Statistics

[The Stranger]

For the last 10yrs RRRS has been running courses at the air base - and from time to time other places.
We turn up there hoping and believing that we can make a difference. But do we?
Perhaps the cops are right and riding is the only human endevour where education puts you at a disadvantage.

Sooo to the point of this post.
Do we have any bright sparks out there that work with statistics and could design a study to see if we have made a difference to those that have attended over the years?

[Keystone19]

Should be relatively easy Noel. DO you have a database of riders who have attended the course over the past few years? If so, then a simple survey would be easy enough to design and post out. Have a think about exactly what it is you want to find out (more detailed than what you have already mentioned) then find someone to sit down with who knows what they are doing. Bound to be someone on here that can help. I am tied up until next October with my PhD and can't really take anything on atm but would have been happy to otherwise.

PM me if you get stuck as I may be able to point you in the right direction for a researcher. This kind of research may also be of interest to ACC who may be forthcoming with funding.

Good luck.

[swbarnett]

Perhaps the cops are right and riding is the only human endevour where education puts you at a disadvantage.
Where the hell do they get that idea? Do you happen to know their reasoning?

[The Stranger]

Where the hell do they get that idea? Do you happen to know their reasoning?

From the senior Police at the Safe As road safety workshops. Driver education was a prominent theme, put forward by many groups, but was strongly resisted by the Police.
Apparently with greater knowledge comes greater speed and as we all know speed kills.

[howdamnhard]

Well if it's any consolation,I avoided a collision thanks to RRRS emergency braking training.So keep up the good work.:niceone:Will be back again after I get a new bike now that I've got my full.



For the last 10yrs RRRS has been running courses at the air base - and from time to time other places.
We turn up there hoping and believing that we can make a difference. But do we?
Perhaps the cops are right and riding is the only human endevour where education puts you at a disadvantage.

Sooo to the point of this post.
Do we have any bright sparks out there that work with statistics and could design a study to see if we have made a difference to those that have attended over the years?

[justsomeguy]

Sooo to the point of this post.
Do we have any bright sparks out there that work with statistics and could design a study to see if we have made a difference to those that have attended over the years?

Why? You trying to get a medal or funding or something?

Unofficially everyone I've met who did the course (including you at the end of your first day there) have spoken nothing but the best of the BRONZ crew.

Keystone the PrettyhugeD!cx student is on the right track. First determine what you'd like to find out, which will give you some criteria that needs met, these criteria become answers to questions you'd need to draft. Well, that's what I've done in the past at Uni, take a reverse engineering perspective to generate the surveys........

[boomer]

you should talk to passrite..as there scheme that finished a year or so ago was being monitored etc...

ps.. i have a random number generator and i'm a wizz bang flash at making graphs :niceone:

[swbarnett]

From the senior Police at the Safe As road safety workshops. Driver education was a prominent theme, put forward by many groups, but was strongly resisted by the Police.
Apparently with greater knowledge comes greater speed and as we all know speed kills.
So the police want the driving/riding population dumbed down so that noone actually knows how to drive? This explains a lot...

Seriously though, my wife and I did a similar course in the early 1980s run by an ex-cop and passing the course cut short your restricted license period. The police certainly believed in education. I can't stress enough how important rider education is.

[steveb64]

From the senior Police at the Safe As road safety workshops. Driver education was a prominent theme, put forward by many groups, but was strongly resisted by the Police.
Apparently with greater knowledge comes greater speed and as we all know speed kills.

I heard similar line from LTSA - "You CAN'T train people how to do skid control or emergency braking - if you did, they'd always be wanting to try it out!"

That's why there's been something like 9 crashes in the past 4 years on ONE corner - right in front of my place. Corner is decreasing radius, with a slight crest mid corner, which drops away and tightens...

Every vehicle that's crashed, has been either a FWD, or AWD (apart from one 4x4) - and they ALL (I keep going down the drive to pick them up...) have done the same thing - let off the gas - with most hitting the brakes as well... - instead of planting foot on the gas! Some drop the back end off the edge of the road (which drops away by 3 or 4 metres) and get dragged down, then roll. Some just spin out. Some spin out, and end up in ditch on our side of road (going across oncoming traffic), and a couple have spun out, come across the road, then rolled. Luckily, there's only been one where an ambo has been required, and she only had minor injuries... but a number of cars have been writeoffs... Amazing how twisted a car body can get when it's been rolled...

