Feeling a little over-taxed this morning?

[Finn]

An argument one often hears to try and convince people, that we shouldn’t get some of our taxes back, is that yes we had a big surplus this year, but hey look at the projections for future years - that surplus won’t be so large.

So let us review the history of Treasury projections of the Operating Balance or surplus.

The 2003/04 surplus was $7.4 billion. It was originally forecast to be $3.2 billion.

The 2004/05 surplus was $5.8 billion. It was originally forecast to be $2.7 billion.

The 2005/06 surplus was $11.5 billion. It was originally forecast to be $4.2 billion.

The 2006/07 surplus was $8.7 billion. It was originally forecast to be $6.2 billion.

Now to be fair to Treasury, forecasting the income and expenditure for an entire country is difficult. Hell it can be hard to forecast earnings for a single company, let alone all of them. Nevertheless their conservatism is starting to affect the credibility of the forecasts.

I’m more forgiving of a $6 billion change from an initial forecast four years out, to an actual than a smaller change over a smaller time period. But let’s look at how the forecasts for 06/07 have changes over the years:

May 2003 = $6.2 billion
May 2004 = $5.1 billion
May 2005 = $5.3 billion
May 2006 = $5.8 billion
Dec 2006 = $6.3 billion
May 2007 = $6.6 billion
June 2007 = $8.7 billion (actual)

Yes the surplus to 30 June was $2.1 billion higher than when the Budget came out in May.

Now this year’s surplus was forecast in the BEFU to be $6.4 billion. That means it could well be over $9 billion, which would make the surplus over five years exceed $40 billion... of your money.

From the Dom Post...

What it is proof of is that his Government is over-taxing New Zealanders, a bad practice that insulates ministers and officials from spending mistakes - because they can be written off without consequence - and makes individuals more dependent upon the state.

Treasury’s view that the state is on a “structurally higher” revenue track than previously believed makes some sort of announcement about tax cuts almost inevitable in next year’s Budget, which conveniently falls just a few months before the election. But, if past experience is anything to go by, the amounts involved will be small and the wait to receive them long. This is not a government that relishes relinquishing its grip on individuals’ wallets. Previously it has argued that returning surplus revenue to those who earned it would fuel inflation, a self-serving argument that has encouraged ministers and officials to bid opportunistically for the surplus cash.

Dr Cullen has previously argued that he does not need a tax cut. Given his $255,000 salary as deputy prime minister and the generous superannuation fund waiting for him in retirement it is difficult to disagree with him.

But there is a world of difference between earning $4900 a week and $1150 - the amount earned by someone on a $60,000 salary.

I would also observe that Dr Cullen doesn’t need taxpayer funded superannuation, yet he is happy enough to take that, yet not happy to give tax cuts, on the basis he personally doesn’t need them. Somewhat inconsistent.

Nice going Labour.

[Usarka]

The surplus is there for a good reason. labour will use it next year to buy votes before the election.

[deanohit]

Well hell, my vote is for sale for $10000 if they want it. Maybe should start an auction on Trademe fto make it easy for them to buy it.

[Mr Merde]

The surplus is there for a good reason. labour will use it next year to buy votes before the election.


Or to fund the re election campaign

[roogazza]

That little smurf cullen gives me the shits !!!! G.

[jrandom]

Do National have a policy of reducing the personal tax rates and/or increasing threshholds should they win the next term?

[Finn]

Do National have a policy of reducing the personal tax rates and/or increasing threshholds should they win the next term?

Too early yet, but they've got one hell of a mess to clean up first. I have personally spoken to John Key about tax amongst other things and he certainly inspires confidence.

[BarBender]

Big bribefest on its way....
Lollynomics indeed.

[vifferman]

It's disturbing given that 'they' are talking about taxing us even more, because we're naughty and use too much of the expensive petrol they derive so much of the surplus from, and drive too many of the shitty cars car dealers are allowed to import and sell at inflated prices because a previous Gubmint decided we should have a "free market economy".
Which no-one else in the world has.

Coz it's dumb.

