists should always be encouraged to pull wheelies away from traffic lights. Might be wrong though.

[Toaster]

Police GIs mate. Folk should ne be ticketed within 200m of a speed change when going from fast to slow, unless its by a school or roadworks. Used it myself.

250 metres when I was in the job last year.

Passed the red camera van parked just inside the 70km/h zone in Waitoki (west of Orewa) aiming at catching us all coming in at 100km/h. :Police: Lucky I was doing 70!! Waitoki School is just around the corner.

[Toaster]

As I have said before, the credibility of the NZ Police has been sacrificed on the altar of revenue generation.

And the occassional inappropriate use of a baton some years back.

[Hitcher]

And the occassional inappropriate use of a baton some years back.

Pah! Boys will be boys...

[*caution*]

Hopefully someone can clarrify this...

I thought all the money from speed cameras and other fines goes to the government? Ie the more money the cops pull in does not actually mean the cops have more to play with unless the government decide to increase their budget.....??

Theres really no excuse for a ticket though, you break the law you get the ticket, if you don't like the law to bad.

But if the cops only have have so many men to deploy, put them where people are dying, not where its easy to catch speeders....

Also i remember an item on 60 minutes where experts said the original study conducted between auckland and hamilton that suposedly "proved" hidden speed cameras reduced peoples speed were actually "inconclusive", personally I think people are more likely to take a second look at their speed when they see a camera or patrol car rather than knowing there might be a hidden camera......

[Jantar]

;...I thought all the money from speed cameras and other fines goes to the government? Ie the more money the cops pull in does not actually mean the cops have more to play with unless the government decide to increase their budget......

You are correct, but there is a circular argument that goes like this.

The police are tasked with issuing speeding tickets as the speed is the Greatest Enforceable Risk. In order to measure the police compliance with this task, treasury budgets for a particular income from traffic fines. Police management look at Treasury's budget and say "to meet this target we need xxx officer hours on traffic duty. This will cost $yyyyy".

The actual income from fines is above Treasury forecast, so the following year the budget figure is increased, as is the police figure.....

So, the money from fines does not flow directly back to the police, but it is used in determining police funding.

[90s]

think some people are missing the point of this thread.....

Oh yes. But then again I might one of them?


Hmmmm

A bit of this though
I am a "safe speeder" officer, you should ticket the unsafe ones!
I am a fantastic driver, what about all those other morons out there?
When I speed, it is perfectly safe - what about all those other people?
I should be able to travel at whatever speed I like - what about all those other offences that you should be working on.....?
Or the best: "I'm a motorcyclist, then only one who will be hurt is me....!"
Hmmm...

Well, or is Dougie one? I know your post was tongue-in-cheek and very amusing, and sure obey the law; however most people on this thread are saying they pay up and say 'OK cop' when caught. What many are talking about is sensible changes the law to achieve the outcomes they are meant for. I see no problem with this - if people couldn't ask for changes in the law then women wouldn't have the vote, NZ would have the 80kph speed limit and it would still be legal to burn catholics in England.
When enough people see something the same way and are a voting group their voice might be heard, so lets keep talking I say.


P.S. While on this topic, does anybody else feel that licence testing in nz is biased against young males??

Of course! and we all know why.

Just be thankful you have about the easiest - and most pointless - driver's testing in the developed world.

[Ewan Oozarmy]

Just be thankful you have about the easiest - and most pointless - driver's testing in the developed world.

And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that this is the root reason there are so many useless drivers on the NZ roads......

....that and the fact foreigners (like me) can swap their international licenses for an NZ one with no trouble at all.

[DougieNZ]

Hi All,

With all the talk about stats - How do you measure the amount of people that get given a speeding or other ticket, take stock of their driving and DON'T get killed on the road...

There can be no doubt ion my opinion that speeding CAN increase you chance of an accident/incident.

Simple maths, it increases the distance travelled before a reaction to the problem takes place.

I saw an absolute idiot on a motorcycle today travelling about 5mtrs behind a truck and trailer on a motorway. What an absolute moron. now if he had have been seen by a cop and ticketed, then maybe he would modify his behaviour next time and not get killed when the truck has to slam on it's brakes for some reason. This would be a classic case where a ticket could save a life. There are many more.

