Sit down, and shut up NZ

[kro]

There is a bill being put forward in NZ, that will make free speech against governmental policy, incredibly hard for anyone, for 1 year leading up to an election. I am not overly politically motivated on issues other than family ones, but this caught my eye.

If you don't read anything else political this year, read this article. It shows how incredibly stupid our government thinks we are, whilst trying to subvert the basic right to be able to veto that which your government proposes, by way of protest, or similar action. It also is a flimsy admission of wrong doing by a government now too proud to admit it fucks up royally.
http://www.nzcpr.com/weekly96.htm

[Taz]

But..... Is it still illegal to assasinate?:confused:

[Hitcher]

John Key has been railing against this Bill for the past week or so, but there is no sign yet of a public groundswell. Maybe us apathetic New Zealanders deserve to have our rights of free speech taken away from us. Use it or lose it?

[Ixion]

Ironic, that.

Perhaps Dear Leader should adopt the KB model and tell those who object that as they do not Fit In they should Fuck Off.

It's all about "providing leadership". If you agree to being leadered you must needs accept that you shut up and do as the leaders tell you. Here, or there.

[ManDownUnder]

Ironic, that.

Perhaps Dear Leader should adopt the KB model and tell those who object that as they do not Fit In they should Fuck Off.

It's all about "providing leadership". If you agree to being leadered you must needs accept that you shut up and do as the leaders tell you. Here, or there.

The funny thing about leaders is that it's impossible to lead anyone not willing to follow...

I for one haven't heard about this bill till just now... but will be making a bit of noise in my own peer to peer way..

[devnull]

Ixion - I think they already have...

700 / week leaving the country says it all I reckon.

"Guy Falkes was the only person to ever enter parliament with honest intentions"

[ManDownUnder]

But..... Is it still illegal to assasinate?:confused:

If it's an attempt to criticise policy it is about to be... (ok ok - yes... technically...)

[James Deuce]

That's "Fawkes".

You lot didn't care when your freedom of movement was removed and need for proof of wrongdoing prior to incarceration was removed.

You won't care about this either.

[Mr Merde]

If anyone here actually believes that they live in a democracy then I'm sorry to have to burst your bubble but we dont.

The only time you have any sort of say in how you are governed is at election time, and your opinion\worries are only valid as long as they need your vote.

After that its your job to sit quietly by and let your masters do as they wish as they do know whats best for you and if you dare to disagree they will bring in laws such as this one to make your disagreement illegal.

[yod]

If anyone here actually believes that they live in a democracy then I'm sorry to have to burst your bubble but we dont.

The only time you have any sort of say in how you are governed is at election time, and your opinion\worries are only valid as long as they need your vote.

After that its your job to sit quietly by and let your masters do as they wish as they do know whats best for you and if you dare to disagree they will bring in laws such as this one to make your disagreement illegal.

what do we live in?

[Usarka]

Why do you think that Labour have been attacking John Key so much recently?

The personal attacks are hurting labour, but not as much as this bill would if people started realising what it was about.

Helen isnt stupid. corrupt, underhanded and dishonest maybe, but not stupid.

[Winston001]

Good to see a thread on this outrageous bill. I can scarcely believe that a Labour government, champions of free speech and rights for the ordinary person, is trying to muzzle political debate.

This is all a kneejerk reaction to the stupid feeding frenzy over the Exclusive Brethern support of National at the last election.

I'm no apologist for the Brethern who appear to be an odd bunch, but so what? They are entitled to their political views. Just as are Ixion and many others of us here. If we chose to spend some money saying what we believed as private citizens, why can't we??

This bill is quite simply an attack on our freedom of speech.

[avgas]

We need a full blown revolution in the country, Its a pity the US aren't here trying to take us over.
We need a common enemy. The NZ public are to docile, everytime we 'attempt' to push something out we fail.
Anitsmacking bill,
Tougher sentencing.
We need riots on the streets, chaos needs to erupts, good people need to be killed - before any of us will act.
We have no Taliban, No cults.
Our idea of fighting for freedom is to look at titties on queen st.
Those that do put ideas out there that the Government is fucked are considered radicals.....yet everyone has the same thought in the back of their minds.
Would the country run better without a government in NZ, No - because we are allready zombies who need a master to slap us around.

[Coldrider]

Rome was not built by committee, but by killing and burning all those that opposed, or something like that...

[yod]

Good to see a thread on this outrageous bill. I can scarcely believe that a Labour government, champions of free speech and rights for the ordinary person, is trying to muzzle political debate.

This is all a kneejerk reaction to the stupid feeding frenzy over the Exclusive Brethern support of National at the last election.

I'm no apologist for the Brethern who appear to be an odd bunch, but so what? They are entitled to their political views. Just as are Ixion and many others of us here. If we chose to spend some money saying what we believed as private citizens, why can't we??

This bill is quite simply an attack on our freedom of speech.

i think the main issue with the brethren was that they were attempting to influence political function without being open and honest about it

it's bad enough that they can force mindless drivel to their children who just accept it since they know no better, i for one certainly dont want idiots like them pulling political strings in my country

[yod]

We need a full blown revolution in the country, Its a pity the US aren't here trying to take us over.
We need a common enemy. The NZ public are to docile, everytime we 'attempt' to push something out we fail.
Anitsmacking bill,
Tougher sentencing.
We need riots on the streets, chaos needs to erupts, good people need to be killed - before any of us will act.
We have no Taliban, No cults.
Our idea of fighting for freedom is to look at titties on queen st.
Those that do put ideas out there that the Government is fucked are considered radicals.....yet everyone has the same thought in the back of their minds.
Would the country run better without a government in NZ, No - because we are allready zombies who need a master to slap us around.

yeah, anarchy and war, thats the answer :weird:

[Sanx]

it's bad enough that they can force mindless drivel to their children who just accept it since they know no better

Why just label the Exclusive Brethren with that tag? It applies equally to Cahtolics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc etc etc.

[Skunk]

Thanks Kro. I've added my voice to the petition.

[yod]

Why just label the Exclusive Brethren with that tag? It applies equally to Cahtolics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc etc etc.

oh definitely....
it was simply that the brethren are the pertinent party in this situation; their covert funding of national's election advertisements, etc....

[Mr Merde]

what do we live in?

Dont know if there is an official title but to my mind we live in a type of

Benevolent Serfdom


We are owned by the government and their departments, they just let us think we have a choice

[avgas]

yeah, anarchy and war, thats the answer :weird:
Right now we are sitting bottom of the pot, why?
Last time there was a decent fight was when the country was claimed.
People find the all black spiritual, religeon is on all the 'expensive streets', land prices are sky rocketing, healthcare is decreasing, the police have become reverse-ATMs, you have to watch yourself around your kids.
Coke is cheaper than (fonterra) Milk
Takeaways are cheaper than (progressive) Vegies
That an im bored at work ha

[yod]

Right now we are sitting bottom of the pot, why?
Last time there was a decent fight was when the country was claimed.
People find the all black spiritual, religeon is on all the 'expensive streets', land prices are sky rocketing, healthcare is decreasing, the police have become reverse-ATMs, you have to watch yourself around your kids.
Coke is cheaper than (fonterra) Milk
Takeaways are cheaper than (progressive) Vegies
That an im bored at work ha

umm....have you got anything relevant to say though?

[yod]

Dont know if there is an official title but to my mind we live in a type of

Benevolent Serfdom


We are owned by the government and their departments, they just let us think we have a choice

really? cool.....always wanted to being a serf....but can i be ambivalent rather than benevolent? and maybe a little apathetic and lugubrious as well?

[Big Dave]

Does it mean a BRONZ protest ride would be illegal?

[Big Dave]

really? cool.....always wanted to being a serf....

Do you ride goofy or natural?

[Mr Merde]

really? cool.....always wanted to being a serf....but can i be ambivalent rather than benevolent? and maybe a little apathetic and lugubrious as well?


You can be anything you like as long as you ask the governments permission first and dont support in anyway those that oppose them.


BTW I have to thank you for a new word, for me. I love it and am already thinking of in which situation I can use it.

lugubrious

mournful, dismal, or gloomy, esp. in an affected, exaggerated, or unrelieved manner

[MSTRS]

Comrade Herr Heilen et al are just showing a little more of their true colours. There is a fine line separating the far ends of the political spectrum...if viewed as a circle

[Deano]

John Key has been railing against this Bill for the past week or so, but there is no sign yet of a public groundswell. Maybe us apathetic New Zealanders deserve to have our rights of free speech taken away from us. Use it or lose it?

Since when does the government listen to us anyway ?

E.g. The harsher sentencing referendum ?

The apathy has resulted from years of not being listened to. The Gov't of the day does what it wants. Labour have become too comfortable in their position to the point of arrogance - and Helen takes the cake.

[Hitcher]

it was simply that the brethren are the pertinent party in this situation; their covert funding of national's election advertisements, etc....

The Brethren didn't covertly fund National's election advertisements. They ran their own pro-National, anti-Labour campaign, but didn't correctly acknowledge who was behind it.

And citizens' initiated referendums are a crock. I recall posting on this matter at least once before.

[Deano]

And citizens' initiated referendums are a crock.

Only cause the govt didn't want to listen. No ?

[avgas]

umm....have you got anything relevant to say though?
No, its all irrelevent..... dont want to burst any bubbles or anything

[Mr Merde]

No, its all irrelevent..... dont want to burst any bubbles or anything

Bored arent you?

[avgas]

really? cool.....always wanted to being a serf.
Really?? i find the whole foot stool to life approach as exciting as paying taxes.

[avgas]

Bored arent you?
Give me a reason not to be.

[yod]

They ran their own pro-National, anti-Labour campaign, but didn't correctly acknowledge who was behind it.


which is covertly funding national election advertising isn't it.....

[Finn]

The new electoral spending proposals are anti-democratic.

When Justice Minister Mark Burton told Parliament that the government was “seeking to encourage full and open expression from a diverse range of interests in the run-up to a general election”, he must have known that he could hardly have been introducing a bill less likely to achieve that.
As drafted, the bill casts its net so widely that potentially something as innocuous as writing a personal letter saying “Don’t vote for so-and-so” would bring the writer under its auspices. It would be laughable if it were not so alarming.

If the bill is passed in this shoddy form, it would very likely result in hundreds and possibly thousands of New Zealanders inadvertently committing breaches of the law from January 1 next year. And it would be for no other reason than trying to do exactly what Burton, and most New Zealanders, would say is desirable, namely, having “full and open expression from a diverse range of interests in the run-up to a general election”.

The most grievous part of the proposals is the restrictions and impositions placed on “third parties”. Again, the government probably had in mind the Exclusive Brethren, but every group from Women’s Refuge to Federated Farmers would be affected. By the bill’s own definition, “election advertising” includes encouraging someone to vote or not to vote for one or more parties, and is also defined as “taking a position on a proposition with which one or more candidates, or one or more parties, is associated”.

So, other than political parties, no individual or group is allowed to spend more than $60,000, which is about the cost of one full-page ad in three metropolitan newspapers on a single day, in the entire calendar year up until the election, commenting on any subject on which any party has a policy. And the group will first have to register with the Electoral Commission. That is not fostering full and open expression. Rather, it gives the government a largely unfettered run in election year. It is an embarrassment that the bill in its present form has been put before Parliament.

But even that is not the end of it. If a group that is not an incorporated society happens to have even a single member who is not a registered voter – for example, because they might be only 17 – then that group is not allowed to become a registered third party and can spend no more than $5000 in election year.

And even those likely to spend less than $5000 are still caught in the net. As the Coalition for Open Government has pointed out, a student who writes in chalk on a footpath “Keep NZ GE Free” will have to sign a statutory declaration that their election expenses will not amount to more than $5000 and they will have to write alongside their slogan their full name and residential address. This restrictive and ridiculous bill will curb the vigorous and spontaneous debate that is desirable in a democracy in an election year.
The Electoral Finance Bill gives the strong impression that there has been a quantum shift in thinking about participation in public debate. Suddenly, it is as though any forms of communication to do with politics after January 1 – unless it is by the media, bloggers or the government itself (and possibly even some government communications will be caught) – are dangerous and need to be monitored and restricted. The proposition is absurd. There is no evidence to support it. It is not the public’s excess that needs curbing in this draconian proposal, it is the government’s.

Public submissions on this bill are now being sought. People should have their say. If they don’t, after January 1 they may find they cannot say much at all.

Basically, Labour are self imploding and since they have run out of ideas, the only thing they can attemp is an attack on John Key for being successful. The truth is that they are shit scared of him.. .and they should be giving the recent polls (even though the lefties are rigging them) This of course backfired and Labour are showing their true colours. A pack of nasty, digusting, corrupt, self serving theives.

Even our left wing media and former Labour "friends" have turned against them. It's just a pity we have to wait over 12 months to fire the bitch. She'll do a lot more damage to NZ in that time.

Over.

[Animal]

Since when does the government listen to us anyway ?

E.g. The harsher sentencing referendum ?

The apathy has resulted from years of not being listened to. The Gov't of the day does what it wants. Labour have become too comfortable in their position to the point of arrogance - and Helen takes the cake.

A conversation: "Are you ignorant, or just apathetic?" Reply: "I don't know, and I don't care."

[Crisis management]

I don't often agree with you on politics Finn, being a labour supporter, but have to admit to an increasing feeling of disallusionment with the party over the last year.
This bill is beyond belief and stamps all over our basic rights, so all of you, get to the public submissions and make a statement.


Failing that, break out the gear from the '81 protests and reform Patu....I'll be better prepared for the batoning this time!

[007XX]

Thanks Kro...Doing my bit on the petition right now, and forwarding this very interesting piece of info to everyone I know...

They weren't exactly advertising that one in the Herald though, were they?

and for what it's worth, I happen to agree (to an extent) with Avgas...we have become apathic and are being led like sheep.
What did it for me was the anti smacking bill, and the fact that we needed a group of lunatics (my opinion) to raise arms and put a stop to it...

If the Destiny's Church hadn't gone and reacted the way they did, what would have happened? Nothing, very likely!

Is this new bill going to be the same?

maybe it is time to show this government what the real ruling voice should be and finally act as the democracy we're supposed to be...


Otherwise: Communism anyone?:sick::mad2:

[ghost]

i think the main issue with the brethren was that they were attempting to influence political function without being open and honest about it

it's bad enough that they can force mindless drivel to their children who just accept it since they know no better, i for one certainly dont want idiots like them pulling political strings in my country

"Unions"

They do the same for the lefties too, ya just dont here about it as much.

Just goes to show there are idiological loonies on both sides of the political spectrum

[Hitcher]

which is covertly funding national election advertising isn't it...

