Robert Taylor and idleidolidyll's political debating thread [Archive]

idleidolidyll

4th October 2007, 08:03

Maybe then they should pull out of Iraq, seal the place off and let them all kill each other. That just might do the world a favour. But then that pyscopath in the country next door is also looking decidedly dangerous.

God bless America, they saved us from certain annihilation by the Japanese over half a century ago, despite all their faults we should never forget that!

Properly managed Government with no vested interests and a hand up rather than handout mentality would help everyone. But given human nature at ALL ends of the scale that is only ever a pipe dream

Contrary to Yank spin, before they invaded and destroyed Iraq's infrastructure and security systems, they were NOT killing each other at anything like the rate after the illegal invasion. The death rate under Saddam even at his worst is not even close to the death rate due to the invasion and escalation by the Yanks. That the Yanks have used their prescence in Iraq to actually change Oil Laws signing over control of Iraqi oil to Yank corporate control should signal to everyone what this was really all about. Thankfully, the Iraqi Govt is now awake and rejecting that dictatorship.

As for the Iranian Prez. Yes, he's a wierd one but he's less of a psychopath that Bush. In 1000 years Iran has never attacked another country. They fought the Iraqis when Iraq attacked them and after the Yanks forced the democratically elected Mossadeq (spelling) out of power and installed the abusive Shah, they decided Amerika was their enemy and fair enough too.

Mossadeq's 'crime' was to declare that he would return Iranian oil to public ownership. Seeing a trend here yet?

The spin on Iran is driven by the Israel lobby in the US and Amerikan greed for oil at whatever the human cost to OTHER peoples. The REAL terrorists in this region are the USA and Israel and any serious investigation into their actions over the past 50 years bears that out.

You seem to be convinced that media spin is truth. Sadly it isn't, it's half truth and manipulation by the owners of the media: the corporations.

YAWN, Amerika saved NZ from certain annihalation? What a crock! Yanks like to claim they won the 2nd World War. That's bullshit. Russia did more to win that war than any other nation and China was the greatest probelm for the Japanese.

In return for Yank aid in WW2 however, my father and many others like him fought in some of Amerika's ill advised and abusive wars in Vietnam and Korea where the paranoid Yanks created 4-6 million deaths.

My suggestion is that if you truly beilive the Amerikan way: blood money and profit at the expense of human life, is the right way, you should volunteer to go fight for them in iraq.

The only reason the Yanks entered WW2 on the allies side is because they were pushed into it by the Japanese. Until then they had been happily playing both sides for a profit margin trading with Hitler (specifically the Bush family and Henry Ford).

Amerika is not the world's hope, it is the self serving destructor.

As for your last comment. Laissez-faire Capitalism relies on creating a vast gap between the haves and have nots and also relies on a pool of unemployed. It is nothing less that a new form of serfdom for workers. I applaud socialist measures within a society to ameliorate the abuse that free market capitalism usually leads to. I care for those abused and trampled by the system.

Robert Taylor

4th October 2007, 08:41

Contrary to Yank spin, before they invaded and destroyed Iraq's infrastructure and security systems, they were NOT killing each other at anything like the rate after the illegal invasion. The death rate under Saddam even at his worst is not even close to the death rate due to the invasion and escalation by the Yanks. That the Yanks have used their prescence in Iraq to actually change Oil Laws signing over control of Iraqi oil to Yank corporate control should signal to everyone what this was really all about. Thankfully, the Iraqi Govt is now awake and rejecting that dictatorship.

As for the Iranian Prez. Yes, he's a wierd one but he's less of a psychopath that Bush. In 1000 years Iran has never attacked another country. They fought the Iraqis when Iraq attacked them and after the Yanks forced the democratically elected Mossadeq (spelling) out of power and installed the abusive Shah, they decided Amerika was their enemy and fair enough too.

Mossadeq's 'crime' was to declare that he would return Iranian oil to public ownership. Seeing a trend here yet?

The spin on Iran is driven by the Israel lobby in the US and Amerikan greed for oil at whatever the human cost to OTHER peoples. The REAL terrorists in this region are the USA and Israel and any serious investigation into their actions over the past 50 years bears that out.

You seem to be convinced that media spin is truth. Sadly it isn't, it's half truth and manipulation by the owners of the media: the corporations.

YAWN, Amerika saved NZ from certain annihalation? What a crock! Yanks like to claim they won the 2nd World War. That's bullshit. Russia did more to win that war than any other nation and China was the greatest probelm for the Japanese.

In return for Yank aid in WW2 however, my father and many others like him fought in some of Amerika's ill advised and abusive wars in Vietnam and Korea where the paranoid Yanks created 4-6 million deaths.

My suggestion is that if you truly beilive the Amerikan way: blood money and profit at the expense of human life, is the right way, you should volunteer to go fight for them in iraq.

The only reason the Yanks entered WW2 on the allies side is because they were pushed into it by the Japanese. Until then they had been happily playing both sides for a profit margin trading with Hitler (specifically the Bush family and Henry Ford).

Amerika is not the world's hope, it is the self serving destructor.

As for your last comment. Laissez-faire Capitalism relies on creating a vast gap between the haves and have nots and also relies on a pool of unemployed. It is nothing less that a new form of serfdom for workers. I applaud socialist measures within a society to ameliorate the abuse that free market capitalism usually leads to. I care for those abused and trampled by the system.

I dont disagree with some of what you have said and it would make for an interesting and reasoned conversation face to face. You are certainly very right when you said America was profiting from WW2, that resulted in austere times in Britain for many years after the war. But as you are also clearly a keen student of history you know that already. I am proud that my father fought in WW2, a justified conflict against at least 2 pyscopathic regimes, 3 if you include Stalins Russia. I am not so certain though about WW1 in which I had a grandfather who was a sniper and fought in the Somme.

I also care for those abused and trampled by the system but socialism has proven to be a very flawed ''fix'', if only because those at the top ( like most if not all politicians ) sucuumb to corruption and seek power at all costs for powers sake. That is so VERY evident in NZ today. For my money one of Clarks most treasonous acts is getting rid of our Air Strike Force.

My philosophy is ''compassionate conservatism'' and a handup regime rather than handouts. Neither socialist or capitalist. There can be consensus....but nail those at the top milking the system, and nail those at the bottom who have made welfare a lifestyle choice and also know how to milk the system.

But ( and I am largely guilty of this ) we are off topic. But also interesting to see how such attitudes transpose into our small world of motorcycle road racing. I am certainly concerned if I am viewed by many as say " a greedy capitalist'' when demonstably I have helped so many people over the years for no charge.

Robert Taylor

4th October 2007, 08:43

Contrary to Yank spin, before they invaded and destroyed Iraq's infrastructure and security systems, they were NOT killing each other at anything like the rate after the illegal invasion. The death rate under Saddam even at his worst is not even close to the death rate due to the invasion and escalation by the Yanks. That the Yanks have used their prescence in Iraq to actually change Oil Laws signing over control of Iraqi oil to Yank corporate control should signal to everyone what this was really all about. Thankfully, the Iraqi Govt is now awake and rejecting that dictatorship.

As for the Iranian Prez. Yes, he's a wierd one but he's less of a psychopath that Bush. In 1000 years Iran has never attacked another country. They fought the Iraqis when Iraq attacked them and after the Yanks forced the democratically elected Mossadeq (spelling) out of power and installed the abusive Shah, they decided Amerika was their enemy and fair enough too.

Mossadeq's 'crime' was to declare that he would return Iranian oil to public ownership. Seeing a trend here yet?

The spin on Iran is driven by the Israel lobby in the US and Amerikan greed for oil at whatever the human cost to OTHER peoples. The REAL terrorists in this region are the USA and Israel and any serious investigation into their actions over the past 50 years bears that out.

You seem to be convinced that media spin is truth. Sadly it isn't, it's half truth and manipulation by the owners of the media: the corporations.

YAWN, Amerika saved NZ from certain annihalation? What a crock! Yanks like to claim they won the 2nd World War. That's bullshit. Russia did more to win that war than any other nation and China was the greatest probelm for the Japanese.

In return for Yank aid in WW2 however, my father and many others like him fought in some of Amerika's ill advised and abusive wars in Vietnam and Korea where the paranoid Yanks created 4-6 million deaths.

My suggestion is that if you truly beilive the Amerikan way: blood money and profit at the expense of human life, is the right way, you should volunteer to go fight for them in iraq.

The only reason the Yanks entered WW2 on the allies side is because they were pushed into it by the Japanese. Until then they had been happily playing both sides for a profit margin trading with Hitler (specifically the Bush family and Henry Ford).

Amerika is not the world's hope, it is the self serving destructor.

As for your last comment. Laissez-faire Capitalism relies on creating a vast gap between the haves and have nots and also relies on a pool of unemployed. It is nothing less that a new form of serfdom for workers. I applaud socialist measures within a society to ameliorate the abuse that free market capitalism usually leads to. I care for those abused and trampled by the system.

I dont disagree with some of what you have said and it would make for an interesting and reasoned conversation face to face. You are certainly very right when you said America was profiting from WW2, that resulted in austere times in Britain for many years after the war. But as you are also clearly a keen student of history you know that already.

I also care for those abused and trampled by the system but socialism has proven to be a very flawed ''fix'', if only because those at the top ( like most if not all politicians ) sucuumb to corruption and seek power at all costs for powers sake. That is so VERY evident in NZ today.

My philosophy is ''compassionate conservatism'' and a handup regime rather than handouts. Neither socialist or capitalist. There can be consensus....but nail those at the top milking the system, and nail those at the bottom who have made welfare a lifestyle choice and also know how to milk the system.

But ( and I am largely guilty of this ) we are off topic. But also interesting to see how such attitudes transpose into our small world of motorcycle road racing. I am certainly concerned if I am viewed by many as say " a greedy capitalist'' when demonstably I have helped so many people over the years for no charge.

GSVR

4th October 2007, 08:45

idleidolidyll

4th October 2007, 09:14

I dont disagree with some of what you have said and it would make for an interesting and reasoned conversation face to face. You are certainly very right when you said America was profiting from WW2, that resulted in austere times in Britain for many years after the war. But as you are also clearly a keen student of history you know that already.

I also care for those abused and trampled by the system but socialism has proven to be a very flawed ''fix'', if only because those at the top ( like most if not all politicians ) sucuumb to corruption and seek power at all costs for powers sake. That is so VERY evident in NZ today.

The problem is that the spin doctors have associated non socialist actions with the definition of socialism. Socialism is a system somewhere between extreme capitalism and extreme communism. It's main point is to provide for those who are inherently disadvantaged by the system. Yanks usually point to Stalin and the NAMES people give their political parties as indicators of socialism. That's propaganda not valid description.
The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics for instance was not a socialist system; it was actually a dictatorship abusing the name of socialism just as Hitler did (Hitler was a fascist who was elected on a phoney socialist propaganda campaign). The greatest threats are not specifically from socialism, communism or capitalism per se, they come form authoritarianism taken to the extreme as in Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Pinochet, Bush etc.
The desire to control and isolate wealth and power almost always lead to abuse.

My philosophy is ''compassionate conservatism'' and a handup regime rather than handouts. Neither socialist or capitalist. There can be consensus....but nail those at the top milking the system, and nail those at the bottom who have made welfare a lifestyle choice and also know how to milk the system.

Bush claims also to be a 'compassionate conservative' and he has created the deaths of up to a million people in foreign lands. How compassionate is that? Usually compassionate conservatives save that compassion only for their own people and they don't seem to care much about people being abused in their names. I don't for a moment believe you are abusive but I would want to be very clear on the use or abuse of such terminology.

BTW: Socialism is not the opposite of capitalism; communism is the opposite. Socialism is a middle path and modern socialism recognises that capitalism is useful but needs to be tempered by social initiatives aimed at preventing or reducing the negative effects of capitalism on those without power.

But ( and I am largely guilty of this ) we are off topic. But also interesting to see how such attitudes transpose into our small world of motorcycle road racing. I am certainly concerned if I am viewed by many as say " a greedy capitalist'' when demonstably I have helped so many people over the years for no charge.

Sure, there are many communists and socialist who have also helped their fellow man too. As I said, none of those systems are inherently at fault, the fault lies in mankind: greed and self serving inhumanity.

The specific definition of a conservative is someone who wants the world to stay as it is.
The opposite is not a socialist, it's a liberal. Generally, a liberal believes that people should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't negatively affect others.

Most of what people recognise as positive advances in society over the aeon's have come from liberalism not conservatism. It can be useful to think of conservativism as being opposed to change and diversity while liberalism is to welcome change and diversity.

Yes, we did go off topic but my reply was offered as a balance to your political commet.

idleidolidyll

4th October 2007, 09:17

You sound like you really know your shit Idol. Not bad for someone that rides a motad byke. Only comment I could possibly make is that its sounds like your having a bit of a whinge.

BTW do you think Rossi has lost it?

actually i just like a good debate/argument and i am not afraid to promote opinions i don't even believe myself just to expose that there are a plethora of 'valid' opinions.

I dunno about Rossi, perhaps he's lost his edge a little; what is there left for him to do now?

Robert Taylor

4th October 2007, 09:41

Sure, there are many communists and socialist who have also helped their fellow man too. As I said, none of those systems are inherently at fault, the fault lies in mankind: greed and self serving inhumanity.

The specific definition of a conservative is someone who wants the world to stay as it is.
The opposite is not a socialist, it's a liberal. Generally, a liberal believes that people should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't negatively affect others.

Most of what people recognise as positive advances in society over the aeon's have come from liberalism not conservatism. It can be useful to think of conservativism as being opposed to change and diversity while liberalism is to welcome change and diversity.

Yes, we did go off topic but my reply was offered as a balance to your political commet.

Your opinions and comments are stimulating, I like that. ( I even have friends that are socialists! )

idleidolidyll

4th October 2007, 09:43

Your opinions and comments are stimulating, I like that. ( I even have friends that are socialists! )

and i have friends who are rednecks and cops; we argue often but still have a great time

cheers Robert

scracha

4th October 2007, 10:17

Mossadeq's 'crime' was to declare that he would return Iranian oil to public ownership. Seeing a trend here yet?

Umm... Libya (I could go on) is another country that sprung to mind.

idleidolidyll

4th October 2007, 10:34

the current vilification of Chavez in Venezuela is similar.
Chavez has been democratically elected 6 times. He' was overthrown by force (by the wealthy right wingers) but was returned to power by his people. He has taken back the resources of his country and is largely using them to raise the quality of life for those most in need who have been battered by the right for decades if not centuries.

