Robert Taylor and idleidolidyll's political debating thread

[Mr Merde]

Greeny/hippy bullshit;How can :

Agent Orange was a herbicide developed for military use. Chemically, the product was a 50/50 mix of two herbicides, 2,4,-D (2,4, dichlorophenoxyacetic acid) and 2,4,5-T (2,4,5 trichlorophenoxyacetic acid). These herbicides were both developed as weed killers in the 1940's, and were effective against broad leaf plants and several crops.

and:


Sodium Flouroacetate
(also known as sodium monofluoroacetate, compound 1080 or 1080) is a potent metabolic poison that occurs naturally as an anti-herbivore metabolite in various plants.

Be called "cousins"?


The problem with Agent Orange,was the dioxin contaminant it contained.
The same dioxin that is produced when chlorinated household water sterilises organic matter or when a good kiwi bloke burns rubbish in his backyard incinerator.

but we won't let ignorance of chemistry get in the way of some good hippy propaganda,will we?

I thank you for the information. Always good to know when one has it wrong.

As to hippie, far from it.

I am a hunter who enjoys his chosen sport and who has been through areas where 1080 has been delivered by air.

Not even the sound on an insect.

How come all other countries in the world has banned distrubution of this poison by airr but NZ. Cost.



As to Agent Orange, that chemical our beloved government (whichever party) claims was never dropped on our troops.

That shit is a major reason for the death of my father aged 68. 3/4 of his lung capacity gone. No operation on a heart complaint.

He told me he used to wake up in Nui Dat (NZ base in Sth Vietnam) covered in the stuff. It was in their water and in their food.

[avgas]

I agree. Michael Schumacher is another good example of one who has donated millions. Perhaps these sort of people are in fact the ''ultimate redistributors'' The difference being that people have been happy to part with money to witness their performance firsthand.
Money is cheap.

[Mully]

Money is cheap.

Can I have some then??

[avgas]

There is a consistent theme that I am sure everyone can agree upon, POWER CORRUPTS. Be it Capitalism, communism or whatever.
While i agree with almost everything that you have said in that statement....i disagree on the final part.
Power doesn't corrupt, the corrupt seek the power.
The uncorrupted are happy living away from it all.

[avgas]

Can I have some then??
Yep - its all out there for you - all you have to do is spend you TIME and EFFORT

[Mully]

Yep - its all out there for you - all you have to do is spend you TIME and EFFORT

But I don't wanna. Surely the gummint will give me some if I'm unwill, er I mean unable to work.

[BIGBOSSMAN]

What's happened to LenIIIn today? I was enjoying his utterly neutral stance on all things political..:msn-wink:

[Mr Merde]

What's happened to LenIIIn today? I was enjoying his utterly neutral stance on all things political..:msn-wink:

He informed us in one of his threads that he wouldnt be posting or very limited posting from this week on.

He is back to work, as the school holidays are over and he returns to teaching.

[BIGBOSSMAN]

Yikes - a school teacher (watch what you say around your children, don't talk about the West...) :rolleyes:

[Mr Merde]

Yikes - a school teacher (watch what you say around your children, don't talk about the West...) :rolleyes:

Not really a school teacher.

He is a language teacher.

He is very proficient in the Mandrin dialect of Chinese, as well as what is considered semi literate in reading and writing the chatracters.

It was mentioned in one of the threads that he assists Chinese immigrants with their usage and understanding of the English language.

I've heard him speaking and the Chinese are always very supprised how well he does in their language.

Ask GIJoe.


Merde

[SPman]

........
The system we have stinks but it beats most of the alternatives.

No no no - many would have us believe Helen & co are the most corrupt politicians in the world!...:whistle:


I think too many people confuse corruption with arrogance. They are arrogant, yes, but not yet corrupt! In the corruption stakes, the current NZ government is very minor league! They deserve being booted out for that arrogance, but I reckon replacing it with National would lead to your actual corruption a damn sight quicker. Its a shame most people still don't understand MMP and tactical voting!
You're right in that the system we have beats most alternatives, but the system itself, doesn't stink, more, peoples inability to make best use of it.

[Mr Merde]

No no no - many would have us believe Helen & co are the most corrupt politicians in the world!...:whistle:


I think too many people confuse corruption with arrogance. They are arrogant, yes, but not yet corrupt! In the corruption stakes, the current NZ government is very minor league! They deserve being booted out for that arrogance, but I reckon replacing it with National would lead to your actual corruption a damn sight quicker. Its a shame most people still don't understand MMP and tactical voting!
You're right in that the system we have beats most alternatives, but the system itself, doesn't stink, more, peoples inability to make best use of it.

Politicos being prosecuted by the police for corruption, politicos being sentenced to jail time for stealing from a childs charity, attempting to justify the use of taxpayers money by backdating legislation, ignoring traffic laws with the excuseI was working,.

Sounds corrupt to me, just the tip of the iceberg. What else havent we found out about.

[BIGBOSSMAN]

Not really a school teacher.

He is a language teacher.
He is very proficient in the Mandrin dialect of Chinese, as well as what is considered semi literate in reading and writing the chatracters.

It was mentioned in one of the threads that he assists Chinese immigrants with their usage and understanding of the English language.

I've heard him speaking and the Chinese are always very supprised how well he does in their language.
Ask GIJoe.

Merde


Fair enough. He certainly sounds like quite an academic, although far removed from my own political ideal :)

[idleidolidyll]

Politicos being prosecuted by the police for corruption, politicos being sentenced to jail time for stealing from a childs charity, attempting to justify the use of taxpayers money by backdating legislation, ignoring traffic laws with the excuseI was working,.

Sounds corrupt to me, just the tip of the iceberg. What else havent we found out about.

2 in 250 years? what's the problem...............well that's what the cops are saying about their own anyway...........

[idleidolidyll]

Yikes - a school teacher (watch what you say around your children, don't talk about the West...) :rolleyes:

actually, I have only been teaching English for a few months. I teach Mandarin speaking immigrants and also included in my lessons is a huge dose of Kiwi culture and not an insignificant amount of political discourse.

What I'm sure many will find hard to swallow given their rantings about me here, is that I was a very successful capital equipment salesman (loaders, rollers, excavators, cherry pickers, pavers etc), an international sales manager, a motorbike salesman and service manager and I've run my own business for years importing eco products to NZ since we were not making them ourselves.
Adding to that the fact that I've always been a working photographer and still shoot people and events for a number of clients and that I studied for my recent degree while working as a photographer and importer at the same time, and you might now have stopped wondering why I laugh at people who jump to conclusions and label socialists as lazy, unable to take responsible for themselves, bludgers etc etc.

You guys are a joke.

[idleidolidyll]

Importantly though, even as I post my political opinions here, I am a fan of Robert Taylors work as well as those others in our sport who provide us with their wonderful skills and who support up and coming racers in our sport.

Robert is an artist and a credit to motorcycling but that doesn't mean I have to subscribe to his political viewpoint. He's also a grown up (unlike some here) and it's clear he also understands that I too am welcome to my political opinions and should we meet, there would be no animosity I'm sure.

I too have done my part in the sport too both as a competitor and a national organiser/official.

Those who know me laugh with me at the nonsense posted in anger at me. It's water off a duck's back as far as I'm concerned, just a chance to air opinions and laugh at some of the amazing naivety shown on occasion.

[idleidolidyll]

Unlike Labour who seem content to let NZ business after NZ business close their doors and drift off-shore as they are at present....?

indeed that is a concern.

National however would accelerate that and sell us out to whoever greases their palms.

I vote for neither

[Robert Taylor]

actually, I have only been teaching English for a few months. I teach Mandarin speaking immigrants and also included in my lessons is a huge dose of Kiwi culture and not an insignificant amount of political discourse.

What I'm sure many will find hard to swallow given their rantings about me here, is that I was a very successful capital equipment salesman (loaders, rollers, excavators, cherry pickers, pavers etc), an international sales manager, a motorbike salesman and service manager and I've run my own business for years importing eco products to NZ since we were not making them ourselves.
Adding to that the fact that I've always been a working photographer and still shoot people and events for a number of clients and that I studied for my recent degree while working as a photographer and importer at the same time, and you might now have stopped wondering why I laugh at people who jump to conclusions and label socialists as lazy, unable to take responsible for themselves, bludgers etc etc.

You guys are a joke.

You know, the most infuriating thing about socialists is that they think they are so damn right. The slow and incessant indoctrination process over the decades has clearly been successful.

How about a subjective poll about who is the ''lesser of all the evils'' to form a Government if a general election was held tommorrow...

[idleidolidyll]

You know, the most infuriating thing about socialists is that they think they are so damn right. The slow and incessant indoctrination process over the decades has clearly been successful.

How about a subjective poll about who is the ''lesser of all the evils'' to form a Government if a general election was held tommorrow...

impossible; they're all evil

perhaps if we could cut and paste people in and out of the various parties we might be able to form a viable government. The problem however is this: anyone who WANTS to be in government is either far too idealistic or far to greedy and power mad.

[BIGBOSSMAN]

actually, I have only been teaching English for a few months. I teach Mandarin speaking immigrants and also included in my lessons is a huge dose of Kiwi culture and not an insignificant amount of political discourse.

What I'm sure many will find hard to swallow given their rantings about me here, is that I was a very successful capital equipment salesman (loaders, rollers, excavators, cherry pickers, pavers etc), an international sales manager, a motorbike salesman and service manager and I've run my own business for years importing eco products to NZ since we were not making them ourselves.
Adding to that the fact that I've always been a working photographer and still shoot people and events for a number of clients and that I studied for my recent degree while working as a photographer and importer at the same time, and you might now have stopped wondering why I laugh at people who jump to conclusions and label socialists as lazy, unable to take responsible for themselves, bludgers etc etc.

You guys are a joke.

Nice one. North Korea beckons for you LenIIIn, there are plenty of brainwashed Communistas who would lap up your Cyclopsian tirades against the free market, personal responsibility etc etc.
You could quickly become Kim Jong-Iil's favourite advisor! (King of Scotland springs to mind...) :2thumbsup

[idleidolidyll]

Nice one. North Korea beckons for you LenIIIn, there are plenty of brainwashed Communistas who would lap up your Cyclopsian tirades against the free market, personal responsibility etc etc.
You could quickly become Kim Jong-Iil's favourite advisor! (King of Scotland springs to mind...) :2thumbsup

when did i rail against personal responsibilty>

answer: I didn't and it's just another lazy invention and a complete fallacy.

BTW: I'm a socialist not a communist. Most fascists and extreme right wing conservatives are too dumb to understand the difference: do you?

[davereid]

Unlike Labour who seem content to let NZ business after NZ business close their doors and drift off-shore as they are at present....?


indeed that is a concern.
National however would accelerate that and sell us out to whoever greases their palms. I vote for neither

Of course Labour and National are the same - "Vista and Vista Home" if you like, neither very good.

But sell us out ?

Nope. Economies don't work like that. Economies are like gravity - they don't respect you, or your politics or the other fellas either.

The same set of rules applies to all players, and no forward passes go un-noticed.

Why are these companies going overseas ?
Because they can make the product cheaper overseas. Labour costs are lower. Compliance costs, Kyoto all lower. So if you make low value items, with a high labour content you will lose.

Solutions ? You can protect your economy with taxes. But it is a forward pass and you will be punished. Those you trade with will repay you tit-for-tat. And you will pay $50 for a $10 shirt.

Or you can "pick winners". Get a government department to gamble your future on their pick of "good" industries.

Another idea is to form an army and go and take other peoples resources. (Thats the favorite decision of capitalist economies, but has also been a great choice for the left as well.)

What will really work ?

Stop dreaming that you are brighter, harder working or more deserving than the other fellow.

But, you might have more natural resources. You might have a milder climate, plentiful rainfall and the remnants of a good infrastructure.

You might speak english as a first language, and appreciate that prosperity comes from investment.

Investment in education, tools, equipment, and people.

[Pussy]

Well, IDLELEFTYLADOLAYOLAYOLAY, as a taxpayer, I have unwillingly been subsidising socialism since 1975. You are entitled to your opinions, no matter how misinformed they are, and I have no problem with that. I wonder if you really grasp where the money comes from for your idealistic socialist solutions, though?
I have no problem with giving a hand up, but I do abhore hand outs, which socialist systems encourage. Wake up and smell the roses....there are those that have made several generations careers out of it

[terbang]

And as a motorcyclist I can also vouch for idleidolidyll's ability to school as well.

[98tls]

Importantly though, even as I post my political opinions here, I am a fan of Robert Taylors work as well as those others in our sport who provide us with their wonderful skills and who support up and coming racers in our sport.

Robert is an artist and a credit to motorcycling but that doesn't mean I have to subscribe to his political viewpoint. He's also a grown up (unlike some here) and it's clear he also understands that I too am welcome to my political opinions and should we meet, there would be no animosity I'm sure.

I too have done my part in the sport too both as a competitor and a national organiser/official.

Those who know me laugh with me at the nonsense posted in anger at me. It's water off a duck's back as far as I'm concerned, just a chance to air opinions and laugh at some of the amazing naivety shown on occasion. I finally gave in to the pms saying "you gotta see this shit" so came back for a look,i thought at least it would be interesting but all i get is some twat puffing his chest out,i guess as its the internet the freedom of speech rule applies but your so full of yourself i feel sad for you,am betting your so fucked you actually spout this shit in person.I sincerely hope none of your neighbours have dogs that bark all night.

[BIGBOSSMAN]

when did i rail against personal responsibilty>

answer: I didn't and it's just another lazy invention and a complete fallacy.

BTW: I'm a socialist not a communist. Most fascists and extreme right wing conservatives are too dumb to understand the difference: do you?

Well I'm not an extreme right wing conservative, and definitely not a fascist either. One thing I don't do as well, is to constantly yell my one-eyed political dogma from the pulpit of a biker website.
I consider all individuals have a right to their political viewpoint, and agree to disagree as a matter of principle.
So that's exactly what I'm doing! :mellow:

[scumdog]

You guys are a joke.

Well this joke is quite happily accepting the money your taxes (and tickets should you get any) provide, than y'all.

[98tls]

when did i rail against personal responsibilty>

answer: I didn't and it's just another lazy invention and a complete fallacy.

BTW: I'm a socialist not a communist. Most fascists and extreme right wing conservatives are too dumb to understand the difference: do you? The thing that impresses me is that you tell it as it is on the interweb...knob:laugh:

[idleidolidyll]

I finally gave in to the pms saying "you gotta see this shit" so came back for a look,i thought at least it would be interesting but all i get is some twat puffing his chest out,i guess as its the internet the freedom of speech rule applies but your so full of yourself i feel sad for you,am betting your so fucked you actually spout this shit in person.I sincerely hope none of your neighbours have dogs that bark all night.

another no brainer.

no coherent argument to make so merely a personal attack

hang on, i feel another massive yawn coming on.............

[idleidolidyll]

Well I'm not an extreme right wing conservative, and definitely not a fascist either. One thing I don't do as well, is to constantly yell my one-eyed political dogma from the pulpit of a biker website.
I consider all individuals have a right to their political viewpoint, and agree to disagree as a matter of principle.
So that's exactly what I'm doing! :mellow:

that's funny, hilarious actually

yep, you're welcome to disagree and that you do at least try to offer a counter argument gives you a modicum of credit but the comment about "one eyed dogma" actually made me laugh out loud.

Everyone believes their personal political viewpoint is right and having the balls to offer it on a forum in a small community like NZ where you are easily identified gets what? The usual Kiwi nonsense attacking the tall poppy.

That's a lot like Amerika where people did the same thing and ended up with a political leader as dumb or dumber than themselves.

If nobody speaks nothing changes. Tuff for you if you keep your mouth shut.

[idleidolidyll]

One thing I don't do as well, is to constantly yell my one-eyed political dogma from the pulpit of a biker website.



That's so lame in so many ways: here's another

This is a website for people who ride bikes but it also has a wide range of forums and threads dedicated to things that have nothing to do with bikes. People like to offer their views and opinions to people they know or feel some kind of connection to.
This particular thread is clearly labeled as a political one. If you're so adamant that political discourse is not worthy here, why the fuck are you bothering to read it? You have a choice, if you're not interested, don't bother. If you are interested but don't know how to make a coherent argument to support your views; too fucking bad and don't whine to me about it, I just don't give a damn.

As for your fascist suggestion by inference that politics should not be discussed on a bike website; why don't you tell all the other 'off topic' posters waffling about cars, girls, guns and other stuff to fuck off too?

You won't? Too bad and here's another laugh on your behalf: rotflmfao!

[idleidolidyll]

Well this joke is quite happily accepting the money your taxes (and tickets should you get any) provide, than y'all.

and that makes you a parasite; well done

[idleidolidyll]

Maybe then they should pull out of Iraq, seal the place off and let them all kill each other.

Ahh, another piece of right wing propaganda exploded by facts.
Gordon Brown, PM of the UK, has just announced that Britain will halve the number of troops in Iraq by next year to 2500.

The reason? After they pulled out of Basra, violence dropped by nearly 90%.

So, as has been constantly repeated; the violence is a consequence of the illegal invasion of Iraq not a reason to continue that invasion and occupation.

It was always about control of oil and suckers who thought otherwise have been inventing new excuses every time the last one was destroyed: what will be the next one?

[idleidolidyll]

The thing that impresses me is that you tell it as it is on the interweb...knob:laugh:

the thing that impresses me, is how quickly rednecks and fascists get back up again after having their arses booted from here to breakfast and after their pitiful arguments are destroyed so utterly and easily.

I guess having small brains helps a lot.

that's be a whole bucket of knobs then?

[Robert Taylor]

Ahh, another piece of right wing propaganda exploded by facts.
Gordon Brown, PM of the UK, has just announced that Britain will halve the number of troops in Iraq by next year to 2500.

The reason? After they pulled out of Basra, violence dropped by nearly 90%.

So, as has been constantly repeated; the violence is a consequence of the illegal invasion of Iraq not a reason to continue that invasion and occupation.

It was always about control of oil and suckers who thought otherwise have been inventing new excuses every time the last one was destroyed: what will be the next one?

I ( politely ) disagree with part of this. This is driven more so by a desire to distance himself from Tony Blairs legacy and to try and win re-election for his Government.

[idleidolidyll]

I ( politely ) disagree with part of this. This is driven more so by a desire to distance himself from Tony Blairs legacy and to try and win re-election for his Government.

Perhaps you disagree but the fact remains: when the Brits pulled most of their troops out of Basra, violence dropped drastically.

Gordon Brown STATED that this was the motivation. Yes, politicians DO lie but the facts bear out the statement

[The Stranger]

Everyone believes their personal political viewpoint is right and having the balls to offer it on a forum in a small community like NZ where you are easily identified gets what? The usual Kiwi nonsense attacking the tall poppy.



I like to believe I have an open mind and am open to your political positions, I do not however simply accept that position without question.
As such I really would appreciate your response to the issues I raised in this post (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1236892&postcount=237).

[Robert Taylor]

and that makes you a parasite; well done

Well.................approximately 750 Kiwis per week are ''voting with their feet'' and resettling to Australia alone, Dingolands biggest immigrant group. The Poms are in second place, and they also have a Govt that is bonkers.

Immigrants that are replacing this loss are largely less well educated and from a background / social group that is far more likely to vote for that woman who looks way different to her election billboards smiling mug shots. This is no less than calculatingly deliberate.

And a bureaucracy that is out of control, 50,000 or so MORE civil servants ( by definition paid beneficiaries ) since that dark day in November 1999 when the electorate lost its marbles. What for? More wastage of taxpayers money that could be better utilised left in the pockets of those earning it. Perhaps we would have more people doing real and productive jobs instead of living off the public purse.

You know, this country could be the best in the world but the combined actions of many Goverments since 1972 or so have incessantly turned us into a slum with scenery.

In reference to a previous post defining a ''Conservative'' as someone who doesnt want change, lets go a step further.....in many ways turning the clock back would be a great thing.

[idleidolidyll]

So I have been trying to work this one out idle and am fucked if I can see the problem.

Way I see it is this.
Macs give us, the consumer, choice, prior to this we had fish & chips.

The bring competition. I must admit, I have not done any study on this, but anecdotally I doubt it is much dearer to eat out these days than to shop, purchase, store, prepare and cook your own food and do the dishes etc after. Either way I think it would be hard to dispute that competition does tend to benefit the consumer on a cost basis. Accepted there are other measures, however, given the choices we now have you can soon vote with your feet.

Macs assembles it's product apparently from materials sourced locally, so a lot of local business profit from supplying milk, meat, breads, packaging, rubbish collection etc etc. Things like achitectural, engineering and IT and construction are of course sourced locally also.

In addition to the indirect employment means mentioned above, Macs supply a lot of jobs directly. Now many of these are low paid and perhaps minimum wage jobs. That said, someone somewhere has to earn the minimum wage and as I see it one likely alternative to minimum is no job. No job probably means on the dole. So Macs potentially help the country enormously by taking a percentage of people that would otherwise cost us a lot (of dole) and turn them into contributors (tax payers).

So the profits go overseas. Well not all of it. The suppliers presumably profit, the salary and wage earners profit, I am sure the franchisee profits and presumably they all pay some taxes that otherwise would not have been collected. But even with a portion of their turnover going overseas how is this inherently bad.

How also does it differ say from purchasing a motorcycle, which presumably is acceptable as you would appear to have a few.
A motorcycle is made from materials sourced from overseas, assembled with foregin labour, in plants constructed in another land. We collect little tax from the whole procees (ignoring GST as this is also charged on Macs).

