Good wrecker's around Welly?

[jazbug5]

Hi, does anyone know a good place to go to for bits?

I just rang one place and spoke to the guy (not going to put the name, but it's in the Hutt) and he was pretty snotty on the phone. So I would like to see who else I can deal with instead- I don't take kindly to being treated like sh*t by people I'm going to give my money to. :sly:
Ideas?
(Oh, sorry if I posted this in the wrong bit, but can't find 'Tweaking and Tuning for Crappy Old Suzukis..!)

[White trash]

"Good morning, and welcome to ---------- you're speaking with jimmy. How may I help you?"

There. That wasn't so hard now was it........

[jazbug5]

But Jimmy, I'm a (blushes) cheapskate!
You sell shiny new stuff, and it just doesn't go with my unshiny old bike..!
:msn-wink:

[White trash]

You no risten, Ms Bug5. I source many parts for many machines.

Tell me what you need, give me a couple of hours, and you'll be laughing.

[Hitcher]

Tweaking and Tuning for Crappy Old Suzukis...
Just look for your nearest Suzuki dealer's listing in the Yellowpages...

PS: There's no apostrophe in wreckers, the way you've used it in your headline. Apostrophes have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with plurals -- they are only used to denote possession or contraction!!

Whew. That feels better...

[White trash]

Apostrophes have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with plurals -- they are only used to denote possession or contraction!!



Jesus! Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel about it :mellow:

[merv]

Hitcher, further to the "crap" thread, where else would we get to correct each other's English? Great site eh!

[James Deuce]

I know who it is!!

He's pretty unpleasant!

[jrandom]

PS: There's no apostrophe in wreckers, the way you've used it in your headline. Apostrophes have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with plurals -- they are only used to denote possession or contraction!!

I'm stunned by the fact that at more than twice my age, you retain so much ability to care. Perhaps it's the lack of toddlers and consequent surfeit of extroverted energy.

[Edit: The rancid little beasts discovered a new trick today. It's called "Sleep until 8:30 when Dad was relying on our usual early-morning howls to wake him in time to get to work for a meeting."]

Or... it must be that South Island trip. You put your cynicism down by the side of the road when you stopped to take a leak and forgot to take it back to the bike, didn't you?

Don't worry. You'll grow a new one in due course.

[jazbug5]

Hitcher;

I wrote Wrecker's as in wrecker's yard. Thought it might get your attention, though!
It is correct, so rrrrrrasp!
(I proof read everything we publish here at work... greetings, fellow pedant.)
:msn-wink:

[bungbung]

I just rang one place and spoke to the guy (not going to put the name, but it's in the Hutt) and he was pretty snotty on the phone.

That would be Mr Surly from "pails and pieces" then?

[White trash]

That would be Mr Surly from "pails and pieces" then?

Ha ha. Good one.

[Hitcher]

Hitcher;

I wrote Wrecker's as in wrecker's yard. Thought it might get your attention, though!
It is correct, so rrrrrrasp!
(I proof read everything we publish here at work... greetings, fellow pedant.)
:msn-wink:
If your (attempted) excuse were to hold water, then that would be wreckers' (yards) i.e. the yard of more than one wrecker...

So "rrrrrasp" back atcha!

[jazbug5]

Oh, bugger.

Out-pedanted. Knew it would happen one day...
off to sulk in a corner

:wacko:

[Motu]

I know who it is!!

He's pretty unpleasant!

I don't talk to chicks from wellington.

[jazbug5]

Errr (still blushing.. it's been a long day, I'm not myself you know, faculties a little impaired, I usually have a mind like finely honed steel trap, shuffle shuffle).
Anyone know how I can edit the title of this thread so I can end the shame..?

[rodgerd]

PS: There's no apostrophe in wreckers, the way you've used it in your headline. Apostrophes have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with plurals -- they are only used to denote possession or contraction!!

Whew. That feels better...

Except when they do.

(But not in this case).

[kerryg]

I'm stunned by the fact that at more than twice my age, you retain so much ability to care. Perhaps it's the lack of toddlers and consequent surfeit of extroverted energy.




Ah but you see it does not diminish with age. On the contrary, it grows. Go have afternoon tea with your aged aunt and you will hear (lots) about her bunions or what she had for lunch yesterday (possibly even about gerunds and misrelated participles too if she is a certain member of KB) and nothing about matters of importance. In the elderly and understimulated issues of real significance are substituted by the minutiae of their lives. The focus narrows along with the arteries.....so it is with Hitcher.......



:innocent:

[jrandom]

Ah but you see it does not diminish with age. On the contrary, it grows.

I am reminded of the maxim that complete enlightenment must always be present somewhere between the ages of 3 and 17. At 3, we have all the questions; at 17, all the answers.


Go have afternoon tea with your aged aunt

Difficult; my only aunt lives in Munich and is about ten years younger than Hitcher.

:bleh:

[kerryg]

I


Difficult; my only aunt lives in Munich and is about ten years younger than Hitcher.

:bleh:


Aahhh pedantry truly lives...... :not:

[jrandom]

Aahhh pedantry truly lives...... :not:

Not to say that 'ten years younger than Hitcher' doesn't still qualify as decrepit, of course.

[jazbug5]

That's it, guys;

keep posting in this thread so that everyone can witness my shame.
Diabolical.

[Deano]

That would be Mr Surly from "pails and pieces" then?

Understandable considering his location.....

[MikeL]

The focus narrows along with the arteries.....

It's not inevitable.

Or its not inevitable.