Powerful Yanks hate him with a passion for those 'crimes'. He has taken power from them and used it for ordinary people and he dares to openly promote such socialism to other Americans outside the USA.

On that note i'll explain my terminology. I refuse to write 'American' for Yanks. It's insulting to all the other Americans from Canada to Tierra Del Fuego (North America/South America). I reject their hegemony and call them Yanks or AmeriKans instead.

Robert Taylor

4th October 2007, 17:14

HDTboy

4th October 2007, 17:30

Robert Taylor

4th October 2007, 18:57

What electorate are you running in Robert? Or are you waiting until next year to mount a full blown political campaign?

Will you be a list party member? Which party? Will you start your own party? Will you run as an independent?

How about a ''storming of the Bastille gates'' to have a big clean out and start again. Get rid of all the leaches at all levels sucking off the taxation gravy train and have a Government of common sense that rewards hard work and enterprise BUT also gives everyone a hand up and equal opportunity. Reverse our incessant decline in living standards ( for all arguable myriads of reasons ) Socialism is a failure as is unchecked capitalism and the free market. Get rid of all the labels.

AND, make sure the roads are kept rough while at the same time providing tax concessions for purchase of suspension upgrades....

I am kidding about some of the above.....

Pussy

4th October 2007, 20:51

How about a ''storming of the Bastille gates'' to have a big clean out and start again. Get rid of all the leaches at all levels sucking off the taxation gravy train and have a Government of common sense that rewards hard work and enterprise BUT also gives everyone a hand up and equal opportunity. Reverse our incessant decline in living standards ( for all arguable myriads of reasons ) Socialism is a failure as is unchecked capitalism and the free market. Get rid of all the labels.

AND, make sure the roads are kept rough while at the same time providing tax concessions for purchase of suspension upgrades....

I am kidding about some of the above.....

I'll happily fill the role of Henri Sanson for you, citizen Robert

HDTboy

5th October 2007, 06:39

I'll happily fill the role of Henri Sanson for you, citizen Robert

What a fag.

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 07:39

Okay, whats your perspective on Mugabes Zimbabwe? Will the Yanks not ''police'' that because theres no oil involved? ( Btw, that cynicism is directed at the yanks, not you )

Like other nations mongrelled by colonialism, Zimbabwe/Southern Rhodesia/South Zambezia (all it's names since the 1890's) needed a revolution so that it's people could take back what was stolen from them.
However, like other revolutionary leaders before him (Mao etc), Mugabe stayed too long and became corrupted by his own power. He changed from a hero into a ruthless dictator.

As I noted before; it's not the system per se but unchecked authoritarianism that is the real issue

And no, the Yanks have no interest in Zimbabwe and other similar cot cases because there is no commercial gain to be had.

Grahameeboy

5th October 2007, 07:44

Like other nations mongrelled by colonialism, Zimbabwe/Southern Rhodesia/South Zambezia (all it's names since the 1890's) needed a revolution so that it's people could take back what was stolen from them.
However, like other revolutionary leaders before him (Mao etc), Mugabe stayed too long and became corrupted by his own power. He changed from a hero into a ruthless dictator.

As I noted before; it's not the system per se but unchecked authoritarianism that is the real issue

And no, the Yanks have no interest in Zimbabwe and other similar cot cases because there is no commercial gain to be had.

The shame is that Zimbabwe is probably worse off than it was before colonisation........the Black man sometimes needs the white man.

The farmers provided much needed wealth for Zimbabwee and also provided a living / home for blacks, many of whom lost that during the uprising.

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 08:00

The White Man's Burden? (Rudyard Kipling; arch racist, look the term up.)

Good grief! That's a racist comment in so many ways! I suggest the Black peoples of the region would gladly turn back the clock to before the white man came and turned them into slaves, destroyed their cultures and placed them on the path to perpetual starvation and poverty.

Pussy

5th October 2007, 08:03

What a fag.
You know what Henri Sanson did during the Revolution???

Robert Taylor

5th October 2007, 11:17

Like other nations mongrelled by colonialism, Zimbabwe/Southern Rhodesia/South Zambezia (all it's names since the 1890's) needed a revolution so that it's people could take back what was stolen from them.
However, like other revolutionary leaders before him (Mao etc), Mugabe stayed too long and became corrupted by his own power. He changed from a hero into a ruthless dictator.

As I noted before; it's not the system per se but unchecked authoritarianism that is the real issue

And no, the Yanks have no interest in Zimbabwe and other similar cot cases because there is no commercial gain to be had.

Your answer has not dissapointed! I note that the two last sentences in your first paragraph would with a few name and gender changes be very familiar.....

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 11:21

hilarious!

did they infract you too Robert?

Indiana_Jones

5th October 2007, 11:29

Every super power is hated in it's hayday.

It's the cool thing to do.

People hate the Greeks,
People hate the Romans,
People hate the British,
People hate the Germans,
People hate the Americans,
And People hate the Chinese.

and so on and so forth.

-Indy

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 11:36

yes, and there's usually a perfectly valid reason to hate them.

killing millions of your fellow citizens for instance

Indiana_Jones

5th October 2007, 11:39

Well I donno who your fellow citizens are, but myself being English, I don't remember the Americans bombing me.

Well they might of shot at us during the Revolution, but we had that coming, and rightly got spanked!

-Indy

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 11:43

Indiana_Jones

5th October 2007, 11:46

i also count the worlds huddled masses as my fellow man and when they are attacked vicously in the name of blood money, i am outraged and disgusted

and england has been a yank patsy for a long time now..............

I may not agree with what you say, but I'll fight to the death your right to say it.

-Indy

Ewan Oozarmy

5th October 2007, 11:52

and england has been a yank patsy for a long time now..............

Agreed. But the Americans were very helpfull during the early days of the Cold War - they drew a line across Europe and told the Russians "cross that and you're in trouble". The world could be very different now if they hadn't.

The Stranger

5th October 2007, 11:53

i also count the worlds huddled masses as my fellow man and when they are attacked vicously in the name of blood money, i am outraged and disgusted

Being so outraged and disgusted, what action did you take?
Write letters to the editor?
Take up arms?
Send donations?
Moan on an Internet forum?

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 11:54

ahhh, the cold war

those qwere the days.........when there was no such thing as a runaway superpower terrorising the planet.......

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 11:57

a number of the above excepting the taking up arms thing

killing people to stop the killing is like fucking to stop prostitution

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 12:01

Dammit moderator!

Please at least spell my name right, use cut and paste if ya have to (header)

even using the three eyes thing would be better: III

BarBender

5th October 2007, 12:02

ahhh, the cold war

those qwere the days.........when there was no such thing as a runaway superpower terrorising the planet.......

Yes....But Hoover was having a good time.

Good thread. Just put down Noel Chomskys latest. Bloody good read.

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 12:05

Yes....But Hoover was having a good time.

Good thread. Just put down Noel Chomskys latest. Bloody good read.

Chomsky is awesome and he scares them so!

My personal library has lots of that sort too.

the hanzi at the bottom of your message? i can speak it but i'm functionally illiterate when it comes to characters

BIGBOSSMAN

5th October 2007, 12:05

[COLOR=DarkOrange] Capitalism relies on creating a vast gap between the haves and have nots and also relies on a pool of unemployed. It is nothing less that a new form of serfdom for workers. I applaud socialist measures within a society to ameliorate the abuse that free market capitalism usually leads to. I care for those abused and trampled by the system.

Explain this statement to my former East German partner, whos father was investigated by the Stasi for stamp collecting!. Extremism is dangerous, whether right or left wing.

jrandom

5th October 2007, 12:06

killing people to stop the killing is like fucking to stop prostitution

Well, to reply to both those points:

A. I think that there can well be a worst-case tipping point where the only way forward in a disintegrating society is to arm everyone, and let the silent majority of people who just want to live in peace eliminate those who would benefit from the suffering of others. It's an extreme scenario, and not necessarily valid, but I do understand why some people are starting to identify the situation in Iraq that way.

B. If more girls put out, guys wouldn't have to pay for it! :D

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 12:08

ahh, there's some sense in there too (specially the last bit)

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 12:10

Explain this statement to my former East German partner, whos father was investigated by the Stasi for stamp collecting!. Extremism is dangerous, whether right or left wing.

yes it is and that is something i have noted several times: usually it is an offshoot of extreme authoritarianism and the scary shit happening in the USA now is a prime example (homeland insecurity etc)

BarBender

5th October 2007, 12:11

the hanzi at the bottom of your message? i can speak it but i'm functionally illiterate when it comes to characters

"tekkinmageki" = Kanji for bar bender

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 12:14

Oh Kanji, using traditional Chinese characters for the Japanese language.

I can read about 700-1000 Chinese characters but only the newer simplified stuff

The Stranger

5th October 2007, 12:14

a number of the above excepting the taking up arms thing

killing people to stop the killing is like fucking to stop prostitution

So a comfortable armchair kind of outrage and disgust then.

Not sure what you are trying to say with your last sentence, however it occurs to me to be that a very effective way to stop a killer is to kill him or her, they wont fucking do it again will they?

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 12:18

sure, i'm old and live in New Zealand

do you expect me to storm the US Embassy and shoot a few yanks?

the power of the word is great indeed

kill a killer? perhaps. however, like the killing of saddam, it sometimes prevents further justice being done. had saddam faced an international court instead of the guaranteed and yank supported (wonder why?) mock trial and execution, we may have had the dirt on cheney, rumsfield, bush and others

killing only creates more killing which creates more killing which creates more killing which creates more killing ad infinitum

jrandom

5th October 2007, 12:18

... scary shit happening in the USA now is a prime example (homeland insecurity etc)

In my opinion, the descent of regimes into facism is driven by human nature, not ideology, and is resisted to the extent that the populace can block the power-grabbing behaviour of centralised authority.

Already the state governments of the USA are resisting federal impositions (the REAL ID Act, for example). I strongly suspect that the post-Bush administration, regardless of the party affiliation of the Executive, will be a period of devolution and introspection for the USA.

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 12:20

watch out fore the next false flag op; it's said they'll do it to keep bush in the white powder house and use it as a pretext to attack iran

jrandom

5th October 2007, 12:22

watch out fore the next false flag op...

I have no doubt that there are those who would love to manage something of that nature, but I also don't doubt that they are resisted.

I hope that the forces of reason will prevail.

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 12:23

sadly that isn't always the case; yanks 'elected' bush twice after all............

Mr Merde

5th October 2007, 12:29

watch out fore the next false flag op; it's said they'll do it to keep bush in the white powder house and use it as a pretext to attack iran

By US law Bush cannot be elected for a third term.

This law was bought in a a response to the 3 elections won by F D R Roosevelt. There was a fear that he would be elected for a 4th term and no one else would get a look in.

He eventually had the grace to die in office.

But then they could always repeal that law, allow Bush to fiddle the elective again and stay in office until The Governator is ready to take office.

Mully

5th October 2007, 12:30

Excellent thread, lads. Very impressed that it didn't digress into playing the man, rather than the ball.

*Golf Clap*

Mully

5th October 2007, 12:31

stay in office until The Governator is ready to take office.

They'd have to change that law too - you have to be born (spawned??) in the States to be "elected" el Presidente

Coldrider

5th October 2007, 12:32

sadly that isn't always the case; yanks 'elected' bush twice after all............
I thought that 'elected' was paid for by the Haliburtons.

RantyDave

5th October 2007, 12:33

God bless America, they saved us from certain annihilation by the Japanese over half a century ago, despite all their faults we should never forget that!
You're having a laugh, aren't you?

The Japanese had basically surrendered and the atomic bomb was dropped because America wanted to ensure it was a power to be feared in the post-war world. It worked, too and led to nuclear proliferation ... nice work assholes.

Ask yourself this - if the aim was to procure a surrender would it have been necessary for the Americans to do anything other than merely prove they had the bomb? Maybe flatten a forest somewhere in Japan to prove a point. But, no, another 200,000 people had to die so ... I dunno. Don't know why, to be honest.

Here: read, be educated, become appalled:

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html

Dave

mstriumph

5th October 2007, 12:36

..................
I dunno about Rossi, perhaps he's lost his edge a little; what is there left for him to do now?

no longer 'driven' to the extent he once was ........ it happens, i guess:(

Mr Merde

5th October 2007, 12:36

They'd have to change that law too - you have to be born (spawned??) in the States to be "elected" el Presidente

US political aspirations have never let anything as inconcequential a "The Law" interfere with how they manage to atain the desired, by them, results.

Arnie "Kenedy" Shwarznegger for President.

A lot of rednecks would vote for hime cos they saw him in the movies beating the baddies and making the world safe for 'mericans

mstriumph

5th October 2007, 12:38

....................killing only creates more killing which creates more killing which creates more killing which creates more killing ad infinitum unfortunately that's usually very profitable - except for the killed, that is ..........

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 12:38

By US law Bush cannot be elected for a third term.

This law was bought in a a response to the 3 elections won by F D R Roosevelt. There was a fear that he would be elected for a 4th term and no one else would get a look in.

He eventually had the grace to die in office.

But then they could always repeal that law, allow Bush to fiddle the elective again and stay in office until The Governator is ready to take office.

elected?

who said anything about elected?

it's about marshall law

besides, he wasn't elected the first time, he was appointed by the supreme court. in Bush parlance that gives him another turn

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 12:39

unfortunately that's usually very profitable - except for the killed, that is ..........

oh yes indeed, there's barely anything more profitable than the killing industry

Coldrider

5th October 2007, 12:40

Ask yourself this - if the aim was to procure a surrender would it have been necessary for the Americans to do anything other than merely prove they had the bomb? Maybe flatten a forest somewhere in Japan to prove a point. But, no, another 200,000 people had to die so ..

More people died in the firestorms (strategic placing of conventional bombs to create chimneys) than did the with 'little boy' & 'fatman' (i think they were called). it is just that nuclear bombs are so much more efficient.

mstriumph

5th October 2007, 12:41

elected?

who said anything about elected?

it's about marshall law

............

democracy with the emphasis on the second syllable ........

the constitution? easy to forget that what men have written other men can tear up ...........

Mr Merde

5th October 2007, 12:43

elected?

who said anything about elected?

it's about marshall law

besides, he wasn't elected the first time, he was appointed by the supreme court. in Bush parlance that gives him another turn

He wasnt "elected " for the seconfd term either. Apparently more votes were cast for his opponent than for him. Creative accounting swung it for him.

Oh shit he could be here another 8 years.

Run for the hills.

Maybe the bible has it right.

The word of God comes from burning a Bush.

jrandom

5th October 2007, 12:43

You're having a laugh, aren't you?