I'm not a perfect driver/rider either. I have had quite a few tickets - almost all for what most would consider to be "minor" speeding. When I do get caught there is only one person to blame... ME!

[peasea]

Obviously if 6-7/10 road users are getting speeding tickets then the bar is obviously set really really low!!



Correct; and it's set really, really low for a reason; to cash in.

The figures are probably out there somewhere but (guessing) I'm willing to wager that most speeding tickets would be issued for speeds between 110 and 120. Right where everyone, and their vehicle, is in 'the goove' on a good slice of road.

Moving on..........

[scumdog]

Correct; and it's set really, really low for a reason; to cash in.


Moving on..........


Yeah, cos losers with low IQs are SO easy to catch, heh, heh, heh.

[98tls]

As a bike rider i would imagine i would ride faster than the speed limit quite often,but i dont bother doing it on main roads......jesus i get sick of hearing bitches about speeding tickets given to people on the countrys main thoroughfares,as has just been pointed out its like taking candy from children.Theres plenty of great roads to ride at whatever speed you chose with a minimal chance of ever seeing the law.Wouldnt have thought it that hard.

[peasea]

Yeah, cos losers with low IQs are SO easy to catch, heh, heh, heh.

Just as well for the coppers and the coffers huh?

[scumdog]

Just as well for the coppers and the coffers huh?

Oh, we DO get the 'professional' type too (apparently brighter than average?) - they tend to be the 'scone-doers' who feel above getting a ticket.

I like them, they provide entertainment.:D

[igor]

wank wank wank wank wank. Geez u fellas flog yaselfs on here.

be perfect like me and ya don't donate. Cause thats what it is, a drongos tax.:sleep:

[90s]

wank wank wank wank wank. Geez u fellas flog yaselfs on here.

be perfect like me and ya don't donate. Cause thats what it is, a drongos tax.:sleep:

AG100? I could go for the obvious ... nah.

[idb]

We all know the score and the cops can deny it until they're blue (pun intended) in the face. Performance expectations, quotas, call it what you will but the government budgets on the income, it's a fact.



for some reason everyone thinks the cop on the street gives a toss about how much the $$$ value is worth on tickets they write.......all i (and my boss) cared about was contacts - how many vehicle stops in a day. $$$ never came into it.

in fact, i recommended that the editor of a major NZ auto magazine was let off a $5000 RUC fine, and this was supported by the bureau


They are 100% revenue collecting, this government has gotton FAR to greedy with the public purse. .....

Aw...aw...aw....I don't know who to believe...!!!!!

[DougieNZ]

AG100? I could go for the obvious ... nah.

Come on... I'm sure he could just get to 61 in a 50km/h arera....

:buggerd:

[scumdog]

AG100? I could go for the obvious ... nah.

Igor is laughing his tits off at you lot - really!

[peasea]

Igor is laughing his tits off at you lot - really!


Igor has tits?
I wanna see 'em.

[scumdog]

Igor has tits?
I wanna see 'em.

I just told you - he laughed them off, he ain't got them any more.

[bomma]

What many are talking about is sensible changes the law to achieve the outcomes they are meant for. I see no problem with this - if people couldn't ask for changes in the law then women wouldn't have the vote, NZ would have the 80kph speed limit and it would still be legal to burn catholics in England.
When enough people see something the same way and are a voting group their voice might be heard, so lets keep talking I say.

well said!! in a world where confrontation and instigation has led to soo much change i fail to see why people are so opposed to it

we were givin a voice so that we could be heard!! just because i challenge the status quo does not make me a moaner and doesnt mean im just bitching coz i think i got hard-done-by

we live in a democratic country for a reason....if i wanted to be squashed id move to a communist country

[bomma]

and poor igor lost his tits....shudda worn a bra and strapped em in good :lol:

[terbang]

The gummint greefully rakes revenue off our roads under the guise of road safety, they use the safety argument because its hard to argue against when we all know its the last thing on their agenda. The police do the collecting and they, unfairly because they actually do give a fuck about safety, take the brunt of public opinion. If ya don't want to contribute, don't speed. Simple really. I am one of those that likes to whip things along from time to time and so I expect a couple of fines every year. They are in my budget but I don't blame the cops for a policy that they have also little control over.

