The white man's burden

[idleidolidyll]

Here's one for the racists and bigots here, and there are many.

The title comes from Rudyard Kipling, a racist of the first order, any comments?:

Anger at scientist's 'whites more intelligent than blacks' comment

5:00AM Thursday October 18, 2007
By Cahal Milmo (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/author/index.cfm?a_id=245)

http://media.apn.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/sci.jpg
James Watson. Photo / Bloomberg

One of the world's most eminent scientists was embroiled in an extraordinary row last night after he claimed that black people were less intelligent than white people and the idea that "equal powers of reason" were shared across racial groups was a delusion.
James Watson, a Nobel Prize winner for his part in the unravelling of DNA who now runs one of America's leading scientific research institutions, drew widespread condemnation for comments he made before his arrival in Britain for a speaking tour at venues including the Science Museum in London.
The 79-year-old geneticist reopened the explosive debate about race and science in a newspaper interview in which he said Western policies towards African countries were wrongly based on an assumption that black people were as clever as their white counterparts when "testing" suggested the contrary. He claimed genes responsible for creating differences in human intelligence could be found within a decade.
The newly formed Equality and Human Rights Commission, successor to the Commission for Racial Equality, said it was studying Dr Watson's remarks "in full". Dr Watson told the Sunday Times that he was "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours whereas all the testing says not really".


He said there was a natural desire that all human beings should be equal but "people who have to deal with black employees find this not true".
His views are also reflected in a book published next week, in which he writes: "There is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so."
Dr Watson arrives in Britain this week for a speaking tour to publicise his latest book, Avoid Boring People: Lessons from a Life in Science. Among his first engagements is a speech to an audience at the Science Museum organised by the Dana Centre, which held a discussion last night on the history of scientific racism.
Critics of Dr Watson said there should be a robust response to his views across the spheres of politics and science.
Keith Vaz, the Labour chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, said: "It is sad to see a scientist of such achievement making such baseless, unscientific and extremely offensive comments. I am sure the scientific community will roundly reject what appear to be Dr Watson's personal prejudices.
"These comments serve as a reminder of the attitudes which can still exist at the highest professional levels."

The American scientist earned a place in the history of great scientific breakthroughs of the 20th century when he worked at the University of Cambridge in the 1950s and 1960s and formed part of the team which discovered the structure of DNA.
He shared the 1962 Nobel Prize for medicine with his British colleague Francis Crick and New Zealand-born Maurice Wilkins.
Anti-racism campaigners called for Dr Watson's remarks to be looked at in the context of racial hatred laws. A spokesman for the 1990 Trust, a black human rights group, said: "It is astonishing that a man of such distinction should make comments that seem to perpetuate racism in this way."
A QUESTION OF INTELLIGENCE
Efforts to prove the superiority or inferiority of different races have a long and undistinguished history, from the justifications of slavery to the eugenic policies of Nazi Germany.
Modern studies on race and intelligence have continued to create controversy.
In 1994, a dispute erupted over the best-selling book The Bell Curve, by Charles Murray and Richard Hermstein, which argued that there were IQ differences between races that were at least partly genetic and that welfare and other polices were diluting the intelligence of the population by inadvertently encouraging the "wrong" women (with low IQs) to have babies.


In 2002, Richard Lynn, a professor of psychology at the University of Ulster, stoked the fire with the publication of his book IQ and the Wealth of Nations, written with Tatu Vanhanen, emeritus professor of political science at the University of Tampere, Finland.
Arthur Jensen, a former professor of educational psychology at the University of Berkeley, California, published The g Factor: The Science of Mental Ability in 1998 suggesting that a "genetic component" lay behind the difference between whites and blacks in intelligence.
He was accused of "scientific racism", couching racial differences in IQ in a theory drawn from evolutionary biology, and of practising "social, value-laden science".
In Britain, the dispute erupted at Edinburgh University in 1996 when the psychologist Christopher Brand declared he was a "race realist".
"The way in which I would try to explain higher levels of crime and out-of-wedlock births would not be by referring to blackness or race but to IQ," he said.