Take your pick. The apostrophe, however sentimentally attached we are to it, serves no practical purpose other than to differentiate the over-educated from the great unwashed, and is therefore irredeemably tainted with political incorrectness. Which is a good enough reason to keep using it.

And I'm now a bit confused about the original post. Has it been edited? Was it "wrecker's" or "wreckers'"? Both are possible.

And if you do find a wreckers or wrecker's or wreckers', you can tell if it's a good one by asking the following question:
"Where can I get a bar end weight for a 1989 Honda CB-1?" The volume of the ensuing laughter is a good indication of the quality of service you will encounter. Several seconds' stunned silence or a sharp intake of breath are not necessarily indicative of an unhelpful attitude. It just means that you will eventually be told to f*ck off with courtesy, empathy and a cheerful smile.

[F5 Dave]

I remember reading an article in an old dirtbike magazine (Rick Seiman aka Dr Knowitall or some such). He described the sort of customers who come in with a bunch of parts wrapped in an oily rag but have little clue as to what their bike actually is.

I would hate to work in a spares dept. I’m pretty sure 2 months of this would cause me to 'go postal' & cull :ar15: any customer arriving without a part number & half of those that did because they rang up to ‘check a price’.

Wreckers get this & half the clowns will make them crawl around a bunch of greasy bits to find a sidecover for an ‘85 gsx they have no intension of buying when they find out it's worth more than $20.

In the past I have been one of these customers, but have bought enough that makes it worthwhile. The problem is when the vast majority of the calls from private customers don’t result in a sale I can imagine you tend to get a bit toey spending too much time on the phone.

Is this good customer service? Well probably not, but not everyone is as even tempered as I’d like to think I am, (but aren’t).

I certainly wouldn’t want to try to scratch a living doing the job, but I guess the only thing I can suggest is to try to promote the impression that you are serious, time is money & while I get paid for every minute I’m at work, when you own your own business that is not the case.

Some people are moody. It doesn’t mean they are like that all the time, but that’s life. I turned up to get a WOF from another bike shop I go to to get warrants (it’s handy out of town & a one man band so I prefer to give him my money).
I was trying my luck to get it done on the spot. He got really flustered, “I don’t like stopping jobs in the middle” etc. I knew I was pushing my luck but I wanted to get the newly going YZF legal for the weekend.

He did it anyway & did cheer up, but I realised what it would be like if someone pushed their way into my office when I’m up to my eyeballs & asked me to drop everything to do something for them. I didn’t know he was that busy so his anger was a bit misdirected, but people aren’t perfect. I’m certainly not. In the end he cheered up (liked the bike, gave it a WOF) & repeatedly refused extra money I offered for being a PITA. I’ll make sure I buy some more stuff from there.

[White trash]

I remember reading an article in an old dirtbike magazine (Rick Seiman aka Dr Knowitall or some such). He described the sort of customers who come in with a bunch of parts wrapped in an oily rag but have little clue as to what their bike actually is.

I would hate to work in a spares dept. I’m pretty sure 2 months of this would cause me to 'go postal' & cull :ar15: any customer arriving without a part number & half of those that did because they rang up to ‘check a price’.

Wreckers get this & half the clowns will make them crawl around a bunch of greasy bits to find a sidecover for an ‘85 gsx they have no intension of buying when they find out it's worth more than $20.

In the past I have been one of these customers, but have bought enough that makes it worthwhile. The problem is when the vast majority of the calls from private customers don’t result in a sale I can imagine you tend to get a bit toey spending too much time on the phone.

Is this good customer service? Well probably not, but not everyone is as even tempered as I’d like to think I am, (but aren’t).

I certainly wouldn’t want to try to scratch a living doing the job, but I guess the only thing I can suggest is to try to promote the impression that you are serious, time is money & while I get paid for every minute I’m at work, when you own your own business that is not the case.

Some people are moody. It doesn’t mean they are like that all the time, but that’s life. I turned up to get a WOF from another bike shop I go to to get warrants (it’s handy out of town & a one man band so I prefer to give him my money).
I was trying my luck to get it done on the spot. He got really flustered, “I don’t like stopping jobs in the middle” etc. I knew I was pushing my luck but I wanted to get the newly going YZF legal for the weekend.

He did it anyway & did cheer up, but I realised what it would be like if someone pushed their way into my office when I’m up to my eyeballs & asked me to drop everything to do something for them. I didn’t know he was that busy so his anger was a bit misdirected, but people aren’t perfect. I’m certainly not. In the end he cheered up (liked the bike, gave it a WOF) & repeatedly refused extra money I offered for being a PITA. I’ll make sure I buy some more stuff from there.

Good rant, Dave.

But I actually enjoy working in a busy spares dept. The stress makes the Steinlager taste all the better.

In fact, I think I'll have one in about ten minutes.

[F5 Dave]

Good rant, Dave.

But I actually enjoy working in a busy spares dept. The stress makes the Steinlager taste all the better.

In fact, I think I'll have one in about ten minutes.
Well something better work, I’ve never found anything to make the stuff taste any better. :Pokey:

[James Deuce]

Good points Dave, but consider this.

Investigating the as yet "unnamed" one's web site for parts, I happened upon a donor bike that matched my requirements. I got my manual, got the part numbers and descriptions, and placed my call. I was told, "I can't be bothered dealing with you".

So I said, "Oh, sorry, are you a bit busy at the moment"?

He said, "Why won't you people f__king leave me alone and stop wasting my time".

A quick phone call to Malcolm Kirby at Econohonda netted me the disk carriers, OEM disks, and front axle I was after. They were all new and it cost me $512. Now Malcolm has the right attitude in my book, and he will also tell you if he can't help, but without the operative phrase, "F__k off n00b, I pwn Joo."

