Police shoot and kill another person

[Bren]

Police shoot man dead in street
5:00AM Thursday September 27, 2007
Police cordon off part of Stanmore Rd in Christchurch where a body lies under a sheet near a police car. Photo / Simon Baker

Police cordon off part of Stanmore Rd in Christchurch where a body lies under a sheet near a police car. Photo / Simon Baker

Police shot and killed a man last night after being called to a domestic incident.

The drama began after officers received reports a man was smashing a flat with a hammer.

Armed police went to the address in inner-city Christchurch and found the 37-year-old man in nearby Stanmore Rd attacking a vehicle with the hammer.

Police said he was shot at 8.36pm, and died at the scene at about 9pm.

A resident told One News he heard what sounded like someone kicking and banging a car, then what he described as four gun shots.

Late last night, the man's body was still at the scene of the shooting. He had not been indentified last night.

Police District Commander Sandra Manderson said a homicide investigation and a separate Police Complaints Authority inquiry had started.

"The homicide inquiry will be run parallel to the PCA inquiry using separate teams of staff," she said.

Police Kaumatua Reverend Maurice Gray had been called in to ensure that the cultural process of tapu lifting was done correctly and that the scene was rendered neutral when police work was completed.



The last man to be killed by police was Haidar Ebbadi Mahdi, 37, shot by a police officer at his home in Auckland in August 2004.




Taser woulda worked better!

[sAsLEX]

Let the information come out before we jump to conclusions aye.

Have you had weapons training? Do you know the SOPs that they follow? huh?



It was CHCH though wasn't it? http://stuff.co.nz/4213339a6530.html

pt

[LilSel]

Oh dear... not another one of 'those' ones

[Bren]

mate, i think it was overkill...excuse the pun

[Grahameeboy]

Even without knowing full story yet, 4 shots seems excessive if the guy had a hammer..........4 shots surely is 'kill' rather than 'incapacitate'.

The full story will no doubt reveal itself.

[deanohit]

I'm gonna reserve judgement till theres more info, no point in flamin anyone yet.

[Timber020]

They just saved us taxpayers having to support a guy who doesnt think it nessesary to stop using a weopon when threatened by cops, and the got it done before bedtime. Next time you have your car, bike or loved one smashed up, let me know how much restraint you would like applied in stopping the offender.

I will wait until we have the full story.

[LilSel]

Let the information come out before we jump to conclusions aye.




The full story will no doubt reveal itself.

I'm gonna reserve judgement till theres more info, no point in flamin anyone yet.

:yes: Wise decisions... It reads like its gonna be another of 'those' ones tho doesnt it... Mr Clarke will comment... someone will get upset... then someone else will resign... and the media will go into a frenzy :shutup: and and....

[caesius]

Even without knowing full story yet, 4 shots seems excessive if the guy had a hammer..........4 shots surely is 'kill' rather than 'incapacitate'.

The full story will no doubt reveal itself.

Don't cops in NZ shoot to kill rather than to incapacitate? Something to do with reinforcing the gun as a last resort.

[Usarka]

Ta guy who doesnt think it nessesary to stop using a weopon when threatened by cops

yeah what a dumbarse. i liked that email from the cops saying if you have a knife we will shoot you. Seems this coppa cant tell a knife from a hammer, but the end result is all good - peopl might start realising there is a limit :Police:

i wonder if they left the body under a car for the night wondering where it might be though :rofl:

[Grahameeboy]

Don't cops in NZ shoot to kill rather than to incapacitate? Something to do with reinforcing the gun as a last resort.

I hope not............I mean if the guy had a hammer, surely the Police don't have to resort to guns to stop guys like this.

What about the riot gear with shields?

[Finn]

Don't be a bunch of pussies. Good job. I wish this happened more often.

What makes me really laugh is the following...

"Police District Commander Sandra Manderson said a homicide investigation and a separate Police Complaints Authority inquiry had started."

What? Who complained? Bloody joke. Okay, perhaps a little investigation may be in order but instead we now get a cop(s) who should get a medal has to spend the next 4 years in court.

And this little bute...

"Police Kaumatua Reverend Maurice Gray had been called in to ensure that the cultural process of tapu lifting was done correctly and that the scene was rendered neutral when police work was completed."

More special treatment. The local witch doctor does a song and dance. If they have magic powers, why didn't his farnow lift the "evil spirit" from the prick while he was still alive?

[sAsLEX]

Don't cops in NZ shoot to kill rather than to incapacitate? Something to do with reinforcing the gun as a last resort.

Very few forces, police or otherwise shoot to maim etc, and rounds are directed at the centre of mass for maximum effect.



Even without knowing full story yet, 4 shots seems excessive if the guy had a hammer..........4 shots surely is 'kill' rather than 'incapacitate'.

The full story will no doubt reveal itself.

Well that's less than a magazine so that's fair. You fire until the threat is no longer there, if that is 4 or 10 rounds ......

What do you work as Grahame? Do you undertake firearms training? Do you put yourself on the front line? Do you serve your community?

Once you do some of those maybe then you can pass judegement.

[caesius]

Very few forces, police or otherwise shoot to maim etc, and rounds are directed at the centre of mass for maximum effect.

Thought so, I remember my 5th form Science teacher was an ex-cop, told us some mean stories. Also told us cops don't shoot to wound - he'd been in a few gun situations before, never fired himself - or so he told us...

But the pussy's don't even shoot for the head! Any fool can shoot randomly at the heart, cops should get presents if they manage to get a clear head shot.

In fact, maybe they could have a quota for them.

[sAsLEX]

"Police District Commander Sandra Manderson said a homicide investigation and a separate Police Complaints Authority inquiry had started."

What? Who complained? Bloody joke. Okay, perhaps a little investigation may be in order but instead we now get a cop(s) who should get a medal has to spend the next 4 years in court.



You speak of medals a funny anecdote about medals.

A Marine was hit in Afghanistan, in the ensuing firefight the Marines had to evac leaving the guy behind. They didn't really like that idea so they wrangled up an Apache or two, jumped on the wings and went and retrieved him sitting outside the helo on the wings, they retrieved the guy but was dead on arrival back at base. They risked going into a live combat zone on the outside of a helo and you think they got medals? Nope but the pilots have.....

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/x6qHcd4imKk"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/x6qHcd4imKk" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

[sAsLEX]

But the pussy's don't even shoot for the head! Any fool can shoot randomly at the heart, cops should get presents if they manage to get a clear head shot.

In fact, maybe they could have a quota for them.

You have shot a pistol in real life I guess then? At a dynamic target a few inches across?

Well done........... go back to your playstation

[Devil]

Even without knowing full story yet, 4 shots seems excessive if the guy had a hammer..........4 shots surely is 'kill' rather than 'incapacitate'.

The full story will no doubt reveal itself.

Hrm, just trying to think of the quote I heard after the Stephen Wallace incident. From a cop I believe : "If they're worth shooting, they're worth shooting twice". :yes:

Finn: No one has to complain. It's standard procedure to refer to the PCA when the cops are involved with a shooting.

[Grahameeboy]

Very few forces, police or otherwise shoot to maim etc, and rounds are directed at the centre of mass for maximum effect.




Well that's less than a magazine so that's fair. You fire until the threat is no longer there, if that is 4 or 10 rounds ......

What do you work as Grahame? Do you undertake firearms training? Do you put yourself on the front line? Do you serve your community?

Once you do some of those maybe then you can pass judegement.

I was just making an observation rather than a judgement and did say the full story will reveal.

I have done weapons training (not guns) and serve my community but not in the Police..............just think that a man with a hammer v guns is a bit much................

Years ago I was playing pool in a pub with some friends. It was not our local so a local didn't like us playing so decided to attack me without any prior contact......he ended up in hospital...I did Aikido and was cornered and gave up after I realised what I could do.......but what if I had got a gun and shot him..............I would get prosecuted..............not much difference surely.

[caesius]

But the pussy's don't even shoot for the head! Any fool can shoot randomly at the heart, cops should get presents if they manage to get a clear head shot.

In fact, maybe they could have a quota for them.

A wee bit of sarcasm in there.


You have shot a pistol in real life I guess then? At a dynamic target a few inches across?

Well done........... go back to your playstation

I don't have one. God, thanks for pointing out my misfortunes. Now I'll be grumpy all Physics lab.

[sAsLEX]

I would get prosecuted..............not much difference surely.

You are allowed to use any force you deem necessary to defend yourself, though there is seldom a case where this will happen whilst you are holding a loaded weapon. Police can carry loaded weapons legally in more situations than you that is one difference. I think i you are attacked unprovoked with many witnesses and you drop the guy permanently you would not get convicted by your peers.

[Coldrider]

The car was worth more than his life, there is only one side to the story now.
They were saying the guy may have had more weapons now, sprinkling crap to feed the public till the 'facts' are released.

[Grahameeboy]

You are allowed to use any force you deem necessary to defend yourself, though there is seldom a case where this will happen whilst you are holding a loaded weapon. Police can carry loaded weapons legally in more situations than you that is one difference. I think i you are attacked unprovoked with many witnesses and you drop the guy permanently you would not get convicted by your peers.

So a gun v a hammer wealding guy (subject to confirmation) is deemed necessary.

In the UK the Police are taught Aikido moves which do not involve use of force even against a guy with a hammer or a knife.............there are other ways to deal with situations......and what happened to the tazer??

[davereid]

hehe, maybe it will turn out to have been his own car.. that would be rich.. shot for smashing up your own car

[sAsLEX]

I don't have one. God, thanks for pointing out my misfortunes. Now I'll be grumpy all Physics lab.

You should really go to a club and give one a try. Will highlight how bullshit most movies/ games / pop culture is.

Here is mine..... .well kinda

<img src=http://www.remtek.com/arms/sig/model/226/226.gif>

[sAsLEX]

So a gun v a hammer wealding guy (subject to confirmation) is deemed necessary.

In the UK the Police are taught Aikido moves which do not involve use of force even against a guy with a hammer or a knife.............there are other ways to deal with situations......and what happened to the tazer??

Maybe they weren't carrying the tazer after all the public outcry over there use!

Can they win at all?

Keeping justice with flowers and hugs is not going to work. HTFU. If you decide to be a prat and go threatening cops pause a little and think of the consequences.

[u4ea]

So a gun v a hammer wealding guy (subject to confirmation) is deemed necessary.

and what happened to the tazer??

I wondered that too(what if the guy wasnt a pee head but a schitzophrenic or something??)will wait for the FACTS to emerge..

[Goblin]

You are allowed to use any force you deem necessary to defend yourself, though there is seldom a case where this will happen whilst you are holding a loaded weapon. Police can carry loaded weapons legally in more situations than you that is one difference. I think i you are attacked unprovoked with many witnesses and you drop the guy permanently you would not get convicted by your peers.Tell that to Mr Chef.

[Grahameeboy]

Maybe they weren't carrying the tazer after all the public outcry over there use!

Can they win at all?

Keeping justice with flowers and hugs is not going to work. HTFU. If you decide to be a prat and go threatening cops pause a little and think of the consequences.

I agree the Police get a hard public opinion ride.

But when did being a pratt mean you deserved to get shot. I just don't think being shot is a reasonable consequence if the story so far is true.

I mean when they catch a serial killer, do they shoot them there and then because they may be in danger? But a pratt gets shot...who was the more dangerous............

[Grahameeboy]

I wondered that too(what if the guy wasnt a pee head but a schitzophrenic or something??)will wait for the FACTS to emerge..

Exactly right.........................

[Indoo]

So a gun v a hammer wealding guy (subject to confirmation) is deemed necessary.

What would you rather they do? Get to the scene, see the guy has a hammer so all run off to get hammers themselves so they can have a 'fair' fight in which the offender has just as much chance of 'winning' and killing them?


In the UK the Police are taught Aikido moves which do not involve use of force even against a guy with a hammer or a knife.............there are other ways to deal with situations......and what happened to the tazer??

What aload of absolute crap, Police in the U.K don't respond to offenders with bats and knives unarmed, they go in armed exactly the same way we do. Many forces have armed response vehicles which are designated for just such a role so I have no idea where you get your information from.

[u4ea]

Maybe they weren't carrying the tazer after all the public outcry over there use!

Can they win at all?

Keeping justice with flowers and hugs is not going to work. HTFU. If you decide to be a prat and go threatening cops pause a little and think of the consequences.

...nope ..no ones a winner I guess....

[The Stranger]

"Police Kaumatua Reverend Maurice Gray had been called in to ensure that the cultural process of tapu lifting was done correctly and that the scene was rendered neutral when police work was completed."

Thank christ for that, hate to think they were culturally unsafe and someone died as a result.

[Usarka]

But when did being a pratt mean you deserved to get shot. I just don't think being shot is a reasonable consequence if the story so far is true.
You ever been attacked with a hammer?

Perfect reason for shooting someone imho. too many stories of people with hammers in 'road rage' incidents, teach the morans that hammer = shoot.

break it down.

http://www.fresnobeehive.com/archives/upload/2007/06/mc-hammer.jpg

[Grahameeboy]

What would you rather they do? Get to the scene, see the guy has a hammer so all run off to get hammers themselves so they can have a 'fair' fight in which the offender has just as much chance of 'winning' and killing them?

Not shoot. Surely 1 man with a hammer against a few cops should enough?


What aload of absolute crap, Police in the U.K don't respond to offenders with bats and knives unarmed, they go in armed exactly the same way we do. Many forces have armed response vehicles which are designated for just such a role so I have no idea where you get your information from.

I am not saying they do, just saying they learn Aikido moves as part of their training so they have the skills to deal with a hammer head. They have truncheons anyway so a few Brit cops v a hammer head should be enough.

Like you say 'Armed Response' which means response to an armed situation?

..............................

[sAsLEX]

I agree the Police get a hard public opinion ride.

But when did being a pratt mean you deserved to get shot. I just don't think being shot is a reasonable consequence if the story so far is true.

I mean when they catch a serial killer, do they shoot them there and then because they may be in danger? But a pratt gets shot...who was the more dangerous............

