Uni of Life v Uni Degree? [Archive]

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Mom

16th October 2007, 19:12

This is bound to be contentious but here we go....

Another thread on here has highlighted something that intrigues me, and to be honest gets my blood running.

Does a University Degree make you more educated/more respected/more employable, in todays world? If you dont hold a degree, does that make you dumb, and stupid and your opinions count for nothing.

Apologies to the people that i quote here but here are two different opinions;

your wrong there mate.. on 2 accounts. Firstly i left school 20 years ago with 1 O level returnd to college to get a few more and then a diplma or two. couldn't get a job unless you had qualifications so i got pissed for a year in spain; the entry into qualified work/careers is no harder now than it was then or even earlier..

and secondly you say your more educated.... care to show me how you come to that assumtion> you know nothing of my background other than i didn't attend Uni....In my view, Uni's a waste of time and money.

your lack of university education is prevalent in your argument, which seems to be based on the three points that you have stated.

firstly, everyone thinks they pay "faaaar too much tax's" but the fact remains that the one's who are likely to go on to provide extensive returns by way of taxes to this country's pitiful economy are us, students. so it would be in their best interests to keep us safe, ensure that we finish our studies and hopefully retain our skills.

secondly, you never went to uni.....boo-fucking-hoo, then you have no right to comment mate as you have no idea about the stresses involved in being a student.

Poll follows, for those smart pants that want to leap in here......lol

Drum

16th October 2007, 19:17

It's possible to have both life experience and a degree. They aren't mutually exclusive.

boomer

16th October 2007, 19:20

Trudes

16th October 2007, 19:20

It's possible to have both life experience and a degree. They aren't mutually exclusive.

I'd agree with that, that and since being at uni I no longer have an opinion of my own, I'm being brain washed I tell ya, brain washed!! (LOL)

Usarka

16th October 2007, 19:22

If you have a degree it doesn't mean you're not a moron and conversely if you dont have one it doesnt mean you are fick. Both camps have their share of morons, but given the nature of a degree it is a good indicator that someone can work at something for a period of time and apply a level of thought.

the difference between morons with degrees and those without is:

morons with degrees think they are intelligent but they arent
morons without degrees think degrees are a waste of time and world-smarts are more important as they strum their banjo

most of the professional people i admire and respect did not get a degree [straight after school]. some did post-grad/masters study later in life though.

The Pastor

16th October 2007, 19:24

Does a University Degree make you a more educated person?

The answer is yes it makes you more educated.

I take it you did not go to uni mom?

Usarka

16th October 2007, 19:25

if i was entering the workforce today i would get a trade.

Magua

16th October 2007, 19:28

Go back to your knitting 'Granda'!

The Pastor

16th October 2007, 19:29

tis funny how everyone at uni hates it (except ba students) and how everyone at work says work sux and uni is awesome or how they'd be better in a trade.

howdamnhard

16th October 2007, 19:32

Yes going to university does make you more educated,but not more intelligent.:lol:

Usarka

16th October 2007, 19:32

in a trade there are ample opportunities to a) be your own boss and b) work outside the main centres.

put it this way, even renegade master has been to uni..... :lol:

The Pastor

16th October 2007, 19:34

in a trade there are ample opportunities to a) be your own boss and b) work outside the main centres.

put it this way, even renegade master has been to uni..... :lol:
nah bro i go to unitec.

Mom

16th October 2007, 19:35

Does a University Degree make you a more educated person?

The answer is yes it makes you more educated.

I take it you did not go to uni mom?

No Mr Smarty pants I did not! My "education" is not relevant to this discussion however. How about you explain your definition of an educated person. Mine will follow never fear.

if i was entering the workforce today i would get a trade.

Those Student Loans are a bitch for sure. I am not knocking a Degree, we need Doctors and Dentists and God forbid, Lawyers and the like.......my problem is with the customer service people with Degrees and huge debt!

Bullitt

16th October 2007, 19:36

boomer

16th October 2007, 19:37

Does a University Degree make you a more educated person?

The answer is yes it makes you more educated.

I take it you did not go to uni mom?

no it doesn't.. it means you can read, digest and regurgitate.. nothing more nothing less.

here.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education for example. no one will win this debate.. it's all based on your own beliefs and experiences.

and as far as im concerned.. i'm gonna LEARN you ALL!

Romeo

16th October 2007, 19:37

Robert Taylor

16th October 2007, 19:38

Usarka

16th October 2007, 19:38

and as far as im concerned.. i'm gonna LEARN you ALL!
Bollox I'll give you the LEARN. damn now i gone done gave it d'way. :wacko:

The Pastor

16th October 2007, 19:39

Usarka

16th October 2007, 19:40

I think also its down to how much capacity of your brain you are prepared to unleash.
tis my point also, followed by

Educated doesnt = intelligence.

unis do make you educated, you know stuff they teach you (if you pay attention) but they cant make you intelligent.

some people dont need to be taught in order to learn

BAD DAD

16th October 2007, 19:45

My view is, get as much education as you can get if you have the means. I've met plenty of people, and I'm one of them, that have had reason to regret not having tertiary under their belt. I can't recall anyone seriously regreting having an education.
Everyone gets to attend the school of life for free, having a university education is no barrier to life experience.

Toaster

16th October 2007, 19:45

I have a degree (somewhere buried in my office at home..... somewhere.... old undies.. no.... someone's bra...hmmm.... ah here tis.... "Bachelor of Commerce").

My degree taught me two thirds of bugger all... yes I learned marketing and management theory, but the real learning is always when you start on the job. My current role as a commercial banking dude (3 years total) is truly hands on and is a role where the young bright sparks struggle with clients who are old enough to be their parents.

It was the same when I was a policeman (also 3 years on duty). 6 months at college and all the young recruits looked at me and said they were ready to take on anyone and could do anything.... (I was 31 at the time and they called me granddad!! ha!). Funnily enough once they got out there doing the practical stuff, that is when life experience really came to the fore. Domestics, trauma, suicides etc with people again old enough to be their parents.

After qualifications, pure experience and maturity go a long way.

Toaster

16th October 2007, 19:52

Yes going to university does make you more educated,but not more intelligent.:lol:

Very true.

To study something is an education,

To learn a trade is an education,

Gaining work experience is an education,

To ride motorbikes, is living.

Luckylegs

16th October 2007, 20:01

You'll eventually reach a ceiling in any career path whereby you're unlikely to go any further unless you have a piece of paper from some institute.

Sad but true, there's 3x 40+ Y/O guys in my IT degree course who are experts in their trade, but need the piece of paper in order to get higher. Sucks for them, because the degree course wouldn't have taught them anything they didn't already know!

Some careers require practical experience, others theoretical experience - it's just the way things go.

If you play your cards right (and have a little modicum) of luck you get you employer to pay for the education (piece of paper) because they know that someone with a proven track record for the company (earned through, hard work and the right attitude) with the degree (cert, whatever) is better than a recent grad with no experience.

This does rely on working for the right company, but thats part of planning your future, Its no longer enough to think of "what you wanna do" you should be giving consideration for who you want to do it for, and part of that is understanding what they can do for you....

blah, blah..... bloody blah

Steam

16th October 2007, 20:06

If you play your cards right (and have a little modicum) of luck you get you employer to pay for the education ...

I worked for Chubb, earning just a little more than minimum wage as a security guard, and they pay for university for employees working more than 20 hours a week. Amazing, such a shitty job, but such a nice company. I wondered if it was to take advantage of the tight labour market and attract students, who could go to uni during the day and guard and study at night.

James Deuce

16th October 2007, 20:08

Magua

16th October 2007, 20:09

Educated doesnt = intelligence.

unis do make you educated, you know stuff they teach you (if you pay attention) but they cant make you intelligent.

But what if a university was to teach you to think critically about the world around you? Why do things happen etc, rather than regurgitating facts and figures. Would that person not be more intelligent?

tis funny how everyone at uni hates it (except ba students) and how everyone at work says work sux and uni is awesome or how they'd be better in a trade.

BAs are boring, heh.

R6_kid

16th October 2007, 20:15

Are you smarter than a 10 year old?

Swoop

16th October 2007, 20:17

I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)

Education is a method whereby one acquires a higher grade of prejudices.
Laurence J. Peter (1919 - 1988)

Bachelor's degrees make pretty good placemats if you get 'em laminated.
J. Jacques,

America believes in education: the average professor earns more money in a year than a professional athlete earns in a whole week. Evan Esar (1899 - 1995)

It is possible to store the mind with a million facts and still be entirely uneducated. Alec Bourne

HenryDorsetCase

16th October 2007, 20:17

.......my problem is with the customer service people with Degrees and huge debt!

Uh, why? surely thats their problem?

bomma

16th October 2007, 20:17

hehe contentious alright.....this is basically a repost of myself in a different thread wher i got shit for sayin what i did....education = highest level of study achieved, simple and objective

doesnt mean im any smarter or wiser or more intelligent, just means ive done a combination of papers that have provided me the pathway to gaining a degree in a certain field :)

p.s. the first post where im quoted is taken outta context mum (i dont mind just thought id point that out)

kiwifruit

16th October 2007, 20:19

Are you smarter than a 10 year old?

u r

The Pastor

16th October 2007, 20:21

But what if a university was to teach you to think critically about the world around you? Why do things happen etc, rather than regurgitating facts and figures. Would that person not be more intelligent?

BAs are boring, heh.
nope, intelligence is self taught. education is taught.

HenryDorsetCase

16th October 2007, 20:24

Its a funny question, and made me think a bit.

Here is my take on it: What a degree does (or should) give you is a toolbox: a way of thinking about things, trains you to actually think about things in fact, and a broader reference frame than you might otherwise have, plus exposure to a lot of interesting shit you would not pick up on your own. I tend to think of it as a "bullshit filter": if you have a set of tools, you can examine something, and come to your own decision about it, rather than being led by some slick fucker in a $300 dollar suit with white shoes and a diamond tooth. I did law, so maybe your results may vary: but the principle is or should be able to carry across the disciplines.

By the way, I am talking about proper Universities, none of your wanangas, and aromatherapy colleges or any of that malarkey.

Having said that, one of the best critical thinkers I know went to University for about three weeks then went out and got a job. And my brother is a tradesman (own business) who seems to be earning craploads more than me at present, and he left school at 15 to go work as a joiner. Go figure.

HenryDorsetCase

16th October 2007, 20:27

Steam

16th October 2007, 20:28

But what if a university was to teach you to think critically about the world around you? Why do things happen etc, ...

...my problem is with the customer service people with Degrees and huge debt!
At the risk of being savaged by Mom, that's me, I'm a customer service person with a degree AND a post grad diploma. And debt, of course. But only $10k or so. What's it to you? Hmmm?

I did my Philosophy degree for the reasons Magua said, because I was really interested in the world and ideas and shit. Interested in answering the big questions. I learned a hell of a lot about... well, philosophy. How the world works beneath it all.
How to think critically and analytically. A million and one arguments for and against the existence of God.
I didn't find the answers to any of those big fundamental questions but I spent four years with my brain on fire (no it wasn't just the drugs).
I would definitely do it all again, maybe stay in uni and become an academic like Aunty Helen.

Right now I'm in a service job earning only a little more than minimum wage, quite enjoying it, just cruisin'... but also talking theology and ontology and teleology and other shit with people who like the same stuff.

Uni good. Gives you the big picture about the world we live in.
That kind of insight into the development of western civilisation and the history of ideas and politics, that's not a course offered in the University of Life.

That's just what I like, personally.

MacD

16th October 2007, 20:28

Err, how about the people who enjoy study, do it because it's fun and a personal challenge? Why does a degree have to be regarded as an open and shut experience? Why did we let Universities become corporate training institutions? They're supposed to be about people sharing ideas within frameworks that encourage openness. Ban MBAs and watch the calibre of universities go up.

You might be interested in reading "Crisis of Identity (http://www.dunmore.co.nz/action.php?action=view&category=3&id=345#)", which challenges the current corporatisation of Universities.

As was pointed out earlier, experience and education are not mutually exclusive. So called mature students often contribute the most to, and get the most out of tertiary study, whether it's work-related, or purely for interest's sake.

The Pastor

16th October 2007, 20:33

tis my point also, followed by

some people dont need to be taught in order to learn

thats called intelligence, there is a difference from education,

Personally I hate uni, but have to go in order to get the money (engineering)

Curious_AJ

16th October 2007, 20:34

I only voted for the last option coz none of the others really applied. I think it depends. I don't think it makes you smarter, it just means that you have undergone classes to achieve a degree to put at the end of your name. Also, it depends what you're wanting to do, for example, 6 months practical for a vet nursing certificate or diploma would be more than enough. yet to be qualified you have to do a year or 2 year long course even though half the content doesnt apply to anything. (though thats not really a degree, but you CAN do a degree in nursing if you really want to..)

I'm babbling

Toaster

16th October 2007, 20:37

my problem is with the customer service people

Me too..... For starters many in my view can't do basic maths without a calculator, can't spell or write... they just print.

Now you got me started.... I hate it when I walk into a clothing shop or similar (and that is very rare) and the young assistants just sit on their stools or lean on a wall texting dribble to their boyfriends and girlfriends...

....um, hello, you are employed to get off your lazy arse and serve, talk to, engage potential customers and see if you can increase sales for your employer... you know the one that pays you a wage to actually work rather than just turn up and expect to get paid!!

Okay Mr Grumpy is going to bed now.

Bullitt

16th October 2007, 20:40

So called mature students often contribute the most to, and get the most out of tertiary study, whether it's work-related, or purely for interest's sake.
While Mature students do tend to be more active in tutorials and lectures I dont know whether non-mature students would necessarily share you enthusiasm.

Particularly with regard to group projects where mature students are often very inflexible with available hours.

Plus their contributions in other areas are not always appreciated. (I didnt personally mind but I know a lot of people who have had that view)

MotoGirl

16th October 2007, 20:42

A very interesting topic Mom!

I had this all typed out and damn KB logged me out so I lost it :angry: Unfortunately, you get the uncut version 'cause I can't be naffed redoing it nicely :bleh:

So what's my stance then? I reckon a degree is completely unnecessary if you've got a mouth and you're capable of selling yourself to a prospective employer.

I left school three times and I didn't get Sixth Form Certificate until I was almost 20. By this time, my school friends were completing their second year at uni. I should mention that all of my friends were extremely academic and one was the dux of the school and scored three scholarships for uni. I always felt inadequate compared to them...

By the time I was 21, I'd managed to talk my way into a software development company - without a degree. I worked my arse off, climbed the corporate ladder, and almost trebbled my salary. By 23 I owned a brand new motorbike, a nice car, and my first house. Meanwhile, my friends had just finished their degrees and were looking for jobs to pay off those horrendous student loans.

I'm now late-20s (ish) and settled in my career. The friend who was dux of the school also works in Tauranga. Funnily enough, she's a BA for a software development company, which is the same job title I've got.

Humour me if you will; what did she achieve that I haven't already got?

Luckylegs

16th October 2007, 20:42

I still get a perverse satisfaction from my first job where I worked for Income Support and seeing the "high achievers" I went to school with (having completed their studies) coming in applying for the Unemployment Benefit.

Not sure wether this was because they generally found that there degree didnt get em shit (read: a job) or whether they still had their heads up their ass's and thought they were better than the job offers (read entry level positions) were indicating...

<...Vigorous brushing complete, Chip still evident> :weep:

boomer

16th October 2007, 20:47

All I see in this thread are people with chips on their shoulders and the misapprehension that a "career" is somehow important.

Err, how about the people who enjoy study, do it because it's fun and a personal challenge? Why does a degree have to be regarded as an open and shut experience? Why did we let Universities become corporate training institutions? They're supposed to be about people sharing ideas within frameworks that encourage openness. Ban MBAs and watch the calibre of universities go up.

The "University of life" thing is utter bullshit. The "University of life" is often used as an excuse for parochial ignorance, while anyone who claims that their university education makes them better than anyone else deserves to go to heaven when they die and be confined to socialising with CEOs.

degree fan bouy by chance?

hey.. horses for courses; and i learnt the hard way, that corporate life and having a supposed career aint all its cracked upto be .. by everyone else.
I chased that dream for 15 years and now i'm pondering on what i'm really here to be..not do.

still. what ever tickles ya fancy huh. I just disagree with the comment that having a degree means someone is more educated, intelligent or will get them further in life.

I was lucky enough to have later education paid for by work and when submitting papers i had my tutor fail me because i'd achieved something in a manner he wasn't familiar with. it worked, but not the way he prescribed.

My experience of academics, especially lecturers, is they're short of experience in the real world.

MacD

16th October 2007, 20:47

While Mature students do tend to be more active in tutorials and lectures I dont know whether non-mature students would necessarily share you enthusiasm.

Only because they often challenge the other students' world views and maybe want to get on with the assignment now, when they have time, rather than leaving it to the last moment or asking for an extension from the lecturer! ;)

Curious_AJ

16th October 2007, 20:47

Me too..... For starters many in my view can't do basic maths without a calculator, can't spell or write... they just print.

Now you got me started.... I hate it when I walk into a clothing shop or similar (and that is very rare) and the young assistants just sit on their stools or lean on a wall texting dribble to their boyfriends and girlfriends...

....um, hello, you are employed to get off your lazy arse and serve, talk to, engage potential customers and see if you can increase sales for your employer... you know the one that pays you a wage to actually work rather than just turn up and expect to get paid!!

Okay Mr Grumpy is going to bed now.

you do forget, that dependign on the store, the person only gets paid minimum wage, the job ends up being a chore to scrape meagre wages... it's not a very engaging or interesting job... When I worked at the baby factory, I always made the effort to help people, or ask an older sales rep if I didnt know. But I got paid puddle stix and eventually resigned because the amount of pay I was getting was just rediculous for the amount of work i was putting in.

geoffm

16th October 2007, 20:52

While Mature students do tend to be more active in tutorials and lectures I dont know whether non-mature students would necessarily share you enthusiasm.

Particularly with regard to group projects where mature students are often very inflexible with available hours.

Plus their contributions in other areas are not always appreciated. (I didn't personally mind but I know a lot of people who have had that view)

It also depends if it is post graduate or undergrad. I finished my ME a couple of years ago as an adult student. There is a big difference between postgrad and undergrad - it is much less of a factory and you are expected to think.
2 years of study got me a $25k student loan, a new job with a lot more money, and a massive debt from living for 2 years with no income... I am glad I did my BE in the Old Days when it was a snip at $1350/year fees. The numbers don't add up now IMO.
It also explains why engineers are in short supply - anyone who can do engineering is bright enough to do accountancy, which takes 3 years and pays more with more jobs, especially in a downturn in the economy.