No. Any individual or organisation should be free to publicly endorse and support electioneering by political parties with whom they agree or disagree. They just need to do this in an honest and transparent manner, which the Brethren didn't do. Surely this is a fundamental and necessary part of a democracy -- freedom of speech?

Trade unions have been mentioned in an earlier post. The role they traditionally play rousing up support for Labour and other "left wing" parties is no different to what the Brethren were doing.

However under the proposals contained in the new Bill, none of this activity would be allowed one year prior to a general election. Nor would private citizens such as ourselves be permitted to engage in such banter, including on this site.

If you haven't done so already, I strongly urge you all to read the draft Bill, draw your own conclusions and not to believe everything its supporters and detractors may be saying about it.

[yod]

No.

umm...Yes.


you said:

"The Brethren didn't covertly fund National's election advertisements. They ran their own pro-National, anti-Labour campaign, but didn't correctly acknowledge who was behind it."

...didn't correctly acknowledge who was behind it... = covert
They ran their own pro-National, anti-Labour campaign = National election advertising


I'm not sure what you think you're disagreeing with??

[Sanx]

I received one of the Exclusive Brethren leaflets before the last election. From memory, it wasn't pro-National or anti-Labour (particularly), it was anti-Green (and the more people that expose that tree-hugging bunch of krypto-communists, the better. What's more it did comply with all the relevant election requirements insofar as it had the authoriser's name and address printed on the back of the leaflet.

There is no requirement to attach the name of any group to such a publication and the Exclusive Brethren claimed (rightly or wrongly) that the Exclusive Brethren church itself wasn't behind the leaflet, it was just a group of business-men who happened to all be Exclusive Brethren. As far-fetched as this claim sounded, if you examine the logic it's perfectly valid. If I and my numerous cousins decided to pool our resources and issue a leaflet criticising a political party, the same logic used to condemn the Exclusive Brethren leaflet could be used on us. Suddenly this leaflet would be issued by a white supremicist group (as we're all white) or a pro-Jewish group (as we were all brought up Jewish).

The Labour election funding bill is about restricting free-speech. In the UK, the situation is worse; Private Eye magazine made a joke that carrying a copy of a newspaper with the headline "It's time for Labour to go" within a mile of Westminster can theoretically be classed as a criminal offence. Protests and similar such gatherings need to be authorised by the police, even if the protest is one guy standing on the street carrying a placard.

As much as I would like to think that the petition linked to earlier will do something, it won't. I signed it anyway, but I'll put money on it that this bill will sail straight through without the merest hiccup. Like in the UK, the majority of the population is either too apathetic to actually do anything about it, or too stupid to understand what the ramifications are. Or both.

You know, Australia's looking better each week.

[Hitcher]

I'm not sure what you think you're disagreeing with??
No question about your "covert" comment.

The Brethren campaigned in support of National's policies. The National Party also ran its own campaign that the Brethren weren't involved in. I'm not sure what you think you're disagreeing with.

[kro]

When you look at it objectively, democracy is a hinderance to what some countries consider "effective government". The idea of democracy is good, but the execution of it is frought with potholes large enough to fit Texas into.

I think the reason this caught my eye, is that I have known for some time, that the day would come where we were told how it was going to be, and to shut the hell up and accept it, and this looked like an in-road to this very style of government.

[avgas]

shut the hell up and accept it, and this looked like an in-road to this very style of government.
So when do i spray the bike matt black, take off the plate and setup a jammer on it? Do we have a time frame for these things?

[Mr Merde]

When you look at it objectively, democracy is a hinderance to what some countries consider "effective government". The idea of democracy is good, but the execution of it is frought with potholes large enough to fit Texas into.

.....

Democracy is good?

In the words of Thomas Jefferson

Democracy is 51% of the voting populace telling 49% what to do,

or something like that.

Even in ancient Athens, the so called birthplace of democracy, it was very selective. You had to be male, and born to a citizen of that city state. Once you ruled out the slave population about 80% of the population, then the women and those considered too young. Athens was ruled by a minority of about 5 % of the people who lived there.

Nothing has changed has it? We are still being ordered around by a very small minority of our population.

We are no longer called slaves as that is wrong and not PC, but very few of us a masters of our own existance.

Personally I am a slave to my employer. I rely on my monthly paycheck so much that it impacts upon the rest of my life.

The government tells me what to do, where I can do it, how often. Now with this bill they are trying to regulate what I can say or even think.

For this I have to pay them 38 % of my earnings plus 10% of the price of everything I purchase.

All that has happened over the centuries is a name change. Slavery has become Democracy.

Enough, I rant too easily.


Mr :shit:

[SPman]

We need a full blown revolution in the country, Its a pity the US aren't here trying to take us over.

In ways such as this, perhaps they already are..............

[SPman]

You know, Australia's looking better each week.

At least the State governments sometimes have the balls to tell Howard and his cronies to get fucked, but, otherwise, I wouldn't hold my breath expecting it to be any better.

...although...it all depends on your point of view.........

[Mr Merde]

From Wikipaedia.

Is this the government we have now?


Oligarchy (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) Ὀλιγαρχία, Oligarkhía) is a form of government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_of_government) where political power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_power) effectively rests with a small, elite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism) segment of society (whether distinguished by wealth, family or military powers). The word oligarchy is from the Greek words for "few" (ὀλίγον óligon) and "rule" (ἄρχω arkho


The iron law of oligarchy is a political theory, first developed by the German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) syndicalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syndicalism) sociologist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociology) Robert Michels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Michels) in his 1911 book, Political Parties (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_Parties_%28book%29). It states that all forms of organization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization), regardless of how democratic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic) or autocratic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocratic) they may be at the start, will eventually and inevitably develop into oligarchies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy). The reasons for this are the technical indispensability of leadership, the tendency of the leaders to organize themselves and to consolidate their interests; the gratitude of the led towards the leaders, and the general immobility and passivity of the masses.

[MSTRS]

Democracy .... :shit:

And now you, MrMerde, have taken away our precious illusions. At least while it's not election year, I can tell you/the world that your manifesto is crap

[Mr Merde]

.... I can tell you/the world that your manifesto is crap


Didnt know I had one. Glad to be corrected and am doubly glad that it is up to my rigorous standards

Thanks MSTRS

[Tortron]

first against the wall aye comrade

[avgas]

Shhhhh the red star are comming

[riffer]

Could someone please explain how Unions are exempt from this legislation, given the huge amount of Union-sponsored "You're better off under Labour" posters last election?

Other than that the law is not equally applied?

[Mr Merde]

Could someone please explain how Unions are exempt from this legislation, given the huge amount of Union-sponsored "You're better off under Labour" posters last election?

Other than that the law is not equally applied?


Given that the Labour Party traditionally emerged from the unions and their struggle for workers rights, and that the sponsors of this bill is The Labour Party, I would have thought that the reasoning is self evident.

They are as bent as a butchers hook and will do anything to keep in power.

[peasea]

They are as bent as a butchers hook and will do anything to keep in power.


Can't help but agree.

Democracy? Justice? Health?
All you need is money and you can have all three.

[SPman]

Given that the Labour Party traditionally emerged from the unions and their struggle for workers rights, and that the sponsors of this bill is The Labour Party, I would have thought that the reasoning is self evident.

They are as bent as a butchers hook and will do anything to keep in power.
So - whats new.

Give National 3 terms (god help us) and there would, nay, has been, no difference - just increasing gross arrogance from the elected representatives

It's just that all Western governments have been getting ideas lately from the USA, which is rapidly descending into the morass of a repressive dictatorship in fact, if not in name ..... keep the masses conned by prattling on about false "terrorists coming to get you", and you can slam them with anything......

Its one of the reasons I've gone bush.......

[jrandom]

I've skimmed the Bill (http://www.knowledge-basket.co.nz/gpprint/docs/bills/20071301.txt) in question. No time to read it properly right now, but I do find it somewhat disturbing. I don't like the idea behind it.

I'll read it in depth later, and probably write a submission.

To be frank, whilst the Exclusive Brethren are a creepy bunch of shitheads, I still think they should be able to print and distribute whatever they want, whenever they want, to whomever they want.

And so should I.

[Swoop]

I thought that after the vandalism on "the bitches" electoral office, (which received a charge of sedition:rofl:), free speech was well and truly buried.

[James Deuce]

I thought that after the vandalism on "the bitches" electoral office, (which received a charge of sedition:rofl:) free speech was well and truly buried.

That's a bit different. The dude that carried that act out and earned the sedition charge was a very clever Harry indeed and had been needling Labour for some time prior to the attack.

[Grahameeboy]

what do we live in?

A wonderful country........Politics is really the same where ever you are with some extreme exceptions, at least we live in a wonderful country with great biking roads.

[Grahameeboy]

I was thinking...always a worry I know.

Yes the Bill seems silly, however, I guess it only affects those who are devout followers of Politics and at the end of the day the vote is via the Polls rather than the show of hands of Political ranters.

So does this mean that the other party's cannot speak out as well.

Sounds like the bill is a load of old nonsense, just like politics but at same time probably not a lot to worry about at the end of the day.

I know I will get some "you are a nob" comments but remember 'freedom of speech':whistle:

[shafty]

Ironic, that.

Perhaps Dear Leader should adopt the KB model and tell those who object that as they do not Fit In they should Fuck Off.

It's all about "providing leadership". If you agree to being leadered you must needs accept that you shut up and do as the leaders tell you. Here, or there.

Mate, love it, thanks for the laugh, u r SO right!

[Daffyd]

party's

The word is "parties"

[Swoop]

...a very clever Harry indeed and had been needling Labour for some time prior to the attack.
Good on him/her! Politicians need to be kept on their toes at all times. The more pressure the better.

Yes the Bill seems silly, however, I guess it only affects those who are devout followers of Politics...
No. It only affects those who are governed by politics... i.e the voters.

[paturoa]

I can scarcely believe that a Labour government, champions of free speech and rights for the ordinary person, is trying to muzzle political debate.

Are there 2 Labour Parties?

[paturoa]

... i for one certainly dont want idiots like them pulling political strings in my country (sic excl bretheren)

Which bunch of idiots do you prefer? Sane comment (i.e. people who agree with me) seems to be very rare lately, and any that do get shot by the PC media brigade.

[kro]

So when do i spray the bike matt black, take off the plate and setup a jammer on it? Do we have a time frame for these things?

The sooner the better :P

[Grahameeboy]

Good on him/her! Politicians need to be kept on their toes at all times. The more pressure the better.

No. It only affects those who are governed by politics... i.e the voters.

In what REAL way though.....I mean we are only talking about freedom of speech before an election. There will be enough media coverage etc to help Voters make their minds up without having to do a 'speakers corner' stint.

I agree the Bill is daft but at same time I look at what real harm it is really doing to decide whether it is an issue.

Mind you I don't vote which is my 'Freedom'.

[peasea]

A wonderful country........Politics is really the same where ever you are with some extreme exceptions, at least we live in a wonderful country with great biking roads.

Well put, that man.

[Finn]

Give National 3 terms (god help us) and there would, nay, has been, no difference - just increasing gross arrogance from the elected representatives

So why did you leave NZ?

[MisterD]

To be frank, whilst the Exclusive Brethren are a creepy bunch of shitheads, I still think they should be able to print and distribute whatever they want, whenever they want, to whomever they want.


I think the biggest problem anyone outside of the Beehive had with the Brethren thing, is that a bunch of people who don't vote for religious reasons were still trying to influence the election's outcome...that hypocrisy aside, I completely agree with you.

[kro]

In what REAL way though.....I mean we are only talking about freedom of speech before an election. There will be enough media coverage etc to help Voters make their minds up without having to do a 'speakers corner' stint.

To me it's not only taking the right to free speech, the possibility exists for it to be the start of other losses of basic rights. I also think it's dangerous to entrust the portrayal of political events to the media, they don't have the best track record.

If you cast your mind back a month or two, the govt wanted the media out of the deabting chamber, because it portrayed the politicians in a bad light. Some of our politicians are people I would not let babysit my kids, or even loan money too, and I am getting increasingly agitated with our leaders apparent disinterest in addressing social issues head on.

[Grahameeboy]

To me it's not only taking the right to free speech, the possibility exists for it to be the start of other losses of basic rights. I also think it's dangerous to entrust the portrayal of political events to the media, they don't have the best track record.

If you cast your mind back a month or two, the govt wanted the media out of the deabting chamber, because it portrayed the politicians in a bad light. Some of our politicians are people I would not let babysit my kids, or even loan money too, and I am getting increasingly agitated with our leaders apparent disinterest in addressing social issues head on.

I think having media in the chambers is a good thing, but at same time, we all know that most politicians are bafoons anyway and in the UK they have media in chambers......Spitting Image was great but not sure you got it here.

But at the end of the day would you allow media in to your work??

We do tend to knee jerk. We are worried about our rights so why can't politicians do the same. I am 45 and have never worried about my basic rights being taken away......I mean we have the same thing on this site.

The only freedom we seem to want is the right to moan.......I would rather spend my time elsewhere.

This is why Politics does not interest me. Not that I don't care but nothing really changes whoever is in power and as far as Social issues go, this has been an issue for centuries.....

[Swoop]

In what REAL way though.....I mean we are only talking about freedom of speech before an election.

I agree the Bill is daft but at same time I look at what real harm it is really doing to decide whether it is an issue.
Having a fully transparent government AND how they get elected is vital.

Having completed the election process, then finding out that there was a lot more going on behind the scenes and the voters [except you of course;)] were duped and hoodwinked, would lay the way to revolution.
Unfortunately in NZ this would mean several people writing a strongly worded letter to the editor of the Herald.
Sensible countries and those with passion for their land, would storm the parliament and hang the politicians... Damn that would be a nice day in NZ!!!:clap:
Can we order an extra-strong rope for Parekura please???

[avgas]

How come not voting is considered not considered a political stance, where not working is?
Democracy my ass.
People have chosen in the past, have spoken in the past.
It all falls on Deaf ears.
Like what was said earlier, money can buy anything. Including silence

[oldrider]

Freedom in New Zealand has been getting whittled away bit by bit ever since I was a kid!

Motorcyclists are one of the last bastions of the spirit of freedom in NZ.

It's really a practical example of the "boiled frog" syndrome! :sleep: Wake up NZ! John :sick:

PS: There are alternatives on offer. Just look around!

[Bass]

I we all know that most politicians are bafoons anyway .....


.......red arse monkeys who walk on all fours ??

[Grahameeboy]

.......red arse monkeys who walk on all fours ??

Well they often get there arses spanked:spanking:

[James Deuce]

I was thinking...always a worry I know.

Yes the Bill seems silly, however, I guess it only affects those who are devout followers of Politics and at the end of the day the vote is via the Polls rather than the show of hands of Political ranters.

So does this mean that the other party's cannot speak out as well.

