Institutionalised descrimination within the Police

[Fatjim]

I was pondering this yesterday after reading the article about the young girl who died in Hospital after suffering injuries from a head on collision. The driver of the car she was in crossed the centreline clipped one vehicle and crashed into another.

The driver was described as an elderly woman and the cause was suspected to be wind blowing the car sideways. There wasn't the usual comment about the police laying or thinking about laying charges.

Now if the driver was a young male would this still be the case?

Several years ago my wife rolled the family car 3 and a 1/2 times on the motorway. The police attended of course as well as the fire and ambulance. I also managed to get there within about 10 minutes of the accident and saw the scene with my own eyes. Now I'm fairly sure if I was driving I would have been prosecuted. But my wife had no such bad luck, the police where happy to OFFER the excuse of oil on the road, buggered if I could see much of the stuff there. I know the real reason for the accident and it wasn't oil!

Now the question here is.... Do the Police in general, or in part, have a preconceived notion that certain sections of society are not good drivers, do not have the skills to drive safely, and therefor are given allowance for this when they cause accidents?

Do you have any examples where you think this may have happened?

[Stickchick]

My sisters boyfriend was killed by an Elderly Drunk Driver when she crashed into his motorbike while pulling out of a pub and all she got was a few hours community service. Ok he wasn't doing the speed limit but she was twice over the legal limit

[Grahameeboy]

I think you have to look at the reasons why this happened which according to the Police was weather related, not driver related.
I am sure that they would have taken the same approach who ever was driving.
You would be surprised how a powerful enough gust can move a car.
Once dealt with an insurance claim in the Uk when strong winds literally picked up a Fiat Uno and threw it into a lampost.
If strong winds can uproot a wind...well think about it.
I am not sure you have a point. Sorry.

[MSTRS]

The young are all hoons just looking for somewhere to crash or get a ticket. Just ask them. Whereas old people who've been driving for 40 years without an accident are just tired and need to pull over for a rest.

[surfchick]

My sisters boyfriend was killed by an Elderly Drunk Driver when she crashed into his motorbike while pulling out of a pub and all she got was a few hours community service. Ok he wasn't doing the speed limit but she was twice over the legal limit

uncle the same but hit while in a car
unforgiveable

[MSTRS]

....
I am not sure you have a point. Sorry.

He does. Young hXc was accused of something traffic related by a 'respected member of the Fire Brigade' who had failed to give way to him. The investigating cop was all set to write hXc a ticket, on this prick's word and said that failure to give way was not important. Fuck me. It all went away when I got involved, but otherwise....
Fatjim is right. There are preconceived ideas in some cases.

[Pancakes]

helps prove the "stats" are right eh! Just like Pajero's and Rav 4's and lots of other big 4WD's are listed as "wagon" on the rego sticker now. I'm sure 4WD crashes will fall off soon proving they are safe?

[Paul in NZ]

Police are human - of course lived life experience influences their decisions and they way that they percieve inputs, just as it influences all of us.

[Grahameeboy]

He does. Young hXc was accused of something traffic related by a 'respected member of the Fire Brigade' who had failed to give way to him. The investigating cop was all set to write hXc a ticket, on this prick's word and said that failure to give way was not important. Fuck me. It all went away when I got involved, but otherwise....
Fatjim is right. There are preconceived ideas in some cases.

That is a different scenario.

Fatjim is relating a weather related incident to the Police being prejudiced to the age / possibly gender of the driver.

In hxc's case it was a case of the circumstances being disputed which is a very common scenario. Came across this many times when I worked in Insurance.

[Fatjim]

My sisters boyfriend was killed by an Elderly Drunk Driver when she crashed into his motorbike while pulling out of a pub and all she got was a few hours community service. Ok he wasn't doing the speed limit but she was twice over the legal limit

Commiserations, but I'm not talking about the sentence, thats up to the Courts. I'm talking about the decision to prosecute.


I think you have to look at the reasons why this happened which according to the Police was weather related, not driver related.
I am sure that they would have taken the same approach who ever was driving.
You would be surprised how a powerful enough gust can move a car.
Once dealt with an insurance claim in the Uk when strong winds literally picked up a Fiat Uno and threw it into a lampost.
If strong winds can uproot a wind...well think about it.
I am not sure you have a point. Sorry.