The Pastor

16th October 2007, 20:55

i hate it when people think they are better than a job, then complain they cant get no work,

thats not to say you shouldnt aim high, but if you cant get high, start lower down and work your way up ya basterd.

The good thing about being at the bottom is you can't get any lower :D

*caution*

16th October 2007, 20:56

Alot of degrees out there these days are absolute arse, run just to make money, the following degrees are well worth the pain, suffering and fees: architecture, medicine, law, Engineering (From experience I had many a good job to choose from after graduating from Engineering).

You learn alot of life skills at uni, like drinking, causing havok and such like....is that education? Though those off course can be learnt anywhere...

In the context of your whole life though, a few years at uni isn't that long, and $50,000 dept isn't really that much either, (taken in the context of how much you will earn in your whole life), and paying no interest thanks to labours vote buying means by the time you pay it back your not really paying back the full loan anyway (inflation!).

Certain degrees open alot of doors for you, but I know many a smart/dumb/successful/dropkick with and without degrees.

You are more "educated" in the academic sense with a Uni Degree, and as someone pointed out earlier you've proved you can stick it out at something and finish it, and after finishing you still have plenty of time left to get your "degree in life".....

Swoop

16th October 2007, 21:00

And my brother is a tradesman (own business) who seems to be earning craploads more than me at present, and he left school at 15 to go work as a joiner. Go figure.
Interesting point.

Schools are directing their students into the "academic pathway" (leave secondary school and then go to university) at the expense of everything else.
If a student shows an interest in, say, plumbing/hairdressing/carpentry/etc, they are immediately placed to one side with the other "lost causes".

The job market is flooded with university graduates with nice new bits of paper with the ink still drying on them, and the employer is faced with choosing between them all.
This happens time and time again. A flooded job market for the university leaver, coupled with the lack of "hands on experience" and real world CDF.

I do find it interesting that someone is making good money as a joiner though. Their wages are usually piss-poor.

James Deuce

16th October 2007, 21:04

degree fan bouy by chance?

No, I don't have one. The whole argument about whether a degree is worthwhile or a waste of time is hovering at about the same level as the idea that people have a fixed view on any given situation that is determined by their "politics" alone.

Both premises are about as watertight as Courtney Love's fishnets.

Her_C4

16th October 2007, 21:09

No, I don't have one. The whole argument about whether a degree is worthwhile or a waste of time is hovering at about the same level as idea that people have a fixed view on any given situation that is determined by their "politics" alone.

Both premises are about as watertight as Courtney Love's fishnets.

Oh thank god - someone finally has an opinion worth reading.... :bleh:

kerfufflez

16th October 2007, 21:10

you do forget, that dependign on the store, the person only gets paid minimum wage, the job ends up being a chore to scrape meagre wages... it's not a very engaging or interesting job...

The 'enjoyment' of a job is largely irrelevant - if you're paid to do a job, then DO it. That's why it's called work, and not 'engaging/interesting/fun time'.

Curious_AJ

16th October 2007, 21:16

well, this is true. but you can't expect most teenagers to actually take a part time job that seriously... you know how they are these days... I personally hate those people, i'm not saying that if I don't enjoy the job, I wont work at it. OF COURSE I'd work as hard as possible! I'm just saying that that's the general consensus for people around my age that are getting jobs.

Maha

16th October 2007, 21:17

I have a degree (somewhere buried in my office at home..... somewhere.... old undies.. no.... someone's bra...hmmm.... ah here

Me tooooo, well not exactly a Degree, more of a Certificate for 25yds (yes thats right yards) Breaststroke achieved at Primary skool i fink?....:shifty:

caesius

16th October 2007, 21:17

the following degrees are well worth the pain, suffering and fees: architecture, medicine, law, Engineering (From experience I had many a good job to choose from after graduating from Engineering).

You've offended a BSc student.

But you're right, with all the degrees in surfing management etc nowadays what's the bloody point?

The Pastor

16th October 2007, 21:32

degree fan bouy by chance?

hey.. horses for courses; and i learnt the hard way, that corporate life and having a supposed career aint all its cracked upto be .. by everyone else.
I chased that dream for 15 years and now i'm pondering on what i'm really here to be..not do.

still. what ever tickles ya fancy huh. I just disagree with the comment that having a degree means someone is more educated, intelligent or will get them further in life.

I was lucky enough to have later education paid for by work and when submitting papers i had my tutor fail me because i'd achieved something in a manner he wasn't familiar with. it worked, but not the way he prescribed.

My experience of academics, especially lecturers, is they're short of experience in the real world.
thats one good thing about unitec, alot of them have SOME real world experiance though its out of date, they can understand it when you say "lets try it this way"

caesius

16th October 2007, 21:37

Read over the thread. It'd kill me not to give my opinion.

Uni does not make you smarter. You can go and do a BSomethingUseless and think you're part of the master race. I tend to dislike those people.

I am doing a BSc, Mathematics and Physics. It takes a lot of energy not to pack it all in and get a "real job", but at the moment I'm lucky enough to have the means to go to Uni, which, as a lot of people have said, gives you that slip of paper you need.

But the number of wankers I have to put up with it drives me insane; people who have no clue about the real world outside of their cushy hostel/Uni lives.

I would honestly rather be doing a fitter welder apprenticeship, I may even do it after I finish Uni. Back in the day Uni usually meant you had an ounce of brain power above the rest, today it means nothing.

To everyone who has graduated from a Uni degree post 2000:

Congratulations, you're now mediocre.

Curious_AJ

16th October 2007, 21:58

w00t... lol. tech colleges with practical learning for the win (yet unitec itself is sub-standard, they need better management in natural sciences!!!)

The Pastor

16th October 2007, 22:03

boomer

16th October 2007, 22:03

I think also its down to how much capacity of your brain you are prepared to unleash.

all 8 inches(cubed)... and you??

caesius

16th October 2007, 22:36

did you get your degree in 1999?

What? No way I was doing real stuff in 1999.

Shadows

16th October 2007, 23:24

Of course it makes a person more educated. However, and depending on the area of study, unless one has some experience in the real world one may not know how to apply the knowledge obtained from that education.
I reckon there's no harm in trying to better one's self given the opportunity to do so.

Wiki Drifter

16th October 2007, 23:47

From my personal experience, coming off the University production line a few years ago with a pale-yellowish piece of paper laminated in shiny plastic did not help me prepare for the Real World™ at all. The hardest part was trying to get your foot into the door of a good job. I'll skip the tales of failures and disappointments encountered, but after I have settled in, it has been stressed upon me privately by management again and again that the company value people with degrees more than those without. I have not been in the workforce long enough to gather my experiences and reflect on the validity of those comments, but in my opinion, having a degree is a definite bonus for a person's career path.
Ceteris paribus does doing a degree make a person smarter and more productive? Probably not, but it does send a signal to potential employers that you probably possess a higher set of skills, whether thats actually the case or not is another issue.

PS To any recent graduates out there feeling apprehensive, disillusioned, or bitter at the experiences of trying to find employment, I want to give you all a big :grouphug:. Things will get better if you keep trying

jimevo

17th October 2007, 00:45

Obtaining a University Degree is a major accomplishment in life, any graduates will feel this way...

BUT this does not mean that these graduates are smarter or more wise in life, even in their own chosen field. Why, because a lot of these learned theories are useless unless practised frequently.

For people who will be using (daily) the knowledge learned from University, that degree is so vital for further career development, advancement, & potentially more rewards (financial or other)...

RDJ

17th October 2007, 01:19

Went to Uni, did degrees, believe that they were extremely useful, actually essential to achieve professional competencies.

BUT life at Uni was UnReal and the saving grace of my years at Uni was that working part-time educated me in the RealWorld (earning your pay packet, pleasing your boss, working with teammates etc.) whereas Uni was about competing against your teammates, pleasing your professors, and getting no feedback on what the RealWorld expected and would pay you for.

IMO - just as all cage drivers should be required to ride a motorcycle daily for 6 months to give them A Clue, so should all Uni students be required to work for wages for 6 months (at least). Neither will happen for quite similar reasons methinks...

Usarka

17th October 2007, 07:21

How many people at uni today are there because they want to learn, and how many are there who want a job or because its expected of them.

Universities have/are becoming a pre-req for almost any jobs. Airline pilots, army officers, customer services reps you name it.

imho people who finish a degree and never do any more study are less "educated" than people without degrees who continue to actively study and learn throughout life in whatever form. conversely, those who did not obtain a degree and also do not actively learn must be near the bottom of the pile......

MSTRS

17th October 2007, 07:52

My personal take on things is that Learning is a lifetime excercise. With or without a piece of paper that states a particular level of achievement, makes no difference. Success in life has nothing to do with a bit of paper. Too much emphasis is put on 'that' bit of paper, of which the lack of denies many fine people the key to the executive washroom.
"You want to be a member of our exclusive club? Then get yourself that bit of paper."
Fuck off.

vifferman

17th October 2007, 08:18

Does a University Degree make you more educated/more respected/more employable, in todays world?
Educated? Not necessarily.
Respected? Maybe. But respect comes from what sort of person you are, and how you live your life / conduct yorself.
Employable? Definitely. Despite the low unemployment rate, there is still a lot of competition for jobs, and employers will do their initial screening for skills-based positions by chucking out those with the lowest level of qualification and experience.