[DougieNZ]

If ya don't want to contribute, don't speed. Simple really.

Yep, it's that simple. Take away the "the cops are picking on me" sentiment... and that's what you are left with.... :niceone:

[duckonin]

Every person applying for or renewing their licence should be made to attend a defensive driving course along with a practical run in a suitable vehicle, rated 1-10 if you do not exceed an 8 or better no licence, this should be mandatory for both.....
There are to many people that do not know the road rules and are a liability at whatever speed they drive at, most drive powerfull vehicles outside of their capabiltys hightened when they unlease the power on the open roads after having spent all year in a suburban environment..(loss of control) using the power to pass (yep I can do it) WHAMO another head on....
Caught using a cell, eating your lunch combing your hair at the lights or what ever, or doing anything else which would take your attention off the job of driving, instant bus ticket handed to u to use for the next six months, no good fineing most as they either do not or cannot pay any way, make people realize they will be stung hard...Those that can afford a fine think it is a joke to be fined a couple of hundy pay it then back into it, remove the problem that caused the problem there would be a lot of moaning pricks riding around on push bikes with ample time to think out what they will do when they get their vehicle back..

[bomma]

Every person applying for or renewing their licence should be made to attend a defensive driving course

i did a defensive driving course and seriously it was a COMPLETE wste of time!!! you learn nothing because all ou do is sit there and copy missing words into a book....it is basically pointless....


...along with a practical run in a suitable vehicle, rated 1-10 if you do not exceed an 8 or better no licence, this should be mandatory for both.....

but i like this idea though!!! in fact, i reckon there shud be mandatory testing every 2 years or something just to ensure that people on the road arent a danger to those around them and themselves!!:2thumbsup i wudnt mind being tested every second year if i knew that it was ACTUALLY helping to make the roads safer for me :banana:

[light]

but i like this idea though!!! in fact, i reckon there shud be mandatory testing every 2 years or something just to ensure that people on the road arent a danger to those around them and themselves!!:2thumbsup i wudnt mind being tested every second year if i knew that it was ACTUALLY helping to make the roads safer for me :banana:

I would mind, its at a cost that this would happen. A waste of money if you are a good driver.

The best idea I read in here is the "green wave" one. I have over in europe and i have questioned why this isnt in place in NZ quite a lot. Not only does it stop the frustration of driving in cities but it also allows traffic to flow more freely.

I got a ticket recently on the way down to rotorua from auckland, it was for doing 111km/h in a 100km/h area. Now as some have said "your over the speed limit" which is true. My arguement is this... Back roads behind Hamilton, long straight roads with few cars on it. I saw the lights of 2 cars ahead and slowed down as they got closer to me because thats just what I do as a safety thing on open roads with cars coming towards me. She turns and pulls me up. asks me why I slowed down when I seen her. My responce was i didn't slow for her I slowed for oncoming traffic as a safety precausion.
Now I think I may have been doing a little higher than 111 originally but like maybe 115, I slowed more and more as i got closer to them to the point I passed them at about 95ish. she gives me a ticket and tells me that if the roads were dry she wouldnt have pulled me up.
ok so there is a 10km/h grace where it takes into account that your speedo might be out slighty, I slowed down more as they came closer to me for safety reasons and I still get a ticket with a half ass responce like "cos of the weather" I mean honestly!

/rant over

[DougieNZ]

Now as some have said "your over the speed limit" which is true.

Now I think I may have been doing a little higher than 111 originally but like maybe 115,

/rant over

Hmmmmmm......

So I guess I'll put you in the:

"I'm SAFE when I speed - everyone else is UNSAFE when they speed"

or

"why are the cops picking on me?"

camp then.

You were over the limit. You got pinged. Where is the problem?

[swbarnett]

Secondly, if you really are against the government getting your hard earned cash for their coffers there is an easy way to avoid them getting their hands on it. Slow down.
This is like saying if you didn't want the Gestapo to shoot you you shouldn't have joined the resistance. Two words - Civil Disobedience. If enough people act against a misguided law there may be a chance it will be changed into something more sensible.

[DougieNZ]

Civil disobedience...

OK - You go first. Speed everywhere and don't stop for the cops if/when ytou get detected. Let me know how you get on - that's of you are still alive of course...

The gestapo comparison is perhaps a little thin my friend....

However, we are all entitled to an opinion....

[swbarnett]

Hi All,
With all the talk about stats - How do you measure the amount of people that get given a speeding or other ticket, take stock of their driving and DON'T get killed on the road...

I've had a few tickets and the only time I've ever changed my driving behaviour after being pulled over I was not given a ticket. Personally I don't believe the fine system is any type of deterrent at all.

[scumdog]

I've had a few tickets and the only time I've ever changed my driving behaviour after being pulled over I was not given a ticket. Personally I don't believe the fine system is any type of deterrent at all.

Neither do I.

[avgas]

How many tickets does it take to save a life?
Could all of you who have died while speeding or due to speeding related causes please speak up, we are trying to argue the situation!!!
Oh my :)

[Brian d marge]

Civil Disobedience. If enough people act against a misguided law there may be a chance it will be changed into something more sensible.

This is NZ we are talking about

Last time they got up set was over Rugby , and they failed to notice someone buying up NZ dollars

Which led to SIR Douglas having a go , which led to the mess its in today

Nope ...Keep going NZ ... doing well

:jerry:


Stephen

[DougieNZ]

How many tickets does it take to save a life?
Could all of you who have died while speeding or due to speeding related causes please speak up, we are trying to argue the situation!!!
Oh my :)

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

But surely you only mean the "unsafe" speeders?

Not the "safe" speeders - they will never have an accident.......

Hmmmmmm :wacko:

[swbarnett]

Civil disobedience...

OK - You go first. Speed everywhere and don't stop for the cops if/when ytou get detected. Let me know how you get on - that's of you are still alive of course...
Change usually starts with a lone voice. Over time a ground swell develops and you get to the point where like minded individuals start rebelling en mass. Eventually the voice of the people is heard by the Government and laws are changed. Idealistic I know. In NZ the lone voice is allowed to be shot down because of general apathy.

If you put a frog into boiling water it sill jump out. If you put a frog in cold water and slowly heat it to boiling the frog will die.


The gestapo comparison is perhaps a little thin my friend....

However, we are all entitled to an opinion....
I agree that the comparison is thin, but it is there. They knew the consequences of their actions but did it anyway. Doing a reasonable speed for the conditions that just happens to be above the speed limit is the same. I know it's illegal and don't complain if I get caught but I reserve the moral right to live my life as I see fit with no harm to anyone else.

[Grahameeboy]

I think Northumberland took out their Cameras and noticed a drop in the road toll................

We cannot blame the state of the roads. They aint that bad plus you drive to the conditions.

You would also be surprised at how low the average speed x injury / fatality's is....certainly less than the speed limit.

However, speed is the only tangible way to ticket people, unless they have an accident and of course stopping someone for speeding at 11k over speed limit may pick up a drunk driver, unlicenced, disqualified driver so in one respect there is a positive.

What the Govt should do is tell the Police to just give warnings for 6 months, instead of dishing out speeding tickets and see what effect this has on the road toll......my bet would be either no difference or lower but who knows.

Then you would have your evidence and answer.

Cannot remember where it happened now but a long while back in the Uk the cops stopped controlling traffic during peak times and traffic actually flowed significantly better.

Cops just doing their jobs...............when we often complain when they don't.

[geoffm]

I think Northumberland took out their Cameras and noticed a drop in the road toll................

We cannot blame the state of the roads. They aint that bad plus you drive to the conditions.



Mate, you have to get out more. NZ roads are crap, and getting worse. They are noticeably better in the South Island than the NI. I noticed the difference as soon as I go off the ferry after living for 2 years down south, with regular trips between Akl and Chc. They have also got noticeably worse over the years I have been riding bikes. Riding to the conditions means 10kph with a guy and a red flag in front, to warn you of the potholes, gravel, unsignposted slips, washouts, ripples, diesel, etc, etc.