Obviously theres some gray between the black and white. But what I'm getting at is if a young male said he was blown off the road by wind would he be believed, or would the coppers think he shouldn't have been because he's a young bloke with the skills and reactions to deal with it, whereas an elderly woman would not.

[MSTRS]

That is a different scenario.

Fatjim is relating a weather related incident to the Police being prejudiced to the age / possibly gender of the driver.

In hxc's case it was a case of the circumstances being disputed which is a very common scenario. Came across this many times when I worked in Insurance.

Don't agree. An incident occurred...it must have been the young person's fault. See. Preconceived.

[Grahameeboy]

Don't agree. An incident occurred...it must have been the young person's fault. See. Preconceived.

Sorry you see it that way..........................:cool:

[Grahameeboy]

Obviously theres some gray between the black and white. But what I'm getting at is if a young male said he was blown off the road by wind would he be believed, or would the coppers think he shouldn't have been because he's a young bloke with the skills and reactions to deal with it, whereas an elderly woman would not.

I think it is fair to say that being blown off the road is in the hands of nature, not the drivers skills.

[Stickchick]

I think it is fair to say that being blown off the road is in the hands of nature, not the drivers skills.

I'm sure the cops would have done their scene examinations etc and verified this as they would have with a young guy.

[Grahameeboy]

I'm sure the cops would have done their scene examinations etc and verified this as they would have with a young guy.

Agreed, all this woe it is because I am young crap we get these days is a bit tiring :zzzz:

[Fatjim]

I'm sure this, I'm sure that.

I'm looking for examples, not opinions.

[scumdog]

Preconceived??

Just like the KB preconceived idea on how Police think.

A lot on here (and in the public) have a preconceived idea that ALL Police think exactly the same thoughts......"THE POLICE SEEM TO THINK YADDA YADDA YADDA" -but WHICH Police????????? - ALL of them???

[vifferman]

You would be surprised how a powerful enough gust can move a car.
Once dealt with an insurance claim in the Uk when strong winds literally picked up a Fiat Uno and threw it into a lampost.
Very occasionally, this would happen. More commonly, the cause of a vehicle drifting across the road in high winds is the person's response to the gust - jerking on the steering wheel or panicking.
I've driven a Renault 10 and a Punto across the Harbour Bridge in gale-force winds (though not at the same time). It was scary, but not impossible to keep the car in the lane. I also drove a light utility (Mazda B1600) with a huge, lightweight canopy on the back when I was 17, delivering furniture. In high winds, it would blow all over the place, BUT it was still possible to keep the thing under control.

I agree that this looks like discrimination. My son was charged with careless use of an MV, when he crashed the car after jerking the wheel to avoid a hawk that flew up from the side of the road. No-one else was involved, and neither would the cops have been, if the tow-truck hadn't taken 3 hours to arrive.
Careless? No.
Inexperienced? Yes.
Luckily the judge thought so too, and discharged him without conviction. If he'd been elderly instead of under 25, I'm damned sure there would've been no ticket. I'm sure the Polis have some pressure on them to keep the under 25's (particularly males) "under control". It's certainly the message you see in the media.

However, we don't know all the facts in the cases quoted, so we can only assume, which is not sensible.

[MSTRS]

Relax SD. We know that in all walks of life there are GoodBastards and PlainBastards. But FJ does make a valid point. We are all guilty to a certain extent of generalising and the police are no different.
Case in point, the son of a friend of YTs was being targetted by police in his car. They never left him alone. One day his mother drove his car. That was interesting for her. Yet neither of them were guilty of any wrong doing. The car 'looked like a boi racer-job'...

[Finn]

I'm looking for examples, not opinions.

I got a good one... About a year ago I was driving my SUV home after a terrible day in the office. I was sitting at a set of lights and a university student split in front of me on his scooter. The lights went green and unfortunately for him, I was quicker. Gadonk, gadonk and no more interest free loan repayments for him. Now some good samaritan obviously reported this and in no time there were cops and Eagle onto me. The chase was on through the city and I was busting for a pee so there was no way I was stopping. I side swiped several cars, ran through reds narrowly missing several pedestrians and it ended on Khyber Pass road when a cop executed the perfect PIT manoeuvre which resulted in me rolling my SUV.