Way I see it is if Macs is bad, motorcycle is WAY bad.
Where have I got my wires crossed please?

fair ask, i missed this one.
give me a little time to offer a considered reply

[Robert Taylor]

You know, despite whether you are a true blue tory or from the dark side I think everyone has the same basic intent, its how you see you should get there. As a tory I dont have a problem with social equality and everyone getting a fair go. But people should do more to help themselves instead of expecting hand outs. Equality of opportunity should be synonomous with equality of effort.

I look at what is going on and I just shake my head, including those at the very top milking the system.

[idleidolidyll]

So I have been trying to work this one out idle and am fucked if I can see the problem.

<o>Stranger in white, idleidolidyll in KTM orange:
</o>
<o></o>Way I see it is this.
Macs give us, the consumer, choice, prior to this we had fish & chips.
<o></o>
Not at all: Prior to Macs, we had big juicy burgers and a wide choice from lots of locally owned and run outlets with the profits staying in NZ. I clearly remember the introduction of McD. It was with great fanfare but pretty soon after the initial opening, great burgers started disappearing and we were left with speed and hype as opposed to quality.

The bring competition. I must admit, I have not done any study on this, but anecdotally I doubt it is much dearer to eat out these days than to shop, purchase, store, prepare and cook your own food and do the dishes etc after. Either way I think it would be hard to dispute that competition does tend to benefit the consumer on a cost basis. Accepted there are other measures, however, given the choices we now have you can soon vote with your feet.
<o></o>
Cost is one measure but to focus only on cost is to miss much of the point. At what cost does the cheap price come? In NZ it meant the closing of awesome little burger bars serving great food for good prices in favour of a product that was cheap but about half the mass. (burgeres before McD’s were much bigger) Add to that the loss of NZ$ to offshore companies and the common practice of McD’s to offer minimum wage (bare minimum using kids as staff) and to actively prevent unionism and the eye they keep on staff abuse etc and the picture becomes a bit clearer.

Macs assembles it's product apparently from materials sourced locally, so a lot of local business profit from supplying milk, meat, breads, packaging, rubbish collection etc etc. Things like achitectural, engineering and IT and construction are of course sourced locally also.
<o></o>
Yep, that’s what they say they do. I won’t argue with that point except to say that they didn’t increase purchases from NZ businesses, they just monopolised them by forcing individually owned businesses out of the market.

In addition to the indirect employment means mentioned above, Macs supply a lot of jobs directly. Now many of these are low paid and perhaps minimum wage jobs. That said, someone somewhere has to earn the minimum wage and as I see it one likely alternative to minimum is no job. No job probably means on the dole. So Macs potentially help the country enormously by taking a percentage of people that would otherwise cost us a lot (of dole) and turn them into contributors (tax payers).
<o></o>
Actually MOST are low paid. There is a will by McD’s to use student labour and a lot of that is FOREIGN student labour. I once did some volunteer work for the <st1>Union</st1> that finally got into McD’s (Unite) and saw first hand how that works. Many of those students had very very dubious rights to work in NZ and were afraid to speak out for fear of loss of their job. This is first hand experience not hearsay. As a side note; as you can see from this statement, i do more than just talk about issues.<o></o>
Students of that age (still at high school) don’t generally draw the dole and neither do foreign students so much of the argument above is moot.

So the profits go overseas. Well not all of it. The suppliers presumably profit, the salary and wage earners profit, I am sure the franchisee profits and presumably they all pay some taxes that otherwise would not have been collected. But even with a portion of their turnover going overseas how is this inherently bad.
<o></o>
Yes, local suppliers do profit but they also profited BEFORE McD’s. There IS a nett loss both in tax income and money sent offshore. The ability of big companies to avoid tax or pay minimal tax is well known as is the propensity for governments in NZ to give them tax breaks based on often dubious suggestions that they would add something to NZ.

How also does it differ say from purchasing a motorcycle, which presumably is acceptable as you would appear to have a few.
A motorcycle is made from materials sourced from overseas, assembled with foregin labour, in plants constructed in another land. We collect little tax from the whole procees (ignoring GST as this is also charged on Macs).
<o></o>
That’s a fair question. Sadly though, we don’t make bikes in NZ (That fact alone makes this line quite irrelevant.), but if we did, I’d likely be standing in line.<o></o>
<o></o>
Burgers are a different proposition: we had an existing industry largely run by Mom and Dad small businesses that just couldn’t compete with a megacorp prepared to offer a sub standard product ((yes, my opinion)) based on convincing kids to pester their parents, a dubious ‘convenience’ and their knowledge that they could drive down wages to compete easily with owner operators.<o></o>
I’d rather pay more and get a decent burger any day (and frequently do)

Way I see it is if Macs is bad, motorcycle is WAY bad.
Where have I got my wires crossed please?
<o></o>
I think the above addresses that question.<o></o>
<o></o>
My question is this: what nett benefit to NZ did the introduction of McD’s have? Net benefit not individual benefit. As per the above argument, I suggest the nett benefit has been a negative one.

Lastly, I appreciate the way you approached me and my opinions and I've tried to offer the same in return. Even though we disagree, I'd rather debate/discuss with you than those who might agree with me but offer bugger all but personal attack. I strive to always reply in kind.<o></o>

[avgas]

But I don't wanna. Surely the gummint will give me some if I'm unwill, er I mean unable to work.
Yep - sadly enough NZ is not a country of those that walk their own paths

[idleidolidyll]

You know, despite whether you are a true blue tory or from the dark side I think everyone has the same basic intent, its how you see you should get there. As a tory I dont have a problem with social equality and everyone getting a fair go. But people should do more to help themselves instead of expecting hand outs. Equality of opportunity should be synonomous with equality of effort.

I look at what is going on and I just shake my head, including those at the very top milking the system.

that's a great post and i can't fault it.

rather than take a cheap shot just at the lower end of the scale or just at employees and not at corporations, you have identified both as potential and actual abusers.

I too agree that sheer bludgery should be stopped and i think that a work for the dole scheme is a good idea.
a totally free handout for those who are fit and healthy but not prepared to work, is abuse of the system.

Likewise, white collar criminals and abusers deserve to be publicly humiliated and their crimes need to be punished more severely. Luxury in prisons and golf trips are a massive abuse of the system.

that said, GENUINE need should be recognised. Capitalism relies on a pool of people on very low wages or unemployed to offer their services at minimal cost to new enterprises and in that lies potential abuse and inhumanity.

[idleidolidyll]

of course the major groups opposed to work for the dole schemes are businesses

therin lies a conundrum...........

[idleidolidyll]

Well.................approximately 750 Kiwis per week are ''voting with their feet'' and resettling to Australia alone, Dingolands biggest immigrant group. The Poms are in second place, and they also have a Govt that is bonkers.

You've done nothing but identify a trend and assign your own cause without supporting information. Kiwis will leave NZ regardless of the government, they always have. I believe it's more a product of our relative isolation than the unspoken 'socialism' of the economy.
However, many who leave say that they are leaving because incomes are too low. That trend has occurred as we have transitioned AWAY from socialism and toward free markets and cosying up to big foreign nationals. It really pleases me to see a new 'Buy NZ' campaign.

Immigrants that are replacing this loss are largely less well educated and from a background / social group that is far more likely to vote for that woman who looks way different to her election billboards smiling mug shots. This is no less than calculatingly deliberate.

immigration is always an issue. going back to the beginning, white immigrants from the UK started the biggest fuck up of all; completely changing the cultural and social basis of all previous citizens.
For a product of that original fuck up to complain about immigrants..........fill in your own blanks here.

Your comment there smacks of 'isms'

And a bureaucracy that is out of control, 50,000 or so MORE civil servants ( by definition paid beneficiaries ) since that dark day in November 1999 when the electorate lost its marbles. What for? More wastage of taxpayers money that could be better utilised left in the pockets of those earning it. Perhaps we would have more people doing real and productive jobs instead of living off the public purse.

Sure, government is too big in NZ but that is often used as an excuse to cut services by right wingers. Those services would then be replaced by more expensive private services usually provided by foreign companies again seelling out our economy and turning us into minimum wage slaves.
If National had it's way, we'd have a costly private health insurance scheme that many could not afford and we'd then either have a large percentage of people not able to access adequate health services or drastically increased costs but with decreasing incomes.

You know, this country could be the best in the world but the combined actions of many Goverments since 1972 or so have incessantly turned us into a slum with scenery.

It WAS one of the best in the world and it has been the Milton Freidman type changes in particular that have fucked it up and driven us down many of the quality of life and income charts.
In the past Kiwi families could have a great life on a single wage and STILL be able to buy their own home.

In reference to a previous post defining a ''Conservative'' as someone who doesnt want change, lets go a step further.....in many ways turning the clock back would be a great thing.

Good idea, lets give the country back to Maori and let them sort out all the fuckups that we Euros imposed on them.

[Ocean1]

Equality of opportunity should be synonomous with equality of effort.

I look at what is going on and I just shake my head, including those at the very top milking the system.

Nice.

Only the foundation of NZ’s particular brave new brand of socialism is equity of OUTCOMES, not equity of opportunity. Help for those who start with a genuine and significant disadvantage is one thing, attempting to engineer a uniformity of income by supplementing those who repeatedly make poor choices is another. The former is simply human, the latter is ethically incorrect, and fiscally unsustainable.

The US gave up positive discrimination years ago, it quickly became apparent that the premise upon which the policy was built was fundamentally flawed, no matter which group was so favoured. Years later and we see NZ using similar justification to promote those groups under-represented in high earning professions. Resetting the academic bar to advance social and cultural uniformity within the medical field is one result of such ideologies.

No amount of social engineering will ever make all people equal. If you choose to leave school at 16 or fail to hold a job that doesn’t make you worth less as a person. It does make you worth less to the economy though, why should the very people who made decisions aimed at optimising their value to the economy pay for yours.

The wringing of hands and righteous indignation from those who claim the socially oppressed can’t make ends meet without my money make me ill. The poorest of us has easy access to a lifestyle better than most of our parents had, one simply beyond any of our our grandparents reach. Anyone suggesting otherwise is making comparisons with those who work hard to maintain a good modern lifestyle, one they probably earned.

[Ocean1]

of course the major groups opposed to work for the dole schemes are businesses

therin lies a conundrum...........

Why are they opposed to it?

[idleidolidyll]

Why are they opposed to it?

they complain that it takes away their right to make a profit from the kinds of businesses that work for dole schemes rely on

[Robert Taylor]

Good idea, lets give the country back to Maori and let them sort out all the fuckups that we Euros imposed on them.

But there are no full blooded maoris left, we should collectively consider ourselves as New Zealanders and get on with it.

Having said that I am largely proud of my British ancestry and find it only logical that there is a Union Jack in the corner of our flag.

Have I just pulled another pin from another hand grenade?!!!

[scumdog]

That’s a fair question. Sadly though, we don’t make bikes in NZ (That fact alone makes this line quite irrelevant.), but if we did, I’d likely be standing in line.<o></o>
<o></o>
Burgers are a different proposition: we had an existing industry largely run by Mom and Dad small businesses that just couldn’t compete with a megacorp prepared to offer a sub standard product ((yes, my opinion)) based on convincing kids to pester their parents, a dubious ‘convenience’ and their knowledge that they could drive down wages to compete easily with owner operators.<o></o>
I’d rather pay more and get a decent burger any day (and frequently do)

Way I see it is if Macs is bad, motorcycle is WAY bad.
Where have I got my wires crossed please?
<o></o>
I think the above addresses that question.<o></o>
<o></o>
My question is this: what nett benefit to NZ did the introduction of McD’s have? Net benefit not individual benefit. As per the above argument, I suggest the nett benefit has been a negative one.



But would the product/labour now not used by the old traditional burger supplier not just be transferred over to Maccas - who hype it up and sell more product/employ more staff?
They obviously saw a niche there and took advantage of it - anybody else could have done the same.
And those 'low-paid young workers' - take Maccas out of the equation and what would they be doing? - not working in better conditions and getting larger pays I'd vouch.

BTW: Can't stand Maccas, it's 'cardboard' food, tasteless and unappealing to me and I buy it maybe once a year tops. (Just in case you thought I moonlighted for them)

[idleidolidyll]

But there are no full blooded maoris left, we should collectively consider ourselves as New Zealanders and get on with it.

Having said that I am largely proud of my British ancestry and find it only logical that there is a Union Jack in the corner of our flag.

Have I just pulled another pin from another hand grenade?!!!

I see, so your conservatism is just strong enough for you to want to go back far enough for YOUR opinions and viewpoints to be supported but not far enough for those of others to be upheld.
That's the argument the Zionists use so they don't have to admit the abuse they uneashed upon Palestinians when they were forced out of their homes and off their lands.

Yes, let's all think of ourselves as New Zealanders and go forward NOT backward. However, within that assignation, you will still think yourself 'proud' to be of Brit heritage............................there's a kinda hypocrisy in there Robert.

[idleidolidyll]

But would the product/labour now not used by the old traditional burger supplier not just be transferred over to Maccas - who hype it up and sell more product/employ more staff?
They obviously saw a niche there and took advantage of it - anybody else could have done the same.
And those 'low-paid young workers' - take Maccas out of the equation and what would they be doing? - not working in better conditions and getting larger pays I'd vouch.

BTW: Can't stand Maccas, it's 'cardboard' food, tasteless and unappealing to me and I buy it maybe once a year tops. (Just in case you thought I moonlighted for them)

I don't think they saw a 'niche', I reckon they saw an opportunity to build a monopoly.
I'm not so sure more people are employed by MCD's than would have been if old style burgers bars had continued without their coming; McD's cut prices by cutting costs and wages are a major cost.

"And those 'low-paid young workers' - take Maccas out of the equation and what would they be doing? - not working in better conditions and getting larger pays I'd vouch.":

that's mere speculation, who says they wouldn't be employed by their mums and dads in burger bars or other cottage industries?

Yes, I agree, McD's is not a quality product

[scumdog]

The wringing of hands and righteous indignation from those who claim the socially oppressed can’t make ends meet without my money make me ill. The poorest of us has easy access to a lifestyle better than most of our parents had, one simply beyond any of our our grandparents reach. Anyone suggesting otherwise is making comparisons with those who work hard to maintain a good modern lifestyle, one they probably earned.

Uncanny, at work last night we were discussing just that!

As one guy said: "Could our parents if unemployed ( refused to get a job?) and then shot off down to WINZ to get a chit for a new washing machine?"
Not every household had a car back then, TV was for those well-off, getting a wristwatch even was something special yadda yadda yadda - all the 'treats' are now what the non-working 'expect' as a gimme.

And another topic was the Govt has made it soooo easy to get credit/buy on h.p etc - yet they are the ones moaning about overseas debt and lack of savings ethics by the population - go figure??

[idleidolidyll]

apples with apples not oranges

nowdays a home needs both parents to work to have a decent quality of life and usually having more than 1 or 2 kids is out of the question due to cost.

sure, we can buy better toys than our parents but is our quality of life actually any better or is it actually worse?

what's the point of it all if you have bugger all free time?

[davereid]

Good idea, lets give the country back to Maori and let them sort out all the fuckups that we Euros imposed on them.

What a load of rubbish. Before the arrival of the european maori lived a far-from perfect existance.

On the bright side it was a pretty egalitarian existance ! They were almost all cold in winter, threatened with slavery by opposing tribes, and dead by their mid forties.

The only thing that has fucked up the maoris is the welfare state. Thats why when they go to Aussie, and don't qualify for assistance they get cracking and achieve.

[Robert Taylor]

I see, so your conservatism is just strong enough for you to want to go back far enough for YOUR opinions and viewpoints to be supported but not far enough for those of others to be upheld.
That's the argument the Zionists use so they don't have to admit the abuse they uneashed upon Palestinians when they were forced out of their homes and off their lands.

Yes, let's all think of ourselves as New Zealanders and go forward NOT backward. However, within that assignation, you will still think yourself 'proud' to be of Brit heritage............................there's a kinda hypocrisy in there Robert.

British history certainly isnt clean but then whose is? Do I go to Gordon Brown because I bear the emotional scars of my grandfather having suffered appalling injuries at the Somme? Or do we go further back to 1066?

[Ocean1]

they complain that it takes away their right to make a profit from the kinds of businesses that work for dole schemes rely on

Sounds like a typically warped quote.

If you quote this one get it right: "Even heavilly subsidised they cost more to employ than they earn."

[Grahameeboy]

Well.................approximately 750 Kiwis per week are ''voting with their feet'' and resettling to Australia alone, Dingolands biggest immigrant group. The Poms are in second place, and they also have a Govt that is bonkers.

Immigrants that are replacing this loss are largely less well educated and from a background / social group that is far more likely to vote for that woman who looks way different to her election billboards smiling mug shots. This is no less than calculatingly deliberate.

And a bureaucracy that is out of control, 50,000 or so MORE civil servants ( by definition paid beneficiaries ) since that dark day in November 1999 when the electorate lost its marbles. What for? More wastage of taxpayers money that could be better utilised left in the pockets of those earning it. Perhaps we would have more people doing real and productive jobs instead of living off the public purse.

You know, this country could be the best in the world but the combined actions of many Goverments since 1972 or so have incessantly turned us into a slum with scenery.

In reference to a previous post defining a ''Conservative'' as someone who doesnt want change, lets go a step further.....in many ways turning the clock back would be a great thing.

Geeze, this is why I avoid politics.....I have travelled a fair bit and reckon that NZ is probably the best 'Westernised' country in the world to live and that is all that matters to me.

I think one can allow oneself (I use 'one' to avoid descrimination) to get too embroiled in the what fors and want fors of politics and that this is just what the Politicians want.........'life' is what it is all about and sometimes we....whoops, sorry..one can allow this to get lost in politics

[davereid]

Not at all: Prior to Macs, we had big juicy burgers and a wide choice from lots of locally owned and run outlets with the profits staying in NZ.

If it were true.. then Maccas would never have prospered. Even though you don't like Maccas, clearly much of the rest of the country vote with their wallets and do.

Its more than just the food, its a playground for the kids, a seat and a cup of coffee.

At my local NZ style burger bar, you stand in a long slow queue, they fuck your order up reliably as day follows night, and at best the kids play on the street outside in the remnants of last nights urine.

So, while you can still find a kiwi burger bar - they arent as dead as you suggest, they still offer the same old service as before.

So guess what - most mums would rather take the kids to maccas.

[Ocean1]

Uncanny, at work last night we were discussing just that!

Hope you were using better diction though...

As one guy said: "Could our parents if unemployed ( refused to get a job?) and then shot off down to WINZ to get a chit for a new washing machine?"
Not every household had a car back then, TV was for those well-off, getting a wristwatch even was something special yadda yadda yadda - all the 'treats' are now what the non-working 'expect' as a gimme.

And another topic was the Govt has made it soooo easy to get credit/buy on h.p etc - yet they are the ones moaning about overseas debt and lack of savings ethics by the population - go figure??

Dude the Govt hasn't made it easy for the loan sharks, they just haven't done anything about them at all. I'm not sure there's any way you can stop people making such choices by legislating the supply side of that market... Not without a 12 guage anyway.

[scumdog]

apples with apples not oranges

nowdays a home needs both parents to work to have a decent quality of life and usually having more than 1 or 2 kids is out of the question due to cost.

sure, we can buy better toys than our parents but is our quality of life actually any better or is it actually worse?

what's the point of it all if you have bugger all free time?

Rubbish, both parent do NOT have to work to have a 'decent quality of life' - it is more to buy flasher toys.

They are sacrificing 'free time' for more baubles, not for essentials.

Of course it MAY be necessary in large built up areas where property prices and commuting are extortionate that both parents have to work - but thats' their choice to live there.

[Ocean1]

Geeze, this is why I avoid politics.....I have travelled a fair bit and reckon that NZ is probably the best 'Westernised' country in the world to live and that is all that matters to me.

I think one can allow oneself (I use 'one' to avoid descrimination) to get too embroiled in the what fors and want fors of politics and that this is just what the Politicians want.........'life' is what it is all about and sometimes we....whoops, sorry..one can allow this to get lost in politics

Politics is just a label dude. The fact is as soon as one decides to organise an interaction within any group there's a negotiation involved, and that's all politics is. The alternative is tribal warfare, an option reverted to whenever extremism becomes hard policy. Extremism becomes fact in a democracy only when the professional negotiators ignore the majority.

[Grahameeboy]

Politics is just a label dude. The fact is as soon as one decides to organise an interaction within any group there's a negotiation involved, and that's all politics is. The alternative is tribal warfare, an option reverted to whenever extremism becomes hard policy. Extremism becomes fact in a democracy only when the professional negotiators ignore the majority.

Sorry, English is my first language....

[idleidolidyll]

Rubbish, both parent do NOT have to work to have a 'decent quality of life' - it is more to buy flasher toys.

They are sacrificing 'free time' for more baubles, not for essentials.

Of course it MAY be necessary in large built up areas where property prices and commuting are extortionate that both parents have to work - but thats' their choice to live there.

you MIGHT be right but as you don't provide any references or support, I can only suppose it's conjecture on your part.

with that in mind, i'm looking to find the current wage for a sergeant in the NZ army.
my father and mother bought up 6 children on his income with just a little sewing piece work by my mother: i wonder if that's possible today?

[davereid]

Rubbish, both parent do NOT have to work to have a 'decent quality of life' - it is more to buy flasher toys.

And its also marginal tax rates of 39%, + 12.5% GST.
Its annual rates bills of $2000

Its just that we only get to keep about half of what we earn. So yep, two of us have to work to be in the same place.

Luckily, for some of us, work is not a chore or a punishment.

Its the way we improve our lives, and the lives of those we care for.

(edit - am I agreeing with scumdog again ? ... rubbing head looking for bumps..)

