Migrating from a small bike to a larger one.

[caesius]

I've sold my first bike, my KR-1S. It was a great bike but now it's time to move on...to a bigger bike.

What I am wondering is what sort of challenges to expect going from a 250cc 2-stroke bike to, say, a 750cc GSX, GPZ etc etc. I've ridden a few bigger bikes "round the block" distances but never out on the open road. The first thing that springs to mind is the weight, my old KR-1S was so bloody light I could almost push it uphill. How hard is it getting used to not dropping a big bike for example?

Good thing is I'm now at the fun stage of scanning TM for new bikes with a real intention to buy not just dream.

Just thought I'd post this for any general migration caveats etc. Cheers.

[McJim]

Well for a start the power delivery is gonna be a lot smoother. You're not going to have that big lump of bhp thrown at you in the powerband like on a 250 2 stroke. Moving to a 750 4 pot should be fine - you'll find the bike feels a bit heavier at slow speeds though.

I moved from a 250 twin 4 stroke to a 600 twin 4 stroke. Everything just doubled - power, torque, engine braking - took about 20 minutes to feel safe around town and took about 2 weeks to feel comfortable on the open road.

[caesius]

Engine braking - now there's something I'm looking forward to...

[Disco Dan]

The throttle is a lot more sensitive... less forgiving of mistakes. The weight is less of an issue when your moving but will still take you a few weeks to get used to. And as McJim said.. 250-600 everything pretty much doubles - power, braking, weight etc etc. Once your used to a bigger bike you will wonder what all the fuss was about riding a 250 and you wont want to go back! Its like driving a volkswagon beetle around for ages then jumping into a Lambo!

You need to be ready though - if your skills are not up to it you will get into trouble real easily and really quickly. I strongly suggest you jump on a 600cc before trying the 1000cc + bikes. Ive seen people on here do the 250cc - 1000cc jump with huge egos and little brains - yeah ok they may not have killed themselves yet, but they sure have had many scares and close calls.

[MSTRS]

What McJim said.
You will have bags more torque, and the whole power delivery thing will be far more linear. The physical bulk and weight will be the biggest factor, in that just shifting your body will not affect the attitude of the bike as much as it would have on your little 250. Until you get the 'moves' down pat, you will find that you are having to muscle the bike into cornering etc, which will leave your arms and shoulders feeling sore. Practice will sort that. You will find the bigger bike feels more stable too.

[caesius]

This all sounds very nice, the biggest thing for me on my old bike was it felt more like a push bike with a motor than a "vehicle" - I don't quite know how to explain it, but yes I would use the word stable to describe what it didn't feel like.

[Disco Dan]

This all sounds very nice, the biggest thing for me on my old bike was it felt more like a push bike with a motor than a "vehicle" - I don't quite know how to explain it, but yes I would use the word stable to describe what it didn't feel like.

Then i would suggest a bike like the ZZR600 - the ZZR range are very stable, predictable bikes. The weight is not over the top either until you get over the litre mark.. then it jumps to 'monster' status :2thumbsup

Have you thought of getting a heavy 250? May help...

[caesius]

Then i would suggest a bike like the ZZR600 - the ZZR range are very stable, predictable bikes. The weight is not over the top either until you get over the litre mark.. then it jumps to 'monster' status

Have you thought of getting a heavy 250? May help...

I think my mate has a ZZR750, all good reviews from him.

I want to get something a bit bigger because I'll be riding from Wellington to Hawkes Bay regularly and I'm kinda sick of almost being blown off my bike by moderate winds. And it doesn't feel right traveling 300km+ on a 250cc bike.

[MSTRS]

Back in 1974, I went from a TS125 trailbike to a T500. An MTB with a motor to one of the physically largest/heaviest bikes of the day. I set off on a test ride on the 500, from LH to Masterton and back. To start with, I thought OMG this thing is awful, so much hard work. When I got back on the TS, it was "Fuck, what a toy"
I bought the 500.

[avgas]

This all sounds very nice, the biggest thing for me on my old bike was it felt more like a push bike with a motor than a "vehicle" - I don't quite know how to explain it, but yes I would use the word stable to describe what it didn't feel like.
Ah yes momentum theory.
My syggestion is if you would like to have the big bike feel, but still have the flickability - have you considered a big single or a motard.
They are a shit load of fun in comparison to the road haulers (600+ CC sport bikes), and are very light to throw around (rather than 'carefully lean' with a sport bike)
Also some motards i have seen wheelstand to 100k's fine and do an excess of 180kph! Not only that but they are very forgiving for people with little experience.
Just a thought

[McJim]

Since you are moving from a 250 2 stroke there should be no problem moving to a budget 600cc bike. the KR must have been putting out more than 50hp easily so it's comparable to a 400cc 4 stroke - controlling the power won't be your issue.