What's more disturbing than the surplus is how good our economy could've been if that arsehole Muldoon hadn't scrapped the national superannuation scheme, pilfered its contents, and sold off all the silverware for pathetic prices in a depressed world market.
If he was smarter, he would've waited till TardMe was invented and sold it on there. He would've got a few shekels more, and some interesting feedback.

Apparently, we'd have the highest level of savings/investment per capita in the developed world (over$110k each), and one of the healthiest economies.

Stupid pharkin politicians. :Pokey:

[ManDownUnder]

Mate I always feel over taxed but thanks for reminding me exactly how much I'm being fleeced.

At least our healthcare, education and justice systems are world class.... NOT.

So where does it all go? Paying off debt? Helping people live beyond their means? 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation dole bludgers?

... nifty...

[Mr Merde]

........
So where does it all go? Paying off debt? Helping people live beyond their means? 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation dole bludgers?

... nifty...


I, also, would love an answer to this question.

We have 50,000 governmental employees. Their wages is a big slice of the pie.

The armed forces, the police, transport, get sod all of the divvy.

There has always seemed to be a very distinct lack of accountability with regards to the disposal of what is essentially public monies. The government departments seem to make it very hard to actually discern where thier respective budgets are spent or even why they need budgets of a particular size.

Dont forget that apart fron our personal income tax we are also taxed on everything we purchase and even pay taxes on taxes.

I would not be very supprised that if one were to seriously look into how much the government steals back, that you would find that you only recieve 30-40 % of your earnings.

Some sort of accountability needs to be implemented. If only to actually promote a trust in our government. Something which is severely lacking today.

[Swoop]

A damn good thing that HALF A BILLION dollars was NOT spent on the health system. Presumably this was in the health budget, but Scrooge McCullen slid it into his vote-purchasing account instead!:mad:

[tri boy]

Indeed, we should be getting a better deal re taxation, and I also question alot of the needless spending. But looking at the other side of the coin, (no pun intended), at least it is a surplus, that hasn't got us running cap in hand to the other countries to help bail us out of a massive deficit like the US will ultimately need to do.
If you wish to view total incompetence with regards to Govt spending, check out the US treasury. 800+ Billion in dept, and growing every day. Those loans will get called in, and industry will not be able to save them.
The new Roman Empire that is America, is getting close to a major collapse.
MHO.

[Krayy]

Bugger a tax cut, give me a rebate.

Better still, can the govt please f**kin front up and pay for the repairs to my leaky home. If I ever meet the arshole who decided to dissolve the BIA when the leaky homes crisis hit. I'll kick his arse for free. :angry2:

[Krayy]

...hell, am I really that angry?

[crshbndct]

i know why we have got such a big surplus:

WAR ON AUSTRALIA!!!! the idea is to throw all our eggs and tax into one basket by saving up enough to attack and take over australia, it doesnt matter if our infrastructure suffers, as we will just take over theirs..

the revolution is coming!!

[The Pastor]

[QUOTE=Mr Merde;1242399]
I would not be very supprised that if one were to seriously look into how much the government steals back, that you would find that you only recieve 30-40 % of your earnings.
[QUOTE]


And thats for minimum wage earners. It only goes up and up when you get more money.


Heres an idea, why don't they put like 5 billion dollers in the bank and earn intrest off it then reduce income tax % by the ammount of income they get from the intrest.

At 7.65% intrest, they would earn 382 million per year (ok some sort of tax would come out of that ... i think - not sure if my math is correct) then divide that buy how many income earners there are in nz and you'd probably get 100 bux back a year. or somthing _b

[Ocean1]

Mate I always feel over taxed but thanks for reminding me exactly how much I'm being fleeced.

At least our healthcare, education and justice systems are world class.... NOT.

So where does it all go? Paying off debt? Helping people live beyond their means? 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation dole bludgers?

... nifty...