The Japanese had basically surrendered and the atomic bomb was dropped because America wanted to ensure it was a power to be feared...

Well, fair enough in my books. Everyone was pretty pissed off at the time. I guess the Nips shouldn't have entered the kitchen if they couldn't take the heat.

[Edit: I think the high-level strategic discussion of the question at the time pretty much consisted of "Fuck 'em."]

The Stranger

5th October 2007, 12:45

oh yes indeed, there's barely anything more profitable than the killing industry

Those bloody capitalists Pol Pot and Joseph Stalin must have made a truck load.
I still can't help but wonder, how many would have lived or died had either of these fine gentlemen had a bullet in the head at an appropriate time.

scumdog

5th October 2007, 12:46

unfortunately that's usually very profitable - except for the killed, that is ..........

Yes, and technology fairly leaps ahead in times of war don't forget..

War? the worlds not happy unless there's a score of 'em going on constantly.

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 12:48

the second time it was down to black box voting even more than the first (Liebold Systems Inc)

the corporates look after the GOP, they know where the money comes from

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 12:49

Those bloody capitalists Pol Pot and Joseph Stalin must have made a truck load.
I still can't help but wonder, how many would have lived or died had either of these fine gentlemen had a bullet in the head at an appropriate time.

Pol Pot was supported by the Yanks as was Pinochet

democracy is only relevant to them when it means making bucks for the corporations; they'll happily support dictators and terrorists the rest of the time

jrandom

5th October 2007, 12:51

the second time it was down to black box voting even more than the first (Liebold Systems Inc)

Good lord, yes. Speaking as a professional computer programmer who's worked on a handful of security systems, I must say that that company is one of the most pathetic excuses for a responsible technology-engineering organisation that I've ever had the displeasure of hearing about.

Swoop

5th October 2007, 12:51

War? the worlds not happy unless there's a score of 'em going on constantly.
With all the greenies wanting to "save the planet" with biofuel crops replacing edible ones, there will be more wars to come.
Some for food resources.
Some for water resources.

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 12:52

I still can't help but wonder, how many would have lived or died had either of these fine gentlemen had a bullet in the head at an appropriate time.

ditto for Bush 1 and 2, Reagan, Pinochet and plenty more from the west or the right

my other eye is in the back of my head waiting for the evil bastards to try and sneak up on me

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 12:52

With all the greenies wanting to "save the planet" with biofuel crops replacing edible ones, there will be more wars to come.
Some for food resources.
Some for water resources.

the energy wars have already started and they're not about crops; they're about oil

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 12:54

for those enamoured of the yanks i suggest googling the School of the Americas: amerika's covert school of assassins which helped ruthless dictators slaughter hundreds of thousands

do some research into the CIA too; a bigger bunch of drug dealers and terrorists does not exist on the planet

Mr Merde

5th October 2007, 12:54

As this is a political discussion thread I assume it is for all politics not just those of the USA.

If it is indeed as I suspect could someone kindly answer me this,

When is the dictator dyke going to extract her cranial appendage from the anal orrifices of those tree hugging, sandle wearing agitators, take a real look at the state of the country and deal openly and honestly with us, the people she is supposed to serve not rule?

Merde

scumdog

5th October 2007, 12:55

ditto for Bush 1 and 2, Reagan, Pinochet and plenty more from the west or the right

my other eye is in the back of my head waiting for the evil bastards to try and sneak up on me

Plenty more ready to step forwards - different names, same ideas...

And like real life - the one that gets you is the one you didn't see coming - regardless of how guarded you are.

Swoop

5th October 2007, 12:55

the energy wars have already started and they're not about crops; they're about oil
Read my post. Not energy resources (that is well underway) but basic human survival elements - food and water. These are wars to come.

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 12:56

Plenty more ready to step forwards - different names, same ideas...

And like real life - the one that gets you is the one you didn't see coming - regardless of how guarded you are.

indeed; right wing, left wing; it hardly matters except that the right wingers can usually buy the worst weapons

kelleyb

5th October 2007, 12:57

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 12:57

Read my post. Not energy resources (that is well underway) but basic human survival elements - food and water. These are wars to come.

yep, they don't need to be but greed will probably make them inevitable

jrandom

5th October 2007, 12:57

When is the dictator dyke going to extract her cranial appendage from the anal orrifices of those tree hugging, sandle wearing agitators, take a real look at the state of the country and deal openly and honestly with us, the people she is supposed to serve not rule?

She probably isn't.

John Key's recent statements seem to indicate that National would be all about more or less maintaining Labour's significant policy directions, while addressing the concerns about the Government currently having its head up its arse and ignoring the needs of the majority.

Time will tell. I do sometimes wish the Media (tm) would make it easier to determine what the fuck the pollies are actually saying and/or doing.

mstriumph

5th October 2007, 12:58

More people died in the firestorms (strategic placing of conventional bombs to create chimneys) than did the with 'little boy' & 'fatman' (i think they were called). it is just that nuclear bombs are so much more efficient.

interesting point
Dresden springs to mind

but i'm not sure i want to get into a debate on which type of bombing is the more humane ....

scumdog

5th October 2007, 12:58

jrandom

5th October 2007, 13:00

I just want to jump in here real quick...

Welcome to KB!

Bitch all you want; it won't change a thing.

That's pretty much what the barbarian hordes said as they burned the remnants of the Holy Roman Empire.

The times, they are a-changin'...

I'll leave y'all to it.

You must be Murkn. You said "y'all". Do you also have cowboy boots and a ten-gallon hat?

Cowboy boots are cool.

[Edit: Heh, you'd be Cam's flatmate, right?]

The Stranger

5th October 2007, 13:05

mstriumph

5th October 2007, 13:07

I just want to jump in here real quick and say that I think it's cute when people who have probably never been to the US let alone lived in it feel the need to constantly put us down as if we're the entire source of all the world's ills.
Bitch all you want; it won't change a thing.

I'll leave y'all to it.

thanks :lol: i don't often get called 'cute' ....

but seriously, you are prolly right ---
unfortunately the thing to be REALLY disturbed by is that the people in YOUR country that bitch about it can't change anything either ---- and THEY get to vote over there .....

i could be wrong, but i think that's one of the concerns underpinning this thread :(

Coldrider

5th October 2007, 13:10

interesting point
Dresden springs to mind

but i'm not sure i want to get into a debate on which type of bombing is the more humane ....

No debate required, our 'homeland' was one of the the best at it.
If you say it often enough, bombing and killing are two different things.

kelleyb

5th October 2007, 13:11

Welcome to KB!

That's pretty much what the barbarian hordes said as they burned the remnants of the Holy Roman Empire.

The times, they are a-changin'...

You must be Murkn. You said "y'all". Do you also have cowboy boots and a ten-gallon hat?

Cowboy boots are cool.

[Edit: Heh, you'd be Cam's flatmate, right?]

1. Thanks for the welcome.
2. I'll guess we'll just have to wait and see what the future holds.
3. Nope no cowboy boots or hat. lol
4. Yep, I'm Cam's flatmate.

mstriumph

5th October 2007, 13:13

With all the greenies wanting to "save the planet" with biofuel crops replacing edible ones, there will be more wars to come.
Some for food resources.
Some for water resources.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." .... Einstein

BIGBOSSMAN

5th October 2007, 13:13

interesting point
Dresden springs to mind

but i'm not sure i want to get into a debate on which type of bombing is the more humane ....

A bit off-topic, but here's a couple of photos of Dresden, my favourite German city (well, next to Berlin anyway)

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 13:14

........and to prevent the moderators ambushing interesting debate:

I declare this space open to ALL political discussion and even peripheral issues that might not at first seem connected..............

bang heads at will and please, DO expect angry responses

:devil2: :bash:

kelleyb

5th October 2007, 13:14

thanks :lol: i don't often get called 'cute' ....

but seriously, you are prolly right ---
unfortunately the thing to be REALLY disturbed by is that the people in YOUR country that bitch about it can't change anything either ---- and THEY get to vote over there .....

i could be wrong, but i think that's one of the concerns underpinning this thread :(

We elect our lawmakers, (Senators and Representatives) but it is up to them to write the laws and do the budgets and all those things. Party politics on both sides of the aisle make it hard to get a lot of things done.

mstriumph

5th October 2007, 13:18

We elect our lawmakers, (Senators and Representatives) ..................

and that's ANOTHER concern underpinning this debate methinks - the thought that the voting mechanism is not secure from tampering and that lawmakers come into power that the people did NOT elect ..............:(

jrandom

5th October 2007, 13:21

We elect our lawmakers, (Senators and Representatives) but it is up to them to write the laws and do the budgets and all those things.

I do think that the Murkn three-way split of the executive, legislature and judiciary is a good idea.

The more common structure of combining the executive and the legislature tends to give rise to the kind of issues that the NZ Labour party is currently coming under criticism for.

mstriumph

5th October 2007, 13:21

......................

bang heads at will and please, DO expect angry responses

:devil2: :bash:

:kick: .........:corn:

SPman

5th October 2007, 13:22

had saddam faced an international court instead of the guaranteed and yank supported (wonder why?) mock trial and execution, we may have had the dirt on cheney, rumsfield, bush and others
Ther's still more than enough dirt on Cheney Rumsfeld, et al,. Just that the piss weak Democrats in Congress don't want to use it to impeach the arseholes - they are to busy feathering their own nests and posturing for power, than to do what more and more of the common citizens want!

I'm surprised that Chavez is still there! Do most people know that he even offered free oil to the poor of New York, as part of his "help the poor of America", program?

Burma is another point - the only thing keeping the military dictatorship solvent, is the money from the Enron owned gas pipeline across Burma to Thailand. Who was a long time member of the Enron board - Condaleeza Rice - so there's no way they will pull the plug on the generals money - in a way - another Yank sponsored tyranny.

Since WW2, the yanks have been responsible for the change of 50 governments, worldwide - most democratically elected, then overthrown, because their policies didn't fit in with US big business ideas.
Land of the free - yeah, sure! - since WW2, the military/industrial combine, has taken over the US government policy regime, with the result, that war and insurrection is now a very common occurence.
As for the Yanks pulling out of Iraq - after the Brits pulled out of Basra, rather than the bloodbath, that was predicted, it has become aboutthe safest area now in Iraq - very little violence compared to the other areas.

Sorry to sound anti yank, but, the government of the US doesn't have a lot to be proud about in their foreign policy, over the last 45 years!
Probably comes about because they havent been invaded recently, or been bombed to the bedrock, like so many other countries have - it tends to give you a different perspective on things!

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 13:22

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 13:24

bugger!
i wanted to rec SPMans lates excellent post but I've run out!

dammit!

well said SP

kelleyb

5th October 2007, 13:24

and that's ANOTHER concern underpinning this debate methinks - the thought that the voting mechanism is not secure from tampering and that lawmakers come into power that the people did NOT elect ..............:(

The whole stolen elections idea is nothing more than a conspiracy theory thought up by people with too much time on their hand who are unhappy that their candidate did not win.

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 13:26

no it isn't; Liebold were crooked and Bush was NOT elected

jrandom

5th October 2007, 13:27

The whole stolen elections idea is nothing more than a conspiracy theory thought up by people with too much time on their hand who are unhappy that their candidate did not win.

I'm actually supposed to be working today, so I won't start link-propagating and expounding upon the subject in detail, but are you fully aware of the electronic-voting records anomalies, the discrimination against blacks in southern states via the laws preventing felons from voting, and various other highly odd bits of well-verified data?

I'm all for putting it down to incompetence rather than malice, but still. One wonders.

kelleyb

5th October 2007, 13:27

Sorry, but you are wrong.

scumdog

5th October 2007, 13:27

Dig him up and put him in power so the rednecks can get a taste of real Kiwi style political abuse.

And then I won't need a special licence for my 'special' guns.

BIGBOSSMAN

5th October 2007, 13:27

Blah fucking blah. What about commenting on my bloody photos??

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1234241&postcount=86

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 13:28

I gots ta go for a while; that awesome Cagiva 125 is calling to me and the sun is a shining.

never fear though, i shall return (yes, that IS a threat)

kelleyb

5th October 2007, 13:28

I'm actually supposed to be working today, so I won't start link-propagating and expounding upon the subject in detail, but are you fully aware of the electronic-voting records anomalies, the discrimination against blacks in southern states via the laws preventing felons from voting, and various other highly odd bits of well-verified data?

I'm all for putting it down to incompetence rather than malice, but still. One wonders.

Explain the law that discriminates against blacks in the south with regards to voting.

jrandom

5th October 2007, 13:29

Sorry, but you are wrong.

Would you like to try convincing me that I'm wrong?

Your oh-so-American style of emphatic refutation without any explanation or supporting argument whatsoever will not wash here.

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 13:29

And then I won't need a special licence for my 'special' guns.

and the Red Brigade can march again

oH how happy you'd be

BIGBOSSMAN

5th October 2007, 13:30

Dig him up and put him in power so the rednecks can get a taste of real Kiwi style political abuse.

failing that, elect the National Party for a term......................if you can claw them out of the Good Ol' Party's bed

Sorry bud, Muldoon is perhaps a better example of left wing politics, not the right (price freezes, stiff laws concerning imports etc). A capitalist he certainly wasn't.

kelleyb

5th October 2007, 13:31

I can't believe I even let myself get sucked into this thread.
I will say that I am enjoying my time here in NZ and the majority of people I've met so far have been top notch. I'm gonna get off this thread. Enjoy your debating and everyone have a safe weekend.
Cheers!
Kelleyb

scumdog

5th October 2007, 13:31

and the Red Brigade can march again

oH how happy you'd be

'Right' on!!

And you wouldn't???

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 13:32

Sorry bud, Muldoon is perhaps a better example of left wing politics, not the right (price freezes, stiff laws concerning imports etc). A capitalist he certainly wasn't.

who said he was right wing?

i only said he was a political abuser.

ditto for Roger Douglas; another fukker in the wrong party

mind you, price and wage freezes are pretty bloody conservative...........

Mr Merde

5th October 2007, 13:33

Just random thinking here.

We have all been reading and discussing the finer points of our political opinions.

What I would like to know is, where do we go from here?

We have had Monarchy, democracy, socialism, communism, capitalism, dictatorships, and many other forms of government.

None of these have worked.

Even our so called "democracy" isnt democratic. As Thomas Jeferson said

"Democracy is 51% of the people disregarding the views of the remaining 49%"

Can anyone tell me what is wrong with Nationalism. Not as in The National Party, which is just a name for a conservatively inclined version of all the other political parties we have.

Nationalism where I want whats good for in the following order;

Me, my family, my friends, my town, and my country.