Sounds like the bill is a load of old nonsense, just like politics but at same time probably not a lot to worry about at the end of the day.

I know I will get some "you are a nob" comments but remember 'freedom of speech':whistle:

All it takes for Evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing.

[Grahameeboy]

All it takes for Evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing.

Smarty pants...........I could answer that with a 'Religious' view but not right place other than to say that Politics is not my path and that there are better men who are best to tread this path.

Hope you are well Sir.

[oldrider]

Are there 2 Labour Parties?

Absolutely, There is a "red" one with a (sort of) female leader!

Then there is a "blue" one with a male leader!

It's designed to give you pseudo choice and "them" guaranteed outcome!

Take your pick but the result will be the same either way! :argh::weird:

It's just like in the fifties, you could buy a "Matchless" or an "A.J.S" motorcycle, the difference was cosmetic.

It was just to sell more of the same under the import/export laws of the time!

Cage equivalent was "Hillman" and "Humber".

NZ political equivalent, "National" or "Labour", cosmetic difference, same result!

:argue: Debate it all you like, have an election, more of the same! :whistle: and so on and so on! :weep: John.

[riffer]

So when do we storm the Bastille John?

[Skyryder]

I have not read a great deal on this so am in the dark on the finer points. I am however reasonably informed on the Bill's intent. While most media attention for election advertising during the last election was centered on the Exclusive Bretherin. Nicky Hagar's The HOLLOW MEN highlighted the murky world of National Party financing. These involved people with links to the Centre For Independent Studies and the Buisness Roundtable. People whose interests are not those of New Zealand or its voters.

The Bill's intent is to reduce the fianancial clout that those with radical views, both left or right can influence Party or Government policy. Large sums of money are not donated to political parties without a policy tradeoff. And that trade off usually has very little to benefit the majority of New Zealanders.

One example of this is the reason for the eighteen year drinking age. Wine sales were encroaching on beer sales on a national level so the Breweries led by Lion Nathan lobbied National to have the legislation changed and mounted a sophisticated campaign to influence politicians for their conscience vote. The lowering of the drinking age simply meant that now there were more customers that equalled more beer sales that reversed the decline in company profits. There was no public mandate for this change but we the public have to put up and pay for the ongoing disorder that the lowering of the age has caused.

If society is not prepared pay for the democracy that it enjoys there are plenty of people who will pay but it will not be for the benifit of you or I.

Skyryder

[oldrider]

I have not read a great deal on this so am in the dark on the finer points. I am however reasonably informed on the Bill's intent. While most media attention for election advertising during the last election was centered on the Exclusive Bretherin. Nicky Hagar's The HOLLOW MEN highlighted the murky world of National Party financing. These involved people with links to the Centre For Independent Studies and the Buisness Roundtable. People whose interests are not those of New Zealand or its voters.

The Bill's intent is to reduce the fianancial clout that those with radical views, both left or right can influence Party or Government policy. Large sums of money are not donated to political parties without a policy tradeoff. And that trade off usually has very little to benefit the majority of New Zealanders.

One example of this is the reason for the eighteen year drinking age. Wine sales were encroaching on beer sales on a national level so the Breweries led by Lion Nathan lobbied National to have the legislation changed and mounted a sophisticated campaign to influence politicians for their conscience vote. The lowering of the drinking age simply meant that now there were more customers that equalled more beer sales that reversed the decline in company profits. There was no public mandate for this change but we the public have to put up and pay for the ongoing disorder that the lowering of the age has caused.

If society is not prepared pay for the democracy that it enjoys there are plenty of people who will pay but it will not be for the benifit of you or I.

Skyryder

Of course "Labour" is completely innocent of this! Yeah right! Tui moment here!

They are all as bad as each other. :sick: John.

[Skyryder]

Of course "Labour" is completely innocent of this! Yeah right! Tui moment here!

They are all as bad as each other. :sick: John.

Apart from Rogernomics and international obligations, Treaty Accords etc. I'm unaware of any Labour legislation that specifically benefits outside interests.

Skyryder

PS 'Southern' men don't drink Tui's. :headbang:

[oldrider]

Apart from Rogernomics and international obligations, Treaty Accords etc. I'm unaware of any Labour legislation that specifically benefits outside interests.

Skyryder

PS 'Southern' men don't drink Tui's. :headbang:

Unions don't count then! (compulsory unions!) :confused:

If the Labour government didn't keep them in legislative power they would hardly exist. :oi-grr:

Some unions will always be there because of who they represent not what they represent.

They are the Unions that have my respect, they do a good job. (IMHO) :niceone: John.

[Skyryder]

I’m a bit unsure of why you have raised the Union issue in this. The Council of Trade Unions have been in opposition along with right wing groups who also oppose the present draught of the Electoral Reform Bill changes.