[swbarnett]

However, speed is the only tangible way to ticket people,
So speed is penalised because it's easy to spot, not because it's actually a safety factor? What about black vehicles? A ticket for being invisible perhaps?


unless they have an accident and of course
This is the ONLY empirical way to tell if someone is truly dangerous. Anything else is subject to opinion.


stopping someone for speeding at 11k over speed limit may pick up a drunk driver, unlicenced, disqualified driver so in one respect there is a positive.
So does random stopping and I don't like that either.


What the Govt should do is tell the Police to just give warnings for 6 months, instead of dishing out speeding tickets and see what effect this has on the road toll......my bet would be either no difference or lower but who knows.

Then you would have your evidence and answer.
This would probably do a world of good for Police reputation and morale.


Cannot remember where it happened now but a long while back in the Uk the cops stopped controlling traffic during peak times and traffic actually flowed significantly better.
This make perfect sense.

I think Douglas Adams said it best:
While plummeting backward through time in the flag ship of the admiral of the space fleet -
Trillian: "Hey, that sounds better, have you managed to make some sense of the controls?"
Ford: "No, we just stopped fiddling with them."

[Max Preload]

I've had a few tickets and the only time I've ever changed my driving behaviour after being pulled over I was not given a ticket. Personally I don't believe the fine system is any type of deterrent at all.

Neither do I.

Quite frankly, I'm stunned at your apparent insight, SD. Are you feeling ok? <_< :Pokey:


This is the ONLY empirical way to tell if someone is truly dangerous. Anything else is subject to opinion.

However, speed is the only tangible way to ticket people, unless they have an accident

It's utterly ridiculous that someone driving safely (and without crashing) but over the posted arbitrary speed limit gets hammered with a fine exceeding that for say failing to give way etc. when there is actually a crash. :weird:

[scumdog]

Quite frankly, I'm stunned at your apparent insight, SD. Are you feeling ok? <_< :Pokey:. :weird:

I have no insight, I just see it as a loser tax.

[Grahameeboy]

Mate, you have to get out more. NZ roads are crap, and getting worse. They are noticeably better in the South Island than the NI. I noticed the difference as soon as I go off the ferry after living for 2 years down south, with regular trips between Akl and Chc. They have also got noticeably worse over the years I have been riding bikes. Riding to the conditions means 10kph with a guy and a red flag in front, to warn you of the potholes, gravel, unsignposted slips, washouts, ripples, diesel, etc, etc.

30,000 k's in 2 years is getting out there.

Agree roads are not like race track surfaces, however, they are not crap and anyway, being that most roads for us are rural what do you expect......

[Grahameeboy]

So speed is penalised because it's easy to spot, not because it's actually a safety factor? What about black vehicles? A ticket for being invisible perhaps?

If you cannot spot a black vehicle I would worry mate.

This is the ONLY empirical

Agreed to an extent.

So does random stopping and I don't like that either.

Why? If you have nothing to hide, nothing to worry about.

This would probably do a world of good for Police reputation and morale.

Agreed

This make perfect sense.

I think Douglas Adams said it best:
While plummeting backward through time in the flag ship of the admiral of the space fleet -
Trillian: "Hey, that sounds better, have you managed to make some sense of the controls?"
Ford: "No, we just stopped fiddling with them."................

[Grahameeboy]

Quite frankly, I'm stunned at your apparent insight, SD. Are you feeling ok? <_< :Pokey:




It's utterly ridiculous that someone driving safely (and without crashing) but over the posted arbitrary speed limit gets hammered with a fine exceeding that for say failing to give way etc. when there is actually a crash. :weird:

Yes and Yes............Yes agree in rural areas when there is no other traffic and agree with accidents, however, most accidents do not involve the Police attending so less chance of ticket plus I guess the Police know that careless driving can be questioned as the Police were not actually viewing the accident like they do speed.