If someone runs at you with a weapon, can you ascertain in that split second you have to draw and fire your weapon, that you will be able to disarm them before they can take you out?

You say its only a hammer? I have heard of a diminutive chick taking out the largest guy on ship during an exercise with an asp baton, similar to a hammer in ability, now if she could do that to someone three times her weight and strength how are the cops meant to defend against that? How are they meant to ascertain if the threat knows Akido or other take down moves?

If you approach/threaten a member of the Police with weapon drawn....... its your own fuckin fault. The cop more than likely didn't give you the hammer and say "run towards me so I can shoot you", the person made the wrong decision and now his family and friends have to live with it, and Darwin says he doesn't get to live with his stupid decision.

[Grahameeboy]

You ever been attacked with a hammer?

Perfect reason for shooting someone imho. too many stories of people with hammers in 'road rage' incidents, teach the morans that hammer = shoot.

break it down.

http://www.fresnobeehive.com/archives/upload/2007/06/mc-hammer.jpg

Not a hammer...............will a knife do?

[sAsLEX]

"Police Kaumatua Reverend Maurice Gray had been called in to ensure that the cultural process of tapu lifting was done correctly and that the scene was rendered neutral when police work was completed."

Thank christ for that, hate to think they were culturally unsafe and someone died as a result.

Is that the correct cultural process for all New Zealanders? Or have they just given away the victims culture. As I would be offended to have someone else culture forced onto me after my death.

[Usarka]

Not a hammer...............will a knife do?

Stabbed in the frontal lobe!??? :shit:

[Grub]

Taser woulda worked better!

Dog prolly would have worked better than both of them. Trouble is, it's easy to speculate and even easier to jump to the wrong conclusion

[Grahameeboy]

If someone runs at you with a weapon, can you ascertain in that split second you have to draw and fire your weapon, that you will be able to disarm them before they can take you out?

Yes with training. Easier that you think?

You say its only a hammer? I have heard of a diminutive chick taking out the largest guy on ship during an exercise with an asp baton, similar to a hammer in ability, now if she could do that to someone three times her weight and strength how is the cops meant to defend against that? How are they meant to ascertain if the threat knows Akido or other take down moves?

Aikido is not weight biased.

If you approach/threaten a member of the Police with weapon drawn....... its your own fuckin fault. The cop more than likely didn't give you the hammer and say "run towards me so I can shoot you", the person made the wrong decision and now his family and friends have to live with it, and Darwin says he doesn't get to live with his stupid decision.

I agree but stick to my previous points


........................

[Griff]

You speak of medals a funny anecdote about medals.

A Marine was hit in Afghanistan, ....

Gosport?
There are no "Bootnecks" in Gosport, Poole yes.
So are you a Matlow?

[Griff]

Police shot and killed a man last night after being called to a domestic incident.
The drama began after officers received reports a man was smashing a flat with a hammer.

Here is yet another reason why not to practice DIY in your own home.:2guns:

[sAsLEX]

Gosport?
There are no "Bootnecks" in Gosport, Poole yes.
So are you a Matlow?

Not quite a Matlow but you are close........

No Pongos either

Your not another Ex-pat are you? They seem to be leaving this island as quick as they can for my fair old Godzone

[Griff]

Not quite a Matlow but you are close........

No Pongos either

Your not another Ex-pat are you? They seem to be leaving this island as quick as they can for my fair old Godzone

Oooh a Guessing Game:clap::clap:

Well you a'int 40 (Taunton), or 45 /Commachio (Arbroath).
42 are not in Gosport and CTC is in Lympstone

[The Stranger]

Is that the correct cultural process for all New Zealanders? Or have they just given away the victims culture. As I would be offended to have someone else culture forced onto me after my death.

Come on dude, they don't make mistakes like that.
Little things like life and death, yes, but the big issues like culture, never!

[Roadrash]

The Taser's trial period is over, Police will only get it back if it's approved, Kinda ironic that when the Police had it, people said Police didn't need it, now it's gone,
people are asking, why didn't they use it ??

[Hoon]

Yep another argument for Tazers. Could've saved the life of a crazy here. But I don't think they're around anymore. Weren't the Tazers just a trial and have all been handed back now?? (edit...duhh too slow)

I have no problem with the cops decision as long as he followed procedure. correct ROE's and escalation of force.

In real life you don't shoot to wound. If you decide that a situation requires the lethal use of force then then you apply lethal use of force. You don't fire one round and hope thats enough - you fire enough to incapacitate the target. If he lives, lucky him. If he doesn't, tough. There is no "shoot to wound" policy, it might work and save a loonies life sometimes but other times it won't and you'll end up with a dead cop instead.

The question is when do you decide that the use of lethal force is necessary? This is where the training comes in. Every precaution is taken to give the offender every opportunity to back down. Lethal force is the last resort and if it gets that far then you can be pretty sure that all the challenges, warnings and graduated responses were given prior to this (assuming procedures were followed).

[tri boy]

Hope the coppa's involved get as much support for their actions, as the recently deceased and his family get.
I'm pretty sure NO coppa in NZ takes these kind of actions lightly.
Protecting and Serving the community has to be one of the most thankless careers there is.

[Finn]

Fuck, just in from our leftist press...

The 37-year-old victim, resident in Christchurch but from the North Island, died despite efforts to resuscitate him after the shooting in the suburb of Avonside.

Victim? Okay, now I'm getting angry. I've just emailed the Hurald and asked them to remove that word. If you feel the same, do so yourself.

[Paul in NZ]

Anyone crazy enough NOT to drop his hammer when faced with armed Police is too dumb or far gone to be overly worried about. Sure - lets have an investigation - it's the right thing to do as there should always be an investigation over a death or even discharge of a firearm but I have NO issues with the outcome at this stage...

Fuck me - a gang can randomly shoot a toddler and its more acceptable than the Police taking out a bit of dog tucker like this clown...

[Clockwork]

Bollox !!

It appears I'm not allowed to express an opinion in regard to this matter because I haven't been trained in the use of firearms and my only source for information is our lying, irresponsible, sensationalist media.

Bloody convenient for the Authorities that, isn't it?

[arsnik]

If a cop has his/her gun out, its time to back up, quickly. They aren\'t marksmen, there trained to shoot at the mass to kill.

+ 1 TO THE COPS

If only tariana turia would walk around with a hammer.

[Finn]

If only tariana turia would walk around with a hammer.

Her pen is more dangerous.

[Usarka]

Fuck, just in from our leftist press...

The 37-year-old victim, resident in Christchurch but from the North Island, died despite efforts to resuscitate him after the shooting in the suburb of Avonside.

Victim? Okay, now I'm getting angry. I've just emailed the Hurald and asked them to remove that word. If you feel the same, do so yourself.

Bahaha, done. a pint says they don't change it, it won't suit their agenda.

"Until it's disproven, how about not painting him out to be a victim of anything but his own stupidity."

[tri boy]

Victim? Okay, now I'm getting angry. I've just emailed the Hurald and asked them to remove that word. If you feel the same, do so yourself.

In a way he was a victim......of his own stupidity.(I agree with you though. Looks like the media is winding up for a good cop lynching session).

[Tank]

It all comes down to how threatened the officer was feeling. The latest bits in the Herald say he feared for his safety.

If thats the case you assume that the guy with the hammer was doing something to cause concern for his well being - like approaching in a menacing manner.

Good job I say - Shoot fuckers like this each and every time. Too many coppers get stabbed, hit, bitten all the time and its accepted.

The officer only has so many options available to them, talking obviously wasnt working, and taking if off him by hand was probally a great way to get a hammer in the head - so whats the cop to do - walk away and leave him to kill someone?

People need to learn that they need to obey instructions when given in a situation like that. Any NORMAL person when having a gun pointed at them would do as they are told - this guy obviously wasn't normal and needed stopping. Id rather it was him killed than his wife, kid, or the copper.

[scumdog]

I hope not............I mean if the guy had a hammer, surely the Police don't have to resort to guns to stop guys like this.

What about the riot gear with shields?

Yeah, like we all have THAT in our hip pockets ready for instant deployment!!

And the four shot comment you made earlier? - you are guessing they ALL hit the idiot eh?


Wait and see, wait and see...

[Tank]

- you are guessing they ALL hit the idiot eh?

Here is hoping. If you are going to commit to shooting someone - commit BIG

[scumdog]

I was just making an observation rather than a judgement and did say the full story will reveal.

I have done weapons training (not guns) and serve my community but not in the Police..............just think that a man with a hammer v guns is a bit much................

Years ago I was playing pool in a pub with some friends. It was not our local so a local didn't like us playing so decided to attack me without any prior contact......he ended up in hospital...I did Aikido and was cornered and gave up after I realised what I could do.......but what if I had got a gun and shot him..............I would get prosecuted..............not much difference surely.


Aw c'mon, be thinking - what would have happened if an armed cop got into a grapple with a retard-waste-of-tax-payers-money and lost - and said retard now had a pistol with 17 bullets.


Shoot more of the idiots I say - then the bleeding-heart soft-cock public will be BEGGING for tazers to be introduced all round to front line cops.

[Skyryder]

Well if the investigation is anything like the Rickards one we'll all be dead and gone before any colclusion as to the rights and wrongs of this is made public.

The whole thing sounds a bit gung ho. Four shots and as to date no mention of a life threatening situation, but hey I still got an open mind on this.

Skyryder

[scumdog]

Four shots and as to date no mention of a life threatening situation, but hey I still got an open mind on this.

Skyryder

Well it certainly was life threatening to the dead idiot!!! Mwahahahaha!!:lol:

[Tank]

Well if the investigation is anything like the Rickards one we'll all be dead and gone before any colclusion as to the rights and wrongs of this is made public.

The whole thing sounds a bit gung ho. Four shots and as to date no mention of a life threatening situation, but hey I still got an open mind on this.

Skyryder


The paper currently says:

Manderson said the police officer who shot the man felt his life was "under serious threat". Manderson said the man was threatening serious harm to the police officer.


If a guy is coming at you with a hammer stating that he is going to do you serious harm I would call that life threatening.

[heyjoe]

It is too early in the piece to jump conclusions. The taser trial (and it was just a trial and evaluation) has now ended and use of the taser ceased. It was reported in the news a short while ago. I agree that it would be unwise to make the assumption that all four shots hit the guy. I am sure further details will clarify things later today. Following protocol is important in work where violence is always a potential everyday hazard. I await further news.

[Ewan Oozarmy]

Well, it looks like we'll all get a say in how we'd like the cops to do their jobs:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7015024.stm

[Joni]

My question is not really about this case alone... Im hoping someone can answer it for me...

Fair enough, when a cop feels they are under pressure, shoot! But 4 bullets? Hmmm excessive IMO.

The other night we were watching one of these cop programmes and police were empying their guns on people. I asked my partner why this happens, he says you need to keep shooting until the threat is no longer a threat... surely one or two bullets would do that? Or am I being naive again?

[Finn]

but hey I still got an open mind on this.

So has the moron that got shoot... all over the pavement. He he.

I can't wait to hear from the family. "Oh he was such a lovely boy"

[Colapop]

4 bullets is really just two. I was in the army and we were taught to double tap (two shots for the price of one) Handguns are a lot more twitchy than rifles and it's very easy when under pressure to fire more than a single shot. I think 'under pressure' is the appropriate term here. Being in that situation, I'd fire more than one shot. The officer did not "empty the mag into the motherfucker" as some people (the media) would suggest is the intent in every armed conflict the NZ police have been in.

[Finn]

Fair enough, when a cop feels they are under pressure, shoot! But 4 bullets? Hmmm excessive IMO.

It's not like a video game Joni. Even at close range, a pistol is inaccurate especially when in a life threatening situation so it is normal practice to empty the bloody thing until the scumsucker hits the deck. One calculated shot works for a sniper, not for a cop with a pistolla.

[ghost]

My question is not really about this case alone... Im hoping someone can answer it for me...

Fair enough, when a cop feels they are under pressure, shoot! But 4 bullets? Hmmm excessive IMO.

The other night we were watching one of these cop programmes and police were empying their guns on people. I asked my partner why this happens, he says you need to keep shooting until the threat is no longer a threat... surely one or two bullets would do that? Or am I being naive again?


No, not naive, there has been a lot of debate at to the stopping power of the current service round, aside from this and no disrespect, most police officers are not marksmen in the situation they shoot in so they may not place rounds on target effectivly. Given the situation of not having the time or space to establish if the target is hit effectivly enough to stop them the safest option for the police is to shoot unit the target either stops or goes down. There is no exact science on the number of shots this will take.

Aside to all the naysayers out there the police do not go around filling people with lead ( unless you count the ozzie federal police ) needlessly so dont beleive all that appears in the media and wait for a bit more factual information to come out, if it ever does ( thanks media )

[RC1]

"Oh he was such a lovely boy"

of cause he was a good man arent they always after they are taken down :(

[Hoon]

surely one or two bullets would do that? Or am I being naive again?

Putting it nicely....Yes.

Bullet wounds aren't consistent. You can fire one bullet and kill someone by hitting a vital organ, other times you can fire 12 and they'll still keep coming at you. You can't shoot to wound with any guarantee that you will only wound and not kill.

Hence the decision to shoot is really the decision to kill. If you decide to kill then thats what you aim to do. Since one shot may not kill you need to fire more to accomplish the task.

Say you lined up 100 individual cops each facing 100 individual hammer weilding maniacs intent on killing them. You tell each of those cops that they can only fire one bullet at their offender. How many crazies do you think will get through and kill their cop?? Do the same experiment again but this time the cops can fire as many rounds as needed.

Yes we must consider the offenders well being but we still need to provide enough of a safe environment for our Police on the front line.

[k14]

If only tariana turia would walk around with a hammer.
Nah i'd rather it be bradford, sue that is.

As for the "victim", good riddance. The world is devoid of one more meathead. If you are too thick to stop what you are doing when a cop draws his gun then you've got no sympathy from me. Good stuff to the copper for making a good job of it, unlike the case with the gunman loose in upper hutt, he killed him and which means no taxpayer money wasted on hospital treatment.

[HenryDorsetCase]

If you approach/threaten a member of the Police with weapon drawn....... its your own fuckin fault. The cop more than likely didn't give you the hammer and say "run towards me so I can shoot you", the person made the wrong decision and now his family and friends have to live with it, and Darwin says he doesn't get to live with his stupid decision.

I agree with this absolutely. I have no sympathy for this fuckwit, Stephen Wallace or his ilk either.
I was talking to someone about this this morning and they couldnt remember the name for the kaumatuas this morning and came up with "yoda's".. which I thought was pretty funny.

[HenryDorsetCase]

4 bullets is really just two. I was in the army and we were taught to double tap (two shots for the price of one) Handguns are a lot more twitchy than rifles and it's very easy when under pressure to fire more than a single shot. I think 'under pressure' is the appropriate term here. Being in that situation, I'd fire more than one shot. The officer did not "empty the mag into the motherfucker" as some people (the media) would suggest is the intent in every armed conflict the NZ police have been in.

As a taxpayer, Im putting my hand up to say that I wouldnt mind the extra expense of the extra rounds (Glock is what, nine? so he had five spare: he should get an efficiency medal or something.)

[HenryDorsetCase]

Well if the investigation is anything like the Rickards one we'll all be dead and gone before any colclusion as to the rights and wrongs of this is made public.

The whole thing sounds a bit gung ho. Four shots and as to date no mention of a life threatening situation, but hey I still got an open mind on this.

Skyryder

its worth repeating that if someone is threatening you with a hammer then that kind of meets any reasonable definition of "life threatening"

[Krusti]

My question is not really about this case alone... Im hoping someone can answer it for me...

Fair enough, when a cop feels they are under pressure, shoot! But 4 bullets? Hmmm excessive IMO.

The other night we were watching one of these cop programmes and police were empying their guns on people. I asked my partner why this happens, he says you need to keep shooting until the threat is no longer a threat... surely one or two bullets would do that? Or am I being naive again?


A couple of points..... you will find that almost all people faced with a thread and decide to fire will automaticly keep pulling the trigger more than once. It is a strange feeling looking down the barrel of a gun deciding if you should shoot or not.

I was taught that if an offender was running at you from 12m away and a shot was fired at centre mass then there was only about a 50% or so chance that a 38 revolver shot would drop him prior to reaching you but a rifle had about a 90% plus chance.

All I will say is that I am glad I was not the officer having to make the decision. Imagine, you have pulled a gun, he is running at you, you have a split second to decide......tough call.

[Edbear]

Don't be a bunch of pussies. Good job. I wish this happened more often.

What makes me really laugh is the following...

"Police District Commander Sandra Manderson said a homicide investigation and a separate Police Complaints Authority inquiry had started."

What? Who complained? Bloody joke. Okay, perhaps a little investigation may be in order but instead we now get a cop(s) who should get a medal has to spend the next 4 years in court.

And this little bute...

"Police Kaumatua Reverend Maurice Gray had been called in to ensure that the cultural process of tapu lifting was done correctly and that the scene was rendered neutral when police work was completed."

More special treatment. The local witch doctor does a song and dance. If they have magic powers, why didn't his farnow lift the "evil spirit" from the prick while he was still alive?




"You must spread..."

[Macktheknife]

I was taught that if an offender was running at you from 12m away and a shot was fired at centre mass then there was only about a 50% or so chance that a 38 revolver shot would drop him prior to reaching you but a rifle had about a 90% plus chance.

All I will say is that I am glad I was not the officer having to make the decision. Imagine, you have pulled a gun, he is running at you, you have a split second to decide......tough call.

Sorry Krusti, not a tough call for me at all. Have been in these situations and found extraordinary clarity comes fast, you do what you need to do and leave all recriminations behind at that point.
I am sick of all the bullshit that comes out when these idiots commit suicide by police. People who hardly know one end of a gun from the other suddenly think it is reasonable to expect a cop who has 1-2 qualifying shoots per year at targets, to be able to 'shoot to wound/incapacitate' under extreme pressure and life threatening circumstances, and do it with just one shot.
Oh and by the way officer, if you screw it up and somehow manage to live through the experience, you will still be told you were wrong and get crucified in the media.

I have personally seen an offender, after taking 3 rounds to various parts of his body still running towards an officer, screaming "I'm gonna kill you" with a weapon in his hand.
It took another 3 rounds to put the guy down and he still didn't die.

All I am saying is, most people have no idea how difficult it is to shoot someone, never mind someone who is intent on killing you in the very near future. To do this and still have some sense of control and awareness is unusual, to do this and be a perfect shot, is bloody near impossible.

As far as I am concerned, the cop did the right thing, and deserves all the help and support I know he probably won't get.

[scumdog]

As a taxpayer, Im putting my hand up to say that I wouldnt mind the extra expense of the extra rounds (Glock is what, nine? so he had five spare: he should get an efficiency medal or something.)

Sorry dude, - wrong!

SEVENTEEN bullets in a Glock 17 mag.

But hey, the idea is once you start cranking on the trigger you keep doing so until the oxygen thief 'complies' and ceases to be a threat.

We have no limit on how many shots we can sail into threat.:msn-wink:

[Delerium]

I think that part of the argument here is to do with the public ignrance of firearms. I dont mean any disrepect to anybody, a firearms user or not but some things need to be made clear. As a user of firearms since I was 10 or 11 and now part a of a govt department that uses them here is a few points to ponder.

With handguns the barrel is extermely short... like inches. this means that a slight hand movement results in a large sight picture change. the result of this is bullets scattered over a wide area. Or a large group as we like to say. The short barrel also results in less time to effectively stabilise a bullet, again negatively affecting accuracy.

The result is that if your shooting much more than 30 or so meters with a handgun, you may as well throw it at them (personal opionion).

When pumped full of adrenalin your under stress and your hands will be shaking. The double tap method is standard. it is used in order to help ensure that your target goes down and is no longer a threat.

To those that say shoot him in the head or the leg, have you ever fired a weapon or pistol before? your dreaming. In order to simulate the stress of these situations, certain organisations make the troops sprint 200 meters before doing a 'snap' (releasing x amount of rounds within a set time period) shoot. Doing this with a rifle is hard enough, try doing it with a pistol and you will start to appreciate how difficult it gets.

This is part of the reason you go for centre of mass. It is the largest target that will stop the threat. Remember your target wont just stand there while you get your sight picutre sorted out. combine all these factors and it actually isnt that easy.

Back to the doubble tap, as well as helping ensure that your target goes down, by increasing the amount of rounds in the air that are AIMED, it helps to have your rounds connect. (studies have shown that more than 2-3 round bursts and the accuracy goes out the window, hence 3 round burst features on weapons rather than fully automatic)

Give it a try if you know somebody with a firearms license. Sprint 200 meters, then try and put 4 or 5 rounds on target within say 10 seconds and have a look at the result.

and why the outcry about the guy ONLY having a hammer. Would you let me belt you around the head with one as hard as I could? didnt think so, you would likely end up dead.

[SPman]

An out of control person with a hammer can kill or maim a person just as easily as someone with a pistol. If I had a pistol and some maniac was coming at me swinging an Estwing (we're talking HAMMERS, here), I'd use it, no question! At least 4 rounds! (at the Whangaparoa 40m range, most people could barely effectively hit the target under quiet, controlled conditions, let alone in an adrenaline charged fracas)

Sad fact of the matter is, outside of a text book or discussion group, there is no regular soft option, available 100% of the time to people involved in incidents like this.
How many events of a similar nature are dealt with every week, without a serious or fatal outcome? - probably more than you'd like to admit - just another day to day problem for your real copper to handle. It's just when it goes horribly wrong that the media screams it from the rooftops and people try to make political capital out of it.

Police shootings happen so rarely here, that it's headline news, but, at least it's not an every day event, like so many other countries around the world!
Whatever the rights and wrongs about this particular case, at least you can be thankful for that.

[Goblin]

As far as I am concerned, the cop did the right thing, and deserves all the help and support I know he probably won't get.Too bloody right! One less oxygen thief! :niceone:

[Littleman]

Soo... ummm... how 'bout those Warriors?

[Tank]

Soo... ummm... how 'bout those Warriors?

They were not shot - they choked.

[Reckless]

The Taser's trial period is over, Police will only get it back if it's approved, Kinda ironic that when the Police had it, people said Police didn't need it, now it's gone,
people are asking, why didn't they use it ??

Yep the same bleeding hearts that'll try and crusify this guy! The Tails wagging the dog I think!


Well, it looks like we'll all get a say in how we'd like the cops to do their jobs:
And I hope we''ll all turn up to make it for him in the split second he has to make that decision. We can't do this of coarse, so we should all shut up and keep well out of it as we weren't there!!!

Frankly I don't give a fuck about facts that come out. NZ police don't bloody shoot people for the sake of it. END OF STORY!!

And there has been no mention throughout this thread of the fact that this guy is human to. Hows he sleeping at night after the shooting, hows he coping with all the shit being/about to be thrown about, how his family reacting to all this public discussion. The mans a fucking hero just for turning up to the job every day!!

My opinion and I'm sticking to it!!

[Usarka]

Well bugger me if the herald hasn't changed the article and now say

"The 37-year-old shot by police had threatened officers and was carrying a hammer which he had used to smash up a flat and a car in Stanmore Rd, Christchurch, police said today"

and all you negative buggers say you cant change things! (no one in particular)

[peasea]

Too early to pass comment, although I could say something cynical like "there'll be an inquiry, the cops will be cleared of any wrongdoing etc etc" but I won't.

The police are our friends and only act to serve and protect us, often protecting us from ourselves and if I were lost I'd still ask a policeman for directions.

(I'm sure there are plenty on kb who would love to tell me where to go, especially if I made cynical remarks.)

There'll be no sarcasm from this quarter either.

[Skyryder]

The paper currently says:

Manderson said the police officer who shot the man felt his life was "under serious threat". Manderson said the man was threatening serious harm to the police officer.


If a guy is coming at you with a hammer stating that he is going to do you serious harm I would call that life threatening.

Yes fair call, but Manderson has also said that other weapons may have been involved. Now he may have had an arsanal in his garage but unless he was armed with additional weapons Manderson's comment about 'other weapons' is irrellevent. It was her comment on this that caught my attention that not all is kosher here.

There has been no information that the offender was rushing or about to rush the officer. In fact a witness has come forward and stated the offender had his arms at his side at the time of the shooting.

Skyryder

[Dilligaf]

To those that say shoot him in the head or the leg, have you ever fired a weapon or pistol before? your dreaming. In order to simulate the stress of these situations, certain organisations make the troops sprint 200 meters before doing a 'snap' (releasing x amount of rounds within a set time period) shoot. Doing this with a rifle is hard enough, try doing it with a pistol and you will start to appreciate how difficult it gets.

.

Bugger that! Why shoot him in the leg - then we'd have to pay for invalid's benefit for the rest of his life.

[Finn]

In fact a witness has come forward and stated the offender had his arms at his side at the time of the shooting.

Another witness has come forward and said that he saw the officer blow on the end of the barrel after the shooting.

Another said that after checking for a pulse, they found one so proceeded to hold their hand over his mouth.

One even saw an officer urinating on the deceased.

The body is still there today and it is said that after fornesics have finished playing poker in the tent, they'll let the local dogs have a feed.

This is all true. The public and media never fabricate stuff.

[peasea]

Another witness has come forward and said that he saw the officer blow on the end of the barrel after the shooting.

Another said that after checking for a pulse, they found one so proceeded to hold their hand over his mouth.

One even saw an officer urinating on the deceased.

The body is still there today and it is said that after fornesics have finished playing poker in the tent, they'll let the local dogs have a feed.

This is all true. The public and media never fabricate stuff.

And neither (thank the Good Lord) do the police. Whew!

[Skyryder]

Another witness has come forward and said that he saw the officer blow on the end of the barrel after the shooting.

Another said that after checking for a pulse, they found one so proceeded to hold their hand over his mouth.

One even saw an officer urinating on the deceased.

The body is still there today and it is said that after fornesics have finished playing poker in the tent, they'll let the local dogs have a feed.

This is all true. The public and media never fabricate stuff.

I threw away the hatchet way back. Can't be bothered looking for it.


Skyryder

[Finn]

I threw away the hatchet way back. Can't be bothered looking for it.

Its under your wifes side of the bed. I put it there just in case you came home early.

[Clockwork]

Another witness has come forward and said that he saw the officer blow on the end of the barrel after the shooting.

Another said that after checking for a pulse, they found one so proceeded to hold their hand over his mouth.

One even saw an officer urinating on the deceased.

The body is still there today and it is said that after fornesics have finished playing poker in the tent, they'll let the local dogs have a feed.

This is all true. The public and media never fabricate stuff.

Is this an attempt to suggest the witness is lying or that the media have made the story up.. ? Let's just hope for you're sake they never decide to arm Dog Rangers!

[Reckless]

Yes fair call, but Manderson has also said that other weapons may have been involved. Now he may have had an arsanal in his garage but unless he was armed with additional weapons Manderson's comment about 'other weapons' is irrellevent. It was her comment on this that caught my attention that not all is kosher here.

There has been no information that the offender was rushing or about to rush the officer. In fact a witness has come forward and stated the offender had his arms at his side at the time of the shooting.

Skyryder

Jeepers its easy for people to evaluate the situation second by second after the fact (or lack of them at this stage). But we aren't there, Shitting our pants, with some guy coming at us with weapons! Are we!

[Grahameeboy]

Aw c'mon, be thinking - what would have happened if an armed cop got into a grapple with a retard-waste-of-tax-payers-money and lost - and said retard now had a pistol with 17 bullets.


Shoot more of the idiots I say - then the bleeding-heart soft-cock public will be BEGGING for tazers to be introduced all round to front line cops.

I kinda get your point re tazers but....okay I know it is me........

[HenryDorsetCase]

years ago a cop was killed by a fuckwit with a screwdriver ... got him in the carotid artery (IIRC) so "found objects" can be very effective. Murray Stretch I think was the cops name... poor bastard.

and any Joe Public that lives in that area of town has an axe to grind with the Pleece, no question.

