Wire (cheese cutter) barriers

[SpankMe]

They need to go.

As usual it takes a tragedy before action is taken, so this thread is for compiling information about why they should be removed, so lets stick to the facts.


Whats wrong with them
Should they be removed or modified
What other countries have done
How to approach/convince Transit NZ

No idle comments or guesses please. We just need info.

[Brett]

I was already onto this. I am contacting Transit on Tuesday to get some information including who the person to contact with these concerns is. We need to show a united front on this so that tey get the idea that as a biking community we are not going to put up with this. We also need to be armed with possible remedies.

[surfchick]

What's wrong with them:
They put riders at extra risk (compared to continuous barriers which the rider would slide along) from some fairly common bike failures causing the riders to fall: engine siezure/locking the rear wheel or front tire blowout. I've had two front tires go and would NEVER EVER want this to happen near this style of barrier. It is just too likely to catch a limb in the gaps- I truely believe these were designed with ONLY car/truck traffic in mind and as such constitute an unacceptable risk to motorcyclists.

[Mr. Peanut]

I deleted my above comment, as I don't think it contributes greatly to this thread.
As has been said before, a cheap solution would be a plastic cover of some sort.

[Brett]

As has been said before, a cheap solution would be a plastic cover of some sort.

Yep, I beleive I suggsted that last time this was an issue of debate...if not, well I was thinking it! a thick polythen sheet would be easily replaced, cheap and also scrub off more energy than soid concrete. A Sleave could be made to simpliy slide of the existing armco.

[Mr. Peanut]

A protest ride, or a demonstration of some sort could bring a bit more attention to the matter.

[Disco Dan]

I read somewhere that 80% of motorcyclists that hit them at 70kmph die.

...will try and find source!

EDIT: (was close)


It's all KB's fault of course. I came across the older cheescutter threads one day and had a bit of a read. Then as I had to pass the roadworks installing even more twice a day, I wondered if ACC knew about the amputation stats around them. I dropped them an email and BCC'd it (hehe) to the DomPost.

Faced with the overseas evidence, DomPost have taken it up as a cause and today's article is I understand just a tickler.

The stuff that got me motivated was
- Norway has banned them altogether
- Belgium is ripping a section out every year until they're all gone
- Victoria is looking at banning them
- The Netherlands has banned them
- In France they alll have to be filled in with a plastic tube called "Moto-tub"
- 85% of motorcyclists hitting these bariers at over 70kmh loose a limb

There's lots more but that's the stuff I passed to ACC and DomPost and it seems they've started doing their own research too ... maybe it'll do some good.

[*caution*]

As suggested. I think some action that would make the news is probably needed, say a 1000+ strong rally/protest ride, ending outside parliment, and then sit there for a while blocking traffic and reving engines in a deafening roar, would certainly get some attention....

[Matt_TG]

Deja Vue...

Refer This Thread - We discussed this in September (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=56622)

I wonder how Allan Kirk feels now?

[bugjuice]

we've all been saying it was only a matter of time, if it hadn't happened already. Wasn't it one of the Euro countries that had them (can't remember if it was France or Sweden??), they then covered the ones that HAD to be there, and removed the ones that got alternatives, like concrete barriers

[cowpoos]

They need to go.

As usual it takes a tragedy before action is taken, so this thread is for compiling information about why they should be removed, so lets stick to the facts.


Whats wrong with them
Should they be removed or modified
What other countries have done
How to approach/convince Transit NZ

No idle comments or guesses please. We just need info.
media is a great way to get people who usually appear def dumb and ignorant to listen... http://www.tv3.co.nz/TVShows/NewsandCurrentAffairs/CampbellLive/ContactUs/tabid/241/Default.aspx

if alot of people send a msg through...we might get a response...minorities like us Motorcyclists need to be heard too :)

[rainman]

A protest ride, or a demonstration of some sort could bring a bit more attention to the matter.

I'd be in, but I'd guess publicity around the event would need to be carefully managed. Maybe this is an issue BRONZ might want to take up?

Some random googling turns up the following bits:
A n old story from Aussie (http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Wire-barrier-studies-to-address-biker-fears/2004/12/23/1103391894916.html) that suggests some ways to fix them (Moto Tub, Rubrail?)
Another Au story (PDF) (http://www.network.mag-uk.org/barriers/WRB-reportV9.pdf). Haven't read it as I'm being chased to take the family out but it looks like it may have some useful stats in.

I'll look for more when I get back in.

[cowpoos]

also is national transport spokesman maurice williamson...I'm sure with some encouragement and some rather well written emails he may voice and opinion for us in parlement?? email him here maurice.williamson@national.org.nz

[JMemonic]

Personally disliked these things from the first time I saw one.

Depending on the protest action and finances I will be involved.

Christchurch riders will have noticed one of these things on the tunnel road heading towards Lyttelton, anyone know why transit spent the money? I cant find anyone who knows of an accident there that would justify this hazard, there used to be a gentle gradient on the grass allowing plenty of time to stop, and it provided a safe area should there be a breakdown, now it means cars and trucks have to stop in the lane and should you be riding up there at 2300, on pitch dark night, and the light fuse blows you have to try jamming yourself up against the bloody thing as cages wiz by at 100+ kph, none to pleasant.

[bugjuice]

I've seen these clips before, of them testing. For every other vehicle, I can see why they're so effective (even without this footage) and they're cheap, so it's going to be a hard battle since everything relates to 'majority rules' and sadly enough, we don't have such big numbers, altho ours should shout volumes over everything else.

Don't watch the clips if things are still raw, but this will show you what LTSA see, and why they see it. They're cheap, effective, and small, and do the job well. At the cost of.. well, we all know

woZeuFKEn-Q

10L8421s18Q

[raster]

I have been advocating against them for quite some time now, I have been dreading this type of trajedy for some since they were put in.

The reply I got at the time is they are saving more lives than they are taking!!!!!!!
At that time I was having trouble refuting it with evidence close to home enough to make any impact.
Considering each time they are damaged a possible head-on is prevented!

Sweden was the first to bann them, I will dredge up the research I had got together. Some were installing protection strips.

Found this file over 12 months ago!

[_Gina_]

I would support some kind of organised protest ride, come on guys n gals, surely if other "minority" groups can get media attention etc we can too.

Cheese cutters are a risk that we as motorcyclists should not have to live with.

[Deano]

A crucial bit of information we need is the long term costs associated with maintenance and repair of the wire rope barriers. Concrete is pretty durable, yet I've seen quite a few damaged wire barriers. I heard anecdotally from overseas studies that long term, concrete barriers are cheaper.

[tri boy]

media is a great way to get people who usually appear def dumb and ignorant to listen... http://www.tv3.co.nz/TVShows/NewsandCurrentAffairs/CampbellLive/ContactUs/tabid/241/Default.aspx

if alot of people send a msg through...we might get a response...minorities like us Motorcyclists need to be heard too :)

Done. Hope it helps.

[Draco]

The articles etc you are all finding is just the sort of stuff we need to arm ouselves with if we are to fight. Well done guys, keep them coming. I have started a new thread regarding TV3 news coverage tonight, and the possible media coverage of a protest ride, so please go check it out.

[MotoGirl]

media is a great way to get people who usually appear def dumb and ignorant to listen... http://www.tv3.co.nz/TVShows/NewsandCurrentAffairs/CampbellLive/ContactUs/tabid/241/Default.aspx

if alot of people send a msg through...we might get a response...minorities like us Motorcyclists need to be heard too :)

Another couple of messages sent - I'll do one for every member in the family to get numbers up!

[Gremlin]

Why do they work? Because they grab the car, and don't generally act as an object for the vehicle to bounce off, like concrete does. They slow the vehicle down, from all the posts ripping into the side of the vehicle.

None of this helps bikers. Regardless of speed, they will do far more damage to a human body than relatively smooth concrete would.

Transit has apparently saved money by installing a cheaper option. Yeh... wonder what value they put on lives.

[rainman]

Another few:

Some European research (http://www.fema.ridersrights.org/crashbarrier/index.html), including links to a bunch of studies, good stats, and pictures of ways to fix the problems.

A maybe inconclusive masters thesis (http://epubl.ltu.se/1402-1617/2005/233/index-en.html) from Sweden. "More research to be carried out".

An Aussie proposal (PDF) (http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/reports/atsb201.pdf) to study the topic, some stats and options.

And this one (http://stuff.co.nz/hawkesbay/4198973a23918.html) just leaves me speechless with rage! "Worth the risks" - WTF? Only motorcyclists, not important people, I suppose! :argh:

[Zapf]

Found this file over 12 months ago!

Quoting Page 23

4. Summary
The literature review indicated that:
• The probability of a motorcyclist being killed as a result of impacting a crash
barrier is more than double that for motorcycle crashes generally;
• The chances of injury upon hitting a fixed object appear to be related to the impact
area and the rigidity of the object. Hence small rigid objects such as posts are most
likely to cause injury;
• The severity of injuries experienced by motorcyclists depends on the portion of
the body struck in the crash;
• Most motorcycle collisions with crash barriers occur at shallow angles with the
rider typically sliding into the barrier at a bend (Quincey et al, 1988) and (FORS,
1992);
• For those riders remaining upright when impacting the crash barriers, most
injuries occur when after shallow impact the rider slides and tumbles into the tops
of the supporting posts (Ouellet, 1982); and,

is what happened, in this case it is onto the wires.

[xgnr]

media is a great way to get people who usually appear def dumb and ignorant to listen... http://www.tv3.co.nz/TVShows/NewsandCurrentAffairs/CampbellLive/ContactUs/tabid/241/Default.aspx

if alot of people send a msg through...we might get a response...minorities like us Motorcyclists need to be heard too :)

Sent an email... c'mon folks lets get this thing rolling.

On a Ulysses run today South of Dorkland and as I rode past I thought about what would happen if you hit one of these things.

The people that make the decisions have to realise that we all vote and pay a shit load of taxes/rates. We are not a voiceless minority.

Cheers

Stu

[Zapf]

And URL="http://stuff.co.nz/hawkesbay/4198973a23918.html"]this one[/URL] just leaves me speechless with rage! "Worth the risks" - WTF? Only motorcyclists, not important people, I suppose! :argh:

While the barriers are effective. They need to cover it so that if a body comes into contact with it, it can slide along instead of being cut up like a de shelled hard boil egg.

[sunhuntin]

Personally disliked these things from the first time I saw one.

Depending on the protest action and finances I will be involved.

Christchurch riders will have noticed one of these things on the tunnel road heading towards Lyttelton, anyone know why transit spent the money? I cant find anyone who knows of an accident there that would justify this hazard, there used to be a gentle gradient on the grass allowing plenty of time to stop, and it provided a safe area should there be a breakdown, now it means cars and trucks have to stop in the lane and should you be riding up there at 2300, on pitch dark night, and the light fuse blows you have to try jamming yourself up against the bloody thing as cages wiz by at 100+ kph, none to pleasant.

a good point... the road into welly is the same. if a truck has a tyre blowout, there is no room for traffic to go around it, with there being a cheese cutter down the middle. same goes if a car breaks down, no room to flow around. bikes... theres a bit of room on the southbound [cliff side] but not much on the north bound.

EDIT id be up for a protest of theres one held at wellington.

[madmal64]

also is national transport spokesman maurice williamson...I'm sure with some encouragement and some rather well written emails he may voice and opinion for us in parlement?? email him here maurice.williamson@national.org.nz

Rick Barker I think is worth a hit as well. He is a biker as well as being in the current parliment and a minister in cabnet
http://labour.org.nz/labour_team/mps/mps/rick_barker/bio.html for his contact details
or email rbarker@ministers.govt.nz

[chanceyy]

Sent an email... c'mon folks lets get this thing rolling.

On a Ulysses run today South of Dorkland and as I rode past I thought about what would happen if you hit one of these things.

The people that make the decisions have to realise that we all vote and pay a shit load of taxes/rates. We are not a voiceless minority.

Cheers

Stu

Done...........

[Dave-]

I'm sorry for the death of your friend, but I oppose your argument.

clearly I am out numbered.

so I'm not going to post my reasons, and like a proper minority, will just be quiet.

best of luck with your campaign.

[Steam]

I'm sorry for the death of your friend, but I oppose your argument.
clearly I am out numbered.
so I'm not going to post my reasons, and like a proper minority, will just be quiet.
best of luck with your campaign.

What a fucking cop-out. I challenge you to stand up and justify yourself.

[skidMark]

What a fucking cop-out. I challenge you to stand up and justify yourself.


echoed.....were waiting :)

[Steam]

On second thoughts, maybe not in this thread, as this thread is for compiling information about why they should be removed.

[sunhuntin]

if you oppose, but dont want to say why, then why the fuck say anything in the first place? or do you like the idea of your body being ripped up by wires and posts?

i second the challenge placed by steam.

[MSTRS]

All I can add to this thread is the fact that it takes little mental effort to visualise the effect on anything that is not 'slab-sided' hitting a wire rope.

[NUTBAR]

oh, was looking at home page,:doh:

[YellowDog]

My thought go out to the respective friends and family for this unnecessary loss of life. Yes, these dangerously constructed barriers do have to go however the reason there is no urgency to address this avoidable danger is very clear. In most other countries such an accident would result in a costly prosecution for the Roads Agency or governing authority. In NZ, they just say 'Pass it to ACC' and there is no accountability. The NZ Health and Safety standards are not adequate and hence, there is no enforceable law. We should all right to our PMs to put pressure for an urgent change.

[betti]

motorcycle action group in the Uk have been actively campaigning against these lethal objects for a good number of years.. link follows

http://www.network.mag-uk.org/crashbarriers2005/MAGcrashbarrier2005.pdf

[YellowDog]

That is excellent. Thank you.

[ManDownUnder]

I'm sorry for the death of your friend, but I oppose your argument.

clearly I am out numbered.

so I'm not going to post my reasons, and like a proper minority, will just be quiet.

best of luck with your campaign.


What a fucking cop-out. I challenge you to stand up and justify yourself.

hang about - the guy said he has reasons to not agree but steps aside to allow you to continue on your way to reach a goal...

Rather than blast him - I respect the position taken.

That being said, Dave - the invite's there to PM me with those reasons. I'm open to lines of argument I haven't thought of.


if you oppose, but dont want to say why, then why the fuck say anything in the first place? or do you like the idea of your body being ripped up by wires and posts?

i second the challenge placed by steam.

This is a heated topic for sure - but if we can avoid escalating this to violence in our own ranks we have a better chance of putting forward and well rounded, informed opinion and challenge to Transit and those in power.

Hell... this is a chance to learn people... or did I miss something?

[borg]

What a fucking cop-out. I challenge you to stand up and justify yourself.

I reckon! I also deduce from his comment, that he's saying since we're in the minority, therefore should stay quiet!

I'd suggest someone could put a petition up? It could be hosted at www.petitiononline.com

[tri boy]

It would be great to see Transit remove and replace these barriers, but sadly I don't think they will any time soon. However, I see no reason why a preformed plastic(recycled?) "Blanket" couldn't be trialled that fits over the existing fence.
I'm sure a #8 wire type solution could be knocked out between Transit engineers, a plastic manufacturer, and a Motorcycle action group.
This would continue to supply the vehicle safety factor, and help reduce motorcycle fatalities by offering a Sliding Surface Area, rather than impact points.
Use recycled plastic at the appropriate thickness to allow for strength and some flexibility, and make them easy to fit and cheap to manufacture.
MHO

[borg]

[QUOTE=Hell... this is a chance to learn people... or did I miss something?[/QUOTE]

I think you missed something. His post contributed nothing to the thread other than a likelihood that it would inflame others. He could have given some justification why the barriers should stay. Though from a bikers perspective I can't think of any positive reasons why they should stay.

If this had happened to the son of a high profile person it's likely something would change, and quickly, and you wouldn't be getting Transit NZ coming out with such an insensitive response either probably. They'd probably say they'd commissioned some investigation and study into possible changes and improvements.

The argument for a lack of change due to cost vs. probability is just crap. There are numerous examples of change that have come about because of rare events where someone gets hurt or killed, and something is done about it, and pronto.

[Daffyd]

It would be great to see Transit remove and replace these barriers, but sadly I don't think they will any time soon. However, I see no reason why a preformed plastic(recycled?) "Blanket" couldn't be trialled that fits over the existing fence.
I'm sure a #8 wire type solution could be knocked out between Transit engineers, a plastic manufacturer, and a Motorcycle action group.
This would continue to supply the vehicle safety factor, and help reduce motorcycle fatalities by offering a Sliding Surface Area, rather than impact points.
Use recycled plastic at the appropriate thickness to allow for strength and some flexibility, and make them easy to fit and cheap to manufacture.
MHO

Could be a use for all the old baleage wrapping lying around in farmers' paddocks all over the country.

[Fub@r]

http://www.roadsonline.com.au/article.php?id=460&issue=29&section=1

Found this article. Guy that heads the Tasmanian motorbike council needs his head read!

http://www.network.mag-uk.org/barriers/WRB-reportV9.pdf

This article gives facts and figures comparing concrete to cheese cutters

[marty]

dave owned an rs250 for a whole day before he siezed it, so i doubt whether he's ever ridden alongside a cheesecutter barrier, so how valuable could his uninformed opinion be anyway?

[devnull]

A site worth looking at:

http://www.fema.ridersrights.org/crashbarrier/index.html

Cheese-cutter barriers only get a small mention.
Also contains some excellent safety info for other types of barrier as well (ever looked at the 4x4 posts that hold up an armcote barrier?) :sick:

And a link to a TNZ report covering these barriers:

http://www.transportation.org/sites/aashtotig/docs/New%20Zealand%20Motorcycle%20Report%20-%20November%202006.pdf

Lastly... a study from Sweden that makes for very interesting reading e.g. 70% of us feel less secure riding next to one of these barriers, and most of us will increase our distance from the barrier

http://epubl.ltu.se/1402-1617/2005/233/LTU-EX-05233-SE.pdf

[FJRider]

Sadly, untill SOMEONE comes up with a better (cheaper) solution than the wire cutter "barriers", they will probably remain in place. Armco isn't that great to hit either. A.C.C. may get involved, if injurys could be possibly reduced in some practical way.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No one is listening...TILL YOU FART

[Fub@r]

Sadly, untill SOMEONE comes up with a better (cheaper) solution than the wire cutter "barriers", they will probably remain in place. Armco isn't that great to hit either. A.C.C. may get involved, if injurys could be possibly reduced in some practical way.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No one is listening...TILL YOU FART

This is the misconception. One report I read said concrete barriers were $150/m with basically no maintenance and an 80yr + lifespan, also can cost even less if done in large runs. Plus it stops all traffic

Wire was $120/m and resulted in $80/m to repair after an impact, its only effective in stopping cars and bikes but not trucks


http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-01/esv/esv19/05-0095-O.pdf

This report directly reports on crash testing using bikes vs concrete and wire. The wire fails miserably. Results are on page 11

[Max Preload]

I was on this exact section of road barely 30 minutes before this death and when I woke up in the morning (ok... afternoon... :whistle:) and saw the first Comms Alert of 8:00am, I panicked. I had been accompanying a mate to the Drury offramp as he heads off to Waiuku and I then turned back to head home. It seemed quite feasible that he might have turned back for some reason after we'd parted company. Fortunately, at least for him, it wasn't.

I've often contemplated the damage these things would do if I was to strike one and it doesn't bare thinking about. Needless to say I'm on-board with any :shifty: action needed to stop further installation of these so-called "barriers". I've just emailed Allan Kirk & Campbell Live.

[Terminated]

--------------------------

[Ixion]

The BRONZ national AGM is next week. I shall be attending. We (BRONZ Auckland) had an item put on the agenda some time ago about this. I expect the discussion to be spirited. I shall be advocating strident and direct action.

The response in the past from Sir Humphrey's minions has been "Well, no motorcyclist has been injured by them so far. So what are you worried about".

I now have a counter to that argument

The most effective weapon with which to attack LTSA may be, not the existence of cheescutters themselves, but their installation.

A gentleman who knows whereof he speaks has posted (here) (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1112534&postcount=39) that the NZ installations do not follow the prescribed standard. There is supposed to be a 3 metre clear strip between road and barrier. Ours seldom have that. If they are not installed in accordance with the required standards and best practice, then arguably LTSA might be guilty of negligence, even criminal negligence.

Can anyone confirm that the site of the recent tragedy did not have that much room between barrier and road lane ?

For my part, if they were to provide a 20 foot grass strip before the barrier I would be much less worried. 20 foot is a good space to regain control or lay the bike down (one of the few instances where I would agree with that technique.)

[Fub@r]

Can anyone confirm that the site of the recent tragedy did not have that much room between barrier and road lane ?


There would be nearly 3m at the impact site, (watch the TV footage) however the rest of that stretch of motorway would be under 3m and covered in plants. So wouldn't be clear or have the minimum setback

[Mikkel]

Hmmm, it's not just the cheese cutter barriers that got my attention... even the concrete barriers are right bastards since they don't go all the way down to the surface. If you can get an arm or a leg between the bottom lip of the barrier and the road way you can get messed up badly by whatever supports the barrier is mounted on. A plastic/rubber curtain to prevent limb-support interaction would be an awesome thing.

-Sorry if this has already been pointed out.

[roadracingoldfart]

One of the strongest reasons for the rope barriers to be installed along the Paekakariki foreshore was that the emegency services can access the scene from either direction as the barrier is easily removable to allow such access.
The other reason was the amount of room between both outer edges of the road, not enough.
The road past the Police weigh station at Paramata has the same barrier installed and has been there for a number of years , but, the distance off the edge of the lane is greater there than can ever be along the foreshore.
I find it very strange that "all" the emergency services should select such a barrier system to be allowed without researching just half of what has been posted on this forum. To my reconning there is enough doubt in the system to have at least ONE of the services to say "hang on , is this the correct system" . Maybe they were just told the good stuff by a good spin doctor , or maybe they just play along to whatever Transit tells them is good and safe.
The problem with the foreshore road is that there is not enough room to allow a vehicle to avoid another in a possible head on scenario so a centre barrier is vital but i fail to see why they are popping up around the countrys roads as rampently as they are. I remember the urban motorway in Wgtn when it was built and the stupid barriers they had there were ripped out or filled with sand to make them safe , dont we learn from our mistakes anymore ???.
Concrete lane seperators are much safer , yes , i have hit one in a car and on a bike.
But driver training MUST be improved before the blood stops flowing on our roads.

[Fub@r]

If you were going to do a protest, block up Queen St and go in to the Transit offices there with evidence and/or submission. Gets the disired attention and doesn't cause too much chaos as the Council is already doing that with its Queen St upgrade

[Conquiztador]

Link to FEMA (Federation of Europena Motorcyclists Associations) info re barriers, and in particular wire barriers at the end.

http://www.fema.ridersrights.org/crashbarrier2005/crashbarrier2005.PDF


Here their report re barriers:

http://www.fema.ridersrights.org/crashbarrier/index.html


Hope that helps.

[Zapf]

The BRONZ national AGM is next week. I shall be attending. We (BRONZ Auckland) had an item put on the agenda some time ago about this. I expect the discussion to be spirited. I shall be advocating strident and direct action.

Can anyone confirm that the site of the recent tragedy did not have that much room between barrier and road lane ?

For my part, if they were to provide a 20 foot grass strip before the barrier I would be much less worried. 20 foot is a good space to regain control or lay the bike down (one of the few instances where I would agree with that technique.)


There would be nearly 3m at the impact site, (watch the TV footage) however the rest of that stretch of motorway would be under 3m and covered in plants. So wouldn't be clear or have the minimum setback

I can confirm in the section of the crash site, has around 2m of space between the right hand lane and the rope barrier. I haven't measured it but it is no where close to 3 meters. Also the video footage of the wire rope barrier is different to the wire rope barrier at the incident site. The barrier at the incident site was much taller and is formed of horizontal wire ropes, where as the one in the footage looks mini in comparison.

This was the crash location. Attachment can be opened in Google earth. I'll have GPS data in the near future

[Squiggles]

The most effective weapon with which to attack LTSA may be, not the existence of cheescutters themselves, but their installation.[\QUOTE]

This is where it needs to start by stopping.

[QUOTE]Ours seldom have that. If they are not installed in accordance with the required standards and best practice, then arguably LTSA might be guilty of negligence, even criminal negligence.

Tis very hard to wave off such a case

Dont like them at all, i doubt we will have them just removed, but stopping any further installations would be a starting point, replacement of the broken ones with normal barriers could be phased in. Fitting of extra devices (even just a sleeve) i dont expect transit will do, as much as we may wish, however if such a accident led to a negligence case i suspect something would have to be done much more quickly. :mellow:

[cooneyr]

I'm not entering this thing to far for professional reasons (i'm and traffic and transportation engineer) but I have a few suggestions. I don't do road design work so not looked into this in any detail.

Look into the total economic equation i.e. costs and benefits. You need to consider the construction and maintenance costs as well as the benefits of the barriers (yes there is a value placed on life in the evaluation procedures).

If a complete case is to be put forward to TNZ you need to look at the benefits to all road users i.e. motorcyclists, cars, and trucks. You may find for example that wire rope barriers kill motorcyclists and yet trap and slow down cars and trucks where as concrete J rails are better for motorcyclists and yet bounce cars and trucks back into the traffic stream and involve other vehicle in the accident. Tough stuff to study and get info on but try your best.

Lastly if you are going to annoy people contact the Ministry of Transport, Transit New Zealand Head Office in Wellington (sorry I don't have a contact), and Transit Regional Office in your area.

I dont mean to rain on the enthusiasm, rather trying to prove insight into the thinking behind current policy/design rules.

Cheers R

[Ocean1]

I'm not entering this thing to far for professional reasons (i'm and traffic and transportation engineer) but I have a few suggestions. I don't do road design work so not looked into this in any detail.

Look into the total economic equation i.e. costs and benefits. You need to consider the construction and maintenance costs as well as the benefits of the barriers (yes there is a value placed on life in the evaluation procedures).

If a complete case is to be put forward to TNZ you need to look at the benefits to all road users i.e. motorcyclists, cars, and trucks. You may find for example that wire rope barriers kill motorcyclists and yet trap and slow down cars and trucks where as concrete J rails are better for motorcyclists and yet bounce cars and trucks back into the traffic stream and involve other vehicle in the accident. Tough stuff to study and get info on but try your best.

Lastly if you are going to annoy people contact the Ministry of Transport, Transit New Zealand Head Office in Wellington (sorry I don't have a contact), and Transit Regional Office in your area.

I dont mean to rain on the enthusiasm, rather trying to prove insight into the thinking behind current policy/design rules.

Cheers R

Thanks for that. You're right, a less than well reasoned or informed reaction would be unfortunate, and probably inefective.

Couple of points, however. While I personally don't have a problem with using resources to best effect it seems to me that such policies potentially discriminate against bikers. We are a minority, but not a small one, and we're over-represented in both accident and fatality statistics, as evidenced by our high registration costs. It could reasonably be argued that optimising road safety for cars and trucks with little emphisis on the requirements of road design for bikes is not equitable.

I'd like more information on the original design purpose of wire barriers also. It seems to me I've heard that they're supposed to be employed with a minimum (3M?) separation from traffic lanes. In other words they're designed as a last resort measure to prevent head-on accidents, but are less than safe when installed too close to normal traffic streams. I've never seen such generous separation here, in fact in some places the wire IS the lane boundary.

One more point: Fuel surcharges were originally introduced as a "user pays" means of helping fund roading infrastructure maintenance and development. Where the fuck is it being spent?

[Max Preload]

Fuel surcharges were originally introduced as a "user pays" means of helping fund roading infrastructure maintenance and development. Where the fuck is it being spent?

You see all those sky dishes on houses in Labour's key electoral seats, low socio-economic areas... I think I have your answer...

[Drum]

....If they are not installed in accordance with the required standards and best practice, then arguably LTSA might be guilty of negligence, even criminal negligence.......

The LTSA doesn't exist any more and hasn't for a couple of years. They are now part of an organisation called Land Transport New Zealand (LTNZ).

Regardless, the barriers are not installed by LTNZ, they are installed by Transit NZ, and the man you need to contact at TNZ in Wellington is Roly Frost (General Manager Network Operations).

Other helpful links:

Transits Specification for Road Safety Barrier Systems (M/23):

http://www.transit.govt.nz/content_files/technical/Specification47_pdfFile.pdf

It's worth noting Section 5.2 which lists the complying guidelines, which can be found here............

http://www.transit.govt.nz/content_files/technical/Amendment30_PDFFile.pdf

Edit: And appendix A of M/23..........http://www.transit.govt.nz/content_files/technical/Specification150_pdfFile.pdf

[cooneyr]

Thanks for that. You're right, a less than well reasoned or informed reaction would be unfortunate, and probably inefective.

Couple of points, however. While I personally don't have a problem with using resources to best effect it seems to me that such policies potentially discriminate against bikers. We are a minority, but not a small one, and we're over-represented in both accident and fatality statistics, as evidenced by our high registration costs. It could reasonably be argued that optimising road safety for cars and trucks with little emphisis on the requirements of road design for bikes is not equitable.

You are very correct. Any reaction if well informed will have a much greater impact. I agree that there may be discrepancies between users but this will always be the case in many aspects of road design. Think of the amount on money spent on pedestrians in NZ. Most of the NZ roading budget goes into private car and truck facilities as they make up 99% of all road users.

Be careful using the accident statistics (real data) as a reason for improve road design from a motorcyclists perspective. There are the three E's - Engineering (aspect we are focusing on in this thread), Education (something the policy makers will focus on in response to any argument we put up) and Enforcement (many other KB threads). One of the hardest aspects in Central Government policy is acheving the "correct" balance (whatever that may be) between the three E's. I personally think that Education needs to be emphasised more in NZ. I like having to use my brain to negotiate a road rather than being wrapped in cotton wool and twisting the wrist/putting the foot down.

Remember that bikers have a bad rep for being hoons. Unless the complete accident data records are studied for all the minor details around the crash rather than the focusing on speed etc (me cyinical about the speeding policy - never :whistle:) we will never get the real picture. It is very easy to look at the crash data and determine that XX% of all crashes involve speed but if you look closer at the crash data (I have access) many of them will actually be too fast for the conditions. An example of of this is loss of control on a corner crash - speed was a factor (and is recorded as such) hence is picked up in the speed percentage serches but the driver may have been doing 60 around a 35 corner. This means that only targeting 105km + is targeting the wrong type of speeding in many cases i.e. excessive speed for the situation should be the the main target, hence do a driver for dangerous driving.


I'd like more information on the original design purpose of wire barriers also. It seems to me I've heard that they're supposed to be employed with a minimum (3M?) separation from traffic lanes. In other words they're designed as a last resort measure to prevent head-on accidents, but are less than safe when installed too close to normal traffic streams. I've never seen such generous separation here, in fact in some places the wire IS the lane boundary.

The pole spacing and the potential angle of impact are very relevant in this respect. The closer the pole spacing the smaller the penetration distance and also the shallower the angle of impact the smaller the angle of penetration.

I dont know the details but I'm sure there are specs on manufactures web sites that could be interrogated (can you help with specs Drum?). The way in which the barriers are used in central medians on some roads does seem a little odd to me.


One more point: Fuel surcharges were originally introduced as a "user pays" means of helping fund roading infrastructure maintenance and development. Where the fuck is it being spent?

Apparently (so I've heard but not read) 100% of all road user taxes (fuel surcharges and RUC) are used in roading now. I stand correct if I've heard wrong though.

R

[Edbear]

This is all well and good, of course, but are we missing the point?

For whatever reason, and that may come out soon, a biker came off his bike and hit the barrier. He was cut in half! The type of barrier caused his horrible death.

If this was a building such as the Imax theatre in Auckland where a young man fell to his death from a walkway, something would be urgently done about it.

Maybe the rider was speeding, maybe he was tired, the reason is irrelevant to the result.

People sometimes forget what is the important bit...

[Skyryder]

There's not much that has not been said already on the subject. However for those of you who want to do something about the removal/replacement of wire barriers, this is a big project and unless you have the time for the 'long haul' you may want to reconsider. Having said that these projects can be a lot of fun and if you do decide to proceed remember make it fun; that way when the bad times come, and they will and plenty of them, you can move on from the bad news. Like most things if you are to win you need a strategy in place.

First is a 'launch' you are promoting youselves and the danger that wire barriers are to the community as a whole. Best launching vehicle I know of is a protest that gets the media attention. There's been the odd suggestion of a ride to Parliment. Been awhile and it's nearing election time. Road safety always good as an election issue. Use it.

Someone suggested that you need data on accidents etc on wire barriers and that this can be difficult to aquire. Yes that is true, but not impossible. Find out what countries have used wire barriers and replaced them. Write to the appropiate government departments and ask for 'official data' on their reaons for removal etc. One armed with facts you can make more noise. Find a sympethatic MP. Preferbly one from the major parties. There heaps more but as you can imagine this all takes time. A small and 'dedicated' group can make a difference.

I wish you well for those who want to get involved with this.


Skyryder

[sAsLEX]

Christchurch riders will have noticed one of these things on the tunnel road heading towards Lyttelton, anyone know why transit spent the money? I cant find anyone who knows of an accident there that would justify this hazard, there used to be a gentle gradient on the grass allowing plenty of time to stop, and it provided a safe area should there be a breakdown, now it means cars and trucks have to stop in the lane and should you be riding up there at 2300, on pitch dark night, and the light fuse blows you have to try jamming yourself up against the bloody thing as cages wiz by at 100+ kph, none to pleasant.

The ones they added just North of Meremere turned the road into a killing zone with narrow lanes and no escape routes, was fantastic when tractors use the road which they used to avoid as they would be driving along the verge, now they are in the centre and cause havoc!


And why do we need barriers on the left hand edge of the road and relatively normal sections of road!? Has anyone in the industry got an idea?




Don't watch the clips if things are still raw, but this will show you what LTSA see, and why they see it. They're cheap, effective, and small, and do the job well. At the cost of.. well, we all know



I am sorry but how are they effective at stopping head ons?!

Those clips showed the vehicle pushing the barrier well into where the other lane would be in most NZ applications of the Wire Rope barrier. So to be effective theses zones should be yellow lined/ to the side of the road lane which they are not, but if they were then concrete barriers would have a far reduced foot print!!

[Ms Piggy]

They need to go.

As usual it takes a tragedy before action is taken, so this thread is for compiling information about why they should be removed, so lets stick to the facts.


Whats wrong with them
Should they be removed or modified
What other countries have done
How to approach/convince Transit NZ

No idle comments or guesses please. We just need info.

Here's my 2 cents worth:
- they can be fatal for motorcyclists.
This is also an issue for Aussie riders: http://www.ozbiker.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=601&Itemid=39
http://www.ozbiker.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=605&Itemid=39
-I believe they should either be removed or modified.
-I believe other countries have modified or banned their installation.
- A standard letter to send to our local MP as well as the Minsiter of Transport...it's Harry Duynhoven http://www.labour.org.nz/labour_team/mps/mps/harry_duynhoven/index.html

I had a quick scan through the thread and I don't think I've doubled up on anything anyone else has posted. Cheers and let me know if there's any way I can help...being in Welly I'm more than happy and confident to make an appointment to visit the Minister once some info has been compiled.

[raster]

Those barriers have saved many lives, that is not the argument I think.

would a vehicle coming the other way have not done as much damage.

I have been working on this for more that 12 months in my limited capacity, I am in for the long haul.

They can be modified to reduce the carnage to M/C riders!
Especially on corners. The one south of Meremere, the person who put that in should be shot!

I'm going to go and take some photos.

[MSTRS]

The ones they added (somewhere near) Meremere turned the road into a killing zone with narrow lanes and no escape routes...
First time I had ever seen or heard of these wire rope barriers was here....I was in a cage and I had thought that my motorcycling days were long over (until I got the 'bug' again)...anyway, one look at that vile installation and my immediate thought was "What happens to a human body hitting one of those things?"



And why do we need barriers on the left hand edge of the road and relatively normal sections of road!?
The strange thing about Govt-funded entities is that they have a budget allocated...which they must spend or risk reduction next year. Save here = spend there. Nobody ever said it had to be spent wisely...

[sAsLEX]

The strange thing about Govt-funded entities is that they have a budget allocated...which they must spend or risk reduction next year. Save here = spend there. Nobody ever said it had to be spent wisely...

Hotmix and decent tarmac in the first place would chew up some of this budget and benefit everyone, but we get crap road surfaces that are falling apart days after they have been put down and need repairs constantly. Have they ever heard of doing something once and doing it right? I mean some Roman era roads are still in use!

[tri boy]

As Ixion has mentioned, BRONZ has its AGM soon. Probably NZs most potent weapon in approaching the powers that be.
This is NZ riders chance to consolidate in a sensible manner, and support BRONZ in its efforts to improve our rights as road users.
The Ozzie chapter of said organisation has been active in state and Federal policies for over 20 yrs, and have made some good inroads into riders rights.
I've been slack in supporting BRONZ. Time I made a change.

[DEATH_INC.]

Minsiter of Transport...it's Harry Duynhoven http://www.labour.org.nz/labour_team/mps/mps/harry_duynhoven/index.html


Maybe the opposition mp may be a better place, give him some ammo on the current one, and he may fight for us if it get's him some publicity (read votes)

[ceebie13]

Does anyone from the three emergency services have a comment about these wire barriers?

[DEATH_INC.]

Does anyone from the three emergency services have a comment about these wire barriers?
Draco is a nurse and ex Ambo....

[bugjuice]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10471320

might actually have a voice now. Their page links back to KB too
well done Felix, sorry you had to go thru all this mate

[_Gina_]

They can be modified to reduce the carnage to M/C riders!
Especially on corners.

Exactly.

Surely we are talking about addressing the unacceptable risk to motorcyclists that the wire ropes pose?

Would be great to remove them but potentially this is not viable.

Modifying them is.

[Conquiztador]

(Federation of European Motorcylists Associations)

Quoted from email recieved from Aline Delhay, FEMA.
It has in August been sent to Shaun Lennard, Chairman, Australian Motorcycle Council and has been forwarded to me as a result of my enquiry:


"Regarding the guardrail issue, the case is complex.

The overall problem of guardrail in Europe is that the European Standard for building guardrails (EN1317) does not take motorcyclists into account. It is tested for light vehicles, heavy vehicles, and trucks, but not motorcycles. This situation allows manufacturers to develop barrier products inappropriate for motorcyclists, like wire rope barriers (WRB).

We’ve been fighting long (almost 20 years) for that to be recognized and adapted. In June 2007, we got it recognized by the CEN (the European Standardization Committee) and they voted a resolution that this should be revised. We are now in the process of revising the standard and this will take something like 5 years.

In the meantime, due to the FEMA members’ action, several initiatives have been taken at national level, among which those you mentioned, but also the Portuguese law - making it compulsory to protect guardrails with a double rail -, the Spanish standard, the French protocol. New standards are currently being finalized in Austria, Germany, Italy, the UK and soon Sweden. Obviously, they will all need to be replaced by the European one when it will be ready.

Below, answers to your queries from my members:

In the Netherlands the wire rope barrier is no longer a topic, it is and will stay banned from our roads. The existing ones have been removed and so far no politician or traffic department dares promoting the use of WRB’s. Since april this year the Dutch Road Authorities started installing 60.000 mtr motorcycle friendly crashbarrier on black spots and curves of our motorways. We always pointed out during our ‘fight’ that it does not need a lot study to recognise the greater potential danger of a WRB, specially compared to the conventional model with the extra protection for motorcyclists where bodies cannot be ‘caught’ by the posts of the barrier. In our view a WRB only has disadvantages for motorcyclists (Source: Nico Perk – MAG NL’s President);

From SMC; the Swedish Motorcyclist’s Association: At the end of December 2006 there were 1 295 kilometers of 1+2 roads and 35 km 2+2 roads. It is a part of the Vision Zero, where the goal was to lower the number of killed in traffic to 280 persons in 2007. This goal will not be reached, 201 were killed until 30th June. Almost 100 % of all barriers used are cable barriers, since they are cheap to install. SMC tried to fight the cable barrier from the very start but has not succeded. We have mainly complained about the posts but also with the cables (see The Road to Success at the FEMA website). There are some really lousy posts with hooks attached to have the cable in, see attached photo. Cable barriers are also installed at road sides. Our national parliament, all political parties and most road safety organisations are in favour of Vision Zero and the cable barrier. This is, according to me, why we haven’t succeded. During the years 1998-2005 seven motorcyclists have been killed in roads with cable barriers, two hit the cable. 17 has been seriously injured, nine of them hit the cable. Most killed and injured were at junctions. There has been at least 1 motorcyclist killed in a cable barrier accident this year and several injured. In 2006 six motorcyclists were killed in accidents with crash barriers of all types in Sweden. The number of motorcyclists killed in crash barrier accidents are increasing. This is a natural cause of all the crash barriers and a fact that is accepted by the National Swedish Road Administration. It was stated in a research done on their behalf in 2005.( http://www.vti.se/EPiBrowser/Publikationer/N43-2005.pdf ). At last, this year the National Swedish Road Administration are saying that cable barriers are not the best solution for motorcyclists. A new national standard is going to be developed for a mc-friendly barrier as well as a standard for where to install mc-friendly barriers. We are not expecting a country with no cable barriers for a number of years. The post with hooks is no longer used. The National Road administration are going to implement a motorcycle perspective when building and maintaining roads. SMC is going to take part in a working group to produce the standard and guidelines for installation. There are more reasons than the safety for bikers that causes the change with the authorities. The cost to maintain and repair the cable barriers are huge. It is the most costly barrier to repair but cheapest to install. It is also expensive for the insurance companies AND our own insurances. (exam work from Chalmers university, http://publications.lib.chalmers.se/cpl/record/index.xsql?pubid=40293. The road maintenance on 2+1 roads is also a problem. Since cars and heavy lorries use the same part of the road all the time, trail marks are developed that needs repair.

In Denmark: info missing (to be forwarded as soon as I receive it)

Norway: In a press conference in Oslo in August 2006, the Norwegian Minister of Transport, Mrs. Liv Signe Navarsete, made the following announcement: “I have, in agreement with the Norwegian Public Roads Administration, reviewed the objections from the Norwegian Motorcycle Union (NMCU), and examined the case more closely. Today I have this message to the NMCU and the Norwegian motorcyclists: The Public Roads Administration shall hereafter use crash barrier types that offer a high level of safety for all groups of road users, including the PTW riders. This implies that there will be no more road stretches fitted with cable barriers, beyond those already installed.” The approx. 100 km of cable barriers installed before August 2006 will stand until time for renewal, when they will be replaced with a more "motorcycle-friendly" design.

In the UK: For the UK the statement from the Highways Agency is correct. Further information can be found at http://www.network.mag-uk.org/barriers/index.html which includes the fitting of motorcycle friendly crash barriers. The latest being Peak Protection for Motorcyclists. You mentioned Brifen type wire rope barriers. If they are involved at any stage they may try to say that MAG UK support wire rope barriers. They will do this by showing a copy of a letter from over 15 years ago and perhaps a video produced many years ago, which will have a MAG logo and commentary that the organisation supports wire rope barriers. This is the statement MAG UK issued when we discovered this was happening, which you can use. “The Motorcycle Action Group (MAG UK) supports our colleagues in riders’ organisations who are engaged with their road authorities in removing wire rope barriers from the road infrastructure. Due to the open nature of the design which exposes the upright steel posts and wire cables, MAG UK considers that wire rope barrier systems are the most aggressive vehicle restraint system used on the roads. MAG UK does not endorse any vehicle restraint system or the manufacturer of any of these systems. It is the position of MAG UK that the main cause of injury to riders is the exposed upright posts of all vehicle restraint systems. MAG UK’s aim is to improve the safety of vehicle restraint systems thus reducing the potential for injury and death of motorcyclists when impacting these systems. Therefore MAG UK is currently campaigning for steel beam barriers to be fitted with a ‘motorcycle-friendly’ secondary rail and to have wire rope barriers removed from the road infrastructure in the UK.”

I am currently in the process of gathering all information available on guardrail. The problem as you may have noticed is that most of the time the information (both political and technical) is available in the national language… So, apart from finding information, having it translated in English, is another one. In addition to that FEMA is currently facing another more critical problem: we are lacking financial resources to attend all the necessary meetings and ensure work on the guardrail issue. Each travel for a 2-day meeting cost between 500 and 1000€ and if you add translation costs, participation fees, etc. I evaluated that we need a 5000€ budget/year… I’m therefore trying to think about solutions (sponsoring, fundraising).

I hope this provides you with a clearer picture of the situation here in Europe"


Have also attached two of FEMA's recent press releases re the issue. Hope this can help.

[Brett]

This is the misconception. One report I read said concrete barriers were $150/m with basically no maintenance and an 80yr + lifespan, also can cost even less if done in large runs. Plus it stops all traffic

Wire was $120/m and resulted in $80/m to repair after an impact, its only effective in stopping cars and bikes but not trucks


http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-01/esv/esv19/05-0095-O.pdf

This report directly reports on crash testing using bikes vs concrete and wire. The wire fails miserably. Results are on page 11

That report makes it very clear doesn't it.

[ManDownUnder]

Not sure if this is the right place to start this or not... can we collate actual examples of cheese cutters killing motorcyclists?

We need a factual/neutral view on this and if we have a body of evidence it makes the following claim difficult to support.

"But Transit's national operations manager, Dave Bates, denied there was much difference in cost between wire and steel barriers and said the main reason for using wire was its greater effectiveness in protecting most road users.
He could recall no previous deaths of motorcyclists hitting wire barriers and did not believe they would have much more of a chance against traditional W-section steel guard-rails."
(http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10471320)

2 mins on Google found this:

http://www2b.abc.net.au/science/k2/stn/archives/archive56/newposts/596/topic596200.shtm
<TABLE width="100%"><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD>From: seedy</TD><TD align=right>17/07/2003 5:26:47 PM
</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Subject: re: Speed cameras</TD><TD align=right>post id: 596383
</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD colSpan=2>Sadly a 17 year old learner was killed after hitting one of the new wire barriers that was installed in Burwood Hwy Upper Ferntree Gully. I'm a local volunteer firefighter and, from experience, this accident probably wouldn't have killed him before the wire barrier was installed. On the other hand, there are many more cars traversing this dangerous stretch of road - so I guess that the community is better off statistically.
===

I note pre July Two Wheels magazine from 2003 seems to have run an article (or series?) on these things. Does anyone out there have copies?

This is BS to allow cheescutters to remin in place if they are dismembering riders who would have otherwise been sore... but ok.


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[RiderInBlack]

So if there is supposed ta be 3m space between the lane and the "Biker Cutters", why is there so many of these dam things right next to the lane (Puhoi-Waiwera and the NEW Hamilton-Auckland Expressway)? I know the Puhoi-Waiwera ones are temporary, but it is a single lane carriageway which often puts me in a position as a biker where I am with in arm reach of these deadly barriers.

[Riff Raff]

Does anyone from the three emergency services have a comment about these wire barriers?

I can't actually comment from a professional point of view, but personally I am opposed to them as they create an unacceptable risk to motorcyclists. I haven't been to any incidents involving motorcyclists v wire barrier, but I will be chatting to my colleagues when I go back to work on Wed to see whether they have.

[Ixion]

Not sure if this is the right place to start this or not... can we collate actual examples of cheese cutters killing motorcyclists?

..<table width="100%"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td></td><td align="right"></td></tr><tr valign="top"><td></td><td align="right"></td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan="2">


</td></tr></tbody></table>

Is not road safety supposed to be proactive, preventing death and injury, rather than waiting for it to happen ? So how many cut-in-half bikers would be 'sufficient' for Transit?

There is objective evidence in the report cited by Mr Fub@r. I take the liberty of quoting for those who have not read it



In all the simulated wire rope barrier collisions, the
wires guided the motorcycle into the posts leading
to heavy contact with the post. The motorcycle and
the rider were subjected to large decelerations
because of this snagging effect and hence elevating
the injury risk for the rider.
While the simulations in this report are preliminary,
and work is continuing to refine the MADYMO
models and calibrate them against the DEKRA
tests, they show that the risk of injury to a
motorcyclist colliding with either a wire rope or a
concrete barrier will be high. The findings also
suggest that while the current design of flexible
barriers has safety advantages over concrete
barriers for passenger vehicles, the opposite may be
true for motorcyclists. Most of all, it has
highlighted the need for further research into the
area of motorcycle collisions with various crash
barriers.


And that research was from Transit's beloved Monash University. They are quick enough to seize on findings from there when it suits them, so I do not think they can dispute it.

[RiderInBlack]

Just a stray thought here re: protest ride. A number of us have "Track-day Bike" vans, and there is bound to be the odd truckie among us. Why not have those trailing the protest rides (if we go ahead with the protest) to provide "safety" for the riders ahead? Would be happy to bring my Hiace LW work van to help with this ("Roxanne" can come along in the back of it, "she'd" love ta be there too).

[Spinster]

I think this issue needs to be treated like a proper PR campaign. While it’s great that individual people are looking at applying pressure, there does need to be a strategic, centralised approach if it’s to work.

Develop a strategic plan that outlines your objectives and the tactics that will be used to achieve them. This could include:

* Develop key messages for use in all communication on the issue (ie. the three or four things you want to say)
* Arm yourself with lots of credible research that supports your case.
* Appoint a spokesperson who is knowledgeable, articulate and who handles all media contact and becomes the face of the campaign
* Develop a programme of engaging the media
* Identify well known, trusted people who ride and can endorse the cause (the media will be keen to interview them and it will increase coverage). If they’re good sorts, they’ll do it for free.
* Identify which Minister/s to target. Embarrassing them into action is likely to be less effective than finding a way that will make them look good if they do. Everyone wants to be the Minister that Saves Lives!

[peat]

Theres a huge report on motorcylists and barriers from Europe here

http://www.fema.ridersrights.org/crashbarrier/index.html

Might be useful for anyone doing submissions etc.

[Scorpygirl]

Like many I support the ban of the "cheese-cutters". There has been much debate on this site and in other biking fraternities about how lethal these barriers are. Unfortunately it has taken the very horrific death of a young man to highlight just how lethal they are to motorcyclists. Let's heed the advice of the European countries!!

[MSTRS]

Like many I support the ban of the "cheese-cutters". There has been much debate on this site and in other biking fraternities about how lethal these barriers are. Unfortunately it has taken the very horrific death of a young man to highlight just how lethal they are to motorcyclists. Let's heed the advice of the European countries!!

We've always known this. Sadly, it takes a tragedy to become the catalyst for change. Done right, I hope we can make a difference for all riders.

[marty]

completely irresponsible, but pretty effective - fit a big bar with a 45 degree trail to the side of a tractor, 200mm off the ground, and drive alongside the wire barriers, popping/breaking all the posts out of the ground.

THAT would cause some discussion :)

[Ocean1]

fit a big bar with a 45 degree trail to the side of a tractor, 200mm off the ground, and drive alongside the wire barriers, popping/breaking all the posts out of the ground.

Decent bit of civil disobedience huh? To be honest I was wondering why it'd taken so long...

Sounds like your hand's up dude. You'll need a decent sized rig, if you need help with the post reaper bit let me know eh?

[jahrasti]

Cheese cutters can be retrofitted to make them safer, which is what countries that have them fitted are starting to do they see they are not the be all and end all.
They are also very expensive to maintain and Deano was right as concrete is cheaper in the long run.

I used to have heaps of info on them from when I was in civil engineering but my computer shit itself and I think it has gone.

The trouble is all the testing doesn't usually involve motorbikes.

[raster]

I like the idea of pouring the concrete over the top of them, then you have reinforced concrete barriers.

[saltydog]

I'm just glad I dont live anywhere near the bloody things!
CHEESE GRATERS ARE NOT THE GO. At least we have a chance to slide down a concrete barrier no?!

[Chrislost]

Motorcycling safety consultant Allan Kirk told the Herald that although there might be some stretches of road where wire could be justified because of limited space, notably the narrow coastal highway north of Wellington, it was "utterly unforgivable" of Transit to install these where there was enough room for steel barriers.


Thats form the herald site.
by steel barriers i hope he does not mean armco!
whatever they put in needs to extend from the ground up and not have holes in.

[Ixion]

I have just been contacted by 'phone by Matthew Dearnley of the NZ Herald. They are planning a followup tomorrow. I have plugged the "if they can't be removed, then make them safe, as they are doing in Europe" line with him. He intimates that Transit's position is that maybe they do kill motorcyclists , but they save a greater number of cagers than they kill bikers, so it's all good.

BTW, he is trying to get hold of Zapf and Draco, so if either of you see this could you give him a call please.

I've told him I'll send him the FEMA links, and the one from Mr Fub@r.

It appears he has also been contacted by a gentleman (he mentioned the name but I had to agree not to divulge it publicly - PM me if you think it may be relevant) who claims to have knowledge of the recent tragedy, and claims that "it was all due to excessive speed". So I thinki that may become an unpleasant sub motif.

EDIT: I am taking my position as

A safety barrier should not make roads safer for some road users at the expense of increased danger to other road users. Safety barriers should be designed, and can be, to make the roads safer for ALL road users.

EDITY EDIT:

The gentleman mentioned above is this one



Anonymous
According to TV3 News, police estimate this young man was traveling at 150KPH. The death is a tragedy for the victim and his family. But I'm fed up with motorcyclists who think they can operate outside the law. To those who are now grumbling about the safety of median barriers - how about focusing on your own safety and the cars around you. How about sticking to the speed limit. How about showing some responsibility instead of demanding that motorways be turned into drag strips. I'm quite happy with the present arrangement. If motorcyclists don't like the wire barrier, slow down or speed somewhere else.

[candor]

More barriers are critical to prevent serious crashes - they're the number 1 way the safest countries for road users have blitzed their toll. And also the most potent intervention we have at our fingertips given our high head ons.

But the barriers should be as safe as they can be. Accepting grotesque collateral damage being visited on a few to save the many justified just for initial cost savings (saving $30 a metre but higher ongoing maintenance) has to be a false economy.

To my mind the strongest case you can all put is one based on wire ropes being a false economy using hard data - and presenting the options with solid figures for how effective they'd be for all road users.

Push the truck angle I reckon. If wire ropes don't stop trucks that is important to cagers because trucks are projected to increase their vehicle K's significantly in the next decade. See RTF website or other truck websites for details.
And trucks are involved in more than their share of crashes versus trucks in other countries (even if not at fault quite as often as cagers - they nearly as often are though).

Making it about cost effectiveness and meeting the set road toll goals (which cover all road users) with a non emotive argument, one that does not make bikers look like they are not aware of other road users safety needs seems important.

To me that implies that merely saying get rid of the cheese cutters doesn't cut it. In the numbers game they are doing their job - saving lives overall. You have to seek and present viable options in both a cost and road safety sense,as it appears the European bikers are well ahead on doing.

Also as they note progress takes time as Institutions move slow. It is a matter of convincing many key people in Govt Departments where road safety is concerned, politicians etc generally just graze and have short attntion spans so can't be relied on to take up the cause.

Transit does its own research but I know that if you can find better or produce new info or analyses then a presentation to the key policy people may be worthwhile as a start.

The immediate need right now I agree with some other posters on this thread is to get any current wire barriers to both comply with standards for set backs and to be covered with protective barriers as they are elsewhere.

BTW you can't sue for negligence causing death in NZ under public law if the dead party was not an Individual the Government knew of and knew they were placing at risk eg by putting barriers in without correct set back.
Companies can get sued under OSH for killing employees but Govt can kill us anytime it likes - that's what's truly special about NZ!

The Sensible Sentencing Trust case against the Parole Board for it's negligence on behalf of the RSA victims is trying to set a precedent to change that. We can't kill through stupidity ='s manslaughter. But isn't that what happened to the poor victim. Uncovered barrier without right setback encountered AFTER concerns already raised. It is criminal. A bit of a rant soz but hope I included some useful info. in there.

PS - regarding blaming the victim for speeding. So noxious - maybe squeeze in at interview rejoinders to BS eg say that civilised countries don't ask what caused the problem as it can be a range of things often not your fault eg tyre blowouts (as noted already) - so look instead to solve or mitigate the problem. Mistakes shouldn't equal deserve death.

[Skyryder]

I think this issue needs to be treated like a proper PR campaign. While it’s great that individual people are looking at applying pressure, there does need to be a strategic, centralised approach if it’s to work.

Develop a strategic plan that outlines your objectives and the tactics that will be used to achieve them. This could include:

* Develop key messages for use in all communication on the issue (ie. the three or four things you want to say)
* Arm yourself with lots of credible research that supports your case.
* Appoint a spokesperson who is knowledgeable, articulate and who handles all media contact and becomes the face of the campaign
* Develop a programme of engaging the media
* Identify well known, trusted people who ride and can endorse the cause (the media will be keen to interview them and it will increase coverage). If they’re good sorts, they’ll do it for free.
* Identify which Minister/s to target. Embarrassing them into action is likely to be less effective than finding a way that will make them look good if they do. Everyone wants to be the Minister that Saves Lives!

Listen to this man. He knows what it's about.

Skyryder

[candor]

Anon at the Herald site is prolly a paid Govt damage control agent.

[monica]

Please give us plenty of notice if some-one does organise a ride in protest. Lets face facts one person can not make a difference but united we can possible do. Monica:confused:

[kitsune]

I for one am very keen for us to get together and grind the CBD of auckland to a halt with our bikes to make our selfs known to the bastards, seeing that guy go though such a horrific accident made me think of firstly myself, being new to the big bikes, my mate who is new to biking period and my other mate who travels on that stretch daily. Secondly we have a problem in nz where we have a lot of plastics that cant be recycled due to lack of facility, the idea of putting plastic cladding / covers on those death traps is a great idea, im not an engineer but wouldn't a honeycomb inner with a shredded / gratted outer core take more speed out of anyone hitting the barrier with relitivly low manufacture costs?. Being the honeycomb underneath would crush and dent - less blunt impact of hitting say naked concrete, and the outer layer to slow the rider down ,as if im not mistaken a slightly corse outer layer to reduce speed , and if your wearing correct safety gear / armor will slow you down a lot faster a, better yet have no concern for a car hitting the same area , where it will simply loose some paint. The idea i envisage they would come in pre-fabricated blocks and a simple ether slide n lock system or a glue style , better yet they could be used on other barrier types , that are while better then cheese cutters could be improved upon. Then bam 2 problems solved at once safer roads, and plastics are recycled. Which we (as a country) might even be able to push towards the kyoto agreement. I will be talking with my uncle in the next day or so , who has about 30 odd years in engineering and see if he can give me some ideas, see if i can get some sort of proposal together. And for the idea of slowing down when around those things i fucking love it, wouldn't be able to do it safely on your own due to some cager likely to try n overtake / knock you off, but if done as a group could be a nice protest. The other idea of knocking the barriers down would be good in the short term but could ultimately lead to more fatalities. Thats my 2 cents anyhow, Keep it safe out there guys.

[Brett]

I think this issue needs to be treated like a proper PR campaign. While it’s great that individual people are looking at applying pressure, there does need to be a strategic, centralised approach if it’s to work.

Develop a strategic plan that outlines your objectives and the tactics that will be used to achieve them. This could include:

* Develop key messages for use in all communication on the issue (ie. the three or four things you want to say)
* Arm yourself with lots of credible research that supports your case.
* Appoint a spokesperson who is knowledgeable, articulate and who handles all media contact and becomes the face of the campaign
* Develop a programme of engaging the media
* Identify well known, trusted people who ride and can endorse the cause (the media will be keen to interview them and it will increase coverage). If they’re good sorts, they’ll do it for free.
* Identify which Minister/s to target. Embarrassing them into action is likely to be less effective than finding a way that will make them look good if they do. Everyone wants to be the Minister that Saves Lives!


Brilliant advice and I think it should be the foundations of anything we decide to do. A good start would be the best person to face the campaign, I would be inclined to vote Ixion if he is willing, otherwise open to ideas.

[cold comfort]

have watched these appearing randomly in my district with anger and apprehension- contacted local BRONZ last night. Its on their agenda for next meeting. Lets hope this latest unnecessary death is a catalyst for change!

[DEATH_INC.]

BTW, he is trying to get hold of Zapf and Draco, so if either of you see this could you give him a call please.
Done, We have contacted him.

[R6_kid]

There are a few videos of MotoGP/Superbikes lowsiding at 200kmh+ with the rider getting up and walking away unscathed. The message needs to be that it is the cheese cutter that is doing the damage.

One idea to get the word out is to send and email with a decent message protesting the barriers. Then after the message you add your name and send it on to the next person, every 100th person sends the email to the responsible person at LTSA, and the person organising the emial, as far as I am aware it is an official form of petition, which brings me to my next point.

Petition - I'm sure there are enough of us around the country with a couple of hours spare on the weekends to hang out at malls/shopping centres/bike shops etc, to gather up signatures to build support against the barriers. There may be a certain number we need to reach, but I'm sure it can be done.

[DEATH_INC.]

To me that implies that merely saying get rid of the cheese cutters doesn't cut it. In the numbers game they are doing their job - saving lives overall. You have to seek and present viable options in both a cost and road safety sense,as it appears the European bikers are well ahead on doing.
Yes, this is a good point, we don't neccessaraly want them removed, making them safe for us is what we are after. Asking / demanding they be removed will not work, they DO do the job they were put there for, we just want them safe for ALL road users. And this replies to all barriers, not just the cheese cutters.

[RiderInBlack]

Please don't say that his speed killed him as we have not got all the facts yet.

[R6_kid]

Perhaps a 'hikoi by bike' to Parliament would work? That would mean getting the message to a much larger audience, it doesn't have to be obstructive in anyway, but if we all travel in large convoy, both from the North and the South then not only would it get good media coverage, but we would be spreading the word as we travelled from our respective start points.

Just an idea :yes:

[Sanx]

It has been suggested that the frame of his bike failed (like this bike (http://www.wsbtv.com/news/9314629/detail.html)), causing him to be thrown in to the "Biker Cutters". If that is so the "Biker Cutters" would have still killed Back Fire even if he was riding within the limit. Don't think any rider would have faired any better if this was the case. So please don't say that his speed killed him as we have not got all the facts yet.

<< Edited out >>

[Brett]

It has been suggested that the frame of his bike failed (like this bike (http://www.wsbtv.com/news/9314629/detail.html)), causing him to be thrown in to the "Biker Cutters". If that is so the "Biker Cutters" would have still killed Back Fire even if he was riding within the limit. Don't think any rider would have faired any better if this was the case. So please don't say that his speed killed him as we have not got all the facts yet.

regardless of the outcome of the frame inspection on Dans bike, this is the last gsxr I will own. I Love my bike with undying passion, however the next GSXR may not quite have the same build quality...seems they just aren't willing to get it right.
The speed issue was irrelevant in Dans case, he never had a chance at any speed against the barrier.

[illusivemenace]

Perhaps a 'hikoi by bike' to Parliament would work? That would mean getting the message to a much larger audience, it doesn't have to be obstructive in anyway, but if we all travel in large convoy, both from the North and the South then not only would it get good media coverage, but we would be spreading the word as we travelled from our respective start points.

Just an idea :yes:

im in:angry2:

[sunhuntin]

Petition - I'm sure there are enough of us around the country with a couple of hours spare on the weekends to hang out at malls/shopping centres/bike shops etc, to gather up signatures to build support against the barriers. There may be a certain number we need to reach, but I'm sure it can be done.

get a hold of local triumph clubs too... i will be passing this info on to the wanganui crew when i next see them, see if they are keen to set up a table at the mall or something. it may also be able to built into up coming toy runs as well, have a table with as much info as possible with sheets for signatures etc.

[avgas]

correct me if im wrong - but what would make it any worse than any other road in NZ if we ripped the succkers out?
20 ton Hitachi digger could do it easy. But you would have to do it in sections, 1 section a night.
Removing the worst sections first.
I know talk is cheap on the internet - but just to bounce an idea out there.

[JMemonic]

I was wondering how long it would be before folks started bringing in the speed issue into it, I had meant to get up to the local cheese wires today and get some photos and measurements, but ran out of time.

I my thoughts are right and from the comments the steel upright is the main problem area. I am sure that the edges on these will act as a blade and no matter the speed and could potentially sever a limb even through our protective gear this causing a potential life ending injury.

I had a thought today about a form of covering, (and perhaps I am reinventing the wheel here), that could be manufactured here in NZ using recycled materials it could of course cause a broken bone, but that is by far a better option than to bleed out on the road side while waiting on our emergency services.

I will attempt to explain the idea but I often have trouble putting ideas to words so please forgive me if it is difficult but I am sure one of the folks here with design skills should be able to translate and draw up a plan.

The concept is to use recycled plastics, a multi layered covering consisting of a sold core 15-20mm thick off this is a set of ribs 0.5-1mm thick with an outside diameter of 10-15mm with a gap between then of about 5 mm, the best way I can describe this is think of a bolt thread, then over this an outer covering of about 5mm. This could be designed to wrap around the steel upright and clip into place, sealed at the top to avoid water entering and filling the chamber, this device would serve a couple of functions, 1 it would remove ability of the upright to act as a blade and 2 it would act as a form of cushion.

Perhaps this is not the right place to post this but there are folks reading this forum, if a device like this can be built and retro fitted to save just one life, which could be the life or your friend, of family isn't to worth exploring options.

Perhaps you are an engineer and can design a better solution, or a manufacture who can build a device, if my thoughts and ideas get some sort of work and options happening then so be it. I was taught if you see a problem try and work out a solution.

[Dave_G]

This is one of the best studies I've seen to date on this subject. It includes a lot of analysis of the various barrier systems and a series of comparitive tests.

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-01/esv/esv19/05-0095-O.pdf

Its too long to detail here so have a read yourseleves. Some of the real world examples quoted support the argument the motor cyclists have against this barrier system.

Like wise the story on this link says it all as well. Even the large and (largely immovable)EU machine has acknowledged there is a problem.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/concern-over-wire-rope-crash-barriers-sparks-eu-review-1138376.html

[avgas]

So lets concertrate on 1 thing at a time - in this instance the fence needs to change obviously.

[Fub@r]

You guys are right about the amount of plastic being recycled or should I say collected........

Was working around a landfill a couple of years ago and was shocked to see those huge red waste trucks from around Auckland dumping truck and trailer loads of milk containers in to the landfill. So much for recycling

[JMemonic]

Even if he was only doing 99kph, speed would have been a factor. But it is a risk we take day in and day out.
So lets concentrate on 1 thing at a time - in this instance the fence needs to change obviously.

This is in my opinion is the core of the issue, lets not lose sight of this please.

[illusivemenace]

what about a modified version of thos temp plastic interlocabe barriers they could easily be modded to slip over cheese cutters and the steel barriers and bolted down easily and cheaply replaced and they would take a damb site more impact out than concrete
the more i think about it the easier it seems..............to easy??

[FROSTY]

Folks A little point here. If you want to sell something to someone the way to do it is to show the problem and OFFER A SOLUTION. One that is palatable to them .
I'd suggest that modifying the existiing cheese cutter would be whatthey willmost likely go for.

[RiderInBlack]

Please don't say that his speed killed him as we have not got all the facts yet. Sorry guys the above post was made to a post now PD'ed. The barriers are still the main point here.

[cooneyr]

correct me if im wrong - but what would make it any worse than any other road in NZ if we ripped the succkers out?
20 ton Hitachi digger could do it easy. But you would have to do it in sections, 1 section a night.
Removing the worst sections first.
I know talk is cheap on the internet - but just to bounce an idea out there.

Think of the difference between a head on crash and a nose to tail crash. Much better to have a nose to tail than a head on due to the speed differential of the colliding vehicles. Head on crash speed differential can be 200 + kph where as nose to tail crash speed differential will be more likely in the range < 80kph.

It is all to do with the type of crash rather than the number of crashes and it only becomes an issue when the traffic volumes reach certain point. The probability of having a head on crash is small if there is only one other vehicle on the same 1 kms section of road as you.

I absolutely agree with comments regarding making the barriers safer for all users - this should be one of the main thrusts for any campaign. Offering an alternative is going to get much better traction that simply advocating banning and removal. Lastly the comments about politicians being short term and vote orientated vs govt dept staff being in it for the long haul are very correct. This is not to say that getting a polly onboard would not be worth while but their support may be lost during or post election.

Cheers R

[Ian.S]

Been on the Sunshine Coast for about 2 months now, they are installing both Cheese Cutter and Armco over here.

[ManDownUnder]

In terms of a campaign - think the messaging is actually pretty simple.

We're on side with LTNZ - we want road safety too.

Monash Uni's research predicted the unfortunate outcome of the recent accident. While speed appears to have been a factor the question is actually one of outcomes.

What would have most likely happened if a concrete median barrier was in place?

Or to rephrase - what's the best solution. We have theroetical proof backed up by a real life incident that cheese cutters aren't. So how do we fix it. What is the better solution

====
If speed's the only issue then we should be able to hit the wire barriers at 100kph and suffer no more injury than we would if we hit another type of barrier/deflection device.

I don't believe this to be the case

Our focus needs to be on road safety. We're actually on the same team as LTNZ on that point - the exception being we don't have money to lose... it's our lives and loved ones.

[FJRider]

If you hit anything at 100kmh on / in anything, pain is usually involved. Barriers can be installed to stop,or slow down anything hitting them.Depending on circumstance or location,it can be difficult to say which one is better.What may stop a bike,may not stop a car.If speed is found to be a/the problem,lower speed limits could be applied. Cheaper than re-designing the road or replacing barriers.Be careful what you ask for. Motorcycling is dangerous,thats why we pay higher acc levies than car owners. Good insurance for bike and body, is a must nowdays. Well at least highly reccomended. RIDE SAFE,and if you know you're NOT...whoose fault if...

[EnzoYug]

"The biomecanical tolerance of deceleration for a chest impact is 600-800m/s2. This figure was exceeded with the unprotected post (860m/s2), but with the protected post, deceleration was only 472m/s2.
This shows that the polystyrene protector can turn a fatal accident into a accident causing only slight injuries."

Wrap the wires in plastic. It's the only way - getting rid of them isn't an economically or safety viable solution. Instead get those wires wrapped in plastic and have them replaced with recycled sleepyhead inner-sprung mattresses at a later date - as tax allows.

If anyone here has links to PR or TV now would be the time to drop a 'ready-to-eat' story in a producers lap. "Motorcyclists murdered by design..." - give them a few links, a bit of research, someone to interview and few stills of wrecked bikes - they'd be all over it. Turn the moral/social panic machine to our own ends for a bit.

My 2c

[FJRider]

The only ones that give a toss about motorcyclists ARE motorcyclists. Civil disobedience will give us a bad boy/girl image. HEY... Dont we have that now

[Sanx]

The core safety issue behind the cheesecutter barriers is not the cables as such, but the deformable steel legs holding them up. They trap limbs and act as cutting edges.

In terms of simple solutions (#8 fencing wire type solutions), what needs to be achieved is to prevent a motorcyclist from impacting the support legs. Something as simple as a couple of sheets of flooring chipboard bolted either side of the barrier would have that effect. OK, it'd disintegrate when it rained, but I'm sure marine ply or something similar could be used to overcome that problem.

What's really needed though is a substance that provides some element of impact absorbtion whilst presenting a flat-ish surface that cars, bikes, and their riders can slide down. As in the crude drawing attached, make a long plastic container that would slot neatly over the existing barriers. Make it cover three legs at a time to provide some stability. Obviously, this would need a method of fixing it down. Easy - fill it with water. By leaving an air gap at the top of the tub and partially sealing it, there's some impact protection. The plastic deforms forcing the water up compressing the air gap. Should it be hit hard enough, then the plastic will split ... but the mere act of suddenly forcing all the water out will absorb some energy. You'd end up with all of the benefits of the wire-rope barriers, but with added impact absorbtion. In addition, with no legs to get caught up in, the danger to motorcyclists would be greatly reduced.

Mainentance would be easy. Remove a plug out of the bottom, drain the water out and two grown men could probably lift the cover off manually. Easy to replace. No fixings or tie-downs would be necessary - once filled, the system would be self-supporting.

Now for some field research. I've just gone down to Douglas Bader Drive in Manukau (the approach road to the airport) where two stretches of cheese-cutters were installed some time late last year. The barriers are 153cm from the edge of the road. The support legs are 75cm high and are installed at 150cm intervals. Each leg has an 'S' shaped cross section, with the 'points' of the 'S' facing away from the oncoming traffic. The legs are 10cm wide, 2cm thick and constructed from 5mm thick metal (presumably steel). The top-most cable is 67cm from the ground. From a highly scientific survey of one truck, the bottom of the front bumper was 46 cm from the ground. This bumper was fixed at the top only (admittedly, by massive fixings) - around 80cm from the ground.

Photos of the barriers and measurements can be found here:
http://www.aqua.co.nz/cheesecutter/

[JMemonic]

The core safety issue behind the cheesecutter barriers is not the cables as such, but the deformable steel legs holding them up. They trap limbs and act as cutting edges.

Yeap I agree as I am sure most do.


What's really needed though is a substance that provides some element of impact absorbtion whilst presenting a flat-ish surface that cars, bikes, and their riders can slide down. As in the crude drawing attached, make a long plastic container that would slot neatly over the existing barriers. Make it cover three legs at a time to provide some stability. Obviously, this would need a method of fixing it down. Easy - fill it with water. By leaving an air gap at the top of the tub and partially sealing it, there's some impact protection. The plastic deforms forcing the water up compressing the air gap. Should it be hit hard enough, then the plastic will split ... but the mere act of suddenly forcing all the water out will absorb some energy. You'd end up with all of the benefits of the wire-rope barriers, but with added impact absorbtion. In addition, with no legs to get caught up in, the danger to motorcyclists would be greatly reduced.

Mainentance would be easy. Remove a plug out of the bottom, drain the water out and two grown men could probably lift the cover off manually. Easy to replace. No fixings or tie-downs would be necessary - once filled, the system would be self-supporting.

Your principal is similar to what I suggest but there are a couple of problems I can see, firstly to install the guard you propose would the wire not need to be removed, the covers installed then the wire replaced, this would add to the instillation and maintenance costs, should for some reason a cover in amongst say 50 of the barriers become damaged one would have to deal with the wires for all 50 then retension the whole assembly. Secondly water is a great idea but it has a couple of problems, if you are relying in the water for impact absorption and it leaks or evaporates then you have lost a good percentage of your designed safety, plus it will stagnate and become a vector for potentially harmful insects, this will make MAF a tad unhappy.

I think we are along the right track in thinking of solutions, especially if they can be made in NZ, I seem to recollect that the manufacture of these barriers won a design award from the Govt, although how I don't know as this system has been in use overseas for years.

[Riff Raff]

Just heard on the news that a truck has gone through the barrier at Papakura into oncoming traffic going the other way, causing carnage. So they're not safe for trucks and not safe for motorcyclists. Hello?

[sAsLEX]

Yeap I agree as I am sure most do.



Your principal is similar to what I suggest but there are a couple of problems I can see, firstly to install the guard you propose would the wire not need to be removed, the covers installed then the wire replaced, this would add to the instillation and maintenance costs, should for some reason a cover in amongst say 50 of the barriers become damaged one would have to deal with the wires for all 50 then retension the whole assembly. Secondly water is a great idea but it has a couple of problems, if you are relying in the water for impact absorption and it leaks or evaporates then you have lost a good percentage of your designed safety, plus it will stagnate and become a vector for potentially harmful insects, this will make MAF a tad unhappy.

I think we are along the right track in thinking of solutions, especially if they can be made in NZ, I seem to recollect that the manufacture of these barriers won a design award from the Govt, although how I don't know as this system has been in use overseas for years.

I think you misread his solution.

It would be a U upside down shaped section that fitted over the entire wire-rope and waratah system ( or an n shaped section I guess?). Like sticking a bucket over a watermelon..... terrible analogy but!?

So all that would be required is the plastic section being placed over the wire and then filling with water, simple and effective.

[HDTboy]

I've just sent the following email to Michael Laws of Radio Live

Good Morning Michael,

I'm writing to you this morning, to bring to your attention the death of a 21 year old motorcyclist in the early hours of Saturday morning. While it is early days yet, and the SCU report is not out. It appears that his death was in a large part due to his body being cut to pieces by the wire rope median barriers which have been so favoured by our roading authority for the last ten to fifteen years.

I've never written to you, or rang your show before, but I do enjoy listening to it. Your views align woth mine on a lot of subjects. I would like you to consider covering the topic of the legality of these barriers and their installation along an increasing number of New Zealand's roading network. I believe they are banned in some European countries, and installed correctly in others. A group of concerned motorcyclists have done a lot of searching for information on the subject, and compiled it http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=59344 there. The notification of said crash can be found http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=59302 there.

While us motorcyclists recognise that we are a minority, and that we do take our lives into our own hands, we also hate seeing our own government being indifferent with our lives. I enjoy living, motorcycling is a part of my life, but I have a lot more to live for.

Your consideration of covering Dan's death would be much appreciated.
Gavin Brindle
HDTboy on the Kiwibiker forums

[sels1]

Some how refering to these things as 'cheese cutters 'sounds a little innocuous. Perhaps calling them what they are - body slicers - may help get our message across.

[limbimtimwim]

Foreword
The intent of this Standard is to provide a framework that unites the many parties
involved in the provision of road safety barrier systems and crash attenuators, so that the
completed installations provide acceptable performance to the community of road users
over the length of time the barrier systems are expected to operate.
The function of these devices is to improve road safety by reducing the consequences of
crashes. However, it should be recognized that these devices are themselves a hazard; they
have the potential to cause serious injuries. The intention of this Standard is that these
devices are only installed at locations where the risk with the device installed is
significantly less than the risk without the device.

The duty of care to be exercised is emphasized. The community of road users includes
people in a variety of vehicles which vary in size, mass and methods of propulsion. What
should be noted is that the users of these vehicles have different levels of protection,
especially pedal cyclists and motorcyclists. The community of road users also includes
pedestrians and those involved in the various construction, operational and maintenance
activities that occur within the road reserve. At some sites, the community of road users
should be extended to include those whose activities require them to abut the road
reserve.

Italics added by me. You could read this as nearly any cheese cutter installation doesn't comply with the intent of the standard.

I am trying to obtain copy this standard, however it is expensive. I might be able to borrow it.

[ceebie13]

I've just gone down to Douglas Bader Drive in Manukau (the approach road to the airport) where two stretches of cheese-cutters were installed some time late last year.

Douglas Bader Drive?...Cheesecutter wires?...Now there's an irony considering Douglas Bader's physical condition for the most part of his life.

[Riff Raff]

Today's article in the Herald regarding protest plans.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10471487

[Swoop]

Instead get those wires wrapped in plastic and have them replaced with recycled sleepyhead inner-sprung mattresses at a later date - as tax allows.
That sounds like the solution that NZ will adopt. The cheapest option available... (as always).

Cullen and Klerke have to save those tax dollars for vote-buying at the next election, NOT wasting them on something trivial as road safety.:mad:

[Usarka]

Just heard on the news that a truck has gone through the barrier at Papakura into oncoming traffic going the other way, causing carnage. So they're not safe for trucks and not safe for motorcyclists. Hello?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10471503

Here's hoping that this issue might get a bit more support now that it isn't just us bad bikers being affected......

[Brett]

Well Mr Transit...they stop cars & trucks...casrs maybe...trucks? - Yeah Right.

FYI for those that dont know...a rubbish truck went over the barrier into oncoming traffic this morning not far from where Dan was killed. Fuel to our fire.

[ManDownUnder]

I think you missed something. His post contributed nothing to the thread other than a likelihood that it would inflame others. He could have given some justification why the barriers should stay. Though from a bikers perspective I can't think of any positive reasons why they should stay.

If this had happened to the son of a high profile person it's likely something would change, and quickly, and you wouldn't be getting Transit NZ coming out with such an insensitive response either probably. They'd probably say they'd commissioned some investigation and study into possible changes and improvements.

The argument for a lack of change due to cost vs. probability is just crap. There are numerous examples of change that have come about because of rare events where someone gets hurt or killed, and something is done about it, and pronto.

Respectfully disagree.

His post simply raised the fact there are other points of view and I for one would like to know what they are so I can take them into consideration when making up my own mind about this. I don't know it all - I don't pretend to and I'm sure as hell not going to shut down anyone that's able to teach me something.

So he didn't say anything... probably a good move too. KB has this wonderful tendency to kick the crap out of people before they've finished their sentence. And to dare (p/t) to disagree with the majority on such a sensitive issue is bound to boost the passions involved.

So he stood up, said he disagreed but wouldn't get in the way of what he called the majority is not a bad way of dealing with it. I'd still love to hear his side of the story but not hearing it isn't going to kill me.

[Badjelly]

Someone posted a short message saying (paraphrase) "I disagree with what you're saying, but to avoid diverting the discussion, I won't explain my reasons". The result is predictable: discussion diverted into pros and cons of this message. Hmmm.

Until he wants to say what he thinks and why, let's ignore him.

[digsaw]

Trucks??:argh: no friggin way going by the news this mornin:crazy:

[imdying]

I don't know anything about cheese cutters... I've seen them, and thought to myself, 'that'd hurt to hit'.

Are they keeping cars from coliding? Many cars? Are they cost effective compared to the alternatives (armco?).

Are we having this conversation because;
- Someone fell off as a result of external factors, and died when they hit one,
- Or because someone was using the road unsuitably (wheelies, speed, whatever) and died as a result of losing control and hitting one?

It matters because it changes the justification for getting rid of them. Sure falling off when it's not your fault and hitting one resulting in death would suck arse in a big way, but if they're saving the lives of other motorists (yes, even cars) in reasonable numbers, then that must be offset against a small(?) number of motorcyclists dying on them as a result of their own actions. Sure that seems a bit utilitarianist, but what is the greater good?

Do we have any facts to make a decision against? What happened? How many lives have they saved? What do they cost? What are the alternatives?

/edit: grammar!!

[bert_is_evil]

It matters because it changes the justification for getting rid of them. Sure falling off when it's not your fault and hitting one resulting in death would suck arse in a big way, but if they're saving the lives of other motorists (yes, even cars) in reasonable numbers, then that must be offset against a small(?) number of motorcyclists dying on them as a result of their own actions. Sure that seems a bit utilitarianist, but what is the greater good?


What you're saying would make sense if it were a case of we can either have cheesecutters or nothing at all, however that's not the situation - there are safer options that cost a bit more so the decision to make is "do we spend more and save drivers and riders lives, or save money and just save drivers lives"

[imdying]

As part of living in a small backwater country, I accept we don't have endless dollars to spend. We could always spend more, better seal, better signage, etc etc

[Ixion]

Developments. Just had a call from Radio Live (? I think ? Some radio show) , fronted by Bill Ralston, wanting a phone interview at 4pm today.

For the record my present position is

BRONZ and responsible motorcyclists do not support aggressive or disruptive protest. However motorcyclists are angry and concerned about Transit's indifference to the danger that the cheesecutters pose ,and some form of visble protest is inevitable

If the wire barriers are to be used they must be made safer by some form of sheathing.

Any decision to install wire barriers should explicitly factor the increased danger to motorcyclists into the cost benefit calculation , and recognise the increasing numbers of motorcycles on the roads (at present I think the increased danger to motorcycles is ignored).

Transit need to enter into dialogue with the motorcycling community and stop denying the problem exists.

Speed is an irrelevant argument since the barriers are potentially lethal at 100kph.

Wire barriers should ALWAYS be used with the optimal set backs, as called for by Transit's own standards .


(Query ? Should we argue that wire barriers should NOT be used in 100kph areas ? )

Road safety initiatives that increase safety for some road users at the expense of increased danger for other road users are not acceptable. Human lives are not a negotiable currency.


Watch this space

[MSTRS]

As part of living in a small backwater country, I accept we don't have endless dollars to spend. We could always spend more, better seal, better signage, etc etc

Yes indeed. But this attitude seems to be accepting of the proven fact that if a motorcyclist hits one of these vile things, it is guaranteed that s/he will lose limbs at a minimum. There are alternatives or a 'fix' for the wire system that give motorcyclists a better chance of survival. Wouldn't you like to see something that works for all motorists??

[Krayy]

I don't know anything about cheese cutters... I've seen them, and thought to myself, 'that'd hurt to hit'.
*snip*
I had the same feeling go over the bridge the other day in the outside lane of the southbound clip on, and realised that if I got blown seawards, my bum was about 10cms below the height of the rail and I'd probably go for a 150m high-dive :pinch:

The inner lane barriers are just as bad height wise, as I'm sure you'd flip over the concrete barrier, or do real damage on the steel fence where th main bridge meets the clip ons.

[vifferman]

As part of living in a small backwater country, I accept we don't have endless dollars to spend. We could always spend more, better seal, better signage, etc etc
You seem to be forgetting that for YEARS we've contributed a vastly larger amount in road user charges than has ever been spent on sensible engineering. The money WAS and is available - it just keeps getting diverted to other projects, like funding the professionally idle, pay rises for uncivil servants and the like.

[imdying]

There are alternatives or a 'fix' for the wire system that give motorcyclists a better chance of survival. Wouldn't you like to see something that works for all motorists??Yeah, what's the deal with these plastic covers??

[MSTRS]

Yeah, what's the deal with these plastic covers??

Retrofitted in other countries that use the cheesecutters. Those countries (along with the ones that have/are removing this system) at least acknowledge that motorcyclists are important too.

[discotex]

Developments. Just had a call from Radio Live (? I think ? Some radio show) , fronted by Bill Ralston, wanting a phone interview at 4pm today.


Great stuff Ixion. Seems some momentum is building!

I think we need to make it clear we're not asking for the removal of barriers as this seems to be the message some car drivers are hearing.

We're asking for retrofitting or replacement to make them safe for everyone.

I also think it's critical to defuse the speed issue. If you can make it clear a puncture or other mechanical failure at completely legal speed would cause the same result (as shown overseas).

If you have time prepare some concise sound bites that punch the message home as they may repeat them in the hourly news stories.

[JKWNZ]

Its easy to forget Transit have used cheese cutters in areas there is no risk of head on i.e. on the outside of corners, SH1 north of Rangiriri. And before I get the "there is a reason" response, theres nothing much but grass on the other side...

[Dodger]

OK,

I just had a chat with a few guys in our roading team here at work. (I work in IT for a Civil and Electrical consultancy company)

- Maintenance costs for the Wire barriers are much lower than that of the metal W barriers as it only takes a few guys to go out and replace parts after an impact. Unlike the W barriers that need large parts replaced after a collision (if they even have the parts in stock)

- They will stop vehicles in size up to "American pick-up" size.

Does anyone have a link with info on the "motoguard" pipe thingi as the person I spoke to wasn't aware of it and would like to investigate.

[Sanx]

OK,

I just had a chat with a few guys in our roading team here at work. (I work in IT for a Civil and Electrical consultancy company)

- Maintenance costs for the Wire barriers are much lower than that of the metal W barriers as it only takes a few guys to go out and replace parts after an impact. Unlike the W barriers that need large parts replaced after a collision (if they even have the parts in stock)

- They will stop vehicles in size up to "American pick-up" size.

Does anyone have a link with info on the "motoguard" pipe thingi as the person I spoke to wasn't aware of it and would like to investigate.

Any chance you could ask them what the differences in maintenance costs are with solid concrete barriers?

[Dodger]

Any chance you could ask them what the differences in maintenance costs are with solid concrete barriers?

I did talk about this, and got the impression that concrete had much lower maintenance costs, but want as practical.
Needs more room, costs more to install, cant be lowered to allow traffic to drive over etc.

[Indiana_Jones]

what about the costs of covering up the cheese cutters with some sort of sheef?

-Indy

[Pixie]

The ones they added just North of Meremere turned the road into a killing zone with narrow lanes and no escape routes, was fantastic when tractors use the road which they used to avoid as they would be driving along the verge, now they are in the centre and cause havoc!


And why do we need barriers on the left hand edge of the road and relatively

The barriers to the left of the lane are there because it was feared that considerate slow drivers would drive on the shoulder,allowing other traffic to pass.
This does happen, as can be seen where passing lanes on high way 2 maramarua have been painted over,slow drivers drive on the painted shoulder formerly the left lane.

[Krayy]

what about the costs of covering up the cheese cutters with some sort of sheef?

-Indy
Doesn't matter as there is no cash left after building the Motorway Bus Lanes for PRIVATE bus companies to drive on :Pokey:

[MSTRS]

You are surely kidding Pixie? So the 'orderly flow of traffic' is now officially dictated by the slowest vehicle on the road?

[vifferman]

Doesn't matter as there is no cash left after building the Motorway Bus Lanes for PRIVATE bus companies to drive on :Pokey:
...and profit from, at the taxpayers' expense.

[Pixie]

So if there is supposed ta be 3m space between the lane and the "Biker Cutters", why is there so many of these dam things right next to the lane (Puhoi-Waiwera and the NEW Hamilton-Auckland Expressway)? I know the Puhoi-Waiwera ones are temporary, but it is a single lane carriageway which often puts me in a position as a biker where I am with in arm reach of these deadly barriers.

The three metre space is obviously to allow for the fact that a car or truck will intrude up to three metres into the oncoming lane if it collides with the barrier.
If Transit are installing these barriers as single runs between opposing lanes ,then they will not prevent head on collisions

[Unit]

I think a well organised protest ride is a great idea and I would make every effort to attend and support the cause.
I would like to think that everyone who attends are people that should be there, and are genuine motorcyclists who constantly promote safe riding and care about their fellow bikers.
As tax payers, we pay a much higher premium in our rego's for RUC and ACC. That being the case, we have a right to protest against such a lethal piece of equipment being used.
I travel from Tauranga to Whangarei about every three weeks. There is a strip of these 'cheese-cutter' barriers on the way (Im sure those that do the coro loop know which one Im talking about). Every time I travel through there (often at night), it sincerely gives me the shudders. Yes its a straight bit of road, yes there are double lanes either side, but what I often notice is this gives cause for most motorist to speed up, not slow down, and that concerns me. There cars may nicely bounce off them, but if I get caught up in the moment of testosterone, I know I will be the one that comes off worst as an innocent motorist yet I might get the blame being the motorcyclist?
Dont know and only an opinion. As I do over some 20,000kms each year, I feel I am entitled to a voice, or show up as part of a contingent of riders who what to be heard.
This is a most serious matter, and not to loose sight of the most unfortunate event that brought these threads on.
Thank you to all those people working so hard to have our voice heard in the correct way it should be.

[Grinner]

IMO lane seperation is a good thing. How you achieve it is the question ?
A nice wide grass verge would be the prefered choice then concrete barriers ( easiest to slide along ) and armco ( you still hit the support posts ) last.
Wire rope should be an obvious no no except under the utmost space constaints ie just north of Wellington.

[limbimtimwim]

Wire rope should be an obvious no no except under the utmost space constaints ie just north of Wellington.No, not there! Those should be concrete barriers.

[Unit]

Sorry folks just a random thought.
Look at the massive support the Westpac helicopter attracts from motorcyclists and the media coverage that got? Is there any way the two could be linked? Im sure the Ambulance staff have something to say about this topic. And perhaps we could also look at the value of the whole road bike industry, the type of people that ride (Im always talking to hard working, good folks out on rides). We spend a great deal of money each year on bike equipment. There was a recent thread about how much KBers spent I think it was for September? Perhaps some information could be gleaned off that thread also.
If there is any research that needs to be done Im sure there are many of us who will stick there hand up to help, me for one.

[sunhuntin]

I don't know anything about cheese cutters... I've seen them, and thought to myself, 'that'd hurt to hit'.

Are they keeping cars from coliding? Many cars? Are they cost effective compared to the alternatives (armco?).

Are we having this conversation because;
- Someone fell off as a result of external factors, and died when they hit one,
- Or because someone was using the road unsuitably (wheelies, speed, whatever) and died as a result of losing control and hitting one?

It matters because it changes the justification for getting rid of them. Sure falling off when it's not your fault and hitting one resulting in death would suck arse in a big way, but if they're saving the lives of other motorists (yes, even cars) in reasonable numbers, then that must be offset against a small(?) number of motorcyclists dying on them as a result of their own actions. Sure that seems a bit utilitarianist, but what is the greater good?

Do we have any facts to make a decision against? What happened? How many lives have they saved? What do they cost? What are the alternatives?

/edit: grammar!!

it doesnt matter the reason someone hitting and being killed by a cheese cutter. one death, no matter the cause, is too many. i do not place the value of a cagers life any higher than yours or mine.
you cannot place a value on a life, no matter whos it is. the wealthy are not worth more than we are, and the poor are not worth less.

btw, whoever emailed michael laws... dont hold your breath for any support or anything from him... hes more interested in pursuing his own agenda right now and making sure only he benefits. :girlfight:

[Pixie]

Perhaps a 'hikoi by bike' to Parliament would work?
Bikoi of the Bothered

[riffer]

it doesnt matter the reason someone hitting and being killed by a cheese cutter. one death, no matter the cause, is too many. i do not place the value of a cagers life any higher than yours or mine.


Exactly. Despite IdleIdolIdyll's protestations, the penalty for speeding is not yet death.

[Mr Merde]

Exactly. Despite IdleIdolIdyll's protestations, the penalty for speeding is not yet death.


I never remember the above mentioned person ever advocating the said penalty. I know you disagree with this person but please dont attribute such to him just for the sake of it.

[Ixion]

Further development.

I have been contacted by a Ms Vivienne Keohane, who is a North Shore City Councillor.

I have spoken with her. She has had reservations about these barriers for some time. She has tried to raise these concerns at Traffinz (what that ?) conferences in the past and been stifled with the response that "a concrete barrier would be just as bad".

She is supportive ,and willing to help. Anyone on the North Shore, it would be no bad thing to contact her and cement the relationship . keohane@slingshot.co.nz ; 09 444 7694. Contact details are a matter of public record (on her website) , and I cleared publication with her.

This "concrete barrier is just as bad " keeps coming up. I know it's false, but I've not put it to the test. Has anyone actually had experience of hitting a concrete barrier ? or any other sort? So they can give a first hand statement.

Also , she asked (and this also keeps coming up) , have there been other injuries (or deaths?) as a result of hitting the barriers. Has anyone hit them (on a bike, obviously) and lived to tell the tale ? (In NZ - I know there are cases overseas)

[Biohazard]

what about the costs of covering up the cheese cutters with some sort of sheef?

-Indy

I believe this is what they did in the UK to the wire barriers on the central reservations. They used plastic sheaf’s to take the “edge” out of the impact and transfer the impact rather then being a hazard as they clearly are….

They scared the hell out of me then and still do.

[James Deuce]

Whinge all you want. The correct response to any query from a motorcyclist to any arm of Government is: "Motorcyclists are 14 times more likely to be involved in an accident."

You ride a motorcycle, it's your fault if anything happens because you tacitly accepted the 14 times greater risk of an accident the moment you donned your helmet.

In other words: "They" don't care.

There's not enough motorcyclists to be concerned about votes, and there is no way in hell you can herd motorcyclists into becoming a unified voting bloc, given the ridiculous accent placed on individual "rights" by motorcyclists, as evidenced by the very title of the "national" organisation representing motorcycling in NZ.

To make "Them" care you have to make yourselves a threat. If becoming that threat means voting Green at the next election, both Constituent MP and List MP, because the Greens support the cladding of cheesecutter wire rope barriers, then you ALL have to vote Green, irrespective of any other policies you don't like. All of you. Not 30%, not 35%. All of you.

I can't see that happening, can you?

Having a hissy fit right now is all well and good, but it needs to be backed by solid, ideologically based organisation that may mean putting your own political preferences to one side over one solitary issue. Members of societies that value political freedom would have no difficulty with that concept.

[MSTRS]

Good stuff Ixion. Not being subject to any frequent exposure to these abortions cos there are none in HB, is there anything I can say directly to this sort of person that could help?

[Pixie]

As part of living in a small backwater country, I accept we don't have endless dollars to spend. We could always spend more, better seal, better signage, etc etc

If only NZ had a budget surplus to spend on these things

[sunhuntin]

No, not there! Those should be concrete barriers.

agreed... damn stupid place for them. i remember i did a night ride down that way... would have been about 9.30 and pitch black. i was crawling along that bit of road at about 50k cos i couldnt see where they were. never been so scared in all my life of coming off.

[James Deuce]

This "concrete barrier is just as bad " keeps coming up. I know it's false, but I've not put it to the test. Has anyone actually had experience of hitting a concrete barrier ? or any other sort? So they can give a first hand statement.



I hit a concrete one while travelling parallel to the barrier at 100km/hr.

A truck knocked me off by changing 3 lanes in an instant, I was thrown up and to the right of the bike and broke my wrist when I landed on my arm. I then slid into the concrete barrier and slid along it for a few metres before gently coming to rest with no injuries from hitting the barrier or sliding along it.

Does that help at all?

[MSTRS]

Jim2 - would Welly bikers unite if these bloody things began to be installed up the guts of the Takas???

[Drum]

Traffinz is the NZ local government traffic institute. A group of traffic engineers etc who work for local bodies. They organise annual conferences for the industry. Contact person is Dave Gamble.

You might also try the IPENZ Transportation Group, contact person Bruce Conaghan (who works for Manukau City Council).

I still believe the person to go to is Roly Frost, General Manager Network Operations for Transit NZ - he is the man who says what barriers can and can't be installed.

[Pixie]

You are surely kidding Pixie? So the 'orderly flow of traffic' is now officially dictated by the slowest vehicle on the road?

I believe there is an "unofficial" policy of lowering the speed limits on selected sections of highway,by just these very means.

[James Deuce]

Jim2 - would Welly bikers unite if these bloody things began to be installed up the guts of the Takas???
No. They'd do the normal, "It's not my problem", and "What's the big deal?" that they usually do.

[MSTRS]

No. They'd do the normal, "It's not my problem", and "What's the big deal?" that they usually do.

Then there truly is no hope...

[Sully60]

Further development.


This "concrete barrier is just as bad " keeps coming up. I know it's false, but I've not put it to the test. Has anyone actually had experience of hitting a concrete barrier ? or any other sort? So they can give a first hand statement.

Also , she asked (and this also keeps coming up) , have there been other injuries (or deaths?) as a result of hitting the barriers. Has anyone hit them (on a bike, obviously) and lived to tell the tale ? (In NZ - I know there are cases overseas)

I've hit a concrete barrier at speed (estimate 80-90kmh) after falling off, just a glancing blow, less than 15 degrees angle of attack, scraped helmet shoulder etc. walked away with a sore leg and a little whiplash. I don't think for a second if I'd hit a wire barrier I'd be responding to this thread.

Add me to the list of protestors, these things just have to go and no argument form so called safety experts are going to change my mind!

[Pixie]

Dear Paul
It's certainly a matter which needs urgent attention. The ghastly crash over the weekend really highlighted the issue.

I am going to try to get Transit before the Transport Select Committee to explain what action they intend to take.

I may not be successful - I will need the Labour members to vote for such an action as they have a majority on the committee.

Thanks for taking the time and letting me know your views.

Hon. Maurice Williamson

National Party MP for Pakuranga

( (04) 471 9725
* maurice.williamson@parliament.govt.nz
: www.national.org.nz


Spokesman for
Transport

Communications

Information Technology

[Dodger]

Jim2 - would Welly bikers unite if these bloody things began to be installed up the guts of the Takas???

I've heard rumours of a "realignment" and "speed limit review" for that bit of road sometime in the near future. :(

[sunhuntin]

I've heard rumours of a "realignment" and "speed limit review" for that bit of road sometime in the near future. :(

maybe the welly and surrounding crews need to jump on this before it starts. realignment will likely mean cheese cutters as well. time it with the auckland one. id come down and ride with you guys.

[bert_is_evil]

Can I suggest that someone wat is good wif words put together a letter of concern that others may use as a template to email to their member of parliament? Pixie perhaps you could post a copy of the message you sent to Maurice Williamson? If everyone here can forward it to their families and friends to send off to their local MP things should start gaining momentum on that side of things - nothing like an email campaign to get bored office workers interested.

[sunhuntin]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Community/MessageBoard/Messages.aspx?id=21155593&threadid=21155593

im girlgeorgina over there

[raster]

How about getting 2 halves of a plastic cylinder around the post, fill it with expandable foam then remove the plastic cylinder, done in about 2 minutes.
Don't need to remove any wires.

[JMemonic]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Community/MessageBoard/Messages.aspx?id=21155593&threadid=21155593

Thanks I never look at that forum, but after reading the comments decided it might be worth adding in 2 cents.

[JMemonic]

How about getting 2 halves of a plastic cylinder around the post, fill it with expandable foam then remove the plastic cylinder, done in about 2 minutes.
Don't need to remove any wires.

Now that sir is thinking, it would need to be a foam that is not absorbent but a far simpler suggestion than my own. Bling for that:niceone:

[FROSTY]

NOT--wanting to sound like the bad guy here but near as I can tell the CONCEPT of the wire rope barrier is a good one. Definitely better than concrete barriers or "shudder" armco --they stretch and give--absorbing impact as they do so --for cages anyoo
Its the EXECUTION of their desighn thats at fault.
So what can be done to improve the desighn so its danger to motorcycleists is reduced to an acceptable level? (to us)
My thoughts being to use plastic c shaped Wharatas as supports.with the curved back edge facing towards the direction of travel.
Having the wire run AROUND the supports somehow rather than through them--thus providing a smooth surface for a person hitting them at an oblique angle -or as someone else has suggested curved covers of some sort with a smooth outer surface.
Increasing the surface area of the wires by a HUGE amount so that they do not act as people slicers as well as having some sort of weave between the wires to greatly increas the surface area

[car]

Thanks I never look at that forum, but after reading the comments decided it might be worth adding in 2 cents.

I read the comments and decided that there was absolutely no point in adding two cents. In fact I found the content so depressing that I'm no longer sure that there's any point in any sort of organised protest.

However, there's always the chance that there's a silent and open-minded majority behind that vocal and closed-minded minority, so I'll make every effort to attend or participate in a lawful and non-disruptive protest -- I think we've got enough stacked against us with the "stop whining/ you deserve to die" brigade without pissing them off any more than they seem to be already. I'll also make every effort to provide floor and garage space for people traveling here, if said event is to be directed at the beehive.

[Mr Merde]

NOT--wanting to sound like the bad guy here but near as I can tell the CONCEPT of the wire rope barrier is a good one. Definitely better than concrete barriers or "shudder" armco --they stretch and give--absorbing impact as they do so --for cages anyoo
Its the EXECUTION of their desighn thats at fault.
So what can be done to improve the desighn so its danger to motorcycleists is reduced to an acceptable level? (to us)
My thoughts being to use plastic c shaped Wharatas as supports.with the curved back edge facing towards the direction of travel.
Having the wire run AROUND the supports somehow rather than through them--thus providing a smooth surface for a person hitting them at an oblique angle -or as someone else has suggested curved covers of some sort with a smooth outer surface.
Increasing the surface area of the wires by a HUGE amount so that they do not act as people slicers as well as having some sort of weave between the wires to greatly increas the surface area


Lots of good ideas but one stumbling block.

The price.

I hate these things with a vengance but if the alterations are going to raise the cost per meter of the wire then I can see TNZ just turning another blind eye.

[Hitcher]

When dealing with those in officialdom, people should be reminded that intelligent and reasoned argument is more persuasive than weight of numbers. Weight of numbers is only any use at election time.

Writing to political parties asking them what their policy is on cheese-cutter barriers and motorcyclists may be useful too, particularly if they think that there may be votes on offer.

[FROSTY]

Yea and as cynical as this sounds a DEAD biker costs THEM a lot less money wise than an injured one

[Kinje]

In my mind, the problem with these barrriers for motorcyclists appears to be sliding along and hitting the support posts or wire. I like the idea many people have suggested of some sort of plastic protection over the structure that allows a motorcyclist to slide along the side of the barrier, but allows a car to break through it and be brought to a halt without bouncing back into traffic. To be effective the cover needs to go over the wire and posts continuously so you can't get under the wire or round the posts. It needs to be built to a thickness that holds its structure when hit by a body, but deforms when hit by a heavy car.

[Pixie]

Can I suggest that someone wat is good wif words put together a letter of concern that others may use as a template to email to their member of parliament? Pixie perhaps you could post a copy of the message you sent to Maurice Williamson? If everyone here can forward it to their families and friends to send off to their local MP things should start gaining momentum on that side of things - nothing like an email campaign to get bored office workers interested.

Dear Mr Williamson
I will make this brief.
I don't trust our dead loss Labour government to even listen to motorcyclists, as we are the wrong sort of minority, I hope you can see the need to raise the issue of wire rope barriers on our roads.
We have voiced our concerns to LTNZ and Transit NZ to no avail.
Now, as predicted, we have had a horrendous fatality of a twenty year old motorcyclist on the Auckland motorway.As the victim did not collide with anything but the "cheese-cutter",it is safe to assume that it was solely responsible for his injuries.Injuries that sliding along a concrete barrier would not have afflicted.
I hope you can help.

Kind Regards


I suggest a different tactic for government MPs

[Ocean1]

The three metre space is obviously to allow for the fact that a car or truck will intrude up to three metres into the oncoming lane if it collides with the barrier.
If Transit are installing these barriers as single runs between opposing lanes ,then they will not prevent head on collisions


Don't hang me on that 3M, I've heard figures from 3M to 8M, possibly depends on design specifics and application. We need to know though, if they're being installed to other than full standards compliance that's a very useful thing to know.

I know many NZ roads aren't wide enough to simply fit central barriers with adequate separation, that’s a large part of the reason they need them in the first place. Widening roads is very expensive, but installing barriers outside of their design parameters is most definitely a not valid substitute. Anyone here a registered civil engineer? You should have cheap access to whatever standards apply no?

[Hitcher]

And when writing to officials or MPs, it's really useful to attach references or links to material that actually supports your rant or outlines a more suitable option, rather than just having a rant. Put yourself in their position -- why should they give a shit?

[Pixie]

Don't hang me on that 3M, I've heard figures from 3M to 8M, possibly depends on design specifics and application. We need to know though, if they're being installed to other than full standards compliance that's a very useful thing to know.

I know many NZ roads aren't wide enough to simply fit central barriers with adequate separation, that’s a large part of the reason they need them in the first place. Widening roads is very expensive, but installing barriers outside of their design parameters is most definitely a not valid substitute. Anyone here a registered civil engineer? You should have cheap access to whatever standards apply no?

The width argument is Transit BS.
At a guess a wire rope barrier is 150 mm wide along the barrier and 400 mm at the rope anchor points and a concrete barrier is 400 mm wide.

[imdying]

you cannot place a value on a life, no matter whos it is. the wealthy are not worth more than we are, and the poor are not worth less.I know what you're saying, but I have to disagree. Of course you can place a value on a life, if you're building roads.

I have no doubt that proper concrete roads (or ones with better grip, more run off, whatever) that don't turn into a maze of potholes in record time, would certainly save lives. I also accept that that isn't going to happen, we simply cannot afford to build such high quality roads.

The actualy price of a life isn't what's important, it's how much can we get them to spend! Sure that's a shitty way of looking at it, but it's reality... we don't have an unlimited budget to spend.

Sure they could actually spend more of the money collected for roads, on roads, but one battle at a time. We can line that one up behind getting young men to stop using the road as a race track/stunting ground eh...

[inlinefour]

Yea and as cynical as this sounds a DEAD biker costs THEM a lot less money wise than an injured one

I can definitelty vouch for that...

I've seen the result of a biker going through a farmers fence at speed. The result was not a good look. I've driven via cage past the cheese graters up north and the gave me the shits. I've also ridden the CBR past them several times and stayed as far away from them as was possible. These cheese graters are yet another example of NZ following other countries' mistakes, instead of learning from them. The only reason I can see for it, is cost.
My Uncle is a contractor for Transit and lives just down the road, I intend on asking him about these things and why they was used over other options. Might get an honest answer instead of the official word?

[discotex]

The width argument is Transit BS.
At a guess a wire rope barrier is 150 mm wide along the barrier and 400 mm at the rope anchor points and a concrete barrier is 400 mm wide.

From what I understand it's quite clear that if width is the reason they're installing a wire rope barrier it's also the reason it won't prevent a head on collision.

Having seen two cars hit these barriers with my own eyes on the Northern motorway I know they deform a long long way as they absorb the impact. The tyre marks in the grass were easily 1-2m past the line of the wire on the other side.

[James Deuce]

And when writing to officials or MPs, it's really useful to attach references or links to material that actually supports your rant or outlines a more suitable option, rather than just having a rant. Put yourself in their position -- why should they give a shit?

Did that. They called into question the validity of a report commissioned by the European Parliament. FFS.

Hence my rant earlier on. There's no point. We're not arguing with reasonable individuals.

[Ocean1]

The width argument is Transit BS.
At a guess a wire rope barrier is 150 mm wide along the barrier and 400 mm at the rope anchor points and a concrete barrier is 400 mm wide.

Not the physical width of the barrier in question, the free space between the traffic flow and said barrier. Installing barriers of any sort requires significantly more road width, and I don't see too much widening or abandonment of lanes going on when they're introduced to any given bit of road...

[Ixion]

agreed... damn stupid place for them. i remember i did a night ride down that way... would have been about 9.30 and pitch black. i was crawling along that bit of road at about 50k cos i couldnt see where they were. never been so scared in all my life of coming off.
That is another point. They are DAMN hard to see at night. Why do they not have reflectorised markings?

[Fub@r]

This "concrete barrier is just as bad " keeps coming up. I know it's false, but I've not put it to the test. Has anyone actually had experience of hitting a concrete barrier ? or any other sort? So they can give a first hand statement.


A link I posted earlier gave impact figures comparing cheese cutters and concrete. Cheese cutters were 4-5 times higher in potential impact trauma using crash test dummies. They found that using a cheese cutter that the bike would hit an upright and would catapult the rider off the bike, over the barrier and usually impacted on the road head first.

With a concrete barrier there was still a high impact figure due to concrete not being forgiving but the bike stayed upright

[Mom]

That is another point. They are DAMN hard to see at night. Why do they not have reflectorised markings?


Most worrying for me is they are now appearing on the shoulder of main country roads. Through the Dome Valley they have been installed, preventing anyone having a second option to avoid a head on collision. They are not there to prevent a vehicle dropping any great distance, I am talking a bit of a drain and some grass, and they are not reflectorised either. On a bike faced with an oncoming car, there is no other option apart from head on with the car, or take on the cheese cutter wire. Not much of a choice.

For those that dont know the Dome Valley road is a part of SH1 between Wellsford and Warkworth, and has one of the countries worst fatal crash statistics..... A true black spot.

[Phurrball]

Hi all,

Motorcycle safety interview on RadioNZ National this afternoon -

Jim Mora interviews the Chief Exec of Motorcycling NZ Paul Pavlotich (?Sp?)

While the linked MP3 file (tried and failed to upload..) is mostly on air-bag jackets for motorcyclists, a mention is made of the 'cheese cutter' barriers and the recent tragedy that befell one of our own:

In response to the question "What kind of gear would help a motorcyclist in the event of collision with say cheese cutter wire?" the response was:

"If you're referring to the accident in that happened in South Auckland...I don't imagine anything would really protect you from a high speed impact with a wire rail"

We seem to be maintaining some momentum on this issue in the media - keep up the pressure!

<a href="http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/aft/aft-20071023-1410-Motorcycle_Air_Jackets-064.mp3">The link to the podacast is here.</a>

[Ixion]

A link I posted earlier gave impact figures comparing cheese cutters and concrete. Cheese cutters were 4-5 times higher in potential impact trauma using crash test dummies. They found that using a cheese cutter that the bike would hit an upright and would catapult the rider off the bike, over the barrier and usually impacted on the road head first.

With a concrete barrier there was still a high impact figure due to concrete not being forgiving but the bike stayed upright

Yep, got those. But a lot of folk, their eyes glaze over when figures are introduced. It would be good to say "Meet X, he collided with a concrete barrier at 100kph, and walked away. A wire one would have cut him in half" . Makes it sort of personal.

[Ixion]

More developmen ts: Just had a call from the Harold. Apparently Transit have announced that they will be holding a "review" of the crash. Whatever that may mean. Told them that any response from transit was good, but I'd reserve judgement until the depth and objectivity of the review was known.

But, it's getting traction .

[Conquiztador]

There is HEAPS of info here. Factual and opinions. What next? Is there anyone who is prepared to spend/has the time to sort all this out so that it makes sense and kan be used to make our point? Then we could start with a petition that was to be signed, then taken to parliment by a big group of bikers.

Surely that would be one way to start the ball rolling?

Anyone...

[Beeza]

Harry Duynhoven (MP New Plymouth), the Minister of Transport, is a member of the New Plymouth Classic Motorcycle Club and is a motorcyclist himself. Presumably he'd be sympathetic to the cause to have these cheesecutter barriers done away with and replaced with concrete ones. It should be a very easy thing on the Auckland-Hamilton motorways, but a much harder ask on the stretch of SH1 road between Wellington and Kapiti Coast where so many car drivers have died in head-ons and where there isn't any median reserve between northbound and southbound lanes at all.

But Duynhoven's boss, Dr Cullen, is sitting on a vast surplus taken from us taxpayers which could be used to take all the necessary schweppes asap if not sooner.

[Brett]

More developmen ts: Just had a call from the Harold. Apparently Transit have announced that they will be holding a "review" of the crash. Whatever that may mean. Told them that any response from transit was good, but I'd reserve judgement until the depth and objectivity of the review was known.

But, it's getting traction .

Bloody good to hear. They are feeding BS lines at present. Look forward to your next update. I cant wait to see these things removed and will take whatever measures necessary to see that they are...and then replaced with good old concrete.

[Ixion]

Seems Transit ahve a bit of a hooley coming up.

<table><tbody><tr class="odd"><td>Road Safety Barrier Systems Workshop</td><td>Suncourt Motor Hotel and Conference Centre, Taupo</td><td>4-5 December 2007</td></tr></tbody></table>
Now, wouldn't that be an interesting location for a protest .

[limbimtimwim]

Thanks for taking the time and letting me know your views.Maurice says "Me a biker from way back" . ;)

[MSTRS]

Noted.....

[Fub@r]

Seems Transit ahve a bit of a hooley coming up.

<table><tbody><tr class="odd"><td>Road Safety Barrier Systems Workshop</td><td>Suncourt Motor Hotel and Conference Centre, Taupo</td><td>4-5 December 2007</td></tr></tbody></table>
Now, wouldn't that be an interesting location for a protest .

I'll be up for a ride to attend :)

[Usarka]

Most worrying for me is they are now appearing on the shoulder of main country roads. Through the Dome Valley they have been installed, preventing anyone having a second option to avoid a head on collision. They are not there to prevent a vehicle dropping any great distance, I am talking a bit of a drain and some grass, and they are not reflectorised either. On a bike faced with an oncoming car, there is no other option apart from head on with the car, or take on the cheese cutter wire. Not much of a choice.

For those that dont know the Dome Valley road is a part of SH1 between Wellsford and Warkworth, and has one of the countries worst fatal crash statistics..... A true black spot.

I've recently used the shoulder as an off-road escape route from what could have been a very serious accident. I'm sure many bikers have..... I'm deeply disturbed by this - what is the logic behind this?????

[sunhuntin]

I've recently used the shoulder as an off-road escape route from what could have been a very serious accident. I'm sure many bikers have..... I'm deeply disturbed by this - what is the logic behind this?????

theres also a string of it on the first north bound corner heading into *fuck, whats that name of the small village right before wangas? mind blank!*
i was heading home one night from welly [return run of the trip earlier detailed] and had moved left to let some traffic pass... or at least, that was the plan. i remembered just in time there was a string of cutters... hauled the bike back right as fast as i could then. fuckin shit... couldnt see it that time either.

all its protecting there is a nice grass run off, several meters before a farmers fence. around wangas, most of the cutters on the sides of road, protecting nothing, but preventing the use of run off areas. stupid and pointless.

id like attend that meeting in taupo, but i likely wont be able to get off work, bugger it.

[Ozzie]

Hi guys and girls, quick catch up, I would definately be keep to join what ever is planned in regards a protest, has anything been organised or suggested yet?

Ixion, did you get a reply re the distance from road to wire? Went past their today, they are really close to the road, and on an angle from the centre of the lanes to the south bound right lane. That's if I picked the spot right, going around a bridge or something.

Will send an email or two tonight, and happy to do anything else to help. Could stop in the cage and take some photo's of where I think it was if that helps.

Corey

[Grub]

Transit NZ, Road Safety Barrier Systems Workshop Suncourt Motor Hotel and Conference Centre, Taupo 4-5 December 2007. Now, wouldn't that be an interesting location for a protest .

Oh this is too good to miss. Pity that it is a Tues/Wed, I'm tempted to take some time off (or visit our Taupo facility ...lol)

This is worthy of a new event thread, http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1259851#post1259851 let's see where it takes us huh ?

[sunhuntin]

posted up on an american harley forum im on... i know we dont really want or need intl links, but figured any ammunition is good.

link is here http://groups.msn.com/ToddsHarleyPix/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=165988&all_topics=0 and if any of you sign up there, PLEASE check the "will read messages online" as opposed to the inbox, cos you WILL get flooded big time.

[ntst8]

Have been trawling the net doing a bit of research on this subject following the recent tragic events and came across the attached Transit report on a US site, couldn't see it on the Transit site.
At least it does show that the recent policy is a considered one.

[JKWNZ]

Interesting report ntst8.

It concludes there is insufficient evidence to support wire barriers present a greater risk to motorcyclists (Mulvihill & Corben, report from Monash University). So is that an absence of evidence or evidence of absence???

They're using the first as an excuse to support the latter!

Simple physics and the recent tragedy qualify it is a risk I would have thought

[swbarnett]

As part of living in a small backwater country, I accept we don't have endless dollars to spend. We could always spend more, better seal, better signage, etc etc
The issue here is not spend less and save fewer lives. It's spend less and make the road safer for one sector and more dangerous for another. This is a form of prejudice and as such is unacceptable.

[illusivemenace]

Further development.

I have been contacted by a Ms Vivienne Keohane, who is a North Shore City Councillor.

I have spoken with her. She has had reservations about these barriers for some time. She has tried to raise these concerns at Traffinz (what that ?) conferences in the past and been stifled with the response that "a concrete barrier would be just as bad".

She is supportive ,and willing to help. Anyone on the North Shore, it would be no bad thing to contact her and cement the relationship . keohane@slingshot.co.nz ; 09 444 7694. Contact details are a matter of public record (on her website) , and I cleared publication with her.

This "concrete barrier is just as bad " keeps coming up. I know it's false, but I've not put it to the test. Has anyone actually had experience of hitting a concrete barrier ? or any other sort? So they can give a first hand statement.

Also , she asked (and this also keeps coming up) , have there been other injuries (or deaths?) as a result of hitting the barriers. Has anyone hit them (on a bike, obviously) and lived to tell the tale ? (In NZ - I know there are cases overseas)

if the concreate barriers are just as bad wouldnt it be cheaper for speed way tracks to install cheese cutters for the solo bikes n side cars :blink:

[illusivemenace]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Community/MessageBoard/Messages.aspx?id=21155593&threadid=21155593

im girlgeorgina over there

aaaarrrrhhhh some people are sooo fucken ignorent

[swbarnett]

I did talk about this, and got the impression that concrete had much lower maintenance costs, but want as practical.
Needs more room, costs more to install, cant be lowered to allow traffic to drive over etc.
If wire rope barriers are installed correctly they require a 6m wide corridor. Concrete barriers aren't that wide.

[swbarnett]

IMO lane seperation is a good thing. How you achieve it is the question ?
A nice wide grass verge would be the prefered choice then concrete barriers ( easiest to slide along ) and armco ( you still hit the support posts ) last.
Wire rope should be an obvious no no except under the utmost space constaints ie just north of Wellington.
Again, wire rope barriers require a 6m corridor!

[sunhuntin]

best lane seperation i ever saw was in northern ontario. 2 lanes per direction, with one huge ditch in the middle... must have been several meters wide, and was filled with shrubs and things. bloody great idea. [nice and scenic too]

[JKWNZ]

Isn't it a little strange that in NZ its the motorcyclist who has to prove that wire barriers pose a risk?

Surely its up to Transit to prove they aren't a risk not the other way around!

[swbarnett]

The correct response to any query from a motorcyclist to any arm of Government is: "Motorcyclists are 14 times more likely to be involved in an accident."
The problem with this statement is that it assumes we are all of the same riding ability. Take away all novices and overconfident riders and this figure would be much lower.

[illusivemenace]

theres also a string of it on the first north bound corner heading into *fuck, whats that name of the small village right before wangas? mind blank!*
i was heading home one night from welly [return run of the trip earlier detailed] and had moved left to let some traffic pass... or at least, that was the plan. i remembered just in time there was a string of cutters... hauled the bike back right as fast as i could then. fuckin shit... couldnt see it that time either.

all its protecting there is a nice grass run off, several meters before a farmers fence. around wangas, most of the cutters on the sides of road, protecting nothing, but preventing the use of run off areas. stupid and pointless.

id like attend that meeting in taupo, but i likely wont be able to get off work, bugger it.

and the paraparas (sh 4) wanganui to raetahi

[limbimtimwim]

Simple physics and the recent tragedy qualify it is a risk I would have thoughtTheir own barrier standard says that more exposed edges mean more risk to pedal and motorcyclists.

That report basically says "Wait and see what happens".

Thanks for being proactive Transit, you rock.

[sAsLEX]

Did that. They called into question the validity of a report commissioned by the European Parliament. FFS.

Hence my rant earlier on. There's no point. We're not arguing with reasonable individuals.

That is funny since most NZ laws regarding vehicles require any standard, not a particular one , but just a standard to pass.

Seems to be they are dodging the issue here.

[sunhuntin]

and the paraparas (sh 4) wanganui to raetahi

you are right... ive only done that road a few times, and wasnt looking for that shit last time i went up there... will take a better look next time. [was too wet and windy last weekend to focus on anything but the road, lol.]

[Max Preload]

I wonder how Allan Kirk feels now?

He doesn't give a fuck as long as there's a problem he's sitting pretty on the gravy train - that's how 'consultants' work - if you're not part of the problem, there's plenty of money to be made in delaying the solution! We've exchanged a few heated emails since Monday - claims he was misquoted on some points and took Transit to task on the rope barriers, but still thinks they're a good idea on Centennial Highway because it's only a 70km/h zone.

Some snippets from where he was putting in lots of effort telling me he didn't care what I thought of him, whilse trying to change what I thought of him...



"That being said, I have at one point stated that I reluctantly accept the wire rope barrier on the 70kph section of Centennial Highway in Wellington since the risk the barrier poses to motorcyclists AT THAT POINT are less than the risk created by vehicles crossing the median area. That was proven in couple of years ago when a truck was prevented from going head-on too on-coming riders by that barrier.

On the other hand, there is no excuse for Transit to try to save money by installing those barriers where it is quite viable to install other types of barrier, such as on Auckland motorways. Indeed, I took a Transit official to task on that very subject at a national ACC meeting in the past month. I might add that the Transit official was completely dismissive of my concerns.

If, perhaps, you wanted to actually achieve anything by taking someone to task, perhaps you might like to have a word with the Ulysses motorcycle group who's national and local organisation recently refused to work with me to try to get Transit to remove those barriers... It wasn't their business, they said."

Sure, the wire barrier might be a lower risk than having nothing, but it's still a considerably higher risk than a concrete barrier. I'd think that truck ploughing through the wire rope pseudo-barrier on the southern motorway this morning and taking out 2 cars adequately illustrates that.

As far as I'm concerned, the guy's a total cock - a self-professed motorcycle safety expert that carefully avoids disclosing his qualifications, probably because he doesn't actually have any. If anyone has any information about his or anyone in his organisations relevant qualifications, I'd like to see it.

He even had the cheek to suggest that rope barriers are narrower than their concrete counterparts.


"If there's room for a wire barrier, there's more than enough room for a concrete one, which benefits all motorists"


I gather that you are not an engineer... The footprint of a concrete barrier is far bigger than that of a wire rope barrier.

Hello? McFly! Open your eyes and look at the majority of the length of the Auckland motorway system - you could reach out and slap the outstretched hand of another biker going the opposite direction over a concrete barrier and the movable barrier on the bridge sits on the white lines with the lanes immediately either side being fully utilised, FFS! I'm going to get some photos from overbridges and email them to him. Not that it'll do any good - in his last email he said "This communication is now closed" as if he had some veto powers. :tugger: :rofl:

If he doesn't respond with answers to my questions, I'll just fax him until he does. Hell, I'm going through Masterton before christmas - I might even pay the silly old coot a personal visit!

[sunhuntin]

the coastal welly road was 80k last time i went through there... but that was about a year ago [on bike]

[Max Preload]

the coastal welly road was 80k last time i went through there... but that was about a year ago [on bike]

Maybe they lowered the speed limit because of the presence of specific dangers. Like the wire rope barrier... :clap:

[sunhuntin]

possibly... its been a while since ive been down there. usually only go as far as levin, and then take the back road to palmy and home.

[motorbyclist]

well here's my take:

the barriers are there to prevent car accidents, and let's face it, while one or two bikers may be cut up, another 10 or 20 cagers will survive. for that reason ltnz has decided to use these barriers. BUT, there is no reason they cannot make them biker friendle

so instead of going to the extreme to have them ripped out, we should act to have a plastic sheet running along the traffic-side(s) of the barrier. i would suggest the same is done for all barriers with poles. plastic is dirt cheap, so why not? the barrier will actually give a little if a rider hits it between posts, and will still act as it should for car impact.

this way cagers, bikers and taxpayers win, without the need to rip up existing barriers

the plastic could be coloured or transparent for aesthetics, and could have up to 30mm clearance from the ground to allow for drainage where neccessary.

if LTNZ cannot see that as a solution to the problem, something is seriously wrong up there

i'm sure this has been covered somewhere in all these pages, but i gave up reading after a while

[motorbyclist]

The problem with this statement is that it assumes we are all of the same riding ability. Take away all novices and overconfident riders and this figure would be much lower.

i've always been interested in what the figures are like for bike accidents caused by bikers and bike accidents cause my cagers


and just a thought; how well would a van or SUV hit a cable barrier? on a car the cable hits around the centre of gravity, but i magine a van flipping over the barrier isn't that difficult to do! extra safety! there's a bit on sh i think going up the bombays southbound which looks like it'd send a van upside down into oncoming motorway traffic. and what about lowered cars and ferrari height cars - i don't think the pillars would do to great a job at holding the cable... lol the car would probably go under

and this man is an absolute idiot
http://stuff.co.nz/hawkesbay/4198973a23918.html

[car]

Interesting report ntst8.

It concludes there is insufficient evidence to support wire barriers present a greater risk to motorcyclists (Mulvihill & Corben, report from Monash University). So is that an absence of evidence or evidence of absence???

Probably one too many glasses of vin rouge for me tonight but...

Those percentages they quote make for pretty decoration, but conclusions drawn from so few samples have to be suspect. Finding the original reports that this report cites would be a good idea.

This paper, though older than the Mulvihill and Corben paper cited by Transit:

http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/reports/muarc210.pdf

seems to be saying that there's just not enough evidence either way. Considering the pitifully small sample sets they have to work with, that would seem to be the only conclusion they can draw. It makes some suggestions for making barriers more motorcycle friendly, too.

This earlier report:

http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/reports/atsb201.pdf

suggesting further research, including the instigation of crash-testing for motorcyclists, says a lot of interesting things, not the least of which is:


... whether or not a barrier system has a continuous surface could be expected to have a large impact on the safety performance where motorcyclists are concerned. For example, although the rigidity of concrete barriers is inherently hazardous in terms of not absorbing the force of impact, for motorcyclists, their continuous surface is preferable to the non-continuous surfaces of W-beam and wire rope systems at low impact angles. This is due to the fact that barriers with a continuous surface enable sliding and “soft” redirection of the victim and allow for greater distribution of contact forces over a large body area (Sala and Astori, 1998). Alternatively, direct victim–post interaction in the case of non-continuous barriers results in concentrated loads acting on the body, generating high flexion/extension movements of the body, high decelerations and high inertial loads (Sala and Astori, 1998). However, sharp decorative edges on concrete barriers (such as sound fence), which transform the surface into a non-continuous barrier, are not desirable in terms of motorcycle safety (Ouellet, 1982). In terms of energy absorbing properties of barrier systems, those which have the capacity to dissipate impact energy through deformation or alternate mechanisms present less of an injury risk to motorcyclists (Sala & Astori, 1998).

[Draco]

What next? Is there anyone who is prepared to spend/has the time to sort all this out ? Then we could start with a petition that was to be signed, then taken to parliment by a big group of bikers.

If you read my update post two days ago it was explained that several senior kb members would be meeting. Said meeting has just concluded. Details of petition & ride will be posted tomorrow. This is all underway. Media, politicians/officials, motorcycling organisations & all relavent authorities are being contacted to ensure the public profile of our cause does not lose momentum. Check out the site tomorrow. Help will be requested for a couple of issues, and members with relevant skills and contacts will be pm'd to ask for their assistance. After the initial ride is done, future events such as petition delivery are then next on the list. It's happening people, just be patient. As i've said before, meantime keep those emails going to MP's etc.

[Max Preload]

and this man is an absolute idiot
http://stuff.co.nz/hawkesbay/4198973a23918.html

Yeah. That'd be him, again...

[motorbyclist]

if you have the ride after mid-november when uni exams are done, or later still when everyone is on christmas break from work, more aucklanders could make it down to welligton if that's where you're having it.

[Sanx]

Talking about the distance from the road to the barrier. Douglas Bader Drive, the approach road to the Airport, had two sections of cheese-cutters installed about a year back. The distance from the barrier to the kerb is between 1m and 1.5m (the distance varies a little). Any car hits those, and they're going onto the opposite carriageway anyway.

[Fub@r]

i've always been interested in what the figures are like for bike accidents caused by bikers and bike accidents cause my cagers


From memory the ACC motorbike campaign earlier this year gave figures (from memory) that 80% of accidents involving a bike were directly caused by a cage.

[Max Preload]

From memory the ACC motorbike campaign earlier this year gave figures (from memory) that 80% of accidents involving a bike were directly caused by a cage.

Close enough - 75%. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10445028