Trail-braking in corners

[lanci]

Hi all,

Is trail-braking using your back brake very gently through a corner?

I have been using the back brake very very gently if I have gone into corners to hot and was wondering if this is trailbraking and if this is generally considered a safe practice? I know that it is not advisable to brake in corners but on occasions I have found it has to be done as more lean would = bin.

Thanks,

LT

[bert_is_evil]

I was told by my ex motorcross racing cousin that trailing your back brake into corners makes the bike turn sharper, meaning you can brake later/lighter. Not sure how this translates from mud to track/road.

[lanci]

Just did some research and can ascertain that what I am doing is not very good and is not trail-braking at all :oi-grr:

Will have to judge corners better and not push too hard on unknown roads.

Still would like more info and thoughts from you all though.

Cheers,

LT

[discotex]

I'm no racer and I'm no expert so take this with the grain of salt it deserves.

Are you sure you really have no more lean. I'm always surprised by my chicken strips when I feel I lean my bike over pretty hard at times. Clearly I'm not though.

If there's really truly no lean left then how can braking help the situation. Maybe up to the first 1/4 of the turn to scrub off a little speed but I can see it being a really bad habit to get into. Probably don't want to let off the gas or use either brake mid-corner if you've run out of lean angle as upsetting the weight balance at maximum cornering load is sure to drop you.

Almost everything I've read in books and on-line suggests trail braking is best saved for the track and if you're overcooking corners regularly you should be looking at your entry speed, turn-in point and how quickly you initiate the turn.

Have you read Twist of the Wrist and similar books? While not the last word on riding it's pretty interesting reading and probably applies to you.

[lanci]

Yeah when I first started I riding I would find that when turning 90 degrees from standstill I would always run ride. So my old boss who rode bikes told me to ride the rear brake, as it will tuck you into the corner. I am guessing that from standstill all that riding the back brake is doing is slowing you hence stopping one from firing wide, maybe???

[Coldrider]

Scrubbing your back brake on exit of a X-air ramp makes the jump lower & longer.

[bert_is_evil]

If you think you're at max lean angle move your weight to the side of the bike on inside of the corner before you start turning and you will need less lean angle to get around the corner. Make sure your moving your upper body too not just poking your bum out the side.

[The Stranger]

Just did some research and can ascertain that what I am doing is not very good and is not trail-braking at all :oi-grr:

Will have to judge corners better and not push too hard on unknown roads.

Still would like more info and thoughts from you all though.

Cheers,

LT

Try this, it needs a bit of practise, but is well worth it.
Get used to watching your vanishing point at all times. Take in the cars in front etc with your peripheral vision, but keep your focus on the vanishing point.

The vanishing point is the point where the kerbs meet or say the road disappears at a crest.
If you are watching your vanishing point you will see that the distance between you and the VP is almost always in a state of change. Use this change as your guide for speed. As the VP moves away from you, you are safe to open the throttle. As it moves closer to you and encroaches your safe distance (a distance which you are comfortable with) get on the brake.

[discotex]

Yeah when I first started I riding I would find that when turning 90 degrees from standstill I would always run ride. So my old boss who rode bikes told me to ride the rear brake, as it will tuck you into the corner. I am guessing that from standstill all that riding the back brake is doing is slowing you hence stopping one from firing wide, maybe???

You're right about it tucking the bike down. It is actually pulling the bike down into more lean. Of course if you're truely out of lean that's not much help either.

The front brake does the total opposite - it will stand the bike up. It's just a result of the physics involved while cornering.

Countersteering is a much better way to increase your lean angle than using your brakes in my opinion. Brakes are for braking not steering right..?

Even better, as bert_is_evil said, if your weight is inside the bike you will need less lean for the same cornering rate at a given speed.

[The Stranger]

Yeah when I first started I riding I would find that when turning 90 degrees from standstill I would always run ride. So my old boss who rode bikes told me to ride the rear brake, as it will tuck you into the corner. I am guessing that from standstill all that riding the back brake is doing is slowing you hence stopping one from firing wide, maybe???

Low speed turns - weight the hell out of your outside peg.
Perhaps try a RRRS (http://www.rrrs.org.nz) course.

[Mental Trousers]

Trail braking usually refers to using the front brakes until almost at the apex.
You climb on the brakes and once you've scrubbed enough speed instead of just releasing them (which causes the front suspension to fully rebound) you keep the front brakes on a little to keep the forks compressed. Keeping the forks compressed makes turning the bike easier and quicker. It also keeps weight on the front so you've got the grip to make the turn.
Once the bike is turned you ease off the brakes until you're at the point where you throttle on (all vehicles corner better if you settle them on the throttle). If you do it all smoothly and get the timiing right the forks won't fully rebound. Instead they'll stay partially compressed because once you start to throttle on centrifugal force compresses the forks a little.
So the wrong way is: fully compress forks (braking), fully decompress forks (off brakes), partially compress forks (on throttle)
Whereas the correct way is: fully compress forks (braking), partially compressed forks (trailing brakes), partially compressed forks (on throttle).
Please note that while that may technically be the best way it doesn't suit all riders. Some peoples style actually suits fully releasing the brakes. Do what suits you cos everybody is different.