[Grahameeboy]

Yeah, like we all have THAT in our hip pockets ready for instant deployment!!

Well you carry guns ready for instant deployment.........what about the boot......??

And the four shot comment you made earlier? - you are guessing they ALL hit the idiot eh?

True..................


Wait and see, wait and see...

I agree

......................

[Skyryder]

Jeepers its easy for people to evaluate the situation second by second after the fact (or lack of them at this stage). But we aren't there, Shitting our pants, with some guy coming at us with weapons! Are we!

So let's all agree with each other and make KB realy boring.

Skyryder

[Swoop]

Glad that there is another fine example of Darwin at work.
A golf club might be an example of a more "serious" weapon. A hammer though?
What will be next? "He came at me with a pen, so I shot him"?

You are allowed to use any force you deem necessary to defend yourself,... I think i you are attacked unprovoked with many witnesses and you drop the guy permanently you would not get convicted by your peers.
Just screwed for thousands of dollars to defend yourself, while the prosecution use your tax dollars to screw you over.

The 37-year-old victim, resident in Christchurch but from the North Island,
So the family will want his body buried in the North Island?

...the police do not go around filling people with lead ( unless you count the ozzie federal police ) needlessly...
Correct. That is the job of cheap, shit quality, chinese imported toys.

Too early to pass comment, although I could say something cynical like "there'll be an inquiry, the cops will be cleared of any wrongdoing etc etc" but I won't.
This is the purpose of the police complaints authority, to "have an investigation" and clear the police of any blame.

[Bren]

Things are definitely getting worse in this great country of ours...I am saddened by what society is becoming!
A Mans life now has stuff all value. I dont care if he was an arse or not, maybe he just flipped his lid a bit...dont we all have bad days??? A Taser would have solved the issue without taking a life, but cos of all the bullshit and outcry about them we now have a dead man...Life is a thing to value, not throw away!

[peasea]

So let's all agree with each other and make KB realy boring.

Skyryder


It'd be in keeping with current tradition.

[peasea]

Glad that there is another fine example of Darwin at work.
A golf club might be an example of a more "serious" weapon. A hammer though?
What will be next? "He came at me with a pen, so I shot him"?

Just screwed for thousands of dollars to defend yourself, while the prosecution use your tax dollars to screw you over.

So the family will want his body buried in the North Island?

Correct. That is the job of cheap, shit quality, chinese imported toys.

This is the purpose of the police complaints authority, to "have an investigation" and clear the police of any blame.

He won't gimme my ball back!
(Bang)

[TLMAN]

Originally Posted by scumdog
Yeah, like we all have THAT in our hip pockets ready for instant deployment!!

Well you carry guns ready for instant deployment.........what about the boot......??


......................



No room - thats where ticket books go.

[Romeo]

Just another fuckin' reason why the NZ Police should be given tazers...
Blame the bleedin' heart fuckin' greens, if it weren't for them every officer would have a tazer on his side and a .223 in the boot of his cruiser.

Oh, and what's more dangerous, a golf club or a hammer? I propose the hammer is, because you can easily punch a hole it someones skull with one, wheras the golf club is just going to leave some serious divots upside your head.

[Guitana]

Just another fuckin' reason why the NZ Police should be given tazers...
Blame the bleedin' heart fuckin' greens, if it weren't for them every officer would have a tazer on his side and a .223 in the boot of his cruiser.

Oh, and what's more dangerous, a golf club or a hammer? I propose the hammer is, because you can easily punch a hole it someones skull with one, wheras the golf club is just going to leave some serious divots upside your head.

The Hammer must've been loaded!!!:Police:

[Bullitt]

According to 3news just then only two bullets hit him, one in the chest and one in the leg.

Good riddance.

Much better than paying $1,000,000 for burns to someone in a P-lab.

[doc]

Facts aren't all here yet. But... maybe he was suicidal, just after a domestic. Wild as fu.k no anger management training, and was seeking "Death by Policeman" That will show the Bitch sort of thing. now back to the moon landings

[peasea]

Facts aren't all here yet. [/SIZE]

Doubtful they ever will be.

[ynot slow]

Sad to hear as someones lost a loved one,or maybe wasn't loved at all.
Agree with the folks who think just because films show weapons being fired in a rapid rate and pinpoint accuracy aint like that in life situations,they would be taught to aim for the largest area so that is torso,not head or arm or leg as to reduce the risk of richochet or miss.

As to weapons he had or didn't have,a pair of fists is a weapon if your a boxer i.e Tyson,Ali etc.Also how many guys get into pub fight and seriously injured/killed after getting the crap kicked out of them.Had a similar experiance when in a pub,playing pool with the locals,we didn't have money on just beers,left to go to a party and being pissed as we left a group of guys thought we'd be easy targets,after the first dickhead wouldn't fuck off and being isolated 1-3 isn't fun,smashed the first guys nose in after he glanced me,then the other 2 decided to enter,just as well I was pissed,got the crap kicked out of me,ended up with fat lip,sore ribs,and bruises,lucky would describe that time by me,carried on white water rafting next day.

[Mom]

There has been no information that the offender was rushing or about to rush the officer. In fact a witness has come forward and stated the offender had his arms at his side at the time of the shooting.

Skyryder

I just watched the TV1 news, there was an eye witness interviewed who says this fella was running towards the cop with the hammer above his head!


So let's all agree with each other and make KB realy boring.

Skyryder

Not much chance of that while I am a member......LOL


The Hammer must've been loaded!!!:Police:


Stop being pathetic! All we know is a person has been shot by a cop. Various reports give us conflicting information. Personally I feel for the cop that shot this guy!

[davereid]

Personally I feel for the cop that shot this guy!

Yeah, me too. Once again a good guy uses force to protect himself, and the system plus assorted bleaters comes down on him.

This poor cop and his family won't sleep tonight. Or properly for weeks to come.

You don't need to know why someone is attacking you. You don't need to know if they are sick, mental or just bad.

You just need the absolute right to defend yourself and your family.

I'm sorry too, for the guy who got shot, and his family, they have suffered a loss too.

But my heart-felt support is for the cop and his family.

[Swoop]

I just watched the TV1 news, there was an eye witness interviewed who says this fella was running towards the cop with the hammer above his head!
Interesting. The "not the gubbinment mouthpiece" channel interviwed several witnesses, one who clearly stated that the retard carpenter was standing quite still.

The truth will be watered down and diluted as it always will be.

The other small point...
We have had comments that the "media" will distort and twist the facts.
Obviously there is the other side of the coin where the police are doing just that with their "press releases".
15 all.

[peasea]

Ahhh, TV1. What a crew, huh? Throw everything through the rose-tinted filter and spew out the truth for all to enjoy.:clap:

[Swoop]

A small point that has been missed from the discussion so far...

Pepperspray.
Better for up-close and personal conditions.

[peasea]

A small point that has been missed from the discussion so far...

Pepperspray.
Better for up-close and personal conditions.

If the operator has the nozzle pointing in the right direction. Far safer to give him a gun.

[Hitcher]

I love the double-standards on this site at times.

According to the weight of opinion around here it's OK for some chef on a bus to bury a 25cm knife to the hilt into somebody he thought was threatening him; but it's not OK for a cop in the same city to shoot some dude who wants to do him harm with a hammer?

Perhaps rednecks don't like the Police dispensing vigilante justice for them?

[doc]

Yeah, me too. Once again a good guy uses force to protect himself, and the system plus assorted bleaters comes down on him.

Get real, some I think might be geting thru the system and joining just to do this..... Society is breaking down .Look at KB'r not what it was. False moon Landings, 3/11 to get elected. The war on terror . It's only news which is a sale issue here. Now back to a bike related subject. Which 250 should I choose?

[shafty]

My question is not really about this case alone... Im hoping someone can answer it for me...

Fair enough, when a cop feels they are under pressure, shoot! But 4 bullets? Hmmm excessive IMO.

The other night we were watching one of these cop programmes and police were empying their guns on people. I asked my partner why this happens, he says you need to keep shooting until the threat is no longer a threat... surely one or two bullets would do that? Or am I being naive again?

WHAT IF..........we find there were 4 shots, namely 2 warning shots, then a leg shot, then the fatal shot? Fairer. From what I hear, that may be the case,

[shafty]

I can't wait to hear from the family. "Oh he was such a lovely boy"

Exactly, like the way Wallace was made out to be a University Student, rather than unemployed ex student drop out.

NZ Public: 1 Loser: Nil

[Krusti]

Get real, some I think might be geting thru the system and joining just to do this..... Society is breaking down .Look at KB'r not what it was. False moon Landings, 3/11 to get elected. The war on terror . It's only news which is a sale issue here. Now back to a bike related subject. Which 250 should I choose?


Yeah............ Breaking news....krusti cut his hair off.....helmet now too big!......

[JimO]

if the policeman hadnt shot him perhaps the result would have been this........:bash:

[TLMAN]

if the policeman hadnt shot him perhaps the result would have been this........:bash:

Hahaha AWESOME.

Thats the best use of a smiley ive seen yet!!

[Manxman]

if the policeman hadnt shot him perhaps the result would have been this........:bash:

..and what would the media's reaction have been then, I wonder???

[Reckless]

A small point that has been missed from the discussion so far...

Pepperspray.
Better for up-close and personal conditions.

The commander on close up explained about the use of pepper spray, Wind has to be right etc etc. Didn't look like it was the thing here.


I love the double-standards on this site at times.

According to the weight of opinion around here it's OK for some chef on a bus to bury a 25cm knife to the hilt into somebody he thought was threatening him; but it's not OK for a cop in the same city to shoot some dude who wants to do him harm with a hammer?

Perhaps rednecks don't like the Police dispensing vigilante justice for them?
Hitch you are bang on this time mate! bling will be sent.

Well the young witness on Close up cleared it up for me. Told it, like he saw it (except for the hair in his eyes), the cop had no choice. then that bloody Mark Sainsbury starts asking questions Like "Did the cop have time to turn and run away" for fucks sake now do we want our Police force to turn and run at the site of trouble! Jeepers where do we get these interviewers!
My thoughts and good wishes go to the cop!! Hope he doesn't get to much hassle over this event. I wouldn't think he would have asked for his day to turn out this way when his shift started.

[peasea]

The commander on close up explained about the use of pepper spray, Wind has to be right etc etc. Didn't look like it was the thing here.


Hitch you are bang on this time mate! bling will be sent.

Well the young witness on Close up cleared it up for me. Told it, like he saw it (except for the hair in his eyes), the cop had no choice. then that bloody Mark Sainsbury starts asking questions Like "Did the cop have time to turn and run away" for fucks sake now do we want our Police force to turn and run at the site of trouble! Jeepers where do we get these interviewers!
My thoughts and good wishes go to the cop!! Hope he doesn't get to much hassle over this event. I wouldn't think he would have asked for his day to turn out this way when his shift started.

Like I said, TV1 are a wonderful crew.
If what that youngster says is true then this will make the third time I'll leap to the defence of the Wooden Tops.

[98tls]

Simple really.......dont take a hammer to a gunfight :whistle:Cant really see what other choice the cop had ,if the guy messed someone up with the hammer and there were armed police there the media would be screaming "why didnt they shoot him"blah blah blah,thoughts go out to the cop must have been a hell of a day for him.

[SVboy]

Have to agree-hell of a hard thing for the cop to live with, for the rest of their life. It isnt like tv!

[Swoop]

The commander on close up explained about the use of pepper spray, Wind has to be right etc etc. Didn't look like it was the thing here.
If the "commander" was the same silly bitch that was interviewed on 3, she is putting out so much speculation I wouldn't believe anything she said.
Various answers spouting forth, but when the difficult questions started... "I wasn't there, BUT...."


Pepperspray squirts in a stream and is quite directional.
Who knows?

Truth is the first victim.
As I said previously, "15 all" to the media.

[peasea]

If the "commander" was the same silly bitch that was interviewed on 3, she is putting out so much speculation I wouldn't believe anything she said.
Various answers spouting forth, but when the difficult questions started... "I wasn't there, BUT...."


Pepperspray squirts in a stream and is quite directional.
Who knows?

Truth is the first victim.
As I said previously, "15 all" to the media.

Now, now; that "silly bitch" is one of our finest.:spanking:

Where are all kb's 'finest' this evening? Dishing out 111kph paperwork, defending the meek?

Hiding under rocks?

Busy creating the truth?

[Mr. Peanut]

Nah i'd rather it be bradford, sue that is.

As for the "victim", good riddance. The world is devoid of one more meathead. If you are too thick to stop what you are doing when a cop draws his gun then you've got no sympathy from me. Good stuff to the copper for making a good job of it, unlike the case with the gunman loose in upper hutt, he killed him and which means no taxpayer money wasted on hospital treatment.

The cop wouldn't be allowed to fire his gun, lest he exceed his carbon credit quota.

[Skyryder]

I love the double-standards on this site at times.

According to the weight of opinion around here it's OK for some chef on a bus to bury a 25cm knife to the hilt into somebody he thought was threatening him; but it's not OK for a cop in the same city to shoot some dude who wants to do him harm with a hammer?

Perhaps rednecks don't like the Police dispensing vigilante justice for them?

The cop who shot Guy Wallace walked the chef did not. I just wonder where we got the double standards from.


Skyryder

[Toaster]

I hope not............I mean if the guy had a hammer, surely the Police don't have to resort to guns to stop guys like this.

What about the riot gear with shields?

How would you know if you were not there confronted as he was?

[Toaster]

Simple really.......dont take a hammer to a gunfight :whistle:Cant really see what other choice the cop had ,if the guy messed someone up with the hammer and there were armed police there the media would be screaming "why didnt they shoot him"blah blah blah,thoughts go out to the cop must have been a hell of a day for him.

Yep, and try "hell of a next two years" as he or she goes through a homicide invetigation, a PCA investigation and Coroners investigation all the while as all the armchair critics around NZ who think they know better not ever having been in a violent situation like this but still condemn the cops actions without the facts but just a blind opinion they think are so righteous. The cops made a decision under extreme pressure in a split second.

Lets wait for the full investigation and not get carried away with the usual bullshit "trial by media" that sells papers and increases ratings for organisations that don't give a blind toss whether or not someone is innocent or guilty as long as it brings them profits.

[Skyryder]

Lets wait for the full investigation and not get carried away with the usual bullshit "trial by media" that sells papers and increases ratings for organisations that don't give a blind toss whether or not someone is innocent or guilty as long as it brings them profits.

Fuck no. I might dead by the time that happens. As you get older you don't have time to wait for facts. :argue:

Skyryder

[sAsLEX]

My question is not really about this case alone... Im hoping someone can answer it for me...

Fair enough, when a cop feels they are under pressure, shoot! But 4 bullets? Hmmm excessive IMO.


9mm don't have all that much stopping power, the debate has been fought on the internet or years on there inadequacy for police work
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm%20vs%2045.htm etc

A pitbull in the states took 6 rounds to the head before dropping.



SEVENTEEN bullets in a Glock 17 mag.

But hey, the idea is once you start cranking on the trigger you keep doing so until the oxygen thief 'complies' and ceases to be a threat.

We have no limit on how many shots we can sail into threat.:msn-wink:

You carry a spare mag? I guess the slide stays back on an empty mag making reload nice and quick? And does the Glock have a safety catch and are they in the holster with one up the spout?




The result is that if your shooting much more than 30 or so meters with a handgun, you may as well throw it at them (personal opionion).


The maximum effective range of a 9mm pistol is 50m, but in reality most engagements are under 15m


years ago a cop was killed by a fuckwit with a screwdriver ... got him in the carotid artery (IIRC) so "found objects" can be very effective. Murray Stretch I think was the cops name... poor bastard.

and any Joe Public that lives in that area of town has an axe to grind with the Pleece, no question.

One of the young guys I looked after in a course was proud he had "stuck the popo" with a screwdriver. This is a 17 year old "gangsta", the streets are dangerous out there in Aeoteoroa nowadays.



Pepperspray.
Better for up-close and personal conditions.

Would pepper spray actually stop them ? I doubt it if 9mm rounds are sometimes ineffective in small numbers at slowing people who are enraged etc


WHAT IF..........we find there were 4 shots, namely 2 warning shots, then a leg shot, then the fatal shot? Fairer. From what I hear, that may be the case,

The NZ Police would not fire warning shots, or they would be breaking protocol at a guess, my training was if you pull that trigger it is only for effective rounds aimed at CoM.

[Toaster]

Fuck no. I might dead by the time that happens. As you get older you don't have time to wait for facts. :argue:

Skyryder

Hehe, good point!! At my age and with my heavy drinking I am bound to be dead by then.... hic!!:apint:

[devnull]

Glock has an extremely clever safety on it.
If gunsmithing is of interest, it's definitely worth have a look at how they work - very cool.

And back on topic - good on the cop for doing what was necessary - pity we have so many wankers in the media (esp. TV3)

[Toaster]

pity we have so many wankers in the media (esp. TV3)

overpaid wankers too!!

[sAsLEX]

Glock has an extremely clever safety on it.


So thats another moment the cop has to spend taking that off.

No safety on the pistol I am used to, except the one residing between the ears.

[Grahameeboy]

How would you know if you were not there confronted as he was?

I know and have said in earlier posts that we need to know full facts....trubs is we may never know them I guess.

[sAsLEX]

I know and have said in earlier posts that we need to know full facts....trubs is we may never know them I guess.

Well the truth has come to light http://stuff.co.nz/4217339a10.html

[NighthawkNZ]

mate, i think it was overkill...excuse the pun

was a good shot though :chase:

[Finn]

I know and have said in earlier posts that we need to know full facts....trubs is we may never know them I guess.

This isn't a court GB, it's a public forum. This degenerate picked a fight with the police and lost. Quite simple really.

The sun rose this morning, the birds are singing and children are playing. We're doing quite fine without him.

[Grahameeboy]

Well the truth has come to light http://stuff.co.nz/4217339a10.html

Well all I can say it is a shame that a man who was not himself gets shot for using a hammer............

[Grahameeboy]

This isn't a court GB, it's a public forum. This degenerate picked a fight with the police and lost. Quite simple really.

The sun rose this morning, the birds are singing and children are playing. We're doing quite fine without him.

We were doing fine with him as well.

I don't think it is that simple but that's me.

[Finn]

Well all I can say it is a shame that a man who was not himself gets shot for using a hammer............

Well there's plenty of builders in this country that need a bullet between their eyes so this isn't such a bad thing.

[Grahameeboy]

Well there's plenty of builders in this country that need a bullet between their eyes so this isn't such a bad thing.

Was he a builder then?

[sAsLEX]

Well all I can say it is a shame that a man who was not himself gets shot for using a hammer............

Yeah damn shame he was forced to take those drugs....

[Grahameeboy]

Yeah damn shame he was forced to take those drugs....

I agree, still a shame though thats all.

[Finn]

Was he a builder then?

A smiley spells a thousand words... :whocares:

Or just two in this case.

[Paul in NZ]

Well the truth has come to light http://stuff.co.nz/4217339a10.html

I look at that picture, shudder and thank my lucky stars i was born into the family I was - humble, working class but relatively normal..... Far out... Theres a shooting and dad lets his 5year old rush up to a police officer... Ignore that the kid should have been in bed..... etc etc... (sigh - we are doomed)

[Usarka]

The cops should not have guns or even tasers. Come on, these guys are dealing with mature adults. You can't beat violence with violence. there are ways the cops can deal with this; first they need to talk to the person and make them understand why what they are doing is wrong. if the person still doesnt listen they then need some time alone to reflect on their behaviour (eg in the police car or cell). violence is unnaceptable in our society, even as a form of discipline. Guns and tasers is lazy policing.

[sAsLEX]

The cops should not have guns or even tasers. Come on, these guys are dealing with mature adults. You can't beat violence with violence. there are ways the cops can deal with this; first they need to talk to the person and make them understand why what they are doing is wrong. if the person still doesnt listen they then need some time alone to reflect on their behaviour (eg in the police car or cell). violence is unnaceptable in our society, even as a form of discipline. Guns and tasers is lazy policing.

I seriously hope you missed the pt at the bottom of that.

They are not in the vast majority of cases dealing with anything that approaches mature yet alone adult in allot of cases. Have you dealt with any of the upcoming generation of bloods and crips that think it is alright to stick the popo or someone wearing the wrong colour?

Go back to your fantasy land and play with the Care Bears.

[pritch]

But the pussy's don't even shoot for the head!

I have no idea what Police training is, other than inadequate, (and I have watched them train).

Military training is to aim at the centre of mass which, for the unititiated, means the middle of the biggest bit you can see. Generally that will not be the head.

Shooting things out of the hand with a pistol (or Clint Eastwood's shooting oranges out of a tree ) are pure fantasy.

[u4ea]

The cops should not have guns or even tasers. Come on, these guys are dealing with mature adults. You can't beat violence with violence. there are ways the cops can deal with this; first they need to talk to the person and make them understand why what they are doing is wrong. if the person still doesnt listen they then need some time alone to reflect on their behaviour (eg in the police car or cell). violence is unnaceptable in our society, even as a form of discipline. Guns and tasers is lazy policing.

watched closeup last night and the witness Chris Young said as he was waiting for pizza the "victim" asked to get in his car!Chris didnt like his aggressive attitude and (in his words)told him to bugger off.Then drove around the block.When he came back he saw the 'victim' running toward the cop with hammer raised above his head and the cop shot him at about a metre as the stuff site says.The witness Chris was not a freind or neighbour and (although had hair oin his eyes,)seemed quite articulate in his statement.I suspect the 'victim' was on more than party pills.Sounds like pee to me.It seems with what ever the 'victim' had in his system maybe the tazer would have killed him too.More like a suicide now as he chose to digest those pills!He played with fire and got burned.The investigation will be a goody.Cant wait for the ortopsy results to come out and see what 'party pills' turn normal people into insane lunatics.(I dont like party pills ,are they like pee after 4 days use?????)My opinion only.

[Hitcher]

Sounds like pee to me.

I drank my own for a week in preparation for Talk Like A Pirate Day. It was a hard habit to break.

[u4ea]

I drank my own for a week in preparation for Talk Like A Pirate Day. It was a hard habit to break.

eeewww...:pinch:.....my problemm is :zzzz::ride: .. trying to live my dream is an adiction

[Finn]

The cops should not have guns or even tasers. Come on, these guys are dealing with mature adults. You can't beat violence with violence. there are ways the cops can deal with this; first they need to talk to the person and make them understand why what they are doing is wrong. if the person still doesnt listen they then need some time alone to reflect on their behaviour (eg in the police car or cell). violence is unnaceptable in our society, even as a form of discipline. Guns and tasers is lazy policing.

What about "tea and biscuits". Perhaps a bath would do the trick as well. My Grandmother always used to say that a nice hot bath would take away all your troubles.

[Usarka]

Splendid! thermos flasks should become the standard issue law enforcement tool.

[sAsLEX]

What about "tea and biscuits"?

To be honest it sounds oh so colonial and English, we wouldn't want to add fuel to a fire by being racially insensitive to past injustices.

Therefore I suggest some of the following:

Kava
Taro
Double Brown
Cigarettes
Meths
P......

[Goblin]

I love the double-standards on this site at times.

According to the weight of opinion around here it's OK for some chef on a bus to bury a 25cm knife to the hilt into somebody he thought was threatening him; but it's not OK for a cop in the same city to shoot some dude who wants to do him harm with a hammer?

Perhaps rednecks don't like the Police dispensing vigilante justice for them?I think you'll find the majority of people here think the cop did the right thing in shooting the meathead. I just hate the double standard that says if Joe Public defends himself he'll do prison time but a cop will go through PCA, have counseling and professional help to get over it.

[Hitcher]

Cops are paid to be in dangerous situations to take care of the rest of us who lack the wherewithall to deal with deranged and determined drongoes. I don't think that they're paid enough. And I agree with the Constable quoted in this morning's papers that they're definitely not paid enough to warrant going home in a box.

[Coldrider]

Why do policemen get themselves in a position where they are threatened, then have to use lethal force to defend themselves.
How close do you need to get to a P head with a hammer, golf club etc. in the first instance.
I do not like the thought of being de-sensitised by the police or media to killings.
It is a slippery slope to where history has been before.
Everyone who becomes invloved in a saga such as this becomes a loser.

[Finn]

And I agree with the Constable quoted in this morning's papers that they're definitely not paid enough to warrant going home in a box.

I thought they all drove Holdens???

[u4ea]

Why do policemen get themselves in a position where they are threatened, then have to use lethal force to defend themselves.
How close do you need to get to a P head with a hammer, golf club etc. in the first instance.
I do not like the thought of being de-sensitised by the police or media to killings.
It is a slippery slope to where history has been before.
Everyone who becomes invloved in a saga such as this becomes a loser.

Can I come live in your nice happy crimefree,safe little bubble??????:beer:

[Goblin]

Well if they kicked rickards off the payroll there would be more to go around eh.
Cops are paid to protect and serve the public so they choose to put themselves in these situations every day. If there are no police around when these gangs of hoodies cause trouble why should the public be imprisoned for defending themselves?

[u4ea]

Well if they kicked rickards off the payroll there would be more to go around eh.
Cops are paid to protect and serve the public so they choose to put themselves in these situations every day. If there are no police around when these gangs of hoodies cause trouble why should the public be imprisoned for defending themselves?

must spread bla bla bla..

It is sucky that chef got nailed for defending himself and a cop has all the rights over joe public..home invasion laws dont have the same relevance when your'e minding your own business confined in a public transport vehicle unfortunatly.

[scott411]

Why do policemen get themselves in a position where they are threatened, then have to use lethal force to defend themselves.
How close do you need to get to a P head with a hammer, golf club etc. in the first instance.
I do not like the thought of being de-sensitised by the police or media to killings.
It is a slippery slope to where history has been before.
Everyone who becomes invloved in a saga such as this becomes a loser.

what should the cop do,

should he stand their and wait till the guy is too tired to keep hitting stuff,

if you threaeten a cop with any sort of weapon, and they guy pulls a gun and you still advance, you deserve to be shot, end of story,

[imdying]

Witnesses can't even agree on the number of bullets... somewhere between 2-8... what's the bet this poor cop will get hung out to dry on the words of a few numb nuts members of the public that need to STFU if they can't even count.

[Marmoot]

Fair enough, when a cop feels they are under pressure, shoot! But 4 bullets? Hmmm excessive IMO.

Why don't they just use the laser guns? They say it's very accurate.

[Usarka]

Why don't they just use the laser guns? They say it's very accurate.

they'd then also be able to tell how fast he was approaching the cop.

remember the faster you go, the bigger the mess!

[Tank]

they'd then also be able to tell how fast he was approaching the cop.

remember the faster you go, the bigger the mess!

Now thats funny!

[Skyryder]

Witnesses can't even agree on the number of bullets... somewhere between 2-8... what's the bet this poor cop will get hung out to dry on the words of a few numb nuts members of the public that need to STFU if they can't even count.

It will come down to witness credibility. There are two conflicting areas here. One says that the offender was approacing the cop with hammer raised. Cop warned him. The other says the offender had both arms at his side when shot.

As I mentioned in earlier posts my initial concern was that 'other weapons may have been involved.' When I hear 'side issues' of may or may not be involved my sceptatism kick in. Never been one afraid to change sides :Punk:when on the losing one:angry2: and after reading the media reports in the Press this morning I'd tend on the the side of the copper. But hey if it goes the other I'll switch as quick as it takes some of you to get hard on. :headbang::2guns:

Skyryder

[Coldrider]

Can I come live in your nice happy crimefree,safe little bubble??????:beer:
No you can't, it is a very nice bubble.

[Skyryder]

Splendid! thermos flasks should become the standard issue law enforcement tool.

Along with the standard gang 'tinny' issue. "Now listen her sony put the hammer down and we'll have a toke together and sort this out."

Saw something like this happen at a party with two guys who were prepared to tear each other eyes out. Maybe the American Indians were onto something with the peace pipe.

Skyryder

[imdying]

It will come down to witness credibility. There are two conflicting areas here. One says that the offender was approacing the cop with hammer raised. Cop warned him. The other says the offender had both arms at his side when shot.Would be nice if all police cars had cameras, and all police officers had a head cam. No more arguments, judge sees what really went down, everyone is happy.

[Coldrider]

what should the cop do,

should he stand their and wait till the guy is too tired to keep hitting stuff,

if you threaeten a cop with any sort of weapon, and they guy pulls a gun and you still advance, you deserve to be shot, end of story,
Could taken him down to the impound yard and let him rip on all the subarus in there, could have done some EV0's as well.

[oldrider]

But hey if it goes the other I'll switch as quick as it takes some of you to get hard on. :headbang::2guns:

Skyryder

Well don't hold your breath if you are counting me in on that one! :bye: Then again, takes another peek at 007XX's avatar! :done: :banana: :innocent: :Offtopic: John.

[Delerium]

Witnesses can't even agree on the number of bullets... somewhere between 2-8... what's the bet this poor cop will get hung out to dry on the words of a few numb nuts members of the public that need to STFU if they can't even count.

Thats fairly easy to find out though. I imagine the weapons are signed out, or a in the cars with a full mag. How many rounds less does the mag now have = number of shots fired.

[imdying]

Thats fairly easy to find out though. I imagine the weapons are signed out, or a in the cars with a full mag. How many rounds less does the mag now have = number of shots fired.I don't think the witnesses will be allowed to touch the gun though :lol: It's not the number of bullets in question, it's the reliability of the witnesses.... amazing how everyone saw something different.

[Delerium]

I was referring to the police investigation. I don't know if they will release this information to the public though

[Dilligaf]

The cops should not have guns or even tasers. Come on, these guys are dealing with mature adults. You can't beat violence with violence. there are ways the cops can deal with this; first they need to talk to the person and make them understand why what they are doing is wrong. if the person still doesnt listen they then need some time alone to reflect on their behaviour (eg in the police car or cell). violence is unnaceptable in our society, even as a form of discipline. Guns and tasers is lazy policing.

And a hug. Don't forget everyone needs a :hug:





:rolleyes:

[davereid]

I think you'll find the majority of people here think the cop did the right thing in shooting the meathead. I just hate the double standard that says if Joe Public defends himself he'll do prison time but a cop will go through PCA, have counseling and professional help to get over it.

We will have to watch this one develop. As U4EA commented, the witness with his hair in eyes appeared rational and had no agenda, so his witness statement that the guy was running at the cop with the hammer raised is (at least at this early stage) the most likely.

So, of course the cop had every right to shoot.

Goblin makes the point that there is clearly a double standard, and cops get away with more than Joe Public, and I think she is right.

But..

Cops are carefully selected, professionally trained, have the correct tools, backup, and are always aware that the situation they are going into might be dangerous.

Joe Public on the other hand is untrained, and generally is selected at random, by a criminal, often when he or she is asleep in bed, or minding their own business on the bus.

So if there is to be a double standard, we should be expecting the Police to manage these situations better than average Joe.

For my money, all kiwis should be absolutely protected by the law when they use force in self defence. And if its a little grey, the benefit of the doubt should go to Joe Public, not the criminal.

That is to say Joe Public should not be expected to react as prudently as a policeman.

The propensity of the police heirachy to absolutely prosecute any citizen who dares defend himself may have hardened public attitudes for police who do the same.

[peasea]

Cops are paid to be in dangerous situations to take care of the rest of us who lack the wherewithall to deal with deranged and determined drongoes. I don't think that they're paid enough. And I agree with the Constable quoted in this morning's papers that they're definitely not paid enough to warrant going home in a box.


Not paid enough? Pay them any more and they'll be running out and buying up Harley Havidsons and V8's for gawd's sake. Then what? Total anarchy...

[peasea]

We will have to watch this one develop. As U4EA commented, the witness with his hair in eyes appeared rational and had no agenda, so his witness statement that the guy was running at the cop with the hammer raised is (at least at this early stage) the most likely.

So, of course the cop had every right to shoot.

Goblin makes the point that there is clearly a double standard, and cops get away with more than Joe Public, and I think she is right.

But..

Cops are carefully selected, professionally trained, have the correct tools, backup, and are always aware that the situation they are going into might be dangerous.

Joe Public on the other hand is untrained, and generally is selected at random, by a criminal, often when he or she is asleep in bed, or minding their own business on the bus.

So if there is to be a double standard, we should be expecting the Police to manage these situations better than average Joe.

For my money, all kiwis should be absolutely protected by the law when they use force in self defence. And if its a little grey, the benefit of the doubt should go to Joe Public, not the criminal.

That is to say Joe Public should not be expected to react as prudently as a policeman.

The propensity of the police heirachy to absolutely prosecute any citizen who dares defend himself may have hardened public attitudes for police who do the same.

You appear to be a sane, rational person. What are you doing on kb?

[pritch]

Not paid enough? Pay them any more and they'll be running out and buying up Harley Havidsons and V8's for gawd's sake.

What? Like Scumdog?

God it's happening already...

[TLMAN]

The cops should not have guns or even tasers. Come on, these guys are dealing with mature adults. You can't beat violence with violence. there are ways the cops can deal with this; first they need to talk to the person and make them understand why what they are doing is wrong. if the person still doesnt listen they then need some time alone to reflect on their behaviour (eg in the police car or cell). violence is unnaceptable in our society, even as a form of discipline. Guns and tasers is lazy policing.

OH MY GOD WHAT FUCKING PLANET DO YOU COME FROM!!

[peasea]

What? Like Scumdog?

God it's happening already...

Head for the hills!!!
Oh crap, that's where he lives isn't it?

[peasea]

OH MY GOD WHAT FUCKING PLANET DO YOU COME FROM!!

Yeah, reckon. They do need something to defend themselves these days, it's not like days of old when Mr Plod could donk Noddy on the head with a wee baton, those P'd up nutters have guns and knives more often than not. Reason goes out the window pretty quickly on that shite.

[Swoop]

So thats another moment the cop has to spend taking that off.
Have a look at the glock. No manual safety fitted, but look at the little lever sticking out from the trigger. That's it.

I think you'll find the majority of people here think the cop did the right thing in shooting the meathead.
:niceone:

I was referring to the police investigation. I don't know if they will release this information to the public though
Possibly just counting the spent casings on the road might work...

Cops are carefully selected, professionally trained, have the correct tools, backup...
Have you been watching too many Merkin' cop shows again?
How long did it take for our :Police: to get their fancy vests???

[Delerium]

Have a look at the glock. No manual safety fitted, but look at the little lever sticking out from the trigger. That's it.

:niceone:

Possibly just counting the spent casings on the road might work...

Have you been watching too many Merkin' cop shows again?
How long did it take for our :Police: to get their fancy vests???


Yes there is that, Didnt even think of it.

[doc]

What about "tea and biscuits". Perhaps a bath would do the trick as well. My Grandmother always used to say that a nice hot bath would take away all your troubles.
A lavender bath if they were really really upset.

[Edbear]

Can't really imagine a Policeman shooting a guy who was simply standing still without a weapon and his hands down at his sides.

The coppers know what they're going to go through if they shoot anyone whether fatally or not, so I tend to think the witness who said he was running at the cop with the hammer over his head and that after he was shot and let go of the hammer it skidded along the road, was probably right. :yes:

Of course I wasn't there... So I could be totally mistaken...

[roogazza]

I was going to say I was in the job for a very long time , and , and, but I won't !! Gaz.

[jonbuoy]

How can they shoot to injure when hes running at them with a hammer? If they go for the legs and miss a bullet goes flying down the street to hit god knows what/who. Anywhere on his torso and theres a fairly good chance its going to hit something fairly important. Taser would have been best.

[Paul in NZ]

FFS - the guy did something REALLY stupid - he ran at a cop with a gun with a weapon in his hands.....

Same city, a motorcylist goes through a controlled intersection and hits a pole and dies - speed and alcohol likely to be involved...

Dumb choice, similar outcome....

People do dumb shit and die every day...... Move on

[sAsLEX]

It will come down to witness credibility. There are two conflicting areas here. One says that the offender was approacing the cop with hammer raised. Cop warned him. The other says the offender had both arms at his side when shot.

As I mentioned in earlier posts my initial concern was that 'other weapons may have been involved.' When I hear 'side issues' of may or may not be involved my sceptatism kick in. Never been one afraid to change sides :Punk:when on the losing one:angry2: and after reading the media reports in the Press this morning I'd tend on the the side of the copper. But hey if it goes the other I'll switch as quick as it takes some of you to get hard on. :headbang::2guns:

Skyryder

Witnesses are hardly worth the air they breathe. Heard a case recently were 7 different witnesses from an assualt inside a mini van could not agree on the layout of the van's seat..... 7 different versions....... I mean come on!

[Skyryder]

Witnesses are hardly worth the air they breathe. Heard a case recently were 7 different witnesses from an assualt inside a mini van could not agree on the layout of the van's seat..... 7 different versions....... I mean come on!

Try telling Rob Pope that. But I'm not unsympathetic to your post.


Skyryder

[caesius]

Looks like this cop was rather trigger happy at past incidents. I don't understand what they said on the news last night, something about a party pill induced rage, wtf? Party pills don't do that. And he's old - party pills are for having fun - old people don't have fun.

So many mysteries.

[Bren]

And he's old- party pills are for having fun - old people don't have fun.


Gee thanks...I believe he was 37, same age as me.....I HAVE FUN....especially sitting back polishing my tea spoon collection:lol:....us geriatrics in our mid thirties can always find fun things to do...

[Patrick]

I hope not............I mean if the guy had a hammer, surely the Police don't have to resort to guns to stop guys like this.

What about the riot gear with shields?

You seen the results of a hammer? I have, mum and 3 kids killed by the dad at Morningside.


There has been no information that the offender was rushing or about to rush the officer. In fact a witness has come forward and stated the offender had his arms at his side at the time of the shooting.

Skyryder

Yeah, his mate neighbour, covered in prison tats, obviously friendly to the constabulary at the best of times...:innocent: Plenty of other independant witnesses saying this is not the case...


years ago a cop was killed by a fuckwit with a screwdriver ... got him in the carotid artery (IIRC) so "found objects" can be very effective. Murray Stretch I think was the cops name... poor bastard.

Cop in Napier was stabbed in the neck by a screwdriver and lived but had partial paralysis. Murray was killed at Mangakino attending a burglary, catching the guy who then stomped him to death, but hey, he wasn't armed, so that is OK I guess....:brick:

Doesn't matter how good you are looking after yourself... there is always someone out there who is going to be much much better than you....


A small point that has been missed from the discussion so far...

Pepperspray.
Better for up-close and personal conditions.

Of course... it always works... cheap shit stuff that doesn't work too many times to rely on. Yep, spray him, realise that didn't work, reach for your baton... oh, is that my brain sitting over my face from that hammer blow? :done:


..and what would the media's reaction have been then, I wonder???

Small item in the inside pages is my guess..... certainly not front page headlines for anywhere near as long this or the Wallace thing was, thats for sure...


The cop who shot Wallace walked the chef did not. I just wonder where we got the double standards from.

And still we hear nothing more on this chef saga... creative journalism springs to mind? Useless lawyer is another.... perhaps the gang bangers weren't that at all? Perhaps they were gobby and didn't hit him at all and he just went after them and shanked one because he could?

[Swoop]

Of course... it always works... cheap shit stuff that doesn't work too many times to rely on. Yep, spray him, realise that didn't work, reach for your baton...
I would have thought that it would be much easier to defend in front of a judge/jury though, even if both were being dispensed at the same time.
"I tried the spray but he didn't stop, so BANG"
In fact, bang x4.
This officer does appear to know how to draw his firearm.

[Patrick]

Well the truth has come to light http://stuff.co.nz/4217339a10.html

Nope... that was the newspaper "The Truth"... right?????


Why do policemen get themselves in a position where they are threatened, then have to use lethal force to defend themselves.
How close do you need to get to a P head with a hammer, golf club etc. in the first instance.
I do not like the thought of being de-sensitised by the police or media to killings.
It is a slippery slope to where history has been before.
Everyone who becomes invloved in a saga such as this becomes a loser.

We do it because no one else will stop them... what were all his mates doing, what about the rather large matey neighbour watching it all?

Quite right about all being a loser, just the loser is dead and the cop will have to go through a whole heap of bollocks all because he did something no one else would... stop the loser. Try and take out a cop with a hammer, when he is armed, well....... Darwin at his best.


Looks like this cop was rather trigger happy at past incidents. I don't understand what they said on the news last night, something about a party pill induced rage, wtf? Party pills don't do that. And he's old - party pills are for having fun - old people don't have fun.

So many mysteries.

Trigger happy????? Where the hell does this shite come from??? Have there been a number of Police shootings he has been involed in??? Is he the Waitara shooter of Wallace??? (I KNOW he isn't). Was he on the grassy knoll for JFK??????:gob:

[Patrick]

I would have thought that it would be much easier to defend in front of a judge/jury though, even if both were being dispensed at the same time.
"I tried the spray but he didn't stop, so BANG"
In fact, bang x4.
This officer does appear to know how to draw his firearm.

My bet is this...

Cop "Hey fella, put the hammer down." (Calm talking approach)
Shithead "Get fucked pig, I'm gonna smash your brains out" as he heads toward him.

Cop has two options, run? The guy is faster than him and takes him out with a hammer to the back of the head... hmmm.....

Confront? Yep, it is what we have to do, we have been called, we now have to do something..... Now he is advancing with a weapon and he is only a few feet away. Make a decision on what weapon to use? Spray? Shit probably won't work, end result, dead cop. Baton? Against a hammer? Maybe... big maybe... result, dead cop, probably... Tackle and overpower? He is a martial arts expert, end result, dead cop. While weighing up all these "options" he is closer than ever, still intent on seeing his hammer imbedded inside your skull.

All concentration on drawing and using your gun to ensure you go home to your family safe and well?