[idleidolidyll]

If it were true.. then Maccas would never have prospered.

sadly untrue: the power of marketing often overcomes good sense

[idleidolidyll]

At my local NZ style burger bar, you stand in a long slow queue, they fuck your order up reliably as day follows night, and at best the kids play on the street outside in the remnants of last nights urine.

we are talking about comparisons between McD's when they arrived and burger bars back then not with what the market has been driven to AFTER the introduction of a virtual monopoly.

[scumdog]

we are talking about comparisons between McD's when they arrived and burger bars back then not with what the market has been driven to AFTER the introduction of a virtual monopoly.


Hey it was a free market out there - Maccas just had it sussed what people wanted/hype they wanted to sell people.
Law of the jungle/business 101.

[idleidolidyll]

scumdog: the NZ Army website is crap; it keeps timing out and doesn't seem to offer wages anyway.

any idea how much a sargeant earns (artillery or grunt, not a tradesman: comparing apples with apples)?

lets say it's $60k. add say $10k income from the missus working occasionally part time

Is that enough to bring up 6 children today? what kind of quality of life would they have?

[idleidolidyll]

Hey it was a free market out there - Maccas just had it sussed what people wanted/hype they wanted to sell people.
Law of the jungle/business 101.

yep, they saw an opportunity to carve a nice monopoly through hype and marketing as opposed to quality

that's what i've been saying

are we actually agreeing with each other? lookout chicken little! the sky is falling!

[idleidolidyll]

Sounds like a typically warped quote.

If you quote this one get it right: "Even heavilly subsidised they cost more to employ than they earn."

you might be right, i can't lay my hands on dtat immediately and i'm off to work shortly

however, i DO recall businesses complaining about work for dole schemes.

even if they didn't make money, so what? the idea is to keep people working and not sitting on their arses drawing the dole isn't it? it'd probably STILL be cheaper.

one 'ondustry' that springs to mind for that kind of work is local government; councils.

surely a lot of their work could be done with work for dole labour.........

[idleidolidyll]

What a load of rubbish. Before the arrival of the european maori lived a far-from perfect existance.

On the bright side it was a pretty egalitarian existance ! They were almost all cold in winter, threatened with slavery by opposing tribes, and dead by their mid forties.

The only thing that has fucked up the maoris is the welfare state. Thats why when they go to Aussie, and don't qualify for assistance they get cracking and achieve.

Hey, don't complain to me, it was Robert who wanted to go back just far enough for his views to be supported; I suggested we go forward instead............

[scumdog]

scumdog: the NZ Army website is crap; it keeps timing out and doesn't seem to offer wages anyway.

any idea how much a sargeant earns (artillery or grunt, not a tradesman: comparing apples with apples)?

lets say it's $60k. add say $10k income from the missus working occasionally part time

Is that enough to bring up 6 children today? what kind of quality of life would they have?
Six kids and living in Auckland might be pushing it

But down here they would be quite comfortable.

I don't mean "Let's go to Queenstown sking for the weekend with the family" comfortable but a warm tidy house, enough good food, a reliable Honda Oddyssy (sp?) type vehicle, can pay the bils and a little discretionary money too.

There's not too many down here with six kids i grant you so I cannot think of one that fits your above catagory 100%.

[idleidolidyll]

British history certainly isnt clean but then whose is? Do I go to Gordon Brown because I bear the emotional scars of my grandfather having suffered appalling injuries at the Somme? Or do we go further back to 1066?

come on now Robert; it was YOU who suggested going backwards not me.

i merely pointed out the hypocrisy of stopping at the point YOU think suits.

MY suggestion was to go forward

[Mr Merde]

... the current wage for a sergeant in the NZ army.
my father and mother bought up 6 children on his income with just a little sewing piece work by my mother: i wonder if that's possible today?

Your dad finished up as a Warrant Officer 1st class by the time the 6th kid came along.

As he was in 161 Bty he was also BSM.

Difference between a Sargent and a WO1 is quite substantial

[idleidolidyll]

Six kids and living in Auckland might be pushing it

But down here they would be quite comfortable.

I don't mean "Let's go to Queenstown sking for the weekend with the family" comfortable but a warm tidy house, enough good food, a reliable Honda Oddyssy (sp?) type vehicle, can pay the bils and a little discretionary money too.

There's not too many down here with six kids i grant you so I cannot think of one that fits your above catagory 100%.

We lived a lot in Auckland as well as Wellington and Waiouru. Since my parents DID have 6 kids, that's the only valid way I can compare.

We did go live with Grandpa in Makarewa for a year while Dad was in Vietnam but that was not the norm.

free time, quality of life, time with the kids etc.

we didn't have a lot of money but we had a great life and did a lot of stuff together when i was a kid

[idleidolidyll]

Your dad finished up as a Warrant Officer 1st class by the time the 6th kid came along.

As he was in 161 Bty he was also BSM.

Difference between a Sargent and a WO1 is quite substantial

OK, the average income spread over his earning life then

for the most poart of the 5 kids, he was just a sergeant/staff sergeant

the question stands: what would that be like today with 5 kids?

[scumdog]

BTW: It would generally be agreed that having six kids was a choice - as was the realisation that a Sgts income was sufficient to raise said kids would it not??

[idleidolidyll]

Your dad finished up as a Warrant Officer 1st class by the time the 6th kid came along.

As he was in 161 Bty he was also BSM.

Difference between a Sargent and a WO1 is quite substantial

are you sure that wasn't YOUR father?

[davereid]

Same here - you can still buy a nice home for 250k, and its an hour in the trains wine bar to work in Welly, or 35 mins on the scoot to Palmy.

And you can still buy a burger in any one of 20 old fashioned burger shops, as well as Maccas.

But.. your comparison betwwen maccas and the old burger shops is not really correct.

The current crop of stand-in-the-queue takeaway bars is not "the survivors" of an assault by Maccas.

The old kiwi milk-bar cum Tea shop is still there - its just morphed into a cafe, it prolly sells Heineken and you have to beg for a glass.

The ole fish and chippie has taken up the slack - thats actually the market working, as it should.

[idleidolidyll]

BTW: It would generally be agreed that having six kids was a choice - as was the realisation that a Sgts income was sufficient to raise said kids would it not??

sure it was a choice (well if you exclude what the kaffalik church kept telling ma)

so what? we still have to compare apples with apples not pears

[Ocean1]

you might be right, i can't lay my hands on dtat immediately and i'm off to work shortly

however, i DO recall businesses complaining about work for dole schemes.

even if they didn't make money, so what? the idea is to keep people working and not sitting on their arses drawing the dole isn't it? it'd probably STILL be cheaper.

one 'ondustry' that springs to mind for that kind of work is local government; councils.

surely a lot of their work could be done with work for dole labour.........

Yeah, right. Last summer I helped the local council gardening contractor "find" $20K worth of equipment "misplaced" such employees, (the ones his contract said he had to hire). I eventually found his brush cutters and a chainsaw in the river but he never did find the new mower.

He's no longer in that line of work...

[idleidolidyll]

bye dahlinks, gotta go get my bike and head off to work

will ya miss me? :girlfight:

rotflmfao! (rolling on the floor laughing my fucking arse off)

[idleidolidyll]

what the hell?

i had a bunch of notifications come up that i'd been quoted but all turned out to be 'invalid' by the time i opened them

oh well, back tonight

[idleidolidyll]

Yeah, right. Last summer I helped the local council gardening contractor "find" $20K worth of equipment "misplaced" such employees, (the ones his contract said he had to hire). I eventually found his brush cutters and a chainsaw in the river but he never did find the new mower.

He's no longer in that line of work...

and?

instead of making excuses, what would YOU suggest?

i've already said i support work for dole schemes

[terbang]

what's the point of it all if you have bugger all free time?

That grabs my attention being the lazy overpaid pilot bastard that I am.

I worked for Ansett NZ for 10 years and it was a great job with a high quality Airline. They wanted to cut costs and locked us out... The rest is history and I'm still locked out. Took some contracts overseas for a few years learnt a lot, had some fun and earned some reasonable coin. Returning back to NZ I joined the newly formed Qantas (New Zealand). Much the same job that I had with Ansett, driving a 100 seat jet around on the main trunk plus a bit of Tasman hopping. Cool life as it was..! Hell No it isn't, how surprised I was at how things had changed. It costs so damn much to live here and the income for a jet driver (outside of Air nz) is now considerably lower. We do 16 hour days now, much of it at the back of the clock and only get 8 random days off a month. Believe me, my colleagues and I spend a lot of time in a tired stupor trying to catch up on sleep. Yup Pilots do get paid well, even when we aren't on the pigs back. We paid a fortune to get there and we keep em (you) alive in an ever increasingly complex world. It is still spiraling and the catch 22 here with the airlines is safety and as we descend into third world costs, we also descend into third world safety standards (without admitting it). Look at the tired old 737's flying our routes at the moment. The airline industry in NZ in the past 8 years or so has been driven down by a devolved CAA, overseas corporations (QF) taking advantage of cheaper and easier labour laws and creative accountancy. But hey you guys now have cheaper tickets, great for the consumer eh..?
Anyway back to time off..I am now leaving the NZ workforce and taking a job (commuting overseas) that offers exponentially more time off for the same return. Now I can spend more time with my family, a basic unit of a good society.

[Ocean1]

and?

instead of making excuses, what would YOU suggest?

i've already said i support work for dole schemes

I was the one who suggested he get out of that line of work.

A redundant suggestion however, his largess had already bankruped him, a fate many small businessmen can empathise with.

And my suggestion to you remains the same, don't hire people incapable of supporting the cost of their wages, or you won't be in a position to offer such charity for long.

[idleidolidyll]

That grabs my attention being the lazy overpaid pilot bastard that I am.

I worked for Ansett NZ for 10 years and it was a great job with a high quality Airline. They wanted to cut costs and locked us out... The rest is history and I'm still locked out. Took some contracts overseas for a few years learnt a lot, had some fun and earned some reasonable coin. Returning back to NZ I joined the newly formed Qantas (New Zealand). Much the same job that I had with Ansett, driving a 100 seat jet around on the main trunk plus a bit of Tasman hopping. Cool life as it was..! Hell No it isn't, how surprised I was at how things had changed. It costs so damn much to live here and the income for a jet driver (outside of Air nz) is now considerably lower. We do 16 hour days now, much of it at the back of the clock and only get 8 random days off a month. Believe me, my colleagues and I spend a lot of time in a tired stupor trying to catch up on sleep. Yup Pilots do get paid well, even when we aren't on the pigs back. We paid a fortune to get there and we keep em (you) alive in an ever increasingly complex world. It is still spiraling and the catch 22 here with the airlines is safety and as we descend into third world costs, we also descend into third world safety standards (without admitting it). Look at the tired old 737's flying our routes at the moment. The airline industry in NZ in the past 8 years or so has been driven down by a devolved CAA, overseas corporations (QF) taking advantage of cheaper and easier labour laws and creative accountancy. But hey you guys now have cheaper tickets, great for the consumer eh..?

cheers for that honest post terbang:

bugger all quality free time and less and less buying power

life isn't counted by the number of toys you own

[idleidolidyll]

I was the one who suggested he get out of that line of work.

A redundant suggestion however, his largess had already bankruped him, a fate many small businessmen can empathise with.

And my suggestion to you remains the same, don't hire people incapable of supporting the cost of their wages, or you won't be in a position to offer such charity for long.

a non answer

you decry the dole etc but when asked for an option, you offer none

i reiterate; i support work for dole schemes because capitalism relies on unemployed excesses but people still have to support themselves and their families

[Ocean1]

a non answer

you decry the dole etc but when asked for an option, you offer none

i reiterate; i support work for dole schemes because capitalism relies on unemployed excesses but people still have to support themselves and their families

Dude there are a bunch of problems which lack an answer you might find acceptable, a function of your aprehension of cause and effect with regard to economic reality rather than any failure of that reality to comply with your wishes. Of your more unrealistic requests to halt the tide, enshrining the rights of social failures to aspire to the heights of a modern sophisticated lifestyle by the judicial application of cash is possibly the least worthy of my attention.

[idleidolidyll]

Dude there are a bunch of problems which lack an answer you might find acceptable, a function of your aprehension of cause and effect with regard to economic reality rather than any failure of that reality to comply with your wishes. Of your more unrealistic requests to halt the tide, enshrining the rights of social failures to aspire to the heights of a modern sophisticated lifestyle by the judicial application of cash is possibly the least worthy of my attention.

so there ya go STILL bashing my posts but STILL no suggestions yourself

i'll be away for the next 5 hours or so, i look forward to seeing your SOLUTIONS when I get back

[Indiana_Jones]

So let me get this right, if the pussy arse girls at the UN said it's ok to go into Iraq, then there wouldn't be Iraqies blowing each other up at the moment.

Also, wtf is an illgeal war?

You just declare war and walk in, or the other way round, if you're sneaky lol

-Indy

[Ocean1]

so there ya go STILL bashing my posts but STILL no suggestions yourself

i'll be away for the next 5 hours or so, i look forward to seeing your SOLUTIONS when I get back

The SOLUTION is to NOT support non-viable behaviour.

The SOLUTION is to NOT teach our kids there's such a thing as "easy money"

The SOLUTION is to NOT provide alternatives to genuine employment.

Again: Give generously to those who are genuinely disabled, and call it by it's propper name: charity.

And yet again: Charity given to those who are not so disabled will almost always cripple them. So don't do it.

[Ocean1]

Also, wtf is an illgeal war?

You just declare war and walk in, or the other way round, if you're sneaky lol

-Indy

Google "jus in bello" and "jus ad bellum".

[Indiana_Jones]

Google "jus in bello" and "jus ad bellum".

Those don't look like very clear cut rules to me

-Indy

[scumdog]

and?


i've already said i support work for dole schemes

Ah, but will the 'dolies' see it your way??

[avgas]

Lets all jump on the bang wagon here, as idol said - marketing is stronger than common sense.
Did people complain to the teeth before "Upsize me"?
Fact of the matter is i think Macca's and all the big chains out there do offer an extra concept for NZ'rs.
Its the concept of 'free game'.
Previous to this, you had to rely on 'Whatever was available'.
As someone who grew up while the whole 'chain' thing came on i have to admit there are major changes in NZ that have improved NZ.
- Seatbelts
Wearing a seatbelt in NZ was as rare occasion before the "Make it Click"
- Happiness
Whatching ya kids play and laugh while you spend time with them and your misses/extended family is priceless, at McDonalds in the 80's it cost 15 minutes of your time and $20. Getting the same happiness elsewhere cost you a tank of gas, 20 mins driving and something that was going to keep the kids excited ($$$)
- Employment
I have full respect for those that work at Macca's. Your pay packet is pretty much the same of those that do not work here. Yet you get no respect. I wouldn't be supprised if the unemployment ammount doubled with all the food chains leaving nz.
- Health
Are people getting fatter? or Fat people eating more?
I refuse to believe that a food type makes people fat - people make people fat, not food.
If we removed the fast food chains, i would put money down that people would continue to get fatter. Our lifestyle has changed, more than what we eat.
Fast food chains offer you 1 thing all over the world - Consistency. Previous to that you were unsure if you were going to get the trots or throw up everytime you went overseas. While in NY, we couldnt find public toilets anywhere......except McD's and Starbucks. Likewise my father would only drink COKE in Samoa, as he new it was clean.

But no, lets go poppy hunting..... i like the tall ones.
That is NZ culture trait, not the rest of the world

[davereid]

Work for the dole ?

Well, The Right Hon. Ms Bradford M.P. said "Work for the dole is the moral equivalent of being given periodic detention because you can't get a job"

So I guess income tax must be the moral equivalent of being fined because you can get a job ?

[scumdog]

life isn't counted by the number of toys you own

True, but when you DO get spare time (and aren't wasting it on KB - I'm just back from a 20km mtb ride btw) it's nice to go "hmmm, which one will I play with now?"

[Robert Taylor]

Geeze, this is why I avoid politics.....I have travelled a fair bit and reckon that NZ is probably the best 'Westernised' country in the world to live and that is all that matters to me.

I think one can allow oneself (I use 'one' to avoid descrimination) to get too embroiled in the what fors and want fors of politics and that this is just what the Politicians want.........'life' is what it is all about and sometimes we....whoops, sorry..one can allow this to get lost in politics

Whether one cares about it or not politicians intrude into our daily lives, obsessively so, and this has accelerated enormously during this millenium. If we are all universally blase about it the rug will be pulled out beneath us somewhat faster

[Robert Taylor]

come on now Robert; it was YOU who suggested going backwards not me.

i merely pointed out the hypocrisy of stopping at the point YOU think suits.

MY suggestion was to go forward

Yeah but you got carried away and took me out of my comfort zone!

BTW, do you wear Chinese clothes made with sweatshop labour? I think we all are universally hypocritical. Heck, there may be Nazi sympathisers assembling your favoured Orange motorbikes. The KTM hat might be made in China? Ohlins is 90% owned by a Japanese company, a country that committed horrific atrocities half a century ago etc etc. Sweden had it both ways during WW2, selling to both sides, and even allowed passage of Nazi troops via their railway system to occupy Norway.

I dont think history is always an excuse for appropriating an income stream. Where do you draw the line?

Ad infinitum...

[Robert Taylor]

The SOLUTION is to NOT support non-viable behaviour.

The SOLUTION is to NOT teach our kids there's such a thing as "easy money"

The SOLUTION is to NOT provide alternatives to genuine employment.

Again: Give generously to those who are genuinely disabled, and call it by it's propper name: charity.

And yet again: Charity given to those who are not so disabled will almost always cripple them. So don't do it.

You are so right

[avgas]

sure it was a choice (well if you exclude what the kaffalik church kept telling ma)

so what? we still have to compare apples with apples not pears
Yep, 2 beneficiaries can raise 10 kids these days ;) its their choice

[Grahameeboy]

Whether one cares about it or not politicians intrude into our daily lives, obsessively so, and this has accelerated enormously during this millenium. If we are all universally blase about it the rug will be pulled out beneath us somewhat faster

Well they do not intrude into my daily life (and my circumstances could easly let it)........I sometimes wonder who is obsessive, the Govt. or people.........

[Hitcher]

• Rage against waste and want.
• Just enough is plenty.
• Reject the limits of division and self interest.
• Seek freedom. Freedom from greed and from poverty, freedom to learn, freedom to share, freedom to wonder.
• Connect. Our capacity for supporting one another is humanity’s defining virtue.
• Draw strength from unity. Alone we are precious, together we are powerful.
• Take control. We are what we do.

[Grahameeboy]

The SOLUTION is to NOT support non-viable behaviour.

The SOLUTION is to NOT teach our kids there's such a thing as "easy money"

The SOLUTION is to NOT provide alternatives to genuine employment.

Again: Give generously to those who are genuinely disabled, and call it by it's propper name: charity.

No "Entitlement"......disabled people don't want charity.

And yet again: Charity given to those who are not so disabled will almost always cripple them. So don't do it.........................

[davereid]

• Just enough is plenty.


Lol
Hitcher
Devious, cunning and inventive
Bike: 2005 Yamaha FJR1300T


Shouldn't that read 2005 Yamaha 50 ? :eek:

[Grahameeboy]

• Rage against waste and want.
• Just enough is plenty.
• Reject the limits of division and self interest.
• Seek freedom. Freedom from greed and from poverty, freedom to learn, freedom to share, freedom to wonder.
• Connect. Our capacity for supporting one another is humanity’s defining virtue.
• Draw strength from unity. Alone we are precious, together we are powerful.
• Take control. We are what we do.

Well you are a Mod....................:msn-wink:

[Finn]

• Rage against waste and want.
• Just enough is plenty.
• Reject the limits of division and self interest.
• Seek freedom. Freedom from greed and from poverty, freedom to learn, freedom to share, freedom to wonder.
• Connect. Our capacity for supporting one another is humanity’s defining virtue.
• Draw strength from unity. Alone we are precious, together we are powerful.
• Take control. We are what we do.

I can see you're a great fan of Charles Manson. He thought the same.

[Hitcher]

Shouldn't that read 2005 Yamaha 50?

Just enough is plenty.

[Ocean1]

No "Entitlement"......disabled people don't want charity.........................

Yes, I'm aware of your circumstances dude.

Disabled people's entitlements are a function of law, it's a legslative term, and I agree, it's not charity.

Charity is the correct noun, however, to apply to the act of one person giving assistance to another in need. Don't read too much into it eh? True charity does exist, and it's a delightful thing to see, arguably the one thing that defines us best.

[davereid]

Charity is the correct noun, however, to apply to the act of one person giving assistance to another in need. Don't read too much into it eh? True charity does exist, and it's a delightful thing to see, arguably the one thing that defines us best.

Of course if you have purchased insurance, then its an entitlement to be paid, not charity.

Even though we have a stack of government assistance, it never ceases to amaze me, how many NZers are involved in charity or volunteer work.

[Grahameeboy]

Yes, I'm aware of your circumstances dude.

Disabled people's entitlements are a function of law, it's a legslative term, and I agree, it's not charity.

Charity is the correct noun, however, to apply to the act of one person giving assistance to another in need. Don't read too much into it eh? True charity does exist, and it's a delightful thing to see, arguably the one thing that defines us best.

I know, was not reading too much into it....;)........just could not resist.

But on a serious note, I have been to many a Disability forum and the way that Disability funding is run, you would think the Govt does consider it a 'Charity' at times.

Ministry of Education seems to have unlimited funds and provides a lot more for Nats when she goes to school than the Ministry of Health do......unless she was Maori when she would get special treatment.....sorry not anti-Maori, just pointing out a fact.

But life was never meant to be easy and despite alleged intrusions by the Govt, it is up to each and everyone of us how we decide to deal with life, not the Govts.

[Grahameeboy]

Of course if you have purchased insurance, then its an entitlement to be paid, not charity.

Even though we have a stack of government assistance, it never ceases to amaze me, how many NZers are involved in charity or volunteer work.

Isn't income tax an insurance??

[Ocean1]

plenty is Just enough.

Fixed.....

[Finn]

Yes, I'm aware of your circumcision dude.

I don't think it's a disability but it does desensitise the enjoyment a bit.

[Finn]

Isn't income tax an insurance??

Like fuck it is. It's wealth distribution.

[davereid]

ACC is, no doubt about that.

General income tax ? Thats harder to work out.

We all know that we are offered (some level) of health and disability care by the government, even if its not very good.

So we tend to behave as if we are insured. Few of us buy health insurance as we think we are already covered. And fewer still buy disability cover.

The reality is, that in a high tax environment, most of us simply have to accept the cover offered by government as our insurance - as we don't have enough cash left to buy it elswhere !

[Hitcher]

I don't think it's a disability but it does desensitise the enjoyment a bit.

Show me the population-based studies that confirm this.

[Grahameeboy]

Like fuck it is. It's wealth distribution.

But surely being a millionthaire you get more benefits??

[Grahameeboy]

I don't think it's a disability but it does desensitise the enjoyment a bit.

Not necessarily for the receiver.........

[Finn]

Show me the population-based studies that confirm this.

Put it this way... Leave your bike outside in the elements and eventually the paint starts to dull and crack. Then corrosion sets in and you may find it stops working according to the manufacturers specifications.

[Finn]

But surely being a millionthaire you get more benefits??

No more than a professional breeder on welfare.

[Grahameeboy]

Put it this way... Leave your bike outside in the elements and eventually the paint starts to dull and crack. Then corrosion sets in and you may find it stops working according to the manufacturers specifications.

Sounds like you talk from personal experience.......I mean you left your Honda in storage and it cut out.........:rolleyes:

[Finn]

Sounds like you talk from personal experience.......I mean you left your Honda in storage and it cut out.........:rolleyes:

Well Honda's are gay. I meant a heterosexual bike.

[Grahameeboy]

Well Honda's are gay. I meant a heterosexual bike.

Is that the best reply you have....................not even worth giving you the :clap:for that own:whistle:

[Hitcher]

Put it this way... Leave your bike outside in the elements and eventually the paint starts to dull and crack. Then corrosion sets in and you may find it stops working according to the manufacturers specifications.

Not with the regular and sustained application of polish. And occasional garaging.

[Finn]

Not with the regular and sustained application of polish. And occasional garaging.

I'd rep you for that but I'm still on parole.

[idleidolidyll]

Yep, 2 beneficiaries can raise 10 kids these days ;) its their choice

and some foreign corporates get to pay no tax for years on the promise of some dubious 'benefit' to new zealand: aint life ridiculous?

[idleidolidyll]

True, but when you DO get spare time (and aren't wasting it on KB - I'm just back from a 20km mtb ride btw) it's nice to go "hmmm, which one will I play with now?"

sure, and when Dad had spare time he'd be off on his scooter, off hunting etc etc

good on yer re mtbiking; great sport that and teaches ya lots for motor powered ones

[idleidolidyll]

Ah, but will the 'dolies' see it your way??

who gives a rats arse? they're not here to argue about it

[idleidolidyll]

Yeah but you got carried away and took me out of my comfort zone!

BTW, do you wear Chinese clothes made with sweatshop labour? I think we all are universally hypocritical. Heck, there may be Nazi sympathisers assembling your favoured Orange motorbikes. The KTM hat might be made in China? Ohlins is 90% owned by a Japanese company, a country that committed horrific atrocities half a century ago etc etc. Sweden had it both ways during WW2, selling to both sides, and even allowed passage of Nazi troops via their railway system to occupy Norway.

I dont think history is always an excuse for appropriating an income stream. Where do you draw the line?

Ad infinitum...

ha!ha! that's what i seem to do best: push people out of their cosy little self delusions (in my humble opinion).

business is exceptionally good at ignoring shit like Nike making slaves out of Indonesian workers etc until some socialist points it out at home.

i used to design clothing that was made in China. Hemp clothing, long wearing and expensive.
I made a number of surprise visits to my factory in south west China to make sure it wasn't a sweat shop. THAT factory would have rated well in NZ, in fact better than most. Sweat shops exist though as they do on the Amerikan protectorate Islands not far from Japan.

The wage thing is ridiculous. The absolute dollar value for wages is not relevant but that's what's usually quoted ($1 a day etc). If that $1 buys the worker a better than average lifestyle/quality of life than the average for their kind of worker in their city, what's the problem?

To equate it to absolute terms shouldn't we all be earning as much as the average Luxembourgian?

Forget Japan's horrors, Amerika is every bit as bad today, it's just well hidden in so called wars on terror etc. Propaganda in the US is constant. Imaging having to sing the national anthem in Amerika every fucking morning or face abuse from your peers EVEN IF YOU'RE A KIWI!
Yes, a frriend of mine lived there with her family for a number of years and even though she wasn't a Uank, she was made to sing with them. She eventually refused and was pilloried.

[idleidolidyll]

The SOLUTION is to NOT support non-viable behaviour.

The SOLUTION is to NOT teach our kids there's such a thing as "easy money"

The SOLUTION is to NOT provide alternatives to genuine employment.

Again: Give generously to those who are genuinely disabled, and call it by it's propper name: charity.

And yet again: Charity given to those who are not so disabled will almost always cripple them. So don't do it.

Oh dear, none of those are solutions; they're just the 'easy as pie' attacks on something someone else is doing.

Anyone can say "that's bad", it takes intelligence to actually suggest solutions.

Charity doesn't work, it's usually tied up in politics with very attached strings like don't sell condoms to Africans (Amerikan charity). The US is about the LEAST charitable country on the planet if you count per head of population. They give about 0.18% of GDP. NZ gives about 0.25 but Western Euro countries give 0.75%.

BTW: Yank charity includes so called charity to Israel. Money spent killing Palestinians and supporting Israel's military. They are Amerika's biggest receiver of charity even though their mean incomes are in first world figures. It's bullshit.

Yes, the SOCIALIST countries.

[Hitcher]

and some foreign corporates get to pay no tax for years on the promise of some dubious 'benefit' to new zealand: aint life ridiculous?


Oh dear, none of those are solutions; they're just the 'easy as pie' attacks on something someone else is doing.

Life in reverse can be revealing?

[idleidolidyll]

Life in reverse can be revealing?

you'd be right if i hadn't actually offered ideas as solutions but i did

my opposition, when challenged to do what they demanded of me, haven't

[davereid]

you'd be right if i hadn't actually offered ideas as solutions but i did

Huh ? I Haven't seen you offer a solution to anything ? Remind me !

Lets do "brass tacks"
1. How do we improve the standard of living of New Zealanders ?
2. How do we keep inflation whipped ?
3. Why after 50 years of socialisim are we now at the bottom of the OECD not the top ?

[riffer]

I have a question that I wonder if anyone can answer.

We have to pay $2.80-odd for a 2-litre bottle of milk. This is because we purchase in a global market now. The price we pay is because that is the cost of the product globally.

But this same rule is not extended to wages. There is no global market for the average wage.

Am I the only person who wonders about this?

BTW. My results of the Political Compass:

Economic Left/Right: -5.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.49

[davereid]

I have a question that I wonder if anyone can answer.

We have to pay $2.80-odd for a 2-litre bottle of milk. This is because we purchase in a global market now. The price we pay is because that is the cost of the product globally.

But this same rule is not extended to wages. There is no global market for the average wage.

Am I the only person who wonders about this?

BTW. My results of the Political Compass:

Economic Left/Right: -5.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.49

Thats because its easy and simple to move a litre/container of milk from country to country.

Buts its very tricky to immigate/emigrate.

People by and large have to stay-where-put.

Interestingly, people who leave their home country as productive people over the years have been very common. Chinese, Irish, germans and yep Kiwis are amongst the most voluntary diasporic people in the world.

[Delerium]

ha!ha! that's what i seem to do best: push people out of their cosy little self delusions (in my humble opinion).

business is exceptionally good at ignoring shit like Nike making slaves out of Indonesian workers etc until some socialist points it out at home.

i used to design clothing that was made in China. Hemp clothing, long wearing and expensive.
I made a number of surprise visits to my factory in south west China to make sure it wasn't a sweat shop. THAT factory would have rated well in NZ, in fact better than most. Sweat shops exist though as they do on the Amerikan protectorate Islands not far from Japan.

The wage thing is ridiculous. The absolute dollar value for wages is not relevant but that's what's usually quoted ($1 a day etc). If that $1 buys the worker a better than average lifestyle/quality of life than the average for their kind of worker in their city, what's the problem?

To equate it to absolute terms shouldn't we all be earning as much as the average Luxembourgian?

Forget Japan's horrors, Amerika is every bit as bad today, it's just well hidden in so called wars on terror etc. Propaganda in the US is constant. Imaging having to sing the national anthem in Amerika every fucking morning or face abuse from your peers EVEN IF YOU'RE A KIWI!
Yes, a frriend of mine lived there with her family for a number of years and even though she wasn't a Uank, she was made to sing with them. She eventually refused and was pilloried.

I know a few people that have worked at camp america and had to sing their national anthem every morning. Being NZ military it soon became FUCK THAT! It stoppped and being kiwis they told them how it was and shortly the bullshit and ribbings stopped.

[idleidolidyll]

Huh ? I Haven't seen you offer a solution to anything ? Remind me !

Lets do "brass tacks"
1. How do we improve the standard of living of New Zealanders ?
2. How do we keep inflation whipped ?
3. Why after 50 years of socialisim are we now at the bottom of the OECD not the top ?

go back and do some reading then. i'm not going to repeat myself.

as for your continued propensity to ask or demand answers from me, you go first and we'll talk about what your opinions are

[idleidolidyll]

I have a question that I wonder if anyone can answer.

We have to pay $2.80-odd for a 2-litre bottle of milk. This is because we purchase in a global market now. The price we pay is because that is the cost of the product globally.

But this same rule is not extended to wages. There is no global market for the average wage.

Am I the only person who wonders about this?

BTW. My results of the Political Compass:

Economic Left/Right: -5.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.49

Yes Riffer, that IS an interesting issue.

Food prices in New Zealand are skyrocketing mainly because Yanks and Europeans can afford to pay more for our own produce than we can. We just can't compete as customers.
We all know that prices have increased markedly but wages have not kept up. That's been going on for a very long time.

The international hunt for the lowest cost producers drives the other end. It's a race to the bottom to provide the cheapest labour.

IMO, protectionism is essential in a tiny economy like NZ. Leaving our currency and economy open to manipulation by far more powerful foreign companies, nations and consumers is stupid; even the 'mighty' USA has a raft of taxes and subsidies to protect its producers.

[davereid]

as for your continued propensity to ask or demand answers from me, you go first and we'll talk about what your opinions are

?? It was the first time I had ever asked you a question. You have mistaken me for someone who thinks you may have an answer ! :wacko:

[Finn]

The international hunt for the lowest cost producers drives the other end. It's a race to the bottom to provide the cheapest labour.

And don't you just love it! It's the free market kicking socialist scum right in the nuts.

Capitalism always wins in the end. But go on, keep trying to control it... it'll just bite harder.

[Hitcher]

IMO, protectionism is essential in a tiny economy like NZ. Leaving our currency and economy open to manipulation by far more powerful foreign companies, nations and consumers is stupid; even the 'mighty' USA has a raft of taxes and subsidies to protect its producers.

I disagree. When the elephants mate, the grass gets trampled. New Zealand is a very small producer of agricultural products at the arse end of the world. Our economic survival depends on free access to world markets. Putting up barriers to imported goods and services is the same thing as removing the Union Jack on our flag and replacing it with a banana.

[riffer]

Cluster B Personality Disorders
1776.0 Americanistic Personality Disorder
The essential features of Americanistic Personality Disorder include pervasive patterns of extreme self-absorption, profound and long-term lapses in empathy, a deep disregard for the well-being of others, a powerful aversion to intellectual honesty and reality, and a grossly exaggerated sense of the importance of one’s self and one’s nation. These patterns emerge in infancy, manifest themselves in nearly all contexts, and often become pathological.
These patterns have also been characterized as sociopathic, or colloquially as the “Ugly American Syndrome.” Note that the latter terminology carries too benign a connotation to accurately describe an individual afflicted with such a dangerous perversion of character.
For this diagnosis to be given, the individual must be deeply immersed in the flag-waving, nationalistic, and militaristic fervor derived primarily from the nearly perpetual barrage of reality warping emanations of the “mainstream media,” most commonly through the medium of television. Typically indoctrinated from birth to believe that they are morally superior, exceptional human beings, these individuals suffer from severe egocentrism, a condition further engendered by the prevalence of the acutely toxic dominant paradigm known as capitalism.
Individuals with Americanistic Personality Disorder are generally covertly racist, xenophobic, and openly speciesistic. They readily participate in the execution of heinous crimes against human and non-human animals, even if their complicity is banal and limited. As long as they are comfortable, safe, and enjoying the relative affluence and convenience afforded by their nation’s economic extortion, cultural genocide, rape of other species and the environment, and imperial conquests, such individuals display an apathetic disregard for the well-being of other human beings, sentient creatures, and the environment.
Individuals with Americanistic Personality Disorder tend to exhibit unabated greed and an insatiable desire for material goods. Fueled by a compulsion to shop and acquire excessive amounts of material goods, a condition sometimes referred to as consumerism, they have no regard for the misery and destruction caused by their pathological need for “more stuff”. When confronted with the finitude and fragility of the Earth, they frequently react with level one ego defenses by denying that their behavior is a part of the problem or by distorting reality by asserting that concerns about Climate Change, resource depletion, and irreversible damage to the environment are over-blown. Their deeply entrenched sense of entitlement renders excessive consumption a nearly immutable aspect of their behavior.
Individuals with Americanistic Personality Disorder are virtually devoid of empathy or compassion. They view life as a game played by “law of the jungle” rules and co-exist with others in a chronic state of hyper-competitiveness, seeking only to advance their careers and “keep up with the Joneses.” Their desire to win, get ahead and “protect what is theirs” has been so deeply etched into their psyches that their capacity to empathize and experience true concern for the well-being of others is severely stunted or extinguished. The pursuit of property, profit, and power rules their malformed psyches, nearly eliminating their capacity for humane behavior.
Individuals with Americanistic Personality Disorder almost always rely on extortion or violence to get their needs met and to resolve conflict. Believing in their inherent superiority, they eschew laws or rules except when they can utilize them for personal gain or when they fear punishment. Given a choice between a just resolution to a situation and the opportunity to humiliate, subdue, or subjugate the other party, they will choose the latter with a high degree of frequency. They have an amazing capacity to justify their unethical or criminal behavior using false pretexts such as self defense, good intentions, ignorance of the consequences of their actions, or asserting that they were merely carrying out orders.
Individuals with Americanistic Personality Disorder tend to manifest traits indicative of two of Erich Fromm’s personality orientations. They thrive on adding to their possessions, and appreciate their acquisitions more when they attain them through coercion, theft, or manipulation, thus showing strains of Fromm’s exploitative type. They also exist at a very superficial level, offering the world the “friendly face” of the marketing personality that Bernays and Madison Avenue have taught them is the most effective way of advancing their selfish agenda. Opportunism, careerism, and narcissism poison nearly all of their interactions and relationships.
Specific Culture Features
Americanistic Personality Disorder appears to prevail in a very high percentage of those in the upper strata of the socioeconomic order in the United States (and to persist tenaciously because these individuals have little motivation to alter their pathological behavior as they are largely immune from the consequences of their actions). While it is epidemic amongst the opulent, this characterological deficiency does not recognize socioeconomic boundaries. Various segments of the middle, working and impoverished classes comprise a notable percentage of those exhibiting this condition, including those practicing deeply conservative Christianity, many residents of reactionary states such as those in the south, Kansas, Idaho, Utah, and Wyoming, and many members of the Republican Party.
Prevalence
The overall prevalence of Americanistic Personality Disorder was recently measured at approximately 35% of the overall population in the United States.
—————————————————————————————–
Diagnostic Criteria for 1776.0 Americanistic Personality Disorder:
A pervasive pattern of greed, selfishness, and lack of empathy, beginning the moment he or she begins to intellectualize and presented in nearly all contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
1. lacks empathy due to an excessive degree of self-absorption
2. believes that he or she is exceptional and morally superior
3. frequently engages in exploitative behaviors
4. requires frequent acquisition of goods he or she doesn’t need
5. usually resorts to some form of overt or covert violence, coercion, or extortion to resolve conflicts
6. perceives others as obstacles to his or her “success”
7. disregards laws and rules except as a means to achieve his or her agenda
8. demonstrates deep hypocrisy by projecting a righteous, benevolent image while committing reprehensible acts
9. refuses to accept the consequences of his or her action

You can find the original article here. (http://www.bestcyrano.org/THOMASPAINE/?p=362)

[Robert Taylor]

I disagree. When the elephants mate, the grass gets trampled. New Zealand is a very small producer of agricultural products at the arse end of the world. Our economic survival depends on free access to world markets. Putting up barriers to imported goods and services is the same thing as removing the Union Jack on our flag and replacing it with a banana.

I think we should have a good old fashioned right wing military coup and reset the goalposts!

[Bass]

I disagree. When the elephants mate, the grass gets trampled. New Zealand is a very small producer of agricultural products at the arse end of the world. Our economic survival depends on free access to world markets. Putting up barriers to imported goods and services is the same thing as removing the Union Jack on our flag and replacing it with a banana.

I agree with every word Hitcher says and I think that it puts us in a very vulnerable position.
Back in the days that III refers to (when I also grew up) our agriculture was much more in demand than it is now. Also our producers got a bigger slice of the final sale price and so we could raise tariff barriers to protect our own industry and get away with it.
I guess we could go back to that, but the supply of consumer goods that we are all well used to would dry up smartly.

Is there anything we can learn from places like... say ... Singapore? (genuine question)

[scumdog]

[B]and presented in nearly all contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
1. lacks empathy due to an excessive degree of self-absorption
2. believes that he or she is exceptional and morally superior
3. frequently engages in exploitative behaviors
4. requires frequent acquisition of goods he or she doesn’t need
5. usually resorts to some form of overt or covert violence, coercion, or extortion to resolve conflicts
6. perceives others as obstacles to his or her “success”
7. disregards laws and rules except as a means to achieve his or her agenda
8. demonstrates deep hypocrisy by projecting a righteous, benevolent image while committing reprehensible acts
9. refuses to accept the consequences of his or her action

You can find the original article here. (http://www.bestcyrano.org/THOMASPAINE/?p=362)

Hey, that sounds like a large part of South Auckland and other suburbs of similar ilk.

Surely THEY aren't American too???:blink:

[terbang]

Is there anything we can learn from places like... say ... Singapore? (genuine question)

Often wonder about that. Aussies dig holes and become richer. Arabs bore holes and, same thing. However there are those like Singapore and even the UK to a lesser extent, who no matter how much digging of drilling they do, are unlikely to get rich. They also haven't got enough space to grow stuff either (other than buildings). So I guess all they really have is whats between their ears. Now multiply that by many millions, and in comparison to our 4 mill, they seem to do OK.

[terbang]

Surely THEY aren't American too???:blink:

Nope, but they could learn that sort of behavior or attitude from the TV..

[riffer]

Ah. You missed the point SD.

It's not that they are American. It's the name of the Syndrome.

[scumdog]

Ah. You missed the point SD.

It's not that they are American. It's the name of the Syndrome.

Sorry, too subtle!!!!

NZ is escalating rapidly in getting its Sydrome to match that of the USA imho if you measure it by the increasing homicide/violence/robbery/drug offence rates.

[riffer]

You're not wrong mate.

Jebus, I wouldn't want your job. :pinch: At least you got nice weather today.

[The Stranger]

Well seeing as you are KTM orange, I'll run with Yamaha Blue.
</o>
<o></o>Way I see it is this.
Macs give us, the consumer, choice, prior to this we had fish & chips.
<o></o>
Not at all: Prior to Macs, we had big juicy burgers and a wide choice from lots of locally owned and run outlets with the profits staying in NZ. I clearly remember the introduction of McD. It was with great fanfare but pretty soon after the initial opening, great burgers started disappearing and we were left with speed and hype as opposed to quality.

Yes my reference to fish & chips was mostly referring to the establishments rather than the scope of options, my bad, and yes I realize that there were other options, however, fewer. Personal experiences aside, by definition a new player on the market is actually additional choice for the consumer. Burger bars did survive and the selection of items over all increased, ergo choice did increase
The consumer had the choice of voting with their feet, and they did at times, the Browns Bay store opened then went out of business - I assume due to poor patronage, no amount of advertising was going to drag the poms away from their fish and chips.


The bring competition. I must admit, I have not done any study on this, but anecdotally I doubt it is much dearer to eat out these days than to shop, purchase, store, prepare and cook your own food and do the dishes etc after. Either way I think it would be hard to dispute that competition does tend to benefit the consumer on a cost basis. Accepted there are other measures, however, given the choices we now have you can soon vote with your feet.
<o></o>
Cost is one measure but to focus only on cost is to miss much of the point. At what cost does the cheap price come? In NZ it meant the closing of awesome little burger bars serving great food for good prices in favour of a product that was cheap but about half the mass. (burgeres before McD’s were much bigger) Add to that the loss of NZ$ to offshore companies and the common practice of McD’s to offer minimum wage (bare minimum using kids as staff) and to actively prevent unionism and the eye they keep on staff abuse etc and the picture becomes a bit clearer.

Did it really mean the closing of awesome little burger bars? How many of the awesome ones actually closed as a result of McD? If the consumer truly valued them as awesome, they would not have closed. Indeed the trend has been to more and more eating out (witness the obesity epidemic) it does not hold that one had to die for the other to survive.
As to using kids for staff. Is this inherently bad? I do this too perhaps in the misguided belief that I am helping them. I must admit, I have never forced a kid to work for me and if McD are doing this then I must concur with you, it is indeed a bad situation.

Macs assembles it's product apparently from materials sourced locally, so a lot of local business profit from supplying milk, meat, breads, packaging, rubbish collection etc etc. Things like achitectural, engineering and IT and construction are of course sourced locally also.
<o></o>
Yep, that’s what they say they do. I won’t argue with that point except to say that they didn’t increase purchases from NZ businesses, they just monopolised them by forcing individually owned businesses out of the market.

As a building contractor in a previous life I worked at every KFC store between Orewa and Pukekohe. All work was tendered in what would appear to have been a fair and reasonable process, usually involving at least 6 tenderers and in each case the work went to the lowest conforming bid. As far as I could see it was fair and equitable, in fact my experience is that they would go out of their way to ensure there was no impropriety in our dealing, I figured that was because they knew word would get around and they need to deal with those they could trust in the future. I realize that KFC is not McD however I do believe that we are talking principals here, not specifically about McD. Again has a supplier really been forced out of the market as a result of dealing with or not dealing with McD?

In addition to the indirect employment means mentioned above, Macs supply a lot of jobs directly. Now many of these are low paid and perhaps minimum wage jobs. That said, someone somewhere has to earn the minimum wage and as I see it one likely alternative to minimum is no job. No job probably means on the dole. So Macs potentially help the country enormously by taking a percentage of people that would otherwise cost us a lot (of dole) and turn them into contributors (tax payers).
<o></o>
Actually MOST are low paid. There is a will by McD’s to use student labour and a lot of that is FOREIGN student labour. I once did some volunteer work for the <st1>Union</st1> that finally got into McD’s (Unite) and saw first hand how that works. Many of those students had very very dubious rights to work in NZ and were afraid to speak out for fear of loss of their job. This is first hand experience not hearsay. As a side note; as you can see from this statement, i do more than just talk about issues.<o></o>
Students of that age (still at high school) don’t generally draw the dole and neither do foreign students so much of the argument above is moot.

In order to survive in competition with the next business I want my overheads as low as possible. I have put a lot into my business, I have risked my saving, my arse is on the line if it goes south. If I could refine my business processes such that they can be run on student labour I would (and do where possible). As to the hiring of people with dubious rights to work, is it McD or the local franchise owner whom is hiring these people? Students desire money, some require money and they still contribute to the economy. You say they feared speaking out, however, you do not say what it is they would say, were they able.

So the profits go overseas. Well not all of it. The suppliers presumably profit, the salary and wage earners profit, I am sure the franchisee profits and presumably they all pay some taxes that otherwise would not have been collected. But even with a portion of their turnover going overseas how is this inherently bad.
<o></o>
Yes, local suppliers do profit but they also profited BEFORE McD’s. There IS a nett loss both in tax income and money sent offshore. The ability of big companies to avoid tax or pay minimal tax is well known as is the propensity for governments in NZ to give them tax breaks based on often dubious suggestions that they would add something to NZ.

Sure, we profited too before we worked for KFC, but in all honest made more in the years I was there working with KFC than before. Now I can't say exactly where the extra money came from precisely, however as the overall work load increases our prices tended to rise as did our margins. They aren't the be all to end all, however they sure did us no harm.

How also does it differ say from purchasing a motorcycle, which presumably is acceptable as you would appear to have a few.
A motorcycle is made from materials sourced from overseas, assembled with foregin labour, in plants constructed in another land. We collect little tax from the whole procees (ignoring GST as this is also charged on Macs).
<o></o>
That’s a fair question. Sadly though, we don’t make bikes in NZ (That fact alone makes this line quite irrelevant.), but if we did, I’d likely be standing in line.<o></o>

Would you still purchase the NZ motorbike if your perception of the NZ assembled product was inferior or if it was demonstrably inferior?
I also must disagree with writing the argument off as "quite irrelevant" to me your writing it off is actually quite convenient as it means you don't have to rationalize your hypocracy. Despite what many on here would say, a motorcycle is not an essential part of life. It is a lifestyle choice, the same as McD is a lifestyle choice. You have elected to purchase imported goods with many if not all the flaws you stand against. Either our money going to overseas companies is bad or it isn't. What is it?

<o></o>
Burgers are a different proposition: we had an existing industry largely run by Mom and Dad small businesses that just couldn’t compete with a megacorp prepared to offer a sub standard product ((yes, my opinion)) based on convincing kids to pester their parents, a dubious ‘convenience’ and their knowledge that they could drive down wages to compete easily with owner operators.<o></o>
I’d rather pay more and get a decent burger any day (and frequently do)

Way I see it is if Macs is bad, motorcycle is WAY bad.
Where have I got my wires crossed please?
<o></o>
I think the above addresses that question.<o></o>
<o></o>
My question is this: what nett benefit to NZ did the introduction of McD’s have? Net benefit not individual benefit. As per the above argument, I suggest the nett benefit has been a negative one.


This really is an unanswerable question. Things that I may see as a net benefit you may not. Some view progress as a good thing, some view it as a bad thing. I view jobs for students as a positive, it would appear you have a problem with this. You would therefore need to define for me please the word "benefit" in this context. However, in my view, yes there is a gain, as I set out in my initial post.

[Hitcher]

This Naomi Klein anti-"corporatist" propaganda is nauseatingly irritating.

McDonald's Corporation set itself up in New Zealand almost 30 years ago. In that time it has sourced almost all of its ingredients, premises and fit-out from local suppliers, provided employment for thousands of people, paid taxes and offered choices to fast-food consumers that didn't exist before. It has also contributed to significant growth in New Zealand's fast food industry, paving the way for other franchised operators, most of whom are turning a dollar as well.

To blame McDonald's for New Zealand's current fascination with processed fast foods is facile and misleading. There are other more significant drivers of this trend, like diminishing household incomes (in real dollar terms), largely due to left-wing idealists who want us to be all equally poor, backward and oppressed.

What is the crime in economic growth? What is wrong with success? Surely a desirable objective must be to produce a bigger economic "cake" for all New Zealanders, rather than obsessing about "fairly" allocating a cake that gets smaller every year?

Hankering for the good old days when you had to wait half an hour for some greasy spoon proprietor to engineer a Hawaiian burger or heavily club a lump of shark into submission is taking an overly rose-tinted view of those times.

All things in moderation. And let whoever wants to move into New Zealand and ply their trade or craft do so. I hope they're successful in contributing choices profitably and sustainably.

[Robert Taylor]

This Naomi Klein anti-"corporatist" propaganda is nauseatingly irritating.

McDonald's Corporation set itself up in New Zealand almost 30 years ago. In that time it has sourced almost all of its ingredients, premises and fit-out from local suppliers, provided employment for thousands of people, paid taxes and offered choices to fast-food consumers that didn't exist before. It has also contributed to significant growth in New Zealand's fast food industry, paving the way for other franchised operators, most of whom are turning a dollar as well.

To blame McDonald's for New Zealand's current fascination with processed fast foods is facile and misleading. There are other more significant drivers of this trend, like diminishing household incomes (in real dollar terms), largely due to left-wing idealists who want us to be all equally poor, backward and oppressed.

What is the crime in economic growth? What is wrong with success? Surely a desirable objective must be to produce a bigger economic "cake" for all New Zealanders, rather than obsessing about "fairly" allocating a cake that gets smaller every year?

Hankering for the good old days when you had to wait half an hour for some greasy spoon proprietor to engineer a Hawaiian burger or heavily club a lump of shark into submission is taking an overly rose-tinted view of those times.

All things in moderation. And let whoever wants to move into New Zealand and ply their trade or craft do so. I hope they're successful in contributing choices profitably and sustainably.

We have a plethora of people in Parliament that have no business sense and have been closeted in the academic profffessions that are often a little isolated from the real world ( thats being kind ).

So do you wonder at the nonsense that is being spewed forth from that top heavy juggernaut?

The A4 Skyhawks are going to be moved outside of their storage hangers and ''protected'' against the elements by some sort of high tech cling film. And it actually fell out of a ministers mouth that being outside they wont deteriorate! Saddam Hussein was also a harmless everyday family man....

I agree with what you say ''all things in moderation''. Heck it would be possible to have a small number of apolitical PRACTICAL people running the country who are both business friendly ( business generates tax ) and compassionate/ proactive about every citizen having equal opportunity and a decent standard of living. That would involve removing the squandering and thieving bu....it that is happening at opposite ends of the food chain.

[Clockwork]

To blame McDonald's for New Zealand's current fascination with processed fast foods is facile and misleading. There are other more significant drivers of this trend, like diminishing household incomes (in real dollar terms), largely due to left-wing idealists who want us to be all equally poor, backward and oppressed.

But if the politcal right-wing wants us all to be wealthy, educated and free..... who will they get to do all the dirty jobs and work for minimum wage? From where will they get their margin? How will they undercut their competitors?

[Robert Taylor]

But if the politcal right-wing wants us all to be wealthy, educated and free..... who will they get to do all the dirty jobs and work for minimum wage? From where will they get their margin? How will they undercut their competitors?

In summary....''us and them, us and them, us and them........''

Dont we all need to get over this?

[Hitcher]

But if the politcal right-wing wants us all to be wealthy, educated and free..... who will they get to do all the dirty jobs and work for minimum wage? From where will they get their margin? How will they undercut their competitors?

Business success isn't just about undercutting one's competitors. That presumes that people always buy on price. They only do that when there is no other point of differentiation between competing products. Discounting is a fundamentally flawed proposition on so many levels.

The first rule of business is always to stay in business, but there are only two drivers of this: providing outstanding customer service, and constant innovation. Failure to do either will result in business failure at some point.

And "dirty" jobs will always be with us -- like death and taxes. Ultimately the market will determine rates of pay and conditions of employment. Unnecessary regulation foisted on people by the politically correct who obsess about "fairness" will always distort the market, generally to the detriment of those whose livelihoods are depend on those roles.

[Clockwork]

Business success isn't just about undercutting one's competitors. That presumes that people always buy on price. They only do that when there is no other point of differentiation between competing products. Discounting is a fundamentally flawed proposition on so many levels.

Ulimately that's entirley what it comes down to. Even when businesses don't sell at the bottom end of the market they will still look to maximise their bottom line by minimising labour costs...... Nike for instance.

Directors of any company only have a duty to maximise the return to the company's shareholders. That requires selling at the highest price the market will bear and manufacturing for the lowest price available. To act in any other way (without contraint such as laws to protect workers, consumers, environement etc) would be to sell the shareholders short.

[Hitcher]

Directors of any company only have a duty to maximise the return to the company's shareholders.

That should be true, but this goal shouldn't condone blatant exploitation or the taking of an anal short-term view. Most company directors in New Zealand are woeful and have little appreciation about operating sustainably successful businesses. This is hardly surprising, because senior managers in New Zealand are equally woeful. Lack of role models, or managers in roles that are well out of their depth and who have no understanding or appreciation of what constitutes best practice generally means they and their businesses are doomed to continually make the same mistakes they've always made.

I hate short-termism almost as much as I hate managers who blindly implement the "latest" business model without first considering what sort of business they're in and developing a clear and compelling vision of what "success" looks like.

[Ocean1]

Ulimately that's entirley what it comes down to. Even when businesses don't sell at the bottom end of the market they will still look to maximise their bottom line by minimising labour costs...... Nike for instance.

Directors of any company only have a duty to maximise the return to the company's shareholders. That requires selling at the highest price the market will bear and manufacturing for the lowest price available. To act in any other way (without contraint such as laws to protect workers, consumers, environement etc) would be to sell the shareholders short.

??????????

[Clockwork]

??????????

??????????

I'm simply saying that Government has a responsibilty to regulate commerce for the benefit of society. I suspect that makes me a socialist, in part at least.

[Hitcher]

??????????

I'm simply saying that Government has a responsibilty to regulate commerce for the benefit of society. I suspect that makes me a socialist, in part at least.

Depends what you mean by "regulation". Most governments, left-leaning ones in particular, have no understanding of business. Any commercial experience they have comes from running meat raffles, and they have trade unionists in their ears constantly harping about what a pack of pricks business owners are. Consequently that's what underpins their regulatory approach. All businesses want is lower compliance costs and government (at all levels) out of their tills. Is that too much to ask?

[Ocean1]

??????????

I'm simply saying that Government has a responsibilty to regulate commerce for the benefit of society. I suspect that makes me a socialist, in part at least.

Fairy nuff, (to quote Viffer).

I ain't interested in any debate using labels like socialist or capitalist though.

Indulge me while I think out loud if you would, feel free to point out where I get it wrong.

People get their tits in a knot over money, without ever thinking exactly what it is. In order to manipulate anything at all it's vital that you understand the processes involved and the effects different interventions have on those processes.

Money is a unit of value. That's it, nothing more or less, if we didn't have it we'd be trading skills and goods physically. It shouldn't come as any surprise then that money accumulates around entities that have or trade in a high level of skill or valuable goods.

So far so good. Let's introduce the concept of tax. In order to make possible things that individual entities can't or don't do we can collect some of their goods/skills in the form of money. In some cases it's used to make infrastructure that actually helps these entities almost as much as it costs them. In other cases it's a total loss but is seen to be socially important. Some consider all taxation to be theft, and in fact the legal mechanisms that make it possible are unique. Some consider tax should be collected from each equally, and distributed so as to benefit all equally. Some see it as a way to redistribute the money itself, in order that all should have a similar lifestyle. The fundamental difference is one of equity, some require equity of opportunity and some require equity of outcome, regardless of an individual’s commercial value.

A compromise seems inevitable. However, at some point along a line of possible taxation the entities creating the value itself can't support the burden, they struggle to remain healthy. A touch further and they die. There is therefore a point at which growing taxation reduces the number and health of viable commercial entities, and therefore the overall tax taken. In establishing exactly where the point is that gains a government the highest real income it's not a bad idea to ask a financial expert rather than a politician. The answer varies, as you'd expect, but the rates of taxation I've heard suggested by such is in the order of 15% to 20% of overall GDP. Total. The ideal rate varies little between an individual and the various collective groups of individuals called companies.

This level of taxation is supposedly that which gives the government the highest actual spending power. It doesn't, however consider political goals, those motives that largely control voting behaviour. Both incorrect perceptions about how money is made and individual selfishness dictate that political parties which propose policies returning the most money to the highest number of voters will win. That's why overall taxation is some 3 times than that which would produce the best overall result.

The fact that they then fail to deliver on those election promises shouldn't come as any surprise, the function of the policies was to buy votes, not to provide the highest value overall return. This trend is relatively recent, perhaps 25 years, (although some will disagree) and it's one that has substantially reduced the value of the NZ economy, to the detriment of everyone. It's also a zero-sum trend, if it continues it WILL kill the economy dead.

Labels now eh? Socialists make no excuses about the damage they do to value-making entities, they see people in need and they don’t care who suffers in order that help is supplied. The “new right”, in an attempt to buy those very same votes claim to be pruning the apple tree in order to produce more and better apples by cutting it at ground level.

[James Deuce]

The A4 Skyhawks are going to be moved outside of their storage hangers and ''protected'' against the elements by some sort of high tech cling film.

That's actually standard operating procedure at the USAF/USN "boneyard" in Arizona, however there are a certain percentage of aircraft that are maintained at readiness and serviced every 6 months - it's not unusual to see Skyhawks, Prowlers, Intruders, Corsair IIs, F16As (some of them are the ones that were offered to us) and Phantoms running a few circuits. However Arizona is very dry and the soil is a neutral PH. Our Skyhawks have been stored in a much more hostile environment, even indoors, and there is no way anyone will buy them now. They've been unserviceable far too long and simply need to be chopped up for scrap.

[Clockwork]

Depends what you mean by "regulation". Most governments, left-leaning ones in particular, have no understanding of business. Any commercial experience they have comes from running meat raffles, and they have trade unionists in their ears constantly harping about what a pack of pricks business owners are. Consequently that's what underpins their regulatory approach. All businesses want is lower compliance costs and government (at all levels) out of their tills. Is that too much to ask?

You are probably right, Governments are often incompetant when designing rules and regulatons, frequently bureaucratic and inefficient. But I don't think that is just the fault of Governemnt. I work for a Very profitable high street bank, they too have lots of rules and regulations in place to protect themselves from fraud/incompetence/risk etc... From my point of view many of their rules are equally absurd and must be costing the company a fortune. In both cases though, the problem is not the objective but the execution. I don't think business without rules is the solution.

[Clockwork]

...
The fundamental difference is one of equity, some require equity of opportunity and some require equity of outcome, regardless of an individual’s commercial value.

A compromise seems inevitable. ...

Arn't we simply debating where the compromise should lie?

To be honest I see Social welfare as a cross between an insurance policy against rampant crime/civil unrest and an excuse for not being as charitable as perhaps I should be.

[Hitcher]

I don't think business without rules is the solution.

Neither do I. The issues are "what sort of rules?" and "how many are necessary?"

Sounds like your bank could stand a visit from Cardinal Finn and his team of business process inquisitors.

[jrandom]

Sounds like your bank could stand a visit...

Nobody expects the Finnish inquisition!

[Clockwork]

Its probably just a matter of size, I suspect bullshit and bureaucracy increase in proportion to any organisations size.

[Ocean1]

Arn't we simply debating where the compromise should lie?

No, I suggested that the highest value in real terms that a government can acquire is to tax every income at a certain level, supposed to be around 17%. More than that is counterproductive in terms of buying power in that economy, for that government. Taxing above this level is vote-buying behaviour, pure and simple, nothing to do with financial prudence.

WHat you DO with the revenue is the subject of a debate about the above compromise.

[Ocean1]

Its probably just a matter of size, I suspect bullshit and bureaucracy increase in proportion to any organisations size.

Yes: http://www.infohrm.com/documents/articles/Company%20Benchmarks%20on%20the%20Basis%20of%20Org anisational%20Size%20(Nov%201997).pdf

But also the inescapable fact that bureaucracies simply don't need to meet any cost/benefit performance criteria. Any attempt to make them do so snowballs into yet more administrative overhead costs, firstly to define their role and then to measure outcomes. The NZ health industry is overwhelmed with such added cost.

[Hitcher]

Nobody expects the Finnish inquisition!

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jrandom again"

[scumdog]

Nobody expects the Finnish inquisition!

They rock man, the Finnish Commodores with their funny helmets and sailing ships and big swords and shit, man, they showed the Incars a thing or two...

[jrandom]

Finnish Commodores with their funny helmets...

Now that sounds like the model that Highway Patrol should be going for!


they showed the Incars a thing or two...

Serves them right for staying inside their vehicles.

[MisterD]

Its probably just a matter of size, I suspect bullshit and bureaucracy increase in proportion to any organisations size.

As an employee of a veery big globule company (3M stands for meetings, meetings, meetings) I can tell you that you are spot bloody on.

[Grahameeboy]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jrandom again"

Nah, he's a pussy...............

[James Deuce]

As an employee of a veery big globule company (3M stands for meetings, meetings, meetings) I can tell you that you are spot bloody on.
So do you and all the other amoebas form a multi celled mass at these meetings or do you just make a fibrous projection to get in touch with your colleagues?

[Sanx]

<o>Stranger in white/black, idleidolidyll in KTM orange, Sanx in Honda Red.
</o>
<o></o>Way I see it is this.
Macs give us, the consumer, choice, prior to this we had fish & chips.
<o></o>
Not at all: Prior to Macs, we had big juicy burgers and a wide choice from lots of locally owned and run outlets with the profits staying in NZ. I clearly remember the introduction of McD. It was with great fanfare but pretty soon after the initial opening, great burgers started disappearing and we were left with speed and hype as opposed to quality.

Except there is competition. Burger King, KFC, Wendy's and Pizza Hut are all established here and doing well. Obviously these are foreign-owned corporates so you'll dislike them on principle. But then in addition to this, there are little burger and fast(ish) franchises like Burger Fuel, Wisconsin Burger and Hell Pizza. You have small chains of cafes: Cafe Massimmo, Champion Bakehouse and Hollywood would be three such examples in Auckland. We still have choice, and plenty of it. Burger Fuel have found a niche in the market: really good freshly-made burgers, within a reasonable timescale, at a reasonable price. The fact that some of their shops can survive bang-opposite to one of the big American-owned coroporations is proof positive that people are can and do differentiate.

The bring competition. I must admit, I have not done any study on this, but anecdotally I doubt it is much dearer to eat out these days than to shop, purchase, store, prepare and cook your own food and do the dishes etc after. Either way I think it would be hard to dispute that competition does tend to benefit the consumer on a cost basis. Accepted there are other measures, however, given the choices we now have you can soon vote with your feet.
<o></o>
Cost is one measure but to focus only on cost is to miss much of the point. At what cost does the cheap price come? In NZ it meant the closing of awesome little burger bars serving great food for good prices in favour of a product that was cheap but about half the mass. (burgeres before McD’s were much bigger) Add to that the loss of NZ$ to offshore companies and the common practice of McD’s to offer minimum wage (bare minimum using kids as staff) and to actively prevent unionism and the eye they keep on staff abuse etc and the picture becomes a bit clearer.

