Run! It's the White Collar Criminals!

[Angusdog]

Okay, begin rant:

From this article on LA-style polynesian gangs on Stuff (http://www.stuff.co.nz/4223415a11.html)

All fair points; I can't understand this fascination with LA gang culture, and divesting yourself of your own rich heritage. It's all a bit assumed identity, a reverse-aspirational mindset. I believe the police are correct, in that gangs (of any description) are a threat.

But check out this gem, from NZ's academic on these matters:

Criminologist Greg Newbold said LA-style gangs were a threat in their own neighbourhoods, but not a general threat to New Zealanders.
He believed white-collar crime and domestic violence were bigger problems.


Yup, that's me. I shit myself inside out at the thought of White Collar Criminals coming up to me in the street and beating me up. Or running me down in their BMW. Nicking my cellphone and roughing up my suit (if I wore one). What a load of bullshit. Who, in the general public, is worried about "white collar crime"? What is white collar crime? Are your kids at risk of this criminal element when they're walking home from school?

Or is it just fraud? I personally couldn't give a rat's about fraud. Never harmed me, probably never will.

I propose that Mr Greg Newbold sticks to the argument, and not foisting us with the red herring of undisclosed "white collar crime" - it makes the whole topic a racial one: Groups of brown people aren't the threat, you need to be worried about white accountants.

[ManDownUnder]

I offer you two webpages to consider.

The dude (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=57370)
The deed (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10458568)

Also - before you diss Greg Newbold... you do know his past right? Like who he is... and more importantly - who he was...

[Angusdog]

Yes, actually; Point taken. I feel genuine sympathy for such victims, although it's easier to "put right" than crimes of violence which are abhorrent and have much longer lasting effects.

[idleidolidyll]

You seem to misunderstand Newbold.
In our society, a burglar who sneaks in and steals a few TV sets when people are not home is punished far more severely than white collar crims who ruin the lives of hundreds or even thousands of people.

Recently David Richwhite agreed to an out of court settlement with the NZ Govt for tens of millions of dollars. He's still going about his daily life even as a burglar who harmed nobody and stole a few grands worth of electronics languishes in prison.

[Paul in NZ]

One suspects Mr Newbold is not a fan of broken windows policing? there is a good explanation / discussion here..

http://www.ambiguous.org/robin/word/brokenwindows.html

I'm not sure either way BUT I'm sure that it is the petty street thuggery that actually makes most people fearful of their safety - not fraud (in general).

If the police are worried about the $$ cost of crime - white collar is maybe the way to focus but from the human side... Those youth gangs are an issue..

[Mr Merde]

Could someone please explain to me who these persons are

Greg Newbold

David Richwhite.


Without knowing any background I am not able to understand the discussion


Merde

[Angusdog]

No, he states that the general public don't have to worry about Crips & Bloods, we do need to worry about white collar crime. I find that argument laughable. Although I know nothing about the case of David Richwhite, it's almost certainly a tax issue. That's what big business does: business, and business attracts tax and everyone tries to avoid tax. A lot of it is in the interpretation, as in the case of the Christchurch businessman who eventually triumphed over the IRD. What's the difference between him and David Richwhite? I don't know but probably interpretation.

And the threat to the general public's wellbeing from David Richwhite? I venture to suggest it's minimal. How safe is it to walk through South Auckland?

[Swoop]

Could someone please explain to me who these persons are

Greg Newbold

David Richwhite.
Richwhite = Fay/Richwhite merchant bankers?
http://www.arena.org.nz/railcase.htm

Newbold. Ex-crim now turned "academic" on everything crim...
http://www.soci.canterbury.ac.nz/people/staff-gn.shtml
Depending on what you look at, there are differing views of him...
http://www.massey.ac.nz/~wwexmss/Offcampus/November2003/Letters.htm

[idleidolidyll]

Could someone please explain to me who these persons are

Greg Newbold

David Richwhite.


Without knowing any background I am not able to understand the discussion


Merde

It would probably be dangerous to speculate too much on the Michael Fay and David Richwhite sage since these guys have hundreds of millions of dollars to defend their reputations with.

In the 80's these two sold NZ's assets to their favourite bidders making huge profits for themselves. There seemed to be something dodgy at the time and the Govt recently tried to go Richwhite for about $100 million but settled out of court without an admission of guilt for about $35 million.

The sale of assets damaged NZ considerably and placed valuable assets in the hands of foreigners. Thousands of jobs were lost and lives ruined. Some will say it was needed but try telling that to those who lost everything.

Michael Fay was awarded a NZ Honour for effectively selling off our assets and using the money (part of it) to fund an Amerikas Cup challenge.............

