Pakeha

[BuFfY]

My sister and I have been having a lot of discussions on this topic lately. She has just started her teaching degree and is doing a paper called 'diversity'. I have encountered this horrible word throughout my three years doing my degree.
Does anyone else find the term 'pakeha' offensive?
It annoys me deeply that all the literature I read refers to me as 'pakeha' and that I have to sit through lectures and be called 'pakeha'. Yes I really should make a stand to my classes, but if you saw the ethnicity spread, and then saw me you would understand! (The other day I was called 'petite')

The fact is, pakeha was first used to call the Europeans 'white pig' or some other variant. Yet if I went around calling them horries or niggers people would do a little more than raise their eyebrows.

Please don't tell me I am the only one! This is one of the few times my sexy red hair gets the better of me!

[Grahameeboy]

Nah don't bother me..............it is my choice whether to take offence....it is only a name.

[Hitcher]

Pakeha, despite allegations about its origins, is a name generally used to denote a non-Maori person. No offence is generally intended in its use, so none should be taken.

[Virago]

I'm also uncomfortable with its' use, particularly on official documents. I always cross it out and write "New Zealander".

[MSTRS]

Tis only a label. And we do like our labels, don't we? Like Coon, Nigger, Coconut, Darky.....
Yes, the word 'pakeha' is derogatory. That's fine. Problem is, us palefaces aren't allowed to use the labels we developed.
Racism at work....

[ManDownUnder]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakeha

Interesting reading.

[jrandom]

My sister and I have been having a lot of discussions...

The Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakeha) on 'pakeha' indicates that your ideas about the term being offensive are false.

The exact origins of the word Pākehā are unknown, although the most likely sources are the words pākehakeha or pakepakehā, which refer to mythical human-like creatures, with fair skin and hair, sometimes described as having come from the sea.

When Europeans first arrived they rowed to shore on longboats. British sailors faced backwards while rowing the boats to shore. In traditional Māori canoes or "waka", paddlers face the direction of travel. This led to the belief that the sailors had eyes in the backs of their heads, contributing to the mythical view.

You need to stop being so precious, and do a little research before passing your blinkered middle-class prejudices on to the young impressionables about to be entrusted to your care.

[Edit: MDU beat me to it.]

[jrandom]

Yes, the word 'pakeha' is derogatory.

No, it isn't.

[MadDuck]

Does anyone else find the term 'pakeha' offensive?


Nup..... been called a lot worse than that :lol:

[kiwifruit]

i don't mind, bro

[jrandom]

I'd like to expand on this discussion a little by presenting an opposing viewpoint.

Personally, I like not having to identify with my Teutonic and Yiddish ethnic roots. I feel no cultural affinity with continental Europe. I was born here in NZ. Having a unique word in the official language of the country, a language spoken nowhere else, which precisely describes my ethnicity, is fucking cool.

Pakeha and proud of it.

Ngati Honky, represent!

:yes:

[MSTRS]

Most Maori words are descriptive, and made up of smaller words to create a 'full description'
Pa - death, afterlife
Ke - foreign, different
Ha - taste
So one could not be faulted for believing that the word Pakeha refers to dead strangers that can be eaten....
This is where the derogatory nature comes in. White people are just a food source.

[skelstar]

While Im not exposed to the term at all I don't think I'd find it all that derogatory. Theres more important things to spend my time worrying about.

[Crisis management]

I really don't mind what word people use to address me, it's the way it's said that determines the affection or offense intended. It's easy to be over sensitive to "culture" but I just treat everyone the same and if they have a problem with that then they will have to sort out their problem. Thats not to say that I am insensitive to others but I won't accept somebody else's problem as my own.
I can understand your frustration with "that" paper, my kids have had similar reactions to the PC overdose inflicted in the name of cultural senstivity but you will need to get thru it and accept the pervasive nature of the subject in the world today.
You're a teacher? This will be an ongoing issue throughout your career so sort out an approach / methodology that works for you, talk to the senior teachers and get some advice.

Good luck Palangi!

[BuFfY]

Just because I have strong beliefs and values does not mean that I will push them on to my students. And I have never done so. The whole point of being an educator, and a good one, is to allow children to make up their own minds about the issues they face. What they believe should not be criticized. I am no where near a behaviourist teacher and I wouldn't even tell a child if I believed in God or not because children like to adapt their beliefs to suit those that they look up to.

[jrandom]

White people are just a food source.

Have you read Michael King's The Penguin History of New Zealand?

[MSTRS]

Have you read Michael King's The Penguin History of New Zealand?

In a word...No. Should I?

[Ocean1]

Personally I don't find it offensive in the normal context it's used.

Buy: :blip: As a matter of interest how many other nations have a word ensconced in legislation which means "foreigners" (as opposed to a name refering to a specific cultural group). And how many have public service policies which require women to sit at the back of certain specifically required events, even those responsible for managing them?

[jrandom]

Just because I have strong beliefs and values does not mean that I will push them on to my students.

Mmm, good. I shouldn't have implied that you might do so.


What they believe should not be criticized.

Still, beliefs demand examination.

I, for instance, may believe that the moon is made of cheese and that people with a high melanin content in their skins are intellectually inferior, but it could be reliably inferred from the fact of me believing those things that I am an idiot.

[Big Dave]

I would've been snarly if applicable - now I wouldn't.

But after hearing Maori explanations as to how Milford Sound was created and how Mt Manganui got where it is - I wouldn't be suprised if it means 'Those chaps that play Rugby'.

[ManDownUnder]

Ngati Honky, represent!

:yes:

Yeah I'm from The 'naki... Ngati Whitefulla

[MSTRS]

Thing that I object to is having to be described ethnically. Aren't we all just New Zealanders of equal standing?

[Big Dave]

Still, beliefs demand examination.

I, for instance, may believe that the moon is made of cheese and that people with a high melanin content in their skins are intellectually inferior, but it could be reliably inferred from the fact of me believing those things that I am an idiot.


I believe I'll have another drink.

[BuFfY]

Mmm, good. I shouldn't have implied that you might do so.


Still, beliefs demand examination.

I, for instance, may believe that the moon is made of cheese and that people with a high melanin content in their skins are intellectually inferior, but it could be reliably inferred from the fact of me believing those things that I am an idiot.

No, you shouldn't have

Yes, beliefs should be examined, or critiqued, not criticized

[Grub]

I don't like being called a pakeha. In context, it used to be used by Maori in a derogatory way.

[jrandom]

In a word...No. Should I?

Yup. It's illuminating.


Thing that I object to is having to be described ethnically. Aren't we all just New Zealanders of equal standing?

The Pakeha and Maori subcultures are comprised of people who look different and think differently about many things. It's silly to pretend otherwise. Homogeneity is boring.

[jrandom]

Yes, beliefs should be examined, or critiqued, not criticized

This is where we differ. I am always ready to tell the Emperor that he has no clothes.

[Karma]

I don't find it derogatory I suppose, but I won't let it be used to describe me. Same as I wouldn't be decribed as European back in the UK.

Ask me what I am and I'll proudly tell you I'm English, nothing else comes close.

[jrandom]

I believe I'll have another drink.

Ngati Ocker...

[BuFfY]

This is where we differ. I am always ready to tell the Emperor that he has no clothes.

But to criticize is to imply the negatives, yet to critique you look at it from all angles but still state the facts.
I guess some of us just prefer to look at some things from a postive angle, rather than always from above

[jrandom]

I guess some of us just prefer to look at some things from a postive angle...

It's impossible to look at idiocy from a positive angle without disingenuousness or hypocrisy.

[janno]

I don't find it offensive.

If I were Maori, then I'd call myself Maori. If I were a Yorkshireman or Geordie, I'd call myself a Yorkshireman or Geordie - as a subset of English people. Maori or Pakeha to me are subsets of New Zealanders.

So I call myself pakeha.

Took me a while in Aus to stop looking for the "pakeha/european origin" box to tick on forms . . .

[ManDownUnder]

This is where we differ. I am always ready to tell the Emperor that he has no clothes.

"Luff you long time" doesn't count chap...

[kevfromcoro]

Dont find it offense at all;
What about Ehore?
Sounds terrible..but in fact its not.

[ManDownUnder]

But to criticize is to imply the negatives, yet to critique you look at it from all angles but still state the facts.
I guess some of us just prefer to look at some things from a postive angle, rather than always from above

No - to critique is criticise - both are done by a critic, who is in turn critical.

Same roo word all the way. Semantics are being applied (in the form of the Dept of Education I suspect). They're all actually neutral terms and the technicque can be used in a positive, negative emotional or objective manner to suit the motives of the critic.

[Dilligaf]

I dislike the word too, just as I despised being called "farang" in Thailand. (Farang = foreigner). Mainly because of its overuse.
I also think because growing up in Aus, you were Australian. That's it unless you yourself went further and identified as an ATSI. And therein I think lies the difference. You are asked on official forms if you are Aus citizen and then further on, if you are ATSI descent. You are not labelled as a non-Aboriginal / Torres Strait Islander.

If we take the idea from Wikipedia that Pakeha is merely a descriptive term, then Michael Laws should then also be able to describe Tongan kings as he sees too no?

[nodrog]

geez you honky's get upset easily :)

[scott411]

this is a pet hate of mine as well,

i write in New Zealander on all forms that ask

my beef is two fold,

one i can trace my family back 6 generations in NZ, that makes me a new zealander, the problem i have with being called Pakeha is i feel it just determins me as white or european, the fact i could be australian, or english does not matter, i am just a paheka. i do not see why i chould be called european, i am not from europe, i am from New Zealand, if i was 6th generation american, i would be called american, not something that means outsider.

the other reason i hate teh pakeha word is that i think it seperates us, i have freinds that are of moari, pacific island, indian, asian and european decent, we are all new zealanders, we all cheer when the all blacks win, we all boo when Helen takes something away or taxes us more, i like that some parts of our culture have moari origin, i like the fact i come from this little group of islands in teh south pacfic

[Albino]

I'm also uncomfortable with its' use, particularly on official documents. I always cross it out and write "New Zealander".

This approach has been causing the waitemata DHB some headaches as they get funding based on ethnicity of people in their catchment area.

What's worse - Pakeha or NZ European?

[Sanx]

Have you read Michael King's The Penguin History of New Zealand?

Not that interested in Penguins.

[Trudes]

It used to bother me, but only because I'd been brought up in a family where I was made to believe it was a derogatory way of saying white fella in Maori. I have since read a fair amount of literature on the subject and have developed what I believe to be an informed opinion of my own about it, especially after reading Michael King's words of wisdom on the subject, I am now happy calling myself Pakeha as I understand the meaning of the word as it realtes to me.
Each to their own really, but I feel it has a meaning of belonging, as opposed to calling yourself a European New Zealander which I feel somehow implys that you were not born here, whereas Pakeha belongs to NZ, as Maori does. Just my opinion.

[007XX]

I honnestly don't mind it...

I was born in New Caledonia, where there are different terms for the European Caledonian (freshly moved from France to NC), for the white Caledonian (derived from the first convicts sent on the island), and another again for the native New Caledonian...

Then I come here, and at first I'm french, then people discover I have been here for 13 years, and so I suddenly become a Pakeha...

My point is: a different title assigned to me does not make me who I am...
It is only other people trying to slot me into an identity they feel comfortable with.

[Karma]

What's worse - Pakeha or NZ European?


NZ European doesn't exist... you're either a New Zealander or you're European.

Personally I live here in NZ, no issues with that, but I'll still class myself as English, that's where I was born and raised.

If however you wanted citizenship, then you'd stop being European and start being a New Zealander... can't have both.

[Sniper]

Dont find it offense at all;
What about Ehore?
Sounds terrible..but in fact its not.

Internet prostitution is legal too?

I always put myself as South African. My NZ passport says Im a New Zealander, not a Pakeha. Either way, Im just a difficult bugger

[Dilligaf]

It's interesting alright. I see myself as Australian although it has now been over 10 years since I lived there. I am the only person in my family born there (expat parents who themselves were POMS).
Pity my poor daughter who was born in Thailand, given Australian citizenship but has never lived there... who oh who will she represent for that Olympic medal???

[Swoop]

Not that interested in Penguins.
Perhaps you should be. They were here long before the white man OR the maori.

The genuine tangata whenua are short, have wings (but don't fly) and eat lots of fish.
They are not too fond of seals though...

[Grahameeboy]

Dont find it offense at all;
What about Ehore?
Sounds terrible..but in fact its not.

Poo, Tigger, Roo............

[peasea]

my beef is two fold,



I thought you were a bloke....

[Grahameeboy]

geez you honky's get upset easily :)

Yep agree with you there.

I was called a POM for years, even though it was not technically correct as it refers to either prisoners of mother England or sailors from Portsmouth, I did not care........but got a bit bored after a while so would answer "No", they would say "Well who are you" and I would say "I am me".

But I always answer "Others" as New Zealander for my Daughter rather than New Zealand European as she is not a European, she is 100% Kiwi and I am proud of that, she is more Kiwi than Maori's are Maori............:shutup:

[Grahameeboy]

I thought you were a bloke....

Getting harder to tell these days eh.............

[BuFfY]

Yep agree with you there.

I was called a POM for years, even though it was not technically correct as it refers to either prisoners of mother England or sailors from Portsmouth, I did not care........but got a bit bored after a while so would answer "No", they would say "Well who are you" and I would say "I am me".

But I always answer "Others" as New Zealander for my Daughter rather than New Zealand European as she is not a European, she is 100% Kiwi and I am proud of that, she is more Kiwi than Maori's are Maori............:shutup:

People calling you a POM is one thing, but it being in educational literature is completely different. It would be like calling the Pasific Island people FOBs

[Grahameeboy]

People calling you a POM is one thing, but it being in educational literature is completely different. It would be like calling the Pasific Island people FOBs

Is the name POM not in educational literature? Mind you most Brits are illiterate from reading The Sun too much........

[peasea]

Is the name POM not in educational literature? Mind you most Brits are illiterate from reading The Sun too much........

Not to mention blinded by its output.

[EJT]

"The fact is, pakeha was first used to call the Europeans 'white pig' or some other variant."

You have stated this as a fact, when it is anything but. And a quick read of the huge amount of material around on the subject would have shown you the position is unclear. Why did early settlers refer to themselves as Pakeha?

If you refer to yourself as a New Zealander, I take it you don't ever refer to Maori as Maori or Asian New Zealanders as Asian?

I would have thought hearing the term "European" or "Caucasion" used daily on TV would cause more offence.

[Macktheknife]

Perhaps you should be. They were here long before the white man OR the maori.

The genuine tangata whenua are short, have wings (but don't fly) and eat lots of fish.
They are not too fond of seals though...

Actually mate, the original Tangata Whenua, were short, pale skinned, and frequently had red hair, and they were referred to as the 'stone people' or 'stone builders' by those who arrived here before the maori. Of course they were all driven off/killed off and some were eaten by the warlike maori when they arrived some 900 years later.

Interesting stuff history.

But back on topic, being called Pakeha doesn't bother me at all, tauiwi on the other hand does bother me a bit.
But the one that really upset me was a maori activist who said that because I was white I had no history or mana or whakapapa. Ignorant savage.

[LilSel]

I'm also uncomfortable with its' use, particularly on official documents. I always cross it out and write "New Zealander".

me too!! lol... I was under the belief that it ment white pig... so I dont wanna be called taht

[MisterD]

You can quote all the Wikipedia entries you like, but to me the term is still derogatory - it is, by and large, used by maori in a perjorative manner to mean "colonial $&%##!@ to blame for everything that's worng with my life".

It goes over my head, because I'm not one, I'm English (Nga Yorkshirenui, same tribe as J Cook). I'm a POM, also a derogatory term, but I'm reclaiming it "nigger" style

[MSTRS]

me too!! lol... I was under the belief that it ment white pig... so I dont wanna be called taht

I think that belief came about from the Maori word for human flesh, which translates as 'long pig', as I understand.
Tongue firmly back in cheek - my earlier translation of 'pa-ke-ha' was interpretation only...another way could be that it means 'tastes strange (when) dead'. :chase:

[Ocean1]

I'm also uncomfortable with its' use, particularly on official documents. I always cross it out and write "New Zealander".


This approach has been causing the waitemata DHB some headaches as they get funding based on ethnicity of people in their catchment area.

Excellent, another chip in the race-based health funding abomination.
Although, if we all claimed to be Maori there'd be more health alms available in the area...


What's worse - Pakeha or NZ European?

Think that's the point, why do we have only those choices? "Pakeha" is not a valid alternative to "Maori", neither for that matter is "Asian". Christ half the planet is "Asian", a range of cultures probably as numerous as the rest of the planet put together. The problem I have is that Pakiha is not a culturally descriptive noun, it's exclusive, it essentially means "foreigner" and I decline to be so labeled.

[007XX]

Think that's the point, why do we have only those choices? "Pakeha" is not a valid alternative to "Maori", neither for that matter is "Asian". Christ half the planet is "Asian", a range of cultures probably as numerous as the rest of the planet put together. The problem I have is that Pakiha is not a culturally descriptive noun, it's exclusive, it essentially means "foreigner" and I decline to be so labeled.

What i find utterly frustrating, is that we all have various ancestry, making us all a "melting pot" of the races...

Why do we keep on wanting to seclude ourselves as of such or such race...

Call me New Age, but I got all sorts of bloodlines in my veins, and I'm very proud of all of them.

[hXc]

I was born in New Caledonia, where there are different terms for the European Caledonian (freshly moved from France to NC), for the white Caledonian (derived from the first convicts sent on the island), and another again for the native New Caledonian... Like the word Canaque. Was first used to indigenous inhabitants of the South Pacific Ocean, including the Melanesian native inhabitants of New Caledonia (IE, non-Polynesian). But now it's derogatory. Huh?

Sounds like the word nigger to me. Nigger came from Negroid, which is one of the three races in this world; Mongoloid, Caucasian, and Negroid. It is what they are! How is it right for a NIGGER to call another of his type a NIGGER, but not right for me to call them a NIGGER?! And this is considering the fact that I myself am part Negro.


I would have thought hearing the term "European" or "Caucasion" used daily on TV would cause more offence.European describes place of origin. Caucasian describes race.
A European is someone who was born in Europe, or of European decent.
A Caucasian is ANYONE who is white.


People take offence to all kinds of words without actually knowing what they originally meant. I personally don't like being called Pakeha, as I'm not a settler or foreigner to this land. I was born here, therefore, I am a New Zealander, who happens to be white. Like an American, who happens to be white. No difference. You'll always find people who take offence at any number of words. If you attempt to only use words that will be completely acceptable to everyone, you may very likely find that you possess about the same vocabulary as, say, a mollusk.

People need to grow up really. Pakeha is derogatory.
Nigger/Negro is not. Nor is Asian or Caucasian.

Why? Pakeha was a name given to the white settlers of New Zealand (Caucasians), that the Maori's (Negroid - some say Mongoloid, but we'll leave that out for now) initially ate. It was used because they didn't have another word for 'us'. Now most Maori's quite happily use English as their first language, and play Caucasian sports etc, but still wish to call 'us' a derogatory term that was used a couple of hundred years ago. And we can't even call them what they are?!

[Joni]

A few months after I arrived in NZ, I had to fill in a few forms for something... I remember being dumbfounded by the question race? Maori, Pakeha etc etc or other.

Now coming from a country where is now not acceptable to class people by the race they were born in - I remember thinking Hmmf, thats damn rude... so I said "other" when speciying what other I said "South African" - as if thats a race :whistle: (no smart comments please!)

Anyway excuse the babble... surely race does not matter, you are a Kiwi, end of story... I am a Saffa living in NZ end of story.

Maybe Im too simplistic.

[Ocean1]

What i find utterly frustrating, is that we all have various ancestry, making us all a "melting pot" of the races...

Why do we keep on wanting to seclude ourselves as of such or such race...

Call me New Age, but I got all sorts of bloodlines in my veins, and I'm very proud of all of them.

Well New Age, you're perfectly correct. In fact like everyone else you probably only THINK you know most of the last several generations of family history. I understand some 5 - 6% of pregnancies are attributable to someone other than the lawful husband. That means there's a better than average chance that you aren't in fact descended from your great grandparents.

