View Full Version : Breakdown
Deviant
9th September 2007, 09:30
On my way to work this morning I was coming off the Gillies Ave exit, Newmarket, then moved over to the far right lane in order to get over the Harbour Bridge on my way to work.
It's only my third time commuting, but my confidence is way up and I was riding cautiously, confidently, and enjoying the experience of being on two wheels.
I felt my power start to drop while in 4th gear, revs at 5000 and stable. The speed slowly dropped off while the revs stayed high, I heard a couple of skipped cycles in the engine (I know nothing about engines so I'm just describing how it sounded to me), then it started to conk out with many skipped cycles and a fast loss of power/speed.
I dropped a few gears and tried to restart/rev while in motion, but no luck.
I moved right up against the far edge (I was on an overbridge, no emergency area!) and tried a few times to restart while flattening myself against the wall and waving my helmet to warn oncoming cars.
I tried to call a tow-truck, but just as I got through, a police car came along.
The cop was a really nice guy, covered me from behind with lights flashing while I pushed it around to where there was an emergency area. I managed to start it again, so he said to give it a go while he covered me from behind.
I got up to the next are with no passing lane, just before the bridge, and conked out again in 4th gear.
I pushed it to the next emergency lane, and the guy said it looked like an electrical fault.
I've only had this bike a couple of months, only been riding it for about 8 days on public roads, commuting for 2, so I'm wondering (a) if it's the way I ride/care for it (haven't really done anything for it, still so new from shop) and (b) if it's something I could have fixed on the spot if I had a little more knowledge, or if it's going to need to go back to Coleman's.
Now it's been towed home, thanks again to the cop for calling Causeway Panelbeaters for me- he really was a decent bloke, very helpful and concerned for my safety.
Coleman's is shut today, so I thought I'd ask here in the mean time if anyone has any idea what may have caused my embarrassing and dangerous predicament!
merv
9th September 2007, 09:36
Mate this sounds like running out of fuel and you needing to flip the petrol tap to reserve - are you up with that?
Zuki Bandit
9th September 2007, 09:38
Jeez Deviant, that sux dude. Like yourself, I'm not that familiar with engines, but I'm sure someone here will be able to give you some helpful advise.
Good luck mate!
arj127
9th September 2007, 09:46
yep, i would say you ran out of gas
spookytooth
9th September 2007, 09:50
as a general rule if its a problem with gas ya bike will backfire/ miss a bit befor stopping.If its electrical it will just die
Matt_TG
9th September 2007, 09:59
If it stumbled to a stop it could be fuel related, electrical faults generally stop things dead all of a sudden rather than spluttering to a halt.
You have checked you have petrol aye? Do you know about the petrol petcock switch, turn it to reserve and see if it starts (sorry if these are stupid questions). Pull the spark plug out and see if it's looking dry or oily. What's the battery condition like ... will it turn over ok?
Edit: Oh, I should type quicker
Disco Dan
9th September 2007, 10:05
Initially it sounded like the clutch, but by the end of your post I was thinking electrical/fuel!
Check your leads from the plugs and see if there is any damage - sometimes they can sit on the head and get too hot and melt in places etc etc
Check your coils for corrosion on the contacts.
Was it wet? ie if this was the first time the bike got wet/ridden that may have caused something to short out.
Give everything a good clean and check all your wires - take the wires off the spades and check for corrosion/breaks in wires etc.
...on the other hand, if it is pretty new then go back to the shop and start asking questions. They should come to the party and fix it (unless of course if its red baron then they wont care).
EDIT: another posibility re fuel related is a blocked fuel filter - running the tank too low/using reserve can cause gunge to be sucked up and block your fuel filter.
Deviant
9th September 2007, 11:39
Hey guys, thanks for the fast replies!
The fuel tank is barely used and I can still see plenty in there from when I bought it. I was concerned it may be fuel related too. Which direction is reserve? I haven't touched it since they gave it to me. It can be straight down, halfway, or straight up.
Filterer
9th September 2007, 11:55
Sounds like fuel to me, on the GNs down is normal, halfway way is off and up is reserve
arj127
9th September 2007, 11:57
i had a similar problem with a kawasaki not long after i bought it, turned out to be the fuel vent on th e tank was blocked, therefore not letting any petrol through to the carbs
Deviant
9th September 2007, 12:00
Damn! It's on normal and the normal tank is near full.
If it had been that the fuel switch was set wrong, I would have been relieved to have such an easy fix, but embarrassed as hell. It shouldn't run out that fast though even on reserve though, I have only done about 15km, and someone said reserve would cover well over 20km. The guy here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=36373) said it will do about 50km.
It is
Max Preload
9th September 2007, 12:22
Is there a PRIME position on the fuel swtich? I'm not sure if these are vacuum operated switches, but it's possible, in which case the diaphragm might have a wee hole of the hose might have come off.
There's not much can go wrong with a GN250.
Filterer
9th September 2007, 12:29
Damn! It's on normal and the normal tank is near full.
If it had been that the fuel switch was set wrong, I would have been relieved to have such an easy fix, but embarrassed as hell. It shouldn't run out that fast though even on reserve though, I have only done about 15km, and someone said reserve would cover well over 20km. The guy here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=36373) said it will do about 50km.
It is
Ok there is no "separate" reserve tank, it just takes fuel out of a lower position in the main tank.
Any chance you left the choke out?
xwhatsit
9th September 2007, 12:35
Is there a PRIME position on the fuel swtich? I'm not sure if these are vacuum operated switches, but it's possible, in which case the diaphragm might have a wee hole of the hose might have come off.
There's not much can go wrong with a GN250.
They're not vacuum operated, just normal gravity feed.
With the clutch slipping, I wonder what that was all about. Most odd!
What year is the GN, Deviant?
Deviant
9th September 2007, 12:42
Nah, I checked the choke first.
It's 2005, 17,000 km on the clock (although I just noticed receipt says 12,000, will ask them about that as I've done under 50!).
canarlee
9th September 2007, 12:46
i would say its more like a kill switch on the gear lever, it happened in 4th gear both times right?
might be that something is making a connection there?
i dunno, just my tuppence worth.........
Deviant
9th September 2007, 12:51
I was thinking about that too, but can't be 100% sure it was in 4th both times, I think first time may have been in 5th gear, 2nd time was definitely 4th gear.
When trying to restart, it took longer than normal, then finally came right but not for long, as though the fuel was being restricted or something... I'm really shooting in the dark here and I know more about the shape of the back of my head than I do about bikes and engines!
Surly Rubec
9th September 2007, 13:00
I run my GN without battery and air side covers. Serviceman once installed air filter intake wif vent facing wrong way. Material of my pants ended up covering intake, took awhile to figure out why bike would cut out, but then fire up again O.K. after.
Deviant
9th September 2007, 15:23
awful-truth came round and had a look at it just now.
The spark plug's head was covered in black soot, gave it a rough clean off.
Put some engine start in air filter, as it was starting poorly.
Suggested a better fuel, Mobil's 98 (Synergy 8000?).
Suggested a few other thing in general bike care and maintenance as well as possible causes.
A very helpful guy who went out of his way to help me get back on the road- it was very much appreciated! :)
I can't afford to conk out on the motorway again, so I'll take it back to Coleman's and ask them give give it a good look-over, as it's under warranty. I found a thread saying this model is made in China, and hence prone to issues with things not doing what they should, so while it's under warrantly I'll get it sorted out and try to get a good couple of thousand k's out of it to work out all the bugs and get them replaced with decent parts.
Sniper
9th September 2007, 15:27
Good to see its sorting itself.
Have you tried it now the spark plugs are clean and sorted?
Deviant
9th September 2007, 15:36
Not at high speed, which is where the problems were. I would say that was likely to be a large part of it, if not the whole reason, but I'm wondering why they were like that in the first place. Was it my driving? Using choke too much/too often (as he suggested it may be choke related)? Or a fault with the carb?
Hopefully can get an answer from Coleman's on Tuesday. Until then, no motorway for me!
Renegade
9th September 2007, 15:48
stink to here that you are having troubles so soon after buying yourself a bike mate, hope it all gets sorted soon as! :soon:
EJK
9th September 2007, 16:22
:lol:
So was it a fuel problem? Thank god I thought you would miss this Wednesday night ride ;)
xwhatsit
9th September 2007, 16:23
Well, there might be a blockage in the carb or fuel line. At high speeds the engine would flow enough fuel that the fuelling system cannot keep up, so it splutters and dies.
You don't ride with the choke on, do you? I don't think you do, but just in case you do, don't ^_^. It's very important -- especially with an air-cooled small-capacity single like yours/ours -- to give your bike a good warm-up. I start my bike, then leave it to warm up while I put my helmet/gloves/jacket/scarf on. By the time you do that the bike has been idling for a good while and should be warm enough that there is no need for any choke any more.
To my very limited experience it sounds like fuel blockage or water in the fuel. Take it to Colemans, they should do it for no charge I would think. You're right, the newer GNs do seem to have a few niggles that need sorting when you first get them, usually stuff like bulbs and chains, consumable parts. But I haven't heard of engine worries yet.
Max Preload
9th September 2007, 16:40
Bit of a double header I feel...
Firstly, low on fuel, then the plug was soot fouled by using the choke to get the hot engine running.
I've had a quick nosey but I can't find those new spark plugs I had lying around but I'll keep an eye out.
As I suspected, it does have a slightly wrong resistor type plug in it, and given the corrosion on the body it's probably been in there a fair while so well due for a change anyway. I've always found once they're soot fouled they're never quite the same again anyway. The one you want is an NGK D8EA not a DR8EA. Don't let anyone talk you into a Champion, Autolite or Bosch (Australia) etc brand plug - NGK are the business.
This (http://www.ngk.com/results_appOther.asp?otherMotiveID=226520&mfid=1) is for an earlier model, but I honestly can't see them being any different.
Anyway, fill 'er up with the best fuel the budget will handle, and next time it starts to die, flick the fuel tap onto reserve before anything else.
Deviant
9th September 2007, 17:11
Thanks again mate, will definitely try that. There have been two occasions I rode with choke on, but only about 20-50 meters just when I started it, will let it warm up first and turn off choke before moving from now on, and will look for one of those plugs too! I'm not worried about cost for fuel/parts, because the wrong parts could cost me more in repairs/time/towing. Today cost me over $150 in time off work and a tow truck.
I didn't think it was very low on the fuel, which shows how much I know! I've done two commutes to the shore and back, and three practice days/evenings of about 1 hour each, plus today's little adventure, and the tank was full when I got it. I didn't think it would chew fuel so fast!
Cheers anyway and thanks again, I learned a lot today. You really went out of your way to help me, not many people would do that for a stranger online.
ipod1098
9th September 2007, 17:44
does it have a kill switch?? (not sure with gn,s)
Grub
9th September 2007, 17:53
If it's fuel-related, it could be a couple of things ...
Here's one option: What sounds plausible is that the vent to your tank is blocked (spiders are really good at that). Off you ride, fuel is being sucked into the engine but a vaccuum is being formed in the tank. Finally, the vacuum of the engine just cannot suck gas out of the tank and it dies. You sit there for a while, the vent wheezes away and finally the pressure in the tank is equalised - it all works again.
Idea Two: If the bike has been sitting for a while and has picked up moisture in the fuel system then you'll have some in your filter and maybe also in the float bowl of the carby. Both will limit the amount of fuel you get.
Idea Three: If it has acumulated crusty deposits in the fuel system, they may have formed on the needle valve and be obstructing the rate of fuel flow into the bowl of the carby. What happens is that as you get up speed and load, the flow from the tank can't fill the bowl as fast as the engine needs it and eventually it starves.