If you dont hold a degree, does that make you dumb, and stupid and your opinions count for nothing.
No. Having a degree is not necessarily any indication of what sort of person you are, or your worth as a person/employee.

My #2 son left school at 16, with no qualifications at all. Is he stupid?
No.
The 'education system' largely failed him, as he was somewhat of a "square peg in a round hole". He is also amongst the smartest 1% of the population.
He now works as Systems Manager at an electronics company.

OTOH, I spent nearly 6 years at university. I have never used my 'qualifications', although they did help me to get jobs, as they indicated I wasn't dumb, so I didn't have to prove it. In hindsight, my degree was a waste of time and money.

In my last job, we used to get over 400 applications for programming jobs. It was too many to vet, so they were ranked by qualification/experience, and most applications went straight in the "Reject" pile. The company ended up with employees that were often 'overqualified' for the positions, so there was a high turnover. They accepted that, as long as they kept their core of experienced people.

The biggest problem with the education system is that it fails in some very basic areas: it doesn't teach students how to think, and it doesn't teach them how to find relevant information and critically analyse it. So you end up with people who have degrees yet can't think for themselves or train themselves or find out what they need to know. My two oldest boys are autodidactic: they teach themselves, and are constantly finding things out and learning stuff. This is partly because they had a few years of home-schooling, and partly just their personalities. #2 taught himself programming (he is proficient in several programming languages), electronics (he has assembled a 300W amp, designed and made himself a pre-amp and several other things, learned to play piano and guitar (and then took some lessons), and is now teaching himself guitar. He is also learning (off his own bat, using downloaded materials from the interdweeb) Japanese, Mandarin, German and Spanish.
#1 son is studying pharmacy at university, but has such a natural curiosity that he reads up to 12 books a week (he speed-reads in chunks) including non-fiction ones on archaeology, ship-building, map-making, firearms, etc etc. He has appalling handwriting and co-ordination (brain goes way too fast for his hand) yet taught himself calligraphy and can do beautiful copperplate writing. He also paints, builds models (and paints them), creates maps, and the little free time he has is always very busy.
#3 son went right through the school system, and is currently in year 13. He is a blob. He's not dumb, but he's very one-dimensional. He'll eventually either be perpetually unemployed, or do tertiary studies and be a drone in an office somewhere.

Macktheknife

17th October 2007, 08:23

no it doesn't.. it means you can read, digest and regurgitate.. nothing more nothing less.

here.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education for example. no one will win this debate.. it's all based on your own beliefs and experiences.

and as far as im concerned.. i'm gonna LEARN you ALL!

Sorry Boomer, this is only the beginning, yes you must prove that you can do this but real education is where you can read, digest, and critically analyse the information to arrive at a new place. That is what I learned at Uni, how to see past the BS and get to the real stuff, the lecturers loved it, someone to argue with.
A degree (or 2) helps to open doors, it provides skills and knowledge to promote further learning, and greater understanding of self and others. Many people have observed that it is not the information learned in books, classes or lectures that makes the difference, but the way that it structures the mind and teaches critical thinking skills that is the real value.
It is important though to remember that nothing replaces experience, and after University you need to get out and get some.

Joni

17th October 2007, 08:23

I have always thought life expereince is so much more important... it brings wisdom and "street smarts" that you can't learn in a book - however here I am at the age of 35 planning to study next year... so I think my stance has changed... I feel a good combination of both will set me on strong road towards my goals.

Now all I have to do is hope I can still study as I have not done anything close to it since I was 17. :doh:

Up, up and away.... :niceone:

PS - Im gonna vote for you to go back knitting as you did not give us the option for a combination of life and study :bleh:

Dilligaf

17th October 2007, 08:31

At the end of the day - a degree counts as much as you need it.
I have a nice certificate in Bed.... heheheh. (oh alright BEd). None of my brothers studied further than high school (and it could well be argued that they did precious little of that when there too) however all are earning far more than me. The one who skipped school the most is outperforming the rest of us by an astonishing amount when it comes to income. He however has also had stomach ulcers and a divorce.
On the other side of the coin, some jobs will simply earn you more if you have that piece of paper. And in the case of teaching, pay scales are heavily tied in with years of service and your level of qualification.
Cynically, the only thing I really learned at Uni was how to write a paper in line with what my lecturers wanted to read. Which leads me to believe that University is great preparation for work in the public sector.

MSTRS

17th October 2007, 08:46

....pay scales are heavily tied in with years of service and your level of qualification.
Cynically, the only thing I really learned at Uni was how to write a paper in line with what my lecturers wanted to read. Which leads me to believe that University is great preparation for work in the public sector.

Conform. Or else.

Toaster

17th October 2007, 08:50

you do forget, that dependign on the store, the person only gets paid minimum wage, the job ends up being a chore to scrape meagre wages... it's not a very engaging or interesting job... When I worked at the baby factory, I always made the effort to help people, or ask an older sales rep if I didnt know. But I got paid puddle stix and eventually resigned because the amount of pay I was getting was just rediculous for the amount of work i was putting in.

No I don't forget. So what AJ that it is "minimum wage". People should be thankful they have work and need to remember they are there to achieve their employers goals and not make excuses for slacking off. No-one is owed a living, you earn it.

Many employees grizzle about their pay and I admit I have done that too. We all feel we are worth more than our employers think we are worth. It is our approach that makes a difference. I suggest head down and get stuck in with enthusiasm. A positive hard working committed attitude will always serve you better in the long run than an "oh well, they pay me bugger all so I will slack off or walk off" attitude.

The question I have for employees is - are you a providing a worthy return on the investment your employer makes in you? or are you a cost to the business?

Toaster

17th October 2007, 08:53

Me tooooo, well not exactly a Degree, more of a Certificate for 25yds (yes thats right yards) Breaststroke achieved at Primary skool i fink?....:shifty:

I found another one.... school crossing monitor at Brentwood primary school back in the 1970's. Geez I don't remember doing that!

Trudes

17th October 2007, 08:55

Conform. Or else.

That's what really gets up my nose about Uni, they say things like "we want you to form your own opinions", but providing that it fits in with what they think you should think! grrrrr.

*caution*

17th October 2007, 08:59

You've offended a BSc student.

But you're right, with all the degrees in surfing management etc nowadays what's the bloody point?

Those are the degrees that are hardest to get into (arch, med, eng, law-though its easy to get in to law, its hard to stay in), out of my school mates most that went to uni did these or buisiness, the ones who did BSc's all dropped out of uni.....

So actually I don't personally know any BSc grads so i wouldn't like to comment on the job opportunities of the degree... Though a job market flooded with BSc grads is going to make it much harder to find a job though in that area, degrees with higher entry standards make that degree more exclusive, meaning more opportunities (you would hope).

When you go for a job interview though, having a degree next to your name is definetly going to help rather than not having one. Can't see anyway it would count against you!?!

Toaster

17th October 2007, 09:05

That is what I learned at Uni, how to see past the BS and get to the real stuff, the lecturers loved it, someone to argue with.
A degree (or 2) helps to open doors, it provides skills and knowledge to promote further learning, and greater understanding of self and others.

Really? Which Uni did you go to Mack? All I did was party, drink, burn couches, drink, pass out, shag and drink some more... :innocent:

*caution*

17th October 2007, 09:24

Really? Which Uni did you go to Mack? All I did was party, drink, burn couches, drink, pass out, shag and drink some more... :innocent:

Well, it would be rude not too!!

avgas

17th October 2007, 10:06

6 of one half a dozen of the other.
To be honest working is a piece of piss to the shit i got when i was at Uni. But that may just be me as i got a shit deal from said govt so i had to also work while i was at Uni.
In terms of employment, i would probably pay/employ someone who achieved either higher or the same level of what i have achieved in life. Or someone who i could see achieving higher than me in life.
To me someone who has learn't all they can in a job is worth the same as a degree. But in my perspective of those i have met - those with no education, typically have no drive to learn. Adapting to a new work place is learning. So if you cant adapt - pretty much your useless to me.
Typically these people never climb very high anyhow.
However that is just me - i can tell you that NZ's culture to degree's sucks. There is no respect for them as 90% of the managers in this country were on the NZCE (or similar), worked to their levels or basically backstabbed their way to the top.
Go to any other country, and it is compulsory to have either 10+ years specific work experience or a 4+ year degree to get a good job.
In NZ to get a good job you must have 5+ years work exp + degree or 6+ years work exp.
I'm no saying they pay less - but its obvious where respect goes.
So if i had a choice between a degree or work ("Life experience" does count when it comes to jobs) experience, i would put degree just purely as you are forced to learn new concepts, or subjects that you would not normally want to learn.
Eg do you read the newspaper or just the business pages? Who is the better person? Who makes more money? etc

Delerium

17th October 2007, 10:36

I signed up with the services straight out of school. nearly 7 years later I still have not achieved any of my goals while there. Im doing a bachelor of business studies part time and my lowest final mark for the 5 papers I have done so far is a B. So, ill end up being part of the exodus of people from the service, and do my degree to open up other opportunities. Gee I wonder why the attrition rate is 13 odd %.

vifferman

17th October 2007, 11:08

I dunno if it's still prevalent, but it used to be that if you were "smart" (i.e., got good marks at school), that you were expected to go on to tertiary education, and if your were really smart, university rather than tech. To me, this is bollix. Having done a weird variety of jobs over the years, I've learned that ability to "pass" at school or university proves nothing. Take me - I've always been expert at exams, at sussing them out and doing well. But I was a lazy shit (or at least, very unmotivated), and made the mistake of going off to uni with no idea of what I wanted to do/be. I would've been better off going and working for a year or two till I'd grown up, then deciding. Or to have listened to my gut, and followed a childhood dream (writer and/or actor). Or to have followed my interests, and 'done' mechanical engineering.