The intent of the Bill is to close loopholes exploited by third parties. It was only by accident that the involvement of the Exclusive Brethren became public knowledge. If you remember correctly there was considerable denial that the Brethren were actively involved or had had talks with National Party officials. This was a deceit perpetrated on the New Zealand voters that in my short time in having and interest in NZ politics was unheard of. There have for some time been rumours of National Party fianacing from ‘outside’ sources. If this is true then it amounts to political interfering in New Zealand politics. Not unlawfull but it raises question on policy positions and the amount of third party funding in promoting these positions.
To give you some idea of the money involved in 2005 election the National Party received 1.7 million from secret trusts. When it comes to funding an election in a democracy there can be no excuse for secret funding from any source. It undermines the very heart of the democratic system.

The Electoral Reform Bill has nothing to do with reducing democracy but enhancing it.

Skyryder

[oldrider]

Hey there Skyryder.

You have been away and come back refreshed and recharged. (lol)

Did Helen pay for your holiday? :Pokey:

Many happy returns, I have missed you. :yes: Cheers John.

[Skyryder]

Hey there Skyryder.

You have been away and come back refreshed and recharged. (lol)

Did Helen pay for your holiday? :Pokey:

Many happy returns, I have missed you. :yes: Cheers John.

Yep the name Helen Clark is like holding a RED FLAG to bull. So I'll wave this instead:love:

Cheers

Skyyrder

[007XX]

Yep the name Helen Clark is like holding a RED FLAG to bull. So I'll wave this instead:love:

Cheers

Skyyrder

Awwww, you two are soooo cute! GET A ROOM...:eek5:

:laugh: :dodge:

[Hitcher]

Why would anybody want to hold a flag to a Red Bull?

[007XX]

Why would anybody want to hold a flag to a Red Bull?

I thought they were going all the way to Bulls to hold a red flag...I'm getting confused now:confused:

[Hitcher]

I got red-flagged in Bulls. 26 December 2005. Bust collarbone, helmet, jacket and ST1300.

[007XX]

I got red-flagged in Bulls. 26 December 2005. Bust collarbone, helmet, jacket and ST1300.

And Helen Clark was involved somehow...:blink::laugh:Sounds very painful all round!

[Hitcher]

And Helen Clark was involved somehow...:blink::laugh:Sounds very painful all round!

Helen Clark has been excessively taxing my arse since 1999. It's not my fault -- all you other fuckers keep voting for her.

[007XX]

Helen Clark has been excessively taxing my arse since 1999. It's not my fault -- all you other fuckers keep voting for her.

:laugh: :Pokey: That worked! :whistle:

Guillotine, anyone? :innocent:

[Finn]

Helen Clark has been excessively taxing my arse since 1999. It's not my fault -- all you other fuckers keep voting for her.

Have you banged your head or something? Perhaps is was the change from the Public to Commercial sector that did it? Still, nice to see. Just remember, voting for any other party other than National is a vote for Labour.

[MisterD]

Have you banged your head or something? Perhaps is was the change from the Public to Commercial sector that did it? Still, nice to see. Just remember, voting for any other party other than National is a vote for Labour.

Rod-ney! Rod-ney! Rod-ney!:lol::lol:

[MisterD]

If this is true then it amounts to political interfering in New Zealand politics.



Typical labour hypocrisy playing the "outside" interference card over this and Alexander Downer's visit...the constant stream of Blair cronies over from the UK are what exactly?




To give you some idea of the money involved in 2005 election the National Party received 1.7 million from secret trusts. When it comes to funding an election in a democracy there can be no excuse for secret funding from any source. It undermines the very heart of the democratic system.

The Electoral Reform Bill has nothing to do with reducing democracy but enhancing it.

Skyryder

So why not just mandate that donations over a certain $$ value to politcal parties have to be declared, rather than this catch-all regulate everyone who isn't the government?

We'll still get the usual uncontrolled labour party propaganda from government departments spending tax $$

[Hitcher]

Well, the Bloody Gummint is going to force this Bill through before Christmas, it seems.

And anybody who objects to it is just a toady in the pocket of big business that likes to be able to buy election results, apparently. What a load of crap! Talk about playing the man and not the ball. The actions of the truly desperate at work.

Australia is looking decidely more attractive by the day...

[Finn]

Well, the Bloody Gummint is going to force this Bill through before Christmas, it seems.

And anybody who objects to it is just a toady in the pocket of big business that likes to be able to buy election results, apparently. What a load of crap! Talk about playing the man and not the ball. The actions of the truly desperate at work.

Australia is looking decidely more attractive by the day...

Don't worry Hitch, we just need to get through one more year and we can rid ourselves of all the man haters...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10482795

[ElCoyote]

Well they often get there arses spanked:spanking:

Not often enough. Mallard throws a punch(es) and is promoted Nice one Comrade Helen, your true colour (Moscow Red) is showing. :argh:

[ElCoyote]

Since when does the government listen to us anyway ?

E.g. The harsher sentencing referendum ?

The apathy has resulted from years of not being listened to. The Gov't of the day does what it wants. Labour have become too comfortable in their position to the point of arrogance - and Helen takes the cake.

Let us not forget the Anti-smacking bill and the Homosexual reform bill. The majority of New Zealanders opposed both yet...............hello !! :eek: