Wire (cheese cutter) barriers

[Fub@r]

Close enough - 75%. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10445028

Reason I remembered was even I couldn't believe how high that stat was

[motorbyclist]

right, so motorcyclists dont get a safe barrier because we dont hit them enough, yet when we do it's generally a car's fault?

[Fub@r]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Community/MessageBoard/Messages.aspx?id=21155593&threadid=21155593

im girlgeorgina over there


aaaarrrrhhhh some people are sooo fucken ignorent

After reading some of the garbage posted there I had to have a rant!

That stupid twit that said "Transit wouldn't use them unless they were safe" needs to learn to think for themself

[Riff Raff]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10471713

I found this particularly interesting:


There were not many median barriers on New Zealand's motorways until the late 80s, when a campaign was run by four Auckland intensive care doctors to get them installed.

Auckland District Health Board critical care medicine intensive care specialist Stephen Streat was one of them.

Dr Streat said that although the wire barriers were cheaper, they had pushed for the concrete version.

"As a doctor, there were concerns that the wire might act like a guillotine." he said.'

[klyong82]

Looks like we got TNZ's attention. Now to organise the protest ride to show that we mean business.

[bert_is_evil]

Copy of Pixie's email (modified to suit MP) and response from Marian Hobbs


Hello Marian

As a member of the New Zealand motorcycling community, I am deeply saddened by the recent death of Daniel Evans on the Auckland motorway as a result of his collision with the "cheese-cutter" barrier. We have previously voiced our concerns to LTNZ and Transit NZ regarding the danger to motorcyclists from these barriers to no avail, now as predicted we have had a horrendous fatality of a twenty one year old motorcyclist who's body was sliced in two by the barrier - it was only a matter of time. It is my opinion that these barriers should be modified without delay, other countries have recognised the danger and modified their barriers in addition to banning any new installation.

I hope you can see the need to raise the issue of wire rope barriers on our roads in parliament as a matter of urgency. Thank you for your time

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks, kelly. I will raise this matter with the Minister of transport. i too was shocked to learn of their danger to motor cyclists as a result of that accident. Marian

[motorbyclist]

the saddest part is that it has required a death to get any action. you'd think whoever decided to start installing them would've put plastic on them from day one.

clearly somebody at ltnz wasn't thinking - which it's my understanding we're paying them for

[MSTRS]

the saddest part is that it has required a death to get any action. you'd think whoever decided to start installing them would've put plastic on them from day one.

clearly somebody at ltnz wasn't thinking - which it's my understanding we're paying them for

Situation Normal....

[Hailwood]

Count me in for when that happens..let me know when...also added my comments to those very intelligent people on Tardeme (Buzz122)

[Ozzie]

Myth busters tonight on prime has a segment on precisely this topic, what can a cable do, possibly something worth while in that.

And.....

An idea of a visible peaceful protest.....

In each Major city, as many bikers as possible, same time of day, an organised ride, to arrive simultaneously at either a parliamentary or ltsa office, each biker with a block of cheese, dismount and stack them out the front in full view, with a suitable sign.

[motorbyclist]

here's a suitable sign:


LTNZ's value of human life is less than the cost of a plastic cover over cheese wire barriers


and i was wondering, in light of the cheesewire test videos posted earlier, how ltnz can say using a cheesewire on a centreline will prevent accidents - that car went over a metre into what would have been oncoming traffic!

[Ozzie]

how ltnz can say using a cheesewire on a centreline will prevent accidents - that car went over a metre into what would have been oncoming traffic!
Was wondering the same thing, specially just south of the Bamobays, near Rangiri I think, where it is on the centre line, and both sides of the road.

WTF?

As for signs, there are possibly positions for 2, top one over the cab "WARNING - Cheese Ahead!" bottom, over the tail gate "R.I.P up the Cheese Cutters, not Motorcyclists"

[motorbyclist]

i was thinking last night that perhaps a more graphic - yet illegal, expensive, and potentially dangerous - way to make a point would be to chuck a few sheep/pig carcasses off the back of a ute into those things on the motorway.

obviously not the most sensible, legal, nor viable solution....

[sunhuntin]

i was thinking last night that perhaps a more graphic - yet illegal, expensive, and potentially dangerous - way to make a point would be to chuck a few sheep/pig carcasses off the back of a ute into those things on the motorway.

obviously not the most sensible, legal, nor viable solution....

yeh... itd be better, more sensible and more viable to use a politician. why waste good bbq meat?

[Cynic]

I don't think these have been posted before:

Gabler 2006 - The Risk of Fatality in Motorcycle Crashes with Roadside Barriers, Virginia Tech

VicRoads 2001 - Clear Zones and Roadside Hazards

A bit of bedtime reading :(

[cooneyr]

... i do not place the value of a cagers life any higher than yours or mine. you cannot place a value on a life, no matter whos it is. the wealthy are not worth more than we are, and the poor are not worth less....

Unfortunately we have to put a dollar value on a life or injury to carry out economic analysis. I dont know the detail of how the figure was arrived at but if crash savings are to be achieved by any project the value of the savings generally far outweighs travel time or vehicle operating costs. The problem generally is determining how bigger improvement to safety a project will have.


That is another point. They are DAMN hard to see at night. Why do they not have reflectorised markings?

There is "suppose" to be reflectors on the top of the posts.

Cheers R

[motorbyclist]

yep, really going to stop a head on

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[swbarnett]

Myth busters tonight on prime has a segment on precisely this topic, what can a cable do, possibly something worth while in that.

Trouble is it's not the wires that are the problem (so I've been told).

[JKWNZ]

Its likely they can fiddle the numbers for or against the wire in an economic case.

The real issue is more likely changing Transits policy on the matter... after all I doubt whether cycle lines are cost effective, they are however listed in Transits policy as part of their mandate.

[Pixie]

Not the physical width of the barrier in question, the free space between the traffic flow and said barrier. Installing barriers of any sort requires significantly more road width, and I don't see too much widening or abandonment of lanes going on when they're introduced to any given bit of road...

Wire rope barriers actually require more space - 6 metres between lanes - if the design specs are adhered to.

[Pixie]

A link showing possible modifications to WRBs

http://www.fema.ridersrights.org/crashbarrier/index.html

[bert_is_evil]

arrive simultaneously at either a parliamentary or ltsa office, each biker with a block of cheese, dismount and stack them out the front in full view, with a suitable sign.

I like this idea - it would stick in people's minds and the media would love it

[Ozzie]

Trouble is it's not the wires that are the problem (so I've been told).

really?

Is it the posts? I thought the posts were plastic, but then again, never been close enough to know, and don't want to be either.

And, stight cock up, Mythe Busters is on Mondays.:wacko:

[imdying]

They could sell advertising space on the plastic sheathes, that'd make it attractive for them :yes:

[sunhuntin]

the posts are some kind of metal, maybe aluminum? will see if i can get a good look at some nearby ones at some stage, but its hard cos theres not really a safe stopping point that isnt miles away. the wires are bad, but the posts are worse.

[limbimtimwim]

So say those who build them anyway:

http://www.mwhglobal.co.nz/Files/TMW03-Chisnall.pdf

Page 5.

[Ocean1]

A link showing possible modifications to WRBs

http://www.fema.ridersrights.org/crashbarrier/index.html

Very good material there, from a practical perspective.
Suspect that the main hurdles will be political though...


They could sell advertising space on the plastic sheathes, that'd make it attractive for them :yes:

Damn fine idea, Lotto p'raps? Bendon underwear?


the posts are some kind of metal, maybe aluminum? will see if i can get a good look at some nearby ones at some stage, but its hard cos theres not really a safe stopping point that isnt miles away. the wires are bad, but the posts are worse.

Some are definitely steel, the ones that look like plastic may be, they may be powder coated alloy, I'll look on the way home.

At reasonably low angles of impact I don't believe the wires are anywhere near the danger the posts are. I see a design for soft covers for posts in the above report but I don't think they'd help much, far too little distance to decelerate. Better to prevent contact with the posts with a longitudinal rail, preferably one with a “correct” design deflection.

[Ozzie]

In that case, we should not limit it to cheesecutters, they have started using steel I beems on armco instead of 4x4 posts south of Drury, and through the Hunua Gorge that I have noticed also.

Image that it would be seriously messy to hit one of those at speed too.

So perhaps the focus should be on inappropriate materials for barriers in general, cheesecutters in particular.

On the subject of the actual ride, I think it is important that some rules are set out for behaviour, ie: set a speed limit on the motorway, say 80kph, to keep everyone together, No wheelies, burnouts, stoppies, bins.

It is masively important to portray the appropriate message, and image is everything if we are to be taken seriously.

[sunhuntin]

yes, ozzie. a uk biker i asked about the barriers said a co workers 70-odd year old father died after coming into contact with one of those "I" beans holding up the armco.

[candor]

and this man is an absolute idiot
http://stuff.co.nz/hawkesbay/4198973a23918.html

This is why Wellington based protests can turn sour. The Dompost is a Govt lackey, when it comes to the transport portfolio it is impossible to get fair coverage.

I can say this after several bad experiences - SEVERAL. Sniff the wind of that article motorbyclist has referenced. And don't be led up the garden path with promises of big articles that will get scrapped or turned in to a paragraph item only. Wellington is not where coverage will be fair.

An organisation I work for lately actually had to conduct an event out of area (in Manawatu) just in order to get newspaper coverage! We got it, and then ended up on Close Up as a result, so the strategy worked. Maybe we should charge the Dompost the gas money its cost us to get beyond their reach!

Govt has many "damage control" contingencies for people who try to cause a ruckus in Welly - especially about transport / infrastructure / road safety. It has a plan to kill 300 a year by 2010 and won't be diverted from it!
My guess is that your best bet is to stick with the Herald (&tv3) if they agree as they are not owned by Govt stooges so bad as most newspapers :clap:. And to make the biggest event in Akld. It is an Akld genesis movement.

[Ozzie]

Thing is, unless I have it all wrong, no one is advocating that these things go all together perse, barriers have their place, and do make a difference to safety in general. What is the issue is limiting the use of this design (and other less than fantastic material choices) and making the ones that are the only viable solution, safe.

[Hanne]

best bet is to stick with the Herald (&tv3) if they agree as they are not owned by Govt stooges so bad as most newspapers :clap:. And to make the biggest event in Akld. It is an Akld genesis movement.

I have contacts at The Herald I can speak to about this, they were interested to hear what was happening with parking on Alfred Street earlier this year and said to keep in touch about that and anything else...

[Marmoot]

Why not ask for support from Westpac Heli crews? Ulysses have supported them for years with the Westpac ride. They know themselves the injuries involved with the accidents too. They would be a perfect supporter for this.

The ride can also be organised to similar structure as the yearly Westpac rally.

Other motorcycling 'celebrities' may include Dick Hubbard, motorcycle rider MPs (especially on the opposition bench to ensure they are not colluted with the government voice cone), Brian Tamaki (!), etc.

It is time all riders unite.

[bert_is_evil]

You're kidding about Brian Tamaki arent you?? Surely we'd lose more support than we'd gain with him amoungst our ranks and he'd be more likely to use us for publicity for his own political gain!!

[Marmoot]

give us other alternatives then...

[bert_is_evil]

Gareth and Jo Morgan?

[Colapop]

Done for Wellington - here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=59598)

[*caution*]

Anyone notice that on Auckklands northen motorway where they are doing all the construction for the bus way there is hundreds of meters of concrete dividers down both sides of the south bound lanes!! tThese could be used to replace the cheese grater down the middle, though i think they are probabley owned by Fletcher construction and they are just being used while constructions on, But it'll be a shocker if the busway ends up with concrete all around it (how its looking) while the motorway has the shitty wire cheese grater down the middle?!?

[rwh]

Bendon underwear?

I foresee a problem with target fixation ...

Richard

[DougieNZ]

A few thoughts

I think this campaign is a damn fine idea. I have always worried about them. There is no doubt that there is huge capacity for them to injure/kill/maim motorcyclist WHATEVER speed they are travelling.

There is no doubt that to win this campaign we have to move the hearts and minds of the general public. So a few questions:

Should we be using the term "Cheese Cutters"?

In my opinion, no. No one in the car driving general public would have the first clue about what we are talking about. the term "Wire Rope Barrier" should be used in all press releases/statements - in my opinion.

Now a harder one:

Is the use of the latest tragedy for the campaign going to help us?

I well know that this was a tragic accident that resulted in a horrific loss. It is well out there in the media (like it or not) that a statement from the police mentions a speed "in excess of 150 km/h". So, with that in mind - how are we going to get the public to see that speed was not a factor and that the Wire Rope Barrier was? I know we believe it was, in fact I buy in to the argument that the chances would have been better of survival with a concrete barrier. However, are we going to win the hearts and minds of Joe Public by using this paticular case?

Anyway, I look forward to joining any protest ride that is organised.

[car]

Should we be using the term "Cheese Cutters"?

In my opinion, no. No one in the car driving general public would have the first clue about what we are talking about. the term "Wire Rope Barrier" should be used in all press releases/statements - in my opinion.


Not only is the name confusing to those not in the know, but it risks obscuring the issue -- consensus seems to be that the wires look dangerous, but the posts are the greater risk. Complaining about "cheese cutters" opens the floor for every man and his dog to insist that the complaint isn't valid because the "cheese-cutting" action isn't the problem.

[motorbyclist]

A link showing possible modifications to WRBs

http://www.fema.ridersrights.org/crashbarrier/index.html

"Concrete walls also have the property to prevent heavy vehicles from crossing into the opposing traffic lane. As a consequence they are often used on central reserves, or where there is no room for a metal barrier to deform."


and transit says the wire barriers need less room than the concrete ones!



as for "the campaign", i've notice on the port offramp the "w" section guards that normally have big wide bits of wood behind them have "I" section steel posts.

perhaps we should ditch the catchphrase "cheese wires" and stop asking for anything as extreme as banning their use, but focus more on getting plastic sheets along the exposed posts of all barriers.... the wood ones aren't so bad as they have a reasonable surface area and aren't going to chop off limbs.

[swbarnett]

Should we be using the term "Cheese Cutters"?
Provided the connection to WRSBs is made clear the "Cheese Cutter" term is more emotive and illustrates the potential effect on motorcyclists.


Is the use of the latest tragedy for the campaign going to help us?
We just have to make it clear to people that the speed was largely irrelevant to Dan's survival. No other type of barrier would've cut him in half giving him zero chance.

Also, there are other incidents around the world. For example, there was a decapitation by WRSB after a rider was knocked off by a ladder that fell of the ute in front of them near Sydney.

[jafar]

Is the use of the latest tragedy for the campaign going to help us?

I well know that this was a tragic accident that resulted in a horrific loss. It is well out there in the media (like it or not) that a statement from the police mentions a speed "in excess of 150 km/h". So, with that in mind - how are we going to get the public to see that speed was not a factor and that the Wire Rope Barrier was? I know we believe it was, in fact I buy in to the argument that the chances would have been better of survival with a concrete barrier. However, are we going to win the hearts and minds of Joe Public by using this paticular case?

Anyway, I look forward to joining any protest ride that is organised.

I agree with you , the crash has galvanised us all into action of one kind or another, but as far as publicity it has done bikers no favours with the general public.
Any public statement claiming 'speed' was not a factor would be unwise especially as the police have already stated speed was indeed a factor.
I have to travel over the crash scene every day as do thousands of others, the police were kind enough to mark with white paint the impact point & where each little piece of the wreckage was found. It is a macabre reminder to us all of what can happen. The police estimate of "in excess of 150k" is in all probability conservative.
As other have stated these barriers are dangerous @ 'legal speeds' . This should be the focus of our efforts.

[Drum]

......as for "the campaign", i've notice on the port offramp the "w" section guards that normally have big wide bits of wood behind them have "I" section steel posts......

The holes for the wooden posts cannot be bored into concrete, hence where the barrier is located on a bridge, or other concrete structure, steel posts are bolted to the concrete.

[Drum]

.... the wood ones aren't so bad as they have a reasonable surface area and aren't going to chop off limbs.

Rider got decapitated by one near Wellington Street overpass back in 2000.

[EJK]

crikey... thats nasty

[motorbyclist]

well i didn't say they were safe!

and i heard dan's bike broke (ie, chassis), causing the crash... anyone want to confirm/contest the rumour?

[Zapf]

A few thoughts

So a few questions:

Should we be using the term "Cheese Cutters"?

In my opinion, no. No one in the car driving general public would have the first clue about what we are talking about. the term "Wire Rope Barrier" should be used in all press releases/statements - in my opinion.

Now a harder one:

Is the use of the latest tragedy for the campaign going to help us?

I well know that this was a tragic accident that resulted in a horrific loss. It is well out there in the media (like it or not) that a statement from the police mentions a speed "in excess of 150 km/h". So, with that in mind - how are we going to get the public to see that speed was not a factor and that the Wire Rope Barrier was? I know we believe it was, in fact I buy in to the argument that the chances would have been better of survival with a concrete barrier. However, are we going to win the hearts and minds of Joe Public by using this paticular case?

Anyway, I look forward to joining any protest ride that is organised.

The media has carried the term cheese cutter, and you will be surprised at how many people have know about this. In lack of other "words" this maybe the best one to use. Better suggestions?


I agree with you , the crash has galvanised us all into action of one kind or another, but as far as publicity it has done bikers no favours with the general public.
Any public statement claiming 'speed' was not a factor would be unwise especially as the police have already stated speed was indeed a factor.
I have to travel over the crash scene every day as do thousands of others, the police were kind enough to mark with white paint the impact point & where each little piece of the wreckage was found. It is a macabre reminder to us all of what can happen. The police estimate of "in excess of 150k" is in all probability conservative.
As other have stated these barriers are dangerous @ 'legal speeds' . This should be the focus of our efforts.

For the record, the police has not complete the investigations. I suspect they are basing off my approximate estimation in my statement to them for their estimate. (I was the single witness to the incident)

[MSTRS]

.... the wood ones aren't so bad as they have a reasonable surface area and aren't going to chop off limbs.


Rider got decapitated by one near Wellington Street overpass back in 2000.

Exactly, Drum. Also see Spanks video thread http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=59540

[Colapop]

http://www.network.mag-uk.org/barriers/barrierspeakdistrict.html

[DougieNZ]

The media has carried the term cheese cutter, and you will be surprised at how many people have know about this. In lack of other "words" this maybe the best one to use. Better suggestions?

For the record, the police has not complete the investigations. I suspect they are basing off my approximate estimation in my statement to them for their estimate. (I was the single witness to the incident)



Yep - Wire Rope Barrier. Excellent interview from you last night Felix - you used both terms. Interestingly I asked my other 1/2 (she rides) last night what a cheesecutter was - no idea.... But she does agree that WRB's are dangerous!

Cool - fair enough. I have to give TV3 some credit for not mentioning the speed. It potentiallly is an issue in the actiual incident, but not in the injuries recieved. I believe the injuries received could/would well have happened at legal speeds also. I guess that is the point that we want the general public to get. We don't want the speed clouding the issue...Big ups to TV3 for the balanced article last night.

Interestingly, and exactly as I predicted, several replies on the Herald site from members of the public have used the speed in the incident as an argument against the campaign. What a shame they don't get the point...

[DougieNZ]

Interestingly, armco barriers are just as dangerous! The missus had an 'off' on the Rimutaka hill Rd a few years back while learning. Sliding across the road fine with full protective gear.

Then hit the barrier post (under the armco). Cracked ribs and knocked out. Another set of armco underneath could well have prevented those injures. She ended up under the armco wrapped around the post!

[Pixie]

Why not ask for support from Westpac Heli crews? Ulysses have supported them for years with the Westpac ride. They know themselves the injuries involved with the accidents too. They would be a perfect supporter for this.

The ride can also be organised to similar structure as the yearly Westpac rally.

Other motorcycling 'celebrities' may include Dick Hubbard, motorcycle rider MPs (especially on the opposition bench to ensure they are not colluted with the government voice cone), Brian Tamaki (!), etc.

It is time all riders unite.
Other people we might approach are the "media bikers" Richard Driver,Andrew Shaw,Mark Sainsbury....
They might be able to use they contacts to get a "public service" ad on TV

[Usarka]

There's been a few comments that the wire barriers are not good in a situation where there is little room either side as a car will still go onto the other side of the road.

The counter to that is and will be that the barrier will act as a brake, and that it is better for a car (or bike for that matter) to hit an on coming car when it has slowed drastically than at 100kph. Eg a 110kph impact is much more survivable than 200kph.

If there isn't room for concrete barrier then I don't think anyone would succeed in saying having no barrier is better than a cheese cutter. The life of one motorcyclist is far cheaper than the lives of 10 car drivers. Simple fact. The effort in this situation needs to be implementing the safest possible option (eg the idea about sleeves).

I'm still very concerned about these being used on the sides of the roads and in places with shitloads of room......

[sAsLEX]

I'm still very concerned about these being used on the sides of the roads and in places with shitloads of room......

I think thats what worries alot of bikers, the ones on the left, they serve no purpose that has been pointed out to me and passes my tests of logic, about the only thing they achieve is make these sections more dangerous in all situations!?

[Hitcher]

I'm still very concerned about these being used on the sides of the roads and in places with shitloads of room......

Indeed. These have been recently randomly applied as roadside barriers along the Pekapeka straight north of Waikanae. I say "randomly" because it appears that their intention is to keep vehicles out of drainage channels that run parallel to the main road (not that vehicles doing so is anything close to a common occurance), but yet there are still vast expanses of "unprotected" drains that appear no less dangerous than those bits that are now fenced.

The worst use of cheesecutter (I think) in the Greater Wellington region is on SH58 -- the Haywards Hill road, where it is used as a median barrier on a stretch of narrow road with off-camber corners and an extremely marginal road surface.

[Drum]

.....where it is used as a median barrier on a stretch of narrow road with off-camber corners and an extremely marginal road surface.

Which is why it is there. Because off-camber corners and marginal road surfaces contrubute to cars crossing the centreline and the subsequent potential for a head on crash. Riders were never considered in the equation.

[sAsLEX]

Which is why it is there. Because off-camber corners and marginal road surfaces contrubute to cars crossing the centreline and the subsequent potential for a head on crash. Riders were never considered in the equation.
Yeah dont fix the inherent problem slap a band aid on it!


GO FUCKIN NZ!

[Hitcher]

Riders were never considered in the equation.

And road designers and builders are never convicted for murder.

[sels1]

The media has carried the term cheese cutter, and you will be surprised at how many people have know about this. In lack of other "words" this maybe the best one to use. Better suggestions?

"Body Slicers" - gets the message thru in 2 words.

[Colapop]

http://www.network.mag-uk.org/barriers/barrierspeakdistrict.html
The above link shows a viable alternative as an addition to existing armco barriers. Reducing the rate of injuries to riders significantly.

[raster]

Yep - Wire Rope Barrier. Excellent interview from you last night Felix - you used both terms. Interestingly I asked my other 1/2 (she rides) last night what a cheesecutter was - no idea.... But she does agree that WRB's are dangerous!

Cool - fair enough. I have to give TV3 some credit for not mentioning the speed. It potentiallly is an issue in the actiual incident, but not in the injuries recieved. I believe the injuries received could/would well have happened at legal speeds also. I guess that is the point that we want the general public to get. We don't want the speed clouding the issue...Big ups to TV3 for the balanced article last night.

Interestingly, and exactly as I predicted, several replies on the Herald site from members of the public have used the speed in the incident as an argument against the campaign. What a shame they don't get the point...

When was this interview on TV3 last night, has anybody got a link to it?

[Drum]

And road designers and builders are never convicted for murder.

Murder requires intent. The road designers and builders have a genuine intention to improve road safety. It is ignorance that is the problem.

[DougieNZ]

http://tv3.co.nz/VideoBrowseAll/NationalVideo/tabid/309/articleID/37392/Default.aspx?articleID=37392#video

Was on the 6pm News

[sunhuntin]

The worst use of cheesecutter (I think) in the Greater Wellington region is on SH58 -- the Haywards Hill road, where it is used as a median barrier on a stretch of narrow road with off-camber corners and an extremely marginal road surface.

do you mean the actual hill, or the road that runs along the water? been a year since i was over that way, and my memory has faded somewhat.

[swbarnett]

The life of one motorcyclist is far cheaper than the lives of 10 car drivers. Simple fact.
Another fact is that this, although true, is discrimination.


The effort in this situation needs to be implementing the safest possible option (eg the idea about sleeves).
If there is no room to install a barrier properly one should not be installed. They need to pull finger and widen the road first.

[swbarnett]

Murder requires intent. The road designers and builders have a genuine intention to improve road safety. It is ignorance that is the problem.
What about manslaughter then?

[Colapop]

do you mean the actual hill, or the road that runs along the water? been a year since i was over that way, and my memory has faded somewhat.
On the Hutt Valley side of the hill. As you come over the rise at the top of the hill heading down to the Hutt Valley past the substation.

[sunhuntin]

On the Hutt Valley side of the hill. As you come over the rise at the top of the hill heading down to the Hutt Valley past the substation.

ok, thanks for that. i hate that road with a vengence... went over it last year and damn near didnt make it out the other end. damn cagers who tailgate an l plater on a new road, fucktards. never again [cept as pillion or in a car]

[limbimtimwim]

do you mean the actual hill, or the road that runs along the water? been a year since i was over that way, and my memory has faded somewhat.It is discussed/advertised here: http://www.mwhglobal.co.nz/Files/TMW03-Chisnall.pdf .

If you read between the lines, they kinda own up to breaking the standard ('Agreed in consultation with Transit'), cost cutting and experimenting on us ('first “retrofit” installation on a 3-lane highway').

[motorbyclist]

For the record, the police has not complete the investigations. I suspect they are basing off my approximate estimation in my statement to them for their estimate. (I was the single witness to the incident)

can you say what you saw or the speed involved, or should we wait for the police report?

[motorbyclist]

When was this interview on TV3 last night, has anybody got a link to it?


http://tv3.co.nz/VideoBrowseAll/NationalVideo/tabid/309/articleID/37392/Default.aspx?articleID=37392#video

Was on the 6pm News

that was on a while ago....

[motorbyclist]

Motorcycling safety consultant Allan Kirk told the New Zealand Herald the wire barriers could be justified in some places, such as the narrow coastal highway north of Wellington, but it was "utterly unforgivable" of Transit to install them where there was room for steel ones.


wasn't he just saying a few days ago that there was nothing wrong with them!?

[candor]

Are others now unable to ride/drive by graters without getting transfixed?

The Haywards grater is quite easy to visualise something nasty happening.

Idea - chunk it - focus efforts on one or two obvious high risks to get covers. Like Rangiriri or Haywards. And in heavy density Auckland motorway.

Find out how many bikes travel that road/s chosen daily then ask Transit how many skewered bikers are built in to its projections along with how many likely to be saved from head ons.

Once it's achieved in one place you know the hurdles of approvals etc are overcome, and it makes for a good focus on the goal initially as well, rather than having vague nationwide goals.

[motorbyclist]

exactly: if we go asking for some extreme measures like banning them, we wont get anywhere

[sunhuntin]

Are others now unable to ride/drive by graters without getting transfixed?

The Haywards grater is quite easy to visualise something nasty happening.

Idea - chunk it - focus efforts on one or two obvious high risks to get covers. Like Rangiriri or Haywards. And in heavy density Auckland motorway.

Find out how many bikes travel that road/s chosen daily then ask Transit how many skewered bikers are built in to its projections along with how many likely to be saved from head ons.

Once it's achieved in one place you know the hurdles of approvals etc are overcome, and it makes for a good focus on the goal initially as well, rather than having vague nationwide goals.

i cope alright with the welly coastal road in daylight, but the one time ive done it at night, i was a nervous wreck, crawling at about 50k and as far left as i could get. same goes for the kaitoke ones and others ive seen... they are ok in daylight, but bad at night, due to the lack of reflectors. you know they are there, but not where!

[Drum]

.... The life of one motorcyclist is far cheaper than the lives of 10 car drivers. Simple fact.......

Actually, the cost of a fatal motorcycle crash is similar to that of a fatal car crash, it's just that there are many more cars than bikes.

[Ocean1]

i cope alright with the welly coastal road in daylight, but the one time ive done it at night, i was a nervous wreck, crawling at about 50k and as far left as i could get. same goes for the kaitoke ones and others ive seen... they are ok in daylight, but bad at night, due to the lack of reflectors. you know they are there, but not where!

Yes, most of Haywards hill is unlit, and the rest poorly, the Buell's headlight's aren't great, but they're at least average. It really surprised me how little of the barrier I could see when heading down into the valley, and that little reduces to nill in the lights of oncoming traffic. Scary. The disturbing thing is that reflectors would make a big difference at very little extra cost, and yet they're not fitted...

[Usarka]

Another fact is that this, although true, is discrimination.



Actually, the cost of a fatal motorcycle crash is similar to that of a fatal car crash, it's just that there are many more cars than bikes.

I'll rephrase; a median barrier may save ten lives and cause one death. that's a net gain of nine lives saved. (numbers made up obviously, but you get the picture).

the economics of removing a barrier to save that one life do not make sense and would (IMHO) be a futile and counter productive argument.

[Colapop]

The argument here is not to completely remove barriers per se. It is to replace wire rope barriers with a safer and as equally cost effective alternative. Armco barriers with an additional bottom rail are an alternative.

[Nasty]

The argument here is not to completely remove barriers per se. It is to replace wire rope barriers with a safer and as equally cost effective alternative. Armco barriers with an additional bottom rail are an alternative.

Or to make the new barriers safer e.g. put coverings over them if that has proved to work.

[motorbyclist]

Actually, the cost of a fatal motorcycle crash is similar to that of a fatal car crash, it's just that there are many more cars than bikes.

has anyone else looked at that chart and noticed all the bike accidents cost the same, except headons which cost only a little bit more (relatively)?

if we lose a life, and a bike is written off in all cases, how is the head on more expensive?

[swbarnett]

I'll rephrase; a median barrier may save ten lives and cause one death. that's a net gain of nine lives saved. (numbers made up obviously, but you get the picture).

the economics of removing a barrier to save that one life do not make sense and would (IMHO) be a futile and counter productive argument.
I don't dispute that, on overall balance, lives are saved having barriers in place. I just ask that the barrier be motorcycle friendly.

No road safety improvement should reduce the safety level for anyone. Making the road less safe for a particular group, in this case motorcyclists, is blatant discrimination. If the difference was race instead transport choice it'd be a different story.

[Drum]

One thing to remember is that a rider may have lost his life by striking the wire rope barrier, but how many riders lives have been saved because a WRB was in place? And how many lives could have been saved by having a WRB where there was none?

[motorbyclist]

we don't want them removed!!! we just want them rider friendly!


argh, i feel the general cager public is not going to realise how needlessly dangerous these things are,

[Drum]

we don't want them removed!!! we just want them rider friendly!....

And I support that in principal. But think of this: How many riders have been killed by hitting a power pole or a tree, compared to how many have been killed by hitting a WRB? Is anyone riding to parliament to get the power poles and trees removed?

[sAsLEX]

And I support that in principal. But think of this: How many riders have been killed by hitting a power pole or a tree, compared to how many have been killed by hitting a WRB? Is anyone riding to parliament to get the power poles and trees removed?

How many power poles and trees are placed in the centre of the road?

[Drum]

In the median you mean? A few - maybe not on motorways - but that's irrelevant.

The point I'm making is that wire rope barriers are the threat du jour. If someone dies from hitting a tree or power pole next week, what do we do then?

[cowboy]

And I support that in principal. But think of this: How many riders have been killed by hitting a power pole or a tree, compared to how many have been killed by hitting a WRB? Is anyone riding to parliament to get the power poles and trees removed?

At least with trees & poles there is a chance you will mis them if you fall
With the WRB's you have no chance

[sAsLEX]

In the median you mean? A few - maybe not on motorways - but that's irrelevant.

The point I'm making is that wire rope barriers are the threat du jour. If someone dies from hitting a tree or power pole next week, what do we do then?

The threats you mention are generally a few meters off the side of the road, physical separation is a good thing.



Light poles on the MW are now fitted with bolts that shear easily in an impact to make them safer......

[Drum]

At least with trees & poles there is a chance you will mis them if you fall
With the WRB's you have no chance

But what do the statistics indicate are more dangerous to bikers? WRB's or trees?

[Drum]

...Light poles on the MW are now fitted with bolts that shear easily in an impact to make them safer......

Have been for years - shear bolts - that won't do you much good on a bike. They are designed to shear off when struck by a car, close to the shear plate.

Don't get me wrong here - I am a biker - I support anything that makes roadside hazards more forgiving. All I'm saying is that barriers are only one hazard, and the stats show they are not the worst hazard.

[sAsLEX]

But what do the statistics indicate are more dangerous to bikers? WRB's or trees?

Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.


You drive from Huntly through to Auckland and tell me that if you had a front blow out what is going to jump up and bite you in the arse.

The trees off to the side of the road, or the WRB 1 meter to the left of the lane or the WRB 1 meter to the right of the lane?

[cowboy]

But what do the statistics indicate are more dangerous to bikers? WRB's or trees?

I dont now what the stats are but I would say they will change over time
Trees & poles have been here a lot longer than WRB's

[motorbyclist]

again, wrbs don't have to be dangerous; a plastic guard is cheap.


padding every tree along every highway however, is a little bit stupid... and trees should be much less dangerous: they are further from the road, so you should be travelling a bit slower, they are either big and non-cut off limbs, or they are thin and bendy.

my years of crashing dirtbikes into all sorts of greenery at assorted velocities/rotation/ and on/under/behind/infront of bike tell me that while big pine trees are generally solid if you hit the trunk, branches do a lot to slow you, and both gorse and blackberry are the worst things to land in and have to climb out of, but the things to watch out for are the broken spikes left on a tree from the last crash. that thin, short, hard stick that once was a branch; might as well have a metal rod sticking out - and ltnz is putting millions of metal rods all along our highways.

edit: similarily, while a power pole will hurt you, possibly very badly, it isn't localised pressure; the pressure on your body will be much less severe and will just squish/break you, rather than grab and dismember....

[Zapf]

I dont now what the stats are but I would say they will change over time
Trees & poles have been here a lot longer than WRB's

We never had WRB's lining the both side of our roads before. Hence there will be next to no stats on people getting diced on them. We can wait until "WE" build up enough stats, but who will be left to protest?

[motorbyclist]

exactly - there's plenty of stats overseas, and plenty of solutions. why ltnz refuses to learn from other's mistakes is beyond me...


and i hear an argument that NZ roads are too different from europe... i cannot see how that can be true

[sAsLEX]

and i hear an argument that NZ roads are too different from europe... i cannot see how that can be true

we drive on the left maybe?

[motorbyclist]

haha yeah, cause that is really going to change the barrier statistics!

mind you, with some of the cagers i've seen on other forums i'm genuinely surprised no-one's tried to pull that yet

[Conquiztador]

In the past things were done without too much consideration about saefty.

Playgrounds were done with concrete flooring. We now realise that it was not a good idea and rubber matting has been fitted to all of them.

Cages were fitted with a motor and four wheels, a seat and some driving instruments. Off we went. Now you would not buy one without seatbelts and all sorts of saefty gizmos.

Kids were happily put in cars holding a lollipop as the only thing keeping them safe. Now they need to be placed in approved saefty seats

Cigarettes were sold as a must have thingy if you wanted to be considered cool. Now they have written warnings on them telling us that they kill.

There was a time when LSD was legal...

Ther government has decided that kids can not eat pies at schools as it is not good for them...

And after all this (and heaps more regulations) to keep us safe, they keep on fitting Wire Barriers to roads. Wire Barriers that have been proven to kill motorcyclists on impact. Wire Barriers that other countries have banned, are modifying or removing and replacing.

If there had been a decision to fit rubbish bins on the side of the roads that drivers can, without slowing down, throw their rubbish in. BUT this invention would have ripped one kids arm off. Do you think that the decision makers would say: "One kids arm a year is a price we are prepared to live with as this saves 6 millions a year in cleaning up costs..."

[candor]

and i hear an argument that NZ roads are too different from europe... i cannot see how that can be true

Yeah they're different in that we already underwent a 20 year widening program all across main highways, in preparation for concrete barriers (before graters invented).

The only way to solve this is to get all the taxpayers interested in road safety and educated and demanding a quality safe road system.

Most places wouldn't olerate a near third world toll like we have. Its both uneconomic and tragic. The tight purse strings are completely lose - lose.

There are some very sick people in politics - it's nothing less than the T word what they are doing to road users in this country. And they can,because on their salaries they can afford to drive tanks - even at speed,to the game.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=311590
Dan gets mentioned at bottom.

[swbarnett]

But what do the statistics indicate are more dangerous to bikers? WRB's or trees?
If you actually hit either probably the trees. However, the chances of hitting a tree are a lot lower than those of hitting a continuous barrier.

[raster]

At the moment we are shit scared of them. After a while we will be imune to them and become blazay(sp), the stats should start showing like they have overseas, they started with no casualties, took about 2 years for the numbers to show up.

I did notice north of Huntly, south of the Glenn Murry turnoff on the Freeway the WRB posts were rounded, did not have the sharp edge. I also didn't see any sign of repairs on that section:whistle:.

Make the posts rounded and softer?????

3c worth?

[motorbyclist]

someone posted an engineer report about safetly devices, and one solution was a polystyrene cover over the posts. softer and bigger impact area - still not as good as an uninterrupted surface imo

[Ocean1]

someone posted an engineer report about safetly devices, and one solution was a polystyrene cover over the posts. softer and bigger impact area - still not as good as an uninterrupted surface imo

Yes, this is a solution I would rather not see implimented. It's likely to be one of the less costly answers, (if not the cheapest) but I don't believe it's an adequate one. A deceleration from impact velocity to zero over about 100mm might be better than exposure to the raw edges of the posts, but not much better.

From the data currently available I think a good cost/benefit engineering solution is the addition of some form of longitudinal isolating member. One potential issue with any modification is that it's likely to invalidate whatever engineering design analisys was used to specify the original WRB. The WRB manufacurer or an engineering consultant would certainly have to approve any design changes.

I like the idea of using an extruded plastic rail, perhaps EPDM. The price should be competitive with most other suitable materials, it's got a very low friction co-effecient, it's suitable for that environment. Maybe a section could be developed whereby the two rails either side of the posts would clip together, with that part of the rail cut away around each post....

[EJK]

OK I'm lost... this thread has reached 24th page and I can't find the flyers lol
Where are the flyers?!?!

Edit: Nevermind! I wasn't looking hard enough lol
Found it!

[motorbyclist]

I like the idea of using an extruded plastic rail, perhaps EPDM.

hell it can be wood for all i care!

just put some planks along the barrier legs, maybe a 30mm gap between planks maximum. shouldn't look to bad, will save limbs, and is a use for that pesky carbon:lol:

haha, save bikers AND the climate! the greens will love us:D

either that or a plastic/steel/tin sheet along the legs. plastic and wood should give out nicely when a car impacts so shouldn't do much to change it's car slowing ability, and they are cheap/easy to install/replace

and might help block headlights and thus reduce glare

[Pixie]

YThe WRB manufacurer or an engineering consultant would certainly have to approve any design changes.

Why? They obviously didn't approve the barrier's installation,less than 0.5 m from the lane


I like the idea of using an extruded plastic rail, perhaps EPDM. The price should be competitive with most other suitable materials, it's got a very low friction co-effecient, it's suitable for that environment. Maybe a section could be developed whereby the two rails either side of the posts would clip together, with that part of the rail cut away around each post....

Mototub,as they use in France is tubing extruded in recycled plastic - around 300mm in diameter.
Two parallel runs, one above the other are attached to the posts

Pics here
http://www.fema.ridersrights.org/crashbarrier/index.html

[cooneyr]

....Mototub,as they use in France is tubing extruded in recycled plastic - around 300mm in diameter.
Two parallel runs, one above the other are attached to the posts

Pics here
http://www.fema.ridersrights.org/crashbarrier/index.html

Just seen the pics of Mototub in the attachment of the post quoted. There is note in the attachment (FEMA doc) about them being supposedly applicable to the cable barrier (WRB). I'm not so sure that this is the case as an armco W rail (as shown in the picture in section 4.1.2 associated with the notes on Mototub) is mounted on 100mm x 100mm wooden posts normally (or steel post on bridges or atop retaining walls) is much more rigid than the posts used to support WRB's.

I think if there is any promotion of products to improve safety that they need to be appropriate for the barrier e.g. mototub for armco and Plastrail for WRB's. Make the point that this is the concept required (i.e. stop bodies hitting the posts) but the solution for NZ needs to be determined yet however these are some ideas from Europe. Weather and sun conditions are very different here from Europe (Europeans get sun burnt very easily over here and not at home as our sun is much harsher) i.e. UV effects on plastic etc.

Cheers R

[Ocean1]

Why? They obviously didn't approve the barrier's installation,less than 0.5 m from the lane

Someone did, nowadays nothing happens without a formal safety analysis. The fact that such work still allows the installation of the likes of WRBs is a reflection of the regulatory framework rather than the engineering involved. The purpose of such safety analysis is to placate OSH, not to define best-practice safety procedures. Cynical? Me?


Mototub,as they use in France is tubing extruded in recycled plastic - around 300mm in diameter.
Two parallel runs, one above the other are attached to the posts

Like it. :niceone:

[Ixion]

Well, on Friday I departed darn Souf, to Terra Banjo. On passing down the Southern Motorway, I naturally took much notice of the cheescutters. And I observed, to my surprise, that Transit have, perhaps unwittingly, provided some of the cheesecutters with protection that would not make them entirely safe, but which would I, I think, help a lot. And which is pretty much free!

On one section of the motorway, not far from the recent crash site, Transit (presumably) have planted bushes along the line of the wire. I am not one who knows the names of all the various bushes or shrubs , but these are a very tight compact bush, that forms a ball shape about 6 to 8 foot in diameter, reaching to the ground. In some places they completely enclose the barrier on both sides. I stopped and poked one of the bushes, and it was a good strong woody thing , with close knit interwoven branches.

Now, in my misspent youth, I gained very great experience of the results of hurtling at high speed into all manner of vegetation. And believe me, nothing slows you down as effectively, but without serious injury as a good quickset hedge or cutty grass bush . These would be nearly as good as a hedge, and with 3 foot of vegetation on each side I'm sure that the slicing effects of the barrier would be greatly reduced (the branches break and compress up, and form a sort of mat.) .And at the same time a car hitting them , being heavier, would not rebound much if at all.

Improved safety, for free, and it's even environmentally positive.

[riffer]

My god Les, I think you've discovered the answer!

And it's carbon neutral.

They're bound to go for it. :banana:

[tri boy]

I agree.
Just goes to show, when in need of inspiration, turning to nature often brings results.:yes:

[motorbyclist]

i read that a certain typre of thornless blackberry over in europe is being trialled as it will slow a car as effectively as it's brakes, and posed very little damage to bikers..


personally, i've seen guys jump off cars at 50kph into flax bushes are come out laughing... and dirtbikes are a good way to learn the cushioning power of vegetation

[Ocean1]

personally, i've seen guys jump off cars at 50kph into flax bushes are come out laughing... and dirtbikes are a good way to learn the cushioning power of vegetation

Dude if Mum catches you riding in the garden shrubbery again she’s gonna be pissed.


But you’re right, in more civilised countries motorways and even freeways have medians many metres wide, usually planted with shrubbery very similar to a lot of NZ native bush.

[Sanx]

Dude if Mum catches you riding in the garden shrubbery again she’s gonna be pissed.


But you’re right, in more civilised countries motorways and even freeways have medians many metres wide, usually planted with shrubbery very similar to a lot of NZ native bush.

And what's more, those areas often become a wildlife haven. in the UK, you'll see kestrels hovering above motorweay embankments on a very regular basis. No-one ever goes there, so mice and voles come out to play.

I was thinking the same thing on the way home from Taupo last night, probably about the same set of bushes. However ... they take a while to grow and don't provide 100% coverage.

[cooneyr]

The vegetation is a solution that Transit would lap up but I can see it not being applicable in all situations. There will be locations where sight distance will be a problem and other locations where digging up the pavement to plant the vegetation will potential result in issues with water getting into the pavement. Definatly another solution to push - Vegetation where applicable, Mototub on Armco and similar concept on WRB's.

I'm not sure there is need to manufacture a new product i.e. NZ version of Mototub. A product such as black LDPE or HDPE (Low or High Density Polyethylene known as Alkathene (not sure this is the right spelling)) pipe of the right diameter (up to 300mm diameter available here (http://www.iplex.co.nz/productdetails.asp?id=71&catName=BLACK%20BRUTE%20MK%20II)) . I would think a low pressure (thin wall) version of the pipe would have enough strength. It would come in rolls in the order of 50 to 100m long so should be easier to install than shorter lengths. Just need to find a suitable method of attaching it to the posts which I'm sure would be a piece of cake.

Anybody know how HDPE stands up to UV over a long time. Any farmers out there who have had a bit exposed on their farm for 20 years? The old man had some lying around on the farm for 10 or so years in the sun and it appears to be fine - hasn't become brittle yet.

Cheers R

[car]

I agree.
Just goes to show, when in need of inspiration, turning to nature often brings results.:yes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin

[RiderInBlack]

On one section of the motorway, not far from the recent crash site, Transit (presumably) have planted bushes along the line of the wire. I am not one who knows the names of all the various bushes or shrubs , but these are a very tight compact bush, that forms a ball shape about 6 to 8 foot in diameter, reaching to the ground. In some places they completely enclose the barrier on both sides. I stopped and poked one of the bushes, and it was a good strong woody thing , with close knit interwoven branches.
Improved safety..... environmentally positive.Had thought this would be ideal in most greener areas of NZ. OK the hedging would need regular trimming so not "fee" or as cheep as some would think, but it would not only make the barriers more absorbing, but also "beautify" the barriers and the wire barriers would stop vehicles going right though the bushes.

[Ozzie]

The problem is only that it is very patchy.

The bit where Dan met his fate, 100 meters either side has these things.

They are a good idea, but, to be effective, like anything else, they need to be consistent.

These aren't.

Without regular maintenance, they become sparse, patchy, inconsistent and ineffective.

We need, as much as ever, someone to not make a half arsed attempt, be consistent, and basically, Give A Shit!

[sunhuntin]

suitable where there is already a few foot of grass verge, but cant see it workin on the wellington road.

[motorbyclist]

i see concrete working there better than wire

[Ocean1]

suitable where there is already a few foot of grass verge, but cant see it workin on the wellington road.

Yes, most places I've seen them there's minimal room, probably the reason they're there in the first place.

I think that's the core problem, there's simply inadequate seperation between opposing traffic flows on almost all of NZ's main roads. The trend overseas has been towards green medians some 10 to 15 metres wide for many years.

NZ's very wrinkled though, a challenging shape on which to construct or widen roads, and we have a lot of miles of road for our population. That makes for a comparitively high cost, and while widening roads to include a broad median is probably the "correct" fix it's simply not going to happen any time soon.

Having said that it's obvious that a lot of WRB installations are far closer to traffic than most authorities advise. It looks very much like a cost/benefit equation based on an inadequate budget. I don't think the modifications discussed so far represent an inappropriate expectation. Expensive certainly, but if the cost of the WRBs is what I've heard ($700K/Km) then it's hardly a massive increase to what's ultimately been a cheap solution in the first place.

[Conquiztador]

personally, i've seen guys jump off cars at 50kph into flax bushes are come out laughing...

Clearly these guys would not laugh at my jokes...

[cold comfort]

They need to go.

As usual it takes a tragedy before action is taken, so this thread is for compiling information about why they should be removed, so lets stick to the facts.


Whats wrong with them
Should they be removed or modified
What other countries have done
How to approach/convince Transit NZ

No idle comments or guesses please. We just need info.

While i abhor these things, and agree with the justifiable outrage felt by many, i hope the protest action does not degenerate into a 3 ring circus and is subsequently neutered by fast talking local body politicians and dept heads with vested interests. I believe the campaign needs to be coordinated,considered, achieveable and professional to succeed. The presentation also needs to be coherent, and data watertight to avoid being minimised or merely dismissed. Feedback i have had from BRONZ is encouraging and look forward to tomorrows meeting.
From Bronz (Lyn Mckie)
i promised I would update you on the National meeting discussions on rope barriers.
The issue was discussed at length - and I do mean at length. Wholehearted agreement that we all dislike these barriers but a grudging acceptance that no barrier is good for riders. We have come up with a plan of attack that is underway. Auckland BRONZ and National Prez will be taking the lead on this but Areas are encouraged to get the message out as well.

1. Meet with Transit NZ to hear from them why they use the Brifen Wire Rope Barrier and what considerations are taken into account to decide the type of road safety measure to be used - I firmly believe the cost issue is big but it will be interesting to see what they say. This meeting is being organised with the Transit rep Dave Bates and Finn - our new National President along with Les Mason - the Auckland President. We did try to organise for Transit to be at the meeting on Saturday but time was too tight - Transit have said they are keen to meet so that's a good start.
The Kiwi Biker people are also working on this but in a more visible and probably a more radical way - comments apparently of taking to the wire rope barriers with gas cutters! They are organising a protest run which is a shame really because like a strike a protest run is really your last action. Anyways the agreed BRONZ approach is to work with Govt/agencies on a reasonable and realistic basis. We won't get the use of these barriers stopped completely I believe but we need their use to be assessed to acknowledge any increased risk to motorcyclists. We need to know what the risks are for all barriers - wire rope, concrete & Armco. We also want to make sure these barriers are used appropriately - we do not agree with them being used on the outside of corners or on single lane roads (the Kapati Cost road out of Wgtn is the worst example of this in NZ). We need to make sure they are being used as they are designed to be too.

2. Set a position and get it known
BRONZ has concerns about road barriers, in particular Brifen wire rope barriers. We'll take the opportunity to meet with Transit to discuss the problem. We will be asking Transit to
a) review the deployment of the Brifen Wire Rope Barrier
b) halt further deployment until the review is completed, and
c) develop an action plan to make existing barriers "safer" for motorcyclists.

On c) - I want to see measures taken to reduce the risk associated with impact against barriers generally - a lot is being done in Europe to reduce the risks for motorcyclists. Some of the solutions are simple and can make a big difference.

I've been in contact with Transit locally - the regional manager is Mike O'Cain and he is OK to deal with. He's out of town at the moment so I'll try him again later in the week. I am also drafting a letter to the Ed for the ODT to get our position out there - it would be good if we could get a few letters in the paper about this to raise the profile locally and to show Transit motorcyclists are worried about this down here as well.

3. Petition - we understand Kiwi Biker could be putting a petition together. We will wait and see what they come up with - if OK from BRONZ perspective we will encourage members and all riders to support it.

So - at this stage we are working on building a reasonable relationship with Transit so they see us as the people to deal with over this, ultimately to get improvements in the use of wire rope barriers as well as other barriers.
More discussion at the meeting on Thursday I'm sure.
Ride safe
Lyn

[vifferman]

I wrote to my local MP, Dr Jonathan Coleman.
Here is his reply:

Thanks for your email- it's always good to hear from people in the electorate. I saw the coverage regarding Daniel Evans on the tv news and was frankly shocked by his tragic death. I agree with you that these cheesecutter barriers need to be replaced. I am going to make my concerns known to Maurice Williamson, our transport spokesman.
Regards, Jonathan
Dr Jonathan Coleman
MP for Northcote

[Mom]

On one section of the motorway, not far from the recent crash site, Transit (presumably) have planted bushes along the line of the wire. I am not one who knows the names of all the various bushes or shrubs , but these are a very tight compact bush, that forms a ball shape about 6 to 8 foot in diameter, reaching to the ground. In some places they completely enclose the barrier on both sides. I stopped and poked one of the bushes, and it was a good strong woody thing , with close knit interwoven branches.


Those shrubs are called Hebe. I noticed them too on my way down to the protest ride. They are reasonably low maintenance, but do need to be cut back reasonably hard for them to maintain thier denseness. They are prone to become leggy if left alone. Nice spotting Mr Ixion.

[zaq]

Gidday... there was a pic of a car vs cheesecutter in a post recently, which I just can't find. I was hoping to include it in my office newsletter with a link to www.cheesecutter.co.nz

If you know where it is, please can you repost it.

Thanks heaps.

Zaq

[MSTRS]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1283694&postcount=1

[Sanx]

Gidday... there was a pic of a car vs cheesecutter in a post recently, which I just can't find. I was hoping to include it in my office newsletter with a link to www.cheesecutter.co.nz

If you know where it is, please can you repost it.

Thanks heaps.

Zaq

Or check the Barrier Info page on the Cheesecutter website.

[motorbyclist]

i always wondered what would happen if a car's bonnet was lower than the wires... now we know....

(http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=75615&d=1194426291)


imagine if they were in a convertible?

[Sanx]

i always wondered what would happen if a car's bonnet was lower than the wires... now we know....

(http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=75615&d=1194426291)


imagine if they were in a convertible?

By the time the car came to rest, they were in a convertible.:mellow:

[boomer]

By the time the car came to rest, they were in a convertible.:mellow:

With a flip top head. Makes cleaning ya teeth easier huh!

[DEATH_INC.]

i always wondered what would happen if a car's bonnet was lower than the wires... now we know....

(http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=75615&d=1194426291)


imagine if they were in a convertible?
Yep, or any car with a low pointy bonnet (ferrari, porsche, lambo, vette, rx7 etc...) or something like a mx5 (where the hell would we be without hairdressers???) or s2000 etc.

[Sanx]

mx5 (where the hell would we be without hairdressers???)

Surprised you can remember what hairdressers are for, mate. :buggerd:

Anyway - my other half's got an MX5. She's no hairdresser. But then, she is engaged to a Honda rider, so what do you expect.
(just get that in before anyone else says it)

[rwh]

... something like a mx5 (where the hell would we be without hairdressers???)

Just aim more carefully when you're heading for the cheesecutters in an mx5. As long as you want a flat-top.

Richard

[*caution*]

i always wondered what would happen if a car's bonnet was lower than the wires... now we know....

(http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=75615&d=1194426291)


imagine if they were in a convertible?

oooo.... but it stopped the car crossing into oncoming traffic right....<_<

so i guess it did its job right, and it was cheap too!!! :whistle:

[Zapf]

oooo.... but it stopped the car crossing into oncoming traffic right....<_<

so i guess it did its job right, and it was cheap too!!! :whistle:

yea for the government too... no injured person to heal.

[motorbyclist]

i dunno, if that barrier was deployed on a centre line like LTNZ likes to do, it'd still be in the path of oncoming vehicles...

[fliplid]

Getting around on the roads surrounding Auckland, I've been noticing that quite a few lengths of the metal barriers have been fitted with the coach bolts, but with the nut side towards the traffic- meaning that there is a considerable length of excess thread protruding... Is this actually a recognised form of construction- or has some crew got a bit sloppy? Gives the impression that it would act like a saw if you slide down it! I'll try get some piccies and post them up.

[Conquiztador]

Getting around on the roads surrounding Auckland, I've been noticing that quite a few lengths of the metal barriers have been fitted with the coach bolts, but with the nut side towards the traffic- meaning that there is a considerable length of excess thread protruding... Is this actually a recognised form of construction- or has some crew got a bit sloppy? Gives the impression that it would act like a saw if you slide down it! I'll try get some piccies and post them up.

Outchhhh!!! I can feel the bolts cutting in to my leg!!! I cringe!

[motorbyclist]

they probably do it that way cause it's easier, and therefore cheaper

i mean, safety clearly was never a real consideration or the barriers wouldn't be here in the first place

[swbarnett]

Getting around on the roads surrounding Auckland, I've been noticing that quite a few lengths of the metal barriers have been fitted with the coach bolts, but with the nut side towards the traffic- meaning that there is a considerable length of excess thread protruding... Is this actually a recognised form of construction- or has some crew got a bit sloppy? Gives the impression that it would act like a saw if you slide down it! I'll try get some piccies and post them up.
I saw them putting up new armco barriers leading to the Tristram Ave. overbridge today. The bolts were definately head side to the road. Someone's getting very sloppy. Write in to transit with location and pictures. This cannot be tolerated!

[Sanx]

Looks like they're going to be going down the new bit of SH20 they're building too. On the left-hand side of the lane. Cables not up, but the posts look awful familar.

[Max Preload]

Getting around on the roads surrounding Auckland, I've been noticing that quite a few lengths of the metal barriers have been fitted with the coach bolts, but with the nut side towards the traffic

What roads? That's outrageous - they'd do some serious damage just walking past & catching your leg on them, much less getting shunted onto them on a bike by an errant cage pilot who never checked his blind spot before converging on your lane!

[El Dopa]

Getting around on the roads surrounding Auckland, I've been noticing that quite a few lengths of the metal barriers have been fitted with the coach bolts, but with the nut side towards the traffic- meaning that there is a considerable length of excess thread protruding... Is this actually a recognised form of construction- or has some crew got a bit sloppy? Gives the impression that it would act like a saw if you slide down it! I'll try get some piccies and post them up.

The one formal study that I have read about different crash barriers (Monash Uni. Go on their website and search for 'brifen') noted that one of the biggest problems with wire rope barriers was when they were not installed up to the relevant standard.

It's not a particularly leftfield jump of logic from that starting point to assume that there may be installation problems with all types of barrier, especially given this story (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.cfm?c_id=184&objectid=10476631)in the paper yesterday.

If no-one bothers to point out to the road crew that the boltheads need to be flush on the road side of the barrier, then its exactly the sort of idiot mistake that can easily get made.

I also have a vague recollection that some of the armco at Pukekohe might have been installed like this. There was a thread about it a couple of years ago. If it's being installed like that on a track, the chances ot getting installed correctly on the road are effectively zero.

[fliplid]

So, it's still a case of "cheap is good"?! If not, just bodge it to keep it easier!

[WelshWizard]

If you want to read the Micky mouse report done by Transit NZ in Nov 2006 go here and view as a PDF
http://www.transportation.org/sites/aashtotig/docs/New%20Zealand%20Motorcycle%20Report%20-%20November%202006.pdf
Seems they have taken certain data out of the report to make the wire barriers fit their case for them, and they have always known they killed motorcyclists

[Hitcher]

Out of curiosity, I measured the lengths of the new cheesecutter on Centennial Highway to see how long the cables spanned between anchor points. Both new stretches are about 1.5km long, and a completely different spec to the first length on that stretch of road. The first length comprises 4 parallel strands with posts at a smaller gap than upper-pair, pair criss-crossed style on the newer stuff. Anybody who thinks that a significant impact on this stuff is going to stop vehicles moving into the opposite lanes is delusional.

[Deano]

Out of curiosity, I measured the lengths of the new cheesecutter on Centennial Highway to see how long the cables spanned between anchor points. Both new stretches are about 1.5km long, and a completely different spec to the first length on that stretch of road. The first length comprises 4 parallel strands with posts at a smaller gap than upper-pair, pair criss-crossed style on the newer stuff. Anybody who thinks that a significant impact on this stuff is going to stop vehicles moving into the opposite lanes is delusional.

Give the gubbmint an inch..........these things will be everywhere very shortly.

What was actually so wrong with the armco into Wgtn from the Hutt that it is being replaced with the garrot.(sp)

[Max Preload]

Out of curiosity, I measured the lengths of the new cheesecutter on Centennial Highway to see how long the cables spanned between anchor points. Both new stretches are about 1.5km long, and a completely different spec to the first length on that stretch of road. The first length comprises 4 parallel strands with posts at a smaller gap than upper-pair, pair criss-crossed style on the newer stuff. Anybody who thinks that a significant impact on this stuff is going to stop vehicles moving into the opposite lanes is delusional.

So it's 1.5km between anchor blocks? I find that difficult to believe. Unless I don't.

[Hitcher]

So it's 1.5km between anchor blocks? I find that difficult to believe. Unless I don't.

You're welcome to measure those distances yourself. The stretch up the Haywards Hill is closer to 2km between anchor blocks.

[Max Preload]

You're welcome to measure those distances yourself. The stretch up the Haywards Hill is closer to 2km between anchor blocks.

I believe you. Sure is pretty pointless - what %age elongation is that to put a vehicle completely on the wrong side of the road then? I calculate 0.00013% (200mm stretch over 1500m) but that's assuming the entire length of cable is dislodged from the posts.

How many actually come away on collision?

Regardless, it's going to do nothing for trucks...

[Hitcher]

I believe you. Sure is pretty pointless - what %age elongation is that to put a vehicle completely on the wrong side of the road then? I calculate 0.00013% (200mm stretch over 1500m) but that's assuming the entire length of cable is dislodged from the posts.

The Centennial Highway stretch of cheesecutter runs around several corners -- that road is quite windy -- so even relatively short disruption (say over 100m) would create more than enough slack to allow an impacting vehicle to travel completely across the opposite lane.

The grim reality is that cheesecutter is intended to be nothing more than a "psychological" barrier. It's cheap, easy to erect, but otherwise useless/lethal. Traffic planners probably believe that by sanctioning its use they can't then be attacked for not doing anything on "problem" stretches of road.

[Max Preload]

The Centennial Highway stretch of cheesecutter runs around several corners -- that road is quite windy -- so even relatively short disruption (say over 100m) would create more than enough slack to allow an impacting vehicle to travel completely across the opposite lane.

The grim reality is that cheesecutter is intended to be nothing more than a "psychological" barrier. It's cheap, easy to erect, but otherwise useless/lethal. Traffic planners probably believe that by sanctioning its use they can't then be attacked for not doing anything on "problem" stretches of road.

I get the impression it isn't so much a 'safety barrier' (since it clearly doesn't add any real safety where and in the style they've used it) but simply as a more effective double yellow line measure - no overtaking possible. So once again we're catering for the lowest common denominators, who in reality shouldn't even be driving in the first place.

[rwh]

I get the impression it isn't so much a 'safety barrier' (since it clearly doesn't add any real safety where and in the style they've used it) but simply as a more effective double yellow line measure - no overtaking possible.

No overtaking or corner cutting. I do see merit in that. Just not the design.

Richard

[Max Preload]

No overtaking or corner cutting. I do see merit in that. Just not the design.

Exactly. Just as easily achieved with a narrow median...

[Ocean1]

The grim reality is that cheesecutter is intended to be nothing more than a "psychological" barrier. It's cheap, easy to erect, but otherwise useless/lethal. Traffic planners probably believe that by sanctioning its use they can't then be attacked for not doing anything on "problem" stretches of road.

So, a design intent effectively purpose built for the market then, given that the cheques are written by politicians rather than engineers.

Note that pet engineers are still required in this brave new infrastructure development paradigm, ya gota have someone to blame…


Exactly when did I get quite so cynical? :scratch:

[Marmoot]

Just noticed this stated in LTSA road safety strategy to 2010

http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/strategy-2010/strategy-implementation.html


developing innovative, low–cost safety engineering solutions on the state highway network by trialling installation of median cable barriers to separate traffic flow and clearance of roadside hazards

Tell us again that it is NOT about cost cutting?

[Shadows]

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">installation of median cable barriers to separate traffic flow and clearance of roadside hazards </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


That would have to rate as one of the more contradictory sentences I have read.

[Colapop]

So... present clearly stated and proven statistics that WRB's are NOT the most cost effective solution... For every statement that is made or can be found we must present evidence (not anecdote) that refutes their statements...

[pete376403]

The new barrier just north of Melling bridge (Lower Hutt) is a real shitty piece of work, even by transit standards. The ground the posts are set into is about 300 mm LOWER than the road surface. Any vehicle, especially a high C-O-G SUV on tall suspension and big flexy sidewall tyres, if the outer wheels fell down into that depression and snagged on the wires, would probably flip right over the barrier.
Possibly someone in Transit thinks that too, as I've noticed that for the past few days a line of cones has been placed either side of the barrier -makes it much safer

[Ocean1]

The new barrier just north of Melling bridge (Lower Hutt) is a real shitty piece of work, even by transit standards. The ground the posts are set into is about 300 mm LOWER than the road surface. Any vehicle, especially a high C-O-G SUV on tall suspension and big flexy sidewall tyres, if the outer wheels fell down into that depression and snagged on the wires, would probably flip right over the barrier.
Possibly someone in Transit thinks that too, as I've noticed that for the past few days a line of cones has been placed either side of the barrier -makes it much safer

Yes, interesting variation on the theme. Yet more of the stuff going in a mere couple of feet from the traffic flow. I live just north of that, and I'm watching developments with a close, (if slightly jaundiced) eye.

[Hitcher]

I see that somebody/thing has clipped the lefthand WRB on SH2 about opposite the Horokiwi turnoff. What's left is a great example of how useless this stuff is at stopping anything.

[Ocean1]

I see that somebody/thing has clipped the lefthand WRB on SH2 about opposite the Horokiwi turnoff. What's left is a great example of how useless this stuff is at stopping anything.

Clipped as in impacted with? Or as in cut with malace of forethought?

Some of that new stuff had yet to be tensioned as of a week or so ago...

[MSTRS]

Quick....someone get a photo or two of that.

[Hitcher]

Clipped as in impacted with? Or as in cut with malace of forethought?

As in impacted with. Missing posts, carnage! This reinforces my view about the weakness of WRB being just before the convex apex.

[Drum]

The posts are supposed to be destroyed in an impact. That's why they are fitted inside a sleeve, so they can be easily replaced.

[Hitcher]

The posts are supposed to be destroyed in an impact. That's why they are fitted inside a sleeve, so they can be easily replaced.

Which further reinforces my thesis that the way these things are installed, they are incapable of stopping a rogue vehicle crossing the median into the path of oncoming traffic.

[Forest]

I've been doing quite a bit of driving around Victoria recently.

FWIW there's quite a lot of cheese-cutters over here. Particularly down the centre of freeways and dual carriage-ways.

I know that the NZ government is quite keen on emulating many of the Victorian road safety programs and initiatives. Could the cheese-cutters be a consequence of this?

[sunhuntin]

thats a good possibility...

i read or heard somewhere around xmas that a large number of last years accidents was caused by vehicles crossing the center line... whats the bet the whole country ends up being cheese cutted down the middle?

there is actually one corner i take twice daily where a large number of on-coming traffic cross the center line without need or reason. [im leaning left, so whatever hander that is... lol]
as a result of so many vehicles with 4 wheels coming onto my side, i cock it up just about every time... tend to flinch and move furthurt left, which stuffs the corner royally. that is one corner id love to see a short 'wall' erected on.

[swbarnett]

I've been doing quite a bit of driving around Victoria recently.

FWIW there's quite a lot of cheese-cutters over here. Particularly down the centre of freeways and dual carriage-ways.

I know that the NZ government is quite keen on emulating many of the Victorian road safety programs and initiatives. Could the cheese-cutters be a consequence of this?
This would make sense. We all know that NZ politicians can't think for themselves. Every initiative they try has to have failed elsewhere first.

[WelshWizard]

As so many countries are banning WRB they are a nock down price , after all all those manufacturers have to get rid of surplus stock, So sell it cheep, and the politician forget about people like Daniel who was cut in half by them, after all to them life is cheep its not one of them

[Brett]

I've been doing quite a bit of driving around Victoria recently.

FWIW there's quite a lot of cheese-cutters over here. Particularly down the centre of freeways and dual carriage-ways.

I know that the NZ government is quite keen on emulating many of the Victorian road safety programs and initiatives. Could the cheese-cutters be a consequence of this?

Yep. Sad to say it, but they were going up fast in Joberg through December.

[WelshWizard]

Just came across this,

"UK - Around 250 motorcyclists have protested against a police chief's decision to show photographs of a decapitated biker without his family's permission. The images of Mark Gibney, 40, were shown by North Wales Police chief constable Richard Brunstrom at a closed road safety briefing for journalists.

The force has apologised to the family and the Independent Police Complaints Commission is investigating the case.

Mr Gibney's family, from Merseyside, organised the Llandudno demonstration.

North Wales Police chief inspector Gary Ashton said: "The event appears to have passed off safely.

"We're fully aware of the nature of the protest. An IPCC investigation is still ongoing so we have no further comment to make at this time."

Motorcyclists gathered on the promenade on Saturday morning, for what they say would be a peaceful protest.

Some riders came from as far afield as Bournemouth and Fife in Scotland.

Mr Gibney's 42-year-old brother Paul, who is among those organising the event, is also a biker.

Last month, Mr Gibney's family met with the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) which is reviewing the case following a voluntary referral from the North Wales Police Authority.

At the time, the family's solicitor Paul Beck said the meeting had gone well and had been a chance for the relatives to express their feelings about the case.

Mr Gibney's father William, 64, said: "The family's heartbroken...I took it at the time but it took a long time to get over it and then this has made it, it's like 50 times worse than the original when it happened."

He said the ride was important as it was the family's only way of protesting.

"I think it will help a little bit of the hurt," he added.

Mr Gibney died in 2003 when his bike crashed on a bend on the B5105 between Cerrigydrudion and Ruthin in Denbighshire.

An image of his severed head lying on a grass verge was shown to journalists and council officials during a private road safety presentation by Mr Brunstrom on 26 April.

His headless torso was also shown as well as photographs of the bodies of two young men killed in a separate crash.

Afterwards, Mr Brunstrom claimed the pictures had been shown in confidence and accused some sections of the media of "distorting" the meeting. He also defended his actions saying he had shown the images to "give the context" of his anti-speeding campaign.

The force apologised to the family "for the distress caused by the publicity" but this was rejected by the relatives who announced they were taking legal advice.

They want the chief constable to quit or be sacked.

The decision to show the photographs has also attracted criticism from several politicians including Welsh Secretary Peter Hain who described it as: "completely unacceptable".

But writing in his weblog, Mr Brunstrom said those attending the anti-speeding briefing had seen images which would not be "released into the public domain."
Source vfr-race.com.

more info
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7114197.stm
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/mcn/2007/November/november5-11/nov0907gibneyfamilyrespondstorichardbrunstromverdi ct/?&R=EPI-96933

[Pixie]

thats a good possibility...

i read or heard somewhere around xmas that a large number of last years accidents was caused by vehicles crossing the center line... whats the bet the whole country ends up being cheese cutted down the middle?

there is actually one corner i take twice daily where a large number of on-coming traffic cross the center line without need or reason. [im leaning left, so whatever hander that is... lol]
as a result of so many vehicles with 4 wheels coming onto my side, i cock it up just about every time... tend to flinch and move furthurt left, which stuffs the corner royally. that is one corner id love to see a short 'wall' erected on.

Why don't the police enforce the keep left rule?
It's worth 20 demerit points - theyd fill their quotas like shooting fish in a barrel.

Oh, sorry I forgot.
It's not exceeding the speed limit ,so it's not dangerous.

[Pixie]

Just came across this,

"UK - Around 250 motorcyclists have protested against a police chief's decision to show photographs of a decapitated biker without his family's permission. The images of Mark Gibney, 40, were shown by North Wales Police chief constable Richard Brunstrom at a closed road safety briefing for journalists.




The English bike press has the guts our feeble excuse for a press lacks.
From "Bike" magazine:

[Ixion]

In fairness their plod idiots are even bigger idiots than ours.

That particular idiot is certifially doo-lally.

[hayd3n]

I've seen these clips before, of them testing. For every other vehicle, I can see why they're so effective (even without this footage) and they're cheap, so it's going to be a hard battle since everything relates to 'majority rules' and sadly enough, we don't have such big numbers, altho ours should shout volumes over everything else.

Don't watch the clips if things are still raw, but this will show you what LTSA see, and why they see it. They're cheap, effective, and small, and do the job well. At the cost of.. well, we all know
would you like to see that done in a motorcycle, bus or a truck ???
i dont think it would show the same results

[yungatart]

You only have to see how the bits fly off those cars to imagine what happens to human flesh when it impacts these things.

[spookytooth]

I had not seem these things before this week so wondered what the fuss was about.Now having seen them for myself all i can say is fuck that for a joke.They gave me the shivers just riding along side them

[WelshWizard]

would you like to see that done in a motorcycle, bus or a truck ???
i dont think it would show the same results

You can see how the trick comes off as the link also shows them after you have played the link, the thing about the truck is the depth of penetration Southern Motorway No chance its a head on with oncoming

[hayd3n]

gee i post a messege and get a infraction :< name not mentioned

[motorbyclist]

You can see how the trick comes off as the link also shows them after you have played the link, the thing about the truck is the depth of penetration Southern Motorway No chance its a head on with oncoming

wait, i think i misread that

but you are aware that, just a few weeks after a rider was cut in half on the southern motorway, a truck crashed through the same stretch of barrier:

crossed the median, hit two oncoming cars and ended up in a tree on the other side.

total failure.

then there's this pleasant photo that get's most car drivers to change their opinion

<img src="http://www.cheesecutter.co.nz/images/CheeseCutterFalcon.jpg">


in the areas further down SH1 the WRB are ON the double yellow line; they aren't preventing a head on in a accident, they're preventing dumbasses from passing when there's oncoming traffic and causing the accident, and causing endless frustration for those stuck behind a truck doing 80kph at 1am on a friday night

[WelshWizard]

wait, i think i misread that

but you are aware that, just a few weeks after a rider was cut in half on the southern motorway, a truck crashed through the same stretch of barrier:

crossed the median, hit two oncoming cars and ended up in a tree on the other side.

total failure.

then there's this pleasant photo that get's most car drivers to change their opinion




in the areas further down SH1 the WRB are ON the double yellow line; they aren't preventing a head on in a accident, they're preventing dumbasses from passing when there's oncoming traffic and causing the accident, and causing endless frustration for those stuck behind a truck doing 80kph at 1am on a friday night

I am fully aware and it was on the Saterday at 3.30am Dan was killed by these things, and it was Sunday that the Truck went through the WRB's less than 2 K's from where my son died.

Also ask yourself why the Falcon is so low a res, if you import into a img program and enlarge you will see.

[WelshWizard]

http://www.asiaone.com/News/AsiaOne%2BNews/Singapore/Story/A1Story20080520-66075.htmlcheck the above link and then look to find what the diver was.

Also follow some of the links on the page bellow
http://www.safermotorways.co.uk/featurearchive.htm


http://www.police.qld.gov.au/News+and+Alerts/Media+Releases/2006/07/Overnight+round+up+July+25.htm

(above from the Queensland Police release -went over the top of the WRB in Aus)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominionpost/4424105a23918.html

http://mraa.org.au/forum/modules/issues/index.php?pagenum=7

The effect on a bike and two on it when its a steel barrier with posts you can hit below

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3b6_1202085895

http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_12898.shtml

And another reason Britian has changed their minds over WRB's and are now looking at Concrete
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/6913200.stm


Raphael Grzebieta: (Raphael G-shz-bee-Eta)of Victoria’s Monash University


I see it as the next frontier where we can really get this road toll right down. I’m talking about human error tolerant systems. That’s what we need to build.

Karina Kelly, Reporter:
What does that mean?

Raphael Grzebieta:
Well it means people make mistakes. People can fall asleep. Yes someone might be drunk, someone might be speeding. Sure they should wear the consequences of that. However, should that person die as a result of an incorrectly designed system?

Claes Tingvall:
Having a road transport system that kills and injures so many people is not the way to live in a civilized society.

And finally read the whole page


Bengineer says "Barrier failure may be 1st in state
Cars rarely go under cables,"
( Seem we have the same mentality as LTNZ in the States,the Road engineer should read the facts on the artical below, not that uncommon)
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=690243

[Mom]

Also ask yourself why the Falcon is so low a res, if you import into a img program and enlarge you will see.

Have you got the ability to do that? If you do would it be possible for you to save a copy of it and email it to me? I have useless software on here, and that is one image I would really love to use in, I already have it added to flyers, but as you say the resolution is crap.

[MSTRS]

Have you got the ability to do that? If you do would it be possible for you to save a copy of it and email it to me? I have useless software on here, and that is one image I would really love to use in, I already have it added to flyers, but as you say the resolution is crap.

Handy to have in higher res...but are you sure you want to see the contents of the car? Some things are better left to the imagination. Then again, I did post the pic of the sliced up girl a while back...enough to turn the strongest stomach.

[Mom]

Handy to have in higher res...but are you sure you want to see the contents of the car? Some things are better left to the imagination. Then again, I did post the pic of the sliced up girl a while back...enough to turn the strongest stomach.

I agree it may be a bit strong, perhaps pixulate the contents of the vehicle a little to disguise the horror, but leave enough there to make it clear. I want the pic poster sized, bet a few more people would sit up and take notice if they could see what it does to cars.

[MSTRS]

I agree it may be a bit strong, perhaps pixulate the contents of the vehicle a little to disguise the horror, but leave enough there to make it clear. I want the pic poster sized, bet a few more people would sit up and take notice if they could see what it does to cars.

They do when they see that pic...poster size would be good.

[Mom]

They do when they see that pic...poster size would be good.

Yepper, so the next question is who on here has the ability to work the magic. I know a couple of printers that may be able to do some "cheapish" printing :blip:

[WelshWizard]

Have you got the ability to do that? If you do would it be possible for you to save a copy of it and email it to me? I have useless software on here, and that is one image I would really love to use in, I already have it added to flyers, but as you say the resolution is crap.


All I did was save it to the desk top and used Kodak imige to open it then resized it as large as I could before it became imposible to see what was what, white seat becomes some what RED when enlarged a small amount.

What would be good if we could get the original photo file before it was edited down to such a low Res

[motorbyclist]

I am fully aware and it was on the Saterday at 3.30am Dan was killed by these things, and it was Sunday that the Truck went through the WRB's less than 2 K's from where my son died.

Also ask yourself why the Falcon is so low a res, if you import into a img program and enlarge you will see.

yeah as i said i must've misread your post (it seemed to read the opposite to your intention)

and yeah, i did notice that aspect of the pic