Anyway, getting back to my original line, I've come across a lot of 'tradesmen' over the years, and what separated the good from the bad and the average from the outstanding (the real craftsmen, if you like) was how clever they were. An outstanding electrician/plumber/builder/mechanic can think his way round a problem, and come up with a solution, not just "do it by rote" and be stumped if it's something out of the ordinary.
My father-in-law fits into this 'clever' class. He left school at 15, was all set to go to tech to study architecture, but his family couldn't afford it (14 siblings), so he was sent off to dig peat, do various labouring jobs, etc. Eventually, he became an apprentice furniture maker, then came to NZ (from the Netherlands) and worked in a factory, then for a builder. His carpentry was amazing: he'd take recycled materials, tidy them up, and re-use them so they looked better'n new. Everything was always straight and neat, no corners cut, no "she'll be right", even on some crappy little unimportant project.

One of the problems today is that we've institutionalised EVERYTHING. Ideally, the schools would do a good job of finding out what talents and interests children have, and match their course of study to that, fostering their talents as they did so. Instead, it's just a sausage factory: raw materials and money in one end, sausages and bits of paper (and waste!) out the other.
Of course, personal responsibility comes into it - I blame no-one for my cock-ups or where I am today except myself. And the "education" system for failing to educate me. Oh - and my parents, for not encouraging me. But they had their own shortcomings and hangups, so I don't really blame them.
Especially now that I've failed myself at parenting three boys. Despite my best efforts, they're just as fucked-up as me: it's in the genes.

Mikkel

17th October 2007, 11:18

I must say that I'd like to think that having spent 5.5 years doing a Master of Science in Engineering Physics would make me more qualified for certain positions than someone who had not done something comparable.

I certainly feel that I'm in a much better position to obtain new knowledge in a number of fields (from economics to quantum physics) now compared to when I left highschool.
I didn't get an A+ GPA since I was too busy living life while doing "alright" at my course work. I did pull my shit together when I did my final thesis and pulled a nice A+ out of the hat since I wanted to do my best for once. I spent more time than most of my classmates partying, doing silly stuff and going on adventures - and while this didn't help my grades I certainly found it more fulfilling.

Does my time at university make me:

A) A better person than someone who does not hold a degree?
B) More intelligent than I was before I went to uni?
C) An arrogant cunt - and a nerd to boot?
D) More educated?

I'd say D - maybe a bit of B (compared to if I'd been speding 5.5 years on the dole smoking weed and getting drunk - as it is I spent 5.5 years on a student allowance smoking weed and getting drunk, but at least I was stimulated! :) ).

I don't think hauling your ass to uni to do half a year of disconnected arts degrees will necessarily make you more educated. Still it might, depending on your attitude.
If you have two almost identical persons, the only difference being that A can engage in a lengthy insightful discussion on the differences in the philosophies of Plato and Aristotle whereas B can not - A would per definition be more educated than B, but it's not something that'll give A an edge over B in 99.9% of all circumstances.

In the end - does it matter? Degree or no degree, if you start talking out your ass there'll always be someone out there who will pick you up on your bullshit - either through education or experience... neither is a substitue for the other.

xwhatsit

17th October 2007, 11:34

The "University of life" thing is utter bullshit. The "University of life" is often used as an excuse for parochial ignorance, while anyone who claims that their university education makes them better than anyone else deserves to go to heaven when they die and be confined to socialising with CEOs.

`Must spread bling around' etc.

Mom! I didn't know you were the book-burning, "I don't need no fancy word-learnin' ma" sort of person! I expected better.

Now I'm going to come across as a right arsehole, but so be it. I think it's worth drawing a distinction -- first of all between your Unitecs and Polytechs and all of those sort of places, and between real Universities (congratulations, AUT, welcome to the real world). Universities are what we're concerned with here.

Secondly, within unis, we need to draw a distinction between `money-earner' (for the uni, at least) degrees like BComs, BHealth, a good number of BA pathways (see below), and many of the new BSci pathways -- and with traditional degrees like Med, Law, BEng, and the more heavyweight BSci pathways.

Some BAs and other courses are very good, though -- not really a hard, solid degree, but often speak volumes about a person who is interested in philosophy and literature and is prepared to spend three years studying it. Many employers value a person who has learned to think critically about the world they live in.

If your little Johnny wants to be a doctor, don't give me this `go to the University of Life' horseshit. Or the guy who's in charge of fixing up the decrepit Auckland Harbour Bridge -- I, for one, am hoping that he fully understands structural physics to a university standard, instead of just learning on the job from some old guy who told him how to put rivets in.

I'm studying a BSci Computer Science (hence the comment about `heavyweight BSci pathways' ;)). There are entry requirements, of a sort. Next time you pay for something via credit card over the internet, quietly hope to yourself that the guy who designed your web browser and the credit card server software studied and fully understood public/asymmetric-key cryptography at university. Otherwise your fucked.

There's many degrees out there that are just bollocks. Designed for the university to make money, pretty much, as they don't get enough funding from the government any more (uni used to be free once upon a time). However there's a good chunk of pathways still around that mean something.

I'm at uni because I'm passionate about compsci. I may be a strange person to find microkernel architecture fascinating, but I do -- and I'm not going to learn from smart people who've done academic research in the area by arsing about in the `university of life' :laugh:

Don't associate me and the great volumes of like-minded people at real universities doing real things, with the arse-dribbling degree-factory attendees, who (rightly so) end up working in customer service because their marketing degree from some third-rate polytech was worthless after all.

Now if that was too many words for your poor little brains, read this.

I've got a student loan. I've also got a part-time job -- not enough to pay for uni directly, good luck there -- but enough to keep off the dole and even pay for a shitty 1980s Honda 250. Nearly everybody I know at uni is the same, working at a job to get themselves through uni. Yes, I work in customer service (well, a restaurant). Yes, I use a calculator (I'm a fucking compsci, what do you expect, I can type faster than I can think :lol:).

Swoop

17th October 2007, 11:42

I've come across a lot of 'tradesmen' over the years, and what separated the good from the bad and the average from the outstanding (the real craftsmen, if you like) was how clever they were. An outstanding electrician/plumber/builder/mechanic can think his way round a problem, and come up with a solution, not just "do it by rote" and be stumped if it's something out of the ordinary.
Damn right. Have you seen the crap plans that qualified "designers" come up with??
Yes, a nice looking idea on paper, but who has to fix all the problems and make it all work and survive in whatever environment that it is placed?
Designers:bash:

Luckylegs

17th October 2007, 12:34

Don't associate me and the great volumes of like-minded people at real universities doing real things, with the arse-dribbling degree-factory attendees, who (rightly so) end up working in customer service because their marketing degree from some third-rate polytech was worthless after all.

I know this thread was intended to move the focus away from the Parking issue, but..... (I reeeeaallly cant help it :wacko:)

Hands up if your one of the "arse-dribbling degree-factory attendees" and your taking up a valuable parking space from our good friend (and his like minded friends) Xerxesdaphat.

:whistle:

Bass

17th October 2007, 12:40

I have an engineering degree.
I got it because I needed it to do the sort of work that I wanted to do and I'm not especially bright, so at times it was hard going.

I learned 2 significant things along the way.
Firstly the degree got me higher pay but a later start. So I was in my 40's before my total earnings caught up with those of my mate who left school at 15 and did an electrical apprenticeship etc. That's not inflation adjusted either, so in real terms it was probably nearer age 50.
This meant that he did his big OE etc as a young fella and I never really have.

Secondly, the degree course I did also included a polytech course at night, to teach some manual engineering skills such as welding, turning, pattern making etc. The idea was to teach what was possible and how it all happened.
From there, all the long holidays were taken up with approved practical work with an approved employer.
I ran out top of my year in the polytech course in everything. My hands work reasonably well. So I went off to my first prac work period (as a fitter's mate at the Alliance freezing works just out of Invercargill), thinking that I knew it all and that this would be a doddle. Praise the Lord that I had the good sense to keep my mouth shut, because I had been there about 4 days when I realised that the old fart on the Lathe in the corner (he was 72 - they couldn't persuade him to retire) had forgotten more about turning than I would ever learn. Two weeks later I was helping to erect some steel 3 stories up on a scaffold that was swaying about 300 mm in the wind. I watched the guy I was helping laying down vertically downwards welds (very naughty and difficult but fast if you know your stuff), that the slag peeled off as he went. No chipping necessary. They were perfect - and working from a wildly swaying platform.
I came to the conclusion that if I practiced for the next 6 months, I might be fit to carry his electrodes, but that was as close as I would ever get.

The whole 3 month period was full of learning experiences like that.

I came away believing that education is essential and some jobs require more education than others, but in the end there is no substitute for experience.

