Blipping The Throttle

[Shade]

Man, I went for an awesome Solo ride today, had some awesome fun through really twisty roads....

I was mainly focusing on later braking and faster corner entry speed, however one aspect i feel i need help with is blipping the throttle -

I find when im hammering into the corner, brake, change down - the rear unbalences and feels unsettled when im tipping in. Now i realise i need to blip, but i find it really hard to brake and blip smoothly without releasing the brake a little, which lurches me forward.

Can anyone offer advice ?

I have tried 4 fingers on brake lever and using the inner thumb to blip, which isnt working well, and last 3 fingers on brake lever, with index and thumb on brake lever.

The biggest problem is when i go to blip the throttle, i release the brake a little :/

Cheers
Shade.

[vtec]

I've had the same problem too. But I'm getting better, almost doing it subconsciously now. My advice to you is to keep blipping the throttle even when you are just driving normally, and it will get easier. It's just like sleight of hand tricks, the more you practice the better you get. You're not gonna get it perfect from just doing it on a couple of rides.

Personally I keep all of my fingers on the brake, otherwise like you say, you'll ease off the brake a bit. And I sort twist my wrist while stretching my fingers out but keeping the same pressure on the brake. Sounds tricky but perserverance will yield results. Just some other advice, if you're trying something that you know you'll probably get wrong it's best not to do it in the wet. Surprisingly that's not obvious to everybody.

Good luck with it. :niceone:

[Hitcher]

Nobody ever broke a gearbox or missed a change by not blipping. Just concentrate on getting your bike on the ROAD line!

[F5 Dave]

The ‘blipping' is more to match the revs with the new revs required for the lower gear ratio when you change down. In combination releasing the clutch slower will smooth the transition. Mainly the clutch will negate the need to blip in most cases, though some bikes differ.

My only suggestion is spend some time in the carpark slow riding. Learning to drag the brakes but not stall it balancing the throttle against the clutch & brakes will help separate the functions.

[Hoon]

You need to learn how to blip and brake at the same time. To start off with, make sure your throttle cables and brake lever pivots are nicely lubed as you want them to be as smooth as possible. Then find a nice quiet straight and nail it till 6th gear and then brake hard, clutch in, blip, downshift, clutch out, etc until you are back in first gear all the while maintaining max front brake (like braking for a hairpin). Do a U turn, rinse and repeat until you've had enough.

The man Keith Code himself talks about this in more detail here (http://www.superbikeschool.com/bbs/index.php?act=ST&f=11&t=258&).

This is something I've been working on (as well as being smooth with my brake/throttle transitions) but must admit I haven't made much progress. This is mainly due to the fact Puke doesn't really have any hard braking/downshift turns other than the hairpin.
I also find cranking up my idle speed to 2500-3000RPM helps keep the revs up during off throttle periods and makes things smoother. Also gets rid of the drive train/chain shunt when getting back on the gas again mid turn.

[scroter]

The higher your revs the more important it is to blip your throttle. the rear wheel problems are because the engine speed and rear wheel speed dont match for the gear your trying to change into, thats why you blip the throttle when you change down so that it increases the engine speed to somewhere near the correct spot for the gear your changing into. two things try actually slowing the bike down a bit before you change so you dont over rev, and also maybe 2 fingers on the brake lever should give you better control off the throttle. i use my first two fingers on the brake lever and the other two on the throttle and have no problems with braking, in fact a friend of mine brakes pretty reasonably with just his little finger, i dont know how mine cant even reach the lever.

one thing you said stood out. I was mainly focusing on later braking and faster corner entry speed, however one aspect i feel i need help with is blipping the throttle - on the road you shouldnt really worry avout your corner entry speed too much, its easy to get into trouble this way, focus on corner exit. i try not to use my brakes on the road that much id just rather save them for when i really need them.

[Shade]

Cheers guys -

Yeah the first thing i did Hoon was hunt out that article and re-read it. Makes sense in my head, but when i blip i slip on the brake and its frustrating :P

Guess just need more practice aye.

[Mr Skid]

I found adjusting my brake lever helped a good deal. Initially it was set as far out as it went, and I brought it back in 3-4 rotations of the adjusment wheel iirc.