What people identify with, (in an attempt to reinforce a sense of belonging) is CULTURAL descendancy. That's fine, just understand that the same thing applies: you ain't what you believe, no matter how "pure" you think your liniage. I respectfully suggest "Unknown" should be introduced to all census forms. Until then I'll use "Other".

[BuFfY]

Well New Age, you're perfectly correct. In fact like everyone else you probably only THINK you know most of the last several generations of family history. I understand some 5 - 6% of pregnancies are attributable to someone other than the lawful husband. That means there's a better than average chance that you aren't in fact descended from your great grandparents.

What people identify with, (in an attempt to reinforce a sense of belonging) is CULTURAL descendancy. That's fine, just understand that the same thing applies: you ain't what you believe, no matter how "pure" you think your liniage.

Yeah you are right there. My dad was adopted yet I have been bought up to identify with his adopted family and their history. My Poppa wrote a book on my family history which is what I base my history on. My birth grandma (who we call Auntie Paula) I don't know too much about and I don't know anything about Dad's birth Dad.

[007XX]

Like the word Canaque. Was first used to indigenous inhabitants of the South Pacific Ocean, including the Melanesian native inhabitants of New Caledonia (IE, non-Polynesian). But now it's derogatory. Huh?

That's the one...the urban legend is that it means "ears eaters", due to a popular belief that the first emigrants got attacked and eaten, whith their ears being removed first...
And yes, the native of New Caledonia used to find it very insulting, but now have made it part of their "cultural identity", brandishing it as a coat of armor...

Any similarities with the loss of meaning behind the Tanga Tawhenua title?



And this is considering the fact that I myself am part Negro.

Same here...My great, great grandmother was as black as the ace of spade...and yet, I am as white as milk with blue eyes!

Go the genetic mix up...

[Joni]

Go the genetic mix up...Pretty much me too! :wari:

[hXc]

That's the one...the urban legend is that it means "ears eaters", due to a popular belief that the first emigrants got attacked and eaten, whith their ears being removed first...
And yes, the native of New Caledonia used to find it very insulting, but now have made it part of their "cultural identity", brandishing it as a coat of armor...Thought that it was still offensive. Was told by locals and our french teacher not to say it. Even the host family we stayed with never used it. Pretty much compares to Nigger here. Say it to a black person (which is what they are!) and get the bash.


Same here...My great, great grandmother was as black as the ace of spade...and yet, I am as white as milk with blue eyes!

Go the genetic mix up...My father is fairly black, yet I am white with blonde hair and grey eyes.

[Hitcher]

The whole point of being an educator, and a good one, is to allow children to make up their own minds about the issues they face. What they believe should not be criticized.

That's an interesting interpretation. Whatever happened to fact-based learning? If a child decides that the sun revolves around the earth, or that the earth is flat, or that a balanced diet comprises equal amounts of hard-boiled eggs and celery, then an "educator's" work is done? Surely not...

[Whoops, I see that this discussion is already well advanced. But I'm still spoiling for a scrap with any liberal, left-wing educators who're up for it]

[Ocean1]

Like the word Canaque. Was first used to indigenous inhabitants of the South Pacific Ocean, including the Melanesian native inhabitants of New Caledonia (IE, non-Polynesian). But now it's derogatory. Huh?

That's the one...the urban legend is that it means "ears eaters", due to a popular belief that the first emigrants got attacked and eaten, whith their ears being removed first...

Now that's inneresting, apparently Tongans had a taste for ear soup, the ears having been removed from the slower opponents in battle.

[Hitcher]

What about Ehore?

Winnie The Pooh's offsider?

[hXc]

That's an interesting interpretation. Whatever happened to fact-based learning? If a child decides that the sun revolves around the earth, or that the earth is flat, or that a balanced diet comprises equal amounts of hard-boiled eggs and celery, then an "educator's" work is done? Surely not...Ah, but that is not a belief system. It is fact that those are incorrect.
Me believing the moon is cheese and my teacher telling me wrong, is the educator doing their work.
Me believing that God is our Saviour and Jesus died on the cross for my sins and my teacher telling me wrong, is the educator being a plonker.

I may be wrong about God and Jesus etc, but it's what I believe. There is NOTHING to tell me that believing or not believing is correct or incorrect.

(Not saying that I believe either of those.)

[Phurrball]

Interesting thing etymology.

People will cling to all sorts of debunked myths to justify their viewpoint.

I need not say more, suffice to say that scholarly opinion is in line with the information presented in Wikipedia

I for one am proud to be Pakeha and Tangata Tiriti. Anyone can be a 'white NZer' even foreigners that have settled on these shores quite recently.

To be Pakeha Tangata Tiriti is a special status, unique to non-Maori New Zealanders in recognition of our founding document (and the reason all us non-Maori are [I]LEGALLY here.) This status belongs to no other country, and is (or ought to be) a point of difference and pride.

Whatever its origins, Pakeha has become normal usage to describe a NZer of roughly european ancestry. It's not offensive (even if the only way you can possibly see it as such is by extensive usage and adoption, like say 'bugger'. There is more to it than that, as it never was offensive)

Those that seek to define it as offensive merely seek greivance and an axe to grind - are you really any better that Maori overreaching in their claims to find greivance where there is none?

[007XX]

Well New Age, you're perfectly correct. In fact like everyone else you probably only THINK you know most of the last several generations of family history. I understand some 5 - 6% of pregnancies are attributable to someone other than the lawful husband. That means there's a better than average chance that you aren't in fact descended from your great grandparents.

What people identify with, (in an attempt to reinforce a sense of belonging) is CULTURAL descendancy. That's fine, just understand that the same thing applies: you ain't what you believe, no matter how "pure" you think your liniage. I respectfully suggest "Unknown" should be introduced to all census forms. Until then I'll use "Other".

The only misconception I'm frightened of is that people still think that a "pure" lineage exists, and that it is a better way to be...

I strongly believe I am an alien anyway...



Pretty much me too! :wari:

heck yeah...and it makes us stronger as a race...the mixing of genetic pools can only strengthen the immuno defences by intermingling the different attributes of each race.

A "pure" blood line is in effect a dying one, or at least an impoverished one genetically speaking.


Thought that it was still offensive. Was told by locals and our french teacher not to say it. Even the host family we stayed with never used it. Pretty much compares to Nigger here. Say it to a black person (which is what they are!) and get the bash.

My father is fairly black, yet I am white with blonde hair and grey eyes.

Admitedly, I have not been there for a few years...not sure about the up to date status of it to be honnest.

The interesting bit about your lineage, is that in maybe 4 generations, one of your descendant may inherit the full attributes of your father's genetical makeup, regardless of what the parents look like...

[Sniper]

Winnie The Pooh's offsider?

I thought of that. But not many these days know who Eeyore is so I presumed it was either, email sex or and "Hore" you could book on the internet



Yes, Sad, I know

[hXc]

To be Pakeha Tangata Tiriti is a special status, unique to non-Maori New Zealanders in recognition of our founding document (and the reason all us non-Maori are LEGALLY here.) This status belongs to no other country, and is (or ought to be) a point of difference and pride.That's political correctness at it's finest. We are all New Zealanders. We are made up of many different races here, and maori is just one of those. You could never be a non-'Pakeha' New Zealander, could you?

[Phurrball]

That's political correctness at it's finest. We are all New Zealanders. We are made up of many different races here, and maori is just one of those. You could never be a non-'Pakeha' New Zealander, could you?

Quite right there are many races colour and creeds here who are all NZers, Maori happened to be here before any Europeans and rightly have some acknowledgment of that fact in law. What I state is merely fact. But for the grace of the Treaty of Waitangi are we non-maori here. Political correctness has nothing to do with it. It is historical fact.

I am other things in addition to Pakeha Tangata Tiriti, for example, I'm Irish enough to have a passport, and I identify strongly with that ancestry and culture, but my being Pakeha Tangata Tiriti is my birthright.

[hXc]

I strongly believe I am an alien anyway...
Which, you are quite entitled to believe. Alien only means something foreign to something else. For example, a cellphone is an alien to a starving 8yo in Africa who needs only a dollar a day.


Admitedly, I have not been there for a few years...not sure about the up to date status of it to be honnest.

The interesting bit about your lineage, is that in maybe 4 generations, one of your descendant may inherit the full attributes of your father's genetical makeup, regardless of what the parents look like...I was only there for a week, but either of us could be right. Depends where you are in New Caledonia anyway, I was only in Noumea.

And yeah, that could be 'interesting' to say the least. I wish luck to my great great grandchildren in explaining that situation to whoever.:woohoo:

[Lias]

Being particularly politically incorrect I object to both "Pakeha" and "NZ European". I cross out both and put "White" :girlfight:

[Hitcher]

I thought of that. But not many these days know who Eeyore is so I presumed it was either, email sex or and "Hore" you could book on the internet

Surely that would be an E-whore? (Silent w, as in whospital...)

[hXc]

Quite right there are many races colour and creeds here who are all NZers, Maori happened to be here before any Europeans and rightly have some acknowledgment of that fact in law. What I state is merely fact. But for the grace of the Treaty of Waitangi are we non-maori here. Political correctness has nothing to do with it. It is historical fact.But it is just giving a derogative label to a majority, to keep a minority happy. But in doing so, you are creating a relatively unhappy majority.

I know that what you state is fact, but the Maori are a minority race. And the Maori do treat racism very one sided too. I highly doubt that if the Treaty of Waitangi didn't exist that we 'non-Maori' wouldn't be here. After all, we were the ones who brought guns and other forms of more effective weaponry to the Maori. Maybe then we wouldn't have as many Maori people, or no Maori people.

[007XX]

Which, you are quite entitled to believe. Alien only means something foreign to something else. For example, a cellphone is an alien to a starving 8yo in Africa who needs only a dollar a day.

I was only there for a week, but either of us could be right. Depends where you are in New Caledonia anyway, I was only in Noumea.

And yeah, that could be 'interesting' to say the least. I wish luck to my great great grandchildren in explaining that situation to whoever.:woohoo:

Sweet as..and based upon my belief, mine might just sprout tentacules one of these days...:laugh:


Being particularly politically incorrect I object to both "Pakeha" and "NZ European". I cross out both and put "White" :girlfight:

C'mon now...Don't be like that!

[Sniper]

Surely that would be an E-whore? (Silent w, as in whospital...)