[Finn]

Surely a scientist and a Nobel Peace Prize winner can't be wrong.

Question: Does this include Asians? They have a bit of sooty in them but they appear very smart.

[Usarka]

scientists have different opinions too. the trick is to find one (or a group) that has the same opinions as you and take their opinion as the truth (eg global warming).

I DO agree with this comment, regardless of race:

welfare and other polices were diluting the intelligence of the population by inadvertently encouraging the "wrong" women (with low IQs) to have babies.

woohoo i got my bigot license :wari:

[jrandom]

Question: Does this include Asians? They have a bit of sooty in them but they appear very smart.

According to Wikipedia, the aforementioned IQ and the Wealth of Nations tabulated the average IQ of Hong Kong, South Korea, Japan and Taiwan at the top of the list, more or less followed in order by Northern European countries, then Eastern European, then Pacific/South American/Middle Eastern, then African at the bottom of the list.

Not a proper peer-reviewed study, but still mostly based on genuine data.

Crafty slanties and dumb-arse niggers, eh? Who'd-a thunk it.

[Finn]

According to Wikipedia, the aforementioned IQ and the Wealth of Nations tabulated the average IQ of Hong Kong, South Korea, Japan and Taiwan at the top of the list, more or less followed in order by Northern European countries, then Eastern European, then Pacific/South American/Middle Eastern, then African at the bottom of the list.

Not a proper peer-reviewed study, but still mostly based on genuine data.

Crafty slanties and dumb-arse niggers, eh? Who'd-a thunk it.

Now I'm confused. A little bit of spook makes you very smart, but too much makes you stupid. And why do white folk taste like chicken?

[Skyryder]

Watson's theory arrives at the conclusion that race is the marker for intelligence. What he fails to understand is that we are ONE species: Homo Sapiens. We share the same charecteristics excluding those shaped by environmental factors. To suggest that some races have an inferior ability of understanding based skin colour and other external traits is bollocks.

Skyryder

[Macktheknife]

And why do white folk taste like chicken?

They don't, that's why the natives call them 'long pig'.

[PirateJafa]

Watson's theory arrives at the conclusion that race is the marker for intelligence. What he fails to understand is that we are ONE species: Homo Sapiens. We share the same charecteristics excluding those shaped by environmental factors. To suggest that some races have an inferior ability of understanding based skin colour and other external traits is bollocks.

Well that could be open to argument.

To some extent you could say that people's intellect *could* be shaped by the local environment they live in. Asia for instance, has had centuries - millennia even - of civilisation (at least, for the coolie-hat class who aren't working in the rice paddies). As opposed to Africa, of course, who have on the whole been happy to sit a few rungs further down on the technology ladder throughout history.

Ergo you could argue that the environment in Africa hasn't really encouraged the people of that continent to develop at the same rate as those of a different continent, who may have faced conditions more conducive to intellectual development.

Either way, it makes for a interesting concept to think about. :)

[scumdog]

scientists have different opinions too. the trick is to find one (or a group) that has the same opinions as you and take their opinion as the truth (eg global warming).

I DO agree with this comment, regardless of race:

welfare and other polices were diluting the intelligence of the population by inadvertently encouraging the "wrong" women (with low IQs) to have babies.

woohoo i got my bigot license :wari:

I sometimes wonder about that myself.
A shitload of my female 'clients' have way more kids (and criminal minded ones at that) than the honest working types - o.k. maybe these 'clients' don't have all the kids anymore 'cos welfare has taken some off them but generally a lot who have had a lot of kids bloody well shouldn't - even if just for their kids sake.

[tri boy]

Watson's theory arrives at the conclusion that race is the marker for intelligence. What he fails to understand is that we are ONE species: Homo Sapiens. We share the same charecteristics excluding those shaped by environmental factors. To suggest that some races have an inferior ability of understanding based skin colour and other external traits is bollocks.

Skyryder

There may be some truth in what he says,(although I am just waiting to slagged off as a rascist:pinch:). Indeed we are one species, but inside of that, it can be suggested that it is made up of sub groups with regards to Geo location.
It is reasonbly accurate to say that there is a possibility on differences in Bone/Muscle mass, developement of certain organs (including brain quadrants) in relation to areas of the enviroment that each sub group has existed in over a long period of time.
ie: it's fair to say that Europeans have a much better swimming style, to say maybe Asian or African, and this possibly could be shown as accurate via competitions over the last 50-100yrs.
Intelligence is a sensitive one, but should still be debated without highly strung Anti Raciest groups nullifying a possible conclusion. MHO.

[sAsLEX]

Watson's theory arrives at the conclusion that race is the marker for intelligence. What he fails to understand is that we are ONE species: Homo Sapiens. We share the same charecteristics excluding those shaped by environmental factors. To suggest that some races have an inferior ability of understanding based skin colour and other external traits is bollocks.

Skyryder

Have you had a look at the shape of some heads around you?

Have you noticed the vast varying cranial capacity of the ONE species as you put it?

Have you noticed the shapes of heads changing with races?

Thanks for your balanced opinion based on some facts!

[Karma]

But he does make exceedingly good cakes. :D

[Mekk]

From what I gathered, this scientist is human. Therefore he's going to have prejudices and whatnot as the rest of us do.

I'm not taking anything from this until he backs it up with solid, credible evidence that is published.

Just because he's won a Nobel Peace Prize and is a distinguished scientist does not mean he escapes the bounds of being human. It's sort of like taking John Key's "the war is over in Iraq" seriously.

For all we know as well, the media are sensationalizing again. I find this more likely. He may not even have meant what they put across.

[Marmoot]

Question: Does this include Asians? They have a bit of sooty in them but they appear very smart.

Except in driving?

Pah....another race thread ....... If we get $1 for everyone of this, we'd be a millionaire. Where are we? Australia?

[Grahameeboy]

Except in driving?

Pah....another race thread ....... If we get $1 for everyone of this, we'd be a millionaire. Where are we? Australia?

Mmmm....Kiwi's are still by far the worst and were before Asian's arrived on mass so just another case of thinking below the line and diverting blame to someone else.

[Usarka]

Mmmm....Kiwi's are still by far the worst and were before Asian's arrived on mass so just another case of thinking below the line and diverting blame to someone else.

stop being bloody racist.

[Grahameeboy]

stop being bloody racist.

Racist? I am merely making an observation about driving skills........:blink:

[bert_is_evil]

welfare and other polices were diluting the intelligence of the population by inadvertently encouraging the "wrong" women (with low IQs) to have babies.


Harvey Danger:


Been around the world and found
That only stupid people are breeding
The cretins cloning and feeding
And I don't even own a tv

I'm not sick but I'm not well
And I'm so hot cause I'm in hell

[jrandom]

Pah....another race thread ...

Hello again, Marmoot.

<img src="http://symbianguru.typepad.com/welcome/images/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg"/>

[Fatjim]

Does this mean white men can jump? It was all a lie?

[Toaster]

Watson's theory arrives at the conclusion that race is the marker for intelligence. What he fails to understand is that we are ONE species: Homo Sapiens.
Skyryder

Exactly right... we are the human race with cultural, lauguage and geographical differences manifest over a long period of time.

I was intrigued to find out the other day that our DNA make-up between different colours or 'races' as some call it (e.g white vs black people) is less than 2%... so we are 98% the same as everyone else no matter what colour you are or what you look like. The human body is a far more complex machine.... we need to look beyond the skin to understand that and see we are so very very similar and quite a marvel of bio-electro-chemical engineering at that.

[Fatjim]

Lets look at accepted differences between the races.

Size of todger
Asian - peewee
White - Average*
Negro - mammoth

So its more than just skin colour!







* Dirk Digler excluded

[jrandom]

Asian - peewee

It's true! Seriously!

Sit a Chinese brand of condom alongside a standard Durex and you'll see what I mean.

No, I'm not kidding...

[Maha]

The White Mans Burden

I read it as White Mans Bourbon.....:confused:....as you were Maha...<_<

[MidnightMike]

RACISTS!


That got your attention didnt it?

Your flogging a horse skeleton now guys, theres been so many of these race related threads that go nowhere.

But feel free to stereotype and whatever else that normally happens.

[Usarka]

I was intrigued to find out the other day that our DNA make-up between different colours or 'races' as some call it (e.g white vs black people) is less than 2%... so we are 98% the same as everyone else no matter what colour you are or what you look like. The human body is a far more complex machine.... we need to look beyond the skin to understand that and see we are so very very similar and quite a marvel of bio-electro-chemical engineering at that.

humans are 95% same dna as chimps. mmmmm bananananana :wari:

[The Stranger]

I was intrigued to find out the other day that our DNA make-up between different colours or 'races' as some call it (e.g white vs black people) is less than 2%... so we are 98% the same as everyone else no matter what colour you are or what you look like.

"Scientists have sequenced the genome of the chimpanzee and found that humans are 96 percent similar to the great ape species."

Meh, what's another 2% between cousins.

[Fatjim]

Hey Midnight Mike, try and keep your post objective will you.

[Toaster]

humans are 95% same dna as chimps. mmmmm bananananana :wari:

Always wondered why I liked banana's so much!

[tri boy]

humans are 95% same dna as chimps. mmmmm bananananana :wari:

Cool.:clap: Using that basis, I can Shit in my hand and chuck it at people I don't like.......ooooh, and masturbate in front of the women:clap:....I also like Bannans so its all good.:banana:

[Marmoot]

Hello again, Marmoot.

*BLING*

I enjoyed beating a dead horse because it doesn't fight back...

and since 99% of discussions in the Internet is in fact beating a dead horse; And so is 99% of the discussion in NZ....hell even the elections are like beating dead horses

Cynical? Me? Really???

[Finn]

Except in driving?

Not always correct. I'm dating a half cast Euro / Asian chick and she can drive better than most guys I know.

[Marmoot]

Not always correct. I'm dating a half cast Euro / Asian chick and she can drive better than most guys I know.

If she has the asian look, her brain must be european
That would explain my assertion


I know I'm right because it's been proven: I drive like shite :wacko:

[MisterD]

Watson's theory arrives at the conclusion that race is the marker for intelligence. What he fails to understand is that we are ONE species: Homo Sapiens. We share the same charecteristics excluding those shaped by environmental factors. To suggest that some races have an inferior ability of understanding based skin colour and other external traits is bollocks.

Skyryder

Erm, why?

It's accepted fact that:

1)Black people have a higher proportion of "fast-twitch" muscle, giving them an in-built advantage in speed and power sports.

2)North Europeans evolved to retain the ability to digest milk into adulthood because it was a vital food source for them..other races are almost completely lactose-intolerant.

So why is it not conceivable that the environment in Northern Europe placed a great evolutionary premium on intelligence, rather than sheer physical strength / speed / stamina whatever?

Why hit the "racism" button, just because it's intelligence we're talking about?

[jrandom]

half cast...

Heh, what, they didn't finish the pour?

:p

Oh, did you mean half caste?

[jrandom]

... she can drive better than most guys I know.

OK.

I'll bet you the cost of a trackday at Taupo in your Porsche that she won't be able to beat my best lap time in it.

;)

[Finn]

Heh, what, they didn't finish the pour?

:p

Oh, did you mean half caste?

Sorry. So does that make her a gook or a gooke?

[jrandom]

Sorry. So does that make her a gook or a gooke?

PIXPLS.

:cool:

[The Stranger]

Always wondered why I liked banana's so much!

Yeah, but the chimps eat them.

[Marmoot]

So why is it not conceivable that the environment in Northern Europe placed a great evolutionary premium on intelligence, rather than sheer physical strength / speed / stamina whatever?

Explain Dumb Blonde?

[Finn]

OK.

I'll bet you the cost of a trackday at Taupo in your Porsche that she won't be able to beat my best lap time in it.

;)

I'll even throw in an ex if you win.

Besides, I sold my Porsche... but people still call me a wanker. Damn it, it wasn't the car after all.

[MisterD]

Explain Dumb Blonde?

We're not allowed to tell jokes about stupid Paddys any more.

[jrandom]

I sold my Porsche... but people still call me a wanker.

I've never even owned a Porsche, and Gaymeboy still calls me a wanker.

To be honest, I'm starting to suspect that it has something to do with the rhythmic wet slapping sounds coming from behind my bedroom door most evenings.

[Scouse]

It's true! Seriously!

Sit a Chinese brand of condom alongside a standard Durex and you'll see what I mean.

No, I'm not kidding...Thats a blatant lie we all know Aisians dont use condoms thats why there are so many of them

[ambler]

""He claimed genes responsible for creating differences in human intelligence could be found within a decade.""
Well perhaps he should come back when he's found them. Until then, my 'claim' that these genes will not be found is just as valid, and this guy remains just an unsubstantiated blowhard.
Where can we find the tests he uses? What does he opine on the Asian 'race'?

[Finn]

To be honest, I'm starting to suspect that it has something to do with the rhythmic wet slapping sounds coming from behind my bedroom door most evenings.

That must be torture for the poor chap.

[Manxman]

Here's one for the racists and bigots here, and there are many.

The title comes from Rudyard Kipling, a racist of the first order, any comments?:
snip..........


...ok, so now you've got everyone talking....what do you think about it, oh cerebral one?

[Manxman]

1234567890

[candor]

Our brains are the same structure wise and chemical operation wise.

Our genes are mostly the same, apart maybe from Basques who I think have some traces of ?is it cro magnum man, still hanging about, FWIW.

IF there are IQ differences as measured by Western methodology the explanation is simple and obvious.

Culture. If you are taught to value deductive reasoning and reflection and toying with ideas as a child, and filling your head with facts is encouraged you are far more likely to ace IQ tests.

If you are taught not to question, not to value or try and come up with new ideas eg communist china, or not to aspire to be a cleverer dick than your "working class" community so then you don't study or thirst for knowledge, the brain will atrophy.

New connections between brain cells are built by use of the organ. Disuse results in fewer connections. Some cultures value brain power more so they promote it and have perfected techniques to make the best of what we've all got.

Physios rehabilitating people with brain injury or people who must learn to walk again know this focus on wiring new pathways works, and lack of effort not.

That scientist is incredibly dumb, especially as a geneticist to think any differences are down to race.

Now if we were talking dogs I do believe in interspecies intelligence differences that can be fair betted on based on looks. But humans are just not as poles apart in their make up as say your astute german shepherds and (sorry to offend anyone) stupid but cheery staffys, for arguments sakes.

And this science program on last night (about genetic markers for Afro American slave descendents seeking to trace their tribe thru DNA)
explained that we all have tens of thousands of grand / great grand / great great grand parents. In other words we must all be related, because the odds of not being have to be low as if we've got that many ancestor inputs.

[98tls]

New connections between brain cells are built by use of the organ. Oh god how ive tried:(sadly no,not even a phone number in the morning.

[idleidolidyll]

...ok, so now you've got everyone talking....what do you think about it, oh cerebral one?

it was merely a ploy

i knew it would help identify the racists here for myself and everyone else interested

an unqualified success given the rush to post in just one day

[Usarka]

an unqualified success given the rush to post in just one day
can you point out the racist posts please?

All i can see is:

obvious satire / humour
blatant anti-racism opinions
a few willing to debate the idea on a scientific basis from both sides


You say your post was made to generate a reaction - who are you to judge others racist when they may have done the same?

Labelling people racist because they dare talk about subjects containing race issues is ludicrous PC dribble. The one or two posts in this whole thread that are a little derogatory are from people who take the piss on any and every subject.

The most racist of all the posts in this thread is the original - yours.

[Bass]

The dictionary defines racism as differentiation to disadvantage on the basis of race.

Therefore, if I say that "using the same data, Japanese are brighter than us",
it's not racist - right?

[Marmoot]

""He claimed genes responsible for creating differences in human intelligence could be found within a decade.""

If the genes are not found yet, what is currently making some people so smart?

[Usarka]

The other co-founder of the double helix DNA structure was francis crick, who was high on LSD when he made the discovery! http://www.miqel.com/entheogens/francis_crick_dna_lsd.html :wacko:

who said drugs are bad, m'kay?

[Manxman]

it was merely a ploy

i knew it would help identify the racists here for myself and everyone else interested

an unqualified success given the rush to post in just one day

...yeah ok...but like I said - what do you think about the article that you posted originally?

[jonbuoy]

Why is it considered racist to point out possible genetic differences between races? How many white 100m sprinters/heavy weight boxers do you see in proffesional sports?

[Scouse]

Why is it considered racist to point out possible genetic differences between races? How many white 100m sprinters/heavy weight boxers do you see in proffesional sports?Hey man thats racist while were on that subject how many white men (except for Police officers) do you see in court up on rape charges

[tri boy]

Every human I have met is raciest in their own sweet way. Yes I bet even you Idle......
Shit you vouch for KTMs, that guarantees that your dumb as dog shit.:laugh:

[pritch]

I haven't read the whole thread please pardon me if someone already said any of this.

The eminent gentleman originally quoted has no doubt got sound evidence to make his statements. He probably has the results of innumerable IQ tests, most of which were devised by middle class white people in affluent countries.

How would he do, or indeed how would we fare, if we had to undergo a test prepared by African tribesmen around things with which they are familiar?

One suspects we might fail to impress...

Now since people are being accused of being bigots I thought I should see precisely what we were talking about.

Interestingly my dictionary defines the word bigot thus,
"A person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his own."

Well Bugga!

The original poster should not have to look too far to find one of those. :whistle:

[Dave Lobster]

How would he do, or indeed how would we fare, if we had to undergo a test prepared by African tribesmen around things with which they are familiar?



How would he fare against a black person from a London ghetto, who has spent most of his life without a father figure, but with a free education, and who can't even point to afwica on a map?

Unless he's got some pretty good evidence, he'd have kept his gob shut. Evidence you wont see on the BBC, which has far more none white people in it than the national demographic.

[davereid]

obvious satire / humour
blatant anti-racism opinions
a few willing to debate the idea on a scientific basis from both sides

Labelling people racist because they dare talk about subjects containing race issues is ludicrous PC dribble. The one or two posts in this whole thread that are a little derogatory are from people who take the piss on any and every subject.

The most racist of all the posts in this thread is the original - yours.

BLING ! Three reactions to this thread really...

1..the jokers,
2..those who say " I agree / disagree buts whats your evidence
3..the worst..those who say, you're a racist asehole for even daring consider it - the party line condemns discussion of the subject, you will be burned at the stake, of course the earth is the center of the universe !

[Skyryder]

I sometimes wonder about that myself.
A shitload of my female 'clients' have way more kids (and criminal minded ones at that) than the honest working types - o.k. maybe these 'clients' don't have all the kids anymore 'cos welfare has taken some off them but generally a lot who have had a lot of kids bloody well shouldn't - even if just for their kids sake.

It's an interesting hypothesis. On one hand is theory that ones position in society is based on intelligence, which if I am not mistaken is what you are alluding too. The other is that intellegence is not based on social position, which is where I tend to come from. Some intelligent people do come from the lower echelons of society. Two spring to mind. Banks and Keys. Mind you there are some who would dispute this unfortunately I'm not one although I could make a case based on their politics alone.:girlfight:

I came across a site that had the IQ for two different sections of society and their economic position in it. It turned out that those with the higher IQ dominated the society that they lived in. This could have been based on their higher education or equally based on what your post alludes to: that the higher intelligence dominates the society because of their higher IQ.

At the end of the day each argument based on racial IQ vis a vis superior or inferior can be disputed with arguements to support any theory for or against.

It's all just an 'educated' guess one way or the other.

Skyryder