I have never changed my mind.
It's a little like riding bikes I guess

xwhatsit

17th October 2007, 13:17

I know this thread was intended to move the focus away from the Parking issue, but..... (I reeeeaallly cant help it :wacko:)

Hands up if your one of the "arse-dribbling degree-factory attendees" and your taking up a valuable parking space from our good friend (and his like minded friends) Xerxesdaphat.

:whistle:

You cheeky little shit :clap:

They all park down by the new Business school, so it's OK :hug:

Luckylegs

17th October 2007, 14:14

You cheeky little shit :clap:

:Oi:

.........I AM NOT little !!!!

Bass

17th October 2007, 14:42

Does a University Degree make you more educated/more respected/more employable, in todays world? If you dont hold a degree, does that make you dumb, and stupid and your opinions count for nothing.

Anne, you know the answer to this one - you only have to look in the mirror.
So why did you ask?

Were you just trying to get a feel for KB opinion and if so, why does it matter?

KATWYN

17th October 2007, 14:54

I don't know if it makes someone more educated - depends what the comparison is.

I looked up the definition of education in the Oxford, and one of them was "a development of character or mental powers" I guess that is the school of life.

I personally am working toward a degree, not because I need to be "more" educated or earn more, but because I feel more confident and professional in business by doing so (especially document correspondence). So its more a personal thing rather than a necessity for me.

Although if I change careers I do believe in the back of my mind it will probably go a long way toward finding employment that suits me -not me having to suit it.

yungatart

17th October 2007, 15:00

Life is a great educator.
I don't have a degree, although I do have a Diploma (worth 29 cents per hour extra in my pay packet!!) and a nursing qualification.
My last 3 jobs I have got without even having an interview.
Qualifications can prove that you know the theory, and you can last the distance, they unfortunately don't prove that you know what you are doing.

BarBender

17th October 2007, 15:02

I got my Uni degree(s) and attended the Uni of Life at the same time.

Still havent graduated from the Uni of Life yet...
What does it take to pass the exam?

Coldrider

17th October 2007, 15:40

Ive done the trade thingy and the Uni thingy, and the life thingy, I can't decide. If I stay silent everyone will only 'think' I'm dumb.

Mom

17th October 2007, 15:50

Anne, you know the answer to this one - you only have to look in the mirror.
So why did you ask?

Were you just trying to get a feel for KB opinion and if so, why does it matter?

No it was as much a way of getting what was already being discussed on another thread (way off topic I might add) in a forum that was better suited to the purpose really.

It matters not one jot in the scheme of things I agree.

Anyways back to my knitting!........LOL

Macktheknife

17th October 2007, 15:55

Still havent graduated from the Uni of Life yet...
What does it take to pass the exam?

OH SHIT!!!!! There is an exam??????

Bugger, better start cramming....:Oops:

Coldrider

17th October 2007, 15:59

OH SHIT!!!!! There is an exam??????

Bugger, better start cramming....:Oops:
Uni does not increase your IQ, unlike alcohol which can reduce it, but then if the brain is a chemical with parallel connections, a top up may do it good.

ManDownUnder

17th October 2007, 16:08

I see three options actually...

Uni of Life (school of hard knocks)
Character forming and gives appreciation of life, love of others and ability to empathise. If you've been there, you'll know it, you'll know your limitations, admit them and be a far superior employee because of it

Uni Degree
Shows ability to stick at things (depending on who long it took) and infers a degree of specialist knowledge. Opens doors but doesn't actually boost a persons suitability for employment

Trade Quals
Belittled.. still - to this day... belittled. God only knows why because it's every bit as hard as the Uni Degree, and contains the ocassional component of the school of hard knocks.

ManDownUnder

17th October 2007, 16:10

Oh yeah... one more thing. Education vs Intelligence. They are totally and utterly independent one from the other.

Never ever confuse one for the other. If you do it will always be at your peril

Mom

17th October 2007, 16:13

Mom! I didn't know you were the book-burning, "I don't need no fancy word-learnin' ma" sort of person! I expected better.

You misunderstand, I am no book burner, and would never knock anyone advancing their knowledge in any way, including undertaking and completing a University degree.

Personally I believe that we are constantly learning (being educated). Just because you are a whizz with that calculator, and I am barely adequate does not make you more educated than I. I can almost guarantee that I "know" more about plant diseases, pests and nutrition than you, that does not mean that I am more educated than you.

The question posed was, Does having a University Degree make you more educated? My answer must be no!

ManDownUnder

17th October 2007, 16:18

The question posed was, Does having a University Degree make you more educated? My answer must be no!

Au contraire. Unless you went to Uni with the requisite knowledge to get that degree then you must have learned something. I.e. one was educated. The ability to translate the education into something useful (i.e. do something with it)... that's a whole other thing and very individual.

Mom

17th October 2007, 16:23

Au contraire. Unless you went to Uni with the requisite knowledge to get that degree then you must have learned something. I.e. one was educated. The ability to translate the education into something useful (i.e. do something with it)... that's a whole other thing and very individual.

OOOOO Goody!

Define education for me then.

I have it as a noun, that means "the process of acquiring knowledge and understanding"

Surely this happens in other places and at other times than during the course of Uni Degree? Therefore, I have an enquiring, intelligent (I like that you brought that up before I did) mind and am always learing new things. I still stand by the University of Life being best.

Joni

17th October 2007, 16:25

The question posed was, Does having a University Degree make you more educated? My answer must be no! More "educated"? Yes it does.... more "smart" not necessarily... more "wise" not necessarily etc etc

ManDownUnder

17th October 2007, 16:30

OOOOO Goody!

Define education for me then.

I have it as a noun, that means "the process of acquiring knowledge and understanding"

Surely this happens in other places and at other times than during the course of Uni Degree? Therefore, I have an enquiring, intelligent (I like that you brought that up before I did) mind and am always learing new things. I still stand by the University of Life being best.

I have no problem with the definition... I think it's a good one.

Education is a process occurring both at University and in life... I'm simply saying doing a degree imparts knowledge to the student.

It doesn't state the student is of superior intelligence in order to get one, but it also doesn't rule out being educated in many other aspects of life.

Re intelligence... an indicator I use personally is a robust wit. Anyone that has the ability to empathise with another in order to understand them sufficiently, anticipate (lead or direct) their thinking in a particular direction then blindside them with something they weren't expecting takes finess. It also shows a very practical application of what has ben learned and applied in a manner that results in... well.. a laugh.

Situational and audience awareness are needed as well as an understanding of what humour is (albeit not necessarily an academic knowledge of it).

oldrider

17th October 2007, 16:35

Au contraire. Unless you went to Uni with the requisite knowledge to get that degree then you must have learned something. I.e. one was educated. The ability to translate the education into something useful (i.e. do something with it)... that's a whole other thing and very individual.

A measure for value of either is "competence"!

If you are not capable of doing the job, education and qualifications in anything are useless.

That what gets measured gets done, that what gets done gets measured!

Qualifications are measures of "potential", nothing else.

Qualifications and proved experience are most valuable as selection tools.

The more you accumulate, the better your advantage.

The world has an oversupply of idiots, educated or not! :rolleyes:

I have a healthy "respect" for intelligent qualified competent people.

Respect can only be "earned" not demanded. :oi-grr: (IMHumbleO) John

ManDownUnder

17th October 2007, 16:49

The world has an oversupply of idiots, educated or not! :rolleyes:

I have a healthy "respect" for intelligent qualified competent people.

Respect can only be "earned" not demanded. :oi-grr: (IMHumbleO) John

AMEN!

I came out of Uni with a guy whose mind s like a steel trap. He can quote chapter and verse on shitloads of stuff... but the chip that settled on his shoulder the cap he got his degree was stunning.

The world owed him a living and he wanted to go into partnership with me. I asked him a simple question - "If the shop needed sweeping would you do it?".

He was stunned - kinda stopped and thought about it... and said no - he's going to have someone working for him that does that stuff.

1) He had to stop and think about it???
2) He said no????

errr.... *ding* next.

He didn't succeed in the following 10 years, so he went into something "easy". Building houses. I mean hell - how hard is it to swing a hammer? Business went tits up, because of (or triggering) a few funny finger fiddle problems involving the accounts and payments thereof... I mean - he was smart - he knew how to get away with it.

I'm not sure which prison he's currently in, but I'll bet his education continues.

Stirts

17th October 2007, 17:44

I work at a University....not as an Academic! And I don't have a degree!

I believe there are many types of "intelligence" not restricted to holding a degree/qualification or "real world" experience!

Intelligence is relative to one person, what you and I, perceive as stoopid may contradict each other, or vary in degrees.

And what about creativity, abstract logic, common sense, or other similar traits, is that not a form of intelligence?.....can I go to Uni to get a degree in common sense? does that make me stoopid cos I cants?

We need stoopid people in the world too! Welcome to my world!

Edbear

17th October 2007, 18:47

No Mr Smarty pants I did not! My "education" is not relevant to this discussion however. How about you explain your definition of an educated person. Mine will follow never fear.

Those Student Loans are a bitch for sure. I am not knocking a Degree, we need Doctors and Dentists and God forbid, Lawyers and the like.......my problem is with the customer service people with Degrees and huge debt!

no it doesn't.. it means you can read, digest and regurgitate.. nothing more nothing less.

here.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education for example. no one will win this debate.. it's all based on your own beliefs and experiences.

and as far as im concerned.. i'm gonna LEARN you ALL!