Hmm, on further thought, that makes more sense. Although with the way our N.Z schooling, grammer and spelling is going, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a combination of all.

[Kittyhawk]

Does it really matter what we are called? It's only words.

People take offence to all kinds of things these days, and as society reproduces, so do words.

As long as people get your name right that's the main thing.

I was born and bred in NZ, am white, but have multiple bloods, so what would I be labled as????

Can you really lable things? NZ European? European? Kiwi? No one has pure blood, if you did would you be a pure New Zealander?

[Ocean1]

I highly doubt that if the Treaty of Waitangi didn't exist that we 'non-Maori' wouldn't be here. After all, we were the ones who brought guns and other forms of more effective weaponry to the Maori. Maybe then we wouldn't have as many Maori people, or no Maori people.

Hmm, "right of conquest" worked for Maori, maybe you're right.

[MSTRS]

With the obvious shift in the meanings of words over the years, the word 'pakeha' may have come to mean something other than it's original use denoted. That does not mean that 'I' should be happy and comfortable with it's use to pigeon-hole me. My genetic heritage is diverse, but I was born here. I am a New Zealander.
(ps - hXc...seen my legs in shorts??)

[Sniper]

I was born and bred in NZ, am white, but have multiple bloods, so what would I be labled as????


A moggy?:dodge:

[hXc]

Can you really lable things? NZ European? European? Kiwi? No one has pure blood, if you did would you be a pure New Zealander?No body ever can be pure -insert nationality here-, not by blood. We all had to have got to our country from somewhere else, which means we all have to have another nationality in us somewhere. Yes it will be a little amount, but it still exists.

And anyway...like the Mastercard ad, 'Knowing we are all made of the same stuff: Priceless."

[hXc]

(ps - hXc...seen my legs in shorts??)Unfortunately I have. Albeit maybe 10 times in 16 years, that's far too many in my books. And you're still a nigger. Like Stewie calls Peter 'Fatman', you're a 'Blackman'.

And Blackman, nor Fatman are any relation to Batman.

[Phurrball]

But it is just giving a derogative label to a majority, to keep a minority happy. But in doing so, you are creating a relatively unhappy majority.

Opinion stated as fact does not bear any more weight when there is evidence to debunk it.


I know that what you state is fact, but the Maori are a minority race. And the Maori do treat racism very one sided too. I highly doubt that if the Treaty of Waitangi didn't exist that we 'non-Maori' wouldn't be here. After all, we were the ones who brought guns and other forms of more effective weaponry to the Maori. Maybe then we wouldn't have as many Maori people, or no Maori people.

What a great and morally upstanding way to colonise the world that would be I know, I'll beat up on those with inferior weaponry to consolidate my place in the world and prove I'm a big man! Thank fark for the treaty. If colonisation was as you describe. The world would be a boring, monocultural place... and more valuable cultures would be gone, or in a woeful state (Australian Aboriginies spring to mind...)

Go and watch Jared Diamond's DVD, 'Gun's, Germs and Streel' It's only luck that Europeans were successful colonisers. Nothing to do with any superiority. Bloody interesting hypothesis as to why whitey has done so 'well'.

If opressive majorities were allowed free reign, where would the world be. Bikes would be outlawed by now surely??

[MSTRS]

....Bikes would be outlawed by now surely??

Go to your room. No dinner for you tonight.
"No bikes..." HARRUMPH!!!

[hXc]

What a great and morally upstanding way to colonise the world that would be I know, I'll beat up on those with inferior weaponry to consolidate my place in the world and prove I'm a big man! Thank fark for the treaty. If colonisation was as you describe. The world would be a boring, monocultural place... and more valuable cultures would be gone, or in a woeful state (Australian Aboriginies spring to mind...)I'm not saying I condone what I suggested, but it was a statement that was supposed to be though provoking for those who don't have enough brains to think about things like this for themselves.

And the Aboriginies aren't in a woeful state? Ok, no need to panic guys, apparently the Abbos are fine...Yeah right!

I do not support all that white man have done throughout history, in fact, a lot of it is shameful and I disagree with it. But it's history and we can't change it. The Abbos were treated extremely unfairly, and still are today. A real easy way to check this is by listening to Midnight Oil. May not like the music ok, but the lyrics are bloody good.

Peter Garret is a good activist for the Aboriginies.

[Sniper]

Hmmmm, have you chatted to any of the original abbos that have had little or nothing to do with the supposed "White devil". They couldnt care less and are quite happy going about their daily buisness and not having anything to do with those that want more of everything

Its the others that have learnt they can extract $$ and privlidges from the White Govt and then cause trouble and write crap when they don't get any more instead of being happy and feeling privlidged with what they have

Sit down and have a very good chat with the older generation. They have stories to tell that will put all the young, know it alls (Not that you are one Mr hXc) in their place damn quickly. Wisdom comes with age and even then, it is a foolish man who is not eager to learn even when lying prone.

I found something extremly interesting that was said by every elder gentlemen I met. And that was that all the hassels, arguments, wants for this, that and the next thing comes from the young generation. The elder generation with common sense stay away and cringe at the fact they are tarred with the same brush

[hXc]

Sit down and have a very good chat with the older generation. They have stories to tell that will put all the young, know it alls (Not that you are one Mr hXc) in their place damn quicklyNot saying that the Abbos are a perfect race, in fact, I know they're not. But the way the government has treated them in past hasn't been so great. And a community treating it's government like shit, is far more acceptable than a government treating a community like shit if you ask me.

[Sniper]

Not saying that the Abbos are a perfect race, in fact, I know they're not. But the way the government has treated them in past hasn't been so great. And a community treating it's government like shit, is far more acceptable than a government treating a community like shit if you ask me.

Dead right, Im not arguing that. But you could relate that comment to any indigenuos population throughout the world.

On a side note, have you ever heard of any Govt not taking advantage of those who don't know better (even those that do) regadless of skin colour or ethnicticity :) :p

[Big Dave]

Ngati Ocker...

Lovely - new sig coming up.

[hXc]

Dead right, Im not arguing that. But you could relate that comment to any indigenuos population throughout the world.

On a side note, have you ever heard of any Govt not taking advantage of those who don't know better (even those that do) regadless of skin colour or ethnicticity :) :pNope. But The Aboriginies just came to mind really.

[Sniper]

Nope. But The Aboriginies just came to mind really.

Fair enough and good example.


Its aboriginals. They don't tend to like being called aboriginies.

[Dilligaf]

Actually Sniper, aboriginal is an adjective. Aborigine is the noun.
My university papers learnt me that... ;)

[BuFfY]

That's an interesting interpretation. Whatever happened to fact-based learning? If a child decides that the sun revolves around the earth, or that the earth is flat, or that a balanced diet comprises equal amounts of hard-boiled eggs and celery, then an "educator's" work is done? Surely not...

[Whoops, I see that this discussion is already well advanced. But I'm still spoiling for a scrap with any liberal, left-wing educators who're up for it]

Fact learning is something that you obviously have to teach. 2 + 2 does in fact equal 4. Yet one of the most important things for teachers to do it to establish childrens prior knowledge. So getting them to tell you that they think that the sun revolves the earth is a teaching point. Yet the values they bring in from home isn't something that a teacher has the right to change.


Ah, but that is not a belief system. It is fact that those are incorrect.
Me believing the moon is cheese and my teacher telling me wrong, is the educator doing their work.
Me believing that God is our Saviour and Jesus died on the cross for my sins and my teacher telling me wrong, is the educator being a plonker.

I may be wrong about God and Jesus etc, but it's what I believe. There is NOTHING to tell me that believing or not believing is correct or incorrect.

(Not saying that I believe either of those.)

Yeah... what he said! :niceone:

[Sniper]

Actually Sniper, aboriginal is an adjective. Aborigine is the noun.
My university papers learnt me that... ;)

Shit, you learn something new everyday. I didnt know that thanks, bling for ya :D

[MSTRS]

The interesting thing about the word 'aborigine' is that it was a whiteman's word for 'native or original occupier'....over the years it has come to refer to the Australian natives only.:hitcher:

[yungatart]

I don't like to be labelled white (I have olive skin), European (even tho my family came from Europe a few moons ago), Pakeha,or Caucasian (there is a possibility I have some Maori blood).
I am a New Zealander! I was born and bred in the Naki!
Some say I am a Ngati Whaka ....pfft, what do they know!

[SlashWylde]

It annoys me deeply that all the literature I read refers to me as 'pakeha' and that I have to sit through lectures and be called 'pakeha'.
....

Please don't tell me I am the only one! This is one of the few times my sexy red hair gets the better of me!

Well I don't tend to think about it too much but I don't regard myself as a Pakeha, and would probably take offense if someone insisted on labeling me as such.

I'm a European, in the sense that I was born in Europe.

I guess I find it offensive when people make assumptions about who I am based on the colour of my skin, which I guess is a sad reality of daily life for the darkies of the world. Had an interesting conversation with a mate at my former work-place once. She's a Fijian-Indian woman and one day in lunch time conversation about where each of us were from, she asked me (based on the colour of my skin and my European heritage) "So you're a Christian, right?" to which I replied, "No, I'm a human being" meaning I don't identify myself first and foremost by the colour of my skin or which imaginary friend I happen to believe in - Yes, I am in fact an Atheist, and probably a Humanist too if I stopped to think about it.

[xwhatsit]

But to criticize is to imply the negatives, yet to critique you look at it from all angles but still state the facts.
I guess some of us just prefer to look at some things from a postive angle, rather than always from above

As a teacher, you should probably know that it's `criticise', not `criticize'. Furthermore criticism means primarily (especially in this context) simply to evaluate. Nothing to do with negativity. Its secondary meaning is to find fault, in which case you might draw some negatives, but that's a very down-at-the-pub way of using the word.

`European' works well for me (even though Australians find the use of that term confusing, they don't use it like that over there). But I have no issue being called `Pākēha', especially after learning it has nothing to do with being a white pig or anything of the sort. I don't mind being called a mythical creature :lol:

If you look at a lot of the etymologies of words you'll find funny things. For instance, the word `bugger' apparently comes from French bougre, which was derived from Latin for `Bulgarian'. Apparently Bulgarians were considered to be sodomists or something. Does that mean when I use the word `bugger' I'm insulting Bulgarians? Well, I don't think Māoris mean to call me a mythical creature when they call me a Pākēha. In fact I'd bet 90% of people who use that word don't speak Māori, and wouldn't understand the etymology anyway (and that goes for Māoris as well).