Do you have any proof of this, or is it mere speculation on your part? Consider your statement that the 'awesome litle burger bars' have closed. Well, if you look around and see all the independent cafes and take-aways open today, you're obviously living in a completely different country. You state that McD's offer minimum wage? Yes, like most companies, they offer the minimum required in order obtain the services they need. But were these little mum and dad places any better? My other half does a lot of translating work, including cases that end up before the disputes tribunal. The vast majority of cases she sees involve immigrants working for less than the legal minimum wage. And they're not working for big evil corporates like McD's; they're working for the same little mum and dad places your referred to with rose-tinted prose.

Macs assembles it's product apparently from materials sourced locally, so a lot of local business profit from supplying milk, meat, breads, packaging, rubbish collection etc etc. Things like achitectural, engineering and IT and construction are of course sourced locally also.
<o></o>
Yep, that’s what they say they do. I won’t argue with that point except to say that they didn’t increase purchases from NZ businesses, they just monopolised them by forcing individually owned businesses out of the market.

Again, have you any proof of this, 'cos it sounds remarkably like krypto-communist claptrap.

So the profits go overseas. Well not all of it. The suppliers presumably profit, the salary and wage earners profit, I am sure the franchisee profits and presumably they all pay some taxes that otherwise would not have been collected. But even with a portion of their turnover going overseas how is this inherently bad.
<o></o>
Yes, local suppliers do profit but they also profited BEFORE McD’s. There IS a nett loss both in tax income and money sent offshore. The ability of big companies to avoid tax or pay minimal tax is well known as is the propensity for governments in NZ to give them tax breaks based on often dubious suggestions that they would add something to NZ.

Again, you're stating that NZ is worse off after McD's without providing one iota of evidence. Your statement relies on the assumption that there's always a fixed amount of money circulating. More sent offshore = less staying in NZ. Well, that's just utter crap. One of the mainstays of NZ's economy is farming. More cows = more meat - more money going to farmers. To make the maths simple, I'm going to make up some numbers by way of example: in the days befor McD's, farmers produced 1,000,000 kilos of meat and sold it for $4,000,000. Since McD's overall demand has increased, so farmers (with the benefit of scientific farming methods and so on) now produce 2,000,000 kilos and sell it for $7,000,000 - as McD's buy in bulk so get a beter price. That's a nett gain, and even allowing for some of the profits of McD's being sent overseas, there's still more money in the domestic economy than there was before.

[Sanx]

??????????

I'm simply saying that Government has a responsibilty to regulate commerce for the benefit of society. I suspect that makes me a socialist, in part at least.

Except that every attempt to completely regulate commerce for the benefit of society has failed abysmally. Without exception, these attempts have been carried out by communist countries: China, the Soviet Union, North Korea, Cambodia, Albania, etc. The government's attempt to take over the entire market failed. In many cases, this led to the collapse of agriculture which in turn led to the starvation of millions of people.

Of course, thase are extreme examples. However, at what level of interference / regulation do you draw the line? Take Ireland, for example. Ireland recently opened up its markets much more, dropped its tax rates and watched investment flood in to the country. The GDP and per-capita income has gone up massively, as has the overall tax take of the country. This is why lowering the tax rate can actually have the knock-on effect of increasing the tax take; 15% of a lot of money is more than 50% of bugger all.

And you talk about benefiting society. In what way? Terms like this are bandied about by all sides of the political specturm and mean very different things. The left-wing view is that all society should benefit. This usually means artificially biasing things towards the lower-paid and less-educated potions of society. There will always be people in society who are only fit for menial jobs, no matter how much education is on offer. But in NZ, people know that they can sit on their arse all day, occasionally breeding, and get as much money as they would if they actually went out and got a job. This is a farcical situation. It penalises the productive members of society and it can be argued that it actually damages society as a whole. People should work for a living if they are capable of doing so. By 'caring for those less fortunate', the government have ensured that a reasonable proportion of society is used to the idea of getting free money. It's the hand-out mentality. If a hand-up was used (including finding paid employment or work for the dole), not only would those of us who currently subsidise this parasitic group feel slightly happier, it would encourage some to find work. To find a niche in which they can make money. And once encouraged, it would become the norm to be employed. Society benefits.

[idleidolidyll]

<center>35% of US Americans Still Support Bush (http://www.bestcyrano.org/THOMASPAINE/?p=362)


by Jason Miller (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0710/S00141.htm#a)
Cluster B Personality Disorders
1776.0 Americanistic Personality Disorder

</center>The essential features of Americanistic Personality Disorder include pervasive patterns of extreme self-absorption, profound and long-term lapses in empathy, a deep disregard for the well-being of others, a powerful aversion to intellectual honesty and reality, and a grossly exaggerated sense of the importance of one’s self and one’s nation. These patterns emerge in infancy, manifest themselves in nearly all contexts, and often become pathological.
These patterns have also been characterized as sociopathic, or colloquially as the “Ugly American Syndrome.” Note that the latter terminology carries too benign a connotation to accurately describe an individual afflicted with such a dangerous perversion of character.
For this diagnosis to be given, the individual must be deeply immersed in the flag-waving, nationalistic, and militaristic fervor derived primarily from the nearly perpetual barrage of reality warping emanations of the “mainstream media,” most commonly through the medium of television. Typically indoctrinated from birth to believe that they are morally superior, exceptional human beings, these individuals suffer from severe egocentrism, a condition further engendered by the prevalence of the acutely toxic dominant paradigm known as capitalism.
Individuals with Americanistic Personality Disorder are generally covertly racist, xenophobic, and openly speciesistic. They readily participate in the execution of heinous crimes against human and non-human animals, even if their complicity is banal and limited. As long as they are comfortable, safe, and enjoying the relative affluence and convenience afforded by their nation’s economic extortion, cultural genocide, rape of other species and the environment, and imperial conquests, such individuals display an apathetic disregard for the well-being of other human beings, sentient creatures, and the environment.
Individuals with Americanistic Personality Disorder tend to exhibit unabated greed and an insatiable desire for material goods. Fueled by a compulsion to shop and acquire excessive amounts of material goods, a condition sometimes referred to as consumerism, they have no regard for the misery and destruction caused by their pathological need for “more stuff”. When confronted with the finitude and fragility of the Earth, they frequently react with level one ego defenses by denying that their behavior is a part of the problem or by distorting reality by asserting that concerns about Climate Change, resource depletion, and irreversible damage to the environment are over-blown. Their deeply entrenched sense of entitlement renders excessive consumption a nearly immutable aspect of their behavior.
Individuals with Americanistic Personality Disorder are virtually devoid of empathy or compassion. They view life as a game played by “law of the jungle” rules and co-exist with others in a chronic state of hyper-competitiveness, seeking only to advance their careers and “keep up with the Joneses” Their desire to win, get ahead and “protect what is theirs” has been so deeply etched into their psyches that their capacity to empathize and experience true concern for the well-being of others is severely stunted or extinguished. The pursuit of property, profit, and power rules their malformed psyches, nearly eliminating their capacity for humane behavior.
Individuals with Americanistic Personality Disorder almost always rely on extortion or violence to get their needs met and to resolve conflict. Believing in their inherent superiority, they eschew laws or rules except when they can utilize them for personal gain or when they fear punishment. Given a choice between a just resolution to a situation and the opportunity to humiliate, subdue, or subjugate the other party, they will choose the latter with a high degree of frequency. They have an amazing capacity to justify their unethical or criminal behavior using false pretexts such as self defense, good intentions, ignorance of the consequences of their actions, or asserting that they were merely carrying out orders.
Individuals with Americanistic Personality Disorder tend to manifest traits indicative of two of Erich Fromm’s personality orientations. They thrive on adding to their possessions (and appreciate their acquisitions more) when they attain them through coercion, theft, or manipulation, thus showing strains of Fromm’s exploitative type. They also exist at a very superficial level, offering the world the “friendly face” of the marketing personality that Bernays and Madison Avenue have taught them is the most effective way of advancing their selfish agenda. Opportunism, careerism, and narcissism poison nearly all of their interactions and relationships.
Specific Culture Features
Americanistic Personality Disorder appears to prevail in a very high percentage of those in the upper strata of the socioeconomic order in the United States (and to persist tenaciously because these individuals have little motivation to alter their pathological behavior as they are largely immune from the consequences of their actions). While it is epidemic amongst the opulent, this characterological deficiency does not recognize socioeconomic boundaries. Various segments of the middle, working and impoverished classes comprise a notable percentage of those exhibiting this condition, including those practicing deeply conservative Christianity, many residents of reactionary states such as those in the south, Kansas, Idaho, Utah, and Wyoming, and many members of the Republican Party.
Prevalence
The overall prevalence of Americanistic Personality Disorder was recently measured at approximately 35% of the overall population in the United States.
Diagnostic Criteria for 1776.0 Americanistic Personality Disorder:
A pervasive pattern of greed, selfishness, and lack of empathy, beginning the moment he or she begins to intellectualize and presented in nearly all contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
1. lacks empathy due to an excessive degree of self-absorption
2. believes that he or she is exceptional and morally superior
3. frequently engages in exploitative behaviors
4. requires frequent acquisition of goods he or she doesn’t need
5. usually resorts to some form of overt or covert violence, coercion, or extortion to resolve conflicts
6. perceives others as obstacles to his or her “success”
7. disregards laws and rules except as a means to achieve his or her agenda
8. demonstrates deep hypocrisy by projecting a righteous, benevolent image while committing reprehensible acts
9. refuses to accept the consequences of his or her actions

[idleidolidyll]

IMO, many here exhibit the very same disorder.................

[idleidolidyll]

Going hand in hand with extreme capitalism is often fascism and the model nation many here seem to think we should follow has already descended into that hell:

<center> American Lockdown: Law Enforcement Out Of Control and Beyond The Pale


By Carolyn Baker (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0710/S00131.htm#a)

</center>In my recent article "The End Of America: The Police State Is Right Here, Right Now (http://carolynbaker.net/site/content/view/135/3)" I included experiences of escalating intimidation on the part of law enforcement in the United States within recent months. I must confess that when I cite such incidents, I fear that in a few days or weeks, it will all go away, and everyone else, myself included, will begin to question the validity of the examples, breathing a heavy sigh of relief and rejoicing that the situation isn't nearly as dire as I'm asserting it is.
This time, however, I have nothing to fear because since that article was posted, the ante of out-of-control law enforcement in America appears to have been upped with a rapidity that I could not have imagined just a few weeks ago.
Have we not all heard about the New York woman on her way to rehab who passed through the Phoenix airport, became distraught when she had just missed her flight, and was arrested for disorderly conduct by airport police? The suspect, Carol Ann Gotbaum, was handcuffed and then placed in a holding cell and left alone. According to police, when they returned, she was dead. At this writing, Gotbaum's family and officials are awaiting the autopsy report-the "official" cause of death.
Just a few days later, again in Phoenix, a male suspect was handcuffed (http://www.kpho.com/news/14271469/detail.html?rss=pho&psp=news) after an on-foot chase by police, and shortly after being handcuffed, according to police, he lost consciousness. He was then taken to a local hospital where he was pronounced dead.
In today's New York Daily News, the story "Science teacher's brush with police ends in heart attack (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime_file/2007/10/08/2007-10-08_science_teachers_brush_with_police_ends_.html)" relates an incident that happened back in June of this year when an African American Brooklyn high school teacher was mistaken for a perpetrator by police, suffered a heart attack, and was left on his own by the street cops who accused him of "acting."
As outrageous as these incidents may be, the most chilling event appeared on networks across the nation this morning with the story (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21181488) of a twenty year-old Wisconsin sheriff's deputy who shot and killed six young people at a party Saturday night. The most obvious question: How is it that a community of citizens allows a twenty year-old to become a deputy sheriff? Why not give an M-16 to a third-grader?
Nevertheless, all of these stories are connected by a common thread: Law enforcement in the United States, whose duty it is to "protect and serve" have now become not just part of the problem but in fact, predatory devourers of those they are sworn to keep safe.
Deepening collapse will be attended by manifestations of the unraveling of all institutions, one of the most frightening examples being law enforcement's hysterical repression of citizens.
Although we are seeing more media attention given to private security companies such as Blackwater, we should not assume that the power and funding granted to these firms will dissipate anytime soon. They are an integral part of the Shock Doctrine (http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine/short-film) brilliantly analyzed by Naomi Klein in her new book of the same title. The greater the extent of the empire's collapse, the greater the intensity of the shock applied to those who reside within the belly of the beast. From those shocks flow not only increased terror and social control, but flourishing profits for private security companies.
The U.S. government is making it unmistakably clear that it intends to use every avenue of power at its disposal to lock down the nation. A story sent to my subscribers (http://www.gata.org/node/5606) today from the Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee (GATA) reveals that in its correspondence with the Treasury Department "The Treasury Department was surprisingly candid in that correspondence, asserting the U.S. Government's authority, in declared emergencies, to confiscate precious metals and to restrict ownership of mining shares -- and to confiscate and restrict every other financial asset as well."
Almost daily we hear of increased surveillance of Americans as well as unprecedented restrictions on travel, not only on persons entering the U.S. but on persons traveling within the country and on dissenters who attempt to enter other countries as in the case of two activists (http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=3d25cabf-3bcc-4bea-b607-7d5967c82397&k=66185), Medea Benjamin and Ann Wright who were denied entrance into Canada on Thursday "because their names appeared on the FBI's National Crime Information Center database."
Another relevant story (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=6992) relinked today pertains to the anti-terrorism Vigilant Shield 2008 exercise of U.S. Northern Command (USNORTHCOM) "The series of exercises is mandated by the US government to prepare, prevent and respond to any number of national crises that would call for the use of the military inside the United States. Vigilant Shield 2008 builds a scenario of a domestic disaster in the US (terrorist attack or natural disaster). It posits the domestic use of the US military including a special role for the US Air Force." As we know, a precedent for using the U.S. military inside the U.S. was set in the aftermath of Katrina in 2005.
For those considering expatriation, it will soon be too late to leave. For those who choose to remain within this increasingly locked down nation, it will be necessary to acquire survival skills, a strong community of friends, and a great deal of stealth in order to navigate this empire's exacerbating Orwellian treachery.

[idleidolidyll]

No, I suggested that the highest value in real terms that a government can acquire is to tax every income at a certain level, supposed to be around 17%. More than that is counterproductive in terms of buying power in that economy, for that government. Taxing above this level is vote-buying behaviour, pure and simple, nothing to do with financial prudence.

WHat you DO with the revenue is the subject of a debate about the above compromise.

Hilarious stuff Ocean!

The fact is, for the low waged, 17% is not much more than they pay now and tax 'cuts' to 17% would give them only a few tens of dollars each week extra.

However, without a tax take to support public and social services, these will be privatised and from their limited incomes, they will be expected to pay insurance to cover many more social services and will have to pay extra through things like road taxes etc.

In the US, private medicine and privatisation of the health industry has left some 40 million people without adequate health cover because they can't afford the exhorbitant prices that unchecked capitalism demands. The actual cost for medical services per capita has also ballooned to the extent that the cost to each and every Yank for medical services is about US$2800 per annum while in NZ the cost is about US$1600. For Yanks who DO pay all their insurances (those lucky ones who can afford it), this amounts to perhaps US$600-1000 per month.
No amount of tax cuts in NZ would make those kinds of increases of service and social costs affordable.
Capitalism without restraint always devolves into neo-serfdom as companies squeeze the government for more rights to fuck over the population as per the USA where decades of legislation has given corporations way more rights and power than people. They have been turned into superhumans with all the 'rights' of human beings but few to none of the responsibilities or ounishments if they do wrong.

You've said in the past that we should rely more on charity. The right wing 'model', Amerika, also has lower taxes and limited public and social services and they too suggest that 'charity' is the way to go.

In fact this leads immediately to REDUCTIONS in funding. That is not more clearly evidenced by the fact that the USA is the most miserable of all developed nations giving only 0.18% of it's GDP in foreign aid as opposed to more socialist nations like those in Nth West Europe where 0.7% is more common.

The Liberatrian nonsense claiming that so called 'personal responsibility' will work ignores such facts and tries to sell itself on lower taxes and less government. The fact is, this system is only of benefit to those who are already wealthy.

[Clockwork]

No, I suggested that the highest value in real terms that a government can acquire is to tax every income at a certain level, supposed to be around 17%. More than that is counterproductive in terms of buying power in that economy, for that government. Taxing above this level is vote-buying behaviour, pure and simple, nothing to do with financial prudence.

WHat you DO with the revenue is the subject of a debate about the above compromise.

Sounds good Ocean, can you show me an example of an economy taxing at this level and still providing equality of opportunity including access to health care and education? Sanx cites Ireland as a possible example but I'm not sure this would work for NZ.

I admit don't know much about Ireland's economics but I understand they have beneifited enormously from EEC subsidies and the reason they are currently popular with investors is that manufacturing in Ireland gives you instant access to the enormous EEC market. Presumably if they are taxing less than the other EEC member states they are effectively cheating the system (level playing field an' all that). The fact that multi-nationals are prepared to exploit that for profit really isn't that surprising.

Also, should NZ cut its tax rates, (and it would take a substantial cut to make any material difference to my life style) what's going to happen to inflation and why is it that the political right only considiers Government spending to be inflationary?

[Clockwork]

Except that every attempt to completely regulate commerce for the benefit of society has failed abysmally. Without exception, these attempts have been carried out by communist countries: China, the Soviet Union, North Korea, Cambodia, Albania, etc. The government's attempt to take over the entire market failed. In many cases, this led to the collapse of agriculture which in turn led to the starvation of millions of people.

Of course, thase are extreme examples. However, at what level of interference / regulation do you draw the line? ...

Extreme examples yes. And the extremes at the other end are just as offensive. An example that springs to mind, India, a booming economy. I suspect the market will be about as free there as anywhere. I'd be as well equipped as most to survive quite comfortably there but, no thanks. You don't see too many others rushing to get in either.

Benefits to society? Well to put it simply I don't want to have to step over beggars in the street and live behind a barberd wire fence; or witness starving children or sick and dying/neglected elderly as I drive past in my air conditioned Merc on my way to my favorite resturant. Now I'm not saying these things don't exist in NZ but at least when I go to bed at night I can convince myself that it's not due to some lack of contribution on my part!

[Finn]

Some fine capitalism in action....

One News had an excellent informative and non hysterical item last tonight on how the NSW Labour Government has allowed the private sector to build and maintain schools, and lease them back to schools on a thirty year lease to own arrangement.

It’s proven so good in NSW, other states are taking it up.

What works so well for the schools, is they have a service level agreement with the owners, with financial penalties. So the school is freed up to concentrate on the core task of educating students, and the private business takes care of the maintenance etc.

If graffiti lasts for more than an hour, the owner is penalised. Likewise if more than x toilets are not working, they get fine. So the building owner has a real incentive to provide first class service.

And the state auditor-general has calculated this partnerships will save the taxpayer $60 million.

So you have one party which says, hey if this model worked in NSW we’ll be at least open minded enough to try it and use it if it will result in better schools for our kids, at less cost.

And you have another party which swears they would rather die first than allow this to happen.

So which party is concerned about kids and which party is concerned about votes?

[Ocean1]

Sounds good Ocean, can you show me an example of an economy taxing at this level and still providing equality of opportunity including access to health care and education? Sanx cites Ireland as a possible example but I'm not sure this would work for NZ.

I admit don't know much about Ireland's economics but I understand they have beneifited enormously from EEC subsidies and the reason they are currently popular with investors is that manufacturing in Ireland gives you instant access to the enormous EEC market. Presumably if they are taxing less than the other EEC member states they are effectively cheating the system (level playing field an' all that). The fact that multi-nationals are prepared to exploit that for profit really isn't that surprising.

Also, should NZ cut its tax rates, (and it would take a substantial cut to make any material difference to my life style) what's going to happen to inflation and why is it that the political right only considiers Government spending to be inflationary?


I didn’t suggest that taxing at an optimum economic level would produce equity of any sort. Nothing will, the notion that equity can exist in any form at all is a concept as flawed as that which sees cash as being available from other than productive effort.

What I did suggest is that if a government wished to realise the highest level of funds available to spend on anything at all then they should be taxing at that rate. Is it so hard to understand? Taxing at current levels produces substantially LESS income for the government, and damages both the providers and those who’s lot is attempted to be “equified”.

The only possible root source of income for anyone is the primary production of marketable goods. Everything else is secondary, even those industries supplying support to manufacturers can trace their income back to actual hard product. Have you any idea how much primary productive manufacturing is left in NZ? Outside the agricultural industry, fuck all. Our accelerating slide down the performance charts of the OECD shouldn’t come as much of a surprise then eh? If you wonder why Ireland is doing so well look at their new primary production base, and then look at the economic policies that made it happen.

Access to health care, education and any other services used by all is exactly the expenditure I personally consider a valid reason to tax in the first place. Any entity smaller than a national government doesn’t have the resources to do it, and the services so funded are not a disincentive to economic interests because it’s a cost they would otherwise have to wear themselves anyway. Public spending on infrastructure is also good for the economic health of everyone, (commercial interests included), to a greater or lesser extent.

Tax used for the support of the disabled and infirm is a total loss, but it’s a social responsibility 99% of the country would agree is worthwhile. However, when huge drains such as current social policy and the tax required to drive them are placed on the only source of funds available then those productive entities inevitably stop producing wealth, and therefore taxable revenue. Redistributing cash in an attempt to create an equity of lifestyle is simplistic, anile bullshit. Even when the economy is cold and dead some will find a way to eat and some won’t.

[James Deuce]

Tax used for the support of the disabled and infirm is a total loss, but it’s a social responsibility 99% of the country would agree is worthwhile.

Back when personal responsibility was a given that may have been true. I suspect that if pushed, most people would support compulsory in-utero genetic screening followed up with compulsory abortions for any defect that will cost the state money. The tax spend in that area is decreasing and an ever increasing number of arguments are being pumped out at Government level and propagated through social, education, and health services as to why it is unfair on society in general to support those pesky retards.