Since it's under warranty, touch none of these things, take it back to the shop. It is almost certainly fuel-related and they need to give the system a good clean out.
sunhuntin
9th September 2007, 17:59
Thanks again mate, will definitely try that. There have been two occasions I rode with choke on, but only about 20-50 meters just when I started it, will let it warm up first and turn off choke before moving from now on, and will look for one of those plugs too! I'm not worried about cost for fuel/parts, because the wrong parts could cost me more in repairs/time/towing. Today cost me over $150 in time off work and a tow truck.
I didn't think it was very low on the fuel, which shows how much I know! I've done two commutes to the shore and back, and three practice days/evenings of about 1 hour each, plus today's little adventure, and the tank was full when I got it. I didn't think it would chew fuel so fast!
Cheers anyway and thanks again, I learned a lot today. You really went out of your way to help me, not many people would do that for a stranger online.
what i used to do with mine was reset the trip meter every single time i filled. wind it back to zero. i *think* the tank range is 200-oddk, plus reserve of roughly 20k [once i hit reserve, i filled asap, so have no idea how far it actually does go!]
twinkle
9th September 2007, 18:22
As I suspected, it does have a slightly wrong resistor type plug in it, and given the corrosion on the body it's probably been in there a fair while so well due for a change anyway. I've always found once they're soot fouled they're never quite the same again anyway. The one you want is an NGK D8EA not a DR8EA. Don't let anyone talk you into a Champion, Autolite or Bosch (Australia) etc brand plug - NGK are the business.
This (http://www.ngk.com/results_appOther.asp?otherMotiveID=226520&mfid=1) is for an earlier model, but I honestly can't see them being any different.
The new gn manual says to use a DR8EA, but the old gn's use D8EA. Why would they move to a resisted plug? :confused:
twinkle
9th September 2007, 18:33
CDI
CDI (Capacitive Discharge Ignition) for outboard marine motors is basically a refined version of the old magneto ignition system, except the points have been replaced with electronic circuitry. CDI is used on some (not all) late model marine engines such as Johnson and Evinrude, and some late model motorcycle engines. Do not use a "regular" resistor type plug on a motor with this type of Capacitive Discharge Ignition as this will cause misfire and poor performance. Rather, make sure to use a plug with an inductive type resistor (such as an NGK Z-type spark plug). Use of non-inductive resistor type plugs on these motors can create an open circuit within the spark plug (it will become a dead plug). Modified automotive racing motors also have a form of CDI, (such as Mallory, MSD, Crane and Accel), these should not be confused with the marine or powersports systems, please refer to High output ignition systems for more information.
gn's haven't moved to CDI have they?
twinkle
9th September 2007, 18:42
Inductive resistor
At the moment the spark jumps the gap it causes a high frequency burst of energy, this is known as RFI','1','1')">RFI (radio frequency interference). This is why resistor spark plugs were introduces in the mid 1960's. Placing a resistor within the spark plug suppresses the RFI','1','1')">RFI. Without resistor plugs in your car you can experience static on your radio as well as interfere with other sensitive electronic equipment. Some later model vehicles as well as newer Powersport engines must use resistor plugs for a proper "talkback" to the electronic ignition. Outboard marine Capacitive Discharge Ignition (CDI) such as used on some Johnson and Evinrude marine engines require a special inductive type resistor ( as used in NGK Z-type spark plugs). Use of non-inductive resistor type plugs on these motors can cause misfire and poor performance. For automotive CDI high output ignition systems systems (such as Mallory, MSD, Crane and Accel), refer to Resistor plugs for race engines in our racing and tuners gallery for information relative to modified motors.aha my manual says it uses electronic ignition (transistorized).
I have no idea what most of this means to be honest :dodge:
Deviant
9th September 2007, 23:43
What awful-truth has told me today and shown me fits well with the issues I've had. I'm going to find my nearest Mobil and gas up on that 98 stuff.
I'm also going to get the Coleman's guys to give it a thorough cleanout if I can, and ask them to show me as they do it so I can keep an eye on things in the future- if they'll let me!