Greg Newbold is an activist from way back, a criminologist, a professor and as far as I can tell, his greatest crime was selling a few joints. That of course, is more than enough for the rednecks and cops to vilify him.

[Mr Merde]

Thanks for the information. I will read what I can with great interest.

Hopefully it will alow me to form an opinion and possibly participate in this conversation


Merde

[Swoop]

Michael Fay was awarded a NZ Honour for effectively selling off our assets and using the money (part of it) to fund an Amerikas Cup challenge.
You might like to check the dates on that.
He funded the '86/'87 challenge but I don't recall much financial involvement after that.
The "sell-off" debacle happened after that ('93).

[idleidolidyll]

the asset sales started in earnest in the late 80's f(labour) rom memory but i'm happy for you to offer up other evidence

[Tank]

"Criminologist Greg Newbold said LA-style gangs were a threat in their own neighbourhoods, but not a general threat to New Zealanders."

Where Newbolds argument runs into problems is that the LA style gang actions (selling drugs etc) start to impact everybody - not just their own neighbourhood.

They sell the drugs - people need to steal to get money to buy the drugs - the circle of crime just gets bigger and bigger - it impacts all walks of life and all neighbourhoods.

He also says Domestic violence is a bigger problem - however forgets to mention that stats show domestic violence is greater in lower social economic areas - the same neighbourhood that have the piece of shit LA style gangs.

Now - I also agree that white collar crime is also serious and ruins lives also - but I think that the argument in this thread is out of context.

The LA style gangs are a problem - there are places you simply cannot safely because of them. And now the little shits are getting in cars going to richer neighbourhoods looking for trouble (like the kid who was stabbed a couple of weeks ago). This is what the article was talking about.

Newbord's effort to focus on another problem area dosnt take away the fact that the gangs are a issue.

[idleidolidyll]

"Most of us probably also missed an amazing piece of analysis by Brian Gaynor in the Business Herald last Saturday. The picture he drew, from information on the public record, had a lot more to say about what's been wrong in this country than any argument on Winebox points of law.

His column was about Michael Fay and David Richwhite and a series of transactions in which their merchant bank was involved between 1986 and 1993 - involving their companies European Pacific, Capital Markets and Fay, Richwhite and the Bank of New Zealand, Tranz Rail and Telecom.

In the course of five major transactions, Fay and Richwhite personally pocketed over half a billion dollars - at the same time as their minority shareholders lost $277 million. Someone of less moderate inclination than Gaynor might say that they basically raped their shareholders.

And the worst of it is, the government helped them do it, handing them sweetheart deals like the Telecom share option arrangement in September 1993, which allowed Fay and Richwhite to pocket $274 million from Telecom share sales without having to put up a penny in advance. While they wallowed around in cash, their shareholders made precisely nothing."

source: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL9909/S00027.htm

"Sir Michael Fay should lose his knighthood and Securities Commission chairwoman Jane Diplock should be honoured instead, Labour MP Shane Jones told Parliament yesterday.

And he said Sir Michael and his business partner David Richwhite would not be welcome back in New Zealand until they "atone for their wrongdoing".

Mr Jones was speaking in a snap debate moved by New Zealand First leader Winston Peters, whose own speech replicated fiery ones of years past on the Bank of NZ bailout and Winebox transactions that involved other Fay and Richwhite companies.

"It makes Donna Awatere look like an angel," said Mr Peters.

Under parliamentary privilege, he said the businessmen had been held out to be paragons of virtue but were "nothing but crooks, and cheap crooks at that".

Sir Michael was knighted in 1990 after his America's Cup challenges in Australia and San Diego but knighthoods and damehoods were abolished by the Labour Government.

Mr Jones, chairman of the finance and expenditure select committee, said Ms Diplock "should become Dame Jane and we should strip Fay of his knighthood and give it to her".

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He also said Government regulators should vet Sir Michael's ownership of Mercury Island off Coromandel, implying that he should be regarded as an overseas owner because he did not live permanently in New Zealand."

source: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/3/story.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10446793

there's plenty more of course but I'm sure you get the gist.

[Swoop]

the asset sales started in earnest in the late 80's f(labour) rom memory but i'm happy for you to offer up other evidence
After the time you alledge they (he) used the profits to fund a boatrace.
I suggest that you produce some concrete evidence to show Fay/Richwhite involvement in asset sales prior to '86 to validate your claim.

Their personal involvement in getting the America's Cup campaign underway (1984?) got them in favour with the gubbinment, a "foot in the door" if you will.

[Timber020]

Newbold works hard to keep his name in the papers, for the most part he is just flogging headlines without any substance. Hes as inspirational as a yellow stain on white underwear.

[Swoop]

Newbold works hard to keep his name in the papers, for the most part he is just flogging headlines without any substance. Hes as inspirational as a yellow stain on white underwear.
So he is a GENUINE academic then! Impressive.

[BIGBOSSMAN]

White collar vs violent L.A. styled street gangs? I'd rather be fleeced of my hard earned savings than spend the rest of my life eating through a straw, or worse, six feet under.
You can always make more money guys...:done:

[Kwaka14]

Newbold? I for one have had enough of the little shits that run up and down my road at 2am throwing bottles, attacking and terrorising the neighbourhood, damaging vehicles and property. My neighbours no longer leave their houses after 10 on a friday and saturday night because of the local street gang fucking Spartans my arse.... I wouldn't be happy if I got ripped off, but I'd get over it easier than losing a hand or my life to one of the useless shitheads that come out here. I must have called the cops 10 or 20 times in the last 12 months, last time there were a couple of groups - maybe 20 or more throwing bottles and fighting and the cops were too busy to come straight away, 15 or 20 minutes later they turn up. I live in a supposedly "reasonable area". These are all kids, 10-18 years old... Rant over

[HenryDorsetCase]

Oh yeah, the White Collar Criminals: I love that band, they had that song, what was it "Scooby Snacks"? You know with the pulp fiction intro?

[idleidolidyll]

YAWN!

The fallacy philes here continue to promote the ridiculous either or conundrum that's not actually a conundrum.

It's NOT a case of solving one or the other of these problems, it's possible to solve both problems; they are not mutually exclusive.

Street gang crime might best be solved by a return of neighbourhood beat cops (if our lazy cops are prepared to walk or ride bicycles) while white collar crime might be ameliorated by much harder/longer sentences and vilification for that kind of criminal.
Of course there will be other options as well but whining about one at the expense of the other is peurile.

Of course the visibility of street crime is much easier to identify (and whine about) that white collar crime so those with less inquiring minds will tend to fixate on it. White collar crime however, destroys livelihoods en masse, raises prices, depresses incomes and ruins our international reputation for honesty and integrity in business (NZ was rated in the top 3 recently).

BOTH forms of offending need to be addressed and the methods to do so are obviously quite different. Thinking that one must be addressed at the expense of the other though, is ridiculous.

[idleidolidyll]

After the time you alledge they (he) used the profits to fund a boatrace.
I suggest that you produce some concrete evidence to show Fay/Richwhite involvement in asset sales prior to '86 to validate your claim.

Their personal involvement in getting the America's Cup campaign underway (1984?) got them in favour with the gubbinment, a "foot in the door" if you will.

why? he was involved in TWO boat races and the point being made here is NOT where the direct funding of the amerika's cup came from but the kind of callous capitalist Fay is and the damage he did to NZ in order to make himself dripping rich.

[Wolf]

BOTH forms of offending need to be addressed and the methods to do so are obviously quite different. Thinking that one must be addressed at the expense of the other though, is ridiculous.
Quite right.

Dunno why the government doesn't instate harder punishments for the white collar criminals - they're hypocritical about everything else, why make an exception for white collar crime? It's not like they're going to allow themselves to be prosecuted under those laws any more than they allow themselves to be prosecuted for speeding or reading newspapers while they're driving...

And bring back the beat cop - probably armed and in pairs, these days. Get them to know the neighbourhoods and who the local toerags are.

I remember being stopped and questioned by a cop late one night when returning from the 24-hour service station after getting some smokes. He wanted to know who I was, where I lived and where I had been/was going. Said he liked to know what was happening on his patch.

Years ago and an older cop. Friendly, non-threatening, asked a shit load of questions that some PC fucktard is likely to say is a "breach of privacy" but might be handy to know if he found me battered to a pulp 20 minutes later.

Told me to get home as there were some right scumbags on the streets at that hour.

Used to get stopped and questioned by cops quite a lot - in my teens/early 20s, dressed in black and wandering around in the wee hours - only ever met one real arsehole and I have reason to believe the other cop who was with him tore him a second one after the way he spoke to me.

Anyone care to look up the costs of fixing up/rehabilitating victims of street crime and suggest to those wastes of oxygen at ACC that there might be higher priorities to fund the cops for than enforcing speeding tickets?

[Swoop]

why? he was involved in TWO boat races and the point being made here is NOT where the direct funding of the amerika's cup came from but the kind of callous capitalist Fay is and the damage he did to NZ in order to make himself dripping rich.
Fine. So you cannot back up your initial claim.

[idleidolidyll]

Quite right.