I had an Insurance claim a while back. Guy reverses out of driveway into path of another vehicle. Just so happens this driver just looked down to turn radio on so I guess lost a few seconds reaction time......the Police prosecuted this driver for not paying attention and the guy who reversed out got nothing......it was a straight road so he clearly should have waited for vehicle on the road....where was the sense in that or

Guy lost control on bend. Ends up in someones front garden. Police did him for...wait for it....'Inconsiderate Parking'.....not word of a lie, it's true.

[Max Preload]

Yes and Yes............Yes agree in rural areas when there is no other traffic and agree with accidents, however, most accidents do not involve the Police attending so less chance of ticket plus I guess the Police know that careless driving can be questioned as the Police were not actually viewing the accident like they do speed.

Rural would be more dangerous than the Auckland motorway system which is divided it's entire length with median barriers as opposed to a thin dashed painted line.

It's not debatable that actions causing a crash were careless - otherwise the crash would not have occured. Police should always attend but I guess in so many cases they're busy issuing tickets to people who haven't been driving so badly that they've crashed. :weird:


I had an Insurance claim a while back. Guy reverses out of driveway into path of another vehicle. Just so happens this driver just looked down to turn radio on so I guess lost a few seconds reaction time......the Police prosecuted this driver for not paying attention and the guy who reversed out got nothing......it was a straight road so he clearly should have waited for vehicle on the road....where was the sense in that

No sense that I can spot. The driver already on the road had a reasonable expectation that someone wouldn't come careening out of their driveway, backwards, without looking and crashing into him.


Guy lost control on bend. Ends up in someones front garden. Police did him for...wait for it....'Inconsiderate Parking'.....not word of a lie, it's true.

I wonder what other options are open to the Police with regards to incidents like this. Surely undue care and attention or careless use would apply.

[Grahameeboy]

Rural would be more dangerous than the Auckland motorway system which is divided it's entire length with median barriers as opposed to a thin dashed painted line.

Surely speeding on a motorway with S.W.O.T. is more dangerous than a quiet rural road??:whistle:

.................

[swbarnett]

If you cannot spot a black vehicle I would
worry mate.
Under some conditions they can be pretty hard to see.


Why? If you have nothing to hide, nothing to worry about.
George Orwell. This attitude leads to a complete loss of freedom.

[Grahameeboy]

Under some conditions they can be pretty hard to see.

You mean at night without lights on......
George Orwell. This attitude leads to a complete loss of freedom.

Have never read him and have not lost my freedom.......it comes from within in my book........not on book shelves yet!!

.......................

[peasea]

This has been an interesting thread, generally speaking. It's good to see that even members of the police force on kb don't see the fines system as a deterrent; they'd be silly if they did. The last thing a money-hungry government wants is people obeying daft speed limits, there's no money in that.

I finally found the time to dig out an article that appeared in the Dominion Post on Friday August 13 2004 by one Oskar Alley. (There's even a pic of a copper hiding in some cabbage trees with his wee gun thingy...) Ok, it's three years old but not much has changed in that time and in the full-page article Alley quotes National MP Tony Ryall as saying "It can't be a co-incidence that in March the (justice) ministry needed money and was counting on an extra $3.5m in tickets, then magically, three months later, the police announce a 25% hike in the number of tickets....the ministry is pulling the police's strings so we know it's all about money, not road safety".

And that's not cop bashing, it's ministry bashing. I'm sure if you want to read the whole thing you'll find it in the Dom' Post's archives but the point is; it IS about the money but not on a police level, it's at a ministry level. I wonder how the average bobby feels about being used in such a way; I'd hate to be anyone's puppet.

SD is right in saying it's a loser tax and therefore, to avoid paying it all you have to do is crawl along at 108kph on the open road. We could, of course, lobby parliament full-on for an increase in the speed limit (in certain areas)but that would mean kiwis putting pen to paper and exercising some brain power. I doubt that will ever happen, they're too freakin' lazy.

In a way I pity the cops, they get to be tax collectors, not what they joined up for I'd wager. (Some maybe, but not all.) Then they're given 'performance expectations' and on it goes ad infinitum.........

Is that sunshine I see through my window?