[Hitcher]

I am a New Zealander! I was born and bred in the Naki!

Yo, sister!

A lot of this requiring to state ethnicity is done for no other reason than collect stats for the PC brigade to pore over as they nurse their wrath to keep it warm. Several summers ago, whilst then in the employ of the State housing provider, I railed against the need to collect ethnicity statistics on our tenants, as this was not (supposed to be) a consideration in determining their need for housing. And it wasn't. But the bureaucrats in the then Ministry won that battle.

There are provisions in the Privacy Act 1993 about not collecting spurious or unnecessary information. Apparently these don't apply to government agencies.

[Big Dave]

`European' works well for me (even though Australians find the use of that term confusing, they don't use it like that over there).

Up until recently 'European' was polite for 'Wog'.

Douglas Adams:

The last confusing thing about Australia is the inhabitants. First, a short history: Some time around 40,000 years ago, some people arrived in boats from the north. They ate all the available food, and a lot of them died. The ones that survived learned respect for the balance of nature, man's proper place in the scheme of things, and spiders. They settled in, and spent a lot of the intervening time making up strange stories.

Then, around 200 years ago, Europeans arrived in boats from the north. More accurately, European convicts were sent, with a few deranged and stupid people in charge. They tried to plant their crops in Autumn (failing to take account of the reversal of the seasons when moving from the top half of the planet to the bottom), ate all their food, and a lot of them died.

About then the sheep arrived, and have been treasured ever since. It is interesting to note here that the Europeans always consider themselves vastly superior to any other race they encounter, since they can lie, cheat, steal, and litigate (marks of a civilised culture they say) - whereas all the Aboriginals can do is happily survive being left in the middle of a vast red-hot desert, equipped with a stick.

Eventually, the new lot of people stopped being Europeans on Extended Holiday and became Australians. The changes are subtle, but deep, caused by the mind-stretching expanses of nothingness and eerie quiet, where a person can sit perfectly still and look deep inside themselves to the core of their essence, their reasons for being, and the necessity of checking inside your boots every morning for fatal surprises. They also picked up the most finely tuned sense of irony in the world, and the Aboriginal gift for making up stories. Be warned.

[roogazza]

If we all keep breeding the way we are , are we all not going to be Pakehas eventually ??
ps. anyone ever noticed how few polynesians ride bikes ? There's a thread start ? G.

[Beemer]

I have never liked the term pakeha, no matter what it really means and whether it is intended to be offensive or not. We speak English in NZ and I am a European or a New Zealander, not a pakeha. I particularly hate it when the word is hissed out between gritted teeth - "well, you wouldn't understand because you're a pakeha" - that makes me want to give them the bash!

And I know I will get shit for this, but I used to hate having to do cultural sensitivity classes during my studies - I had to do them for nursing and journalism and I've never once used anything I learned in those classes - unless you count having to take your shoes off when entering a maori classroom at a school...

[terbang]

Palangi, Orang Putih, Buleh, Ribelli and dick head are labels I have received from people from other cultures. They are just names that don't bother me too much and were generally only a descriptive and inoffensive label that us "White guys" get.
However, as Beemer has already touched on, it is the tonal connotations that go along with the use of the word Pakeha that often worry me a bit. Mind you I'm from the generation that still pronounces Mowrey rather than the now trendy Maooari. Maybe I deserve to have Pakeha hissed back.

[MSTRS]

Terbang - you don't deserve the inflection given your pronunciation of the word 'maori'....how many of our brown friends speak English 'properly'??

[Stickchick]

I used to work for a Sportswear company way back when we got taken over by a maori company I actually got a formal warning for the not pronouncing the word "Kia Ora" correctly when I answered the phone!!!

[McJim]

I resent the name Pakeha. I am not a pig.
I resent the name white. I am not white (rather a sort of blue veined marble :rofl:)

I call Maori people Maori because that is their name for their people I expect the same respect in turn.

I am a Scot. This is my people's name for my people. That's not too hard to say is it?

[Big Dave]

I am a Scot. This is my people's name for my people. That's not too hard to say is it?

You bastards seem to have enough trouble - 'What's a Scort' I ask????

[Big Dave]

I am a European or a New Zealander,

Sorry to go off track but I find it an interesting cultural difference.
An Aussie would NEVER say 'I'm a European'. Like ashes in our mouths.

Some of the most successful marketing slogans are like:
'I am, you are, we are...Australian'.

Kiwis don't bang that drum nearly as hard. So I do it for you. ;-P
Just cleaned up with a 'Uniquely New Zealand' pitch.

[SPman]

This is where we differ. I am always ready to tell the Emperor that he has no clothes.
You still recognise Emperors ?


Other than the Penguin variety........

[Big Dave]

You still recognise Emperors ?


Other than the Penguin variety........

Mills and Boone.

[terbang]

An Aussie would NEVER say 'I'm a European'. Like ashes in our mouths.

Some of the most successful marketing slogans are like:
'I am, you are, we are...Australian'.



Well your Aussie forebears cut their ties with the mother land a bit quicker than our Kiwi ones. Mind you, they didn't exactly arrive in Van Diemans land via a business class fare either.

I understood the Tonan/Maori word for Pig to be Powaka. Well it begins with a 'P'.

[McJim]

Well your Aussie forebears cut their ties with the mother land a bit quicker than our Kiwi ones. Mind you, they didn't exactly arrive in Van Diemans land via a business class fare either.

I understood the Tonan/Maori word for Pig to be Powaka. Well it begins with a 'P'.

But when they had the opportunity to vote for the abolision of the Monarchy in Oz what happened?

Crikey - if we'd had the opportunity in Scotland to have a president for the head of State we'd have been there like a shot!

Hey Big Dave, have you still got the queen's head on your currency?

[BAD DAD]

The word, "pakeha" seems to be more of word used by the media and those employed by the government. No one has ever referred to me as a "Pakeha" in verbal conversation except those that were working for local or central government agencies, which include education departments. I think that it has become a bit of a bourgeois sort of word that has meaning only to those that use it. I wouldn't take offence from it these days, in fact I'd probably grin slyly to myself if someone called me a ''Pakeha".
I remember being at a house in the southern suburbs of Perth W.A. 20+ years ago that was inhabited by black tee-shirt wearing, piss swiling,V8 tow truck driving (etc etc) working class battlers that someone later referred to jokingly as "Westies". It was kind of derogatory and implied that these hospitable folk were possibly knuckle draggers and later back in NZ I noticed the same word beginning to ciculate to the point that now even the middle class baby boomers of West Auckland LOVE to be called not only "Pakeha" but also "Westie".

[Big Dave]

But when they had the opportunity to vote for the abolision of the Monarchy in Oz what happened?



The politicians devised and presented a model where the head of state was a politician - chosen only by the politicians.

If the constitution was reworked so that the populace could directly choose the head of state it would achieve the numbers at referendum.

But distrust and disregard of authority figures (formerly the Red Coated Army - now Politicians) is ingrained from the glorification of the harsh convict past. Us against them.

We didn't trust the bastards to elect a non-bastard so we stuck with Lizzie cause at least - even though entirely inappropriate - she isn't a politician.

Yeah queens head - One of My School's (http://www.sths.nsw.edu.au) Captains is on one too.

[avgas]

Pakeha, despite allegations about its origins, is a name generally used to denote a non-Maori person. No offence is generally intended in its use, so none should be taken.
But dont you think it strange that opposite words grab attention.
Non-white,
Anti-Christ
Unintelligent
Non-reserved
Why should 'non-maori' in maori tongue be any different.
I think the term NZer should be adopted by those who wish as some of us only know NZ as home. I know 5 or so generations ago previous to me my family came from europe. but do you think i know anything about their culture? I only know NZ culture - which is not in all terms the same as Maori.

[avgas]

Whats brown,
Doesn't do anything most of the day,
Sleeps all day,
Sometimes has to be cared for by others,
ends up on tv,
picks a fight with a brown mate every now and then,
trys to claim the rivers,
is not a winter lover?














Brown bear of course

[candor]

It's all in the delivery if its an insult. Just like how we can say Maori nicely or spit it out.

I think we do need to narrow down more than the generic term NZer.
No way would I treat a Maori or other culture the same way I'd treat a European descent person so I like and need to know peoples ethnicity. I have no compass for interaction without it. It is very important.

The content of my selected conversation for a fellow pakeha will be different to what I'd discuss with another culture - its just fact. And its about ethnicity ie culture not colour. There are "pakeha maoris" that are European descent physically but Maori in all other ways. Likewise I know Maori who be white inside. And if I talk Maori or about subjects precious to many Maori with them or from a Maori value basis it would not compute.

I prefer to be pakeha to being European but then even that is a bit gebneric because it really only acknowledges the british descent / culture and I feel my kotirani (Scottish) heritage) has more formed my ethnic identity.

Happy to let Maori Kiwis help define me. They have a perspective & language - why fear it. New Zealand only gives location nothing more - pakeha indicates a history and I think dignifies us more. They've had to suck up a lot of our language and live with our views of them.

As Mrs Kendog says - Michael King - get some. Great journo and author, one of best books I've read was his one on Princess Te Peua (?spelling). It should be compulsory.

[Krusti]

We can quote true meanings of words all we like but the simple fact is that meanings change.

As an example, how dare people infer that homosexuals are happy by calling them gay.:laugh:

I am proud to be called a Pakeha. It gives me a unique place in our society which easily identifies who I am. No matter where I am in this world Pakeha instantly identifies me as coming from NZ. Proud of it.

[Grahameeboy]

Treat others as you would expect them to treat you regardless off culture etc.

We are all the same, people.

I am me who ever I am with, whether they are Maori, Indian, Asian etc.

[Krusti]

Having said that I would still rather be called a Kiwi, but if asked if I am therefore a Moari I will revert to Pakeha.

I don't want to be called, white, non maori, european or caucasion.

Makes a difference though for me that I grew up attending an eighty percent maori primary school where we did not care what we were called.

Man we even happily played maori against pakeha at lunch time!

And this snowy headed little Pakeha toured the North Isl a couple of times as a member of the school cultural group. Good guys those REAL country maoris.