This meant that my hand wasn't spread as wide when braking and blipping at the same time, which allowed more accurate control of the throttle with my thumb.

[750Y]

...I was mainly focusing on later braking and faster corner entry speed, however one aspect i feel i need help with is blipping the throttle -

I find when im hammering into the corner, brake, change down...
Can anyone offer advice ? ...

just as a suggestion dude, change down(& blip if You need to) Before you brake for the corner. Generally i believe in doing all your stuff before the corner. slow in, 'fast' out on the road my friend ...but hey what would i know.

[Motu]

Your bike must be in good nick - my front brake levers are so flogged out I can blip the throttle with no dexterity required.I dunno if I could ride a flash bike.

[Teflon]

You should be able to brake with 2 fingers and blip at the same time.

If you learning to ride, i would concentrate more on being smooth and taking correct lines.

[gav]

Hoon, doesnt your ZXR have a slipper type clutch where you can down shift and its designed not to lock the rear wheel, so you can bang down 2-3 gears with out it locking up, only you have to be a little careful when braking really hard as the rear will get quite light.

[Grumpy]

was mainly focusing on later braking and faster corner entry speed, however one aspect i feel i need help with is blipping the throttle


A few years ago I was getting into kart racing and was at that stage where I was trying my hardest to get my lap times down. No matter how hard I tried I just couldn't do it, then came some timely advice.... slow down and you'll get faster...
At first my times got even worse but slowing things down meant that I was concertrating more on technique and it wasn't long before my times came down and was up with the big boys.
This maybe 4 wheels not 2 but I think the principle is the same.
Get the technique sussed and the rest comes naturally.
I tend to brake with 2 fingers which does make throttle control easier but does make heavy braking a little tougher.

[F5 Dave]

Oh no! not the 2 finger vs 4 finger argument!

On my GasGas Trials bike I use one finger on both clutch & brake.

However on most bikes 1 finger is not enough for adequate stopping if you have to emergency stop. In fact on a lot of bikes 2 is not enough either. Older bikes with less than new brakes will usually require 4 fingers.

On the race track when you know how much you have to brake for a particular corner then you can tailor this. On the road if you are covering your brakes or using 2 fingers ask yourself this.

If someone said brake as quick as a clone of yourself on the same bike & the shortest stop will avoid a car, would you still use 2 fingers?

Some new bikes it won’t matter. But older ones it probably will.

Try braking with 2 fingers & changing to 4 mid stream. It’s pretty hard. On the road I do use 2 fingers often but only if I am confident I will be only adjusting speed & not required to perform a stop.

Are we far enough off the thread yet?

[Hoon]

Hoon, doesnt your ZXR have a slipper type clutch where you can down shift and its designed not to lock the rear wheel, so you can bang down 2-3 gears with out it locking up, only you have to be a little careful when braking really hard as the rear will get quite light.

Yep BATL (B-something A-something torque limiting) and in theory thats what its suppose to do but the back still locks up and skips tho. It'll also send the revs to the limiter too if you get too keen.

[speedpro]

Oh no! not the 2 finger vs 4 finger argument!

Older bikes with less than new brakes will usually require 4 fingers.

Try braking with 2 fingers & changing to 4 mid stream. It’s pretty hard.

Are we far enough off the thread yet?

All good points. On some of the older bikes I've raced 6-8 fingers on the brake would have been about right. Getting levers in the right place, distance from the grip AND how far rotated around the bar are both important to being able to brake hard and steadily while blipping the throttle. It's a good technique to get a handle on doing right. I'd be embarrassed just popping it down through gears.

One thing to watch for is if you adjust your brake lever in and only use two fingers, is if you pull it real hard do you trap the other two fingers?? I had a short lever on my bucket for a while to get round that problem.

If your levers aren't adjustable for span, like mine, you could file the bit that pushes the piston and then glue thin metal strips on the release stop to limit the lever free-play. I had to do that on my McIntosh to get it right.

[Kwaka-Kid]

Paparazzi had a good point shade, like i showed you i have my brake lever set really far in towards the bar, some might say that then i will crush my fingers when i am braking but when properly braking hard i use all the fingers and blip by rolling my thumb/hand.