Where I am proud to be part of these groups and feel that everything I do, donate (pay taxes) and decide will directly be for the benifit of such.

I am very tired of my government giving away our hard earned monies to groups (Kyoto) and countries while there are people in my own country going without a satisfactory lifestyle.

They give away millions of our tax dollars for their pet projects and we suffer for it.

I dont quite come across with what I anm thinking so I hope you can make head or tail of my ramblings

Whats next?

jrandom

5th October 2007, 13:33

Explain the law that discriminates against blacks in the south with regards to voting.

The law doesn't discriminate. The law is perfectly sensible; felons can't vote. That's not the issue. The issue is that the law was wrongly applied.

I don't keep a scrapbook of articles on the subject, but a quick Google search turned up this (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A99749-2001May30?language=printer) relevant Washington Post article.

Also, here's (http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/11/more_on_electro.html) a good collection of information relating to dodgy electronic voting systems.

Look closer, little citizen, look closer...

mstriumph

5th October 2007, 13:34

bugger!
i wanted to rec SPMans lates excellent post but I've run out!

dammit!

well said SP

agree

so i'll do it for you :clap:

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 13:34

'Right' on!!

And you wouldn't???

well i didi get some great shots of cops beating on people, barbed wire and smoke at Eden Park and full scale riots in Godzone but no, I'd probably be arrested for throwing things at the fukkers

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 13:37

I am very tired of my government giving away our hard earned monies

tell us again how much money the ACC gave you recently?

that's socialism at work bro, in yankland you'd have to pay megabucks in insurance or go without

mstriumph

5th October 2007, 13:37

Sorry, but you are wrong.

can you reference corroboration?

mstriumph

5th October 2007, 13:41

Blah fucking blah. What about commenting on my bloody photos??

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1234241&postcount=86

i didn't because i couldn't decide what you meant by posting them.....

was it a desire to introduce tranquility in the midst of talk of carnage?

was it to remove the heat from the debate?

was it so prove that architecture survived where people didn't?

........ i wasn't IGNORING your pics - they are lovely ----- but ??

Goblin

5th October 2007, 13:43

oh yes indeed, there's barely anything more profitable than the killing industryYeah there's the pharmaceutical industry.....oh that's right, they're the same.

I notice one thing missing in the Robert Taylor and III political debate thread. Where's Robert Taylor?

Mr Merde

5th October 2007, 13:43

tell us again how much money the ACC gave you recently?

that's socialism at work bro, in yankland you'd have to pay megabucks in insurance or go without

Not talking about internal socialism. I'm pissed off at whatever government giving away our monies to outside agencies etc.

How much is the Kyoto agreement going to cost us and what are we goingt ot get out of it.

In aswer to my own question--- Millions and fuck all.

Why? So a bunch of tree huggers can feel good about themselves and hold themselves up to the rest of us as shining examples of benevolence and love for all. What a crock of shit. Every one of thos scum suckers are in it for anything they can get. The major prize to them is power over the popluace.

The Stranger

5th October 2007, 13:45

right...........like new fascist amerikkka where the rich get richer and the poor go to iraq to kill and die for amerikkka's blood money

right wing conservatism only benefits the already haves

So assuming you have the power to meld it how you believe society should be. Give us your vision of the ideal USA.

Mr Merde

5th October 2007, 13:45

Yeah there's the pharmaceutical industry.....oh that's right, they're the same.

I notice one thing missing in the Robert Taylor and III political debate thread. Where's Robert Taylor?

Robert was here but he seems to have gone off the board. Maybe, unlike the rest of us, he has a life outside KB.

A daring thought but could there be life off this board?

Ocean1

5th October 2007, 13:45

Can anyone tell me what is wrong with Nationalism. Not as in The National Party, which is just a name for a conservatively inclined version of all the other political parties we have.

Nationalism where I want whats good for in the following order;

Me, my family, my friends, my town, and my country.

Where I am proud to be part of these groups and feel that everything I do, donate (pay taxes) and decide will directly be for the benifit of such.

I am very tired of my government giving away our hard earned monies to groups (Kyoto) and countries while there are people in my own country going without a satisfactory lifestyle.

They give away millions of our tax dollars for their pet projects and we suffer for it.

I dont quite come across with what I anm thinking so I hope you can make head or tail of my ramblings

Whats next?

Good model, close to federalism?

Guess you'd start by devolving more of central gumint's social management roles to regional versions (states?, councils?) and further to smaller neighbourhood groups.

Makes sense because it allows national infrastructure to be managed by a national group, regional management by that group and gives the possibility of a genuine neighbourhood contribution for the smallest group.

I also like it that it potentially means both regional and local groups would then be on a competitive footing. Don't think you're getting good value for your local taxes? Move. Not happy with the way they're budgeting for schooling or health? Move.

I wonder what range the spread of baby states would take after a decade or two...

jrandom

5th October 2007, 13:46

can you reference corroboration?

He's buggered off!

So he has! He's scarpered...

BIGBOSSMAN

5th October 2007, 13:49

i didn't because i couldn't decide what you meant by posting them.....

was it a desire to introduce tranquility in the midst of talk of carnage?

was it to remove the heat from the debate?

was it so prove that architecture survived where people didn't?

........ i wasn't IGNORING your pics - they are lovely ----- but ??

Your first point was the prime motivation, second point a minor and to tell the truth the 3rd didn't occur to me. It seems we immerse ourselves so much discussing politics and 'unsolveable' issues that we forget just how beautiful the world is.
Philosophy rant over.

Ssh, I'm having an attack of mild-manneredness

The Stranger

5th October 2007, 13:53

no it isn't; Liebold were crooked and Bush was NOT elected

can you reference corroboration?

jrandom

5th October 2007, 13:54

can you reference corroboration?

He might have been subtly referencing the fact that the post he was responding to didn't...

SPman

5th October 2007, 14:00

The whole stolen elections idea is nothing more than a conspiracy theory thought up by people with too much time on their hand who are unhappy that their candidate did not win.Do you actually read or research anything in other than the mainstream media? Beleive me, you don't have to look very far to realise there is something VERY rotten in the state of Bush!
Do you know the Constitution? - being a US citizen, you should know it cover to cover, right? Yet, your current "government" has managed to nullify, delete or just ignore over half of the constitution in the last 4 years!
The founders of the US knew that something like this could happen - read some of their writings and sayings - eg - Thomas Jefferson "- Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty" or maybe[Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny"

I quite like "- I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use our power the greater it will be."

The Stranger

5th October 2007, 14:05

He might have been subtly referencing the fact that the post he was responding to didn't...

Get real. So you are charged with a crime, you go to court and have to prove you didn't do it or you are automatically assumed guilty.
Sorry it doesn't work that way (in general) III made an accusation, Kellyb refuted it. III should make good on his accusation.

jrandom

5th October 2007, 14:06

Get real. So you are charged with a crime, you go to court and have to prove you didn't do it or you are automatically assumed guilty.
Sorry it doesn't work that way (in general) III made an accusation, Kellyb refuted it. III should make good on his accusation.

Meh, meh.

I'd rather focus on the material I provided in relation to unreliable elections. What are your thoughts on that?

The Stranger

5th October 2007, 14:16

Meh, meh.

I'd rather focus on the material I provided in relation to unreliable elections. What are your thoughts on that?

I don't mind in the slightest provided your material supports getting rid of comrade klarke.

SPman

5th October 2007, 14:20

I don't mind in the slightest provided your material supports getting rid of comrade klarke.
And replace him/her/whatever with Key? The man who won't tell you what his policies are, because:-a - theyr'e so retrograd, even the NZ populace will say fuck off, or:b - he hasn't actually got any!

Rock and hard places, eh

jrandom

5th October 2007, 14:24

I don't mind in the slightest provided your material supports getting rid of comrade klarke.

My material was purely of an international nature, I'm afraid.

smoky

5th October 2007, 14:28

Power corrupts no matter if it’s red green or blue power

Man is always his own worst enemy

We will never get thru all the smoke and mirrors put in place by the wealthy, the capitalists, the politician or those who seek to promote conspiracies, sell books, sell news, those driven by hate or irrational prejudice.
It’s the same if you talk about third world poverty, global warming, war or capitalism verses socialism and communism. But this is merely the end product of the melding of pathways
The real world lies in the realm of motivation, psychometric understandings and principalities – What is the driver, what makes people who they are and what they do.

The more a person removes them selves from the material world, the more they can rise above and see clearer, the big picture.
Just my view

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 14:45

Not talking about internal socialism. I'm pissed off at whatever government giving away our monies to outside agencies etc.

How much is the Kyoto agreement going to cost us and what are we goingt ot get out of it.

In aswer to my own question--- Millions and fuck all.

Why? So a bunch of tree huggers can feel good about themselves and hold themselves up to the rest of us as shining examples of benevolence and love for all. What a crock of shit. Every one of thos scum suckers are in it for anything they can get. The major prize to them is power over the popluace.

so you think you can continue to fuck over the planet and not have to pay for it?

Kyoto is way better than the Aussie and Yank way: ignore it and hope it'll blow over

The Stranger

5th October 2007, 14:46

And replace him/her/whatever with Key? The man who won't tell you what his policies are, because:-a - theyr'e so retrograd, even the NZ populace will say fuck off, or:b - he hasn't actually got any!

Rock and hard places, eh

In terms of policy it's neither here nor there.
However I can not remember any party in our history more dishonest and self serving. In that regard this Labour party I feel leads the western world.
Paintings, election pledge cards, changing the law so as they couldn't be prosecuted for breaking it (hell, I wish I could do that), even trying to change the laws around campaigning at election time as they have defies belief.

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 14:47

And replace him/her/whatever with Key? The man who won't tell you what his policies are, because:-a - theyr'e so retrograd, even the NZ populace will say fuck off, or:b - he hasn't actually got any!

Rock and hard places, eh

Key is a liar and as soon as he grabs power he'll sell us down the river faster than Helen can embarrass a junior politician.

What scares me the most is the amount of support he got for telling us absolutely nothing

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 14:49

can you reference corroboration?

go to www.scoop.co.nz and search there for Black Box Voting

scoop nwe zealand was the first media agency on the planet to break the story and has kept up to speed the whole time: there's screeds and screeds of data

Swoop

5th October 2007, 14:50

I notice one thing missing in the Robert Taylor and III political debate thread. Where's Robert Taylor?
He starts his shift on The Rock radio station at 3pm.

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 14:51

Get real. So you are charged with a crime, you go to court and have to prove you didn't do it or you are automatically assumed guilty.
Sorry it doesn't work that way (in general) III made an accusation, Kellyb refuted it. III should make good on his accusation.

Nope, in amerika if you're Bush or the GOp you don't have to go to court; your opposition is as in bed with the corporate money men as you are and there's no acountability.

And I've referenced a location for excellent data; come back in a week after you've read it comprehensively.

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 14:53

In terms of policy it's neither here nor there.
However I can not remember any party in our history more dishonest and self serving. In that regard this Labour party I feel leads the western world.
Paintings, election pledge cards, changing the law so as they couldn't be prosecuted for breaking it (hell, I wish I could do that), even trying to change the laws around campaigning at election time as they have defies belief.

policy my ass

National will sell NZ to the lowest bidder in a blink.

Clark is at least doing that slowly: neither gets my vote

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 14:54

[[trying to change the laws around campaigning at election time as they have defies belief.]]

I for one would like to know which foreign power or corporation is buying my government

Ixion

5th October 2007, 14:56

Good model, close to federalism?

Guess you'd start by devolving more of central gumint's social management roles to regional versions (states?, councils?) and further to smaller neighbourhood groups.

Makes sense because it allows national infrastructure to be managed by a national group, regional management by that group and gives the possibility of a genuine neighbourhood contribution for the smallest group.

I also like it that it potentially means both regional and local groups would then be on a competitive footing. Don't think you're getting good value for your local taxes? Move. Not happy with the way they're budgeting for schooling or health? Move.

I wonder what range the spread of baby states would take after a decade or two...

Yay. Power to the Soviets.

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 14:57

yeeeehah! that 125 Raptor sure blew the cobwebs out with it's massive torque and HP

I could barely hang on most of the time!

But back to the political debate: those who will vote for Key instead of Clark, please explain exactly why? Don't just bag Clark, tell us what you think National would do better.

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 15:00

So assuming you have the power to meld it how you believe society should be. Give us your vision of the ideal USA.

the ideal USA?

at this juncture I'd have to say one that didn't exist at all; the misery and slaughter is has caused in the last 60 years has made it a paragon of ruthlessness and terrorism.

But introducing democracy might help. The Shamocracy they have presently is ridiculous and successive laws have in effect handed control to corporations.

The Stranger

5th October 2007, 15:19

Nope, in amerika if you're Bush or the GOp you don't have to go to court; your opposition is as in bed with the corporate money men as you are and there's no acountability.

You speak of accountability yet support klarke?

SPman

5th October 2007, 15:33

the ideal USA?

at this juncture I'd have to say one that didn't exist at all; the misery and slaughter is has caused in the last 60 years has made it a paragon of ruthlessness and terrorism.

But introducing democracy might help. The Shamocracy they have presently is ridiculous and successive laws have in effect handed control to corporations.
And to think it was founded by people who believed stuff like this..

"- I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a monied aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs."

or, more importantly -

" - I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion"

because, as with most governments

"Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence."

- Love that Thomas Jefferson!

Ocean1

5th October 2007, 15:36

Mr Merde

5th October 2007, 15:45

And to think it was founded by people who believed stuff like this..

"- I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a monied aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs."

or, more importantly -

" - I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion"

because, as with most governments

"Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence."

- Love that Thomas Jefferson!

I refer to him often. One of the drafters of the Declaration of Independance.

His political insights are still as relevant today as when he first came up with them.

SPman

5th October 2007, 15:51

I refer to him often. One of the drafters of the Declaration of Independance.

His political insights are still as relevant today as when he first came up with them.
Aren't they just!

Ocean1

5th October 2007, 15:52

Yay. Power to the Soviets.

:laugh: Not utterly dissimilar. Slight difference in scale if nothing else.

The Stranger

5th October 2007, 15:55

go to www.scoop.co.nz and search there for Black Box Voting

scoop nwe zealand was the first media agency on the planet to break the story and has kept up to speed the whole time: there's screeds and screeds of data

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
As a nerd I find the "security" absolutely unbelievable. Seriously, it is very hard to imagine in my wildest dreams that the reports I am reading are accurate. From what has been described any one of my kids could have tampered with the votes.
You are right, it was a conspiracy, seriously - no one could have designed a security system like that by accident.

Odd too that they would choose to use a jet (Access) database as they are less reliable, less robust, less secure and can handle less data and fewer concurrent connections than other cheap/free offerings even from Micro$oft. The ONLY benefit they offer is ease of tampering.
Who in their right mind would select a database where you are likely to exceed the limits of it's ability to accept new data?

Waylander

5th October 2007, 15:58

On that note i'll explain my terminology. I refuse to write 'American' for Yanks. It's insulting to all the other Americans from Canada to Tierra Del Fuego (North America/South America). I reject their hegemony and call them Yanks or AmeriKans instead.

Give up on using the term 'yank' then cause it's insulting to me.
I was born in the South I was raised in the South and I've never been north of the Mason-Dixon. And if you went to any of the southern states and started calling people 'yanks' you'd probably get shot.

Mr Merde

5th October 2007, 16:02

so you think you can continue to fuck over the planet and not have to pay for it?

Kyoto is way better than the Aussie and Yank way: ignore it and hope it'll blow over

Maybe but as far as I can see the government as it stands now are using it as a means odf just covering their arses.

They raise taxes on anything and blame it on Kyoto. They came back saying that it ewasnt going to actually cost this country anything then a few months later it turns out that we have to pay hundreds of millions of dollars to a group of peiople who are outside of this country and do absolutely nothing for this country. How much of those millions have been diverted from roading, from health, from policing, from education. I will lay money that none of it actually comes from the polititions that signed the agreement.

Recently DOC had their use of 1080 poison confirmed for air delivery on 75% of all national parks in NZ

The reason , the Kyoto agreement. They argued that the animals they destroy eat vegitation and produce methane gas. Therefore by killing them off they can claim the carbon credits and sell them off.

1080. NZ is the only country in the world that allows arial dropping of this poison.

1080 A close cousin to Agent Orange, but not dangerous to any of us (TUI Moment)

1080 an accumulative poison that kills everything in an area it has been used.

Kill everything and claim the carbon credits because they dont fart any more.

What fucked up bloody reasoning here and it is indicitive of the current govermental policies.

Lets all kiss the arses of the greenies and fuck over the world in the name of saving it.

Enlightened policy making doesnt seem to be the forte of anyn of the current batch of polititians here ijn NZ.

Our standard of living is slowly eroding, our social welfare once the envy of the world is now a joke. Educationally this is a backwards nation.

Merde

SPman

5th October 2007, 16:08

Maybe but as far as I can see the government as it stands now are using it as a means odf just covering their arses.

They raise taxes on anything and blame it on Kyoto. They came back saying that it ewasnt going to actually cost this country anything then a few months later it turns out that we have to pay hundreds of millions of dollars to a group of peiople who are outside of this country and do absolutely nothing for this country. How much of those millions have been diverted from roading, from health, from policing, from education. I will lay money that none of it actually comes from the polititions that signed the agreement.

Recently DOC had their use of 1080 poison confirmed for air delivery on 75% of all national parks in NZ

The reason , the Kyoto agreement. They argued that the animals they destroy eat vegitation and produce methane gas. Therefore by killing them off they can claim the carbon credits and sell them off.

1080. NZ is the only country in the world that allows arial dropping of this poison.

1080 A close cousin to Agent Orange, but not dangerous to any of us (TUI Moment)

1080 an accumulative poison that kills everything in an area it has been used.

Kill everything and claim the carbon credits because they dont fart any more.

What fucked up bloody reasoning here and it is indicitive of the current govermental policies.

Lets all kiss the arses of the greenies and fuck over the world in the name of saving it.

Enlightened policy making doesnt seem to be the forte of anyn of the current batch of polititians here ijn NZ.

Our standard of living is slowly eroding, our social welfare once the envy of the world is now a joke. Educationally this is a backwards nation.

Merde

Unfortumately, it looks like Kyoto and the whole carbon trading scheme is becoming a rort to business, and another RMA to government! - both of which most people need like a hole in the head!
Even the likelihood of a hole in the head is getting more and more probable, when societies start to get to this state - http://infowars.net/articles/october2007/041007Seized.htm
Its not just the USA that has slid toward a petty dictatorship!

mstriumph

5th October 2007, 16:18

..............................
............."Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence."

- Love that Thomas Jefferson!

yep! and not forgetting this one
"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive"

The Stranger

5th October 2007, 16:41

I notice one thing missing in the Robert Taylor and III political debate thread. Where's Robert Taylor?

Unfortunately, being a right winger he has to work so the rest of us leftys can get money for fucking around on KB all day. It's a dirty job but someone's gotta do it.
Yo, go Robert, keep it up.

Guitana

5th October 2007, 17:03

Unfortumately, it looks like Kyoto and the whole carbon trading scheme is becoming a rort to business, and another RMA to government! - both of which most people need like a hole in the head!

Oh yeah the government seems to think that because you're in buisness you're rich, well we would be if we were'nt taxed and penalised until our arses bleed, you really feel like you're being fucked over everyday you come to work or sit down to watch the news, hullo aunty helen and her arse bandit suck ups are thinking up new ways to suck your money up! Maybe all buisness owners should just send all of their earnings to aunty Helen and get pocket money from her once a week!
:shit:

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 18:09

You speak of accountability yet support klarke?

if you were awake and reading my posts you'd have seen me say several times that I don't support either Clark or Keys

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 18:15

Give up on using the term 'yank' then cause it's insulting to me.
I was born in the South I was raised in the South and I've never been north of the Mason-Dixon. And if you went to any of the southern states and started calling people 'yanks' you'd probably get shot.

well i'm not gonna call you american because that's even MORE insulting to the rest of the two american continents: what else would you suggest?

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 18:17

Maybe but as far as I can see the government as it stands now are using it as a means odf just covering their arses.

No, it may not be the whole solution but we have to start somewhere. Starting at Kyoto at least raises the awareness of the issue as a real one and that is a worthy beginning. Some suggest that economies may have to shrink by as much as 15% and blaming that on Clark is fatuous.

Rather blame it on us and all those before us who did the damage not those trying to awaken us to it and reduce the effects

Goblin

5th October 2007, 18:34

Unfortunately, being a right winger he has to work so the rest of us leftys can get money for fucking around on KB all day. It's a dirty job but someone's gotta do it.
Yo, go Robert, keep it up.Yup! It's a hard road to find the perfect right winger. Just when it was turning into a mass debate too. :corn::corn:

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 18:44

more like he hasn't found a good work life balance like this socialist......................getting rich is a waste of time when your heart gives out at 52

terbang

5th October 2007, 18:53

Yup! It's a hard road to find the perfect right winger. Just when it was turning into a mass debate too. :corn::corn:

Too right, 15 year old right wing schoolboys have been doing that for centuries. Beware of bespectacled right wingers.

Robert Taylor

5th October 2007, 18:59

With all the greenies wanting to "save the planet" with biofuel crops replacing edible ones, there will be more wars to come.
Some for food resources.
Some for water resources.

Exactly, and it hasnt escaped everyones attention that we are one of the worlds food and water resources and a gateway to the Antarctic. Who was it that said we live in a ''benign environment'' when it comes to defending ourselves?....was it the same conniving ''b eye tee see h'' that removed our Air strike capability, even though it was symbolic and at least stated that up until then we werent completely bludging off others defensive capabilities.

Heck, I think I had something to do with starting this thread.

Goblin

5th October 2007, 18:59

more like he hasn't found a good work life balance like this socialist......................getting rich is a waste of time when your heart gives out at 52Well said! I vote III Master Debater! :first:

carver

5th October 2007, 19:08

My suggestion is that if you truly beilive the Amerikan way: blood money and profit at the expense of human life, is the right way, you should volunteer to go fight for them in iraq.

The only reason the Yanks entered WW2 on the allies side is because they were pushed into it by the Japanese. Until then they had been happily playing both sides for a profit margin trading with Hitler (specifically the Bush family and Henry Ford).

Amerika is not the world's hope, it is the self serving destructor.

As for your last comment. L[/COLOR]aissez-faire Capitalism relies on creating a vast gap between the haves and have nots and also relies on a pool of unemployed. It is nothing less that a new form of serfdom for workers. I applaud socialist measures within a society to ameliorate the abuse that free market capitalism usually leads to. I care for those abused and trampled by the system.

get outa here ya commie!! capitalism rules....ya get what you work for...none of this silly socialist handout fair it up rubbish..
if you work and try hard, you prosper...anyhow, who said life was fair?
however, i do not support its wars

idleidolidyll

5th October 2007, 19:52

scuse me while i yawn and chukle at the same time; naevity does that to me sometimes

Waylander

5th October 2007, 20:01

well i'm not gonna call you american because that's even MORE insulting to the rest of the two american continents: what else would you suggest?

Oddly enough those I've talked to from Mexico, Canada, Brazil and Argentina find it insulting to be referred to as Americans. Doesn't mean every one there is but when the majority of the world means the USA when they say Americans, I'd be insulted to be called one if I wasn't from there.

Do you call a Russian Asian? German a European?
Are you Oceanic or a New Zealander?

As for what to call my country other than by it's name, surely someone as smart as you can find one that isn't insulting. The States is a real simple one for you and I didn't even finish High School back home.
Or maybe instead of grouping n entire nation of down right good people in with an administration of fucktards led by a retard that doesn't even know which way is up on a phone, you could just say Bush.

SPman

5th October 2007, 20:17

I thought Jake is a TEXAN! - not a Yank, American, Rebel, just a plain Texan.

Does he need more?

SPman

5th October 2007, 20:19

..was it the same conniving ''b eye tee see h'' that removed our Air strike capability, even though it was symbolic and at least stated that up until then we werent completely bludging off others defensive capabilities.

There is a chance they might reactivate the Macchis! (the sales keep falling through and the Skyhawks are still at Ohakea, as well.......)

Waylander

5th October 2007, 20:21

I thought Jake is a TEXAN! - not a Yank, American, Rebel, just a plain Texan.

Does he need more?
That he is but I don't think idleidolidyll is really making that distinction.
When he says 'yank' he means all of us, not just a particular region.
Like calling a Wellingtonian a JAFA.

The Stranger

5th October 2007, 22:06

if you were awake and reading my posts you'd have seen me say several times that I don't support either Clark or Keys

So once again Idle, your fix is?

I mean it is all well and good to knock from without, anyone can (and does do that) lets hear what will work, not what wont work.

Delerium

5th October 2007, 22:18

Exactly, and it hasnt escaped everyones attention that we are one of the worlds food and water resources and a gateway to the Antarctic. Who was it that said we live in a ''benign environment'' when it comes to defending ourselves?....was it the same conniving ''b eye tee see h'' that removed our Air strike capability, even though it was symbolic and at least stated that up until then we werent completely bludging off others defensive capabilities.

Heck, I think I had something to do with starting this thread.

Never mind, I better keep my mouth shut

Robert Taylor

6th October 2007, 07:44

more like he hasn't found a good work life balance like this socialist......................getting rich is a waste of time when your heart gives out at 52

No. More like many my work life imbalance subsidises others....

Finn

6th October 2007, 07:48

well i'm not gonna call you american because that's even MORE insulting to the rest of the two american continents: what else would you suggest?

A kiwi? But surely you wouldn't stoop that low.

idleidolidyll

6th October 2007, 08:09

So once again Idle, your fix is?

I mean it is all well and good to knock from without, anyone can (and does do that) lets hear what will work, not what wont work.

my 'fix' is already here; MMP

a far better political system than the abusive dictatorships we had before it.

That rednecks don't like it only proves to me that it works.

MMP tempers the worst excesses of the majority partner.

Labour's problem is that they have shifted right and cosey up to foreign business without enough considereration of the impact on wages and jobs in NZ. Our real income has dropped drastically since the 80's and the gap between rich and poor has grown.

What value is McDonalds etc to NZ? Most of these big corporations pay minimum wages and destroy local business, then they send their profits offshore. This is something Winston Peters seems to understand but he's seriously flawed in other areas.

In the end though, I can vote tactically, protest and write. I am not about to buy a gun and blow someones head off for it.

Far too many Kiwis whine about but don't even study politics and they are easily suckered by hype and spin.

You ask what we can do or what I do: regardless of what you might say about it, countering propaganda and spin is extremely valuable.

idleidolidyll

6th October 2007, 08:12

Oddly enough those I've talked to from Mexico, Canada, Brazil and Argentina find it insulting to be referred to as Americans.

and when I lived in Canada most Canadians I spoke to found it disgusting that yanks stole the name of two continents as a label for their people. Likewise many other continental Americans I've chatted with online.

So much for hearsay.

It's my little protest and tough luck if you or anyone else doesn't like it.

The Stranger

6th October 2007, 08:20

my 'fix' is already here; MMP

a far better political system than the abusive dictatorships we had before it.

That rednecks don't like it only proves to me that it works.

MMP tempers the worst excesses of the majority partner.

Labour's problem is that they have shifted right and cosey up to foreign business without enough considereration of the impact on wages and jobs in NZ. Our real income has dropped drastically since the 80's and the gap between rich and poor has grown.

So which country would you say has the closest working model to your ideal?

idleidolidyll

6th October 2007, 08:21

Security and WMD's were always smokescreens. That was confirmed when Yanks interfered in lawmaking in Iraq in many ways but specifically in order to make it easier for Yank corporations to rape that economy and specifically to steal the oil without a significant percentage of profits going to Iraqis (other than corrupted Yank cronies).

The Iraqi people have woken up though and they are pissed:

Black Gold Turns Grey as Western Giants Prepare to Draw from the Wells of Iraq (September 30, 2007)
In this Independent article, Ewa Jasiewicz speaks of Iraq's fight for access to Iraq's vast oil reserves. The author says that the growing public opposition to foreign control of Iraq's oil has stalled the "black goldrush" that oil companies were hoping for.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/2007/0930blackgoldgrey.htm (http://ent.groundspring.org/EmailNow/pub.php?module=URLTracker&cmd=track&j=166854980&u=1652605)

davereid

6th October 2007, 08:27

No. More like many my work life imbalance subsidises others....

The problem is that democracy as they say is often two wolves and a lamb voting on dinner.

Socialists would have you believe that capitalism is inherently evil, and designed to take us all back to slavery or serfdom.

And it's quite capable of doing that !

But, socialisim actually does do it.

We all know that if you work, and get no reward, it is taken by your master (The one who sets the rules) that you are a slave.

At exactly what point do you stop being a slave ?

If master gives you food and board?
When you keep 10 % of your income ?
50% of income ?

If socialists really believed that income tax is anything other that being fined for being productive, then would make income tax voluntary.

That would be real democracy ! Not only do you vote for an outcome, you vote with your money !

idleidolidyll

6th October 2007, 08:28

the whole thing was and is a farce and a failure except that it has succeeded in one of it's unspoken goals: transferring wealth from the taxpayer to the corporations and the already rich.
Oil companies are making outrageous profits, companis engaged in building and supplying the machines of war are laughing all the way to the bank and Cheney and Bush's buddies in Carlyse and Halliburton are creaming it massively.
The ever changing excuses for this war have all fallen by the wayside; unproven or proven bullshit. What remains is greed and lust for power.

Lets see Iraq from the opposite spin:
"Progress" by the Numbers (September 9, 2007)
This TomDispatch article examines the "carefully defined and cherry picked" numbers presented by the US government and General David Petraeus to sell progress in Iraq. The author says marketing tools have been used by the US since before the war. To illustrate the manipulation of numbers, the author presents a comprehensive list of his own alternative numbers - 17 nations withdrawn from the coalition of the willing, US$3 billion cost of the war per week, and 50,000 Iraqis fleeing their homes each month.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/withdraw/2007/0909progressnumbers.htm (http://ent.groundspring.org/EmailNow/pub.php?module=URLTracker&cmd=track&j=166854980&u=1652607)

idleidolidyll

6th October 2007, 08:29

Finn

6th October 2007, 08:30

So which country would you say has the closest working model to your ideal?

There isn't one. This sort of ideoligy is breed by people who have given up on mankind and through their own failures in life strongly beleive that prosperity is the root of all evil.

idleidolidyll

6th October 2007, 08:32

So which country would you say has the closest working model to your ideal?

no one country but a mixture of them including our own.

the annual index for quality of life, for honest in the media, for freedom etc give a pretty clear picture of what works and what doesn't.

you've quizzed me on what I would do, must be time for you to front up now

idleidolidyll

6th October 2007, 08:37

One terrorist dictator slamming another would be dictator ("the Constitution is just a goddam piece of paper") over something both are guilty of!

Mugabe Slams Bush Over Human Rights (September 27, 2007)
During a speech in the UN General Assembly, Zimbabwe's President, Robert Mugabe told US President George Bush that it was hypocritical to accuse countries like Iran, Syria, Belarus, North Korea and Zimbabwe of being 'brutal regimes'. He said, "He kills in Iraq. He kills in Afghanistan. And this is supposed to be our master on human rights?" Robert Mugabe's regime itself has a history of human rights violations; however Mugabe points out, the US can hardly point a finger at other countries, as long as Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib exist. (Reuters)
http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/un/2007/0927mugabe.htm (http://ent.groundspring.org/EmailNow/pub.php?module=URLTracker&cmd=track&j=166854980&u=1652619)

idleidolidyll

6th October 2007, 08:39

The Diagnosis of a Dying Republic (September 25, 2007)
This libertarian LewRockwell article discusses Chalmer Johnson's new book "Nemesis: The Last Days of the American Republic," which dissects the US "empire" and the essence of its "warfare state." The article argues that an empire often promotes the economic interests of a very small elite, while ignoring the interests of the general public. This makes empires unsustainable in the long run. By comparing the US with the Roman and the British empires, the article concludes that the US must either give up the empire and restore the original republic or see it vanish, as did the Roman counterpart.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/history/2007/0925diagnosis.htm (http://ent.groundspring.org/EmailNow/pub.php?module=URLTracker&cmd=track&j=166854980&u=1652620)

Robert Taylor

6th October 2007, 08:45

The problem is that democracy as they say is often two wolves and a lamb voting on dinner.

Socialists would have you believe that capitalism is inherently evil, and designed to take us all back to slavery or serfdom.

And it's quite capable of doing that !

But, socialisim actually does do it.

We all know that if you work, and get no reward, it is taken by your master (The one who sets the rules) that you are a slave.

At exactly what point do you stop being a slave ?

If master gives you food and board?
When you keep 10 % of your income ?
50% of income ?

If socialists really believed that income tax is anything other that being fined for being productive, then would make income tax voluntary.

That would be real democracy ! Not only do you vote for an outcome, you vote with your money !

Perfect sense, socialism actually slowly and incessantly destroys the will to work and MMP ( mickey mouse politics ) has just given us a whole load more dregs in Parliament feeding off us. How many shonky recent decisions have been a pay off to minorites?

Perhaps we should all vote Green ( red on the inside ) at the next election. Compulsory marijuana abuse, we would all have to smoke it and pretend that everything is allllright..............

No more posts from me today. Im now going to further engage in being a nasty capitalist for the rest of the day, delirious in the knowledge that a proportion of the tax dollars that are raped off me will be subsidising the ''Governments'' election bribery fund.

The Stranger

6th October 2007, 09:07

no one country but a mixture of them including our own.

the annual index for quality of life, for honest in the media, for freedom etc give a pretty clear picture of what works and what doesn't.

you've quizzed me on what I would do, must be time for you to front up now

I tend to favour personal responsibility and personal freedoms. I believe that if you remove a persons responsibility they (by and large) act irresponsibly.
Certainly in that regard I favour the policies of the ACT party.

I favour America and the American people. I have never trusted Bush. I feel he is largely equivilent to klarke in his level of deceit and dishonesty. Like the Americans or not, the world in my view needs the ying and the yang. Both communism and Islam are expansionist, as such they do not rest with what they have and will try and acquire or convert neighbours.
As you could guess by my first comments, this is not something I would be too open to.

So yeah I guess believing in personal freedoms and responsibilities, believing that I know what is best for me and my family and being responsible both financially and socially for my children and family makes me lean right.

idleidolidyll

6th October 2007, 09:11

Perfect sense, socialism actually slowly and incessantly destroys the will to work and MMP ( mickey mouse politics ) has just given us a whole load more dregs in Parliament feeding off us. How many shonky recent decisions have been a pay off to minorites?

Perhaps we should all vote Green ( red on the inside ) at the next election. Compulsory marijuana abuse, we would all have to smoke it and pretend that everything is allllright..............

No more posts from me today. Im now going to further engage in being a nasty capitalist for the rest of the day, delirious in the knowledge that a proportion of the tax dollars that are raped off me will be subsidising the ''Governments'' election bribery fund.

Hilarious!

You quote the extremes but don't offer the counter argument that capitalism reduces wages and creates serfdom.

The answer is a combination of capitalism tempered by socialist humanity. Capitalism without the restraints of socialism will always return us to the days of Kings and servants but merely with a new title.

The powerful must always be restrained to protect their prey; the poor and weak.

idleidolidyll

6th October 2007, 09:15

I tend to favour personal responsibility and personal freedoms. I believe that if you remove a persons responsibility they (by and large) act irresponsibly.
Certainly in that regard I favour the policies of the ACT party.

I favour America and the American people. I have never trusted Bush. I feel he is largely equivilent to klarke in his level of deceit and dishonesty. Like the Americans or not, the world in my view needs the ying and the yang. Both communism and Islam are expansionist, as such they do not rest with what they have and will try and acquire or convert neighbours.
As you could guess by my first comments, this is not something I would be too open to.

So yeah I guess believing in personal freedoms and responsibilities, believing that I know what is best for me and my family and being responsible both financially and socially for my children and family makes me lean right.

the road to serfdom is paved with the excuses of personal freedom and responsibility.

idleidolidyll

6th October 2007, 09:19

idleidolidyll

6th October 2007, 09:28

So, here's a challenge to all, take the test and discover what your economic and philosophical leanings actually are:

http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

My latest results are similar to my older ones and if you compare these to the political parties you should understand why I don't vote Labour or National.

Your political compass

Economic Left/Right: -7.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.95

http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-7.88&soc=-5.95

idleidolidyll

6th October 2007, 09:30

I'm proud indeed to be in much the same place as Ghandi, Nelson Mandela and the Dalai Lama and also proud to a long way from Thatcher, Bush, Blair and Mugabe.

idleidolidyll

6th October 2007, 09:34

For comparison, here is where our political parties lie on this chart:

The New Zealand Party Political Compass™

<center> http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/nz2005.gif

also interesting is that the gross abusers are not inherently right or left wing but as I've said before; authoriatarian (Bush and Mao would also be well into the upper two quadrants but opposite on the economic scale):

<center> http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/axeswithnames.gif </center>
</center>

BIGBOSSMAN

6th October 2007, 09:36

idleidolidyll

6th October 2007, 09:43

Go and see 'The Lives Of Others', a german movie about the Stasi before the fall of the Berlin wall - you'll see a pretty accurate portrayal of your ideal 'powerful being restrained to protect their prey: the poor and weak'.

I don't need to; the Stasi were a product of an extreme authoritarian state and i've already stated that IMO authoritarianism is by far the greatest cause of abuse in any political system.
It had bugger all to do with the right/left economic index; that's just a smokescreen.

Ocean1

6th October 2007, 09:49

my 'fix' is already here; MMP

a far better political system than the abusive dictatorships we had before it.

That rednecks don't like it only proves to me that it works.

MMP tempers the worst excesses of the majority partner.

Possibly, it also destroys the possibility of any long term initiatives and reduces core policy to an inefective mish-mash of mediocre compromise.

Labour's problem is that they have shifted right and cosey up to foreign business without enough considereration of the impact on wages and jobs in NZ. Our real income has dropped drastically since the 80's and the gap between rich and poor has grown.

Labour's problem is that, having recognised that competitive international economic performance is incompatible with general socialist ideology, they sought to bolster exactly those concepts by expanding the tax burden to the only source that can afford it: The middle class, the definition of which has since broadened to include anyone indulging in actual worthwhile commercial endeavour, including any attempt to earn a decent wage.

Nothing wrong with optimising the tax take, great idea, allows a maximum level of public service support. However, there is a level at which the disincentive to produce revenue begins to impact on GDP, reducing the overall take. We are so far down that path as to be analogous to pruning the apple tree at ground level. It’ll take decades to restore the commercial capabilities, (read job opportunities, export initiatives, technical expertise, capital investment base) we had a decade ago.

National’s problem is that, having moved so far left in an attempt to compete with the lolly scramble it’s policies look to be an ineffective tool to do the job. Even if fiscal common sense prevails and taxation is reduced to the levels required to maximise the crop they’ll likely be hamstrung by MMP and the narrow focus interests who’s main concern is saving the lesser bloated blue wattle wren, or similar.

idleidolidyll

6th October 2007, 09:52

Ocean1

6th October 2007, 09:55

For comparison, here is where our political parties lie on this chart:

The New Zealand Party Political Compass™

also interesting is that the gross abusers are not inherently right or left wing but as I've said before; authoriatarian (Bush and Mao would also be well into the upper two quadrants but opposite on the economic scale):

I'm more interested in where you got that singularly warped piece of propaganda from. And why libertairanism is considered as such a threat as to be described as responsible for quite such a wide range of influence...

Ocean1

6th October 2007, 10:04

No more posts from me today. Im now going to further engage in being a nasty capitalist for the rest of the day, delirious in the knowledge that a proportion of the tax dollars that are raped off me will be subsidising the ''Governments'' election bribery fund.

Shit. I had a really productive day all layed out. Now I can't be fooked.

If you have trouble buying anything actually produced in NZ next week blame Robert.

davereid

6th October 2007, 10:08

rubbish, you're making the usual mistake of confusing socialism with communism; that's just right wing propaganda along the lines of the stupid Yank Conservative line about 'left wing media'

Nope, no confusion here !

Socialists feel sorry for those at the bottom of the heap.

They are sure that they will make the world a better place if they lift the standard of living for those people by giving them health and education and a guaranteed minimum income.

They may actually be right !

But they also thinks its OK (good actually) to fund this noble idea by taking the money off thoses members of the community who aren't at the bottom of the heap.

And they are quite happy to take this money by force, even vast amounts of it, with lots of productive New Zealanders losing well over 50% of their top income in taxes.

carver

6th October 2007, 10:15

We will never restore NZ economic capabilities as long as both major parties buy into globalisation US style.
All we will do is end up working for foreign companies at minimum wages.

For relatively weak countries like NZ, economic protectionism is valid. Our very currency can be manipulated not just by nations but by individuals.

as socialisim grows, the state grows nearer to bankruptcy..
new york in the 60's is a classic case, as is the collapse of the USSR.
i heavily disagree with your ideals on economics, protectionisim just creates uncompeditive business globally.
we must provide what the world wants, its supply and demand.

terbang

6th October 2007, 10:23

Both communism and Islam are expansionist, as such they do not rest with what they have and will try and acquire or convert neighbours.

Wrong on the Islam bit there and are those people, from within christian ranks, that drag you out of bed on a saturday morning any less expansionist? They offer it in any language of your choice and a mass conversion before 8pm, if you so wish (so you can attend sunday service) in what ever colour you like. So how many Muslims have you had banging on your door? There is more to this than what you will find on CNN you know..!

scumdog

6th October 2007, 10:25

Nope, no confusion here !

Socialists feel sorry for those at the bottom of the heap.

They are sure that they will make the world a better place if they lift the standard of living for those people by giving them health and education and a guaranteed minimum income.

They may actually be right !

But they also thinks its OK (good actually) to fund this noble idea by taking the money off thoses members of the community who aren't at the bottom of the heap.

And they are quite happy to take this money by force, even vast amounts of it, with lots of productive New Zealanders losing well over 50% of their top income in taxes.

I concur - and too many of those leeching off the tax-payer do absolutely nothing to lift themselves up and be productive, paying and contributing members of society.

terbang

6th October 2007, 10:30

Shit. I had a really productive day all layed out. Now I can't be fooked.

If you have trouble buying anything actually produced in NZ next week blame Robert.
Yeah don't you love the fine print that you find on about the fourth label down . Soon to be on Norsewear too.

MADE IN CHINA

davereid

6th October 2007, 10:36

as socialisim grows, the state grows nearer to bankruptcy...we must provide what the world wants, its supply and demand.

Absolutely. We can't simply improve our standard of living by bumping the minimum adult wage up every year.

We actually need to be more productive.

Our incomes remain stubbornly low, and actually continue to slip backward in real terms.

Why ? Well unlike Australia we can't simply whip out in the backyard and dig up some more minerals.

We actually have to produce something that other people want.

The G'mint tries to "pick winners". But its very bad at it. The hi-tech revolution is a flop.

Of course there will be NZ companies who perform well in hi-tech industries, but it's a mistake to think that New Zealanders have a karma that will make us better at writing software than indians, or better at stuffing capacitors in PC boards than the chinese.

So what do we do ?

The answer is nothing. In fact the less we do, the better.