They threw the book at me. 65k's in a 50 zone. 20 fucken demerit points too. Bastards!

[peasea]

Preconceived??

Just like the KB preconceived idea on how Police think.

A lot on here (and in the public) have a preconceived idea that ALL Police think exactly the same thoughts......"THE POLICE SEEM TO THINK YADDA YADDA YADDA" -but WHICH Police????????? - ALL of them???

Of course; any conspiracy theorist will tell you that.

[Grahameeboy]

Very occasionally, this would happen. More commonly, the cause of a vehicle drifting across the road in high winds is the person's response to the gust - jerking on the steering wheel or panicking.just d
I've driven a Renault 10 and a Punto across the Harbour Bridge in gale-force winds (though not at the same time). It was scary, but not impossible to keep the car in the lane. I also drove a light utility (Mazda B1600) with a huge, lightweight canopy on the back when I was 17, delivering furniture. In high winds, it would blow all over the place, BUT it was still possible to keep the thing under control.

I agree that this looks like discrimination. My son was charged with careless use of an MV, when he crashed the car after jerking the wheel to avoid a hawk that flew up from the side of the road. No-one else was involved, and neither would the cops have been, if the tow-truck hadn't taken 3 hours to arrive.
Careless? No.
Inexperienced? Yes.
Luckily the judge thought so too, and discharged him without conviction. If he'd been elderly instead of under 25, I'm damned sure there would've been no ticket. I'm sure the Polis have some pressure on them to keep the under 25's (particularly males) "under control". It's certainly the message you see in the media.

However, we don't know all the facts in the cases quoted, so we can only assume, which is not sensible.

Well I have come across several like this and remember in 1989, when South East England was hit by 100mph+ winds and the M1 was closed due to the numbers of HGV's blown on their sides due to the wind.

Acting in the 'Agony of the Moment' is not just down to driver skill set. A big enough gust of wind would not always allow a driver time to react.

I remember going over the bridge that day they ended up closing. I was blown all over the shop despite riding carefully but it would only have taken an extra strong gust to have knocked me into the bridge or the adjacent lane.

In your Son's case, the Police may have not been convinced by the 'Hawk' explanation which is fair enough. Easy enough excuse. That is what the Judges are there for to ensure that a fair decision is reached.

So possibly not descrimination......but don't want to burst the KB discrimination bubble

[Grahameeboy]

I got a good one... About a year ago I was driving my SUV home after a terrible day in the office. I was sitting at a set of lights and a university student split in front of me on his scooter. The lights went green and unfortunately for him, I was quicker. Gadonk, gadonk and no more interest free loan repayments for him. Now some good samaritan obviously reported this and in no time there were cops and Eagle onto me. The chase was on through the city and I was busting for a pee so there was no way I was stopping. I side swiped several cars, ran through reds narrowly missing several pedestrians and it ended on Khyber Pass road when a cop executed the perfect PIT manoeuvre which resulted in me rolling my SUV.

They threw the book at me. 65k's in a 50 zone. 20 fucken demerit points too. Bastards!

Sounds like these was deserved then.............

[Finn]

Sounds like these was deserved then.............

Yeah, I hate students.

[Grahameeboy]

Yeah, I hate students.

Arh......discrimination again........now I understand......I take back all my previous ill-conceived ideas.......

[MSTRS]

.... the Police may have not been convinced by the 'Hawk' explanation ....

I got 'Hawked' once. After some discussion as to whether I was doing 126kph and speedo calibration, the nice officer let me go with a shake of his finger. Of course, I wasn't a spotty youth at the time....

[Grahameeboy]

I got 'Hawked' once. After some discussion as to whether I was doing 126kph and speedo calibration, the nice officer let me go with a shake of his finger. Of course, I wasn't a spotty youth at the time....

and still not......but bling your way.......