Hmmmmmm..... choices, choices....:buggerd:

[Manxman]

Nope... that was the newspaper "The Truth"... right?????



We do it because no one else will stop them... what were all his mates doing, what about the rather large matey neighbour watching it all?

Quite right about all being a loser, just the loser is dead and the cop will have to go through a whole heap of bollocks all because he did something no one else would... stop the loser. Try and take out a cop with a hammer, when he is armed, well....... Darwin at his best.



Trigger happy????? Where the hell does this shite come from??? Have there been a number of Police shootings he has been involed in??? Is he the Waitara shooter of Wallace??? Was he on the grassy knoll for JFK??????:gob:

Mate, you are just SO onto it. Very astute, logical and most importantly.....correct on all counts. If I could double bling ya, I would!

To those apathetic people who like believing everything that the press & media put in front of you, then read this guy's posts first. Believing everything that you passively see on TV is called "received opinion", which is very different to sorting through the facts (very hard in these days of throwaway journalism) and reaching an "informed opinion"...

F*CK, the media have so much to answer for, and yet are so unaccountable for their actions.

[Swoop]

Cop has two options, run?
Confront? All concentration on drawing and using your gun to ensure you go home to your family safe and well?
With that mindset and options, your belt will be far lighter.
Forget handcuffs/pepperspray/baton, the perp is always a "martial arts expert" 9th dan in origami, etc...
We know that you have to confront. Runners are not an option.

[Patrick]

With that mindset and options, your belt will be far lighter.
Forget handcuffs/pepperspray/baton, the perp is always a "martial arts expert" 9th dan in origami, etc...
We know that you have to confront. Runners are not an option.

Nah... 99.99999% of the time, the tools do work. Sometimes the spray works, sometimes the baton works, sometimes scrapping it out works. Sometimes talking works and is all that is needed.

It is just that one off once in a lifetime incident that comes up on you completely unexpected, that the media will crucify you for, for the next xxxx number of years, because you felt it was better that you go home to your family in one piece, instead of going home in a box.....

[Edbear]

My bet is this...

Cop "Hey fella, put the hammer down." (Calm talking approach)
Shithead "Get fucked pig, I'm gonna smash your brains out" as he heads toward him.

Cop has two options, run? The guy is faster than him and takes him out with a hammer to the back of the head... hmmm.....

Confront? Yep, it is what we have to do, we have been called, we now have to do something..... Now he is advancing with a weapon and he is only a few feet away. Make a decision on what weapon to use? Spray? Shit probably won't work, end result, dead cop. Baton? Against a hammer? Maybe... big maybe... result, dead cop, probably... Tackle and overpower? He is a martial arts expert, end result, dead cop. While weighing up all these "options" he is closer than ever, still intent on seeing his hammer imbedded inside your skull.

All concentration on drawing and using your gun to ensure you go home to your family safe and well?

Hmmmmmm..... choices, choices....:buggerd:



And like he had all the time in the world to weigh up and consider all the options...:cool:

What kind of a person runs at a Cop threatening to clobber him, when the Copper has a drawn gun after being warned? More like "suicide by Police", something you hear about from time to time...

And when the Police are called, they have to do something to stop the offender. Strange, I know, but apparently it's something to do with their employment contract and the training they go through...:baby:

But what the hey! It's all fun to speculate without all the facts, eh?

[Coldrider]

Yes Patrick you are right, in the back of my mind what happened is logical, but this is Rant or Rave and in our perfect world we would like to live in somehow things could have had a different outcome.
An experienced (not using the word trained), police officer would have known that a confrontation of this type was a possibility.
This incident should be a wake up call for leisure party pill users.
No doubt the many 'investigations' that will follow will give us the answers.

[Edbear]

An experienced (not using the word trained), police officer would have known that a confrontation of this type was a possibility..



What would be the first thing a Cop is going to think when hearing of someone smashing up vehicles in the street with a hammer?

"What's this guy on?" "Is he a hyped-up 'P' user?"

One would be very cautious in approaching an offender under these circumstances. One cop got stabbed in the guts simply by approaching a known P user in the street and saying "Hullo"!

You CANNOT reason with someone hyped up on P, and not knowing what the offender's state of mind is, or if he's on it or some other drug, wouldn't you take the cautious approach? Pepper spray won't do a thing in such a circumstance. Even a Tazer would be questionable at such close range and with so little time as the cop apparently had to react. A cop once described a situation where even the Glock failed to stop a guy after two bullets!

[Grahameeboy]

You seen the results of a hammer? I have, mum and 3 kids killed by the dad at Morningside.







I understand in that situation, just not sure why the Police do not have training to deal with this kinda attack.

Cannot help being a softy.........

[devnull]

Well said Patrick...

The best report was given on TV1 - straightforward account - offender charges at armed cop, offender shot at less than 2m range. Can't say that the offender wasn't given enough time to think about his actions.

Pity TV3 hasn't been hauled up before whatever licencing authority controls broadcasting... talk about wanker central. They don't give a rats ass about accurate reporting, so long as they can boost ratings

[Swoop]

Pity TV3 hasn't been hauled up before whatever licencing authority controls broadcasting... talk about wanker central. They don't give a rats ass about accurate reporting, so long as they can boost ratings
Interesting that they were simply stating what had been put to them from eye witness accounts.

The sooner that the tvnz gubbinment mouthpiece is privatised, and ceases to be a drain on the taxpayer, the better.
Get rid of continuation street and shortarse street as well.:2thumbsup

[Skyryder]

Interesting that they were simply stating what had been put to them from eye witness accounts.

The sooner that the tvnz gubbinment mouthpiece is privatised, and ceases to be a drain on the taxpayer, the better.


TV 3 is private. That's what you get with privatisation.

Skyryder

[Timber020]

Bet the PR people for the police have alot less work on there hands because the guy was a pakeha.

[RT527]

Ok This really is starting to Piss me off...One of my workmates was attaked with a hammer....dragged from his truck and is very lucky to be alive, all done with a hammer....so youd rather stand there and with riot gear on huh...well guess what if he got a well aimed hit in the face down the cop goes...and if he goes down with armor on , hes in trouble...that shit weighs some.
you guys are great at saying it shouldnt have happened...well guess what it friggan did and I say he`s there to protect life and property, so let him do his friggan job......if the fella wasnt going loose cannon in the first place then there would have been no prob ....But he did and he payed for not stopping.

so dont tell me an 18 oz hammer doesnt to much damaged , my workmate is still hurting from his attack both mentally and physically.

And if im reading this right, there were people in a car that he had already tried to gain access too, so what if the cop had decided to wait, and the offender drags the person from his car and whacks him, and possible killed him, just to get away in the car...would that be ok in your eyes, cause thats what some of you seem to want to happen....

Then it would be shit why didnt the cop use his gun..then that poor innocent bystander would still be alive.


If im proved wrong and this was an unjust shooting I will eat humble pie.
But im picking that this cops carrer is over even if he is innocent of unjustified manslaughter...Go the cops you have my support.

[Coldrider]

The death has to be challenged, even the Police top brass do that.
My point is that knowing the possible danger involved, why did the officer get so close to the hammerman, that was the defining moment so to speak.
It is interesting how a man with a hammer can take on the 'might of the state', no wonder Helein locked the Skyhawks away.
Anyway I hope the officer recovers well and is able to continue his duties.
Oh, and I won't even mention the scum that profits from the sale/supply of drugs/so called party pills, but I suppose there has to be customers to supply.

[RT527]

I don't think the witnesses will be allowed to touch the gun though :lol: It's not the number of bullets in question, it's the reliability of the witnesses.... amazing how everyone saw something different.

Lol try asking at an accident if anyone saw what happened...it goes something like this...

Më "hi, did you see what happened"
Them " yeah''
Me '' So?''
Them '' I heard a bang , turned around and that car was in the pole''
Me '' So you saw it happen''
Them ''Yeah , like i said there was this bang........and that guy was thrown out of the window''
Me '' So how did the guy land , was it head first ?''
Them '' dunno I heard a bang and next thing I know theres a car in the pole and that guy lying over there''
Me '' But you said you saw it happen ''
Them '' Yeah I did ''
Me ''Was that before or after the bang''




You can see that this conversation wasnt getting me much to go on so i could give informed 1st aid to the poor fella in the car or on the ground.

98 % of people hear an accident or incident take place and react.

[pritch]

There is an awful lot of uninformed speculation hereabout and I seemed to recall that a book I had here had some statistics. These figures came from the USA but would not be too dissimilar to similar incidents here.

The figures are derived from over 6,000 shooting incidents involving Police:

Surprise was a significant factor in most of the cases.

In the vast majority of cases the area was poorly lit at the time.

The average distance of an armed encounter was between six and seven feet.

The average duration was 3.2 seconds.

So, you are surprised, it's dark, there is a guy two metres away who wants you dead. You have three seconds to analyse the situation, consider the alternatives, then stop the guy. Or not.
(In 254 of the 6000 incidents the officer was killed.)

The lawyers though will have years for their analysis...

If you feel strongly that the Police should try pepper spray, Tazers, or time out, please feel free to join the force and lead by example.:whistle:

[sAsLEX]

Bet the PR people for the police have alot less work on there hands because the guy was a pakeha.

But they have already got the Maori priest guy to lift the Tapu that the white guy inflicted on the area....

[I Smell Bacon]

The unreliability of eye witness accounts is well known to police, the courts and to lawyers.

The media probably know this too but they won't let it get in the way of a good story. Defence lawyers choose to ignore the fact too when they find they have numerous eyewitnesses to call in their clients defence.

Here's something I found, third link down on a google search of "unreliability of eyewitness accounts".

http://www.fclr.org/docs/2006fedctslrev3.pdf

Eyewitnesses are in most cases nothing more than bystanders that actually witness only a very small part of the event.

[peasea]

The unreliability of eye witness accounts is well known to police, the courts and to lawyers.

The media probably know this too but they won't let it get in the way of a good story. Defence lawyers choose to ignore the fact too when they find they have numerous eyewitnesses to call in their clients defence.

Here's something I found, third link down on a google search of "unreliability of eyewitness accounts".

http://www.fclr.org/docs/2006fedctslrev3.pdf

Eyewitnesses are in most cases nothing more than bystanders that actually witness only a very small part of the event.

True, eyewitnesses can be funny things/people. Some years ago a mate an I were in the pooh somewhat and two cops were called to give evidence. One got it completely wrong while standing in the box and the other told the truth. Both were present at the time of the incident but had strangely conflicting stories. Luckily the man in black saw fit to believe the truth and off we went home with a fair old lawyer's bill, which confirmed my suspicions about justice being only for those who can afford it.

However, nobody died at that particular incident and while it's highly unlikely the cops go out shooting all and sundry just coz they can whatever evidence is produced, how it is produced, whoever saw the goings-on and whatever comes to light you will never satisfy everyone.

As for the claims of party pill consumption in this instance; I have taken my share of those things and they're not for me, very uncool come-down and it wouldn't bother me if they banned them. I have taken a fair few of those things at one time and seen others do the same, even combined with alcohol and/or pot but never have I seen anyone go on any sort of hammer-wielding rampage, or any sort of rampage for that matter. He would have to have been on something else with or without the party pills. In all my years of drug taking the worst offenders when it comes to violent behaviour have been P and alcohol.

No doubt they'll be taking some blood from this dude, so let's see if the results are made public. I doubt he was sitting watching Coro' with a cup of tea and a biscuit.

[Delerium]

The death has to be challenged, even the Police top brass do that.
My point is that knowing the possible danger involved, why did the officer get so close to the hammerman, that was the defining moment so to speak.
It is interesting how a man with a hammer can take on the 'might of the state', no wonder Helein locked the Skyhawks away.
Anyway I hope the officer recovers well and is able to continue his duties.
Oh, and I won't even mention the scum that profits from the sale/supply of drugs/so called party pills, but I suppose there has to be customers to supply.

Tell me again how the disbandment of the air combat wing is relevant, here? (sorry not trying to be patronising, I dont see the connection is all)

[Manxman]

Interesting that they were simply stating what had been put to them from eye witness accounts.

...yeah but what ever happened to corroborating your story? "That" account of 'hands by side, standing passively, <smiling nicely no doubt...>, came from only a small minority (two people?) . Everyone else told the same version of events, but TV3 still chose to focus on these two 'revered' members of society (did anyone see the photo of them in the paper...nuff said). Credibility issues here, I think.

TV3 used to be the channel that got the real deal behind events...not anymore - heck even Campbell has lost the plot, and moderated big time since famously ripping into HRH Clark a few years ago.

[Goblin]

.. (did anyone see the photo of them in the paper...nuff said). Credibility issues here, I think.Let me get this straight....does this mean if a witness is big and tattooed and tough looking, they are not a credible witness? If so, that cuts out a shitload of police officers as witnesses.

[Manxman]

Let me get this straight....does this mean if a witness is big and tattooed and tough looking, they are not a credible witness? If so, that cuts out a shitload of police officers as witnesses.

Valid point...guilty of prejudging :2guns:

...just been on jury service, where one police officer repeatedly said "I were at...", instead of "I was at..." :eek5:

Rest of my point remains however...

[Goblin]

Valid point...guilty of prejudging :2guns:

...just been on jury service, where one police officer repeatedly said "I were at...", instead of "I was at..." :eek5:

Rest of my point remains however...Yes I get your point! Valid point it is too.

Funny, when I was at school, looong time ago, there was this particular P.I. guy that wasn't exactly very intelligent but he did play in the first fifteen...infact he was so good at rugby he stayed in the fifth form for three years and 6th form for 2 years so he could play rugby. The school loved him! He left school and joined the force.:Police:

[devnull]

The so-called "eye witness" had his story published in the Herald. Creative, to say the least...

On a lighter note - Why Cops Hate You - http://www.lawenforcer.net/whycops/whycops.htm

[pritch]

You seen the results of a hammer? I have, mum and 3 kids killed by the dad at Morningside.

There was also Ken Piggott(?) killed by hammer wielding 14 year old girl in Waitara just a few years ago.

It is now thought that Roman gladiators injured beyond hope of recovery were "euthanased" with a hammer blow.