Those were the days when we really didn't give a shit what colour we were.

TeKohanga Primary school rocked! :2thumbsup

[Krusti]

I'm 100% Kiwi...I am indigenous of this land.
Strictly speaking we're all Pacific Islanders as how can we be European living where we do? :sunny:

True, last think I want is to be aligned with Europe!:crazy:

[Grahameeboy]

Having said that I would still rather be called a Kiwi, but if asked if I am therefore a Moari I will revert to Pakeha.

I don't want to be called, white, non maori, european or caucasion.

Makes a difference though for me that I grew up attending an eighty percent maori primary school where we did not care what we were called.

Man we even happily played maori against pakeha at lunch time!

And this snowy headed little Pakeha toured the North Isl a couple of times as a member of the school cultural group. Good guys those REAL country maoris.

Those were the days when we really didn't give a shit what colour we were.

TeKohanga Primary school rocked! :2thumbsup

I know the only contant is change, however, it is a shame eh. However, we had race issues in UK a while ago and even before I left things had changed for the better as people settled down and got on with life, but then again I think the Maori issues are different because it seems to be about money, land, trusts when in your day that probably was not so prevelant but for political reasons, and it seems driven as much by the Govt as it is Maori, PC has become a biggy.....I mean the Treaty gives Maori Disabled a special mention under 'Disability' and the truth is they have more rights than my Daughter who was also born here.

I find that Maori I talk to have none of the issue we hear from the Media and Maori activists, which is interesting.

I bet you miss those Pakeha v Maori days. Sounds like fun...bring more of it on I say............

[Grahameeboy]

I'm 100% Kiwi...I am indigenous of this land.
Strictly speaking we're all Pacific Islanders as how can we be European living where we do? :sunny:

Exactly....I always state under 'Other' New Zealander for Nats.....PC crap again eh Sir.

I do not regard myself as European. I am a Londoner and proud of it but also proud to have a Kiwi Daughter.

[Sidewinder]

Pakeha, despite allegations about its origins, is a name generally used to denote a non-Maori person. No offence is generally intended in its use, so none should be taken.

so then nigger is a name generally used to denote a non-white persons? so should No offence be intended in its use? so none should be taken?

mmm i duno.


sorry not trying to ofend anyone just making my point

[Grahameeboy]

so then nigger is a name generally used to denote a non-white persons? so should No offence be intended in its use? so none should be taken?

mmm i duno.


sorry not trying to ofend anyone just making my point

Whatever happened to calling people by their Christian names....

[Sidewinder]

Whatever happened to calling people by their Christian names....

isnt it easyer to call everyone the same thing. like if you see a guy you go " oi boi!!"
and a girl you go " sup my bitch"

[Grahameeboy]

isnt it easyer to call everyone the same thing. like if you see a guy you go " oi boi!!"
and a girl you go " sup my bitch"

I don't say "oi boi" to guys??

[Sidewinder]

I don't say "oi boi" to guys??

oh what do u say then?

[Sniper]

oh what do u say then?

Its called english, my wigger. You should try it, conform and be cool. Its what all the hip people are doing these days

[Grahameeboy]

oh what do u say then?

Hello....................

[Sidewinder]

Its called english, my wigger. You should try it, conform and be cool. Its what all the hip people are doing these days

ok stand to.
wait you have been bad time for flag pole

[Sniper]

ok stand to.
wait you have been bad time for flag pole

Can anyone translate this for me? :laugh:

[Sidewinder]

Hello....................

mmmm that could work..
u seem smart

[Sidewinder]

Can anyone translate this for me? :laugh:

step it of by the left, quick march!

[Sniper]

step it of by the left, quick march!

Ahh yes, army jokes..... I havent heard those before

[Sidewinder]

Ahh yes, army jokes..... I havent heard those before

havent you? i was just trying to remember the words. about turn.

[smoky]

It annoys me deeply that all the literature I read refers to me as 'pakeha' and that I have to sit through lectures and be called 'pakeha'. Yes I really should make a stand to my classes, but if you saw the ethnicity spread, and then saw me you would understand! (The other day I was called 'petite')
....... This is one of the few times my sexy red hair gets the better of me!

I think I missed somthin here - How does being petite fit into the coversation?

Did you just add that in there to tease us males - You sexy red head petite girl who rides a motor bike, educated and .......:woohoo:
Hope your married, or have a boy friend.

[MSTRS]

I think I missed somthin here - How does being petite fit into the coversation?



You've not met Buffy?
She's 25st (at least), but standing beside her 'classmates', she's petite....:killingme
shit I'm for it now :spanking:
jk

[Trudes]

Having said that I would still rather be called a Kiwi, but if asked if I am therefore a Moari I will revert to Pakeha.

I don't want to be called, white, non maori, european or caucasion.

Makes a difference though for me that I grew up attending an eighty percent maori primary school where we did not care what we were called.

Man we even happily played maori against pakeha at lunch time!

And this snowy headed little Pakeha toured the North Isl a couple of times as a member of the school cultural group. Good guys those REAL country maoris.

Those were the days when we really didn't give a shit what colour we were.

TeKohanga Primary school rocked! :2thumbsup

LOL, I went to Manutuke School, sounds much like your primary, I think it was a 10% Pakeha to Maori split in the school, and we were all just kids eh bro!!!

[Ocean1]

Makes a difference though for me that I grew up attending an eighty percent maori primary school where we did not care what we were called.

Reminds me of when I were a nipper way down south, maybe 8 or 9 years old. My auntie was visiting and I'd been outside in the back yard playing with Charlie Wherapa. When I was called in for lunch and came alone she said "Isn't that wee Maori boy going to have some?" "What Maori boy?" I said. I knew the difference but I genuinely hadn't ever consciously made the distinction, he was just one of my mates.

A cultural psychologist once told me we need names for things before we can construct ideas about them, form logical hypotheses about manipulating the thing in question. I didn't necessarily agree with him then and I haven't changed my mind since, but I wonder to what extent cultural separatism engendered by inappropriate labels has caused what disharmony exists in NZ.

How should I define myself? I don’t usually find the need but if asked I guess I’m Male, Kiwi and (if pressed), Caucasian, in that order. The correct cultural tag in that list, (the equivalent to Maori) is Kiwi, not Caucasian (or Pakeha). The only document that needs to record the Caucasian label is my medical notes, and only then if I’m to be treated using a different budget criteria.

[jafar]

My understanding of the origin of the word "pakeha" is from the 1st world war. The Maori men were off fighting for the Queen in France leaving their women @ home. While the men were away on the other side of the world doing their 'duty' the local farmers (& others no doubt) were frequenting the Maori settlements & 'servicing' the women. As a maori settlement is/was known as a 'pa' these "gentlemen" became known as "pakeha".

loose translation is closer to Home Raider or Adulterer than anything else.

The term is derogatory & was meant as an insult

[Sanx]

Whatever happened to calling people by their Christian names....

I don't have a Christian name. I have a first name.

[Oakie]

I'm also uncomfortable with its' use, particularly on official documents. I always cross it out and write "New Zealander".

Yeah me too.

[McJim]

I don't have a Christian name. I have a first name.
I have a forename. Is Mohammed considered to be a Christian name?:rofl: and do little jewish boys have their forenames cut off?

[Skyryder]

Nah don't bother me..............it is my choice whether to take offence....it is only a name.

So is being called a cunt (taiawa)



Pakeha specifally denotes europeans. If any changes in the words meaning has taken place it now refers to New Zealanders of European orogin. The meaning of the word varies slighlty from Iwi to Iwi but a close aproximation of the meaning is that of someone who 'smells' like a pig. (poaka)

It is a derogatory epithet.

That meaning has not changed in Maori. I personally find the word offensive and have never refered to myself by it. If any changes in the words meaning has taken place it now refers 'exclusivley' to New Zealanders of european orogin.

That we still allow the word to describe a Caucasoid is indicitive of how little we acknowledge our own self respect.


Skyyrder

[Skyryder]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakeha

Interesting reading.

I read this and it does not tally with what Maori have told me.


Years back I worked on the Geothermal power project in the North Island and on occasion came into contact with Maori by way of members of our drilling crew.

One night at one of the hangis after rugby game the meaning or the word pakeha came under discussion. Now I can only go by what I have been told is the meaning of the word but I clearly remember the reluctance on the part of some Maori to discuss it. As I mentioned in my earlier post the word defines one who 'smells like a pig with a little variation of meaning from Iwi to Iwi and this is what I was told The most notable thing that I remember from that night is the general reluctance to discuss the meaning of the word in case I took offence.

I think Wikie is wrong in this.

Skyryder

[oldrider]

My understanding of the word Maori was simply used to describe collective things and was adapted by Pakeha to describe all "Maori", so who should really be feeling insulted?

Pakeha will do me and I don't care if you think it is insulting because like Te Urewera, once an insult, is now a name worn with pride!

So too are the descriptives, Maori and Pakeha, they are a distinct part of our history, hard earned and should be accepted with pride!

I for one, am certainly proud to bear the name "Pakeha"!

But make no mistake, I am a New Zealander above all else! :headbang: Cheers John (Pakeha New Zealander and proud of it)

[Animal]

Ngati Party! Hand me another beer, mate.

Fucking labels... I'd be delighted to see them all consolidated in that if you were born in NZ, your're a NEW ZEALANDER. If you emigrate from someplace, embrace NZ as your new home at are privleged to get NZ citizenship, you're a NEW ZEALANDER. If not, you're whatever the hell your passport says you are.

The hell with race/continental origin as a means of labelling people. I was born in South Africa, a country at the bottom of the African continent, so I'm defined as African. Because I was born in Jo'burg, my now-expired passport tells me I'm South African. My parents spoke English and I went to English medium schools. Therefore Afrikaans was my not my home language, so I'm defined as English speaking. However, I actually do speak Afrikaans and a couple of other languages, yet I'm still regarded as English. However, my ancestoral origins are Irish and Scottish, so I'm actually not English at all. Because my ethnicity is Caucasian, I'm also regarded as European, but the first time I ever saw Europe was when I was ten years old. In South Africa, I was grouped as White, although I change to brown when I tan, red when I burn, green when I'm sick and blue when I'm cold. I emigrated to NZ several years ago, so I'm an Immigrant. I paid my way and met NZ's entry criteria based on my qualifications and skills, so I'm Not A Refugee. I have NZ Citizenship, but because I'm of European descent, I'm a pakeha. (In lower case, unlike capitalised Maori, apparently.)