Want your intellectually challenged child to go to a mainstream school? No worries so long as you pay the teacher's aide's wages.

Want the same level of health care as "normal" people? Be prepared to take consultants to the NZ Medical Council (with financial backup from the Royal College of Surgeons in the UK) for a disciplinary hearing when they suggest not treating your child's pneumonia - you know, socially acceptable euthanasia.

Don't make me laugh, most policy setters are trying to eliminate "social burdens", as it is "unfair" to expect society to look after them.

Meanwhile the harder I work, the more tax I pay. The more tax I pay the less access I have to the benefits that we're "entitled" to.

[Clockwork]

Redistributing cash in an attempt to create an equity of lifestyle is simplistic, anile bullshit. Even when the economy is cold and dead some will find a way to eat and some won’t.

I didn't advocate equity of "lifestyle", equity of outcome is the term you used earlier I believe. But I do want to see equity of opportunity including access to health care and education, and yes I accept that too many waste that opportunity and then expect society to carry them. And we probably do make life too comfortable for some of these people but as I've said, I don't much like the other end of the spectrum either and I can't trust the unfettered "market" to create any society that I would want to live in.

Anyhoo.... I'm away this weekend, maybe there will still be enough momentum in this trhread to keep it going while I'm away. seeya

[davereid]

...
The only possible root source of income for anyone is the primary production of marketable goods. Everything else is secondary, even those industries supplying support to manufacturers can trace their income back to actual hard product. Have you any idea how much primary productive manufacturing is left in NZ? Outside the agricultural industry, fuck all. Our accelerating slide down the performance charts of the OECD shouldn’t come as much of a surprise then eh?

This of course is the reason for our problems... we tax, levy and burden the productive with a million rules, regulations and bits of paper to fill out.

And then , because we are worried about how poor we are, we fix it by putting the minimum adult wage up, and giving everyone 4 weeks holidays. (Plus 5 sick days and 11 stat. days, and 104 weekend days.)

Surprise surprise when inflation starts to become a headache.

[davereid]

Tax used for the support of the disabled and infirm is a total loss, but it’s a social responsibility 99% of the country would agree is worthwhile.

Only if they think its someone elses money. Offer a check box on your payslip..

A= Pay for social welfare
B= Don't pay for it

and see if 99% really support it.

[Grahameeboy]

Tax used for the support of the disabled and infirm is a total loss,
..............

Not to the disabled / infirm it is not............

[idleidolidyll]

..............

Not to the disabled / infirm it is not............

that doesn't matter a bit to these heartless inhuman bastards

of course the moment they were damaged and in need of a hand out their whining would change rapidly

[Grahameeboy]

that doesn't matter a bit to these heartless inhuman bastards

of course the moment they were damaged and in need of a hand out their whining would change rapidly

Unless you were born with a disability I guess

[davereid]

that doesn't matter a bit to these heartless inhuman bastards

Please stop assuming that you have to be a socialist to care about others, and that socialists have some special monopoly on compassion.

The difference is that capitalists care for others with their own money.

Socialists think its OK to use violence to take money off others to use for their generosity.

Its an easy way to appear to be generous and compassionate. As long as you can overlook the use of force.

[Ocean1]

Only if they think its someone elses money. Offer a check box on your payslip..

A= Pay for social welfare
B= Don't pay for it

and see if 99% really support it.

There's been a couple of surveys about tax and public services in general I found interesting. Of two that I read years ago both offered various options on taxation and public services. Both demonstrated a significant gulf between what was seen to be acceptable taxation and what was considered a minimum public service level. One however was not a blind survey, subjects were able to see what outcomes their selected options produced in real time, and they were free to change any of them. The bit that interested me was that there was a 20% odd failure rate, subjects simply refused to complete the survey when their choices didn't produce the outcome they wanted. The failure of some to accept facts and make effective cost/benefit decisions is not, apparently, limited to the real world.


..............

Not to the disabled / infirm it is not............

Still beating your wife dude? Yes or No?

[idleidolidyll]

Please stop assuming that you have to be a socialist to care about others, and that socialists have some special monopoly on compassion.

The difference is that capitalists care for others with their own money.

Socialists think its OK to use violence to take money off others to use for their generosity.

Its an easy way to appear to be generous and compassionate. As long as you can overlook the use of force.

No assumption is necessary, all I have to do is read the heartless posts of the fascists here to KNOW they don't give a damn or, at best, are ignorant of the problems faced by other people.

[idleidolidyll]

The difference is that capitalists care for others with their own money.

Socialists think its OK to use violence to take money off others to use for their generosity.



Oh dear, ignorance is bliss indeed. My message 432 sums up that kind of attitude.

Capitalists DON'T care much at all except for money, they are more concerned about returning a profit to their shareholders than they are about those fucked over by their policies.

As for your second point; the worst abuser on the planet today is the USA. Since 1990 it has killed or created conditions that have killed up to 4 million Iraqis. It killed 2-4 million Vietnamese, millions of Koreans ad infinitum.

The fact is that capitalism without the restraints of socialism quickly becomes abusive and preys on the weak and poor. Essentially US capitalism props itself up ONLY through violence and theit Military is in fact nothing less than a corporate army.

[Grahameeboy]

Still beating your wife dude? Yes or No?

Nah, she was no fun she just up and left...........

[Ocean1]

No assumption is necessary, all I have to do is read the heartless posts of the fascists here to KNOW they don't give a damn or, at best, are ignorant of the problems faced by other people.

Do try to pay attention dude, I offered you a way to gain more resources to help those facing genuine hardship and I'm heartless? You and your ilk have mauled the hand that feeds the poor to the bone and you continue to complain that dinner's not up to scratch. All you offer is a belaboured and hackneyed attack on the successful and the responsible in an attempt to lower them to some hypothetical mediocre median. Have you any idea how little of NZ’s revenue is siphoned offshore by the multi-nationals you despise? A pittance compared to the tax they pay, and that pales into insignificance compared to the tax the average working kiwi contributes.

[Ocean1]

Nah, she was no fun she just up and left...........

Peace dude. Sticks and stones aren't the only weapons to be wary of, don't quote me out of context eh?

[Grahameeboy]

Peace dude. Sticks and stones aren't the only weapons to be wary of, don't quote me out of context eh?

Haha.........there was peace before, just a bit of fun.....you should know me by now.....:lol:

[Robert Taylor]

No assumption is necessary, all I have to do is read the heartless posts of the fascists here to KNOW they don't give a damn or, at best, are ignorant of the problems faced by other people.

''Being the heartless capitalist / fascist that I am I have been away for a few days preying on the unsuspecting masses.'' The conundrum being that the suspension components I import are made in one of the most Socialist and over-regulated countries in the world, so they are a little more expensive than they otherwise could be. But I have still made ( some ) money out of this and that is evil! Having now briefly skimmed over the further succession of posts I am amazed at how ''BIG'' this thread has become.

But a constant theme is ''us and them'' / polarisation.

Socialism in practice has proven to be seriously flawed because it rapes capitalism and the will to work. But equally, unchecked capitalism ( eg our under-regulated free market ) is equally flawed. That we have a seriously flawed cocktail of the two is undeniable.

Notwithstanding the flaws of human nature, there is no reason we cannot have a capitalist society with both low taxes, appropriate controls and social responsibility all rolled into one.

I think we can all consume a much more agreable cocktail beneficial to ALL.

[Finn]

''Being the heartless capitalist / fascist that I am I have been away for a few days preying on the unsuspecting masses.'' The conundrum being that the suspension components I import are made in one of the most Socialist and over-regulated countries in the world, so they are a little more expensive than they otherwise could be.

There is still hope for Sweden Robert. They recently elected a young (male) right wing prime minister. Let's hope we follow their path. It does look promising.

If you need help with anything in Sweden, let me know.

[Robert Taylor]

There is still hope for Sweden Robert. They recently elected a young (male) right wing prime minister. Let's hope we follow their path. It does look promising.

If you need help with anything in Sweden, let me know.

Yes thanks Finn, I was aware of that happy event but just hope that he has both the mandate and intestinal fortitude to change the pervasive ''world owes me a living'' attitude that socialism perpetuates. Ditto for Sarkozy in France. And David Cameron in England has just made a devastating speech and low tax policy announcements propelling the Tories into the lead in the opinion polls. There is hope yet...

I have been to Sweden approx 8 times now and can testify that it has VERY high levels of taxation for cradle to the grave welfare. That means day to day consumer goods are VERY expensive.

And oh, they absorbed a great number of Moslem refugees from the last Balkans conflict, and have their own festering immigrant problems through the unwillingness of many to integrate.

[Goblin]

Notwithstanding the flaws of human nature...

I think we can all consume a much more agreable cocktail beneficial to ALL.The flaws of human nature being greed.:devil2:

Salut! :drinkup::drinkup: Bottoms up!:drinknsin

[Robert Taylor]

The flaws of human nature being greed.:devil2:

Salut! :drinkup::drinkup: Bottoms up!:drinknsin

You got that in one, and the Socialists that worm their way to the top are just as guilty.

[idleidolidyll]

You got that in one, and the Socialists that worm their way to the top are just as guilty.

sometimes but not usually. the modern 'socialist states' are models of fairness and high standards and regularly top the most worthwhile charts internationally for the likes of satisfaction, quality of life, personal freedom, press freedom etc etc.

The favourite model of the right wing, Amerika, is usually some 20-30 places behind and often the massive gap between rich and poor skews results giving a more rosy picture than is deserved.

power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely

the greatest corruption on the planet at present is corporate control of US policy, a control used in a way that makes their 'democracy' a complete and utter sham.

As i've said a number of times here, the indicator for abuse within a system is not the left/right index but the disposition or shift toward fascism.
Virtually all major abusers in government have been extreme authoritarians and that is just as valid in Pinochet and Bush as it is in Mao and Stalin.

BTW: The National Party of NZ is significantly fascist but not yet as bad as the Yanks. If they manage to gain an absolute majority next elections, I have no doubt they will move a big step toward the Yanks and extreme fascism.

Expect more truly odious legislation like the Employment Contracts Act which took put virtual dictatorship power into the hands of corporates and played a significant part in driving NZ wages down along with the average persons lifestyle.

[idleidolidyll]

Yes thanks Finn, I was aware of that happy event but just hope that he has both the mandate and intestinal fortitude to change the pervasive ''world owes me a living'' attitude that socialism perpetuates. Ditto for Sarkozy in France. And David Cameron in England has just made a devastating speech and low tax policy announcements propelling the Tories into the lead in the opinion polls. There is hope yet...

I have been to Sweden approx 8 times now and can testify that it has VERY high levels of taxation for cradle to the grave welfare. That means day to day consumer goods are VERY expensive.

And oh, they absorbed a great number of Moslem refugees from the last Balkans conflict, and have their own festering immigrant problems through the unwillingness of many to integrate.

good grief what nonsense!

"''world owes me a living'' attitude that socialism perpetuates" hilarious seeing the usual fallacies instead of rational debate. It shows the opposition have nothing but childish propaganda.
personal observations indicate to me that capitalists are every bit as likely to have that very same attitude.

That's typical Yank propaganda though and I'm not surprised the right wingers here suck it down so easily; they seem to lack the skill to investigate deeper than the propaganda level.

Yes, some of those socialist countries have high tax rates indeed and Denmark is said to be the highest at close to 50% flat. However, despite those tax rates, the people self report as extremely happy and contented and the countries themselves regularly top the charts for all worthwhile quality of life indicators.

The right wing focus on tax is nothing but a smoke screen designed to remove all state support and place it in the hands of private industry where it will be served up with a big spoon of propaganda and ever inflating costs.

Past US governments used tax cuts to destroy social welfare and state funding to such an extent that it was 'deemed' impossible to do anything but place it in the hands of corporations. Now they have creationism being taught as science, 40 million people without adequate health care, a dumbed down population scared to speak in public and a leader close to declaring a black flag state of emergency and crowning himself emperor.

If that's the model you want to live under, I suggest you go to Yankland and live the nightmare for a while. That's NOT what makes NZ a great place to live, that's what will destroy NZ.

[scumdog]

Expect more truly odious legislation like the Employment Contracts Act which took put virtual dictatorship power into the hands of corporates and played a significant part in driving NZ wages down along with the average persons lifestyle.

Never mind, those not getting paid enough will just go on 'the benefit' - which those still working pay for.
Somehow it doesn't seem like THAT would work though eh?

I find it hard to believe 'odious legislation' and 'corporates' have driven wages and the average persons lifestyle down.

The biggest effect on the 'average' Kiwi would be spiraling property prices and the comensurate large mortgage.
Mostly created by overseas buyers and property developing individuals - NOT corporates and odious legislation.

[idleidolidyll]

Do try to pay attention dude, I offered you a way to gain more resources to help those facing genuine hardship and I'm heartless? You and your ilk have mauled the hand that feeds the poor to the bone and you continue to complain that dinner's not up to scratch. All you offer is a belaboured and hackneyed attack on the successful and the responsible in an attempt to lower them to some hypothetical mediocre median. Have you any idea how little of NZ’s revenue is siphoned offshore by the multi-nationals you despise? A pittance compared to the tax they pay, and that pales into insignificance compared to the tax the average working kiwi contributes.

No, you merely made some ridiculous flippant comments that I saw through as if they were glass or water.
At least you're almost honest in your desire to fuck over the less powerful and place massive power in the hands of those already haves.

It is notable that you still refrain (like John Key) from offering solutions instead merely usung fallacious arguments to attack existing policy or the suggestions of others.

Perhaps, since you raised the issue, you could offer numbers instead of opinion.

How much EXTRA tax DO these foreign companies pay and at the expense of how many NZ companies who go out of business because of them and would have also paid tax but WITHOUT sending profits offshore and driving down NZ incomes?
While you're at it, instead of offering mere numbers, give us an analysis of the social benefits and disadvantages of having those foreign corporates in NZ.

I won't be holding my breath.......................

[NighthawkNZ]

Never mind, those not getting paid enough will just go on 'the benefit' - which those still working pay for.
Somehow it doesn't seem like THAT would work though eh?

I find it hard to believe 'odious legislation' and 'corporates' have driven wages and the average persons lifestyle down.

The biggest effect on the 'average' Kiwi would be spiraling property prices and the comensurate large mortgage.
Mostly created by overseas buyers and property developing individuals - NOT corporates and odious legislation.

hasn't drive wages down... but my wages has kept up with inflation ... and yes the price of houses hasn't helped...

[idleidolidyll]

Never mind, those not getting paid enough will just go on 'the benefit' - which those still working pay for.
Somehow it doesn't seem like THAT would work though eh?

I find it hard to believe 'odious legislation' and 'corporates' have driven wages and the average persons lifestyle down.

The biggest effect on the 'average' Kiwi would be spiraling property prices and the comensurate large mortgage.
Mostly created by overseas buyers and property developing individuals - NOT corporates and odious legislation.

opinions are like arseholes scumdog; thanks for offering yours.

sure, mortgage rate increases are largely a result of foreign action or a fixation on inflation that seems to benefit foreign traders and currency raiders more than it does Kiwis (under the Reserve Bank Act): do you think National will lessen this it exacerbate it?

The ever decreasing real wages of Kiwis however is NOT a function of mortagage debt, it is a function of successive governments selling out to Milton Friedmanist economic policies. All across the globe, Yank and Euro controlled institutions, particularly the IMF and World Bank who use corruption, bullying and blackmail to take control of whole economies in order to channel income from those nations to the US or Europe. That has left resource rich nations unable to provide for their citizens. This all in the name of Capitalism of course.

As an International Sales Manager competing for said funding (IMF, World Bank) out of Singapore, I experienced this corruption personally. The competition for such funding comes with political strings attached and massive amounts of money is channeled to those who support the system. Suharto of Indonesia is a prime case. His people are still paying the debt to those international capitalists that their corrupt leader abused in order to secure billions for himself, his family and his friends. Most of those 'friends' are STILL living the high life on that money while the ordinary citizen pays the bill and works for the likes of Nike as modern day serfs.

[idleidolidyll]

hasn't drive wages down... but my wages has kept up with inflation ... and yes the price of houses hasn't helped...

real income today is way behind the real income of 20-30 years ago.

how many ordinary middle class families today could raise 5 children on one ordinary wage?

even the same jobs have barely increased in absolute terms, as a salesman in the mid eighties I earned about $80k a year. I recently inquired into the same work in the same industry and discovered that the typical remuneration had dropped to $60-70K.

As a motorcycle salesman in 1987 I earned about the same. What does a motorcycle salesman earn today?

[scumdog]

Ah well, me & NightHawk wil just have to suffer our 'ever decreasing wages' as we fritter away our money while riding bikes, going overseas and buying expensive toys and properties I guess.......

I'm just a pleb who is unaware of the 'bigger picture' and just wants to enjoy what he has.

The worrying I will leave to the likes of you.

[Robert Taylor]

good grief what nonsense!

"''world owes me a living'' attitude that socialism perpetuates" hilarious seeing the usual fallacies instead of rational debate. It shows the opposition have nothing but childish propaganda.
personal observations indicate to me that capitalists are every bit as likely to have that very same attitude.

That's typical Yank propaganda though and I'm not surprised the right wingers here suck it down so easily; they seem to lack the skill to investigate deeper than the propaganda level.

Yes, some of those socialist countries have high tax rates indeed and Denmark is said to be the highest at close to 50% flat. However, despite those tax rates, the people self report as extremely happy and contented and the countries themselves regularly top the charts for all worthwhile quality of life indicators.

The right wing focus on tax is nothing but a smoke screen designed to remove all state support and place it in the hands of private industry where it will be served up with a big spoon of propaganda and ever inflating costs.

Past US governments used tax cuts to destroy social welfare and state funding to such an extent that it was 'deemed' impossible to do anything but place it in the hands of corporations. Now they have creationism being taught as science, 40 million people without adequate health care, a dumbed down population scared to speak in public and a leader close to declaring a black flag state of emergency and crowning himself emperor.

If that's the model you want to live under, I suggest you go to Yankland and live the nightmare for a while. That's NOT what makes NZ a great place to live, that's what will destroy NZ.

I think that you are clearly reading propaganda yourself, it is not too late for you to learn a wider perspective. BTW, going to the States next week. The biggest problem there is as a New Zealander I will be treated like a leper through immigration BECAUSE of Helen Clark. And btw, have you been to Sweden recently and spoken to everyday folk there?

Maybe you should spend more time getting out in the real world and put down that copy of ''The life and times of Chairman Mao'' I have no doubt that you are a likable fellow and that I could readily have a beer with you but man you have got some serious lefty issues!

[MisterD]

how many ordinary middle class families today could raise 5 children on one ordinary wage?



At the rate we have to fund Labour's social engineering policies, not many...plus people didn't used to think that takeaways, the latest fashions and plasma TV's were essential to their existences.

How many people make (or even mend) their own clothes or grow their own veggies these days? Generation Y don't even seem to know how to cook a meal from basic ingredients :no:

[terbang]

Maybe you should spend more time getting out in the real world and put down that
Careful there. You often find that the more traveled people are, the more left they tend to be.

[Robert Taylor]

Careful there. You often find that the more traveled people are, the more left they tend to be.

Then as a prolific world traveller why am I right?

[James Deuce]

Then as a prolific world traveller why am I right?

So few words that say soooo much..... ;)

[terbang]

Then as a prolific world traveller why am I right?
Tourist or ex patriot?

[Finn]

good grief what nonsense!

"''world owes me a living'' attitude that socialism perpetuates" hilarious seeing the usual fallacies instead of rational debate. It shows the opposition have nothing but childish propaganda.
personal observations indicate to me that capitalists are every bit as likely to have that very same attitude.

That's typical Yank propaganda though and I'm not surprised the right wingers here suck it down so easily; they seem to lack the skill to investigate deeper than the propaganda level.

Yes, some of those socialist countries have high tax rates indeed and Denmark is said to be the highest at close to 50% flat. However, despite those tax rates, the people self report as extremely happy and contented and the countries themselves regularly top the charts for all worthwhile quality of life indicators.

The right wing focus on tax is nothing but a smoke screen designed to remove all state support and place it in the hands of private industry where it will be served up with a big spoon of propaganda and ever inflating costs.

Past US governments used tax cuts to destroy social welfare and state funding to such an extent that it was 'deemed' impossible to do anything but place it in the hands of corporations. Now they have creationism being taught as science, 40 million people without adequate health care, a dumbed down population scared to speak in public and a leader close to declaring a black flag state of emergency and crowning himself emperor.

If that's the model you want to live under, I suggest you go to Yankland and live the nightmare for a while. That's NOT what makes NZ a great place to live, that's what will destroy NZ.

Mate, what in life have you failed at so dismally that you have such an adverse feeling towards mankind and prosperity? I'm serious... you can tell Uncle Finn.

[idleidolidyll]

At the rate we have to fund Labour's social engineering policies, not many...

yawn, right wing economic policies over the last 20+ years has FAR more to do with our drop in real income than social policies.

what really makes me laugh is when the nutters from the right actually start to OFFER their suggested policies: it soon becomes apparent that THEIR versions of religion, belief and social structure are all more than likely to lead to increasing reduction of choice, equanimity, tolerance and humanitarianism.

In their place we will see growing racism, intolerance, abuse of the powerless, foreign ownership and adoption of truly odious policies 'suggested' by those who will fund them from afar.

[idleidolidyll]

Ah well, me & NightHawk wil just have to suffer our 'ever decreasing wages' as we fritter away our money while riding bikes, going overseas and buying expensive toys and properties I guess.......

I'm just a pleb who is unaware of the 'bigger picture' and just wants to enjoy what he has.