At least they have put some signs up now - which has reduced the rate somewhat - only one in the past year or so... :cool:

[steveb64]

So the police want the driving/riding population dumbed down so that noone actually knows how to drive? This explains a lot...

I can't stress enough how important rider education is.

Yep. Me too. That's why I got an XT225 for the missus to blat around the paddock on, and get used to bike going slippy slidey, and other fun dirtbike type things - BEFORE I fix up her Bandit 1200... And my 7 year old is already out on a PW80 - and will be getting some training from me in how slides/skids and other fun things work in a car - before he gets out on the road... (as will my 4 year old, when he's old enough). :rolleyes:
I've already got Carol used to planting foot to get out of trouble in the cage - took a wee while to overcome the conditioning of hitting the brakes, but she's got it pretty good now.:rockon: A couple of practical examples when I've been driving helped convince her... :shit: :yes: :woohoo: :laugh:

[terbang]

From the senior Police at the Safe As road safety workshops. Driver education was a prominent theme, put forward by many groups, but was strongly resisted by the Police.
Apparently with greater knowledge comes greater speed and as we all know speed kills.
Farken unbelievable and to think I've been doing all those simulator sessions over the years to make me a worse pilot...

[steveb64]

Farken unbelievable and to think I've been doing all those simulator sessions over the years to make me a worse pilot...

Hmm - I've been wondering if CAA (?) should stop pilots from being trained in stall and/or spin recovery? Using LTSA's logic, then the pilots wouldn't put themselves into situations where they needed those skills - and the flying public would be SO much safer... :mellow:

[90s]

I heard similar line from LTSA - "You CAN'T train people how to do skid control or emergency braking - if you did, they'd always be wanting to try it out!"


This is crazy. In the UK (and other places) you can take your Advanced Drivers Licence - learning the police driving system. You can do it in a car, bike, or even soon, for cycles. All stats reliably show decreased accidents for increased skill, and this is rewarded by lowered insurance premiums. And those guys don't LOWER premiums on policy hype*, but on cold hard stats only.

*they do RAISE them when new word like 'joyrider' are pushed by the politicos though ...

Simple surveys would be interesting and would also be able to generate larger numbers of respondents. You will find it hard to make a good robust survey though that is more than a collation of information.

Another (supporting) idea Noel could be a longitudinal study. It would be most effective but quite an investment in time. During the process you could report descriptive stats, but eventually - say in 5 yrs - you would have a good data set.
For this ideall you could get a matched sample(s) of noobs / experienced riders from KB who have not taken RRRS. One group takes RRRS. Then 'follow' the progress of both groups. Information collected could be self-reported and contain info. on reported and non-reported accidents.

There would be a slight selection bias as anyone looking at KB is probably a more 'interested' rider. But the effect could be tested against by comparing a random sample of those who did not take RRRS against stats for non-KBers. (av. accident rate)

Basically it could take the form of every induction into RRRS opting people in to an annual postal survey about accidents or incidents in the previous year.
For the non-RRRS course you would have to assign another matched rider who would not take the course but who would return the survey annually too.

[R6_kid]

Any time i have had the chance to avoid and accident (i.e a close call etc) I have been able to do so, and only because of the skill i learnt at RRRS, otherwise I probably would have had many more crashes.

Rider training raises confidence, the cockiness or speeding comes from the person themselves. Yeh sure, maybe i can and do ride faster because of what i've learnt and know, but that same skillset has saved me many a time when a car driver 'didn't see me'.

How is it any different for car drivers?

[scumdog]

From the senior Police at the Safe As road safety workshops. Driver education was a prominent theme, put forward by many groups, but was strongly resisted by the Police.
Apparently with greater knowledge comes greater speed and as we all know speed kills.

Well some 'senior Police' might THINK that.:shit:

But a whole lot of us know different.:yes:

[The Stranger]

Well some 'senior Police' might THINK that.:shit:

But a whole lot of us know different.:yes:

Sorry but I do not recall the names of those in attendance. I am fairly certain the Ixion would as some of them were apparently quite well known from being quoted on traffic matters in the Herald etc.

I accept what you say about some knowing different, however, I also feel that the govt's position is really self evident i.e. what govt sanctioned or supported driver training is there in existence in NZ?

I really don't consider Defensive Driving in this category, it does not (well didn't when I did it) teach how to drive or control the car, it taught road craft.

The only one I am aware of is RRRS Otago and that is very recent and supported by ACC.

[Chickadee]

Knowing I'm better off for RRRS it would be interesting to know if everyone that attends would say the same. I'm sure the resounding evidence will be totally positively 'F*ck yeah!'

Look forward to seeing the results of the study, and YES you do make a difference. The basic handling test and learners test tells you a small amount of what you actually should know about your bike before you start your riding career. I'm glad you guys were there to share the knowledge!:2thumbsup

[Mom]

Driver education was a prominent theme, put forward by many groups, but was strongly resisted by the Police.
Apparently with greater knowledge comes greater speed and as we all know speed kills.

What a bunch of bollocks! I learned to ride the real oldfashioned way, off road, my first lesson, was braking down hill on grass at speed....remember well the feeling of sliding and loss of control, oh and the ground coming up to meet me too! I had to repeat it until I could control it. I could not begin to tell how many times out on the road, I have used what I learned about avoiding the ground coming up to meet me. I always thought the stop was what killed you.


Yep. Me too. That's why I got an XT225 for the missus to blat around the paddock on, and get used to bike going slippy slidey, and other fun dirtbike type things.

Good stuff! Dont forget the road riding stuff too though.


I've already got Carol used to planting foot to get out of trouble in the cage - took a wee while to overcome the conditioning of hitting the brakes, but she's got it pretty good now.:rockon: A couple of practical examples when I've been driving helped convince her... :shit: :yes: :woohoo: :laugh:

Meaney! I learned to drive a car that only went around corners sideways! Those lessons were invaluable.

[davereid]

Meaney! I learned to drive a car that only went around corners sideways!

I still drive a V8 ute that has the same suspension.

[Mom]

I still drive a V8 ute that has the same suspension.

Suspension??????? what is this you speak of???

My AP5 just did not do straight lines, break loose in straight lines too.....bald tyres helped of course, back then I paid $30 week for rent and $20 for petrol.....anyway back to the statistics else we will get in trouble.........Sorry Mr Strange one :hug:

[steveb64]

Snip'd


Good stuff! Dont forget the road riding stuff too though.



Meaney! I learned to drive a car that only went around corners sideways! Those lessons were invaluable.

She's already done a road riding course a few (errr 9 or 10) years ago (after we'd got back from riding around Europe - 14,000 kms in 9 weeks)... IIRC, it was a WIMA organised one (but we can't remember who actually ran it) - as well as some coaching from her brother (Sugilite) on the Rimutakas. Just that she's never had the opportunity to get out on a dirt bike, so as we needed one to chase the lad around on his PW80, and the XT was a reasonable price,.... Now I need to get something for me.:(
Plus, she IS keen to do another riding course for a refresher, with one of her mates (who's much more a learner) - so if anyone can recommend one? What's this RRRS course? What levels of skill do they cater to?

I learned to drive on metal roads - in a Hillman Imp... so sideways sort of comes natural too.:rolleyes: The trick was transitioning from RWD cars, which is all I'd ever had, to FWD or 4WD - where a foot on the gas is what'll get you back on the road after having to do the big dodge... Would have saved a few (most) of those who've gone off the road outside my place. It HAS saved the wife - though she said it was one of the hardest things she's done - hitting the gas, instead of the brakes as her instincts were telling her...

Errrm yeah, right - this was about working out a survey... sorry... got sidetracked with one of my pet peeves...

ERRK - just looked at the top of the forum and spotted some training stuff...

[Patch]

What the hell have you been listening too Noel - keep your chin up, it may be hard and you may not see the results yourself for years, if at all.

Driver training works. period.

You can never have too many skills, and this thought process that if a young person has too many skills that they will speed, drive sideways etc. bullshit. Thats just youth and exuberance. Lack of driver training and driver error causes accidents. Young and/or un-skilled drivers = accident waiting to happen - farkin dangerous.


Why would our political idiots want to up-skill people, they (people) might actually realise what fools (the idiots) really are. Typical NZ, the tall poppy syndrome is well good and alive.


Try not to get discouraged Noel - you do a top job, keep up the good work. :niceone: