Treaty of Waitangi

[COP_B8]

Hi there, I am completing a research paper on the relevance of the Treaty of Waitangi in Contemporary New Zealand for a final year paper in my Maori Business degree at Victoria University and was wanting to get a bit of a discussion going about its relevance as I am trying to establish opinions from a broad range of society [Government, Media, Maori, Non Maori, Immigrants etc....]

For those that dont know me I am a returning student [Mature student although that title doesnt really fit me :)] at Vic Uni in Wellington studying Law, Criminology, Maori Business and Commercial Law (Hons)

If anyone has an opinion I would appreciate your comments, and also if you could please identify yourself as Maori, Pakeha, etc......


Cheers in Advance

[JimO]

im a european and my opinion is.


FUCK THE TREATY

[Trudes]

I think we should get rid of the Monarchy and then we could also ditch the Treaty. I'm a student at Massey, and every paper I do has some Treaty content in it, also have to do an entire paper on the Treaty next year, and to be honest, I am sick to death of the whole bloody thing. I see some of its value, but also think some of it is very irrelevant now and causes more problems than it solves. I'm a Pakeha, and constantly get told that there's no way I could understand about the Treaty and the injustices Maori have suffered through the broken promises in it etc etc, well, if we are meant to be partners, then explain and lets get on with it, solve what we can and then rip the bloody thing up!!!
Just my opinion.

[Big Dan]

im a european and my opinion is.


FUCK THE TREATY


+1

With the multi cultures in this country there is no need for a treaty for only the white man and the black man after all we live in a rainbow nation

[idb]

I'm a European.
I too get sick of the Treaty but I also have a small understanding of the wrongs visited on the indigenous folk.

When I see what the likes of Ngai Tahu have done with their money I don't resent their payout at all.

My greatest hope is that once the restitution process is completed then all New Zealanders will feel able to embrace the Maori culture as a unique and identifying aspect of being a New Zealander.
At the moment the conflict between the European and Maori is too polarising and causes too much resentment among non-Maori (especially European) people.

But then I'm an optimist you see.

[Robbo]

I beleive that the Treaty is now an out-dated document and too many people are dwelling on it and living in the past instead of looking into the future. None of us were alive way back then and times have changed. We should all be looking at how we can go foward together and live in harmony. This country can not afford to keep dishing out these multi-million payouts from a limited tax take and needs to focus on today and beyond.
This is a Pakeha view but i suspect that it is shared by many people from both sides of the debate.

[Magua]

Pakeha. I think it's relevant today. I too have looked at the treaty at uni and some of the abuses (SILNA in environmental management). Grievances should be addressed, as their long lasting effects are still visible today, poverty etc.

[Finn]

Maori Business and Commercial Law? What a fucken joke.

This country makes me sick.

[Finn]

Pakeha. I think it's relevant today. I too have looked at the treaty at uni and some of the abuses (SILNA in environmental management). Grievances should be addressed, as their long lasting effects are still visible today, poverty etc.

Universities are doing well keeping the gravy trail alive and well. All they need is a constant string of simpletons and it's easy.

[MSTRS]

I'm a New Zealander.
Rip the fkn thing up. Remove all the seperatism. Declare a Bill of Rights, where all citizens are treated equally.

[LilSel]

Rip the fkn thing up. Remove all the seperatism. Declare a Bill of Rights, where all citizens are treated equally.

I beleive that the Treaty is now an out-dated document and too many people are dwelling on it and living in the past instead of looking into the future. We should all be looking at how we can go foward together and live in harmony. This country can not afford to keep dishing out these multi-million payouts from a limited tax take and needs to focus on today and beyond.



I too get sick of the Treaty.


+1
With the multi cultures in this country there is no need for a treaty for only the white man and the black man after all we live in a rainbow nation

im a european and my opinion is.
FUCK THE TREATY

+1 to all of that!... :niceone:

This is a subject that we cant bring up in the office here at work... causes too much shit!... The 'treaty' is something I avoid discussing as much as possible. :apint:

[NZsarge]

I'm a New Zealander.
Rip the fkn thing up. Remove all the seperatism. Declare a Bill of Rights, where all citizens are treated equally.

Could'nt have put it better I reckon.

[Finn]

I wonder if Cop B8 is going to use any of this material spoken by "real" NZers in his research paper?

[c4.]

http://www.celticnz.org/TreatyBook/Precis.htm
[some salt, some diamonds, some shit, some speculation.
Definitely an industry IMHO

[Finn]

http://www.celticnz.org/TreatyBook/Precis.htm
[some salt, some diamonds, some shit, some speculation.
Definitely an industry IMHO

Excellent find! I shall read that tonight.

I'd rep you for this but the Treaty of Wipefinnie has taken away some buttons.

[MSTRS]

.... please identify yourself as Maori, Pakeha, etc......


See...this just perpetuates the problem. Identifying with a particular racial group does nothing to bring us together as a nation (small as we might be). Most people will say along the lines of "We need to work together....etc" - but separating by racial title ensures failure.

[Lias]

We need to wipe our arses with it, then shove said used paper into the mouths of every fucking iwi sitting there with their hands out and their mouths open yelling "give me back my land".

You want your land back? Give me back my blankets and muskets, let alone the KFC, cannabis and V8s!

PS: I'm european who works at a large maori organisation :-) Maori culture is great, and most maori are fine.. but the ones who have their hands out make me want to go Hongi Hika on their arse..

[peasea]

im a european and my opinion is.


FUCK THE TREATY


What he said.

[nodrog]

i think most of it is a crock of shit, 100 acres for a couple of rusty muskets and a crate of lion red sounds like a fair deal to me.

and what about the poor bastards that were here before for the Maori, what did they get? oh thats right, all they got was eaten!

its going to be funny in 150 years time when my ancestors go and claim back my XD falcon ute, because they dont think the 3 tinnies i got for it was a fair deal.

Go the treaty!

[Grub]

What the Europeans (my lot) did to Maori was not pretty. Worse than the US are doing in Iraq because they're not there to grab land, just their resources. If there were war crime tribunals and United Nations back then, they would have been pillored. It was bad, really bad and it was cloaked in the respectability of church and crown. I'm not surprised Maori have a grievance but FFS isn't it time to get over it?

Having said that, the current "Treaty" stuff is disgusting. You have a bunch of people with their hands out (again and repeatedly) saying that they're only losers because of what happened in the 1860's. Yes we need to redress a lot of wrongs, give back some land and money where the land can't be given back.

Then the recipients of the return need to get off their asses and do something with it! They got back the Raglan Golf Course and now its the biggest useless gorse patch in the whole Raglan area.

"The Treaty" in modern times has been grossly mis-used for claiming every bloody thing god made and as a crutch for every bloody cultural issue imaginable. Maori have serious social issues. Only they can fix them. That will happen only when they stop blaming everyone else and turn on their own to straighten up. There's been some good reparation, use it.

We also all conveniently forget that Maori took this land by force from the peaceful Moriori people and ate them. They did such a good job that only those who fled to the Chathams survived. So, if there are wrongs to be righted and if there are claims to ownership ... is the land we're giving back to Maori in turn going to be given back to the Moriori?

[quallman1234]

What the Europeans (my lot) did to Maori was not pretty. Worse than the US are doing in Iraq because they're not there to grab land, just their resources. If there were war crime tribunals and United Nations back then, they would have been pillored. It was bad, really bad and it was cloaked in the respectability of church and crown. I'm not surprised Maori have a grievance but FFS isn't it time to get over it?

Having said that, the current "Treaty" stuff is disgusting. You have a bunch of people with their hands out (again and repeatedly) saying that they're only losers because of what happened in the 1860's. Yes we need to redress a lot of wrongs, give back some land and money where the land can't be given back.

Then the recipients of the return need to get off their asses and do something with it! They got back the Raglan Golf Course and now its the biggest useless gorse patch in the whole Raglan area.

"The Treaty" in modern times has been grossly mis-used for claiming every bloody thing god made and as a crutch for every bloody cultural issue imaginable. Maori have serious social issues. Only they can fix them. That will happen only when they stop blaming everyone else and turn on their own to straighten up. There's been some good reparation, use it.

We also all conveniently forget that Maori took this land by force from the peaceful Moriori people and ate them. They did such a good job that only those who fled to the Chathams survived. So, if there are wrongs to be righted and if there are claims to ownership ... is the land we're giving back to Maori in turn going to be given back to the Moriori?

Well put. Totally agree.

[BuFfY]

I am a New Zealander.
I think that the treaty is useful in some aspects, yet it is a complete form of positive discrimination. I know a lot of people will argue with me about this but oh well.
I also think that it is relevant to teach from both perspectives. At school all I remember learning was that the poor lil maori got ripped off and da de da de da. My students will not be receiving that view.
Yet I don't think I have enough knowledge, yet, to form a complete opinion on it.

We were talking about it last night with an American that is staying here. I think that one thing that is left out of it all is that Maori were given the chance to have education etc but were also given the opportunity not to. Most of them have disregarded their original culture and only cling onto the Treaty if they need it to get ahead in some way

[oldrider]

To the Maori screaming, "give us our land back" I say, kick him in the balls!

That should give him a couple of acres to go on with! :rofl:

Seriously:

The treaty causes nothing but trouble, neither side has honoured it and it has outgrown it's self as a practical document.

NZ can not move forward efficiently while dragging outdated rubbish behind it.:argue:

Consign the treaty to the museum, where it belongs!

Then lets get on with the real world. :grouphug: (IMHO) John. (New Zealander)

[Magua]

Universities are doing well keeping the gravy trail alive and well. All they need is a constant string of simpletons and it's easy.

What I said is far from what we are taught. We had no specific lectures on the treaty, just the one on SILNA (south island landless natives act) and the subsequent claim to the Waitangi Tribunal as a part of challenges to environmental management.

Gravy trail indeed.

[Finn]

Oh no, Skyrider is in the house. Wait for it...

[Skyryder]

Oh no, Skyrider is in the house. Wait for it...

The treaty was a document signed by both parties with the best of intentions. It was a document of the times where the food source from maori was rightly protected. The times have now changed and the continuation of this protected food source is now no longer relevant. Maori have been given every oppertunity in terms of working conditions, education and all that that has been available to non maori but still they want more. The foreshore issue is but one example. They will never be content OR consider themselves as an equal as indictive in a true partnership

Europeans gave them a written language and that in itself should have made up for all the wrongs, both real and percieved, but no NOT ONE MAORI HAS ACKNOWLEDGED THIS OR OFFERED ANY THANKS. NOT FUCKEN ONE

In short the treaty is a festering sore in this country, where the scab is constantly scrapped by maori who blame all their problems not on themselves but others and untill some one has enough guts to say enough is enough the scab will always be removed when it suits maori to do so.

Skyryder

[Pixie]

They should be thankful we didn't use them as quary,like the aussies did with the abos

[idb]

The Treaty was mostly honoured by the Europeans only when it suited them.
It was broken from day one and that's the basis of the Maori grievances.

Much of the trouble is knee-jerk attitudes from those ignorant of any history surrounding the Treaty...on both sides - Maori and European.

The Maori need to realise that they have to get the average bloke and blokess on side.
A Right is only a Right when it's recognised as such by the majority.

On the other hand the rest of us can't simply ignore it and hope it'll go away when it's the focus of such a large section of our population.

[Morcs]

We all look at the treaty and other such things from a modern point of view, with regards to human rights and all that crap.

Think back to the time, over 150 years ago for farks sake. Wars were quite normal. People die, the stronger team wins, and the country moves on.

I know im going to get blasted for what im about to say, but this country wouldve been better if the treaty never existed, yes, there wouldve been more harsh acts but in the long run in works out better. Look at all the old countrys of the british empire - all of them that claimed independance are worse off now IMHO.

- View of an ignorant and nieve pom. (god save the queen)

[MSTRS]

On the other hand the rest of us can't simply ignore it and hope it'll go away when it's the focus of such a large section of our population.

The focus is brought by a relative few, don't you know?

[Indiana_Jones]

Born in Europe

It's just a lame excuse for Maori to use to milk the system, commit crime etc.

I don't complain to everyone in Europe that did/tried to invade Britain.

Get on with it!

-Indy

[bobsmith]

I was born in south korea. (New Zealand Citizen for 7 years)

Before I came here I had the view that I was coming to a free country where everyone is treated equally...


Far from it.

I won't even get into the freedom part now as that would take too too long... As for the equally part...

The only way to describe Treaty of Waitangi and the government's action on it is that it's a legalised racism targeted against anyone who is not maori in this country. How long can we dwell on our past and make good what our ancestors did wrong so many generations ago? How long can we allow this legalised discrimination of people in this country to continue?

Hell, my ancestors were brutally murdered and raped by the Japanese, you don't see Koreans going around killing Japanese or Japanese apologising. Many of the Australian ancestors were convicts shipped over from Britain, Australians are no longer treated as convicts. Let us move on and stop this madness.

I say "Fuck the treaty" +1

[yod]

so what im hearing from most is:

if you fuck a community over and then ignore it for long enough (as well as benefit from the ill-gotten gains for 170 years and oppress the remaining natives...nice bonus), you should be allowed to plead ignorance and apathy and get away with it because you're in the majority....

i have to say im mightily impressed with those pulling out the "they did it to someone else first (apparently) so we should be allowed to as well" excuse too....very mature :laugh: wow...the ignorance in this country is stupefying

[bobsmith]

the ignorance in this country is stupefying

It's called modern realisation not ignorance.

Treaty of Waitangi and current law surrounding it is a legalised discrimination based on one's heritage. Much like slavery and social classes. There is no place for it in the modern world.

[idb]

The focus is brought by a relative few, don't you know?

I'm not talking about just the ones that protest.
There'll be plenty that feel aggrieved that don't march across bridges, tear up public gardens or throw mud at politicians.

[Grub]

i have to say im mightily impressed with those pulling out the "they did it to someone else first (apparently) so we should be allowed to as well"

So you don't believe the Maori completely wiped out a race of people who had no weapons or word for war? Apart from that, you rather missed the point.

Maori are crying "foul!" and fair enough too. But when they are asked in the same vein about their injustices to Moriori, they refuse to acknowledge or engage on the issue - both officially and unofficially. Your use of the word "apparently" perfectly illustrates my point, you've just done it too. How would you feel if European New Zealanders used the same dismissive term in relation to Maori claims of injustice ... huh ?

Double standards, anyone's double standards, I cannot stomach.

[idb]

Hell, my ancestors were brutally murdered and raped by the Japanese, you don't see Koreans going around killing Japanese or Japanese apologising.

Korean "Comfort Women" WW2?

[idb]

So you don't believe the Maori completely wiped out a race of people who had no weapons or word for war? Apart from that, you rather missed the point.

Maori are crying "foul!" and fair enough too. But when they are asked in the same vein about their injustices to Moriori, they refuse to acknowledge or engage on the issue - both officially and unofficially.

Double standards, anyone's double standards, I cannot stomach.

There's the small matter of a written contract involved in the Maori/European situation though.

The book "Moriori" by Michael King says the NZ was most likely not settled by Moriori.

[Hitcher]

Once the historic injustices and claims under the Treaty are resolved, it will probably be time for a republic and a constitution. At that stage the Treaty should be past it's use-by date.

I have a nagging suspicion that such is the strength of New Zealand's fondness for a constitutional monarchy, that Great Britain will be a republic long before we are...

[peasea]

The focus is brought by a relative few, don't you know?


Agreed. The noise comes from a very vocal minority group (of stirrers, IMHO) who have nothing better to do and always have their hand out. They have all day to occupy places coz they don't have jobs.

We've pandered to these bludgers long enough.

I've never actually come across a whinging Maori, all the maoris I've worked with and had anything to with want nothing but the right to go and do a decent days work for a decent days wage.

Maybe I'm moving in the wrong circles. I don't know any Maori activists but I know some hard working fishermen who are getting ripped off by their own people. What does that tell you?

[Winter]

In short the treaty is a festering sore in this country, where the scab is constantly scrapped by maori who blame all their problems not on themselves but others and untill some one has enough guts to say enough is enough the scab will always be removed when it suits maori to do so.

Skyryder

Nicely Put.


+1 to Fuck the treaty. (Im a Kiwi)

[scott411]

the treaty was doomed by the start, it was poorly translated in the beginning and the english and moari versions are very different, and their is no clear translation,

i say scrap the thing, get a bill of rights, get rid of the monarchy while we are at it and lets start working together and celerbrate our similarties, not our differences

[yod]

So you don't believe the Maori completely wiped out a race of people who had no weapons or word for war? Apart from that, you rather missed the point.

Maori are crying "foul!" and fair enough too. But when they are asked in the same vein about their injustices to Moriori, they refuse to acknowledge or engage on the issue - both officially and unofficially. Your use of the word "apparently" perfectly illustrates my point, you've just done it too. How would you feel if European New Zealanders used the same dismissive term in relation to Maori claims of injustice ... huh ?

Double standards, anyone's double standards, I cannot stomach.

oh hell no....it doesnt illustrate your point at all, actually

my use of the word 'apparently' is because I, unlike most others around here, will not suggest I know everything about a subject when I dont; in other words, I have heard that the Maori screwed over the Moriori but I dont know it for a fact so I would rather not misrepresent myself (or the real facts) and state that something happened when it may have, in fact, not.....

too many people on this website will make statements and represent them as fact when they have no fucking idea what they are talking about - and too many other ignorant idiots will then take that as gospel...."i read it somewhere...."

I'm a decent enough bloke to choose not to try and sway other people opinions by misrepresentation....thats why 'apparently'


EDIT: im not suggesting for a second that it didnt happen, im just suggesting I dont know fuck all about it (but either way, that's not the point) - regardless of whether the Maori fucked over Moriori, the "they did it first so we can too" excuse is STILL unbelievably childish and insurmountably ignorant

[MSTRS]

I'm not talking about just the ones that protest.
There'll be plenty that feel aggrieved that don't march across bridges, tear up public gardens or throw mud at politicians.

Look what happened in the Far North...with regards to the sealing of the road to Cape Reinga. The local Kaumata sent those lying, cheating, bludging 'protesters' scurrying off. We will see more instances of this in the future, as more people see these pricks for what they are.
Edit. Those Kaumata (note the capital to denote respect) see that the future lies in going forward for the betterment of all.