Yeah, fuckit Finn, I sorta forget several times a day exactly how little of my working week is actually for me. Thanks for the reminder. :Pokey:

Last time I looked everything I earn after 09:30 Wednesday morning belongs to Hullen. And that's from a 6 day week. :doh:

Has anyone got any actual, real, unspun data on where it goes? Somat real simple, a fekin big pie chart mebe... I do know dole bludgers siphon off less than most believe, but what about the multitude of less obvious parasitic leakage?

One bit I do have a reasonable inside take on is health, to health magagement experts our system looks better than most, the UK being the only one really standing out as better, they do spend shitloads more than us on both health and retirement though. The US health system is often compared to ours, simply because it's funding is radically different. Our health service is universally considered far superior and costs about NZ$4.2K/pa for each odf us, compared to about US$7K/pa for a similar level of service in the US. Like a lot of other politically sensitive industries the facts get buried by continual ambushes by the media, the facts are quite different to public opinion.

[Pumba]

Personally I wouldnt mind them tacking the tax the take if they were actually doing somthing productive with the money, HOWEVER, with the current state of the health and education system, to use as an example, I would like my money back so I can pay for all the private services I need because this goverment is managing to cock that up.

Not that any other government would be any better, thay are all as bad as one another.

[Dilligaf]

I'll think you find that dole bludgers are the least of our worries when it comes to who is getting all the moolah.
Listen more carefully when it comes to when the news reports the opening of something or other - case in point the new prison in the Waikato... Iwi payments, iwi consultations. Consultancy fees would have to be one of the biggest leeches that this government allows.
I am the treasurer of a non for profit organisation and got the book from our local council about which companies / trusts / government grants are up for grabs. I was completely blown away how many millions are up for offer for Maori only groups from Aunty Helen.
Another gem was a waka made for some group from a grant of half a million.
And underfloor heating for our prisoners doesn't come cheap.

[Robert Taylor]

The surplus is there for a good reason. labour will use it next year to buy votes before the election.

Exactly. There is a strong case that if income tax was slashed business would prosper and the total tax take may actually increase. And those 50,000 extra civil servants wouldnt be needed and would be able to be employed in REAL jobs.

Where tax isnt rightfully spent is on having a credible and modern Air Strike Force, to show that at least we have the intent to defend our assets inclusive of food production and fresh water.

[PirateJafa]

If you wish to view total incompetence with regards to Govt spending, check out the US treasury. 800+ Billion in dept, and growing every day. Those loans will get called in, and industry will not be able to save them.

I had an American trying to convince me the other day that this was a good thing...

[tri boy]

I had an American trying to convince me the other day that this was a good thing...

Was he a sub prime mortage agent?:lol:

[Delerium]

Disregard. doesnt matter.

[Scouse]

And thats for minimum wage earners. It only goes up and up when you get more money.


Heres an idea, why don't they put like 5 billion dollers in the bank and earn intrest off it then reduce income tax % by the ammount of income they get from the intrest.

At 7.65% intrest, they would earn 382 million per year (ok some sort of tax would come out of that ... i think - not sure if my math is correct) then divide that buy how many income earners there are in nz and you'd probably get 100 bux back a year. or somthing _bI think this lad is a bit of a Mongo

[The Pastor]

I think this lad is a bit of a Mongo
your catching on shirlock.

[Hitcher]

I blame the Labour Gummint!

[Paul in NZ]

We chatted about this today while we were wasting the companies time...

99% of the folks here were all up for a tax break even if it was like $10 a pay but no one was keen on my idea of investing the surplus in improved infrastructure like another hydro project (or other electric power plant type) or better public transport... 'Fuck' that was the cry - its my fuckin money why should I care about cheap power or busses for other peoples bloody kids...

I've changed my mind - spend the $$ on unifying the country and getting people to give a shit about others again...

[Finn]

I've changed my mind - spend the $$ on unifying the country and getting people to give a shit about others again...

Money can't buy you love Paul. They even made a song about it.

[Usarka]

I've changed my mind - spend the $$ on unifying the country and getting people to give a shit about others again...

Don't worry Helens going to make a law that we have to give a shit about each other, but the cops aren't expected to enforce it.

[Sanx]

Money can't buy you love Paul. They even made a song about it.

Nope, but it can buy you the nearest possible substitute.