The best thing we could do is slash tax.

Heres how it works.

You and me both live in small towns, we are entrepreneurs and notice that there are lots of old people.

They are gonna die. So we set up as grave diggers.

We both buy a ute, an advert in the yellow pages and a shovel.

More than enough people die, we have full employment and are making a good wage, doing a grave a day each.

The difference is, you live in a high tax town, I live in a low tax town.

I take home a lot more money than you.

After meeting my families needs, I have extra cash. You don't, but you get family support so you are comfortable, just not cashed up.

I use my extra cash. A few beers, a motorcycle, and a new telly. This is good for the other businesses in my town.

But I also use some of cash for re-investment in my business. I buy myself a JCB digger.

Now I can dig all my 5 graves by lunchtime Tuesday. I take up the slack by doing some of the graves in your town that you can't dig. Now I'm making twice your income, and I'm finished early on Fridays.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The moral of the story :

Let the men and women who mortgage their houses to buy JCB diggers keep as much of the money they earn as possible. They will pick the winners and losers without government help. The economy will grow, and all who form part of it will be better off. Not just those who qualify for "working for families".

Ocean1

6th October 2007, 10:36

Yeah don't you love the fine print that you find on about the fourth label down . Soon to be on Norsewear too.

MADE IN CHINA

Apparently, (and surprisingly) not. I seem to have recently heard that they will remain in NZ, at least as far as socks go... Still, hardly the cutting edge, inventive, skill-based industry I'd like to see return.

Off to the salt mine, *sigh*

Coldrider

6th October 2007, 10:39

I concur - and too many of those leeching off the tax-payer do absolutely nothing to lift themselves up and be productive, paying and contributing members of society.
It is these leeches that consume the rest of the tax take, health, police, welfare, and generally pissing off citizens that pay taxes.

scumdog

6th October 2007, 10:48

It is these leeches that consume the rest of the tax take, health, police, welfare, and generally pissing off citizens that pay taxes.

Tell me about it!
Always whining about their 'rights', always know which agency to hold their hands out to, always going 'not guilty' 'cos they get legal aid, always bitching about what they don't have, always bleating about how life has done them wrong, always seem to be only scared of debt-collectors, losing their 'stash' and showers.....

Never actually getting ahead in life, always 'gunna' do something but never do despite having copiously more discretionary time than you or I.

The Stranger

6th October 2007, 11:20

Many people are surprised when they take this test. Often they are surprised because they vote on individual issues rather than on the broad platforms of each party.
The test is based on what the political parties themselves espouse as their philosophies as well as what their actual policies are. The entire website is a very interesting read.

So, here's a challenge to all, take the test and discover what your economic and philosophical leanings actually are:

http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

My results in the past have placed me firmly in the left liberal quadrant but I'll do it again for this exercise.
Be honest answering the questions and post your index here.

As requested.
However I rarely place a high value on a test which is on a subjective subject. Unlike say a math exam where the answers will usually be right or wrong there is no right answer here and circumstances may dictate a different answer than I would have given in many of the questions.

Waylander

6th October 2007, 11:49

and when I lived in Canada most Canadians I spoke to found it disgusting that yanks stole the name of two continents as a label for their people. Likewise many other continental Americans I've chatted with online.

So much for hearsay.

It's my little protest and tough luck if you or anyone else doesn't like it.
:Pokey: IF it makes you feel big and impotent.

terbang

6th October 2007, 11:55

:Pokey: IF it makes you feel big and impotent.
Oh groan, I was enjoying the dabate.

Waylander

6th October 2007, 11:59

Oh groan, I was enjoying the dabate.
I am far too hungover to be bothered. If he wants to be an ass then he can go right ahead and be one.

The Stranger

6th October 2007, 12:48

Wrong on the Islam bit there and are those people, from within christian ranks, that drag you out of bed on a saturday morning any less expansionist? They offer it in any language of your choice and a mass conversion before 8pm, if you so wish (so you can attend sunday service) in what ever colour you like. So how many Muslims have you had banging on your door? There is more to this than what you will find on CNN you know..!

I accept that I am a simple person terbang, so please explain this verse from the koran to me

9:29 "Fight those who believe not in God and the Last Day and do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden--such men as practice not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book--until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled."

I haven't had the pleasure of christians trying to drag me out of bed on a Saturday so I really can't comment about that one, however they wont be doing it twice.

Ocean1

6th October 2007, 13:00

As requested.
However I rarely place a high value on a test which is on a subjective subject. Unlike say a math exam where the answers will usually be right or wrong there is no right answer here and circumstances may dictate a different answer than I would have given in many of the questions.

So why bother using someone else’s pink crayons to paint your personal picture? The questionnaire used to produce the data set for that survey is more emotively spun than most I've seen. It paints me quite a different colour to most other similar tools.

Try this one, so simple there’s little room for spin… http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

What colour are you now?

The Stranger

6th October 2007, 13:18

So why bother using someone else’s pink crayons to paint your personal picture? The questionnaire used to produce the data set for that survey is more emotively spun than most I've seen. It paints me quite a different colour to most other similar tools.

Simply because III asked for it. I realised from the first question that it was not what I would consider a valid test however.

Try this one, so simple there’s little room for spin… http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

What colour are you now?

Quite remarkable how much I had changed since the last time I took one of these tests this morning.

idleidolidyll

6th October 2007, 19:22

I'm more interested in where you got that singularly warped piece of propaganda from. And why libertairanism is considered as such a threat as to be described as responsible for quite such a wide range of influence...

libertarian?

when did i ever blame liberatarians for such a thing?

look at the charts, the ACT party is neutral on that index and the violence comes from fascism be it left or right wing

idleidolidyll

6th October 2007, 19:24

Nope, no confusion here !

Socialists feel sorry for those at the bottom of the heap.

They are sure that they will make the world a better place if they lift the standard of living for those people by giving them health and education and a guaranteed minimum income.

They may actually be right !

But they also thinks its OK (good actually) to fund this noble idea by taking the money off thoses members of the community who aren't at the bottom of the heap.

And they are quite happy to take this money by force, even vast amounts of it, with lots of productive New Zealanders losing well over 50% of their top income in taxes.

No, we feel compassion for humanity. It's a ridiculous myth that socialists are not hard working people.
The right wing fascists like to spin lots of those myths; they're deadly afraid that humanitarianism eats away at their profit margins.

idleidolidyll

6th October 2007, 19:28

I'm more interested in where you got that singularly warped piece of propaganda from. And why libertairanism is considered as such a threat as to be described as responsible for quite such a wide range of influence...

what propaganda?

read the damn website; it's in english and very well explained.

unlike simplistic left/right measures, it takes much more into account and gives a clearer picture. It's obvious that something is drastically wrong with the left/right system or measure given there is so much confusion and ignorance with regard to terminology, beliefs and positioning.

idleidolidyll

6th October 2007, 19:32

But they also thinks its OK (good actually) to fund this noble idea by taking the money off thoses members of the community who aren't at the bottom of the heap.

And they are quite happy to take this money by force, even vast amounts of it, with lots of productive New Zealanders losing well over 50% of their top income in taxes.

The worse way is the Yank way. In effect any yank who wants the same kinds of services qwe get must pay up to $1000 per month in insurances. That's why so many don't have insurance and why so many miss out.

Add to that the fact that Yanks are paying this out of their post tax income while ours is from pre tax income and the number can be multiplied by the Yank tax %

Studies, particularly in health cover, show that NZ's system, the one we like to moan about, reaches more people more effectively than almost any other in the developed world. The only point yanks beat us on is the ability of the extremely rich to buy extremely expensive treatments (and wealthy Kiwis can do that anyway by travelling to the US)

Ditto ACC etc

idleidolidyll

6th October 2007, 19:35

as socialisim grows, the state grows nearer to bankruptcy..
new york in the 60's is a classic case, as is the collapse of the USSR.
i heavily disagree with your ideals on economics, protectionisim just creates uncompeditive business globally.
we must provide what the world wants, its supply and demand.

over the last 20 odd years as we have let down our barriers and bought into that nonsense, our real incomes have dropped drastically along with our quality of life index. Foreign companies have exported our profits, monopolised our business sectors and paid us minimum wages: lose lose situation.

Indiana_Jones

6th October 2007, 19:36

The thing I find annoying/puzzling is that people seem to think Tory's only care about money.

-Indy

Robert Taylor

6th October 2007, 19:47

John Fizgerald Kennedy quoted to the effect...''it is not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country''

Too many people look to Government to bail them out or to provide some form of gravy train and dont stop to think where the money comes from in the first place.

Personally I hate the term Socialism with a vengeance, the word is historically synonomous with failure. As I have said in the past ''social conscience'' and a handup rather than a handout. People at the top are ripping the system off, so are many at the bottom and it is the middle that is paying for all this.

Look at Helen Mugabes overseas junkets...the great pacifist of our time is also the great hypocrite of our time. Filmed at many international commemorations to past conflicts, where good people infinitely better than her gave their lives in ( some ) justified conflicts against extremism.

There is a consistent theme that I am sure everyone can agree upon, POWER CORRUPTS. Be it Capitalism, communism or whatever.

SPman

6th October 2007, 19:48

So why bother using someone else’s pink crayons to paint your personal picture? The questionnaire used to produce the data set for that survey is more emotively spun than most I've seen. It paints me quite a different colour to most other similar tools.

Try this one, so simple there’s little room for spin… http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

What colour are you now?

Well well - about the same spot on both tests! A liberal lefty, or a slightly left of Ghandi!

and I'd agree with that, but my views are not entrenched, as long as the arguements used employ facts - used in context.

Sidling up to big business multi nationalism is a one way trip - your money in their pockets!

Since the early 90's, the middle NZ'ers effective wage has plummeted - most of the damage being done under the National government, which did more to shoot this country in the foot, than most governments other than Roger fucking Douglas and his minions! In the US, real incomes have dropped for the lower and middle income sectors as well, as have Australians - all despite a record income economy. Under neocon "free trade" policies, the only incomes rocketing, are those in the top 5% income bracket. "Trickle down effect" is a sick joke, that doesn't work in practice, and most Western countries manufacturing, and now (in WA, anyway) food industries, have been decimated, as factories buy into near "slave labour" economies in developing countries, producing cheap crap they can sell to the masses and it's just as well it's cheap, because that's all they can afford anyway!.

Ocean1

6th October 2007, 20:23

libertarian?

when did i ever blame liberatarians for such a thing?

look at the charts, the ACT party is neutral on that index and the violence comes from fascism be it left or right wing

You look at the fucking charts. No doubt those who consider themselves communists have no problem being also labelled collectivists. I very much doubt whether you'll find too many right wing liberals happy to be sub-categorised as libertarians, or libertarians pleased to be called anarchists. The overall flavour of the site is east European, left, intellectually sparse and graphically inept.

As for state sanctioned violence? it's historically available from every corner of the political spectrum EXCEPT that represented in the lower extremities of your chart.

terbang

7th October 2007, 08:56

9:29 "Fight those who believe not in God and the Last Day and do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden--such men as practice not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book--until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled."

What you havent been visited by Jehovas witness..? Without a detailed explanation right now, though I will endeavor to ask on my next rotation (Saudi Arabia). I believe that it refers more to the preservation of the religion rather than expansion as you initially assert. From the crusades to recent there have been more attacks on Islam by extremist Christianity than the other way. So what is the basis for your expansionism theory.

idleidolidyll

7th October 2007, 09:19

You look at the fucking charts. No doubt those who consider themselves communists have no problem being also labelled collectivists. I very much doubt whether you'll find too many right wing liberals happy to be sub-categorised as libertarians, or libertarians pleased to be called anarchists. The overall flavour of the site is east European, left, intellectually sparse and graphically inept.

As for state sanctioned violence? it's historically available from every corner of the political spectrum EXCEPT that represented in the lower extremities of your chart.

as i said, some people are pissed that they don't score where they think they should in comparison to the policies of the political parties themselves.

BTW: communism IS collectivism pretty much by definition. Your hard cheese argument is a rather large yawn. As for libertarians being fascists, that's YOUR call not the charts or mine. The name 'libertarian' is a misnomer IMO; rather than allowing personal liberties, libertarians generally want it their way or no way. Most a re moderates and fall neutral on that index but taken to extreme and abused, it does became fascism as do any of the economic indicators when authoritarianism takes control.

Now try to get this through to your brain: it's not MY chart. Read the website, it's a chart based on research and science. Conservatives and right wingers today eschew science I know but there it is in plain sight and not just the one dimensional left/right propaganda usually offered by extreme right wing fascists like Bush.

As for extreme right wingers being sub categorised as libertarians. It makes no difference at all what they LIKE. This is a comparison of policy against beliefs and if that's where they fall, that's where they fall. They lie with milton Freidman, a paragon of right wing economic policy and that's perfect. When they become authoritarian AND subscribe to Freidmans crap, they move toward fascism as per Bush (extreme right wing fascist).

I find it hilarious that you vilify this as Euro Left just because you seem to be unable to grasp the science. That's a typical right wing reaction; when something doesn't go your way; try to vilify it and call it leftie. I scoff at that bullshit.

davereid

7th October 2007, 09:21

No, we feel compassion for humanity. It's a ridiculous myth that socialists are not hard working people.

Huh ? I never said that socialists were lazy.

And you should not assume that capitalists don't feel compassion for humanity. Bill Gates gives away a fortune every year.

The difference is that socialists think they have the right to feel compassion with other peoples money, and they can take that money using force.

Capitalists just use their own money.

idleidolidyll

7th October 2007, 09:23

John Fizgerald Kennedy quoted to the effect...''it is not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country''

mindless nationalism like that got them Bush and the illegal abusive war in Iraq.

we ARE the country. Kennedy's quote was propaganda in a country where the people are answerable to the government not the other way around. Successive law changes over the last century have turned the US into a corporate fascist state where the citizens are ignored the moment the elections are over.

Government is there to serve the people, NOT vice versa or to serve the corporations.

idleidolidyll

7th October 2007, 09:25

Huh ? I never said that socialists were lazy.

And you should not assume that capitalists don't feel compassion for humanity. Bill Gates gives away a fortune every year.

The difference is that socialists think they have the right to feel compassion with other peoples money, and they can take that money using force.

Capitalists just use their own money.

fallacies are hilarious. Bill Gates is so disgustingly rich on the back of his monopoly that he can afford to try and brighten his legacy with the money he gives. Good on him but in effect he is no more worthy than an ordinary Joe who donates $20 per week.