Dunno why the government doesn't instate harder punishments for the white collar criminals - they're hypocritical about everything else, why make an exception for white collar crime? It's not like they're going to allow themselves to be prosecuted under those laws any more than they allow themselves to be prosecuted for speeding or reading newspapers while they're driving...



sadly even our politicians are becoming indebted to corporate types (the very people who comit white collar crime) for donations and party funding. As long as we don't have a transparent political funding system (and we don't), politicians will in general pay back their funders with favours that reduce risk. It is likely that one of these favours is leaving white collar crime punishment alone and lax.

Yes, I AM a cynic and I beleive that's what we all should be. It helps prevent that wool being pulled over our eyes.

[idleidolidyll]

Fine. So you cannot back up your initial claim.

Frankly I just can't be bothered perusing your red herring. Try to stick to the subject, Merde asked who those guys were and I answered him with my own opinions as well as a couple of articles fully referenced.

[Swoop]

Frankly I just can't be bothered perusing your red herring. Try to stick to the subject, Merde asked who those guys were and I answered him with my own opinions as well as a couple of articles fully referenced.
You made a statement which was unable to be backed up. Your "fully referenced articles" were on points which were not relevant due to the timeframe involved. C+ for effort though.

[idleidolidyll]

You made a statement which was unable to be backed up. Your "fully referenced articles" were on points which were not relevant due to the timeframe involved. C+ for effort though.

and for your opinions you offered no references at all; you merely demanded that I offer them

Hilarious!

as i said, go chase your own red herrings

[The Pastor]

i'd ratehr be alive with no money than dead with no money.

[Wolf]

sadly even our politicians are becoming indebted to corporate types (the very people who comit white collar crime) for donations and party funding. As long as we don't have a transparent political funding system (and we don't), politicians will in general pay back their funders with favours that reduce risk. It is likely that one of these favours is leaving white collar crime punishment alone and lax.

Yes, I AM a cynic and I beleive that's what we all should be. It helps prevent that wool being pulled over our eyes.
National and Labour - the best (ha fucking ha) politicians that money can buy.

As for NZ First, you don't even need money to buy them - give Winston a high-ranking job and his Amazing Muppets will do whatever you tell him to tell them.

As for the Greens, unfortunately we can't even sell them for scientific experimentation.

So long as our gummint is made up of those four mongrels in collusion, we're screwed.

Oldrider's sig says it all: "Democracy New Zealand style: Hold mock elections every three years, to assist in reorganising the ruling dictatorship! :doh:"

[idleidolidyll]

National and Labour - the best (ha fucking ha) politicians that money can buy.

As for NZ First, you don't even need money to buy them - give Winston a high-ranking job and his Amazing Muppets will do whatever you tell him to tell them.

As for the Greens, unfortunately we can't even sell them for scientific experimentation.

So long as our gummint is made up of those four mongrels in collusion, we're screwed.

Oldrider's sig says it all: "Democracy New Zealand style: Hold mock elections every three years, to assist in reorganising the ruling dictatorship! :doh:"

At least we're not as bought and sold as Yanks. It just might be that Bush has never actually been elected (first time the Court gave him the job, 2nd time the extremely dodgy electronic vote system owned and run by his mates gave it to him)

Frankly I prefer the current system to the old winner takes all dictatorship.

[Finn]

New Zealand has a very low rate of white collar crime. The only significant case people seem to be able to remember are my idols.. Mike and David.

How about Government crime such as over taxing? 13 billion of our money sitting there waiting to be traded for votes.

[Wolf]

Frankly I prefer the current system to the old winner takes all dictatorship.
Especially since, on things that really matter, National and Labour have precisely the same policies - so it didn't realy matter who you voted for anyway.

[Wolf]

The only significant case people seem to be able to remember are my idols.. Mike and David.
And yours hasn't hit the headlines, yet. :devil2:

[Finn]

And yours hasn't hit the headlines, yet. :devil2:

Believe it or not, I have integrity when it comes to business. Doesn't seem to pay though, not in this environment where everybody want to screw everybody.

[Wolf]

Believe it or not, I have integrity when it comes to business. Doesn't seem to pay though, not in this environment where everybody want to screw everybody.
Was taking the piss, dude. Tongue was firmly in cheek. Nothing I've ever heard about you has ever suggested that you were unscrupulous.

[The Pastor]

its on the interer nets so it must be true!

[Lias]

its on the interer nets so it must be true!

My name is dodgy gollywog from Nigera #1 bank and I am being needing your assitance with a matter of the gravest urgency!

[The Pastor]

quick dodgy gollywog needs some help! what ever do you need help with?

[Lias]

Lagos, Nigeria.
Attention: Mr Renegade Master esq

Dear Sir,

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(b) your private telephone and fax numbers — for confidentiality and easy communication.

(c) your letter-headed paper stamped and signed.

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Please reply urgently.

Best regards

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[Wolf]

Lias: English far too good for a 419. D-