Works pretty much smooth and never notice problems on many the different bikes i ride.

I will say though that the NC30 has a slipper clutch meaning i can dump it comprativly harder and it wont have such a bite effect. Anyway i dont really think of "blipping" the throttle neither, that requires too much concentration of snapping throttle open and closed real fast and the right amount, i cant explain it but i just decelerate, change down and bring throttle back up and let the throttle off again as im letting the clutch out.

or i can be sloppy as really "use" my slipper clutch, jsut throttle off comlpetely and change down dumping the clutch in each gear, it is still pretty smooth just means a little more wear on the plates i guess?.

[Teflon]

Oh no! not the 2 finger vs 4 finger argument!

On my GasGas Trials bike I use one finger on both clutch & brake.

However on most bikes 1 finger is not enough for adequate stopping if you have to emergency stop. In fact on a lot of bikes 2 is not enough either. Older bikes with less than new brakes will usually require 4 fingers.

On the race track when you know how much you have to brake for a particular corner then you can tailor this. On the road if you are covering your brakes or using 2 fingers ask yourself this.

If someone said brake as quick as a clone of yourself on the same bike & the shortest stop will avoid a car, would you still use 2 fingers?

Some new bikes it won’t matter. But older ones it probably will.

Try braking with 2 fingers & changing to 4 mid stream. It’s pretty hard. On the road I do use 2 fingers often but only if I am confident I will be only adjusting speed & not required to perform a stop.

Are we far enough off the thread yet?

From what i have read he's trying to improve his riding skills.

If you using more than 2 fingers, you have brake probs.

It's obvious from his post he's starting to ride harder. You just don't have enough feel using 4 fingers, your reaction time is to slow if you lose the front, as well as other disavantages like slow downshifts.

When i think about it's quite a scary thought using 4 fingers and riding hard.

[Artifice]

Actually i did break my bike changing down without blipping.
lost second gear for a few months till i got it sorted out. stuffed up the selector and not sure about the cogs. i still just dump her down the gears and let the read end go all squirrelly (shake that ass) lol. i gotta learn to do it right i guess

[TwoSeven]

I dont blip, learned it years ago but find it a wasted effort for my style of riding and I think it slows my gear changes down more than I like.

Dont really suffer the funny back end problem, its just a matter of knowing how to feel the engine with the clutch (inline 4 technique) and using more/less brake. Since I only downshift when the bike is generally upright I cant see the problem with a bit of movement anyhow.

Seems to me that blipping may have been some technique that came out of the US superbike schools - probably why the aussies and yanks like it so much. Maybe it might be a two smoke style as well. But I have no interest in those machines these days :)

[bluninja]

Don't you just brake till you are slowed down enough and then do a block change down to the right gear to go through the corner ? If you are slowed to the right speed before changing down blipping shouldn't matter much.

As for slipper clutches......you can still lock up if you do it visciously enough :wacko: but if you don't have one you can dip the clutcj slightly to get a similar effect.

[F5 Dave]

From what i have read he's trying to improve his riding skills.

If you using more than 2 fingers, you have brake probs.

It's obvious from his post he's starting to ride harder. You just don't have enough feel using 4 fingers, your reaction time is to slow if you lose the front, as well as other disavantages like slow downshifts.

When i think about it's quite a scary thought using 4 fingers and riding hard.

With a newish bike it is easy to be ‘high & mighty’ about brake performance, but the fact remains many older bikes will still stop better with 4 fingers.

As for ‘feel’ when you have heaps of power then yes 2 fingers is probably the best, but when you don’t have heaps of power then more fingers are required so you aren’t just yanking the brake as hard as you can. As for being 'Scary' using 4 fingers, only if you haven't practised. Lot more scary if the bike is not capable of stopping full effort with 2 fingers & that is what you are trying to use. Or maybe everyone should just fit a Brembo goldline set to their old bikes? Speedpro, the quip about 6 or 7 fingers: :killingme

The 3rd line I disagree with.

When you are matching the revs to the gear ratio, if you ask too much by dropping the gears too fast you will encounter gear ‘overlock’. I remember an experiment in mechanical lab where you could drive the big sprocket with the small one as fast as you could, but if you did it the other way the small sprocket would be going hyper speed & the gears locked up, it just got stiff to turn any faster than it wanted.

This is the same thing & will cause stress on the teeth. Also your engine is not a brake. Driving the revs past redline esp with a closed throttle (no cushioning gas as the pistons are forced past TDC) then engine damage is possible.

As in a recent post about covering clutches I said I often go down several gears at a time when racing & braking heavily for a hairpin. I will only part let the clutch out until the speed has dropped enough for the engine to match the gearing & it can be fully released. I certainly don’t do this on the road

[Motu]

Seems to me that blipping may have been some technique that came out of the US superbike schools - probably why the aussies and yanks like it so much. Maybe it might be a two smoke style as well. But I have no interest in those machines these days :)


It comes more from older bikes with slow 4 speed boxes,heavy flywheels and poor clutches - it was important to match engine,gear and road speed,kinda like driving a truck in those days.

[F5 Dave]

It comes more from older bikes with slow 4 speed boxes,heavy flywheels and poor clutches - it was important to match engine,gear and road speed,kinda like driving a truck in those days.

Ohh, Ohh, what’s the procedure to DoubleD’Clutch one of these bikes? ;)

[magnum]

just as a suggestion dude, change down(& blip if You need to) Before you brake for the corner. Generally i believe in doing all your stuff before the corner. slow in, 'fast' out on the road my friend ...but hey what would i know.
same.use 2 fingys :cool:

[badlieutenant]

It comes more from older bikes with slow 4 speed boxes,heavy flywheels and poor clutches - it was important to match engine,gear and road speed,kinda like driving a truck in those days.
didnt even realise thats whats ive been doing all this time. My gear box is from a tractor im sure and real easy to find false neutrals. Thats about the time i learnt about matching revs to gear speed :D Is this something that honda does on most of its bikes ? agricultural gear boxes ?

[Skyryder]

If I have to brake and change down at the same time I use the back brake. This is prior to the corner so there is no problem with the entry. I just like both hands with a firm grip on the bars. I still think that there is too much technical stuff with cornering. Contol the entry and control the exit, just take a line and go for it.

Skyryder

[Motu]

Ohh, Ohh, what’s the procedure to DoubleD’Clutch one of these bikes? ;)

F'sure,f'sure laddie - my 54 BSA I rode through the 70s was originaly a 650 twin and so had a wide ratio box,this was not much of a problem with the OHV singles I ran in it,they were all hotted up with cams and pistons etc - but when I put the 500cc side valve into it,with a whole 13 hp,it soon became something I had to ride around.The gap from 2nd to 3rd was huge,as well as having less HP,the sidevalve was down a couple of thousand rpm - every morning I had to go from 2nd to 3rd on a hill....I would rev the shit out of the old thing,then pull in the clutch,feeling each dog slowly going past....at the same time with my right hand I would move the advance lever back to half retard,the rev drop was too great to allow the motor to run full advance...when I felt the dogs running slow enough I would drop into gear and slog up the hill,bringing the advance up as the revs climbed - a different world eh? I could of put my 350 gearbox into it,they had closer gears,but...well,I never got around to it.This different ratios thing still goes on - my XT400E has closer ratios than the XT600E,the smaller motor can't pull the wide ratios.

My XLV750 has a slow box and massive engine braking,I have to get it just right or I have a big step out on corner entry - in the wet or other slippery conditions I often change down on corner exit,going around in a higher gear,then feeding revs in as I let out the clutch...it's all about keeping up speed and being smooth.

[speedpro]

The fact is that motorcycle gearboxes are constant mesh type with dogs that engage and disengage. Anyone with any mechanical sympathy will blip the throttle. I've got two bikes, one is a lumbering old 4-stroke whose crank alone weighs 18kilos. You have to blip for downchanges or you will have problems with the rear wheel hopping and sliding. The other bike is a 100cc bucket with a very light crank assembly and a close ratio box and you have to blip this when downchanging or you will have problems as well. As F5 says, sometimes you shift down so fast even with blipping the throttle the crank still can't change speed fast enough to match the speed in the new gear and you need to be careful when releasing the clutch. I'm reasonably sure that even on the little bike I would crash if I didn't blip the throttle, it's a definite on the big one.

I think it's a good thing to do. The back-torque limiters built into modern bike clutches means you can get away with not doing it but the stress is still there in the gearbox and to a lesser extent at the tyre.

[Bob]

As you're trying this for the first time, why not separate the two processes to begin with?

If you're at the right revs (we had a conversation about this a while back and the consensus seemed to be ride at about 2/3rds of your rev range) then blipping the throttle and using the engine braking will be fine, so no need to haul on that lever. Most of the time in normal/commuter riding I don't need the brakes at all. Very useful skill for getting tailgaters off your back as well!

Once the idea of blipping for downchanges is firmly in your head, then you can work on brake and blip (best practiced at slow speeds, often when you've been braking to stop and want to blip from 2nd to 1st).

Then when you've got this set of actions down, then you should be able to brake and blip at higher speeds.

Also, as someone else said, worry about sorting out your lines, rather than trying out late braking at this stage. Personally, I can't be bothered with late braking (especially on the road). I'd rather get all that braking and slowing down stuff out of the way, then concentrate on my line into the bend... as has been said here, the "Slow in, Fast out" maxim applies.

No matter what anyone says about Keith Code, his idea of separating out the various sections of taking a corner, practicing each one and then putting them together is an excellent one. I wonder if you're trying to throw everything together (including trying to brake late into a bend) and suffering as a result of 'Too many things to think about' Syndrome?

[cycosis]

To help make this whole sequence smooth i've found that having good condition throttle cables that are well lubricated and a nice responsive,smooth throttle is a major player in this process as well as other related parts under the tank to do with this.Iv'e also had problems with Surface Corrosion that builds up on certain parts,causing very little but just an idea specially on jap imports as old as yours.I've had a few 250 imports and found that carburator and associated parts weren't always in the greatest condition and generally replaced the cables soon after getting the bike.I actually had a throttle cable brake on me at a track day 1 lap into it!.Bike shops get them looking and feeling good enough to sell,they dont like spending to much time and $$ on them as you may know.Pays to take a look if you haven't,you can do all of it yaself with the assistance of silicon spray and every bodys mate Mr 5.56.

[Bonez]

silicon spray and every bodys mate Mr 5.56. Lets not forget Ms WD40 :cool:

[Posh Tourer :P]

I use 4 fingers - and like Motu says - older tractor=need to match revs, otherwise it steps out on dry roads.

Technique is to hold those fingers out there and roll the palm back. Takes a bit of practice, but you get there in the end.

Changing down properly is important for fast corner exit - gotta be in the right gear before you are in the corner so you can power out. And as such you have to blip, because you are going into a gear where you will be at high revs - ie lotsa engine braking - and it'll step out on you if you dont. Especially when the rear is already light from braking...

[White trash]

Blip, Blip, Blip........Whaaaaaaaaaaa.........Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaa..........Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Gixxer six off the lights on Kent Tce on Friday night.

[Posh Tourer :P]

Blip blip... blip blip blip blip.. boooaaaarrrrr (sound of bogged down engine) booooooooaaaaaarrrr Shit I'm doing 100..


TS on the CBR1100XX....

You dont need to wind up the rubber band on that one mate...

[vifferman]

My gear box is from a tractor im sure and real easy to find false neutrals. Thats about the time i learnt about matching revs to gear speed :D Is this something that honda does on most of its bikes ? agricultural gear boxes ?Yeah, they're not as smooth as say, a Suzuki gearbox. However, having said that, there shouldn't be too many false neutrals or jumping out of gear; this can indicate worn gear forks are damaged dogs. I've had 6 Hondas, and they all had various degrees of dogginess to the gear change, which I enhanced by being a gearbox/clutch wrecker.:wacko:
The VTR is the best so far - no false neutrals, and I can avoid the 1st/2nd clunk now by riding around it: I either change early, change at high revs, or change under power. The worst is changing at mid-revs or slowish speed.

There are things you can do about it: keeping your chain well-lubed and adjusted, replacing worn cush rubbers, modifying your gear-changing actions, or fitting a kit like the one from Factory. This has a stronger detent spring, and uses ball bearings to make sure each change is positive. They are available for the VFR (despite what it says on their website), and relatively easy to fit. http://www.factorypro.com/products/shift.html
Wish I'd had one on my VFR...