[scumdog]

I got a good one... About a year ago I was driving my SUV home after a terrible day in the office. I was sitting at a set of lights and a university student split in front of me on his scooter. The lights went green and unfortunately for him, I was quicker. Gadonk, gadonk and no more interest free loan repayments for him. Now some good samaritan obviously reported this and in no time there were cops and Eagle onto me. The chase was on through the city and I was busting for a pee so there was no way I was stopping. I side swiped several cars, ran through reds narrowly missing several pedestrians and it ended on Khyber Pass road when a cop executed the perfect PIT manoeuvre which resulted in me rolling my SUV.

They threw the book at me. 65k's in a 50 zone. 20 fucken demerit points too. Bastards!


Rubbish - that episode was just another one of your ham-fisted efforts to leave the work car-park.
Take a bus next time.

[motnick]

I reckon it all comes down to the cop, what type of day he/she's having and what they think they saw/know.

My mates brother is in the SCU, his job is all about provable facts, skid markes, size of dents, etc. And even he sometimes moans about how the attending Constable got it way wrong.

But every cop is different, I've been pulled over for doing 58 with no rego. Got a warning. Next week, same car (registered now), different cop doing 56 on the same road at same time of the day, got a ticket and a full car inspection taking almost 20 mins before being let go. (Maybe the first cop had met his "Quota")

Part of the "discrimination" is probably good sense, the old lady had probably berated herself more than a cop ever could by the time they arrived, and maybe minutes away from a heart attack, whereas a young fella would probably (and thats a stereotype in know, not all are the same) be more concernced about how to justify the situation.

[Finn]

Rubbish - that episode was just another one of your ham-fisted efforts to leave the work car-park.

You're onto me. I forgot my pillow that day too so I couldn't really see where I was going.

[Fatjim]

Part of the "discrimination" is probably good sense, the old lady had probably berated herself more than a cop ever could by the time they arrived, and maybe minutes away from a heart attack, whereas a young fella would probably (and thats a stereotype in know, not all are the same) be more concernced about how to justify the situation.

Yeah, but the point is, if it is excepted that certain demographics aren't as capable then why don't the police target them.

Oh and Scumdog, how about a flipping the record onto the other side, this side's broken.

[Coldrider]

It was a Toyota Echo, and the winds between Hastings and Dannevirke tip B- trains over frequently. The girl was in my sons class, funeral is Saturday.
I wouldn't want to be the Grandmother.

[Skyryder]

We all have preconceptions one way or another, unless you are on Viagra. Then it becomes wishful thinking.

Skyryder

[Toaster]

No, this is rubbish and speculative on a media report that will never show the full facts of the crash.

Crashes are analysed on the facts of the case as to conditions, vehicle and driver behaviour at the time etc etc, not on the sex, age, colour or religion or whatever of the driver.

[Skyryder]

No, this is rubbish and speculative on a media report that will never show the full facts of the crash.

Crashes are analysed on the facts of the case as to conditions, vehicle and driver behaviour at the time etc etc, not on the sex, age, colour or religion or whatever of the driver.

Yes but when these become stats that demonstrate a common factor then preconceptions can influence a persons attitude to a type of driver be it age, racial type etc. I'm not saying a preconception based on age race or whatever is right, it's just that when something happens to a person often enough it will influence said persons attitude to the extent that a rationale analysis may not occur.

Skyryder

[Toaster]

Yes but when these become stats that demonstrate a common factor then preconceptions can influence a persons attitude to a type of driver be it age, racial type etc. I'm not saying a preconception based on age race or whatever is right, it's just that when something happens to a person often enough it will influence said persons attitude to the extent that a rationale analysis may not occur.

Skyryder

Well put. Being a rational person, I can't discount that at all and it is quite possible. Not all police necessarily do the right analysis, they are human and there are some better at crash analysis than others due to training, experience etc.

Another example of a common preconception would be to pull over two cars at a checkpoint.... one has a white collar businessman sitting in it, the other a roughly dressed darker skinned unemployed fellow with tats all over him who calls you a cunt for pulling him over because he is maori before you even speak to him.

Based on first impressions, who would you suspect is most likely to be breaking the law or have a history for it based on the amount of people that you lock up over a few years in the job?




p.s. the businessman was a previously disqualified drink driver... body language gave him away... but that's good policing