[HTFU]

I am a Bitsa Kiwi like the majority, you know the types, Scottish, English, NZ Maori Ancestory. Working in NZ secondary system and at a school with 55% Maori students I have a few theories on what is going wrong in NZ and its got nothing to do with the treaty.

Firstly I believe our education system from day nought has created the bicultural problems and now dawning multicultural problems we have. Maori culture and language was raped over successive eduaction policies, the disciplining of Maori Language users, the stories of savages and the over sensationalised Moriori concepts of NZ history are documented parts of our education system. A large generation of New Zealanders were brainwashed in the early and mid parts of last century, which was then passed onto their children.

This has resulted in a group of New Zealanders disliking things Maori and another group feeling guilty of Maori mistreatment (Institutional types like university staff and government). You also have a group of people who identify as being the mistreated Maori and make use of the so called gravy train some New Zealands resent. Namely the ones with European ancestry. Hence a division amongst New Zealanders.

Those New Zealanders with European ancestry that cry foul over such atrocities as the Moriori slayings etc really need to undo the years of brainwashing with a bit of reading and research, the TV one archives are a good start for some docos, there is no doubt that some crap went down but crap goes down all over the world, I am happy that those old timers tried to reduce the impact they were having on the people they encountered when they got here, regardless of who was here, how they got here or when. Hence a piss poor attempt at a treaty. Far prouder of my European ancestors than an Aussy should be. Hell mine even liked the savages so much as to marry one.

Those Maori sucking on the gravy train are no better than the early government that stole land. As far as I am concerned they are stealing tax payers money, but doing it legally under the cover of the treaty. I am not talking about the rural Maori making a go of some deserved compensation and clearly are doing right by their people, I am talking about the ones in the institutions, they are the problem. Hypocrisy of beurocrasy.

In regards to the effectiveness or our education system it has never worked for Maori (how could it really). The trouble is it never really worked for anyone else. Ask yourself how did School C go. Sure a few of us cruised through it all and did well but the majority didn't (any second year 5th out there) and thats everyone not just Maori. Basically we are flogging a dead horse, some schools are just flogging it a bit better than others. How are our Island and Asian students going. What about the Somalians and other African students, is it working for them. Look at our gang land culture coming through its all a product of our kids (and there parents) disengagement from an archaic education system.


Like the majority of New Zealanders I want to move on from the focus on the treaty like I said from the start thats not where the problem lies. I look at the Maori students in my school and I know we are doing them a disservice. They need to learn stuff other than irrelevant and complicated Maths and Science. As do the majority of our students. Why do we push this shit on our kids. Work placements and I mean helping the community, the elderly, environment, trade based learning, more PE and Health. If this was the focus of the government we would have more engaged students, less problems with kids going off the wall, (and the money needed to address them, like teachers needing more pay because its a shit job).

On a daily basis I see teachers trying to impart useless information on kids that are sick of it. Fuck I was and that was 20 years ago. I talk to 50 year old teachers who were second year 5th and were sick of the shit. But here we are still trying to shovel it. Engaged Maori kids in schools will become succesful motivated adults that won't need the treaty. Is the treaty relevant today, no because it still isn't helping the Maori students I see everyday.


Anyway the Majority which is New Zealanders with European and Maori decent will soon become the minority in this country and it will have nothing to do with the Maori and the treaty and thats when the real fun will begin. Bring on those Crips and Bloods. Can't wait.

[duckonin]

EUROPEAN, Maori are not indigenous at all, the treaty is no longer valid,and never should of been, there were never any bounday pegs the mongrels just waved their arm's and said we own that to the top of the hill and out to the sea, that is all ours BRO there are no Maoris left in this country , most are European but some are as brown as throw backs, those wanting the treaty rectified are a bunch of bludgers wanting to increase their own stake in life, they couldn't give a shit about anyone else,the brains of a white man and the cunning of a black are a bad combination.....

[HTFU]

the brains of a white man and the cunning of a black are a bad combination.....

Fuck bro thats harsh :eek5:

[Albino]

Probably already said already, but imho:

I agree with the treaty and what it has done for maori. However, I also believe that if anyone is not grieving today over a historical issue then there are only two reasons why they will feel grieved tomorrow:

Greed
An injustice was not unknown to that person.


In the latter case, if this was known by your ancestors and they did nothing then by now the government should be able to say that the grievance has not affected you or your iwi.

So in summary, all claims should stop from NOW. The only possible exception being something that is brought to light for the first time that directly and materially affects the current generation. Even then I'd suggest too much time has elapsed for anyone to really be affected.

Time to move on.

[Albino]

Probably already said already, but imho:

I agree with the treaty and what it has done for maori. However, I also believe that if anyone is not grieving today over a historical issue then there are only two reasons why they will feel grieved tomorrow:

Greed
An injustice was not unknown to that person.


In the latter case, if this was known by your ancestors and they did nothing then by now the government should be able to say that the grievance has not affected you or your iwi. If it wasn't known then it was too long ago to affect you and it wasn't consequential enough to have affected your ancestors.

So in summary, all claims should stop from NOW.

Time to move on.

[HTFU]

materially affects the current generation.

Yeah like our education system. We could all claim a grievance there. :lol:

[Ocean1]

I They need to learn stuff other than irrelevant and complicated Maths and Science. As do the majority of our students. Why do we push this shit on our kids. Work placements and I mean helping the community, the elderly, environment, trade based learning, more PE and Health. If this was the focus of the government we would have more engaged students, less problems with kids going off the wall, (and the money needed to address them, like teachers needing more pay because its a shit job).

Well argued. And disastrously wrong. The dumbing down of our education system is possibly the biggest threat to our civilisation there has ever been. It casts a cloud over our future darker than any mere social or environmental concerns.

Dude, science is just a method of learning, and maths simply it’s language. Both are the cornerstones of our civilisation, if you doubt that ask yourself how far you'd get with your plans for today without access to our current technology. I promise you the largest single benefit to every human on this planet is access to modern tools, drugs, transport, agriculture, communication etc. How many lives would the loss of modern science cost? All of them. All other disciplines pale into insignificance in terms of the impact they have on the quality of our lives.

By all means teach social management skills, languages, environmental awareness, history, health, all necessary for success as an adult. Teach also the more esoteric skills required to build and service our civilisation, we can’t survive without them, (this from a hairy arsed fitter OK?). But without science and the ability to manipulate complex numerical concepts our civilisation is dead, along with every other modern advantage it brings.

There’s a theory, (well enough researched to have become close to fact) that this planet has resources enough to support the rise of a technologically sophisticated civilisation just once. If we fail to survive as a civilisation we will not get the chance to rise again. Time the education administrators stoped playing political games with our future, time for society in general to regain the respect due to those professions that make our world what it is.

[idb]

Look what happened in the Far North...with regards to the sealing of the road to Cape Reinga. The local Kaumata sent those lying, cheating, bludging 'protesters' scurrying off. We will see more instances of this in the future, as more people see these pricks for what they are.
Edit. Those Kaumata (note the capital to denote respect) see that the future lies in going forward for the betterment of all.

Agreed.
In my original post I said that there is ignorance on both sides.

[Clockwork]

Well argued. And disastrously wrong. The dumbing down of our education system is possibly the biggest threat to our civilisation there has ever been. It casts a cloud over our future darker than any mere social or environmental concerns.

Dude, science is just a method of learning, and maths simply it’s language. Both are the cornerstones of our civilisation, if you doubt that ask yourself how far you'd get with your plans for today without access to our current technology. I promise you the largest single benefit to every human on this planet is access to modern tools, drugs, transport, agriculture, communication etc. How many lives would the loss of modern science cost? All of them. All other disciplines pale into insignificance in terms of the impact they have on the quality of our lives.

By all means teach social management skills, languages, environmental awareness, history, health, all necessary for success as an adult. Teach also the more esoteric skills required to build and service our civilisation, we can’t survive without them, (this from a hairy arsed fitter OK?). But without science and the ability to manipulate complex numerical concepts our civilisation is dead, along with every other modern advantage it brings.

There’s a theory, (well enough researched to have become close to fact) that this planet has resources enough to support the rise of a technologically sophisticated civilisation just once. If we fail to survive as a civilisation we will not get the chance to rise again. Time the education administrators stoped playing political games with our future, time for society in general to regain the respect due to those professions that make our world what it is.

Perhaps you're both right. Perhaps we should bring back streaming in schools... horses for courses an' all that.

[idb]

EUROPEAN, Maori are not indigenous at all, the treaty is no longer valid,and never should of been, there were never any bounday pegs the mongrels just waved their arm's and said we own that to the top of the hill and out to the sea, that is all ours BRO there are no Maoris left in this country , most are European but some are as brown as throw backs, those wanting the treaty rectified are a bunch of bludgers wanting to increase their own stake in life, they couldn't give a shit about anyone else,the brains of a white man and the cunning of a black are a bad combination.....

You forgot to put pt on the end.

[Bass]

Well argued. And disastrously wrong. The dumbing down of our education system is possibly the biggest threat to our civilisation there has ever been. It casts a cloud over our future darker than any mere social or environmental concerns.

Dude, science is just a method of learning, and maths simply it’s language. Both are the cornerstones of our civilisation, if you doubt that ask yourself how far you'd get with your plans for today without access to our current technology. I promise you the largest single benefit to every human on this planet is access to modern tools, drugs, transport, agriculture, communication etc. How many lives would the loss of modern science cost? All of them. All other disciplines pale into insignificance in terms of the impact they have on the quality of our lives.

By all means teach social management skills, languages, environmental awareness, history, health, all necessary for success as an adult. Teach also the more esoteric skills required to build and service our civilisation, we can’t survive without them, (this from a hairy arsed fitter OK?). But without science and the ability to manipulate complex numerical concepts our civilisation is dead, along with every other modern advantage it brings.

There’s a theory, (well enough researched to have become close to fact) that this planet has resources enough to support the rise of a technologically sophisticated civilisation just once. If we fail to survive as a civilisation we will not get the chance to rise again. Time the education administrators stoped playing political games with our future, time for society in general to regain the respect due to those professions that make our world what it is.

Spot on!! Like it or not, mathematics is the language of the universe and the only universal one.
I think there is a strong case to be made for subjects that enable the student to make a living in our society to have pre-eminence in our education system. If this is not so, then surely we are simply educating people to be supported by the rest of us.

I also think that the biggest factor in Maori success or the lack of it, is their failure in the education system. However, I am unsure as to whether the problem lies with Maori or with the system.

[Sanx]

EDIT: im not suggesting for a second that it didnt happen, im just suggesting I dont know fuck all about it (but either way, that's not the point) - regardless of whether the Maori fucked over Moriori, the "they did it first so we can too" excuse is STILL unbelievably childish and insurmountably ignorant

Wrong - it is entirely relevant. Maori claim special privilige by virtue of being tangata whenua; people who descend from the first people to settle the land. If, as it is claimed with some extremely good archeological evidence, the Moriori were in New Zealand before Maori, then the entire basis for tangata whenua is false.

In addition, look at the current spat over who gets the rights to claim for lots of money in Auckland. One iwi saying that they claimed the land as battle spoil, and therefore it was theirs. Another said they were there first, and therefore it's theirs. If one can claim rights to land as a result of winning terriroty in battle, then most of the iwis' claims can be thrown out immediately, as they 'lost' ownership of the lands to the British crown in military combat.

The treaty is an anachronism and should be discarded as soon as is practicable, along with the PC bullshit that this country seems so proud of. Before the arrival of Europeans, the Maori were a stone-age culture who practiced cannibalism. Not what you might call an advanced culture by any stretch of the imagination, but one that did (does) have its good points.

The treaty itself is a badly-worded document with the English and Te Reo versions differing in meaning, mainly down to a lack of words in Te Reo to match the English counterparts. In any modern contract, a lack of understanding of the wording of a contract is no legal excuse for not adhering to it. Considering that NZ law is based upon British common law, we can go back to see what British common law said about contracts in the 1840s - basically, the same rules applied. It is clear that many chiefs simply did not understand what the treaty meant; whether that was the result of misrepresentation or simple ignorance we won't know.

The treaty, a relatively simple document, is now subject to the same sort of scrutiny given to religious texts, with various self-appointed experts saying that because one particular chief once is reported to have said "I gave them the land, not the sea", then Maori own all the foreshore. The best thing, in the long run, that could happen to New Zealand is the adoption of a formal constitution that supercedes the Treaty of Waitangi and guarantees equal rights to all New Zealanders, regardless of ethnic origin. This would not spell an end to Maori culture, but it would remove the mindless pandering to Maori sensibilities that happens today.

[Grub]

There's the small matter of a written contract involved in the Maori/European situation though.

Agreed


The book "Moriori" by Michael King says the NZ was most likely not settled by Moriori.

The issue wasn't who got here first :whocares:, it was about defeating and decimating them - totally different things.

Why is it we keep seeing people trying to say this didn't happen and trying to sweep it under the carpet? Isn't this what Maori have been complaining about?

[ManDownUnder]

Without reading the rest (thereby biasing my response... and speeding things up quite a lot).

It's a treaty - an agreement not to war on each other and the terms of peace were laid out. There is confusion arising from the concepts of Sovereignty, with Maori and Non Maori laying claim to different aspects of it - an ongoing point of confusion and argument.

It is NOT a contitution. Never has been, was never intended to be. As such, using it as the basis of laws is stupid. Saying The Treaty needs to be used as the basis of our judicial system is simply trying to enforce the identity of the respective parties involved.

What about those that have a foot each way (i.e. they have Maori and non Maori lineage). Does their left foot have a grievance against their right? It's a fanicful notion that's not enforceable.

We need a constitution which simply lays out the right and obligations of all Citizens of this Nation, as well as visitors. When i say all - I mean ALL. It needs to be the supreme document. Sensitivity to the various factions within NZ should be taken into account day to day but if someone comes up to me and holds me responsible for the illdoings of my forefathers, then I'll rightly feel aggreived. I wasn't there, I had nothing to do with it, and to exact retribution from me is a farce. I might be greived at some of my forebears being killed and eaten (as was the way)...

What price could or should I put on that?

The past is the past. the Treaty, while an important document, holds less and less day to day meaning but reflects a period in our past that demonstrates best attempts by all involved to live peacably alongside each other.

Lets do that same thing again... now.

Rant over.

[yod]

Wrong - it is entirely relevant. Maori claim special privilige by virtue of being tangata whenua; people who descend from the first people to settle the land. If, as it is claimed with some extremely good archeological evidence, the Moriori were in New Zealand before Maori, then the entire basis for tangata whenua is false.

In addition, look at the current spat over who gets the rights to claim for lots of money in Auckland. One iwi saying that they claimed the land as battle spoil, and therefore it was theirs. Another said they were there first, and therefore it's theirs. If one can claim rights to land as a result of winning terriroty in battle, then most of the iwis' claims can be thrown out immediately, as they 'lost' ownership of the lands to the British crown in military combat.

The treaty is an anachronism and should be discarded as soon as is practicable, along with the PC bullshit that this country seems so proud of. Before the arrival of Europeans, the Maori were a stone-age culture who practiced cannibalism. Not what you might call an advanced culture by any stretch of the imagination, but one that did (does) have its good points.

The treaty itself is a badly-worded document with the English and Te Reo versions differing in meaning, mainly down to a lack of words in Te Reo to match the English counterparts. In any modern contract, a lack of understanding of the wording of a contract is no legal excuse for not adhering to it. Considering that NZ law is based upon British common law, we can go back to see what British common law said about contracts in the 1840s - basically, the same rules applied. It is clear that many chiefs simply did not understand what the treaty meant; whether that was the result of misrepresentation or simple ignorance we won't know.

The treaty, a relatively simple document, is now subject to the same sort of scrutiny given to religious texts, with various self-appointed experts saying that because one particular chief once is reported to have said "I gave them the land, not the sea", then Maori own all the foreshore. The best thing, in the long run, that could happen to New Zealand is the adoption of a formal constitution that supercedes the Treaty of Waitangi and guarantees equal rights to all New Zealanders, regardless of ethnic origin. This would not spell an end to Maori culture, but it would remove the mindless pandering to Maori sensibilities that happens today.

wrong?? wtf ?? nice spiel, but can you read??

all i was stating in that last post, was that its childish to use the "they did it first so we can too" excuse (for anything)

you actually think thats a reasonable excuse?

[Grub]

all i was stating in that last post, was that its childish to use the "they did it first so we can too" excuse (for anything)

you actually think thats a reasonable excuse?


Actually, you were the one to float that hypothesis, nobody else. So no excuse offered or needed.

[idb]

The issue wasn't who got here first :whocares:, it was about defeating and decimating them - totally different things.

Why is it we keep seeing people trying to say this didn't happen and trying to sweep it under the carpet? Isn't this what Maori have been complaining about?

Wellllllllllllll....if they weren't here to begin with, how could they have been defeated and decimated?

[yod]

Actually, you were the one to float that hypothesis, nobody else. So no excuse offered or needed.

ok fine, take it as a question then

do you think it's a reasonable defence?

someone else committed murder so that means I am too.....


good luck with that one

[HTFU]

mathematics is the language of the universe and the only universal one.

And what, you can speak it? I got over 80% in school C maths and science and sat in 1 hour of Maths relief last week thinking what the fuck and why (class looked very similar to the one I sat in in 1993).



science is just a method of learning, and maths simply it’s language. Both are the cornerstones of our civilisation

Thats what my maths and science colleagues and like minded people use to justify their existence in a secondary education system. Preach that shit at Tertiary level where those that are inspired by the cosmos can make that step, ramming it down teenagers throats and then wondering why they are disengaging from it all is plain crazy. We all know its important stuff, but to whom and when we learn its complexities is the big educational issue that we have plain and simply got wrong (for the last 100 years). Sure it works for a few of our schools - The St Peters etc of this world - and why ? because they have the support of families that are not stuck in a cycle of disillusionment passed on from generation to generation.

Oh and try convincing our kids that its important 5th period on a Friday. No thanks I will stick to running around with a ball or teaching them about skin care. Must explain why I can stick to my Health curriculum this last week of term and most maths and science classes are watching spiderman and other videos this week.


The dumbing down of our education system is possibly the biggest threat to our civilisation there has ever been.

It hasn't fucken changed in 400 years, and if you are referring to NCEA thats only been in the last 5. I know plenty of my South Auckland mates 20 years ago that found certain parts of secondary education irrelevant and if we had a poll here I would be highly surprised to find KB people to be any different. Its these irrelevant parts of our school system that create the anti school/learning culture that has always been there but is growing out of control in New Zealand. Some of us are trying our damnedest to change that.


I also think that the biggest factor in Maori success or the lack of it, is their failure in the education system. However, I am unsure as to whether the problem lies with Maori or with the system.

I guess this is why I started down the education argument and away from the treaty as the root of all evil. I for one want to reduce the number of Maori boys who end up in prison, Maori girls who smoke and have children to young bla bla bla. All the stuff that European New Zealanders use as an excuse to say useless nohoper Maarees. Trouble is its not just them going down this path, and I am pretty sure I know why. Anyway you guys can argue how important certain subjects are to an education system that clearly has not worked, ever ( remember scaling, there is a reason they had to do that, we all failed) - but try teaching those important subject, make it hum, get the kids engaged and on board for the learning ride of a life time all for $44000 a year. Go on I dare you.

[Bass]

And what, you can speak it?

Well actually, yes I can and I do every day. But then I earn my living as an engineer




I guess this is why I started down the education argument and away from the treaty as the root of all evil. I for one want to reduce the number of Maori boys who end up in prison, Maori girls who smoke and have children to young bla bla bla. All the stuff that European New Zealanders use as an excuse to say useless nohoper Maarees. Trouble is its not just them going down this path, and I am pretty sure I know why. Anyway you guys can argue how important certain subjects are to an education system that clearly has not worked, ever ( remember scaling, there is a reason they had to do that, we all failed) - but try teaching those important subject, make it hum, get the kids engaged and on board for the learning ride of a life time all for $44000 a year. Go on I dare you.

I suspect that we disagree about less than we agree upon.
However, I also suspect that we will never agree on some things.
I will however, add that the four most competent, most inspiring teachers that I encountered in my entire scholastic career were all maths or science teachers. Moreover, they could inspire students from any ethnic background.
Could I do that? No, not a chance so I reject your dare.

I also look back at the society that I grew up in and it functioned much better than the one I live in today. There was much, much less of all the nasty stuff. Basically people had respect for one another and just got on with it.
So the education system back then must have had something that it lacks now.
I believe that respect was a key element.

[PirateJafa]

Speaking as a New Zealander, I have always felt that sure, the Europeans committed *some* injustices. But at the same time, in return the Maori received a immediate umpteen-thousand-year technological upgrade. I mean, hell they were still beating each other to death with spears and stones and eating each other when the Europeans arrived.

Doesn't that count for something?

Personally I think that the Pakeha are taking it up the arse now, and have been for a loooong time. All the worthwhile claims would have been settled long since. It's only the cashcows that are still being milked now.

[Ocean1]

I suspect that we disagree about less than we agree upon.
However, I also suspect that we will never agree on some things.
I will however, add that the four most competent, most inspiring teachers that I encountered in my entire scholastic career were all maths or science teachers. Moreover, they could inspire students from any ethnic background.
Could I do that? No, not a chance so I reject your dare.

I also look back at the society that I grew up in and it functioned much better than the one I live in today. There was much, much less of all the nasty stuff. Basically people had respect for one another and just got on with it.
So the education system back then must have had something that it lacks now.
I believe that respect was a key element.

Dude you saved me the trouble...

Don't think anyone doubts that it's difficult to inspire and lead today’s kids. Don't think that's the education system's fault either. But, (waiting for that weren't we), just because a thing is difficult doesn't usually mean there's justification to avoid doing it.

As I inferred earlier, it's a cultural attitude, who the fuck wants to be a chemist, engineer, biologist etc etc when the glitterati look down their noses at such. We got a special name for dem eh…Nerds. We’d rather be sports/rock/fashion stars. And if you think teachers, (even the Nerdish) are hard done by in terms of remuneration then consider that their pay is based on that which similar qualifications might gain them in the real world… good but hardly stellar.

Nor do I believe it’s about streaming, a facility with science and maths subjects does not require a high IQ, just a particular way of thinking and discipline. Fuck, there’s that D word again, seems to feature a fair bit when it comes to discussing failure huh? Maori or otherwise, change the way we perceive tech professionals of we’re all in trouble in a few years.

[Toaster]

Wellllllllllllll....if they weren't here to begin with, how could they have been defeated and decimated?

Just for info Decimation came from Roman times. The punishment for failure in battle was to line up the defeated troops and have every tenth soldier killed by the sword. Hence 'deci' being ten.

I suggest a similar approach is needed here for criminals and wet-blanket politically-correct minority-loving benefits and hand-outs for losers brigade.

Would save the hard working middle-class taxpayer billions and then we could pay off our mortgages!!

[The Pastor]

Universities are doing well keeping the gravy trail alive and well. All they need is a constant string of simpletons and it's easy.

THATS MAGUA FOR YOU:niceone:


What I said is far from what we are taught. We had no specific lectures on the treaty, just the one on SILNA (south island landless natives act) and the subsequent claim to the Waitangi Tribunal as a part of challenges to environmental management.

Gravy trail indeed.

RACISM AND POVERTY EXSITED WELL BEFORE THE WHITE PEOPLE SHOWED UP.

IT IS NOT RELEVANT TODAY, YES PEOPLE WERE "WRONGED" BUT THE SOONER THE TREATY IS ABOLISHED AND WE TREAT EVERYONE EQUAL THE BETTER. DEM NIGGAS AINT GOT NO PURE BLOOD IN DEM ANYWAYS. FO REAL.:devil2:

[Ocean1]

Just for info Decimation came from Roman times. The punishment for failure in battle was to line up the defeated troops and have every tenth soldier killed by the sword. Hence 'deci' being ten.

I suggest a similar approach is needed here for criminals and wet-blanket politically-correct minority-loving benefits and hand-outs for losers brigade.

Would save the hard working middle-class taxpayer billions and then we could pay off our mortgages!!

Art the soul of restraint dude, the very font of leniency. Don’t forget the average Legate would have had to remove his boots to count beyond ten. When culling those less savoury than failed soldiers one in ten might represent much the same function as an aperitif, a mere prelude.

[terbang]

I also look back at the society that I grew up in and it functioned much better than the one I live in today. There was much, much less of all the nasty stuff. Basically people had respect for one another and just got on with it.
So the education system back then must have had something that it lacks now.
I believe that respect was a key element.

I believe that we we have an 'angrier' society now and it seems to be getting even grumpier. A lack of respect for others probably comes hand in hand with lack of self respect and self discipline. Therefore we could be dumbing down as well.

As a New Zealander I must acknowledge that there were some serious rip offs in our history that didn't help Maori at all. I am certainly not responsible for the actions of my forebears and cannot turn back the clock. However it would also be fair to say that I may have reaped the benefits of my forebears actions (good or bad ) to an advantage over the descendants of those who were ripped off. It is only reasonable to expect that us, kiwi's who like to promote the ideal of a fair deal, can identify and sort out the real rip offs of the past. Sounds normal to me except I struggle with the question of, when is the cut off point between undoing the past and letting it go and just getting over it. 60 odd years after WW2 we are over the Nazis, as are Germans. There has to be a time to say 'when'.
The Treaty is an old document that was fairly hastily drawn up and I reckon it has done it's dash. Its now obsolete in the 21st century and appears to have become a painful and expensive exercise in semantics. It now gets commonly used as a guilt prodding gravy train, rather than an agreement. This seems to be creating a greater void between the different peoples rather than decreasing it, which I suspect was the original intent of the treaty... Time to put a match to it and start again I'd say. This will mean give and take on both sides of the fence (both Maori and Non Maori). Now is that possible?

[ManDownUnder]

Time to put a match to it and start again I'd say. This will mean give and take on both sides of the fence (both Maori and Non Maori). Now is that possible?

Yes - create a constitution - a superior document which recognises the Treaty, but puts it in it's place... 160 years ago.

A constitution is a living document, subject to amendments and able to take into account growth without fanciful notions on how to interpret it (i.e. the clause in the Treaty that somehow gives ownership or stewardship of the air above the land to Maori... being liberally translated to be Ownership of the radio frequencies)

I can see how they got there, but if that's what was mean then radio waves should have been specifically mentioned in the original document... y'know - 40 years before they were discovered.

[Bass]

I believe that we we have an 'angrier' society now and it seems to be getting even grumpier. A lack of respect for others probably comes hand in hand with lack of self respect and self discipline. Therefore we could be dumbing down as well.

As a New Zealander I must acknowledge that there were some serious rip offs in our history that didn't help Maori at all. I am certainly not responsible for the actions of my forebears and cannot turn back the clock. However it would also be fair to say that I may have reaped the benefits of my forebears actions (good or bad ) to an advantage over the descendants of those who were ripped off. It is only reasonable to expect that us, kiwi's who like to promote the ideal of a fair deal, can identify and sort out the real rip offs of the past. Sounds normal to me except I struggle with the question of, when is the cut off point between undoing the past and letting it go and just getting over it. 60 odd years after WW2 we are over the Nazis, as are Germans. There has to be a time to say 'when'.
The Treaty is an old document that was fairly hastily drawn up and I reckon it has done it's dash. Its now obsolete in the 21st century and appears to have become a painful and expensive exercise in semantics. It now gets commonly used as a guilt prodding gravy train, rather than an agreement. This seems to be creating a greater void between the different peoples rather than decreasing it, which I suspect was the original intent of the treaty... Time to put a match to it and start again I'd say. This will mean give and take on both sides of the fence (both Maori and Non Maori). Now is that possible?

I'm not totally in agreement with you here but I'll go along with most of it.

I think that the way in which our society has changed most in the last 40 years and which is also relevant to this thread, is in the field of people's rights.
It seems to me that a large and growing segment of our population knows all about their rights and how to claim them.
It also seems to me that what is pretty much always forgotten is that no-one has any rights at all unless someone else takes responsibility. Further, that those of us who take responsibility and make it possible for people to have rights to claim, are getting trampled underfoot in the rush.

[COP_B8]

Maori Business and Commercial Law? What a fucken joke.

This country makes me sick.

Mind explaining........

[COP_B8]

I wonder if Cop B8 is going to use any of this material spoken by "real" NZers in his research paper?

Yes I will be, I too am also a "real" New Zealander although am unsure what you were aluding too there.

I have similar opinions to alot of the comments on here, however feel the only way too effect any change is to actually study and learn about everything from both sides of the coin, I am one of only a handful of non-maori in the Maori Business programme and continually challenge some of the one sided teaching that goes on.

[MSTRS]

Mind explaining........

You don't know Finn very well, do you? Besides, what's to explain? Business is business, just as is Commercial Law....what the fuck has ethnicity got to do with it?
Unless you want to use traditional Maori designs (say) and need to get around the minefield of intellectual property rights.

[Str8 Jacket]

See im a New Zealander.... My father is Maori and my mother is English, not quite sure what that makes me?? That's what part of the problem is, IMO. Many NZers have a tiny amount of maori in them and prob wouldnt know....


As for the treaty, I havent got to many thoughts on it. Im sick of hearing about though, I know that much!

[Finn]

Mind explaining........

Yeah, it's that sickly feeling in your stomach that makes you heave its contents up involuntarily.

[COP_B8]

Yeah, it's that sickly feeling in your stomach that makes you heave its contents up involuntarily.

And this is bought on from Universities offering courses in Maori Business and Commercial Law how........... generally its alcohol that does it for me!

[surfchick]

Hi there, I am completing a research paper...
If anyone has an opinion I would appreciate your comments, and also if you could please identify yourself as Maori, Pakeha, etc......


Cheers in Advance

pakeha - moved to NZ in the late 1980's from northern ireland
I lecture in Otara - Vis. arts. The treaty is a huge part of our job interview process (its one of the 6 interview questions) and inflects or daily teaching reality in many ways becuase of the strongly PI and Maori make-up of our classes. I percieve the treaty to be a extremely important document - (although there is debate around the details and circumstances of the signing and working inconsistancies...) for diffferent reasons than the kiwi norm. probably. I believe it to be so super duper important as it is a site of discussion and negotiation between government and Maori. Some of the ***massive and inconcievable attrocities committed in the land wars, in the systematic destruction of the Maori language (ie not able to learn in Maori at school) and in other land confiscation were always going to create generational pain, passed on and on. The treaty has meant there is a forum of negotition in place in NZ -a situation which was never ever the case in Northern Ireland. With the troubles there was no sustained "site" for dialogue and money compensation in the way the treaty is the basis for dialogue here (so we instead had civil war...which has now quited back to an environment in which there is nothing BUT argument and dialogue... you can't win...). I actually believe it is the treaty that has brought us back from the brink... a valve if you like

In terms of the treaty's application at work it's main implications allow in supporting Maori social structures in an otherwise european university structure of learning- including having whanau present at certain art-crits (which has also facilitated other ethnicities bring in their support people) etc and also being flexible about the use of maori language in essays and seminar presentations (which we support by getting in a Maori language speaking assessor since my te reo Maori is basic!) pretty low key and easy to manage in alot of ways.

I must say I'm surprised at some of the blank dismissals in this thread :( as it's a complex legacy the treaty has had... but I guess the arts have been wrangling with the ins and outs of representation (as in art images) of Maori in many ways that other professions don't... as we've got some pretty **cken fab Maori artists about like Lisa Reihana working with how Maori are imaged in a broader sense... thinking of the recent Digital Marae series

[COP_B8]

Only fair I put my comment in:

Similar to some,

There are a substantial number of grievances that are in direct contravention of the Treaty of Waitangi, mainly in the 1800's and early 1900's, grievances more than just blankets and muskets exchanged for land. Often land was stolen, acquired 'legally' through legislation enacted for the sole purpose of acquiring land, gifted for schools, hospitals, security etc.... but never used for that purpose, as well as many other methods.

These actions provide grounds for claims in the present day to which claims are being acknowledged and settled, often these settlement payouts provide solid financial basis for iwi and they have become very successful for it (Nga Tahu) and I agree that these claims should be acknowledged, settled and then moved on from as is currently occuring [With a timeframe]

I also agree, in part, that SOME of the social disadvantages Maori suffer from now are a resulty of a system that is ill catered for Maori culture and as a result Maori tend to fall off the rails, at a higher rate than Non-Maori.
HOWEVER
In providing Iwi with a substantial asset base (170 million in some cases) this should provide the ability for iwi to affect these changes internally and be the deciders of their own future.

I also disagree with the way the Treaty has been manipulated to cater for Claims that are so far fetched they only create a further us and them mentality amongst all New Zealanders.

Thus in going forward, I feel all Treaty Settlements (genuine) should be analysed, negotiated and settled within a set time frame, and the money that is dispersed audited to ensure that it is being used to the maximum advantage of all Iwi members, however the reality is is that the so called full and final settlements that are being paid out for WILL NOT be the last that is heard off.

In terms of the Treaty Itself, it is to ambiguous a document to be afforded any future significant legal or social significance

The reality is that the Treaty has no legal status beyond the references to it in legislation (The Principles of the Treaty.......) and the main reason that Claims are occuring is social concience, there have been bills before Parliament to scrap any reference to it in legislation and off course Don Brash's Orewa Speech, so as soon as the 'Blankets and Muskets' mentality grows large enough it could be scrapped by a government with the stroke of a pen, It only takes 51% off the population to agree to something in an opinion poll for political parties to suddenly step up and take action (look at Global Warming) What is needed is Education!

I cant be bothered proof reading for grammar or spelling but thats my 2c worth!

[terbang]

There are a substantial number of grievances that are in direct contravention of the Treaty of Waitangi, mainly in the 1800's and early 1900's, grievances more than just blankets and muskets exchanged for land. Often land was stolen, acquired 'legally' through legislation enacted for the sole purpose of acquiring land, gifted for schools, hospitals, security etc.... but never used for that purpose, as well as many other methods.



I believe a lot of this is well documented albeit by the scoundrels themselves.
Like a lot of the worlds written history, it is written by the victors. In this case it was the European way of life that became, for want of a better word, the winner. Hence the 'well they ate the Moriori' and muskets and blankets justification still prevalent among many European New Zealanders.
What is the the current race or origin of New Zealanders? It is changing rapidly, the old simple and traditional Maori/Pakeha (referring to Europeans) distinction is no longer quite so defined with the large influx of Asian and other Polynesian people to New Zealand. Sure the treaty is between the Crown (the poms) and the Maoris, but is the crown now a fair or accurate representation of us non Maori Kiwis anymore? We are also part of the commonwealth which seems to be much further over the horizon now than before.

[COP_B8]

I believe a lot of this is well documented albeit by the scoundrels themselves..

No, alot of the theft/taking/acquiring (descibe how you please) of land back then was very well documentented by the Crown, The New Zealand Company (original 'settlers' and land 'acquirers' before the crown), The Native Land Courts, Survey Companys, Churches........ guess they didnt envisige this all coming about, also very plain for all to see in some of the Legislation that was created.

[terbang]

No, alot of the theft/taking/acquiring (descibe how you please) of land back then was very well documentented by the Crown, The New Zealand Company (original 'settlers' and land 'acquirers' before the crown), The Native Land Courts, Survey Companys, Churches........ guess they didnt envisige this all coming about, also very plain for all to see in some of the Legislation that was created.

So the victors would say. Perhaps the word scoundrels is a bit strong but you could not discount collusion between the various 'interested' European parties such as the Crown, to make the deal work in their favour. At that time Maori values were considerably different to the capitalist values of Europeans and their understanding of land ownership was clearly different. Easy pickings I would suspect.

[Meanie]

I'm a New Zealander.
Rip the fkn thing up. Remove all the seperatism. Declare a Bill of Rights, where all citizens are treated equally.

Fuck yea......... Im with you Treat everyone with equality Im sick of the racist bullshit our government and others stir up

[smoky]

I don't think I have enough knowledge, yet, to form a complete opinion on it.

Don't let that stop you, it doesn't stop any one else from expressing their views on KB, ignorant rants are the preferred on anything to do with the Treaty.


I am trying to establish opinions from a broad range of society

Won't get much of that on here - just extreme opinion and some whipped up hysteria. All good fun.

[H00dz]

Firstly I am Maori ….

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that there has been wrong doing and that reparations were needed to right the “Sins of our fathers” (well your fathers actually ….oops I forgot about that “Moriori” incident…. maybe my fathers as well) but I am equally mystified with the “how much” and “how long” the atonements should continue…….(we do need to move on…. no argument from me).

Personally I think that it is the nature of man to dominate others who are weaker or different (take the All blacks and the Aussies – we’ve been dominating those pricks for years!!!). My personal take on this whole Treaty issue is “We lost, you won end of story”!!…

History clearly shows that the English were advantaged in every facet and that Maori were never going to be allowed to retain such a valuable piece of real estate such as New Zealand. (If it hadn’t been the English It would have been some other European super power of the time).

No doubt if the situation had been reversed I’m sure we’d be here having the same discussion except you’d all be on the dole collecting welfare and I’d have a better bike then my beat up “89” FJ1200.

For those out there who have expressed strong opinions about Maori “leeching off the system” and waiting for their “handouts” I think there is truth with many of your comments. I agree that there are groups out there who are content to play their roles as “victims”.

What really pisses me off is why are you all so upset with this situation?.

Dam the Treaty!!! I couldn’t care less about it, the English certainly didn’t.

I implore you don’t speak from ignorance and make uninformed snipes…do some real research, as painful or revealing as it maybe you would clearly see that system was designed to do exactly what it has achieved, which was to “dis-empower” maori as a race and implement social reforms as a means to create a lower class society similar to that modeled in England at the time.

Do you honestly believe Maori were that “backward and uncultured” that we willingly embraced our position as "lower class" throughout the early period of the colonization of New Zealand ……Please get over yourselves!!!!

The real crime is NOT that you beat us up and took our land…. it’s NOT that you gave us a treaty document with no genuine intention of honouring it principals.
The real crime is when all is said and done, there has been no GENUINE effort to make restoration until in recent years !!!


What surprises me is how many of you have identified yourselves as New Zealanders Why is this?.....why are you not English or Scottish or what ever race that you come from? do have no sense of identity ? Is there some disgrace to be linked to your heritage?…..

I am Maori

and proud !!!!


P.S Debate and discussion is a good thing and forums like these are great vehicles to voice how we really feel with little risk personal conflict or repercussion however for this to be really useful for everyone it needs to conclude with

M = Mutual
A = Agreement/Acknowledgement
O = of
R = Respected
I = Ideas


Otherwise it would be like a bunch of old farts (myself included) and Uni Geeks with too much f*****g time on our hands sitting around procrastinating!!!.:oi-grr:

[candor]

Non Maori need to first comprehend and second honor it, Maori need to not abuse it and to use it as a means to improve their peoples lot (restoratively, to restore dignity).

Either side not doing its bit will see NZ turn into a worse hellhole within forty years - there will be greater than the current white (and Maori) flight, and the country will be poorer for that.

I think it is shallow to just dismiss the subject as an aggravating nuisance. It is a double edged sword and has been powerfully used by some to achieve good. Others not, don't judge the treaties merits on the doings of a few loose cannons.

Hoodz - when Europeans came the Maori had an even stricter class system than we did yanno. We did not introduce that concept! There was plenty of "lower class" Maori before we ever got here and the Maori class system was well acknowledged. I've seen much evidence it still eists too - far more thasn our class system. Those who came here actually tried to be rid of the class system. That is how "Pakeha" Kiwis are different to POMs as you'd see if you spent a little time in London today.

[peasea]

There was a war. We won, sit down and face the front.

It's about survival of the fittest, conquest and all that.

Guns versus sticks.

Influenza versus picking your arse.

The original post went along the lines of; "get a bit of a discussion going about its relevance" (meaning the tweety). It's done that but, as far as I can see anything that went down in 1840 or thereabouts has little relevance in '07.

As Henry Ford said; "History is bunk."

[Conquiztador]

As someone who came from a Nordic country here over 20 years ago and stayed, I have taken interest in this Treaty issue. I have closely looked at it from different angles and found that there is many gaps here.

- What is the real Treay document is still debated. There is apperently at least three versions. Also the translations between Maori and English do not come out the same.

- The Treaty was (as far as I have been able to establish) requested by the Maori representatives to provide them with some security as it was becoming clear that they were loosing badly.

- Value of land has changed in a big way. Even 20 years ago where I now live you could not give away land. True! People were sitting with titles and paying rates. They did not want to pay the rates and so wanted to give the land away. But there were no takers. Today a 1/4 acre section goes for $300K. Wonder what it was worth in 1860? I am sure that some of the ones that wanted to get rid of their land in 1980 would happily have taken a blanket for it...

- Value and look at things change. Something that is considered worthless today might be worth a fortune in 100 years. Lets say that I paint. Someone comes for a visit that knows value when they see it. That one offers me a can of beans and a sleeping bag. I am really hungry and have not had enough money to pay for the power, and so the power has been cut resulting in me not being able to keep the heater on. I happily accept his offer and he smiles as he walks away with one of my best paintings. Thirty years later, when I am famous, I see my paiting for sale for $1 million. Do I now have the right to claim it back (or the $1 million it sells for) as I consider my self tricked in to handing it over for a can of beans and a sleeping bag?

- There was at least one "Maori" tribe who were red haired and white skinned...

- Who are the current Maoris who have the right to the claims? What makes them Maori? Their blood lines? Their subscription to the cause? Their beliefs? Personally I have problems thinking of one Maori I know who can claim more then 50% actual Maori blood in their veins. Or perhaps that is not important?

And I identify my self as Viking.

[Ocean1]

What surprises me is how many of you have identified yourselves as New Zealanders Why is this?.....why are you not English or Scottish or what ever race that you come from? do have no sense of identity ? Is there some disgrace to be linked to your heritage?…

My hand’s up here. It's a matter of comparing apples with apples. You've called yourself a Maori, so allow me to explain why I call myself a New Zealander.

Like you my genetic background is hugely mixed. In my case it's a blend representing pretty much all of Europe, and that more than 7 generations ago. Genetically I'm Caucasian. Genetically you're almost certainly Caucasian/Mongoloid. You'll notice that doesn't define either of our cultures.

If you identify yourself as Maori it's because you feel an affinity with those of that culture. I feel an affinity with New Zealanders, all of 'em, so culturally I’m a New Zealander. Simple really.

The suggestion that my heritage might be worthy of disgrace is provocative, designed I suspect to demean or belittle. I’ll not take that bait, other than to suggest that such is the way of the insecure.

[H00dz]

Fairly said....thanks for your response I could not for the life of me understand the reasoning until now......am I a New Zealander ABSOLUTELY !!! like you and others ......there is no difference!! only in our minds

[scott411]

My hand’s up here. It's a matter of comparing apples with apples. You've called yourself a Maori, so allow me to explain why I call myself a New Zealander.

Like you my genetic background is hugely mixed. In my case it's a blend representing pretty much all of Europe, and that more than 7 generations ago. Genetically I'm Caucasian. Genetically you're almost certainly Caucasian/Mongoloid. You'll notice that doesn't define either of our cultures.

If you identify yourself as Maori it's because you feel an affinity with those of that culture. I feel an affinity with New Zealanders, all of 'em, so culturally I’m a New Zealander. Simple really.

The suggestion that my heritage might be worthy of disgrace is provocative, designed I suspect to demean or belittle. I’ll not take that bait, other than to suggest that such is the way of the insecure.

X2

well said,

[Bass]

In discussions of this type, much is made of the fact that the use of the Maori language was at one time, firmly suppressed in our schools. I see it mentioned again in this thread.
However, I am led to believe that this measure was instituted at the request of senior Maori of the time, because they saw fluency in English as necessary for their people to progress in the world that had overtaken them.
I don't know whether this true or not, but I suspect that it is and let's assume for a moment that it is. I have read the names of those purported to have requested it.
If so, why is it almost never mentioned??
I suspect because it would destroy the arguments of those who use this piece of history for their own ends.
Further, is it also not possible that those Maori were right about English in the context of their time?

[MSTRS]

In discussions of this type, much is made of the fact that the use of the Maori language was at one time, firmly suppressed in our schools. I see it mentioned again in this thread.
However, I am led to believe that this measure was instituted at the request of senior Maori of the time, because they saw fluency in English as necessary for their people to progress in the world that had overtaken them.
I don't know whether this true or not, but I suspect that it is and let's assume for a moment that it is. I have read the names of those purported to have requested it.
If so, why is it almost never mentioned??
I suspect because it would destroy the arguments of those who use this piece of history for their own ends.
Further, is it also not possible that those Maori were right about English in the context of their time?

I thought it was a natural progression (of subjugation perhaps) after outlawing the Tohunga system...

[MSTRS]

Fairly said....thanks for your response I could not for the life of me understand the reasoning until now......am I a New Zealander ABSOLUTELY !!! like you and others ......there is no difference!! only in our minds

Precisely, brother.
Ethnically, I am overwhelmingly Caucasian (primarily Scottish) with a little Negro thrown in about 5 generations ago.
On my father's side (of Scottish stock), my NZ family goes back to Wellington 1840. My father raided Scotland for a wife in 1955. I was born here. That makes me a New Zealander before any other consideration.

[terbang]

What surprises me is how many of you have identified yourselves as New Zealanders Why is this?.....


Good question and I had to think about that. Firstly, lets not forget that all people living in NZ have some sort of migrant history. Mine being from Scotland and Maori being from Asia through Polynesia. Many others are now settling from elsewhere in the world too. Back when they were nailing JC to a cross the place was empty and up for grabs. Maori got here first but however the Europeans came along later with their conquer the waves, conquer the world view. The Maori for many reasons, including the sheer number of European migrants, just couldn't stop them and the Euros stayed. So here we all are with a 160 year old treaty as well.
Like a lot of us, I went and had an OE in the UK. Took a one year contract flying for British Airways and was initially based out of Edinburgh. On one trip the Scottish copilot that I was flying with asked me 'So how do you see yourself now, a Scotsman who has returned or a New Zealander visiting?'
I remember feeling a bit miffed that he had little concept of a New Zealander and his patronizing tone hinted to a view of his own superiority. We looked the same, spoke a similar language but in many ways we were quite different and I realized that time, location and perhaps the osmosis of mixing with other cultures had indeed made a difference. A New Zealand difference perhaps. So why do I call myself a New Zealander and not a Scotsman? It is because I was born here, my parents were born here but more importantly, I wish for a future here. To have a successful future we need to be all looking forward using the knowledge of our history as a lesson rather than dwelling on it and squabbling over what happened and going backwards. Fix the rip offs? Yes, but we must remember that the past is just that, the past. Its done, lets move on!

[idb]

In discussions of this type, much is made of the fact that the use of the Maori language was at one time, firmly suppressed in our schools. I see it mentioned again in this thread.
However, I am led to believe that this measure was instituted at the request of senior Maori of the time, because they saw fluency in English as necessary for their people to progress in the world that had overtaken them.
I don't know whether this true or not, but I suspect that it is and let's assume for a moment that it is. I have read the names of those purported to have requested it.
If so, why is it almost never mentioned??
I suspect because it would destroy the arguments of those who use this piece of history for their own ends.
Further, is it also not possible that those Maori were right about English in the context of their time?

There were likely Maori that were in favour of this.
There were probably also Maori that liked eating sausages, which proves that all Maori would rather eat European food.
There would have been Maori that wore hats, others that rode horses, some that lived in houses, others learned to read poetry, cook with pots, use kerosene lamps etc.
Because of this it is clear that all Maori wanted to ditch their culture and heritage and become Europeans.

[MSTRS]

Anyway...what we call ourselves is slightly moot. We all must have a passport to travel the world. I don't see anyone described on one of those as being Maori/Pakeha/Whatever. We are New Zealanders. Except for Dover, of course.

[u4ea]

EUROPEAN, Maori are not indigenous at all, the treaty is no longer valid,and never should of been, there were never any bounday pegs the mongrels just waved their arm's and said we own that to the top of the hill and out to the sea, that is all ours BRO there are no Maoris left in this country , most are European but some are as brown as throw backs, those wanting the treaty rectified are a bunch of bludgers wanting to increase their own stake in life, they couldn't give a shit about anyone else,the brains of a white man and the cunning of a black are a bad combination.....

yer it has just created the GIMME attitude..the thought of being hard done by and the idea to just sit back and wait for someone to hand over the goods as its easier to complain than go out and make a life.For me the treaty means NOTHING.I was born in New Zealand and am not english nor pakeha.My ancestors are nordic.I am very proud of my heritage but get pissed off when I am expected to respect someone elses rights and rituals and mine are totally disregarded.We are all governed by the 'crown' however so those laws ultimatly dictate.

[oldrider]

pakeha - moved to NZ in the late 1980's from northern ireland
I lecture in Otara - Vis. arts. The treaty is a huge part of our job interview process (its one of the 6 interview questions) and inflects or daily teaching reality in many ways becuase of the strongly PI and Maori make-up of our classes. I percieve the treaty to be a extremely important document - (although there is debate around the details and circumstances of the signing and working inconsistancies...) for diffferent reasons than the kiwi norm. probably. I believe it to be so super duper important as it is a site of discussion and negotiation between government and Maori. Some of the ***massive and inconcievable attrocities committed in the land wars, in the systematic destruction of the Maori language (ie not able to learn in Maori at school) and in other land confiscation were always going to create generational pain, passed on and on. The treaty has meant there is a forum of negotition in place in NZ -a situation which was never ever the case in Northern Ireland. With the troubles there was no sustained "site" for dialogue and money compensation in the way the treaty is the basis for dialogue here (so we instead had civil war...which has now quited back to an environment in which there is nothing BUT argument and dialogue... you can't win...). I actually believe it is the treaty that has brought us back from the brink... a valve if you like

In terms of the treaty's application at work it's main implications allow in supporting Maori social structures in an otherwise european university structure of learning- including having whanau present at certain art-crits (which has also facilitated other ethnicities bring in their support people) etc and also being flexible about the use of maori language in essays and seminar presentations (which we support by getting in a Maori language speaking assessor since my te reo Maori is basic!) pretty low key and easy to manage in alot of ways.

I must say I'm surprised at some of the blank dismissals in this thread :( as it's a complex legacy the treaty has had... but I guess the arts have been wrangling with the ins and outs of representation (as in art images) of Maori in many ways that other professions don't... as we've got some pretty **cken fab Maori artists about like Lisa Reihana working with how Maori are imaged in a broader sense... thinking of the recent Digital Marae series

Don't pull that bullshit about the loss of the language being because of the Pakeha, with me, I was here and I had my arse kicked along with the Maori kids for talking Maori!

Not by Pakeha but by Maori parents and Komatua, they wanted their kids speaking "English"!

Latter day Maori and immigrants just love to rabbit on with that bullshit as if they want us pakeha to go off on some bullshit guilt trip, well you don't know what you are talking about. Pissed off, John.

[Ocean1]

Don't pull that bullshit about the loss of the language being because of the Pakeha, with me, I was here and I had my arse kicked along with the Maori kids for talking Maori!

Not by Pakeha but by Maori parents and Komatua, they wanted their kids speaking "English"!

Latter day Maori and immigrants just love to rabbit on with that bullshit as if they want us pakeha to go off on some bullshit guilt trip, well you don't know what you are talking about. Pissed off, John.

Settle dude. :)

I do remember getting caught fishing instead of learning history by one of the local Maori wardens when I were a nipper. He kicked my arse all the way home, giving me a history lesson of his own on the way. :laugh:

Do I see a pattern here? Is it the academics that seem to be defending the treaty and the rest ambivalent or hostile? Interesting, should have set it up as a poll, with profession and perhaps age included...

[idb]

I do remember getting caught fishing instead of learning history by one of the local Maori wardens when I were a nipper. He kicked my arse all the way home, giving me a history lesson of his own on the way. :laugh:


Sure he wasn't discussing your whakapapa???!!!

[idb]

Don't pull that bullshit about the loss of the language being because of the Pakeha, with me, I was here and I had my arse kicked along with the Maori kids for talking Maori!

Not by Pakeha but by Maori parents and Komatua, they wanted their kids speaking "English"!

Latter day Maori and immigrants just love to rabbit on with that bullshit as if they want us pakeha to go off on some bullshit guilt trip, well you don't know what you are talking about. Pissed off, John.

Crikey Pissed Off John!!!

People have to be careful about assuming their own experiences or acquired "facts" to be universal truths.
That has got to be a huge part of the problem with the whole debate.

[Ocean1]

Sure he wasn't discussing your whakapapa???!!!

No doubt about it. The provenance and exact attributes of my ancestors was most certainly covered in some depth. Although he somehow managed that in a way that failed to raise my mother’s ire. She thanked him, took to my arse some more with a wooden spoon and delivered yet more educational gems. All this a mere prelude to the main course, administered by the old man when he got home from work. My arse was sore for days but I learned a great deal about the true nature of crime and punishment.

[idb]

My arse was sore for days but I learned a great deal about the true nature of crime and punishment.
That if you get caught for a crime and are suitably punished it may result in a sore arse?
I'm sure many are learning that lesson every day.

[Conquiztador]

She thanked him, took to my arse some more with a wooden spoon .

She ate your arse?? Bloody savages!!!

[Ocean1]

That if you get caught for a crime and are suitably punished it may result in a sore arse?
I'm sure many are learning that lesson every day.

Not legally of late.


She ate your arse?? Bloody savages!!!

She pounded on it until the fucken spoon broke dude!!!
My brother framed it.

[Grahameeboy]

im a european and my opinion is.


FUCK THE TREATY

Although I would not put it that way, I agree Sir Jim.

It was 150 years ago in a different time / society. We need to move on and the only relevance I can see is that every Authority has to have a Maori bit in its Mission Statement.

Historically and Culturally it is important.

[Conquiztador]

Not legally of late.



She pounded on it until the fucken spoon broke dude!!!
My brother framed it.

Your arse is framed???

[smoky]

There was a war. We won, sit down and face the front.
It's about survival of the fittest, conquest and all that.
Guns versus sticks.
Influenza versus picking your arse.


re writing a bit of history are we?

"a war"
"we won"
You seriously need to do some reading P

[H00dz]

So why do I call myself a New Zealander and not a Scotsman? It is because I was born here, my parents were born here but more importantly, I wish for a future here. To have a successful future we need to be all looking forward using the knowledge of our history as a lesson rather than dwelling on it and squabbling over what happened and going backwards. Fix the rip offs? Yes, but we must remember that the past is just that, the past. Its done, lets move on!

Bro that was an Awesome Response!! cheers ....makes me hope for a better future for ALL "New Zealanders"