I have a degree (somewhere buried in my office at home..... somewhere.... old undies.. no.... someone's bra...hmmm.... ah here tis.... "Bachelor of Commerce").

My degree taught me two thirds of bugger all... yes I learned marketing and management theory, but the real learning is always when you start on the job. My current role as a commercial banking dude (3 years total) is truly hands on and is a role where the young bright sparks struggle with clients who are old enough to be their parents.

It was the same when I was a policeman (also 3 years on duty). 6 months at college and all the young recruits looked at me and said they were ready to take on anyone and could do anything.... (I was 31 at the time and they called me granddad!! ha!). Funnily enough once they got out there doing the practical stuff, that is when life experience really came to the fore. Domestics, trauma, suicides etc with people again old enough to be their parents.

After qualifications, pure experience and maturity go a long way.

I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)

Education is a method whereby one acquires a higher grade of prejudices.
Laurence J. Peter (1919 - 1988)

Bachelor's degrees make pretty good placemats if you get 'em laminated.
J. Jacques,

America believes in education: the average professor earns more money in a year than a professional athlete earns in a whole week. Evan Esar (1899 - 1995)

It is possible to store the mind with a million facts and still be entirely uneducated. Alec Bourne

Of course it makes a person more educated. However, and depending on the area of study, unless one has some experience in the real world one may not know how to apply the knowledge obtained from that education.
I've just started a degree to qualify myself for the position I've held for the last 6 years. There was no real need to, I'm very good at what I do, but fuck me if I haven't discovered I actually didn't know it all.
I reckon there's no harm in trying to better one's self given the opportunity to do so.

Educated? Not necessarily.
Respected? Maybe. But respect comes from what sort of person you are, and how you live your life / conduct yorself.
Employable? Definitely. Despite the low unemployment rate, there is still a lot of competition for jobs, and employers will do their initial screening for skills-based positions by chucking out those with the lowest level of qualification and experience.

No. Having a degree is not necessarily any indication of what sort of person you are, or your worth as a person/employee.

My #2 son left school at 16, with no qualifications at all. Is he stupid?
No.
The 'education system' largely failed him, as he was somewhat of a "square peg in a round hole". He is also amongst the smartest 1% of the population.
He now works as Systems Manager at an electronics company.

OTOH, I spent nearly 6 years at university. I have never used my 'qualifications', although they did help me to get jobs, as they indicated I wasn't dumb, so I didn't have to prove it. In hindsight, my degree was a waste of time and money.

In my last job, we used to get over 400 applications for programming jobs. It was too many to vet, so they were ranked by qualification/experience, and most applications went straight in the "Reject" pile. The company ended up with employees that were often 'overqualified' for the positions, so there was a high turnover. They accepted that, as long as they kept their core of experienced people.

The biggest problem with the education system is that it fails in some very basic areas: it doesn't teach students how to think, and it doesn't teach them how to find relevant information and critically analyse it. So you end up with people who have degrees yet can't think for themselves or train themselves or find out what they need to know. My two oldest boys are autodidactic: they teach themselves, and are constantly finding things out and learning stuff. This is partly because they had a few years of home-schooling, and partly just their personalities. #2 taught himself programming (he is proficient in several programming languages), electronics (he has assembled a 300W amp, designed and made himself a pre-amp and several other things, learned to play piano and guitar (and then took some lessons), and is now teaching himself guitar. He is also learning (off his own bat, using downloaded materials from the interdweeb) Japanese, Mandarin, German and Spanish.
#1 son is studying pharmacy at university, but has such a natural curiosity that he reads up to 12 books a week (he speed-reads in chunks) including non-fiction ones on archaeology, ship-building, map-making, firearms, etc etc. He has appalling handwriting and co-ordination (brain goes way too fast for his hand) yet taught himself calligraphy and can do beautiful copperplate writing. He also paints, builds models (and paints them), creates maps, and the little free time he has is always very busy.
#3 son went right through the school system, and is currently in year 13. He is a blob. He's not dumb, but he's very one-dimensional. He'll eventually either be perpetually unemployed, or do tertiary studies and be a drone in an office somewhere.

I have always thought life expereince is so much more important... it brings wisdom and "street smarts" that you can't learn in a book - however here I am at the age of 35 planning to study next year... so I think my stance has changed... I feel a good combination of both will set me on strong road towards my goals.

Now all I have to do is hope I can still study as I have not done anything close to it since I was 17. :doh:

Up, up and away.... :niceone:

PS - Im gonna vote for you to go back knitting as you did not give us the option for a combination of life and study :bleh:

I must say that I'd like to think that having spent 5.5 years doing a Master of Science in Engineering Physics would make me more qualified for certain positions than someone who had not done something comparable.

I certainly feel that I'm in a much better position to obtain new knowledge in a number of fields (from economics to quantum physics) now compared to when I left highschool.
I didn't get an A+ GPA since I was too busy living life while doing "alright" at my course work. I did pull my shit together when I did my final thesis and pulled a nice A+ out of the hat since I wanted to do my best for once. I spent more time than most of my classmates partying, doing silly stuff and going on adventures - and while this didn't help my grades I certainly found it more fulfilling.

Does my time at university make me:

A) A better person than someone who does not hold a degree?
B) More intelligent than I was before I went to uni?
C) An arrogant cunt - and a nerd to boot?
D) More educated?

I'd say D - maybe a bit of B (compared to if I'd been speding 5.5 years on the dole smoking weed and getting drunk - as it is I spent 5.5 years on a student allowance smoking weed and getting drunk, but at least I was stimulated! :) ).

I don't think hauling your ass to uni to do half a year of disconnected arts degrees will necessarily make you more educated. Still it might, depending on your attitude.
If you have two almost identical persons, the only difference being that A can engage in a lengthy insightful discussion on the differences in the philosophies of Plato and Aristotle whereas B can not - A would per definition be more educated than B, but it's not something that'll give A an edge over B in 99.9% of all circumstances.

In the end - does it matter? Degree or no degree, if you start talking out your ass there'll always be someone out there who will pick you up on your bullshit - either through education or experience... neither is a substitue for the other.

Sums it all up perfectly!:niceone:

My wife has just achieved her 2nd year certificate of a 3 year Diploma and we're both pretty chuffed about it as she completely failed at school and at her age she feels she has achieved something and we're looking forward to her completing the Diploma by mid next year!

I'd love to go to Uni and get a Diploma in Radiology, but can't afford to though I'd like to work in that field.

Learning a trade can be valuable. I think I'm fairly well educated with a few clues up top, but I have enormous respect for some friends who have little formal education at all!

bomma

17th October 2007, 19:33

just my 2 rupees but i think the question has been blown outta proportion.....

the question is "does having a degree mean you are more educated"??

simple and plain answer is yes, it sure does....gives you a qualification, whether it's worth something or not is beside the point...as is whether it makes you smarter or mor intelligent or any of that crap......when i said that i was more educated coz i go to uni i simply meant that i have continued with my studying/schooling beyond what the other fulla had....

personally i think university degrees are over-rated and the fact remains that the two biggest reasons most kids pursue a tertiary education these days are that:

1. that little piece of paper opens up a whole new door of opportunities, career-wise.....no glass ceiling

2. these days society basically dictates that to "get anywhere in life" i need to go to uni and get a degree.....

might just be me but that's the way ive been taught to think by my parents, teachers and every other member of society that has played any sort of role in my upbringing......

oldrider

17th October 2007, 21:11

xwhatsit

17th October 2007, 22:17

Universities make you more educated.

`University of Life' (O how I hate that phrase) makes you more educated.

An apprenticeship in a trade makes you more educated.

All in different things, though. All slightly mixed, with a pinch of each of the others, but they're three different directions, and I don't think any are better than the others -- only some people are more suited to certain directions.

My university degree has a pinch of `uni of life' about it, just a pinch; learning to balance money and time and part-time jobs with study, getting through interviews and dealing with dodgy/abusive employers, etc. It's also got a tiny pinch of trade/apprenticeship with a course I will be taking next semester -- go out and work on a real project with a real company, exposing me to the practical side of things.

I imagine the other two directions mentioned above also share similar aspects.

So if you want a Bachelor of Common Sense, you're probably better off sticking to the Uni of Life, or maybe a trade.

If you want to be a skilled diesel mechanic, then an apprenticeship is better than getting a bit of knowledge here and there from six different jobs, or learning the physical properties of hydrocarbons and aluminium from the Engineering department at Uni.

If you want to design the next RISC processor architecture to take over from Intel's CISC x86 design, you're probably best off going to a university and learning from the professors who just published a paper in the Journal of Symbolic Computation on new pipelining constructs.

I don't see that any particular method gives you more of an education than the others -- you just have to know what you want an education in.

Suney

30th October 2007, 20:31

Only because they often challenge the other students' world views and maybe want to get on with the assignment now, when they have time, rather than leaving it to the last moment or asking for an extension from the lecturer! ;)

What are you trying to say here...:whistle:

Beemer

31st October 2007, 07:14

I think the main point of a university education is not to show how clever you are but to show you have the ability to learn and gain new skills. One employer told me if he had a choice of a university graduate and someone without a degree, he'd usually go for the graduate because the fact they had studied and passed a degree course showed they could apply themselves to the job at hand. But having said that, it doesn't make them any better as an employee. I suppose it's that first impression stuff - like turning up to an interview dressed smartly as opposed to turning up in scruffy jeans and a torn teeshirt.

And if you need to get training or qualifications in order to do a particular job then you have no choice but to get a university degree if that is the career path you want.

slowpoke

1st November 2007, 01:31

Fookin' hell you lot can talk! Jaysus my eyes are hurtin' after tryin' to work my way through this lot......so I skipped to the end half way through.....kinda shows how much I'm willing to apply myself, eh?

Anyway the difficulty with the whole "university of life" education is how the hell do you assess it? How do you quantify it? How do you prove how well you've done? Who were you competing against? How much of it is relevant to the position you are applying for? What exactly did you study/do?
A tertiary qualification directly answers most of these questions.

Ultimately a manager could be asked to justify "Why did you employ this person? What are their qualifications?" and personal experiences told by word of mouth or without third party verification just do not cut it compared to a standardised qualification where you have been academically measured against known criteria. When the shit hits the fan the manager can't just say "Well, he/she said ..."

I actually wish I'd done a certain degree, 'cos I hate my frikkin' job, but the irony is I probably wouldn't get paid as much as I do now if I had....

Still, there are a million opportunities with unlimited possibilities out there for people who haven't got degrees, the proof whether you've passed the "university of life" is simple: can you spot one them?

Nasty

1st November 2007, 06:31

I have mulled this over and taken time to read the majority of posts ... and find this thread quite interesting. Anyway ... one of the things to realise is that once you reach a point in life ... they don't really care about degrees and qualifications that you earnt when you were 18 they want to know what you have done. Yes the degree helps in proving you can stick to something, that you can probably analyse data etc and that you can repeat back what you are told .. but its what you do with it after. I have a professional certification rather than a degree ... it required me to work in my profession for a few years before sitting in ... to prove education during that time e.g. courses and stuff ... and to maintain it I have to do continuing education ... far more valuable to an employer than a degree I may have done 20 years ago.

James Deuce

1st November 2007, 06:50

The older I get the more a lack of a degree affects my "career". I've hit a glass ceiling and won't be going any further in my "career" until this issue is addressed.

I think the older I get the less I am worth to my employer or a prospective employer. IT companies LOATHE old people.

Ms Piggy

1st November 2007, 07:17

Does a University Degree make you more educated/more respected/more employable, in todays world? If you dont hold a degree, does that make you dumb, and stupid and your opinions count for nothing.

Here's my 2 cents worth (having literally just finished my degree).

Intelligence is the key and it makes no difference if you have a university degree or not!

Yep going to Uni & getting a degree does make you more educated but not necessarily more intelligent. Yep it can make you more respected by people that it may matter to and depending on your degree it can make you more employable.

Not holding a degree definitely doesn't make you stupid or detract from the validity of opinions because, I believe the "university of life" is also valid and some people that have a university degree are the least intelligent people.

KATWYN

4th November 2007, 16:23

Define education for me then.

I have it as a noun, that means "the process of acquiring knowledge and understanding"

Surely this happens in other places and at other times than during the course of Uni Degree?

According to some opinions in here, "more educated" has been defined as someone who has a degree or other qualification (i.e., if one has a recognised qualification they are more educated but not necessarily more intelligent ), in these opinions the dictionary definition hasn't come into the debate.

According to the dictionary definition the process of aquiring knowledge and understanding in whatever area of life you excel, can also make you more educated than others.....although this view doesn't appear to get much of a look in when discussing education

So where is the benchmark?? More educated than who? Perhaps our own position is the only benchmark to compare.

Mom

4th November 2007, 16:29

According to some opinions in here, "more educated" has been defined as someone who has a degree or other qualification (i.e., if one has a recognised qualification they are more educated but not necessarily more intelligent ), in these opinions the dictionary definition hasn't come into the debate.

According to the dictionary definition the process of aquiring knowledge and understanding in whatever area of life you excel, can also make you more educated than others.....although this view doesn't appear to get much of a look in when discussing education

So where is the benchmark?? More educated than who?

Interesting that this is still around. I happen to agree with you. I believe that becoming educated is a life long journey, certainly a university degree can be part of your education, but does not start and stop with one IMHO.

This thread came about because there was some off topic discussion in another thread that I thought needed to be seperate. The premise that was mooted in that thread was that a university degree made someone more educated than someone without. I disagree. This is nothing to do with intelligence, though of course becoming educated suggests that you must be at least be a little intelligent.

Thomas

4th November 2007, 16:30

The more you learn, the more you want to learn, but whether that is by studying at uni or not is another matter. I think the important thing is to keep you brain active and be open to learning new things whether it's in a structured way or on the job.

My wife retrained in her 30s (not that old) and then gained new skills in her 40s. It now means she can have a wider choice of jobs than before. You could say that's clever!

steveb64

5th November 2007, 01:00

Many students do try to pass off that its far harder than it is. I completed a double honours degree in 4 years while working 20-30 hours per week. My gf is completing a 3 year degree part time in 4 years while working full time.

Saying that its not for everyone. Ive seen plenty of people who honestly found it really hard work.

From what ive experienced since finishing uni.

3 years of work experience is better than 3 year degree and no experience
10 years of work experience is worse than 7 years of work experience and a 3 year degree.

It can be really tough getting where you want to without a degree. Thats why my gf has gone back to uni because she was struggling to progress without it. Whereas Ive been given probably more respect than I deserved based on having a post grad degree.

Yep. I agree. Even though I've been working in IT and Telecommunications for years, with loads of different equipment skills, and a wide range of different systems, network, WAN, and design skills, my wife (with a degree and post grad diplomas) earns (doing management stuff) between half as much to twice as much as what I can... which is why I got to look after the boys... :buggerd:

Pixie

5th November 2007, 10:25

Formal education is becoming more and more specialised.

For example, medical doctors used to get a very good grounding in general science and physics and I would expect them to easily understand how laser based flow cytometry is performed.
In recent times I have encountered doctors who didn't understand that one can't get a platelet count from a clotted blood specimen.( the platelets form the clot and you can't do a count using a lump of congealed blood )

GurlRacer

5th November 2007, 11:50

They're both an experience. I'm thinking about doing my university years overseas.

Uni gives you a scientific view on life. Work gives you a creative view on life. (is creative the right word.. my english has gone to crap since being here!!) Don't forget our minds are all different, we all learn in different ways, so while uni is beneficial for some, it isn't for all. It's down to the individual to decide what will give them more education. Besides, we need balance in this world, and both uni and non uni students are needed in this world. (I mean, you don't need to go to Uni to be a chef.. maybe a polytech, but sometimes, pure talent and work experience gets you the job)

:D

SlashWylde

5th November 2007, 12:03

attending university is nothing other than a key to unlock the door to the next room. It neither makes your 'more cleverer' or entitles you with a right.

still.. if you or your parents or the tax payer wanna spend 50k+ on a degree you better hope to god you get a $150k a year job to pay the fooka back.. Worth it ? Maybe for the memories. For gettin on in life? there are harder ways but definitely cheaper ways.

to get on in life you have to be driven and have some nouce about you.. the rest is just ink on paper..

Right, so how do you propose one should acquire the knowledge to be an ASIC designer then? Or how about an Embedded Software Engineer? Let alone a semiconductor design expert.

These are examples of specialised fields which require at a minimum a Bachelors degree qualification if not a PH.D.

There are thousands of talented scientists and engineers (for example) all around the world working hard to better themselves and to push the boundaries of their chosen field. These are the people who developed the technology which makes your motorcycle what it is.

Your ill informed comments de-value their many achievements. You are a simple-minded fool.

boomer

5th November 2007, 12:22

Right, so how do you propose one should acquire the knowledge to be an ASIC designer then? Or how about an Embedded Software Engineer? Let alone a semiconductor design expert.

These are examples of specialised fields which require at a minimum a Bachelors degree qualification if not a PH.D.

There are thousands of talented scientists and engineers (for example) all around the world working hard to better themselves and to push the boundaries of their chosen field. These are the people who developed the technology which makes your motorcycle what it is.

Your ill informed comments de-value their many achievements. You are a simple-minded fool.

It just so happens that this simple minded fool is a qualified Engineer.

Now who's mis/ill informed..??

Are you a lecturer by chance....Idjiot?! * edit.. i just checked your Profile.. your a sparky... :rofl:

SlashWylde

5th November 2007, 12:25

It just so happens that this simple minded fool is a qualified Engineer.

Now who's mis/ill informed..??

Are you a lecturer by chance....Idjiot?!

LOL at myself.

No I'm not a lecturer. Just a hot-headed fool.

hdus001

5th November 2007, 12:58

I think its all to do with numbers and averages.

The extraordinary or gifted person or person with high drive will succeed whether he/she went to Uni or not. Many of the highly regarded entreprenuers of the world fall into this division. So do a lot of people who posted here personal stories of making it big inspite of not going to uni. You'd probably have done as well even if you went to uni, because you are bloody good.

What going to uni does is increase the chances of making a comfortable living even if you are not an exceptionally driven person.

I havent done any calculations but I'm willing to wager that the percentage of non-uni avergae people who have made it good is definitely much lower than the number of average uni-grads who have made it good. Note the term "average".

For eg, I dont consider myself or most of my uni mates exceptionally brilliant or anything above average, but within 7 yrs of graduating as Electronics/Software enggrs, most of us now have 6 digit salaries and have worked in multiple countries.

Ofcourse then there are some jobs for which uni is mandatory - doctors, scientists in specialised fields, physicists etc.