Bonez / cycosis: While silicon sprays can help to loosen things up, their lubricating properties aren't great, so it pays to use decent oils or greases. I believe that WD40 / CRC5-56 can actually make things worse on modern cables, which have a nylon liner, rather than the plain wound metal one of the olde days, so it pays to pick your lubricants carefully, and turf cables once they're getting a bit troublesome.

[Pwalo]

Yeah, they're not as smooth as say, a Suzuki gearbox.

Bonez / cycosis: While silicon sprays can help to loosen things up, their lubricating properties aren't great, so it pays to use decent oils or greases. I believe that WD40 / CRC5-56 can actually make things worse on modern cables, which have a nylon liner, rather than the plain wound metal one of the olde days, so it pays to pick your lubricants carefully, and turf cables once they're getting a bit troublesome.

Hmm Suzuki gearboxes, still the best. All my Hondas seemed a bit clunky, and my Yamahas were a bit better, but as you say Suzuki are probably still the smoothest.

Agree with your advice on cables. All my reading, talks to mechanics etc say not to use WD40 on cables. Graphite based lube, or even light engine oil, and spray a LITTLE chain lube where the cable slots into the clucth lever itself.

Blipping the throttle, changing down, and using the front brake is possible for any rider, but it does take practice. Just do everything as smoothly as you can, and don't try it for the first time in the wet.

[Deano]

To help make this whole sequence smooth i've found that having good condition throttle cables that are well lubricated and a nice responsive,smooth throttle is a major player in this process as well as other related parts under the tank to do with this.Iv'e also had problems with Surface Corrosion that builds up on certain parts,causing very little but just an idea specially on jap imports as old as yours.I've had a few 250 imports and found that carburator and associated parts weren't always in the greatest condition and generally replaced the cables soon after getting the bike.I actually had a throttle cable brake on me at a track day 1 lap into it!.Bike shops get them looking and feeling good enough to sell,they dont like spending to much time and $$ on them as you may know.Pays to take a look if you haven't,you can do all of it yaself with the assistance of silicon spray and every bodys mate Mr 5.56.

What am I hearing ? Maintenance advice from the man who doesn't check his oil level regularly and wears rear tyres down to the steel ? :killingme

My advice - practice practice practice (someone also mentioned braking and blipping before the corner which is a good technique)

[badlieutenant]

Yeah, they're not as smooth as say, a Suzuki gearbox. However, having said that, there shouldn't be too many false neutrals or jumping out of gear; this can indicate worn gear forks are damaged dogs. I've had 6 Hondas, and they all had various degrees of dogginess to the gear change, which I enhanced by being a gearbox/clutch wrecker.:wacko:

This has a stronger detent spring, and uses ball bearings to make sure each change is positive. They are available for the VFR (despite what it says on their website), and relatively easy to fit. http://www.factorypro.com/products/shift.html
Wish I'd had one on my VFR...

so far Ive only had false neutral when ive been a little bit less positive when shifting. Laziness is not rewarded, but once your aware of it you find yourself redlining the bike less (when false neutrals found) and I can shift it back in no probs.

Cheers for the link. That looks the shizzle. Do I just get a 98 model shifter ? are they the same or do I just request a 86 version ?

[Bonez]

Agree with your advice on cables. All my reading, talks to mechanics etc say not to use WD40 on cables. Graphite based lube, or even light engine oil, and spray a LITTLE chain lube where the cable slots into the clucth lever itself.
Having used it for 20 somthing years( and owning the same 2 bikes without replacing trottle cables for 18 years) I think I can speak from personnal experiance, don't ya think?
:msn-wink:

[Pwalo]

Having used it for 20 somthing years( and owning the same 2 bikes without replacing trottle cables for 18 years) I think I can speak from personnal experiance, don't ya think?
:msn-wink:

You are indeed, 'The Man'.

Ciao.

[Hoon]

I wouldn't use CRC or WD40 to lube my cables - they are more "All Purpose - mechanic in a can" type products. Good for cleaning out the crap and freeing them up but I'd still use a dedicated lubricant afterwards to keep them moving freely.