The worrying I will leave to the likes of you.

you're a cop aint ya?

obviously your idea of a good income and mine are somewhat at odds

[idleidolidyll]

I think that you are clearly reading propaganda yourself, it is not too late for you to learn a wider perspective. BTW, going to the States next week. The biggest problem there is as a New Zealander I will be treated like a leper through immigration BECAUSE of Helen Clark. And btw, have you been to Sweden recently and spoken to everyday folk there?

Maybe you should spend more time getting out in the real world and put down that copy of ''The life and times of Chairman Mao'' I have no doubt that you are a likable fellow and that I could readily have a beer with you but man you have got some serious lefty issues!

No Robert, you will be treated as a leper because you're a 'foreigner': Yanks are incredibly ethnocentric and paranoid. It has fuck all to do with Clark and as you stand in line for three hours holding your shoes in your hand, think about NZ becoming a clone of that ugly nation feeding off the blood of the poor and powerless as their wealthy lord it over their ordinary citizens. BTW: Don't argue with anyone, they might just shoot you.

I've been to Amerika (I lived in Canada after all) and I was totally underwhelmed.

I've been out in the real world most of my life, not closetted behind NZ's walls and it's western propaganda. I speak Chinese and have lived around a third of my life in other countries. Having worked in an industry beholden to the capitalist world and having had to work inside the capitalist behemouth in order to succeed in international trade, I am very aware of what goes on behind the scnes from a first hand basis......unlike an awful lot of Kiwis who see through really cloudy glasses.

Tell ya what, after YOU'VE had face to face meetings with the likes of Tommy Suharto, Chinese bureaucracy etc etc, you phone me and tell me I don't have a realistic perspective of how capitalism operates around the world. Until then I suggest it's YOU who doesn't have a grip on the reality of the way the world is manipulated.

Sweden?, No, not for a long time but I have a Swedish friend and his wife who come to NZ every year; is that enough?

[idleidolidyll]

Careful there. You often find that the more traveled people are, the more left they tend to be.

that's something i've noticed; it's because they awaken from their propaganda induced stupor to see the atrocities capitalism has heaped upon the world and the effects it has had on our fellow human beings.

[idleidolidyll]

Then as a prolific world traveller why am I right?

you're not so in my humble opinion, you're a world traveler with his eyes closed

[idleidolidyll]

Mate, what in life have you failed at so dismally that you have such an adverse feeling towards mankind and prosperity? I'm serious... you can tell Uncle Finn.

actually i've succeeded in almost everything i've done and i have a very positive attitude toward humanity: that's why i'm so disgusted at the likes of Bush and his ilk bent on the destruction of humanity/society in order to profit personally

tell me finn, what makes you so ignorant?

[MisterD]

see the atrocities capitalism has heaped upon the world and the effects it has had on our fellow human beings.

If it wasn't for capitalism, you'd still be a serf working free for the lord of the manor for the right to plough a couple of acres of land...

[idleidolidyll]

If it wasn't for capitalism, you'd still be a serf working free for the lord of the manor for the right to plough a couple of acres of land...

no mate, you have it ass backward: capitalism is the epitome of the servant master relationship and extreme capitalists lust for the kinds of power kings traditionally had (look up Laissez faire; their idealoperating environment): virtually all the freedoms and rights I have come from the left and liberalism

[MisterD]

no mate, you have it ass backward: capitalism is the epitome of the servant master relationship and extreme capitalists lust for the kinds of power kings traditionally had (look up Laissez faire; their idealoperating environment): virtually all the freedoms and rights I have come from the left and liberalism

Sorry, III, but if you look at the history it was very capitalist priciples at work in Britain as the Black Death altered the balance of supply and demand for labour, and ripped some holes for former peasants to aspire to fill.

[terbang]

you're not so in my humble opinion, you're a world traveler with his eyes closed

I reckon there is a huge difference between the eyes of a tourist (whether it be business or pleasure) and the eyes of an ex-patriot. Tourists only see what they expect or want to see and it is generally only skin deep. An ex-patriot, often learning the dialect, cannot help but get much closer to the warts and all reality. For example, I toured Switzerland in the 80's, ate some swiss cheese and toblerone, loved the place. Ten years later I lived there as an ex-patriot and for many reasons the cheese and chocolate had a different taste.

[idleidolidyll]

Sorry, III, but if you look at the history it was very capitalist priciples at work in Britain as the Black Death altered the balance of supply and demand for labour, and ripped some holes for former peasants to aspire to fill.

No, if you look at history, lassiez faire capitalism existed under kings and absolute rulers; those who profited were friends of the crown

it took 'socialist' revolution to overthrow the power of kings and in the history of mankind, almost all worthwhile social advances including democracy have come from the will of the poor and middle classes to have more rights and more say in the way their lives are run.

indeed it has been liberalism and socialism under a variety of names that has given us the rights that are being destroyed by capitalism in the US today.

[idleidolidyll]

I reckon there is a huge difference between the eyes of a tourist (whether it be business or pleasure) and the eyes of an ex-patriot. Tourists only see what they expect or want to see and it is generally only skin deep. An ex-patriot, often learning the dialect, cannot help but get much closer to the warts and all reality. For example, I toured Switzerland in the 80's, ate some swiss cheese and toblerone, loved the place. Ten years later I lived there as an ex-patriot and for many reasons the cheese and chocolate had a different taste.

spoken from the lips of the wise

i laugh at tourists who think they understand, the only way to really know is to live and work overseas

as chinese people get to know me they call me "Zhonguo Tong": liberally translated, that means someone who REALLY understands the reality of life in China.

No, I'm NOT an expert on all countries but I've LIVED in enough of them to have a pretty good picture.

[idleidolidyll]

Question:

If capitalism is so damn successful, why does the USA subsidise so many of it's major industries............and why are so many of you right wingers opposed to our government doing the same.

it seems there's a cognitive dissonance issue here

[Robert Taylor]

No Robert, you will be treated as a leper because you're a 'foreigner': Yanks are incredibly ethnocentric and paranoid. It has fuck all to do with Clark and as you stand in line for three hours holding your shoes in your hand, think about NZ becoming a clone of that ugly nation feeding off the blood of the poor and powerless as their wealthy lord it over their ordinary citizens. BTW: Don't argue with anyone, they might just shoot you.

I've been to Amerika (I lived in Canada after all) and I was totally underwhelmed.

I've been out in the real world most of my life, not closetted behind NZ's walls and it's western propaganda. I speak Chinese and have lived around a third of my life in other countries. Having worked in an industry beholden to the capitalist world and having had to work inside the capitalist behemouth in order to succeed in international trade, I am very aware of what goes on behind the scnes from a first hand basis......unlike an awful lot of Kiwis who see through really cloudy glasses.

Tell ya what, after YOU'VE had face to face meetings with the likes of Tommy Suharto, Chinese bureaucracy etc etc, you phone me and tell me I don't have a realistic perspective of how capitalism operates around the world. Until then I suggest it's YOU who doesn't have a grip on the reality of the way the world is manipulated.

Sweden?, No, not for a long time but I have a Swedish friend and his wife who come to NZ every year; is that enough?

I think North Korea beckons for you! I also have a book on Erich Honecker (spelling? ) if you would care to borrow it, its an intersesting study into the minds of these people.

And very soon I and the many like minded will not be able to argue in this way with you because of a bill before the ruling politburo that is going to restrict freedom of speech.

[Robert Taylor]

Question:

If capitalism is so damn successful, why does the USA subsidise so many of it's major industries............and why are so many of you right wingers opposed to our government doing the same.

it seems there's a cognitive dissonance issue here

Within limits I agree with you on that one, we are too unprotective of our own.

[Finn]

tell me finn, what makes you so ignorant?

Probably the same thing that makes you so stupid... NZ education?

[Dilligaf]

Careful there. You often find that the more traveled people are, the more left they tend to be.


I reckon there is a huge difference between the eyes of a tourist (whether it be business or pleasure) and the eyes of an ex-patriot. .

Careful, you might be wrong in those generalisations. I'm on my third country (living, not tourist) and I have not become more left as a result.
Many expats I know have COMPASSION, yes, but trust me when I hear beneficiaries cry poor, I can only roll my eyes and wish to give them a taste of what poor really is.

The only possible exceptions I can think of running through my expat friends / acquaintances are the missionaries.

[davereid]

... capitalism is the epitome of the servant master relationship and extreme capitalists lust for the kinds of power kings traditionally had..

What absolute rubbish !

Firstly, your comment that your wages have dropped in real terms is true. But capitalisim is not to blame, socialisim is.

The ONLY way you get a higher income is by producing more. And there is no doubt that capitalist systems are better at producing that communist or socialist systems.

2. You are confused about capitalisim and tyranny. Capitalists, socialists, communists, just anyone is capable of tyranny.

The Kings of old liked their wealth - but they were not capitalists.

They took land using force and made the inhabitants of that land their subjects.

They made themselves and their supporters rich by imposing taxes, on wine, on barley etc etc. This sounds like what exactly ? Willing buyer - willing seller, negotiated price?

Nope it sounds like communisim and socalisim!

[BIGBOSSMAN]

The Socialist Myth:

What is Socialism? Many will tell you that socialism is a moderate form of Communism. Others claim them to be two distinctly different and opposite theories, communism being a cruel and harsh failure and socialism being an enlightened and successful theory. Both of these notions are false though. A recent popular distinction defines one as government controlling the means of production and the other as "the people" controlling the means of production. This too is false considering that the pursuit of either such definition is prone to developing government management of human activity. Though theory may claim distinctions between the two, in practice they become one in the same. The idea of the sharing of incomes and government management of resources exists with little distinction from communism and its euphemistic partner socialism. In practice though the same problems plague both as freedom becomes necessarily usurped and trampled on due to abuse of power, economic impossibility, and unforeseen and unintended variables among other things. Because of socialism's inherent failures, it tends to resort to extreme measures. Communism is essentially Marx's name for socialist like systems. The only reason communism is equated with more extreme is mostly due to its acquaintance to the Soviet Union.
What is Communism? Again to many this definition is often a matter of great confusion. Some think it means socialism with force, others think it is socialism gone bad. A better definition is a utopian plan to enforce complete economic equality and achieve this by means of forced income redistribution and economic management. In short it is the same idea of socialism operating most often under a smaller branch of the socialist following known strictly as the communists. The ideas are practically the same only the name "communists" tend to attract more ideologues due mostly to a desire among them for alienation from a dissenting opposition, the capitalists, and for a hope of haste in implementing their utopian schemes. As displayed below, communism is in essence and in practice the same thing as its euphemized sister socialism.

The Differences Between the Two: The Six Shared Truths: It is hard to fully explain the idea of communism compared to socialism (due much to the fact that communists and socialists have never been able to agree upon and solidly establish exactly what distinguishes one from the other) but a few truths are undeniable:

(1) Both communism and socialism have an end utopian goal of complete equality in their ideal state.

(2) Both communism and socialism employ the practice of centralized economic managing and income redistribution as their primary means of working toward this so called "equality."

(3) Both communism and socialism experience the same types of problems in accomplishing this economic managing - the unintended side effect.

(4) Both socialism and communism are structured in such a way that an inherent inequality develops from the administrative top of the power structure for such is necessary to enforce compliance. Such compliance must be mandated in a socialist system due to the fact that human nature creates skepticism, opposition to the control of others, and a desire for free will.

(5) In both systems when this unequal elite inevitably emerges, the concentration of widespread power in a single space must intensify. This naturally attracts individuals seeking widespread power, or it corrupts individuals already in power with the lure of the same widespread power.

(6) As a result of the government structures found in both systems, the intensification of power and control on the upper level necessarily translates into the usurpation of remaining personal freedoms during its expansion.

Source: http://members.tripod.com/~GOPcapitalist/socialistmyth.html#socialism

[SPman]

And very soon I and the many like minded will not be able to argue in this way with you because of a bill before the ruling politburo that is going to restrict freedom of speech.
What bill is this?
More worrying is the new immigration bill, which gives powers of abritary arrest and indefinite detention,with the possibility of it being on the whim of a policeman or official, just like King Georges USA!

Immigration Bill: arbitrary arrest, indefinite detention (http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2007/10/immigration-bill-arbitrary-arrest.html)

So far, New Zealand has avoided much of the madness of George Bush's "war on terror". Other countries have significantly restricted freedoms and violated human rights, subjecting suspected terrorists to control orders and indefinite detention, and even torture. We haven't. But the government's new Immigration Bill (http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Legislation/Bills/4/7/d/00DBHOH_BILL8048_1-Immigration-Bill.htm) will change that, at least as far as visitors and immigrants are concerned. Buried in there among the arrest powers (most of which are aimed at enforcing deportations) is a clause which allows the arrest of anyone who is

on reasonable grounds, suspected by an immigration officer or a member of the police to constitute a threat or risk to security. Once arrested, they can then be detained indefinitely under a warrant of commitment, or deported without any proper judicial process, all on the basis of secret evidence they are forbidden from effectively challenging. The breadth of this clause is astounding. This is not about new arrivals and people who turn up at the airport with a bad security record. It applies to anyone. Tourists, visitors, students, even permanent residents. People who have lived here for years, who can work, receive superannuation, and vote, will be subject to arbitrary arrest and detention. All those Australian and British citizens who came here years ago but never bothered to apply for citizenship (because as de facto citizens it would make no difference to their lives) - people who are New Zealanders in every sense of the world, despite their lack of paperwork - will likewise be subject to arbitrary arrest and detention.
The potential for abuse here is astounding. While current law (http://www.legislation.govt.nz/libraries/contents/om_isapi.dll?clientID=107748587&hitsperheading=on&infobase=pal_statutes.nfo&jump=a1961-043%2fs.315&softpage=DOC#JUMPDEST_a1961-043/s.315) allows police to arrest on suspicion, it must be suspicion of having committed a particular offence. Removing that and replacing it with a vaguely-defined criteria of being a "risk to security" is simply asking for police and immigration officers to enforce their prejudices rather than the law. We've also seen in recent years several cases of people being victimised by unfounded allegations of terrorism (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/organisation/story.cfm?o_id=277&ObjectID=10338777) made through MPs or bottom-feeding media outlets - the latest apparently being the result of some sort of employment dispute (http://www.stuff.co.nz/4231850a11.html). Under this law, those people could very well have ended up being arbitrarily deported or in prison.
The clause is also likely to fall foul of the BORA's affirmation of freedom from discrimination (http://www.legislation.govt.nz/libraries/contents/om_isapi.dll?clientID=107748587&hitsperheading=on&infobase=pal_statutes.nfo&jump=a1990-109%2fs.19&softpage=DOC#JUMPDEST_a1990-109/s.19), as it clearly discriminates on the basis of national origin (prohibited by s21 (g) (http://www.legislation.govt.nz/libraries/contents/om_isapi.dll?clientID=107748587&hitsperheading=on&infobase=pal_statutes.nfo&jump=a1993-082%2fs.21&softpage=DOC#JUMPDEST_a1993-082/s.21) of the Human Rights Act). Now, in a sense immigration law is all about discriminating on the basis of national origin - but it's supposed to be about who is allowed into the country, not whether they are equal before the law and enjoy basic human rights while they are here. It was on that basis that the UK House of Lords found a system allowing for the indefinite detention of foreigners - but not British citizens - suspected of terrorism to be unlawful (http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2004/12/rule-of-law-triumphs-in-britain.html) back in 2004. In New Zealand, our Bill of Rights Act affirms that the right to liberty (http://www.legislation.govt.nz/libraries/contents/om_isapi.dll?clientID=107748587&hitsperheading=on&infobase=pal_statutes.nfo&jump=a1990-109%2fs.22&softpage=DOC#JUMPDEST_a1990-109/s.22), the freedom not to be arbitrarily arrested or detained, applies to everyone, not just citizens. And from a moral perspective, if we wouldn't tolerate this sort of treatment for New Zealand citizens, we should not tolerate it for permanent residents or visitors either.
The proper way of dealing with threats to security is prosecution. This allows the evidence to be fully tested before a jury, and ensures that the government actually has to prove its case. The proposed changes in the Immigration Bill would remove that vital safeguard, and allow the government to inflict significant punishment having convinced only itself. And that is not something any of us should be happy with.

[Finn]

Question:

If capitalism is so damn successful, why does the USA subsidise so many of it's major industries............and why are so many of you right wingers opposed to our government doing the same.

In its most pure form, it may have some minor flaws, however please name 1 country where socialism works on all levels... This outta be good.

[Ocean1]

What bill is this?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10461095&ref=rss

And you're too late:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=56562&highlight=kill+bill

[Winston001]

Love a political stoush. I started my life being a true-blue right-winger as a farmer's son. Then I got poisoned at university and believed in pure communism - the theory as opposed to what actually happened.

When I eventually became self-employed there were a lot of hard lessons to learn about the nature of my fellow man. Trust, honesty, diligence, good faith, all of these qualities were often found wanting in employees and customers. I know that is a harsh and sweeping generalisation but I justify it on the basis that good decent people became the source of comment in our office - they were appreciated because they stood out.

Eventually I became an ardent supporter of Roger Douglas and later the ACT party. Time has softened those views.

These days liberalism crossed with social democracy seems the best mix.

At the heart of the matter I think every human is selfish and cooperates for selfish reasons. It is genetic. Our society is so large that we need some government control of the individual to protect the weak from the strong.

It is the element of control which we argue over. My only complaint about socialism is that it takes no account of genetic drives of human nature.

[idleidolidyll]

I'm aghast!
It seems that it's worthless debating here over capitalism, socialism etc when so many don't even understand the meanings of the epithets assigned to various systems.

lets make it clear, essentially, the difference between socialism and capitalism is one of power. We may talk about money, finance and policy but in the end, the essence of capitalism is for the power to be in the hands of the capitalists (the wealthy few) while under socialism, the power is in the hands of the people.

Prior to the many socialist revolutions around the globe, even those not CALLED as such, we had absolute monarchies and under these, the wealthy few OWNED people, property, land and assets. They (a relatively few individuals) owned every damn thing and they controlled every aspect of the ordinary persons life. They might assign you a piece of land to farm if you were lucky but if not, you begged or hired yourself out for food and lodgings. The rich capitalists could pretty much do what they wanted including kill those who disagreed with them.

Ordinary people started thinking about this and looking for ways to get rid of it. Socialism lies within those freedom movements. Power was taken away from absolute rulers and their henchmen and we replaced it with democracy etc where the people have the power (supposedly) and the wealthy are kept in check by that power.

If socialism had not thrown out capitalism (extremis), we would all still be serfs today. But never fear, the new monarchies are corporates who control governments and subvert our rights and our democracies.

One need only look at the roots of those words, socialism and capitalism, to understand their motivations and where the power lies in each.
Socialism is about building societies where people are not abused. Capitalism is about controlling wealth and cornering it for the wealthy. If a few crumbs drop from the table, those mindless automatons, who THINK they are capitalists, will drool and thank their masters for the gift.

[idleidolidyll]

I think North Korea beckons for you! I also have a book on Erich Honecker (spelling? ) if you would care to borrow it, its an intersesting study into the minds of these people.

And very soon I and the many like minded will not be able to argue in this way with you because of a bill before the ruling politburo that is going to restrict freedom of speech.

oh dear, more propaganda as argument; when will the fallacies cease?!

as i've said many times already, extreme authoritarianism (fascism) is the root of the worst evil in government.

try to get a grip

[idleidolidyll]

What absolute rubbish !

Firstly, your comment that your wages have dropped in real terms is true. But capitalisim is not to blame, socialisim is.

bollocks, Douglas was a fraud in labour and his formation of the right wing ACT party is all the proof needed. You seem easily fooled by the words people assign to themselves. If I tell you I'm your King will you bow down at my knee?
RIGHT wing policies put in place by Roger Douglas as well as National Govts which followed that fake Labour Party are to blame for most of the drop in income.
They sold us out.

The ONLY way you get a higher income is by producing more. And there is no doubt that capitalist systems are better at producing that communist or socialist systems.

Oh but there IS doubt. The amount of waste in capitalism is massive and the way that capitalism ignores the negative effects of its policies in order to justify their supposed efficiency is a joke (pollution, human abuse, slaughter, reductions in free time etc)

2. You are confused about capitalisim and tyranny. Capitalists, socialists, communists, just anyone is capable of tyranny.

No I'm not. I've already spoken here about the problems with fascism (as per Hitler, Bush and Stalin). However, I have no confusion at all: capitalism is a system that places power in the handsa of the few (Capitalists) while socialism places power in the hands of the many (Citizens).
If capitalism and capitalists had their way, there would be no democracy. Successive Yank and Brit govts supporting dictatorships like Suharto and Pinochet emphasise that point.

The Kings of old liked their wealth - but they were not capitalists.

Of course they were, they were the pinnacle of capitalism and corporates drool at the power they had.

They took land using force and made the inhabitants of that land their subjects.

Sounds just like the USA all over the globe with it's bullshit wars and it's perpetual lies: killing for resources is the same thing.

They made themselves and their supporters rich by imposing taxes, on wine, on barley etc etc. This sounds like what exactly ? Willing buyer - willing seller, negotiated price?

What has capitalism got to do with willing anything? The Oxford dictionary say it's about Capitalists controlling the means of production (power).

It was liberalism and socialist ideals that resulted in democracy.


Nope it sounds like communisim and socalisim!

Wow! You really ARE deluded! Gasp!

Capitalism and socialism have always existed, well, for a very very long time anyway. That they were not CALLED as such is irrelevant, a pig is still a pig even if you call it a tree.

Adam Smith and Karl Marx may have written definitive works on the subjects but they did not invent them. Early Christianity seems to be the very epitome of socialism for instance.