[Macktheknife]

Money also can't buy happiness... but it does buy you a much better class of unhappy.


Seriously though, I believe the Swedish model is still regarded as very efficient. From memory, personal tax is about 65%, but all medical and dental visits are free, including surgery costs to a limited amount. Public transport is free and frequent in most city areas and people are well informed of the services their taxes go on.
Doesn't sound bad to me, I don't mind paying so much as long as I can see where it is going and see some value in it.

[Wolf]

Seriously though, I believe the Swedish model is still regarded as very efficient. From memory, personal tax is about 65%, but all medical and dental visits are free, including surgery costs to a limited amount. Public transport is free and frequent in most city areas and people are well informed of the services their taxes go on.
Doesn't sound bad to me, I don't mind paying so much as long as I can see where it is going and see some value in it.
65% taxation to not have to pay $2.40 to save a half-hour walk (or a 15-minute walk, all costs the same) EVER and not pay 40+ dollars to visit a GP for 15 minutes (even more for the same amount of time at a dentist) EVER?

And free surgery and reliable public transport...

SHIT YEAH!

Seriously, I know people who'd make heaps out of that deal, they're spending so much on medical or dental

[Grahameeboy]

Well it was a surplus so a positive.

I wonder how much it would cost the Govt to reduce Gst on essential items, like food, power........oh and motorbikes of course, or even scrap it altogether.

Anyone got any figures?

I don't mind paying income tax but then having to pay purchase tax as well is a bit much..mind you in the UK VAT is 17.5%.

As mentioned before, more money to spend benefits business and benefits the Govt's piggy bank with the extra Income Tax earned from the extra spending and tax payers feel they have a choice with their money.....like buying a house.

Keanes Theory.

[cowpoos]

An argument one often hears to try and convince people, that we shouldn’t get some of our taxes back, is that yes we had a big surplus this year, but hey look at the projections for future years - that surplus won’t be so large.

So let us review the history of Treasury projections of the Operating Balance or surplus.

The 2003/04 surplus was $7.4 billion. It was originally forecast to be $3.2 billion.

The 2004/05 surplus was $5.8 billion. It was originally forecast to be $2.7 billion.

The 2005/06 surplus was $11.5 billion. It was originally forecast to be $4.2 billion.

The 2006/07 surplus was $8.7 billion. It was originally forecast to be $6.2 billion.

Now to be fair to Treasury, forecasting the income and expenditure for an entire country is difficult. Hell it can be hard to forecast earnings for a single company, let alone all of them. Nevertheless their conservatism is starting to affect the credibility of the forecasts.

I’m more forgiving of a $6 billion change from an initial forecast four years out, to an actual than a smaller change over a smaller time period. But let’s look at how the forecasts for 06/07 have changes over the years:

May 2003 = $6.2 billion
May 2004 = $5.1 billion
May 2005 = $5.3 billion
May 2006 = $5.8 billion
Dec 2006 = $6.3 billion
May 2007 = $6.6 billion
June 2007 = $8.7 billion (actual)

Yes the surplus to 30 June was $2.1 billion higher than when the Budget came out in May.

Now this year’s surplus was forecast in the BEFU to be $6.4 billion. That means it could well be over $9 billion, which would make the surplus over five years exceed $40 billion... of your money.

From the Dom Post...

What it is proof of is that his Government is over-taxing New Zealanders, a bad practice that insulates ministers and officials from spending mistakes - because they can be written off without consequence - and makes individuals more dependent upon the state.

Treasury’s view that the state is on a “structurally higher” revenue track than previously believed makes some sort of announcement about tax cuts almost inevitable in next year’s Budget, which conveniently falls just a few months before the election. But, if past experience is anything to go by, the amounts involved will be small and the wait to receive them long. This is not a government that relishes relinquishing its grip on individuals’ wallets. Previously it has argued that returning surplus revenue to those who earned it would fuel inflation, a self-serving argument that has encouraged ministers and officials to bid opportunistically for the surplus cash.

Dr Cullen has previously argued that he does not need a tax cut. Given his $255,000 salary as deputy prime minister and the generous superannuation fund waiting for him in retirement it is difficult to disagree with him.

But there is a world of difference between earning $4900 a week and $1150 - the amount earned by someone on a $60,000 salary.

I would also observe that Dr Cullen doesn’t need taxpayer funded superannuation, yet he is happy enough to take that, yet not happy to give tax cuts, on the basis he personally doesn’t need them. Somewhat inconsistent.

Nice going Labour.
fuck the tax cut...how about a rebate every bloody year?? what the government don't spend we get back???

[NighthawkNZ]

Well hell, my vote is for sale for $10000 if they want it. Maybe should start an auction on Trademe fto make it easy for them to buy it.

don't sell yourself too short... ask for $100,000

8 billion divided by 4.5 million = $1777.77 each :scratch: i never was good at math

[Grahameeboy]

fuck the tax cut...how about a rebate every bloody year?? what the government don't spend we get back???

Yeah but they would tax it............

I reckon this works out around $20,000 per income earning person.....roughly in my head....

[Grahameeboy]

fuck the tax cut...how about a rebate every bloody year?? what the government don't spend we get back???

can you say that again cause I did not catch it the first time:banana:

[SlashWylde]

I believe the Swedish model is still regarded as very efficient. From memory, personal tax is about 65%, but all medical and dental visits are free, including surgery costs to a limited amount. Public transport is free and frequent in most city areas and people are well informed of the services their taxes go on.

Cool, but:

I look after myself and subsequently go to the doctors about only about two or three times a year when I've had something out of the ordinary which needs looking at.
Public transport is of no use to me.


Think I'd rather keep the taxes lower. Oh and get a rebate from those thieving F'ing bastards in parliament.

[doc]

Where tax isnt rightfully spent is on having a credible and modern Air Strike Force, to show that at least we have the intent to defend our assets inclusive of food production and fresh water.

I don't disagree with you , but we could never afford to defend NZ, we can't even, "Stand up to be counted" without the enemy within ..getting up on their soapbox. Get rid of MMP and find some real leadership first, then look at defence again.

[Grahameeboy]

I don't disagree with you , but we could never afford to defend NZ, we can't even, "Stand up to be counted" without the enemy within ..getting up on their soapbox. Get rid of MMP and find some real leadership first, then look at defence again.

Who is gonna invade NZ??

[MisterD]

Seriously though, I believe the Swedish model

Got any pictures of this Swedish model? I'm sick to death of Asian girlies on this site...

Oh, serious comment required? Well just think on...those billions of surplus dollars are after the creation of hundreds of extra jobs in public services for labour voters...

[u4ea]

I've changed my mind - spend the $$ on unifying the country and getting people to give a shit about others again...

They have..dont you remember the "bridging the gaps" slogan?? Its happening with the treaty settlements...Dont ya just love to share????:(

[Delerium]

I see that the final solution I mean master plan is to encourage people to public transport and increase the green image of NZ. the problem is in places like Auckland you need a functioning public transport system for people to be encouraged to. Buses are not the answer. I half decent rail system goes a long way. There is some good documentaries on you tube regarding this and comparing us to OZ... I cant remember the link though.

[doc]

Who is gonna invade NZ??
Annoying Poms.

[Grahameeboy]

Annoying Poms.

Just as well I got here earlier then eh?

[Paul in NZ]

Money can't buy you love Paul. They even made a song about it.

Thats not what that lady (well I don't think she was exactly a lady) in Manchester St ChCh told me.... She was quite definate about it....

[PirateJafa]

Cool, but:

Public transport is of no use to me.


Are you kidding? It'd get more cars off the road, leaving more room for motorbikes! ;)

[u4ea]

fuck the tax cut...how about a rebate every bloody year?? what the government don't spend we get back???


Didnt Cullen sat the surplus was for 20 years down the line to save the older generation.I understand we had a baby shortage that meant there would have been less taxpayers eventually.I rekon thats why they upped the family support packages and paid maternity leave..its happening..a lot more folk are having babies..Personally I feel the tax rate is far too high and our health and education is failing us.The wages are shit.Wish I was a maori,I might get ahead quiker in this country.

[Finn]

Money also can't buy happiness... but it does buy you a much better class of unhappy.


Seriously though, I believe the Swedish model is still regarded as very efficient. From memory, personal tax is about 65%, but all medical and dental visits are free, including surgery costs to a limited amount. Public transport is free and frequent in most city areas and people are well informed of the services their taxes go on.
Doesn't sound bad to me, I don't mind paying so much as long as I can see where it is going and see some value in it.

Hey Mackas. Personal tax in Sweden is one of the highest in the developed world but it isn't that high. Yes, while medical and dental visits are free the health system is failing there just like NZ. My GF had to walk around on crutches for 12 months waiting for a knee operation. Then they said they couldn't do it for all the swelling. Chucked her on a plane, came to NZ a did it privately in a week. Public transport is very good but not free.

Sweden is not the country is used to be. Cronic Socialism has ruined it just like NZ. There is hope though, they just elected a young male right winger.

[Grahameeboy]

Sweden is not the country is used to be. Cronic Socialism has ruined it just like NZ. There is hope though, they just elected a young male right winger.

How is NZ ruined..................??

[Finn]

How is NZ ruined..................??

Didn't you hear? We didn't make the semi finals.

[Grahameeboy]

Didn't you hear? We didn't make the semi finals.

We did.............must be why I see the bright side of life eh

[Goblin]

There is hope though, they just elected a young male right winger.Hope you're emigrating?

[Sanx]

Didnt Cullen sat the surplus was for 20 years down the line to save the older generation.I understand we had a baby shortage that meant there would have been less taxpayers eventually.I rekon thats why they upped the family support packages and paid maternity leave..its happening..a lot more folk are having babies..Personally I feel the tax rate is far too high and our health and education is failing us.The wages are shit.Wish I was a maori,I might get ahead quiker in this country.

Yeah, but look at the people who are having lots of kids; the unemployed and the unempoyable. Don't matter if they can't afford it, 'cos Comrade Kerke will pay out yet more.

The Chinese system of requiring a licence to have a child has a lot going for it.

[Delerium]

Thats not what that lady (well I don't think she was exactly a lady) in Manchester St ChCh told me.... She was quite definate about it....

that wasnt for sale.. she was only renting it.

[Swoop]

that wasnt for sale.. she was only renting it.
It would be like waving your arm in a warm room...

[Usarka]

the argument against national is that they have the interest of the middle and upper classes and poor people will suffer under their leadership.

a welfare state is funded by the people that earn money, more to the point by the people who earn good money - the business owners and professionals. if you keep sucking them dry guess what - they'll sooner or later get fucked off and pack up shop and leave. And lots of people in this boat are considering this right now.

So when they've all gone what will be left, unemployment, bangalor phd's, a few farms and bugger all growth (unless the government keeps growing the number of civil servants).

The people who earn the money in a welfare state are the people who keep it going. labour is biting the hand that feeds this country.

fuckers.

[devnull]

http://www.nzcpr.com/midweek3.htm

Good article... sums things up nicely.

[jafar]

Personal income tax is legalised theft, push the GST to 20% & abolish income tax altogether.
As this is what was proposed by Roger Douglas when the then labour gibberment introduced GST now would seem a good time to do it :finger:

[Mr. Peanut]

I've already paid over $5k in taxes this year, thats a motorcycle worth!! :angry2:

I bike to work on my pushy.

I eat.

I sleep.

I haven't used a public service in years... :eek5:

[Ocean1]

http://www.nzcpr.com/midweek3.htm

Good article... sums things up nicely.

Very neatly indeed. And that from a Labour man, my respct for Dr Basset just raised a notch.

[devnull]

yep... I must admit, I was really surprised to see what party he used to be with.

He slams them pretty well, and makes some very good points. Voltaire had the right idea "The best form of government is democracy, tempered by assassination" :banana:

[Finn]

Hope you're emigrating?

Why, when NZ is such a beautiful country?