You guys have me confused about the spark plugs now... I'll try to get a copy of the manual and see what it says.
Filterer
10th September 2007, 01:43
Well don't fill it with fuel, if your just going to get them to empty it! You won't want the old fuel going back in after they clean it out. My best guess is there is some crud in the tank / fuel line so it best to get them to drain, clean and refuel with fresh fuel
skidMark
10th September 2007, 04:13
sidestand switch......
twinkle
10th September 2007, 07:43
You guys have me confused about the spark plugs now... I'll try to get a copy of the manual and see what it says.
:rofl: me too. I'm just going to stick with what my manual said to use on my gn. maybe suzuki changed something on the bike... maybe the non resisted spark plugs gave some trouble in rare cases... i dunno :scratch:
twinkle
10th September 2007, 07:45
sidestand switch......
haha the new gn's don't have any of that fancy stuff, better off without it too i say :nya:
Grub
10th September 2007, 08:27
I'm also going to get the Coleman's guys to give it a thorough cleanout if I can, and ask them to show me as they do it so I can keep an eye on things in the future- if they'll let me!.
If the bike is under warranty you mustn't do ANY work on it as they can use that as an "out" for voiding your warranty altogether. They get paid by the manufacturer for the work, but only if you haven't messed with it.
Max Preload
10th September 2007, 11:58
If the bike is under warranty you mustn't do ANY work on it as they can use that as an "out" for voiding your warranty altogether. They get paid by the manufacturer for the work, but only if you haven't messed with it.
It's not new - it's a 2005. And even if it was new, that wouldn't matter as far as "voiding" the warranty altogether. The courts have already ruled that unless something you've specifically done was a contributing factor to any failure, it does not void any warranty under NZ consumer law.
In any case he's talking about the CGA as the LMVD warranties no longer exist since the Motor Vehicle Sales Act 2003 came into effect.
skidMark
10th September 2007, 12:39
haha the new gn's don't have any of that fancy stuff, better off without it too i say :nya:
mutter mutter suzukis mutter mutter
Grub
10th September 2007, 12:48
The courts have already ruled that unless something you've specifically done was a contributing factor to any failure, it does not void any warranty under NZ consumer law.
Of course, but who wants to take the dealer to court and scrap about it there. Like insurance companies, if there's a way out, they'll try it on. The say it's something you've done "... you should have bought it back ..." and you have to prove that you didn't.
Max Preload
10th September 2007, 12:57
Of course, but who wants to take the dealer to court and scrap about it there. Like insurance companies, if there's a way out, they'll try it on. The say it's something you've done "... you should have bought it back ..." and you have to prove that you didn't.
At the end of the day, it's really no biggy. Like I said, low fuel & choke on a hot motor = soot fouled. All they'll do is change the plug.
I'd be interested to know why the move to a resistor plug too... especially with a supressor cap.
twinkle
10th September 2007, 22:32
The gz250 uses a resisted plug, and shares the same engine with the gn250. There might be a clue there. No idea if it has a supressor cap as well though.
quallman1234
11th September 2007, 13:21
Kink in the fuel line?
Max Preload
11th September 2007, 13:27
Kink in the fuel line?
Nah - it's only short and there's good flow through the tap.
arj127
12th September 2007, 18:36
So whats the verdict Deviant? Had that bike in the shop yet?????????
surfchick
12th September 2007, 18:45
sidestand switch......
yeah was thinking same - ...
hope you get to the bottom of it dude - when i first started i was cursed with 2 front tyres blowing out on almost consequtive rides. was wrong size inner tube woes. was sooo gutted. luckily bugjuice and the boys looked after me... ahhh those were the days... hope you find out what it is, get a good fix and then have many a happy mile:woohoo:
Deviant
13th September 2007, 15:57
I made it to the shore!
I fuelled up on BP's 98 High Octane and took it for a burn.
So far, no real problems, but I'm getting some scary rattling sounds at start-up that I haven't been able to identify yet... like something is loose and bouncing around. This settles after the engine is going for a couple of seconds.
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