Many normally benign commonplace objects can do a turn as a weapon. How'd you like to be attacked by someone wielding a chisel? Not for me thanks.

Lately we've had several instances of people using cars as weapons with lethal intent.

Just because it isn't a gun or a knife doesn't mean it isn't potentially deadly.

[Patrick]

Yes Patrick you are right, in the back of my mind what happened is logical, but this is Rant or Rave and in our perfect world we would like to live in somehow things could have had a different outcome.
An experienced (not using the word trained), police officer would have known that a confrontation of this type was a possibility.
This incident should be a wake up call for leisure party pill users.
No doubt the many 'investigations' that will follow will give us the answers.

Which is why I am replying and ranting and raving... Of course it was a possibility, he arrived after being called... What did you expect him to do then? Surely not to just sit there and do nothing while he did whatever he did, possibly carjacked someones car and smacked them with a hammer for it? Interesting... really really strange, but interesting....


I understand in that situation, just not sure why the Police do not have training to deal with this kinda attack.

We do... he did....:first:


Pity TV3 hasn't been hauled up before whatever licencing authority controls broadcasting... talk about wanker central. They don't give a rats ass about accurate reporting, so long as they can boost ratings

Whatever makes a story... "Never let the facts get in the way of a great story..."


Interesting that they were simply stating what had been put to them from eye witness accounts.

The sooner that the tvnz gubbinment mouthpiece is privatised, and ceases to be a drain on the taxpayer, the better.
Get rid of continuation street and shortarse street as well.:2thumbsup

Intersting how TV3 only found the disgruntled anti Police witnesses out of all those that were present and only print or play out that side of the possibly disgruntled version only..... bugger the rest and what they saw...


you guys are great at saying it shouldnt have happened...well guess what it friggan did and I say he`s there to protect life and property, so let him do his friggan job......if the fella wasnt going loose cannon in the first place then there would have been no prob ....But he did and he payed for not stopping.

so dont tell me an 18 oz hammer doesnt to much damaged , my workmate is still hurting from his attack both mentally and physically.

And if im reading this right, there were people in a car that he had already tried to gain access too, so what if the cop had decided to wait, and the offender drags the person from his car and whacks him, and possible killed him, just to get away in the car...would that be ok in your eyes, cause thats what some of you seem to want to happen....

Then it would be shit why didnt the cop use his gun..then that poor innocent bystander would still be alive.


If im proved wrong and this was an unjust shooting I will eat humble pie.
But im picking that this cops carrer is over even if he is innocent of unjustified manslaughter...Go the cops you have my support.

To be fair, the majority are supporting the copper here. A hammer is deadly alright, I've seen the results up close at Morningside and just howe far ones brains will squirt when hit by a hammer.

Too right, to protect life and property, especially his own, don't ya all think???????

His career will be fine. I like sauce on humble pie.... and donuts....


My point is that knowing the possible danger involved, why did the officer get so close to the hammerman, that was the defining moment so to speak.

He didn't by the look of it... Police arrive after being called, no doubt with red and blues going. Cop gets out of the car, as we do when we get to what we have been called to... The dead guy was next to the cop car... it looks to me like the dead guy advanced on to the cop, not the other way around...


Let me get this straight....does this mean if a witness is big and tattooed and tough looking, they are not a credible witness? If so, that cuts out a shitload of police officers as witnesses.

Possibly more to do with the tattoo type... prison tat verses professional tat....

[Manxman]

Ok This really is starting to Piss me off...One of my workmates was attaked with a hammer....dragged from his truck and is very lucky to be alive, all done with a hammer....so youd rather stand there and with riot gear on huh...well guess what if he got a well aimed hit in the face down the cop goes...and if he goes down with armor on , hes in trouble...that shit weighs some.
you guys are great at saying it shouldnt have happened...well guess what it friggan did and I say he`s there to protect life and property, so let him do his friggan job......if the fella wasnt going loose cannon in the first place then there would have been no prob ....But he did and he payed for not stopping.

so dont tell me an 18 oz hammer doesnt to much damaged , my workmate is still hurting from his attack both mentally and physically.

And if im reading this right, there were people in a car that he had already tried to gain access too, so what if the cop had decided to wait, and the offender drags the person from his car and whacks him, and possible killed him, just to get away in the car...would that be ok in your eyes, cause thats what some of you seem to want to happen....

Then it would be shit why didnt the cop use his gun..then that poor innocent bystander would still be alive.


If im proved wrong and this was an unjust shooting I will eat humble pie.
But im picking that this cops carrer is over even if he is innocent of unjustified manslaughter...Go the cops you have my support.

Don't worry mate, you're N-O-T wrong. Too many bl**dy do-gooders round the world these days. I totally share you're frustration at sh*t like this. Problem is, it will take two more years of media speculation (rather than fact) to sort this out, and yeah the guy's career is probably all but over because of someone who sounds like they were looking at someone completely different to the bloke that everyone else saw with hammer raised...

Cop was right, bloke was wrong. E-n-d-o-f-s-t-o-r-y.

Yes, sympathy for those he has left behind, who cannot understand why he did it, and are very confused about this...BUT does the cop know this when he's about to have his head caved in?????? Errr, NO.

FFS lighten up people. Get off the cops backs and go find something more productive with your (overly) spare time. This is real life, serious consequence stuff we're talking, not some f**ken varsity thesis.

Bring back:
1) common sense,
2) taking reponsibility for your own actions, and
3) a damn sight more kicking of the tail that currently wags the dog...!
...in that order.

\Carotid artery settling down again; rant over\

[Finn]

I think the Police should introduce quotas for disharging their firearms. It'll have the place cleaned up in no time. That and public executions.

Scumsuckers must die.

P.S. I don't think Labour can count on Manxmans vote. Good work mate.

[Coldrider]

I think the Police should introduce quotas for disharging their firearms. It'll have the place cleaned up in no time. That and public executions.

Scumsuckers must die.

P.S. I don't think Labour can count on Manxmans vote. Good work mate.
Yes, I'm convinced now.
We should start with alcohol abusers, then move on to drug users, anyone who has guns, knives & hammers in their homes, then anyone projecting a missile (vehicle faster than a hammer) at more than 20KPH over the speed limit (they are prepared to kill) which is threatening innocent motorists ahead (this often leads to tears), instant lead poisoning behind the ear at the roadside (we are not into double standards at KBer are we?)
Then who is next?

[Manxman]

Yes, I'm convinced now.
We should start with alcohol abusers, then move on to drug users, anyone who has guns, knives & hammers in their homes, then anyone projecting a missile (vehicle faster than a hammer) at more than 20KPH over the speed limit (they are prepared to kill) which is threatening innocent motorists ahead (this often leads to tears), instant lead poisoning behind the ear at the roadside (we are not into double standards at KBer are we?)
Then who is next?

..where shall I start...:lol:

[Coldrider]

..where shall I start...:lol:
Won't be just Chinese consumption driving up the price of lead then?....

[Manxman]

Won't be just Chinese consumption driving up the price of lead then?....

I've come to my senses, calmed down and given myself a slap around the head.

How could I possibly have thought that someone with a hammer running at an armed cop, deserved nothing more than a nice cup of tea and a chat?

Silly me.

Long live Labour!

\returns to dark corner\:calm:

Oh BTW, ppl who do those other things mentioned (drink excessively, drug excessively, speed excessively, etc) don't deserve a bullet....just the consequence of their actions...ie the personal responsibility bit.

[Finn]

Nothing beats a good ol police shootout.

***WARNING - VERY GRAPHIC***

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hztH-GRUyec&mode=related&search=

[Manxman]

Nothing beats a good ol police shootout.

***WARNING - VERY GRAPHIC***

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hztH-GRUyec&mode=related&search=

F*ck, that's way too graphic for me.:laugh:

Must say however, that M.O.P-47s might just be the way to go...more effective that Tazers, less blood than guns.;)

Everyone's a winner.

[Swoop]

The media in this country is devious...
Please do not limit it to just us.
Every media outlet has its bias. Worldwide.

[I Smell Bacon]

Nothing beats a good ol police shootout.

***WARNING - VERY GRAPHIC***

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hztH-GRUyec&mode=related&search=

They should have sent this joker along.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ryOME46swQ&mode=related&search=

[davereid]

Quote Dynamytus50 "A lot of that has to do with the gunshop case. The media deliberately misrepresented the case in the papers with headlines like "Police charge gunshop owner over shooting" This would lead most people to think that he was charged because he shot the man who pulled a machete on him. Police never charged him with that, they accepted that he acted within the law to protect himself. He was charged with having a loaded .45 cal colt firearm behind his desk."

I agree with virtually all your post.

But, I can't agree with the section above.

Factually you have it perfect. But this is just more evidence of the obsession of the Police heirachy to absolutely prosecute anyone who uses force (but particularly firearms) in their own defence.

Remember that by this time police had already lost virtually every firearm-self defence case they had taken.

I can't remember them all, but others on site will.

In fact I can't actually remember an anti self defence case the police won.

The McIntye case had just been sorted - thats where the police charged farmer Paul McIntye for shooting (armed) Sam Hati, and while much poorer, McIntyre won.

So, police didn't change the policy - they just realised that they would not win.

So they changed tactic - now they charge people with unlawful possession of a weapon, etc etc.

So just in the last couple of days, we see a morrinsville farmer (Bonner) lose his firearms licence and waiting to see if police are going to charge him, for his firearm usage in the arrest of two burglars. That must be in the public interest.

We see a chef defend himself, get charged with attempted murder, and get offered a 2yr sentance for GBH if he just pleads guilty.

I can't be bothered going back in time, but the pattern repeats over and over.

And then the police shake their heads with disbelief when Joe Public expects the same level of restraint from them as they require of Joe Public !

Police HQ need to take a serious look at themselves, prosecuting normal people for defending themselves from criminals (Particularly when police won't do the job) is not the way to get community support.

By no way does this mean I don't support the individual policeman involved in these kind of events.

But I'm sorry to say It's hard to be completely sympathetic when I know that if I wake up at 2am to a noise on the farm, and make exactly the same kind of split second decisions that the cop has to make, that I'll find the police do everything they can to send me to jail.

Unless I'm dead.

[Grahameeboy]

They can't carry the taser anymore as the trial period has finished and the weapon has been withdrawn for service for the government to evaluate if it's needed.

Hammers are bad; if you are hit with it the force often chips a small round piece of your skull out and sends it into your brain.

If an armed Police Officer points a glock at you and tells you to put it down and you charge him with it raised over your head then you are inviting the inevitable. Police are not punching bags or nails to hammer into the ground.




I know but they could teach the Police some simple self defence to handle hammer hardnuts.

Trouble was this guy probably had no idea what he was doing cause he was off his head so the threat of being shot was not in his consciousness.

Okay we can argue that the pills were his choice but would this happen if the guy was drunk??

I just feel that this should have been apparent to the Police, given his prior behaviour, ie he was not just a violent offender and that shooting was not appropriate.

At same time I understand that the cop was in danger. I guess they don't have baton's anymore?

I don't blame the cop. He reacted in the agony of the moment and I am sure he is not too happy either..just think that this incident could be used to look ar alternative measures.

[candor]

I wonder if the dead guy was pro or anti taser?

And I seriously doubt this was just party pills. Why are the media interviewing potential homicide witnesses? Isn't that a bit naughty, given it could prejudice any trial? Should they be charged with something - is there any particular offence that covers this?

It seems to me the NZ media has been getting far too opinionated about certain goings ons and tried far too much to influence outcomes eg Rickards / Nicholls. Arrest one.

[Grahameeboy]

No i completley disagree. Unarmed tactics like Akido may work wonderfully in the realitive calm of a dojo but on the street i can tell you that kinda stuff often doesnt work. More traditional fighting styles like Boxing and even that Todd Group stuff are probably the best styles that actually work, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Often it comes down to the individual than the technique. But i can tell you know no Police Officer should have to forcibly go toe to toe with a crazy man running on drugs and adrenaline holding a hammer with only his flimsy extendable baton to protect himself. As far as im concerned he representated an immediate threat to the Officers life and he was left with no alternative other that what happened.

I have no doubt i would of done the same thing in his shoes. As far as i can see the only alternative would of been a taser which is no longer currently in use.

I understand but many years ago I put a guy who attacked me in Hospital with little effort using Aikido which is effective regardless of opponents weight etc..............as you know you use the other guys harmony and it is very effective...............as you say it is a different story to the Dojo which is why I gave it up knowing what I could do, albeit I had was cornered and had no choice...preference being to run.

Look I do not condone the cop or you for using the gun..........just a shame to me.

[Hitcher]

The media just wants to get the "news" first. One thing the "news" coverage has shown is just how terribly reliable eye-witnesses are. People see what they want to see.

[jrandom]

The Officer waited until he was in striking distance before firing...

I would have thought, in fact, that this would have been a breach of accepted tactics. Although I suppose that the officer having his weapon drawn and ready to fire gave him the ability to choose the moment. Still, he did go further than he absolutely had to in terms of endangering himself. I applaud his bravery.

A sad business, but I question the sanity of anyone who does not, given the information currently at hand, support the officer's actions.

[scumdog]

Pepperspray squirts in a stream and is quite directional.
Who knows?

Truth is the first victim.
As I said previously, "15 all" to the media.

Sure, from how far away?

And does it work EVERYTIME on EVERYBODY??

Used pepperspray a bit have you??

[Edbear]

There are people who will not reason, listen or even engage in conversation. They are violent dangerous people whether through drug or their nature. Sometimes Police are left with no choice other than force to be used against the person to subdue to prevent the public, the Police or the offender himself being harmed. In situations like this one the Police Officer appealed to the person and it was not until the offender refused to put down his hammer and charged the officer that he opened fire. Your comments are ignorant and ridiculous..




I think his comments were a p/t, mate...:2thumbsup

[98tls]

:banana:damn i just knew this shit would still be going,the guys dead because he tried to hit someone on the head with a hammer,personally i am glad he chose a cop with a gun to do it to instead of some innocent joe public,at least in this case we can be sure its the last time he tries that shit on anyone.