[White trash]

Well something better work, I’ve never found anything to make the stuff taste any better. :Pokey:

Best Lager in the world, mate. Saw it on "Queer eye for the straight guy" the other night. :buggerd:

[White trash]

He said, "Why won't you people f__king leave me alone and stop wasting my time".



WTF? You must be joking! He didn't say that, you're talking plop!
How could anyone in the customer service industry say that. Unless it's a fence for dealing drugs.

[F5 Dave]

Ouch. My only guess is he mistook your voice for one of the regular wasters. Either that or pre coffee.

[Hitcher]

Not to say that 'ten years younger than Hitcher' doesn't still qualify as decrepit, of course.
Damned with faint praise?

[Kickaha]

Ouch. My only guess is he mistook your voice for one of the regular wasters. Either that or pre coffee.


Yeah I've done that before,only to find it wasn't the guy I thought it was,some serious grovelling was required to fix that stuff up :o

[jrandom]

Damned with faint praise?

Praised with faint damnation, I'm afraid.

[jrandom]

Yeah I've done that before,only to find it wasn't the guy I thought it was,some serious grovelling was required to fix that stuff up :o

You think *that's* good?

I telephoned a KBer at work today, asked for 'im by name, I hear 'rustle rustle' and then his dulcet tones belt down the line, "Hi, honey...!"

I gotta work on my soprano.

[toads]

You think *that's* good?

I telephoned a KBer at work today, asked for 'im by name, I hear 'rustle rustle' and then his dulcet tones belt down the line, "Hi, honey...!"

I gotta work on my soprano.

or mebbe he'd been watching queer eye for the straight guy too!! lol

Coming back to the subject of rude customer service at the local wreckers/dismantlers, I have found it to be quite common for males in the automotive industry to be quite rude to females generally. They tend to be either, quite condescending not expecting any kind of understanding of mechanical issues at all, or alternatively completely non compliant, one guy refused to order a gasket set until he had spoken to Pete! The upshot of that was, I wouldn't buy anything from their shop even if it was the last one in Gisborne, ( the gasket set was for an outboard motor).
Computers techs tend to be similar when speaking to women also, I have discovered, and there are cavemen everywhere. I hope you got your bits sorted Jazbug, twas it the indicator?, I have had a lot of gn indicators go west :bye:

[James Deuce]

Computers techs tend to be similar when speaking to women also, I have discovered, and there are cavemen everywhere.

Umm, no, we talk to everyone like that. Like the Comic Book Guy on the Simpsons, talking down to someone about our area of speciality is the only time we feel superior to anyone.

[vifferman]

I've had very little success with trying to get parts from wreckers for the bikes I've owned; you'd think they'd never wrecked a VFR750 or VTR1000. Mebbe I was the only person who ever crashed one?

I did OK with the VF500, in both Christchurch and Tauranga. The first time, my front right disk was knackered, and the guy I talked to at the brake place suggested buying secondhand from a wrecker. First one I went to, he said, "Nah - never had anything like that!". Second one said, "Hmmmm... I reckon an NS250 one'll fit that." And he was right; obviously knew his bikes. Plus he checked them for trueness on a steel plate, discarding several before finding a couple of gooduns. At $80 for two, it was a good deal.
The wreckers at Mt Maunganui managed to find me a mirror for the VF. I can't remember if it was him or me that realised a CBX (?) one fitted, but that was a bargain too.

I suspect that fronting up and looking through boxes of bits or whatever is often more fruitful than phoning and making enquiries, and emailing is an absolute joke (apart from Victorian Motorcycle Wreckers, who were really on the ball).

The best service I've had was from Mt Eden M/C, when Mike rang around, including phoning his contact in Japan to find a part for me, and was honest enough to recommend I go elsewhere for a part when his price was higher. I always get the impression from him that customer service is more important making a buck. :niceone:

Conversely, the feedback from many wreckers I've dealt with seems to convey the distinct impression that customers are a bloody nuisance, and the suspicious unfriendly attitude to your enquiries is almost as if you've interrupted them in the middle of some nefarious and dodgy activity.:blink:

[Mr Skid]

I dealt with Spencer at Atomic Bike Wreckers yesterday, and he seems like a top bloke.

Emailed him a description of the part I was looking for, and he emailed back a pic of the part to confirm we were talking about the same thing. Went to pick it up and spent a few minutes discussing streetfighter potential for the bike, and he helped me price out the options.

Best service I've found so far from a wreckers.

[toads]

Umm, no, we talk to everyone like that. Like the Comic Book Guy on the Simpsons, talking down to someone about our area of speciality is the only time we feel superior to anyone.

Only the males ones do Jim, sorry but I never talk down to anyone no matter how thick they are!!

[James Deuce]

Only the males ones do Jim, sorry but I never talk down to anyone no matter how thick they are!!
It was a JOKE.

I've worked in this industry for years, and always spend time establishing the knowledge base of the person on the other end of the phone, or the person I am dealing with face to face. I often spend time discussing why I don't think someone is thick if they don't know anything about computers, though a large part of that problem could be fixed if both employers and users took responsibility for training and learning.

You're either yanking my chain or generalising horribly, and I for one am a bit tired that it is alright to mercilessly take the mickey out of males and IT techs, but heaven (and a lawyer and large bank account) help you if you dare to publicly make a general comment about "Wyminkind" in jest.

[jazbug5]

Wymin...

(c'mon, someone..!)

:Pokey:

[Ms Piggy]

Wymin...

(c'mon, someone..!)

:Pokey:
Well Jim I know you was jokin' but wyminkind have been pretty much f*cked over for a number of years and we still are. Still no equity in pay :angry:

But I'm a man fan & I also think there are a lot more confusing messages out there for man and wyminkind generally. A lot of the time boys are chided for being too macho and male and not senstive enough and wymin are called aggressive or hard hearted for not being nurturing and loving. And before you point it out - I know I am generalising and I also know things are changing, ever so slooooooowly changing. I get confused about it all, I really do.

Oooo - I think this might be :Offtopic: Sorry.

[toads]

It was a JOKE.

I've worked in this industry for years, and always spend time establishing the knowledge base of the person on the other end of the phone, or the person I am dealing with face to face. I often spend time discussing why I don't think someone is thick if they don't know anything about computers, though a large part of that problem could be fixed if both employers and users took responsibility for training and learning.

You're either yanking my chain or generalising horribly, and I for one am a bit tired that it is alright to mercilessly take the mickey out of males and IT techs, but heaven (and a lawyer and large bank account) help you if you dare to publicly make a general comment about "Wyminkind" in jest.

Yeah Jim, I'm yanking ya chain just a little, but suffice it to say, I get a lot of women clients based on the FACT they feel intimidated and belittled by male computer techs, it's something I'd encounter at least once a week.
I'm sure at the end of the day it is something that won't go away, Pete's a mechanic and often gets me to order parts. I've found it's predominantly something men tend to do more in the 40-60 age group than the younger ones.

[Hitcher]

Still no equity in pay
(Friday afternoon, rises like a trout to a fly)

Explain yourself please, CSL!

[Ms Piggy]

(Friday afternoon, rises like a trout to a fly)

Explain yourself please, CSL!

Ok Mr H - basically overall women still get paid around 85% less than men.

This is looking at our hourly rate (without overtime), not average weekly income. We looked at some stats a couple of weeks ago in my Social Policy lecture.

[jrandom]

Ok Mr H - basically overall women still get paid around 85% less than men.

If I hadn't had three pints at lunchtime, I'm sure I'd have something witty and insightful to contribute here.

[Hitcher]

Ok Mr H - basically overall women still get paid around 85% less than men.

This is looking at our hourly rate (without overtime), not average weekly income. We looked at some stats a couple of weeks ago in my Social Policy lecture.
Is this an "apples with apples" comparison i.e. what female plumbers get paid compared with male plumbers; female accountants with male accountants; or a per capita figure?

[F5 Dave]

Stats are interesting but rarely tell the whole story, for example it is an inalienable truth that women often leave the workforce to have children. When they re enter they will be doing so with a big gap in their experience & sheer time in the workforce.

I'm not saying genetics are fair, just it happens this way.

So over a whole then yes the levels are bound to be less.

I think for this reason whether it be fair or not, the only sensible measurement would be if these women who left the workforce were not included in the statistics then perhaps a truer figure would emerge?

I don’t know I’m just suggesting & keeping the brain ticking over

[Ms Piggy]

Is this an "apples with apples" comparison i.e. what female plumbers get paid compared with male plumbers; female accountants with male accountants; or a per capita figure?
No it's not.

It's just a comparison of men and women in the workplace, not the same professions. So per capita I guess. I can get some more solid data for you if you like. I'd need to email my lecturer & then I can PM you with the info. It bummed me out a bit actually.

Basically what we were discussing is that b/c women generally go into caring professions ie. nurses, teachers (I think), social workers (my career eventually) and a few others I can't recall, those professions are paid less. It's an argument of what is percieved as "womens work" being undervalued.

[Ms Piggy]

Stats are interesting but rarely tell the whole story, for example it is an inalienable truth that women often leave the workforce to have children. When they re enter they will be doing so with a big gap in their experience & sheer time in the workforce.

Which is part of the whole argument. Why should women be penalised for choosing to leave work and have a family? It kinda reinforces the devaluing of a womans role in society. Thats how the argument goes anyway.

I think that makes sense. Tell me if it doesn't.

[F5 Dave]

No it's not.

It's just a comparison of men and women in the workplace, not the same professions. So per capita I guess. I can get some more solid data for you if you like. I'd need to email my lecturer & then I can PM you with the info. It bummed me out a bit actually.

Basically what we were discussing is that b/c women generally go into caring professions ie. nurses, teachers (I think), social workers (my career eventually) and a few others I can't recall, those professions are paid less. It's an argument of what is percieved as "womens work" being undervalued.

Well there are an awful lot of trades people (typically men) who are easily out earned by their office dwelling womenfolk.

As an electronics technician some years back it was disheartening to find out even though we were making the stuff making the money we were out comprehensively out earned by the secretarial staff.

[toads]

Hi Hitcher, the stats were in our local rag the other day with regard to the financial quarter, ended june, statistically a woman working in the same job doing the same hours will earn only 85% of the amount her male counterpart will.

[James Deuce]

Which is part of the whole argument. Why should women be penalised for choosing to leave work and have a family? It kinda reinforces the devaluing of a womans role in society. Thats how the argument goes anyway.

I think that makes sense. Tell me if it doesn't.
If I left the IT world for 5 years, I wouldn't expect to go back in at the level I left at. Actually I wouldn't expect to be able to get back in at all without significant expenditure and study, which highlights how unfair it is to have legislation in place to protect jobs left open for reasons of "maternity" leave. I have a family friend whose wife died in childbirth, who has been unable to re-enter his previous employment, because there is no such thing as paternity leave. Denied due to pedantry.

Social Workers, Nurses, and Midwives have things a great deal better here in NZ that the UK. Over there banks class those roles as vocations, which means you can't get a mortgage, or borrow significant amounts of money. Hmmm maybe that's a good thing. However their North American counterparts (US, and Canada) have significantly better rates of pay and conditions, ignoring currency conversions, which are meaningless when comparing standards of living for the top 20 OECD countries.

NZ's top corporate executive is a woman and gets paid more than $2million a year. The PM is a woman and much of the cabinet is female and earn 6 figure salaries. If the data your lecturer has is more than 3 years old, it may need revising. There are a large number of women where I work who are paid substantially more than me and my colleagues, who are largely male I might add, and have positions of "authority".

Way OT now.

Damn these thread hijackers.

Sorry everyone.

[Ms Piggy]

Well there are an awful lot of trades people (typically men) who are easily out earned by their office dwelling womenfolk.

As an electronics technician some years back it was disheartening to find out even though we were making the stuff making the money we were out comprehensively out earned by the secretarial staff.

Yeah we were talking more about jobs requiring the same skill set. Not that I'm undervaluing trades people at all. But what a computer guy gets as opposed to a nurse sorta thing. We didn't discuss secretarial work or trades people.

What it boils down to is I'll be under paid b/c I've chosen to go into a career that is predominantly women and under paid and under valued. Not doing a whinge, just stating a fact.

Ok - stop distracting me! I need to study! So I can be underpaid! :rolleyes:

[Hitcher]

No it's not.

It's just a comparison of men and women in the workplace, not the same professions. So per capita I guess. I can get some more solid data for you if you like. I'd need to email my lecturer & then I can PM you with the info. It bummed me out a bit actually.

Basically what we were discussing is that b/c women generally go into caring professions ie. nurses, teachers (I think), social workers (my career eventually) and a few others I can't recall, those professions are paid less. It's an argument of what is percieved as "womens work" being undervalued.
Be wary of these sorts of general comparisons. Teresa Gattung has probably single-handedly closed the gap!

Also beware of drawing "equity" comparisons between professions dominated by women and those that aren't.

Also beware of "social engineering" of salaries, as this comes with all sorts of costs. While market forces may be an imperfect model, it is vastly superior to any alternative -- such as a Government agency that may be required to make calls about the relative values of one profession versus another.

I don't support the Government paying parents to have children in the form of paid parental leave. If individual employers want to do that, that's fine --and many do. But Government intervention is discriminatory -- you have to be in work to qualify and self-employed people are ineligible. Also the Government does not have a magic tim-tam packet from which it extracts money. We all pay for this as taxpayers and most of us would prefer to pay less tax and have less Government in our lives.

At face value some things may appear unjust, and they probably are -- a bit like having to pass exams to get qualifications!

[F5 Dave]

Why should women be penalised? Well as I said I don’t think its fair, but to alter this ‘inequity’ then it would mean that companies would have to be coerced into hiring staff with less experience & a patchy work history at a higher rate than the equivalent person who did not stop work.

In the real world this isn’t going to happen. People are hired for their ability, experience & how well they interview.

Again I didn’t say it was fair, but riddle me this. Why is it that engineers who develop the products are vastly underpaid compared to the sales people who know little about the technology but have a knack for getting people to buy stuff.

I’m in a good job now but I still get out-earned by the (new) car salespeople down the road. I don’t think this is fair, but I can’t change it.

[Hitcher]

Hi Hitcher, the stats were in our local rag the other day with regard to the financial quarter, ended june, statistically a woman working in the same job doing the same hours will earn only 85% of the amount her male counterpart will.
I missed seeing those. I have some difficulty rationalising how this can be so, given my experience in a range of public and private sector organisations.

[Ms Piggy]

If I left the IT world for 5 years, I wouldn't expect to go back in at the level I left at.

Social Workers, Nurses, and Midwives have things a great deal better here in NZ that the UK. Over there banks class those roles as vocations, which means you can't get a mortgage, or borrow significant amounts of money. Hmmm maybe that's a good thing. However their North American counterparts (US, and Canada) have significantly better rates of pay and conditions, ignoring currency conversions, which are meaningless when comparing standards of living for the top 20 OECD countries.

NZ's top corporate executive is a woman and gets paid more than $2million a year. The PM is a woman and much of the cabinet is female and earn 6 figure salaries. If the data your lecturer has is more than 3 years old, it may need revising. There are a large number of women where I work who are paid substantially more than me and my colleagues, who are largely male I might add, and have positions of "authority".

Way OT now.

Damn these thread hijackers.

Sorry everyone.
Ok I'll check back to my lecturer, I thought it was up to date.

The point is Jim I don't ive in the UK I live in N.Z, so what happens there is relative to me. Yes I've heard the argument about lots of women being leaders now but I think the point of our discussion was overall women still get paid less b/c typical women's work i.e. caring professions are undervalued overall. An interesting point our lecturer made was that now more men are becoming nurses the pay rates for nurses are increasing. Anyway - sorry about the hijack Jazbug! :Oops: Really must go study!!!

[James Deuce]

Yeah we were talking more about jobs requiring the same skill set. Not that I'm undervaluing trades people at all. But what a computer guy gets as opposed to a nurse sorta thing. We didn't discuss secretarial work or trades people.

What it boils down to is I'll be under paid b/c I've chosen to go into a career that is predominantly women and under paid and under valued. Not doing a whinge, just stating a fact.