As for the lazy socialist comment, that's been the ridiculous tone of many of the right/fascist arguments here. It's fucking stupid.

idleidolidyll

7th October 2007, 09:36

I very much doubt whether you'll find too many right wing liberals happy to be sub-categorised as libertarians, or libertarians pleased to be called anarchists.

Tell me, what're the policies of the Libertarians?

Aren't they about massive reduction of government and a far greater emphasis on the individual and what they want to do themselves?

Sounds like anarchy to me.

Anarchy from Wikipedia (choose another if you wish):

"Absence of government; a state of lawlessness due to beliefs that people are inherently good and can organize themselves without government or bureaucracies; another type of political order."[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy#_note-0)
"A theoretical social state in which there is no governing person or body of persons, but each individual has absolute liberty (without the implication of disorder)."[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy#_note-1)
"Absence or non-recognition of authority in any given sphere."[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy#_note-2) or, simply, (from Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): an-, "without" and Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): -archy, "leadership")

Without leadership. Hence, the common use of anarchism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism) as a system of organisation without leaders.that's funny, the shoe seems to fit quite well.

Robert Taylor

7th October 2007, 10:30

mindless nationalism like that got them Bush and the illegal abusive war in Iraq.

we ARE the country. Kennedy's quote was propaganda in a country where the people are answerable to the government not the other way around. Successive law changes over the last century have turned the US into a corporate fascist state where the citizens are ignored the moment the elections are over.

Government is there to serve the people, NOT vice versa or to serve the corporations.

So who in the hell is the sisterhood serving? Certainly not Joe Average in NZ.

scumdog

7th October 2007, 10:33

fallacies are hilarious. Bill Gates is so disgustingly rich on the back of his monopoly that he can afford to try and brighten his legacy with the money he gives. .

Hmm, I detect you have a problem that somebody gets himself rich??

In your eyes what SHOULD he have done with his life??

Robert Taylor

7th October 2007, 10:34

scumdog

7th October 2007, 10:37

I agree with what you have said. But also someone that is on the bones of his butt ( most likely as a result of socialism ) that gives $20 to charity may indeed be making a bigger sacrifice than Bill Gates.

However noble that donation of $20 may be it does not have the same practical impact of $2,000,000 for the recipients.

Robert Taylor

7th October 2007, 10:43

Huh ? I never said that socialists were lazy.

And you should not assume that capitalists don't feel compassion for humanity. Bill Gates gives away a fortune every year.

The difference is that socialists think they have the right to feel compassion with other peoples money, and they can take that money using force.

Capitalists just use their own money.

As an overworked dirty filthy thieving capitalist I have used plenty of my own filthy money helping others in the sport of Motorcycle road racing. Call that socialism or whatever. And Ill never see much of that back because some that I have given it to have a take take take world owes me a living mentality. Conmem.

But that does not deter from the many good people that I have helped and will continue to do so.

Unlike some other higher profile sports none of this has been on the back of taxpayers money.

Robert Taylor

7th October 2007, 10:48

However noble that donation of $20 may be it does not have the same practical impact of $2,000,000 for the recipients.

I agree. Michael Schumacher is another good example of one who has donated millions. Perhaps these sort of people are in fact the ''ultimate redistributors'' The difference being that people have been happy to part with money to witness their performance firsthand.

Hitcher

7th October 2007, 13:47

the Skyhawks are still at Ohakea

The Skyhawks are in Safe Air's big shed at RNZAF Woodbourne.

The Stranger

7th October 2007, 16:41

What value is McDonalds etc to NZ? Most of these big corporations pay minimum wages and destroy local business, then they send their profits offshore. This is something Winston Peters seems to understand but he's seriously flawed in other areas.

So I have been trying to work this one out idle and am fucked if I can see the problem.

Way I see it is this.
Macs give us, the consumer, choice, prior to this we had fish & chips.

The bring competition. I must admit, I have not done any study on this, but anecdotally I doubt it is much dearer to eat out these days than to shop, purchase, store, prepare and cook your own food and do the dishes etc after. Either way I think it would be hard to dispute that competition does tend to benefit the consumer on a cost basis. Accepted there are other measures, however, given the choices we now have you can soon vote with your feet.

Macs assembles it's product apparently from materials sourced locally, so a lot of local business profit from supplying milk, meat, breads, packaging, rubbish collection etc etc. Things like achitectural, engineering and IT and construction are of course sourced locally also.

In addition to the indirect employment means mentioned above, Macs supply a lot of jobs directly. Now many of these are low paid and perhaps minimum wage jobs. That said, someone somewhere has to earn the minimum wage and as I see it one likely alternative to minimum is no job. No job probably means on the dole. So Macs potentially help the country enormously by taking a percentage of people that would otherwise cost us a lot (of dole) and turn them into contributors (tax payers).

So the profits go overseas. Well not all of it. The suppliers presumably profit, the salary and wage earners profit, I am sure the franchisee profits and presumably they all pay some taxes that otherwise would not have been collected. But even with a portion of their turnover going overseas how is this inherently bad.

How also does it differ say from purchasing a motorcycle, which presumably is acceptable as you would appear to have a few.
A motorcycle is made from materials sourced from overseas, assembled with foregin labour, in plants constructed in another land. We collect little tax from the whole procees (ignoring GST as this is also charged on Macs).

Way I see it is if Macs is bad, motorcycle is WAY bad.
Where have I got my wires crossed please?

Swoop

7th October 2007, 18:48

Mc Donalds does not pay youth rates any longer. The staff are placed on the adult wage scale from the beginning.
Even better opportunities for young people getting into the workforce.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.cfm?c_id=189&objectid=10413805

Mr Merde

7th October 2007, 22:42

.....
Government is there to serve the people, NOT vice versa or to serve the corporations.

Thats the ideal situation unfortunately.

What we get in this "the real world" is government that decides that, beacuse they managed to convince enough people that they may have a means to give them more, they know what is best for us and we shouldnt even question them.

The only time they pay even lip service to us the people, is election time where we are conned tha we can make a difference.

We are not served by the government we are governed by them. They are our lords and we at best are their servants, at worse their serfs.

Sorry if I sound cynical but I personally have serious concerns about a person or group of people who wish to have power over another group.
I honestly believe that those we have in govenment now are the biggest criminals we have and that they do it all in the name of "whats best for us" whilst lining their pockets with everything they can get.

Timber020

7th October 2007, 23:57

Thats the ideal situation unfortunately.

What we get in this "the real world" is government that decides that, beacuse they managed to convince enough people that they may have a means to give them more, they know what is best for us and we shouldnt even question them.

The only time they pay even lip service to us the people, is election time where we are conned tha we can make a difference.

We are not served by the government we are governed by them. They are our lords and we at best are their servants, at worse their serfs.

Sorry if I sound cynical but I personally have serious concerns about a person or group of people who wish to have power over another group.
I honestly believe that those we have in govenment now are the biggest criminals we have and that they do it all in the name of "whats best for us" whilst lining their pockets with everything they can get.

Where as the "gone by lunchtime" crowd have only the good of ALL in NZ firmly in there sights. Yeah right.

I would prefer to be overseen by a government that the people have had some hand in puting in power and supporting than have the guys with the biggest checkbooks making the rules and having more control than they currently have. Ive seen enough of that when I lived in the US, and what has happened historically (The marines "helped" make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. "helped" make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. "helped" in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. "helped" purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. "brought light" to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. "helped" make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 they "helped" see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested) and it simply sucks. Big guys win, govt becomes there bitch, everyone else has to keep all propped up. Not much has changed if you Look at whats gone on in Iraq.

Those who look at improving the country as a purely economical exercise will do it at the cost of others, as the truth is that they are only really trying to improve there own wealth most of the time, its just conveniant comfort for them to think some of their buddies might get rich to and others might get jobs out of it to.
Look at what the American liberty league tried to do in the 30's, all good honest patriotic respected top businessmen who thought a facist dictator would more profitable sence than having a voted in president, and took steps to try to overthrow FDR in a violent coup.

The system we have stinks but it beats most of the alternatives.

idleidolidyll

8th October 2007, 05:25

nadroj

8th October 2007, 06:03

The Skyhawks are in Safe Air's big shed at RNZAF Woodbourne.

Not for long....
They are being prepared with a waterproofing for outside storeage to make room for C130 makeovers.

Robert Taylor

8th October 2007, 09:49

Not for long....
They are being prepared with a waterproofing for outside storeage to make room for C130 makeovers.

Well then, they could be reinstated if the incoming majority National Govt has the intestinal fortitude to do so, excepting the head moron in the sisterhood also deliberately did her best to destroy the infrastructure that supported them. This is one area that tax dollars should be appropriately spent, subject to an upgrade with more modern strike jets.

scumdog

8th October 2007, 09:56

Of the two, an outright National win would be the greatest tragedy. National will sell out to foreign interests in a blink.

Unlike Labour who seem content to let NZ business after NZ business close their doors and drift off-shore as they are at present....?

kelleyb

8th October 2007, 10:15

Swiss Divided on Immigration Issues (http://www.iht.com/bin/print.php?id=7787528)

A bit off topic with regards to Kiwi politics, but I thought this was an interesting article on the upcoming elections in Switzerland.

Far-right Swiss party divides nation on immigrant issue
By Elaine Sciolino
Sunday, October 7, 2007
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SCHWERZENBACH, Switzerland: The posters taped on the walls at a political rally here capture the rawness of Switzerland's national electoral campaign: Three white sheep stand on the Swiss flag, as one of them kicks a single black sheep away.

"For Greater Security," the poster reads.

The poster is not the creation of a fringe movement, but of the most powerful party in Switzerland's federal Parliament and a member of the coalition government, an extreme-right party called the Swiss People's Party, or SVP. It has been distributed in a mass mailing to Swiss households, reproduced in newspapers and magazines and hung as huge billboards across the country.

As voters prepare to go to the polls for a general election in two weeks, the poster - and the party's underlying message - has polarized a country that prides itself on peaceful consensus in politics, neutrality in foreign policy and tolerance in human relations.

Suddenly, the campaign has turned into a nationwide debate over the place of immigrants in one of the world's oldest democracies and over what it means to be Swiss.

"The poster is disgusting, unacceptable," Micheline Calmy-Rey, president of Switzerland under a rotation system, said in an interview. "It stigmatizes others and plays on the fear factor and in that sense it's dangerous. The campaign does not correspond to Switzerland's multicultural openness to the world. And I am asking all Swiss who do not agree with its message to have the courage to speak out."

Interior Minister Pascal Couchepin, of the Free Democratic Party, has even suggested that the SVP's worship of Christoph Blocher, the billionaire who is the party's driving force and the current justice minister, is reminiscent of that of Italian Fascists for Mussolini.

On Saturday, a march of several thousand SVP supporters in Bern ended in clashes between hundreds of opposing demonstrators, who threw rocks, and riot police officers, who used tear gas to disperse them. The opponents of the SVP rally, organized by a group called the "Black Sheep Committee," were trying to prevent the SVP supporters from marching to Parliament.]

The message of the party resonates loudly among voters who have seen the country of 7.5 million people become a haven for foreigners, including political refugees from places like Kosovo and Rwanda. Polls indicate that the rightist party is poised to win the largest number of seats in Parliament in the election, as it did in national elections in 2003, when its populist language gave it nearly 27 percent of the vote.

"Our political enemies think the poster is racist, but it just gives a simple message," said Bruno Walliser, a chimney sweep who is running for Parliament on the party ticket at the Schwerzenbach rally, on a farm outside of Zurich. "The black sheep is not any black sheep that doesn't fit into the family. It's the foreign criminal who doesn't belong here, the one that doesn't obey Swiss law. We don't want him."

More than 20 percent of Swiss inhabitants are foreign nationals, and the SVP argues that a disproportionate number of them are law-breakers. The party says many of the country's drug dealers are foreign, and according to federal statistics about 70 percent of the prison population is non-Swiss.

As part of its platform, the SVP party has launched a campaign seeking the 100,000 signatures necessary to force a referendum to allow judges to deport foreigners who commit serious crimes after they have served their prison sentences. More ominously, the measure also calls for the deportation of the entire family of a convicted criminal under the age of 18.

Human rights advocates warn that the initiative is reminiscent of the Nazi practice of Sippenhaft, or kin liability, under which relatives of criminals were held responsible and punished for their crimes.

The party's political campaign has a much broader agenda than simply fighting crime. Its subliminal message is that the influx of foreigners has somehow polluted Swiss society, straining the social welfare system and threatening the very identity of the country.

Unlike France, where the far-right National Front leader, Jean-Marie Le Pen, campaigned for president last spring alongside black and ethnic Arab supporters, the SVP has taken a much cruder us-against-them approach.

The party's short, three-part film entitled "Heaven or Hell" in the current campaign clearly lays out its message. In the first segment, young men shoot heroin, steal handbags from old ladies, kick and beat up schoolboys, wield knives, and carry off a young woman. The second segment shows Muslims living in Switzerland - women in head scarves, men sitting not working.

The third segment shows "heavenly" Switzerland: men in suits rushing to work, logos of Swiss multinational corporations, farm harvests, experiments in laboratories, lakes, mountains, churches and goats. "The choice is clear: my home, our security," the film states.

It was withdrawn from the party's Web site after the male actors sued, arguing they were unaware of its purpose. But over beer and bratwurst at the Schwerzenbach political rally, Walliser screened it for the audience, saying, "I'm taking the liberty to show it anyway."

For Nelly Schneider, a 49-year-old secretary, the party's approach is "a little bit crass," but appealing nevertheless. "These foreigners abuse the system," she said after Walliser's presentation.

As most of the rest of Europe has moved to integrate, Switzerland has fiercely guarded its independence, staying out of the 27-country European Union and maintaining its status as a tax haven for the wealthy. It has perhaps the longest and most arduous process to become a citizen in all of Europe. Candidates typically must wait 12 years before being considered for citizenship.

Three years ago, the SVP blocked a move to liberalize the citizenship process, using the image of dark-skinned hands snatching at Swiss passports. And though the specter of terrorism has not been a driving issue in the country, some posters in southern Switzerland at the time showed a mock Swiss passport held by Osama bin Laden.

Foreigners, who make up one-fourth of the Swiss work force, complain that it is harder to get a job or rent an apartment without a Swiss passport, and that they endure harassment that Swiss citizens do not.

James Philippe, a 28-year-old Haitian who has lived in Switzerland for 14 years and works for Streetchurch, a Protestant storefront community organization, and as a hip-hop instructor, said he is regularly stopped by the police and required to show his papers and submit to body searches. He speaks German, French, Creole and English, but has yet to receive a Swiss passport.

"The police treat me like I'm somehow not human," he said.

End of Article.