Trick is just take it easy and don't push it. You'll get used to the extra weight soon enough. Just don't try to run before you can walk.

[Jimmy B]

Some good advice in this thread.

My firm belief is that every bike is different so with this I always set some parameters around how I will ride a new machine for the first few thousand Ks. I do this because for me, it takes some time to work out what the bike is likely to do in any given situation. Have a think about a setting top speed limit, slower corner entry, smooth lines, stopping distance and stay on the conservative side for general riding. I also believe most riders, if they bin, will more than likely bin their new bike inside the first 10,000k or 12 months. It usually coincides with the moment that their new found confidence increases past the point of actual riding ability.

I reckon you will enjoy the step up, good luck and ride well.

[caesius]

Yeah I don't think power will be so *too* much of a problem as I spent the first week on the KR controlling that...

OK so from what I gather you can still get a 600 that doesn't knock the earth out of orbit with its weight - I think that's what I'm after, something big enough to get the long trips done, but still managable (I'm only 60kg btw!).

Cheers all tips

[Jimmy B]

Yes the step up in weight will not be a huge issue, you can drop a 600 as easy as a 1200, it will be more around how you adapt to and control the increased performance. I think a 600 to 750 will be great for the distance that you intend to ride and I would base my buying decision around what is available in that range. For example I would likely pass on a slightly tired but lighter 600 vs a better but slightly heavier 750 or dare I say it…naked 900. If you find several bikes on a par with one an other then its more about what floats your boat. This might be contrary to what others think but I reckon a bit more weight makes for a less fatiguing ride, especially over distance.

[90s]

How hard is it getting used to not dropping a big bike for example?

All really good advice here so far. The stability of a nice 600 is lovely after a small bike, and the progressive torque is beautiful.

At speed - even commuting speed - you won't really notice the weight increase after a few weeks practice.

In terms of dropping the bike and the extra weight there are some issues - parking on gradiants becomes harder, and I parked once at the bottom of a steep driveway where I could easily scoot the RG around but found the GSX and real handfull. So in the first weeks be careful stopping and look out for even surfaces etc. parking.

Sometimes I miss a frenetic 2T - but having a stable torquey bike is great esp. for the distance rides you are looking at. Tourers are heavier than sport bikes but much more comfortable over distance, and they don't really feel heavier most of the time. You can get entry 600/750 sport-tourers for reasonable money.

[surfchick]

...

You need to be ready though - if your skills are not up to it you will get into trouble real easily and really quickly. I strongly suggest you jump on a 600cc before trying the 1000cc + bikes. Ive seen people on here do the 250cc - 1000cc jump with huge egos and little brains - yeah ok they may not have killed themselves yet, but they sure have had many scares and close calls.

yes just think of the dilemas the americans face. no 250cc restriction...OMG the r1 or the blade or the 1048 einy-meany-miney-moe...

[NighthawkNZ]

You need to be ready though - if your skills are not up to it you will get into trouble real easily and really quickly. I strongly suggest you jump on a 600cc before trying the 1000cc + bikes. Ive seen people on here do the 250cc - 1000cc jump with huge egos and little brains - yeah ok they may not have killed themselves yet, but they sure have had many scares and close calls.

All good advise and agree with the above that yu go the 600-750 range first before a 1000cc + and like Dan have seen many acase making the huge step from 250cc to 1000cc

As for the weight, as suggested will be noticable in some areas... just think and watch ahead before you park up etc.

You have a slight longer wheel base so you may find that you won't be able to flick the bike into corners the same though with practise that will come and if you go to a bigger bikes ie 1000cc range then you have to work at that little more. But again as the others say it most likely will feel more stable. don't let that lead in to a false sense of security and make you over confidentant or cocky.

Ensentially the best advise is take it easy learn the quarks of the bike. Know your abilities and know the bikes.

[homer]

i think you need to get on a 400 have a ride and see what you think ....i had a 250 then got a 400 trail and then a 600 now a 1200 and you will get in to trouble going from a 250 to a 600 unless you have a lot of riding experience....I know people say the size dosent matter weight wise is true but when you r thinking of the change in to top gear and then realise your doing 130 140 km already and the next corner is coming up youll be in trouble .....compare this to your 250 when its hard out and then changing in to top at say 100km youll make the next corner anyway ......

[rwh]

What I am wondering is what sort of challenges to expect going from a 250cc 2-stroke bike to, say, a 750cc GSX, GPZ etc etc. I've ridden a few bigger bikes "round the block" distances but never out on the open road. The first thing that springs to mind is the weight, my old KR-1S was so bloody light I could almost push it uphill. How hard is it getting used to not dropping a big bike for example?

I got my 750 at Easter after not riding my 250 (4 stroke) for 3 months (it died). I had no problems (yet) with the power - yes if I wring it out in first it's a bit scary, but it's easy not to do that. I have however dropped it 3 times (only dropped the 250 twice in 6 months). The last one was mostly due to my own stupidity though (if you stall going down a steep driveway, push the starter when you're ready. Much better than trying to crash start in first ...)

It's probably worth noting that I'm quite short, so my short legs may well contribute to my inability to keep the bike vertical at low speeds (once it starts, it's hard to catch ...), but on the other hand I'm about twice your weight, which probably gives me an advantage in that respect.

I did try a 1000 before I bought the current bike (not a sprots bike though; one of these: http://cb-nchu.cocolog-tcom.com/photos/cb_photo/big1_05_7_1.html )
I had no issues with the power of that on my test ride either (though I didn't wring it out ...). I possibly would have bought it if I'd had a bigger budget; I really liked it (and it may not have suffered so much from being dropped, being naked).

Which reminds me - you're in Wellington? Visit Fergus at TSS in Alicetown; he was happy to let me try out several bikes (including the CB above, and a Moto Guzzi Breva) that he knew I wasn't going to buy, so I could have a better idea of what I wanted. They've always been friendly to me there, despite me not having bought very much from them ... So are all the shops in Wellington, but Fergus was the most forthcoming with test rides.

Richard

[bert_is_evil]

You will need to exercise a great deal of self control while you are getting used to it. Then a great deal after you are used to it and feel like you are bullet proof... Try not to get to excited about testing the limitations of your new ride for a while.

I find parking a bit of a nightmare on the hills in Welly, I can't push my bike backwards on anything more than a slight downhill gradient as only the balls of my feet reach the ground (and it's really fricken heavy) so have to chose my parks very carefully.

[McJim]

Reading through a lot of the replies it is becoming apparent that most people have little idea of what a KR1 really is. Many of the comments are only pertinent to moving to a larger capacity bike from a 4 stroke 2 fiddy.

A 2 stroke 250 is like a small uncontrolled explosion. If he can handle a 2 fiddy 2 stroke than it will require a very twitchy modern race tuned 600+ to make throttle control difficult for him. Controlling the power will not be his issue - changing direction is where the differences will be due to the extra weight of the bigger bike.

[caesius]

Reading through a lot of the replies it is becoming apparent that most people have little idea of what a KR1 really is. Many of the comments are only pertinent to moving to a larger capacity bike from a 4 stroke 2 fiddy.

A 2 stroke 250 is like a small uncontrolled explosion. If he can handle a 2 fiddy 2 stroke than it will require a very twitchy modern race tuned 600+ to make throttle control difficult for him. Controlling the power will not be his issue - changing direction is where the differences will be due to the extra weight of the bigger bike.

Hahaha I like this. Yes, it is true, I was almost lucky to stay on the road for the first week of owning the KR1 - not because I'm reckless just that power band. Oh god I loved it.

So yes, looks like the weight is the biggest transitional problem.

[Jimmy B]

Reading through a lot of the replies it is becoming apparent that most people have little idea of what a KR1 really is. Many of the comments are only pertinent to moving to a larger capacity bike from a 4 stroke 2 fiddy.

A 2 stroke 250 is like a small uncontrolled explosion. If he can handle a 2 fiddy 2 stroke than it will require a very twitchy modern race tuned 600+ to make throttle control difficult for him. Controlling the power will not be his issue - changing direction is where the differences will be due to the extra weight of the bigger bike.

Kind of agree Mc Jim because with both additional weight and performance comes a different riding style, one to be learned over time and I don’t think one style is any more difficult than the other, just different.

I do think there is a significant difference between 40Kw and 90Kw with only a 30kg weight gain, 2 stroke or not. Controlling the power will be an issue because it’s deceptive on a larger ride and there is much more of it, you would probably acknowledge that, so it’s the whole package. Some of the stock 600s have staggering performance so I still think the key focus should be around setting some limits and sticking to them until it all clicks into place. Concern with additional size for low speed stuff is a minor IMHO.

[MSTRS]

Hahaha I like this. Yes, it is true, I was almost lucky to stay on the road for the first week of owning the KR1 - not because I'm reckless just that power band. Oh god I loved it.

So yes, looks like the weight is the biggest transitional problem.

Riding a heavy(er) powerful 4stroke has many transitional challenges from what you are used to....
Physical size - Weight - Torque - Linear power - Engine braking

[McJim]

caesius, what is your budget going to be anyway?

There are 'bigger bikes' and 'bigger bikes'. For example I'm making the assumption you'll be going for something around 80hp - ish or will you be going for a race replica 125hp+ kind of bike?

If you're going for something with insane power then stay away from the peak power (10% from redline) for a while.

you had mentioned GPZ I think in your first post which to me gave the impression that you weren't going out to buy a 2005 onwards mid range sportbike.

So yeah - what price and what hp are you looking at here?

[avgas]

OK so from what I gather you can still get a 600 that doesn't knock the earth out of orbit with its weight - I think that's what I'm after, something big enough to get the long trips done, but still managable (I'm only 60kg btw!).

My recommendations if your concern is weight (go test ride these bikes - and you will see my point):
ER5
ER6 (n or f)
GSX500
400+ cc motards
GB500
SV650
Trust me man, if your comming from a smoker, a torquey twin or idealy a thumper is where you want to go so that you can still flick it in the corners.
600+ IL4's are great fun, but their sound is also deceptive and that makes them really easy to wind up where you shouldn't.
Test ride a thumper - they are very under rated bikes.

[avgas]

A 2 stroke 250 is like a small uncontrolled explosion. If he can handle a 2 fiddy 2 stroke than it will require a very twitchy modern race tuned 600+ to make throttle control difficult for him.
Likewise to be on the negative here i have also experience and know of other situations.
Ride a 2 stroke below power band - the rider has no comprehension of power at all (a power valve smoker below power band is like viagra looking sugar pills) . Let alone speed
and
Ride a 2 stoke in power band - rider gets a big bike, opens the throttle in first (or 3rd ;) ) gear and the torque lifts the front. 2 strokes have no low down torque remember.
Just some thoughts.
I once met a guy that owned a RGV250 who had never gone past 8,000 rpm or faster than 130.

[McJim]

I once met a guy that owned a RGV250 who had never gone past 8,000 rpm or faster than 130.

What a waste. I've had the missus RG150 bouncing off redline and reading 180kph! Keeps the engine clean :)

[dveus]

Once your used to a bigger bike you will wonder what all the fuss was about riding a 250 and you wont want to go back!

Not always the case. I'm seriously considering getting another 250. I miss being able to ride the thing around with the throttle on the stop. Infact if I didn't spend alot of time riding 2up I would still be on a "little learner bike".

[Jimmy B]

Not always the case. I'm seriously considering getting another 250. I miss being able to ride the thing around with the throttle on the stop. Infact if I didn't spend alot of time riding 2up I would still be on a "little learner bike".

I’m hearing you mate. A few months ago I went out through Clevedon and around the Coro Loop with another KBer who rode a ZXR250. We went pretty hard in places and the 250 gave up absolutely nothing in the twisties. Horses for courses I reckon.

[mstriumph]

you are in for an awsome coupla weeks if you are gonna test-ride all the bikes in this thread ........ sweet!! :niceone:

[caesius]

I'm not too worried about the weight of the bike I guess, I said a GPZ because my price range is only 2-3K. If I could find a XZR for that much I'd definitely buy it!

Sports /sports tourer (any thing's gonna be more comfortable for commuting than the KR1.

RE: riding a 2-stroke - yes, I rode it within 8-11 grand how it should be ridden. I looked like quite the fool thru town with these high revs but then again I didn't really ride thru town much.

It's not that I don't want a heavy bike, in fact it looks like I will be getting a heavy one, I'm just interested in a few stories people have had when they went through my transition. All very good reading thanks, especially McJim who sounds like he can appreciate the KR1s!

[avgas]

i went from the RG150 to an XS850....didnt like it 1 bit.
Felt like the equivelent from going to a mini to a mac truck.
But in saying that i would now consider a xs850 as i now have the skills to ride it.
Likewise when i got the GB400, i rode a 955i.....and actually found the enjoment lacking as it felt like a bike with the same accelleration, but twice the weight. But then that was why i fell in love with big singles. No weight, lots of acceleration, lots of torque, lots of low down power and flickable - just no top speed.
In saying that now, getting the ZXR400 was like "Holy fuck" as i soon found that little bikes can haul ass at top speed (180+).
The FZ1 was my final comprimise as a nice calm down, get a good job and ride with the big boys bikes. I found it good as it had more weight to it than the R1/K5/ZX10 - so i knew i wouldnt get over confident on it.

[Spuds1234]

I went from a light as GS250 to a GSX750 Katana.

The biggest thing I noticed was the weight and getting around at slow speeds. It took a week or two to get used the the weight on the shoulders and wrists. I would ride around town and I was eventually just go looking for a road faster than 80k just to take some weight off my shoulders.

Now Im all good.

The only thing I can suggest would be to use boots that have good rubber soles so your feet dont slip when your holding up the bike otherwise like me you may find yourself in trouble (nearly dropped the kat onto my dads 77 laverda). I have dropped my Katana twice. Unlike the 250 which I could hold up with one hand no matter what angle it got to, the Katana, when it starts go, its goes. Doesnt help that Im not the tallest person in the world and I cant flat foot the bike but thats another story.