Ok - stop distracting me! I need to study! So I can be underpaid! :rolleyes:

If my wife, a Nurse, went back to work full time, she would earn 95% of what I earn, with penals on top pushing her past my earning potential. Contrary to popular opinion IT is NOT well-paid, and has not kept pace with cost of living increases for the last five years. My brother is a truck driver and earns more than me, so I think there are a lot of assumptions out there that need dispelling.

[Ms Piggy]

Also beware of drawing "equity" comparisons between professions dominated by women and those that aren't.

Why?

Arrrghh - would love to stay and chat but must study. This sort of discussion and way of thinking is all new to me so I may not be as articulate or as full of information as you guys but thanks for the interesting distraction. I'm trying to learn to thinking more critically. Basically the more I'm told the less I know!

[Ms Piggy]

If my wife, a Nurse, went back to work full time, she would earn 95% of what I earn, with penals on top pushing her past my earning potential. Contrary to popular opinion IT is NOT well-paid, and has not kept pace with cost of living increases for the last five years. My brother is a truck driver and earns more than me, so I think there are a lot of assumptions out there that need dispelling.
Yes true Jim. As I say it was a discussion in a lecture. i.e. 2hours out of my busy life. I realise nurses are horribly underpaid - part of my pint actually.

Hmmmm - maybe I should go back to driving trucks ;) Over and out, that's a BIG 10-4.

[F5 Dave]

Nice chatting CSL, learning is always good. Just listen to what people say, but don’t listen to what people say.

By this I mean people are often wrong, myself included but with conviction sell you their story. Always keep asking questions, more might be revealed than initially evident or “common knowledge”, an oxymoron if ever there was one.

[jrandom]

Always keep asking questions, more might be revealed than initially evident or “common knowledge”, an oxymoron if ever there was one.

I've found personally that starting out by assuming everyone else is an idiot is an excellent life strategy.

On the one hand, you'll usually be right.

On the other, when you're wrong, it will provide valuable lessons in humility.

Also, you will never be overburdened with friends, leaving you with more time to get on with the important things in life, like drinking Scotch alone on a Friday night with a good book.

[Hitcher]

Why?
OK, let's look at something like Police (male dominated) versus Nurses (female dominated). Both do worthy work for society, work rostered shifts, etc but should they be paid the same?

"Equity" in this context requires somebody somewhere to exercise a value judgement (prejudice judgement) regarding what is equal to what. At the moment there is a market that sets rates of pay. If you can't get enough people to fill a role, you generally have to pay more. If you have a surfeit of applicants, you can often pay a bit less. Good old supply and demand theory at work. Not perfect, but the best solution we've got!

[James Deuce]

Yes true Jim. As I say it was a discussion in a lecture. i.e. 2hours out of my busy life. I realise nurses are horribly underpaid - part of my pint actually.

Hmmmm - maybe I should go back to driving trucks ;) Over and out, that's a BIG 10-4.

Surely you misunderstood?

[James Deuce]

OK, let's look at something like Police (male dominated) versus Nurses (female dominated). Both do worthy work for society, work rostered shifts, etc but should they be paid the same?

"Equity" in this context requires somebody somewhere to exercise a value judgement (prejudice judgement) regarding what is equal to what. At the moment there is a market that sets rates of pay. If you can't get enough people to fill a role, you generally have to pay more. If you have a surfeit of applicants, you can often pay a bit less. Good old supply and demand theory at work. Not perfect, but the best solution we've got!
Nursing has never fit the supply and demand model. Institutional understaffing has resulted in staffing policies and procedures that mean more work for Nurses, but not more money.

[F5 Dave]

Nursing has never fit the supply and demand model. Institutional understaffing has resulted in staffing policies and procedures that mean more work for Nurses, but not more money.

It's funny (in a sick way) that some govt depts can be run in such a way as to pay nogoodfckers stupid amounts of money to squander as much public money as they can & then get bonuses despite scandals & lack of performance, yet other soft targets (health, education etc) get the bums rush.

[Hitcher]

Nursing has never fit the supply and demand model. Institutional understaffing has resulted in staffing policies and procedures that mean more work for Nurses, but not more money.
Exactly. And this won't be solved by somebody somewhere determining that nurses should be paid the same as Police.

[Ms Piggy]

Surely you misunderstood?
Ooooopss, did I? If you are underpaid working in IT and your wife (who is a highly qualified nurse) will only get 95% of what you earn and your truck drivin' brother earns more than both of you.....well that would make me wanna be a truck driver. Well not really but, maybe if being a social worker f*cks with my mind too much.

Mr H - your nurses vs police example is the sorta thing we were talking about. Interesting that Police get paid more than nurses and who dominates that profession. All those lovely (and not so lovely) men that I'm a fan of.

F5Dave - yes it's good to think about what I believe and why. I still think women are disadvantaged but, not sure how to sort that one out.

[James Deuce]

Ooooopss, did I? If you are underpaid working in IT and your wife (who is a highly qualified nurse) will only get 95% of what you earn and your truck drivin' brother earns more than both of you.....well that would make me wanna be a truck driver. Well not really but, maybe if being a social worker f*cks with my mind too much.

Mr H - your nurses vs police example is the sorta thing we were talking about. Interesting that Police get paid more than nurses and who dominates that profession. All those lovely (and not so lovely) men that I'm a fan of.

F5Dave - yes it's good to think about what I believe and why. I still think women are disadvantaged but, not sure how to sort that one out.


Ahh yes. I forgot. Being a man I'm obviously getting what I deserve then. ;) That is her base rate. In reality she would earn more than me. I am not underpaid working in IT, I am getting market rate for the job I do. Nurses wages have jumped double figure percentage points overnight, and as a tax payer that will have an effect at some point down the track on my income. Please bear in mind that she isn't working, because raising children is more important. Nurses no longer get paid less than Police either. The rate for a senior staff nurse is the same as a Police constable, thanks to the last wage round that increments Nurse's pay steeply over the next 12 months.

The NZ Public do not want to pay Nurses more, because as many people have stated on this site they have no desire to pay more tax. But they will expect quality care when in a public hospital, and complain about service and food, and arrive drunk and break bones and cause other sundry injuries to Nursing and Medical staff, and then complain about the shoddy treatment they got. There is no point complaining about what Social Workers, Police (who I think are underpaid too), and Nurses get paid, if you aren't personally willing to pay more income tax, so it becomes a self defeating cycle.

Still waaay OT too. :)

The memory of that darn wrecker made me grumpy all day, and NOW look what's happened!

[Ms Piggy]

Thanks lads. Nice to have non-nasty conversation about such a controversial topic.

[toads]

I missed seeing those. I have some difficulty rationalising how this can be so, given my experience in a range of public and private sector organisations.

Yes I have a dificulty with statistics too, largely because the variables, are never mentioned. For example, if the statistics represent the whole of new zealand then wages in the major centres tend to be higher than those in the provinces, and there may be more women working in the provinces per capita than the percentages of working women in the cities, who knows, I think the financial predictions made are like the "average wage" thing that adds em all up and divides them by the amount of people working. It can't reflect anything other than the variables that are used to calculate the outcome.

[Ms Piggy]

NZ's top corporate executive is a woman and gets paid more than $2million a year. The PM is a woman and much of the cabinet is female and earn 6 figure salaries. If the data your lecturer has is more than 3 years old, it may need revising. There are a large number of women where I work who are paid substantially more than me and my colleagues, who are largely male I might add, and have positions of "authority".

Ok, my lecturer got back to me about the stats he showed us, so I've attached it to this post. As you can see they go from 1991 through to 2003.

He also said: "You do need to remember that different measures give different results, so, if we are talking about average hourly earnings excluding overtime, the gender pay gap has reduced from around 81% in the early 1990s to 85.3% in 2003. If it's the average weekly earnings excluding overtime then it's been more static between 76-79% but not showing a very clear trend upwards.

Once you include overtime it all changes again (the gaps get bigger again because women tend to work fewer overtime hours). You'll recall that the gap in weekly average earnings is greater than hourly because women tend to work fewer hours (less full-time workers) which drives their average down."

So I was actually refering to 'average hourly earnings' but got my figures slightly wrong.

[Hitcher]

Ok, my lecturer got back to me about the stats he showed us, so I've attached it to this post. As you can see they go from 1991 through to 2003.
Thanks for these, CSL. But hardly evidence of injustice or inequality. In brutal terms these are the averages of the total male recorded workforce compared with the comparable recorded female workforce. This is an average of the whole fruitshop, not apples compared with apples.

[FROSTY]

It's funny (in a sick way) that some govt depts can be run in such a way as to pay nogoodfckers stupid amounts of money to squander as much public money as they can & then get bonuses despite scandals & lack of performance, yet other soft targets (health, education etc) get the bums rush.
Totally off topic -but then were off topic anyhoo
The only way a local council staff member can get a pay rise is to have a certain number of staff working for them -So basicly they get paid more if theyre incompetent.

[Ms Piggy]

not apples compared with apples.Yeah well that is b/c I'm not comparing apples with apples (see posting #46). That was my inital point. Overall women are paid less.

[StoneChucker]

That was my inital point. Overall women are paid less
Women live longer than men, so when we die (from the exertion of chasing after you women folk), you carry on working, thus catching up, and earning as much as us, if not more! :msn-wink:

Nowdays though, surely there is no discrimination based on gender? Nursing or police for example, you are paid on position, not gender. Of course a female nurse may earn less than a male police officer, or vica versa, but thats because it's not compared equally.
I agree in the past it was completely biased, but I feel it's on the mend, or already mended now, in the places I'm exposed to anyway.

BIG however, I don't know much, about anything really, so please set me straight IF I'm wrong.

PS: Wasn't serious about the catching up of earnings in the 1st paragraph, even though you precious creatures DO outlive us :buggerd: :beer:

[Ms Piggy]

Women live longer than men, so when we die (from the exertion of chasing after you women folk), you carry on working, thus catching up, and earning as much as us, if not more! :msn-wink:

PS: Wasn't serious about the catching up of earnings in the 1st paragraph, even though you precious creatures DO outlive us :buggerd: :beer:

Hah hah hah! Good logic my friend! :niceone:

I won't bang on about it anymore, well not much more anyway. ;) My point is: there is a gender pay gap. Yes - there are women in positions of great power, yes - women get paid more than they used to and yes - we are not disciminated against due to our gender any longer.

HOWEVER - there is still a gap. Caring proffessions which typically involve women are paid less but, it is difficult to try and compare professions. Some lines of thought say that women do a lot more unpaid work and that their work is undervalued b/c it is viewed as an extension of what comes naturally to women i.e. caring & nurturing.

Actually Stoney, I think someone pointed put earlier that Police & Nurses do get pretty much a similar wage.

[FROSTY]

Um really stupid question I know --But what has this to do with wreckers in welly???
Jaz-what parts do ya need--Maybbee Us dorklanders can help ya.