If I had to choose the tick box relevant to me on forms, it would be NEW ZEALANDER, because that's why I emigrated to this delightful country. If I wanted to be CANADIAN, I would've gone to Canada, or to the West Island if I wanted to be AUSTRALIAN. If I wanted to be BRAZILIAN, I... fuckit, let's not go there.

I consider myself privileged to be a New Zealander. Not White/European/Import/pakeha.

So there!

[Ocean1]

I consider myself privileged to be a New Zealander. Not White/European/Import/pakeha.

So there!

How refreshingly... foreign, dude. Gotta agree, the rest of the world see us as Kiwis, splitting it any finer than that is simply devisive.

[avgas]

My understanding of the word Maori was simply used to describe collective things and was adapted by Pakeha to describe all "Maori", so who should really be feeling insulted?
Most 'common' terms were adaptations as there was no "Maori" word for it.
Maori is a term which was imbraced regardless of where it came from. Pakeha was 'applied' without question or consultation. Meanings aside - would you sign your name on a form that you answered if you didn't know what the question translated to?

[oldrider]

Most 'common' terms were adaptations as there was no "Maori" word for it.
Maori is a term which was imbraced regardless of where it came from. Pakeha was 'applied' without question or consultation. Meanings aside - would you sign your name on a form that you answered if you didn't know what the question translated to?

Ah, that is a little bit different

I said "I am a New Zealander, above all else" I only sign forms that state that, or I alter the form!

I do not officially answer to "European" or "Caucasian" either but you may call me that if wish, without offence! (they have less meaning to me than Pakeha)

They are just historical descriptors, who cares, I don't.

For instance, the census papers, I altered that to read "New Zealander" but I am happy to be referred to as a Pakeha etc in person.

I can only control how I feel about me or the world and I can not control how you or the world feels about me!

But I can hope to "influence" the outcome by my behaviour! :niceone: Cheers John.

[mstriumph]

Have you read Michael King's The Penguin History of New Zealand?

sheesh NOW i'm confused - how did you get from pakehas to penguins?? :shit:



............ but seriously, dontcha think that ALL labels invite discrimination?

...... now, with sauce bottles or noodles, discrimination prolly isn't a BAD thing .... but with PEOPLE? hey, don't we have enough problems already without inviting more?

[scracha]

Pakeha, despite allegations about its origins, is a name generally used to denote a non-Maori person. No offence is generally intended in its use, so none should be taken.

Just like the word "nigger" being used to denote a black person?

[Hitcher]

Just like the word "nigger" being used to denote a black person?

Quite. Evil is in the mind of the beholder. And like any word, context and intent is vital. If the word is used to hurt or demean, that is the fault of the deliverer, rather than of the word itself.

[Aurora]

I just dont give a fuck, its another nickname in my book. I was always taught to show respect to people and it comes back tenfold. No respect = no attention from me.:cool:

[Aurora]

Quite. Evil is in the mind of the beholder. And like any word, context and intent is vital. If the word is used to hurt or demean, that is the fault of the deliverer, rather than of the word itself.

Fuck yea:2thumbsup

[mstriumph]

I have a forename. Is Mohammed considered to be a Christian name?:rofl: and do little jewish boys have their forenames cut off?

1. no

2. only about a cm of it ...... say the first three letters?

;)

[inlinefour]

Reckon it would only be a problem if you let it be. I like many others describe myself as a New Zealander and often tick the "other" option and write it in. However if someone wants to call me a Pakeha, I'm not going to loose any sleep over it. Life is far too short for that. :done:

[BuFfY]

I think I missed somthin here - How does being petite fit into the coversation?

Did you just add that in there to tease us males - You sexy red head petite girl who rides a motor bike, educated and .......:woohoo:
Hope your married, or have a boy friend.
Actually... I am single

Oh and it means they could beat me up fairly easily! So I choose my words carefully


You've not met Buffy?
She's 25st (at least), but standing beside her 'classmates', she's petite....:killingme
shit I'm for it now :spanking:
jk

I am 20.... lol

[H00dz]

Most Maori words are descriptive, and made up of smaller words to create a 'full description'
Pa - death, afterlife
Ke - foreign, different
Ha - taste
So one could not be faulted for believing that the word Pakeha refers to dead strangers that can be eaten....
This is where the derogatory nature comes in. White people are just a food source.

Hey there, This is an interesting read,it certainly made me think about the meaning of pakeha more and even doing some reading... being Maori I've never thought of the meaning of Pakeha as derogatory...But I can see how you could take it to mean that from some of the alternative translations.(food for thought).

My understanding from what I learn't from my Kaumatua (elders) was that "Pa" was a derivative of the word "Ma" being "white" and "Keha" an abbreviation of the word "Kehua" meaning "Spirit"

I suppose its lost in translation, as for the quote above I don't know if I agree with this ...... Does the word Catastrophy have something to to with a "cat" (the words clearly in there) OR If "Ha" means Taste does "ngi" mean underground stoned cooked oven ? (Hangi)

[NotaGoth]

Its as racist as calling someone a nigger. Simple.

[Calo]

Worse than 'pakeha' is 'palagi', IMO. But that might be because too often I've heard 'palagi' preceded by 'fuckin'. :mad:

[mstriumph]

Its as racist as calling someone a nigger. Simple.

i guess this post suggests that, to avoid possibility of inadvertant insult, the term should be avoided?

[Mekk]

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. - Eleanor Roosevelt

[MSTRS]

Hey there, This is an interesting read,it certainly made me think about the meaning of pakeha more and even doing some reading... being Maori I've never thought of the meaning of Pakeha as derogatory...But I can see how you could take it to mean that from some of the alternative translations.(food for thought).

My understanding from what I learn't from my Kaumatua (elders) was that "Pa" was a derivative of the word "Ma" being "white" and "Keha" an abbreviation of the word "Kehua" meaning "Spirit"

I suppose its lost in translation, as for the quote above I don't know if I agree with this ...... Does the word Catastrophy have something to to with a "cat" (the words clearly in there) OR If "Ha" means Taste does "ngi" underground stoned cooked oven ?

And so is this. I have always believed the term 'pakeha' to be derisory (I don't remember when I was told this, but it had to have been when I was a teenager, hence the 'always believed'). I don't doubt that there are many interpretations of the meaning, and that they will vary from one area/tribe to another. From your post, it could be asserted that the meaning is 'white ghost', which is not unbelieveable either. How many connotations could be put on that meaning? And as others have said, it is the way something is said that can impart derision or otherwise.
I choose to label myself as New Zealander. I believe that is an inclusive term, rather than one which signifies separation, difference or, indeed, rejection.

[roogazza]

I'm wondering if the people who use the word pakeha in a negative way would actually be on a forum like this? More than likely their reading level is that of a year 6 ? So its all a bloody waste of time anyway. Gaz. :bleh:

[NotaGoth]

i guess this post suggests that, to avoid possibility of inadvertant insult, the term should be avoided?

I'll avoid it when the use of pakeha is avoided. Works both ways. :)

[DMNTD]

Its as racist as calling someone a nigger. Simple.

You must be fucking kidding! :eek5:

[NotaGoth]

You must be fucking kidding! :eek5:

Look at where I've been raised as child? School teachers calling the white kids "white bread" and "ball head". Pakeha is just as bad. Just my thoughts. Others may not agree. Simple.

[Clockwork]

To be a pakeha do you need to be a New Zealander/Kiwi or just white?

[EJT]

Worse than 'pakeha' is 'palagi', IMO. But that might be because too often I've heard 'palagi' preceded by 'fuckin'. :mad:

mmm...I've heard Asians, Maoris, Indians, Islanders and Arabs preceded by 'fuckin' many times as well.

[McJim]

mmm...I've heard Asians, Maoris, Indians, Islanders and Arabs preceded by 'fuckin' many times as well.

Works for Moron too.:rofl: not you!

[MSTRS]

mmm...I've heard Asians, Maoris, Indians, Islanders and Arabs preceded by 'fuckin' many times as well.

There's your problem, right there. If only Herr Clark would pass a law to stop them fucking....:whistle::chase:

[Mekk]

I'll avoid it when the use of pakeha is avoided. Works both ways. :)

Responsibility doesn't have to work both ways. You don't have to stoop to anyone else's 'level' regardless of what it is that offends you.

[avgas]

I'm wondering if the people who use the word pakeha in a negative way would actually be on a forum like this? More than likely their reading level is that of a year 6 ? So its all a bloody waste of time anyway. Gaz. :bleh:
Oh thats a bit harsh - haven't you seen their Bebo sites.....ha

[avgas]

To be a pakeha do you need to be a New Zealander/Kiwi or just white?
Nah - just not maori, pasific islander, chinese or venetian. Everyone else is either Pakeha or Half Spanish white.
Maori is M5, L2 and B1.5 per 250ml of Dulux X10 Ebony.
I hope this clears everything up for people.

[H00dz]

I choose to label myself as New Zealander. I believe that is an inclusive term, rather than one which signifies separation, difference or, indeed, rejection.

:grouphug: Is not it the very nature of man to perpetuate derision as a means to identify ourselves from that which we glady accept as the "norm" and that which we find different and therefore "Threatening" .

(Whew did I just write that..... I think I'll need a lie down now!!! LOL)

Are we not KB'ers :scooter:"Brothers of the road"...SURELY the people that we refer to as CAGERS wouldn't think this word is derogatory!!!.... I'm mean its not as bad as nigger or honky is it...... YEAH RIGHT!!! aren't we all a little bit guilty of "the pot calling the kettle black"

[Grahameeboy]

Why do we get so upset about names?

I mean if someone thinks I am a Pakeha, or even a Wanker, it may mean something to them but does not have to bother me.........it is simply how they see things from their world.

There are surely more important things in life?

[crazylittleshit]

P.c bullshit get over it people............

lifes to short to give a crap. Be good to others and ignore all those that are not good to you....

[Pixie]

Pakeha, despite allegations about its origins, is a name generally used to denote a non-Maori person. No offence is generally intended in its use, so none should be taken.

Exactly how I use the words wog, nigger and kike.
No offence should be taken

[avgas]

There are surely more important things in life?
"Look after the details and the specifics tidy themselves up"
Many decades ago my family were considered settlers. That term was fine as it was considered temporary.
At todays day and age - i refused to be classed as something different that anyone else that is from her.
Its a simple enough concept - from USA you are American, from china you are chinese, from russia you are Russian.
Realistically if we were going to go down the segregation naming path - if one of us is Maori, and Maori means native to NZ.....we are all Maori. But then that ruins certain marketing opportunities for people.

[Grahameeboy]

"Look after the details and the specifics tidy themselves up"
Many decades ago my family were considered settlers. That term was fine as it was considered temporary.
At todays day and age - i refused to be classed as something different that anyone else that is from her.
Its a simple enough concept - from USA you are American, from china you are chinese, from russia you are Russian.
Realistically if we were going to go down the segregation naming path - if one of us is Maori, and Maori means native to NZ.....we are all Maori. But then that ruins certain marketing opportunities for people.

To me a name is not an important detail. As long as you know who and what you are it should not matter what others take is.

[MSTRS]

To me a name is not an important detail. As long as you know who and what you are it should not matter what others take is.

Aaaah....GB, you need to think about that a little more....

[Grahameeboy]

Aaaah....GB, you need to think about that a little more....

Why?..........................

[MSTRS]

Why?..........................

I thought you were intelligent (for a Pom).....:devil2:
Do you think that, for example, Charles Manson, Hitler, Richard Nixon..... worried about what others called them?
Really, it is what others 'think' of us that determines our place in society. Sure, one's own sense of worth is important, but that is a starting point only.

[Grahameeboy]

I thought you were intelligent (for a Pom).....:devil2:
Do you think that, for example, Charles Manson, Hitler, Richard Nixon..... worried about what others called them?
Really, it is what others 'think' of us that determines our place in society. Sure, one's own sense of worth is important, but that is a starting point only.

I was really thinking of 'names' not what we are called because of our behaviour which I thought was the main point of the thread and now we are bringing in Hitler......slight difference.........

If someone wants to call me Pakeha, Wanker etc I am not worried or offended. That is all I was saying.

Anyway, as you know I only answer to one guy.

[Hitcher]

191 posts to Godwin's Law. We're slipping...

[MSTRS]

I was really thinking of 'names' not what we are called because of our behaviour which I thought was the main point of the thread and now we are bringing in Hitler......slight difference.........

If someone wants to call me Pakeha, Wanker etc I am not worried or offended. That is all I was saying.

Anyway, as you know I only answer to one guy.

Yea but yea but....
A label generally describes (any)one's impression of the labelled object. That impression varies between individuals, but the labeller's intent can be of more importance than the labellee's acceptance of said label.

[Grahameeboy]

Yea but yea but....
A label generally describes (any)one's impression of the labelled object. That impression varies between individuals, but the labeller's intent can be of more importance than the labellee's acceptance of said label.

I guess it depends of the level of importance of the labellers intent which can be purely subjective to them............the problem you run into is that the labellers intent could be taken more seriously than it needs to be by the labelee who thinks it is them when it is not because they worry about it when in fact they have nothing to worry about but for the labellers approach.

Do you follow me?

I am not perfect, I know I will not please everyone so if I was to worry everytime someone took a swipe at me I would have a problem so I don't let it worry me..........as in worry....however, that is not to say that I will not think about it.

[MSTRS]

Ever heard the term 'Only dogs worry. And they get shot for it.' ??

[Trudes]

Ever heard the term 'Only dogs worry. And they get shot for it.' ??

Hey, WTF, don't shoot me, It's not my fault I'm a worry....:pinch:

[mbazza]

I'm also uncomfortable with its' use, particularly on official documents. I always cross it out and write "New Zealander".

Me too! I am a New Zealander! Cheers.

[howdamnhard]

I agree totally,whenever I have to fill out a government form I tick European other.




My sister and I have been having a lot of discussions on this topic lately. She has just started her teaching degree and is doing a paper called 'diversity'. I have encountered this horrible word throughout my three years doing my degree.
Does anyone else find the term 'pakeha' offensive?
It annoys me deeply that all the literature I read refers to me as 'pakeha' and that I have to sit through lectures and be called 'pakeha'. Yes I really should make a stand to my classes, but if you saw the ethnicity spread, and then saw me you would understand! (The other day I was called 'petite')

The fact is, pakeha was first used to call the Europeans 'white pig' or some other variant. Yet if I went around calling them horries or niggers people would do a little more than raise their eyebrows.

Please don't tell me I am the only one! This is one of the few times my sexy red hair gets the better of me!

[Curious_AJ]

what can't you just be called a "white New Zealander"? .. I'm not one to speak on the topic, as I'll get myself into trouble.. BUT, just an innocent question.. why do white Kiwi's get named a Maori word? surely it's some form of political incorrectness?

[howdamnhard]

Agreed,it's kinda reverse racialsm.

what can't you just be called a "white New Zealander"? .. I'm not one to speak on the topic, as I'll get myself into trouble.. BUT, just an innocent question.. why do white Kiwi's get named a Maori word? surely it's some form of political incorrectness?

[yungatart]

Why would you want to be called a "white New Zealander"?
WTF has the colour of my skin got to do with anything?
Why can't I just be a New Zealander?

[nadroj]

Why would you want to be called a "white New Zealander"?
WTF has the colour of my skin got to do with anything?
Why can't I just be a New Zealander?

Coz boys like pink?

[duckonin]

Easy to fix..Just don't sit in the class listerning to the shit....go out side sit in the sun it is great therapy...

[Curious_AJ]

Why would you want to be called a "white New Zealander"?
WTF has the colour of my skin got to do with anything?
Why can't I just be a New Zealander?

nah, i didnt mean it that way.. but on the census etc... they need to know if youre white,brown,yellow,black,pink,purple or green...

[Hitcher]

Sigh. The Census asks for information on ethnicity, not skin colour FFS.

They would be better to ask people to indicate if they are dead from the neck up.

[Curious_AJ]

oh, okay... well my father has always insisted on filling it in for me.. so SORRY Hitcher...

geez.. jump on my back when I was just saying something innocent... so "FFS"

[cheese]

IMO calling me a Pakeha is like me calling a Maori person a Nigger (I don't call my Maori mates that either). It's not a nice term in my interpretation and I prefer the term New Zealander, if you have define me from there call me a European New Zealander. Pakeha is such a loose term and I find that the interpretation can be turned derogatory very easily.

[Hitcher]

Fantastic. Don't you just love people who take offense so easily.

[Curious_AJ]

IMO calling me a Pakeha is like me calling a Maori person a Nigger (I don't call my Maori mates that either). It's not a nice term in my interpretation and I prefer the term New Zealander, if you have define me from there call me a European New Zealander. Pakeha is such a loose term and I find that the interpretation can be turned derogatory very easily.

cheers.


10charz

[Skyryder]

Fantastic. Don't you just love people who take offense so easily.

So if someone came up and told you in front of your mates that you 'smelled like a pig' that would not cause offence? Try calling a Maori a pakeha and watch the response.

Skyryder

[avgas]

Fantastic. Don't you just love people who take offense so easily.
I took afence once - did horrible things to the bike.
Pakeha is racist just purely in the concept that it is a name in a different language.
But then again what do the boonga's, gollywogs know :jerry:

[Tank]

So if someone came up and told you in front of your mates that you 'smelled like a pig' that would not cause offence? Try calling a Maori a pakeha and watch the response.

Skyryder

Thats what got Tami Iti started.:lol:

Despite the original meaning of the term pakeha which I believe was meant quite literally (people REALLY stank after months on a boat), its common usage is now something quite different and is not meant in a insulting manner.

However, I dont use the term pakeha, personally I refer to myself as a Kiwi.

[BMW]

I'm also uncomfortable with its' use, particularly on official documents. I always cross it out and write "New Zealander".

I am a new zealander to. I hate it being called that!

[mdooher]

Originally the word nigger wasn't offensive either...Now it is
If the term pakeha wasn't offensive originally it is certainly getting that way.

What am I on about.... the origins of a word have nothing to do with how offensive it is now. I am not offended by the terms "Fag" or "Nigger" or "Spic" but some people are so I would never use them in public. "Pakeha" is offensive to significant numbers of people so in my opinion it should not be used in public.

[Flatcap]

I prefer to be called a Honkie, mainly because it is aspirational

[carver]

My sister and I have been having a lot of discussions on this topic lately. She has just started her teaching degree and is doing a paper called 'diversity'. I have encountered this horrible word throughout my three years doing my degree.
Does anyone else find the term 'pakeha' offensive?
It annoys me deeply that all the literature I read refers to me as 'pakeha' and that I have to sit through lectures and be called 'pakeha'. Yes I really should make a stand to my classes, but if you saw the ethnicity spread, and then saw me you would understand! (The other day I was called 'petite')

The fact is, pakeha was first used to call the Europeans 'white pig' or some other variant. Yet if I went around calling them horries or niggers people would do a little more than raise their eyebrows.

Please don't tell me I am the only one! This is one of the few times my sexy red hair gets the better of me!

fuck yeah...
NZ'rs is what we are....were all one, all immigrants from somewhere
i dont mind my brown skinned brothers calling me it too much, as i call them niggers, maori's, blah blah, so long as they are cool with it.
what pisses me off is some PC feminist preaching to me about what i am and how i should act.
i can think for myself thanks

[Curious_AJ]

Originally the word nigger wasn't offensive either...Now it is
If the term pakeha wasn't offensive originally it is certainly getting that way.

What am I on about.... the origins of a word have nothing to do with how offensive it is now. I am not offended by the terms "Fag" or "Nigger" or "Spic" but some people are so I would never use them in public. "Pakeha" is offensive to significant numbers of people so in my opinion it should not be used in public.
hear, hear 10 fold!

fuck yeah...
NZ'rs is what we are....were all one, all immigrants from somewhere
i dont mind my brown skinned brothers calling me it too much, as i call them niggers, maori's, blah blah, so long as they are cool with it.
what pisses me off is some PC feminist preaching to me about what i am and how i should act.
i can think for myself thanks

yeah, people telling you who you are is just not on. :no:

[Clockwork]

Hmmm.... now you guys mention it; I never was that pleased with being called a pom!