[HDTboy]

Try this, it needs a bit of practise, but is well worth it.
Get used to watching your vanishing point at all times. Take in the cars in front etc with your peripheral vision, but keep your focus on the vanishing point.

The vanishing point is the point where the kerbs meet or say the road disappears at a crest.
If you are watching your vanishing point you will see that the distance between you and the VP is almost always in a state of change. Use this change as your guide for speed. As the VP moves away from you, you are safe to open the throttle. As it moves closer to you and encroaches your safe distance (a distance which you are comfortable with) get on the brake.
What he said

Perhaps try a RRRS (http://www.rrrs.org.nz) course.
Definitely. I should probably do one too

Trail braking usually refers to using the front brakes until almost at the apex.
You climb on the brakes and once you've scrubbed enough speed instead of just releasing them (which causes the front suspension to fully rebound) you keep the front brakes on a little to keep the forks compressed. Keeping the forks compressed makes turning the bike easier and quicker. It also keeps weight on the front so you've got the grip to make the turn.
Once the bike is turned you ease off the brakes until you're at the point where you throttle on (all rear drive vehicles corner better if you settle them on the throttle). If you do it all smoothly and get the timing right the forks won't fully rebound. Instead they'll stay partially compressed because once you start to throttle on centrifugal force compresses the forks a little.
So the wrong way is: fully compress forks (braking), fully decompress forks (off brakes), partially compress forks (on throttle)
Whereas the correct way is: fully compress forks (braking), partially compressed forks (trailing brakes), partially compressed forks (on throttle).
Please note that while that may technically be the best way it doesn't suit all riders. Some peoples style actually suits fully releasing the brakes. Do what suits you cos everybody is different.
The opening statement hit the nail on the head

Using the rear brake is a very personal thing. I am a big fan, and will use it in a number of different situations.
Trail braking is keeping some braking force on the front until the point where you're back on the gas again. Usually used on the racetrack, but can come in handy on quick road rides.

[beyond]

Trail braking usually refers to using the front brakes until almost at the apex.
You climb on the brakes and once you've scrubbed enough speed instead of just releasing them (which causes the front suspension to fully rebound) you keep the front brakes on a little to keep the forks compressed. Keeping the forks compressed makes turning the bike easier and quicker. It also keeps weight on the front so you've got the grip to make the turn.
Once the bike is turned you ease off the brakes until you're at the point where you throttle on (all vehicles corner better if you settle them on the throttle). If you do it all smoothly and get the timiing right the forks won't fully rebound. Instead they'll stay partially compressed because once you start to throttle on centrifugal force compresses the forks a little.
So the wrong way is: fully compress forks (braking), fully decompress forks (off brakes), partially compress forks (on throttle)
Whereas the correct way is: fully compress forks (braking), partially compressed forks (trailing brakes), partially compressed forks (on throttle).
Please note that while that may technically be the best way it doesn't suit all riders. Some peoples style actually suits fully releasing the brakes. Do what suits you cos everybody is different.


Absolutely correct :)
I rarely use my rear brake. On a big bike like the 14 it's next to useless under hard braking as there is little weight left at the back tyre and it tends to lock the rear and have you drifting around a corner with your arse hanging out which is not nice once it decides to regrip as one can imagine.

I do trail brake a lot as I love corners and moving through them at a reasonable pace but braking hard and releasing upsets the bikes grip through suspension changes.

I brake right up to the apex point but in ever decreasing amounts until I am off the brakes at the apex and the throttle is then opened more.

Rule of thumb is this:
When entering a corner you brake 100% while in a straightline but as soon as you start leaning you trade off grip for lean which means at 90% braking you have 10% grip and don't want to be leaning too much at this stage.
Once you are into the corner you start braking less and less so you slowly release braking pressure so at 70% braking you are 30% leaning, then 40% braking at 60% leaning. Stuff up these ratios and you lose grip and it's over.
At the apex you will be at 100% lean if you're silly but at this point you cannot be braking as you are using you 100 points all for grip.

Once out of the apex at 90% lean you are 10% throttle, the say 50% lean now 50% throttle, the 10% lean 90% throttle. Viloate these ratios for braking and throttle and your grip is gone, you have pushed the envlelope to far.

Getting this right takes practice but you don't want to be riding at 100% on the road anyway.

[Grahameeboy]

I trail brake sometimes.........if you find yourself going to fast in a bend, just stand bike up briefly, brake, and tuck back in............only if you really have to as it takes a lot of nerve.........there was a fast straight I loved in the UK with a sharpe right hander going downhill so as you can imagine we bombed the straight and if I went into fast, I would keep the bike upright into bend, head for kerb, take speed of and then bank it back over...............

[sugilite]

I like to approach corners at a speed where brakes are either barely needed, or most times not needed at all, then slowly accelerate through the corner. It's very smooth.
Sure, there are corners where you do need to brake quite hard (down hill recommended 35 kph corners n that) I feel for riders at your learning level (and the learning never stops) should concentrate on getting your braking done before you get to the corner, rather than attempting to learn the finer art of trail braking the life preservation way.
Track days are prob the best and safest place to learn such techniques.
In short, as you are finding trail braking is a necessity at the speeds you are going, try slowing down :cool:

[lanci]

Thanks for all the great responses guys.

During the days I have definitely been working on the vanishing point theory and I find that it is extremely effective (tried it in the car also and it seemed very weird having the large body around me). But at night I have think that with my poor headlight I have simply been going in too hot into unknown corners.

The items I will take from this discussion are;
-RRRS or similiar course is a must
-Entry speed needs to be in check
-Countersteer more in the corners (am currently doing 40% of the time but the other 60% is when I drop nuts and use the rear brake a tad)
-Go harder on known corners!

[nudemetalz]

I actually use the rear brake going around slow roundabouts to keep the Guzzi steady, because of it's torque reaction and low speed jerkiness. Makes it so much smoother and controlled.
Also use it a little in faster corners but the good engine braking means this is not hugely necessary.

[vifferman]

I actually use the rear brake going around slow roundabouts to keep the Guzzi steady, because of it's torque reaction and low speed jerkiness. Makes it so much smoother and controlled.
Good point! :niceone:
The rear brake used as a 'rudder' makes low-speed cornering (especially u-turns) much easier on most bikes.

One thing this whole discussion doesn't take account of is linked braking systems, like the DCBS on the VFR. I can use either brake in the corner, without it upsetting the balance too much at all.
On previous bikes, I used the back brake before the apex to settle the bike before applying the front brake while letting off the rear brake, then finally releasing both brakes before the apex. Sometimes I'd trailbrake in the corner with either brake: something that's worth practicing to get a feel for the effect it has on the bike's attitude and for scrubbing off a little speed. There may be times you have to brake in a corner whether it's 'naughty' or not. If you're not cornering at 100% of your available traction it's not a big deal.

[Hitcher]

I find that a touch of rear brake entering a corner sets the FJR to better allow a more aggressive line through the turn. Only a touch, mind, as it doesn't take much pressure to completely lock up the rear wheel.

[lanci]

Yeah I played with the whole braking gently in corners tonight and found that rear brake = tighten corner (pulls bike down) and front brake = pushes wide (stands bike up).

I don't like the idea of locking up my rear brake (not possible at the mo with 1mm of rear pad left) so as mentioned only very light application will/should be used if needed!

[beyond]

I should have mentioned in my earlier post that when trail braking with the front that yes, it will stand the bike up but that is compensated for by applying more counter steering to even up the effect.

With practice this becomes second nature.

[mbazza]

An interesting read, food for thought. Thanks. Cheers.:eek5:

[craigs288]

My pegs have a little metal lug that sticks straight down about 30-40 mm.

I checked it out at home by laying my bike over on it's side until the peg stub touched the ground and then got a friend to hold it there while I looked at the tyre contact patch on the ground. Had at least 10mm before the edge of the tyre, both front and rear.

I have never scraped the pegs while out riding, but if I ever did I would take that as a signal to stop leaning over because I am at the last 10mm of tyre.

[Mental Trousers]

That's what they're there for, to let you know when you're getting close to max lean.

[pritch]

Trail braking usually refers to using the front brakes until almost at the apex.


Yep!

I understand the racers use the front brake to load the front tyre as they turn in thus tightening the line. They know what they are doing though and they've got much better surfaces to work with...

Slowing during a corner will tighten your line through it. The Rossis of this world sometimes use the back brake to adjust their line while they are on the gas to a lesser or greater extent.

On the road, however, the general rule is that you should be using the gas or the brake, not both.

[imdying]

I checked it out at home by laying my bike over on it's side until the peg stub touched the ground and then got a friend to hold it there while I looked at the tyre contact patch on the ground. Had at least 10mm before the edge of the tyre, both front and rear.

I have never scraped the pegs while out riding, but if I ever did I would take that as a signal to stop leaning over because I am at the last 10mm of tyre.Be aware that things are vastly different when the suspension and tyres are loaded up.