[StoneChucker]

women do a lot more unpaid work and that their work is undervalued b/c it is viewed as an extension of what comes naturally to women i.e. caring & nurturing.
That I agree with 100%, and it troubles me that there is still the sterotypical thought that women have a certain place/roll to fulfill. I think THAT is slowly changing too, but I'm not sure if it ever will completely disappear. (I sat for a good few mins, contemplating how to word that. It's still not quite how I'd like it, but close enough, hope I don't offend anyone)

Regarding the Police/Nurse comparison, they were just examples.

[James Deuce]

That I agree with 100%, and it troubles me that there is still the sterotypical thought that women have a certain place/roll to fulfill. I think THAT is slowly changing too, but I'm not sure if it ever will completely disappear. (I sat for a good few mins, contemplating how to word that. It's still not quite how I'd like it, but close enough, hope I don't offend anyone)

Regarding the Police/Nurse comparison, they were just examples.

Hang on a minute. This is descending into PC twaddle. Men and Women are fundamentally different, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Men and Women are designed (either by God or Nature, but lets not go there please) to fulfill complementary roles in life, and there is nothing inherently wrong with that. What has changed however, and only recently in the scheme of things I might add, is the comparative value given to to female and male roles. For some odd reason, actually not that odd - it all has to do with accumulating money in the short-term, we have lost sight of the fact that without Women there is no next generation, and without quality early life care we create big social problems about 15-20 years down the track. I've noticed an editorial push in the NZ "press" (I feel dirty calling those easily manipulated robots "press") to make it OK to put kids in care from a very early age.

I value my Wife's contribution to my life, and the lives of my children above all my other relationships in life. She is the only person I trust to look after my children the way I think they deserve to be looked after.

However, I don't think there is any need to discriminate against people who chose (more likely pushed because they can't afford not to) to work and put their kids in day care, nor are women any less capable in any work environment I can think of. But that doesn't mean we should abandon common sense and describe Men and Women as fundamentally the same, because they are most emphatically NOT, and it is NOT a stereotype to say that Men make better ditch diggers than women, generally speaking, and that Women make better breast feeders than men, apart from certain Papuan hill tribes, where the Granddads are wicked breast feeders.

[James Deuce]

Um really stupid question I know --But what has this to do with wreckers in welly???
Jaz-what parts do ya need--Maybbee Us dorklanders can help ya.She's cheap and wants stuff fundamentally free. I think that covers it. Oh, and she's Scots, so is fundamentally incapable of paying new or second hand prices for anything. Count the coins in your sporran after she's visited too.

[StoneChucker]

ALL of Jim2's last post
Omg hehe, you're gonna get it :D
As to your other post Jim, I agree there too. I didn't want to post what you said, since I didn't know how to word it. Like you say, all the PC talk does get very tiring, which is why I don't normally get into these. So I may quietly, while noone is watching, take my cards off the table.

[Ms Piggy]

Hang on a minute. This is descending into PC twaddle. Men and Women are fundamentally different, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Men and Women are designed (either by God or Nature, but lets not go there please) to fulfill complementary roles in life, and there is nothing inherently wrong with that. What has changed however, and only recently in the scheme of things I might add, is the comparative value given to to female and male roles. For some odd reason, actually not that odd - it all has to do with accumulating money in the short-term, we have lost sight of the fact that without Women there is no next generation, and without quality early life care we create big social problems about 15-20 years down the track. I've noticed an editorial push in the NZ "press" (I feel dirty calling those easily manipulated robots "press") to make it OK to put kids in care from a very early age.

I value my Wife's contribution to my life, and the lives of my children above all my other relationships in life. She is the only person I trust to look after my children the way I think they deserve to be looked after.

However, I don't think there is any need to discriminate against people who chose (more likely pushed because they can't afford not to) to work and put their kids in day care, nor are women any less capable in any work environment I can think of. But that doesn't mean we should abandon common sense and describe Men and Women as fundamentally the same, because they are most emphatically NOT, and it is NOT a stereotype to say that Men make better ditch diggers than women, generally speaking, and that Women make better breast feeders than men, apart from certain Papuan hill tribes, where the Granddads are wicked breast feeders.

Well said but that very last sentence has me intruiged!

[jazbug5]

Um really stupid question I know --But what has this to do with wreckers in welly???
Jaz-what parts do ya need--Maybbee Us dorklanders can help ya.

Thank ee kindly, Mr. Frosty; actually Mr. White Trash sorted me out (well done that man) with a very servicable replacement on Saturday.
Everyone! Go buy lots of stuff from him!
...I would, but I'm Scottish and cheap, and anyway I'm underpaid because I'm a girl. :msn-wink:

[toads]

Thank ee kindly, Mr. Frosty; actually Mr. White Trash sorted me out (well done that man) with a very servicable replacement on Saturday.
Everyone! Go buy lots of stuff from him!
...I would, but I'm Scottish and cheap, and anyway I'm underpaid because I'm a girl. :msn-wink:

glad you got it sorted Jazbug, glad the topic came back on track at the end too whew!!!!

[rodgerd]

Yeah well that is b/c I'm not comparing apples with apples (see posting #46). That was my inital point. Overall women are paid less.

Women are also more likely to spend a chunk of their lives out of the workforce raising children. If I spend 20 years in my profession, should someone with 10 years experience get paid the same as me because they decided to have kids?

[Ms Piggy]

Women are also more likely to spend a chunk of their lives out of the workforce raising children. If I spend 20 years in my profession, should someone with 10 years experience get paid the same as me because they decided to have kids?
No of course not but, if you would look at the previous discussion and also at the table I attached you will clearly see that women are paid less over all at an hourly rate. And also b/c women are far more likely to go into caring professions and b/c caring professions generally are paid less (although as Jim2 pointed out this is changing), caring professions (as I have said before) are undervalued.